Author Topic: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...  (Read 70067 times)

shelivesthedream

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2015, 02:26:02 AM »
Quote from: SwordGuy link=topic=2540.msg883734#msg883734
One of the major investment houses did a study to find out the demographics of their most successful investors:

1st place:  Dead people.
2nd place: People who invested and forgot they had done so.

Why?  Because neither group panics and sells low when the market drops.  And they don't pull out their investments to buy stupid stuff.

andy85

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2015, 07:11:37 AM »
...........Maybe you can start by browsing various passive portfolio options ..........

One of the coolest asset allocations sites i've seen. super interesting. The post contained advice for somebody, but the link is super badass.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2015, 10:54:32 AM »
...........Maybe you can start by browsing various passive portfolio options ..........

One of the coolest asset allocations sites i've seen. super interesting. The post contained advice for somebody, but the link is super badass.

Oh that is super cool!
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CowboyAndIndian

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2015, 08:39:03 AM »
Saw this on Pooperman's journal.

Dude...i know how you feel. I mentioned it in another thread about stache envy, but i said i dont have that, I have age envy. Seeing people 10 years younger thinking what-if, and seeing people 15 yrs older and wanting to fast forward time.

i feel like the process is:
1) discover mmm
2) obsess over mmm
3) murder spreadsheets for months and months and months
4) repeat steps 2-3 for many months
5) take a break from mmm
6) Your 10-20 year plan is set in place...
7) ...so now what? freakin sit and wait? it sucks!
8) come back to mmm to piddle around while you watch the calendar

I've come to the conclusion that next year my goal should be to do all the things i always talk about doing. Develop some REAL hobbies. Camping, fishing, woodworking, reading, gardening, etc. I need to develop these things to 1) pass this awful 15 waiting period til retirement, 2) actually live life, and 3) find something to retire to rather than from

But its tough. Everyday i think to myself, "self, you have a plan in place, now what?"....sounds like you are kind of there as well. Good luck!

andy85

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2015, 08:51:25 AM »
Thanks man!

Thegoblinchief

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2015, 09:10:00 AM »
Yeah, the waiting place SUCKS. Definitely gotta develop a well-rounded life within the time and budget constraints of employment long before FIRE.
If you want to just follow my urban homestead or see more pictures than I post on MMM: https://www.facebook.com/Ikillfluffybunnies/

If you want urban homesteading with the money and other personal details:
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“The greatest change we need to make is from consumption to production, even if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of us do this, there is enough for everyone. Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on the very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food and shelter.” - Bill Mollison

smalllife

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2015, 09:23:08 AM »
Posting to follow
"Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful" - William Morris

arebelspy

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2015, 02:11:18 PM »

Bookworm's encouragement/advice on someone's journal.

I will only add this bit of perspective, from my own experiences with huge life troubles (serious financial problems, marriage problems): You are going to feel so much better when you have put this burden down.

These things are completely life-consuming while you are still staring them down. I know very well that feeling of trying to navigate the one narrow little path through the problem that doesn't feel like an unthinkable sacrifice, or a shitty option, or an irresponsible one, or one that would just be too painful or too hard to come back from or destroy too much of life as you know it (comfort, traditions, relationships, etc.). Even though you know that narrow little path is really hard to stay on, and deep down you know even that path is probably asking for too much luck from the Universe to even work out, it's terrifying, and sad, to look at the extreme options in front of you, because you know they will suck. And they absolutely will suck, when you finally just do it, either because you run out of choices or you happen to have one of those moments where you just say fuck it, I'm sick of living this way, feeling this way. But then one day, it will be behind you, and you will be better and stronger because you went through it, and you will realize that you are in a much, much better place, you will realize that those things you thought were unthinkable sacrifices didn't actually bring on all the dramatic catastrophes you thought they would, and you will wish you hadn't taken so damn long to get to the other side of the shit storm!

I promise this is true.
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andy85

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2015, 02:12:51 PM »

Bookworm's encouragement/advice on someone's journal.


dude...i was seriously about to post this same damn thing. that was freaking good! pulled on the heartstrings.

Bertram

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2015, 04:59:44 PM »
This is very well put and on point.

For me the point of frugality and MMM isn't to stop spending money at all, it's to prioritize and consciously make decisions to spend money only on the things I value and that bring meaning to my life.  In my spendier days I would eat out, or order takeout, or buy clothes or whatever without regard to the value it brought to my life. Now I align spending with my priorities.  For me that's travel and activities/experiences with my son.  For you, sounds like it's exercise and martial arts.  As long as its conscious, intentional, and doesn't jeopardize your overall financial goals, I say enjoy every bit of it.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2015, 10:01:29 AM »

Spend two more minutes or so and read this post:
http://portfoliocharts.com/2015/11/17/how-safe-withdrawal-rates-work/

It shows why 100% stocks is not the optimal allocation.

The link  is a great resource. I would recommend spending much more than 2 minutes on it!!
We must thank our own Tyler for this article.

Eric

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2016, 07:03:13 PM »
Responding to some Taxation = Theft nonsense


Probing an argument is not the same as not appreciating the argument.  I think Kelsey is also right that framing an argument, especially one as attenuated as yours, is important.  Lastly, asking question to be answered, questioning the underlying basis, and providing similarly held but opposing beliefs is not being dismissive (although it can be), it is a debate.  Disagreeing and being irrational are not the same.  The civility of this debate already is exponentially higher than anywhere else on the interwebs, but it is still on the interwebs.  Rare indeed is the message board that serves as an all encompassing echo chamber of approval.

Because I can't help myself.

I think you are making quite a few presuppositions. 
1) You are empowered with rights simply by being a human being.
2) You have a moral right to use your life as you see fit.
3) Because you can provide labor, and that labor is taxed, that that tax is taking a part of your life against your will.   
4) Taxation of Income is Necessary.
5) Taxation is a Necessary Evil.
6) Income taxes are enforced using force and intimidation.

To go through these in reverse order.
Income taxes are enforced using force and intimidation.
Yes, not paying taxes can result in civil penalties and even jail time.  This is by agreement of the people in the land where you live.  Sure, it was decided a simple majority of votes cast from representatives, who were elected by a simply majority of votes cast from a gerrymandered electing population, that population making up an extreme minority of the population as a whole, but, hey, voter apathy amirite?  The point is that it has been put to a vote that the force and intimidation is agreed upon as appropriate.  Saying that "using force to enforce is wrong" is itself wrong on many levels, starting with the etymology of the words.  But You (the figurative you, I'm not attacking you personally) didn't vote for it!  You shouldn't be bound by it!  Perhaps, but I'll save that for the final point.

Taxation is a Necessary Evil.
This is an unsupported conclusion.  To pile on another example of why 100% of something can be wrong, but less than 100% of something can be great, I propose Oxygen.  I love the stuff.  Can't get enough of it--except that I can.  Because 100% pure oxygen is lethal.  But the oxygen I'm breathing now, that's the good stuff.  I'm willing to give up the pure goods for a solid hit of the dirty, because that's what I want.  What I need.  And because I want the benefits of some oxygen, it is not evil.  It is Good.  I want the benefits of some society (teaser trailer again for the end!) and I get a heck of deal by paying taxes as we have collectively agreed to.  Do I wish it was less?  Of course, I always want a deal, but I'm not finding anyone offering the product I desire--Apple Pie and Toby Keith--for a better cost.  So I'll take the good and not call it bad, because the mere existence of something that can be bad in excess does not make any amount of it bad. 

Taxation of Income is Necessary.   
*disclaimer, you (You you this time, not the figurative you) may not be making this argument, but were using it to present an example or further an argument. 
But in an abundance of caution...  No, Taxation of Income is not necessary.  It is an election, from an election (well, many elections, over time, by ourselves and those that have come before us, but you get what I'm saying).  To the opposite, we have not chosen to get rid of the taxation of Income tax, an option every election.  So we have made this choice.  Whether it is right, wrong, informed, or not, it is not necessary but instead a choice that we as a society have agreed upon.  Does that choice impede upon your rights as a human being (the suspense is killing me!).

Because you can provide labor, and that labor is taxed, that that tax is taking a part of your life against your will.
To use the verbatim language:  "I can provide labor," "Lets say I want to build up my 'stache," and "I am trading"
These are all choices.  You have the free will to not engage in any of these choices.  You knowingly enter into these choices, trading your time and toil for the known net prize at the end.  Not liking the taxation part of the deal doesn't mean that you are entering into the deal against your free will.  I don't like working out, and it takes up my time and makes me temporarily sore, but I do it for the end result. 
--To go down this rabbit hole even further, the first $10,300 of your income (just income taxes here, not payroll taxes, keep it on topic) are 100% tax free.  100%!!  That's $858.33 a month, slavery free.  Pretty nice, huh?  Also, of importance, I don't really work out.  I was just trying to impress whoever had read this far along.

You have a moral right to use your life as you see fit.
On this I suppose, on second reading, I agree.  You do have a moral right to use your life as you see fit.  It is a singular moral right, that you hold personally, that you can use your life as you see fit.  Your moral right is not the same as mine, hers, his, or ours.  If it is against your morals to do X, then you do not have to do X.  If it is against society's morals for you to do, or not do, X, and you break those morals, then society has a moral obligation to do as society sees fit.  I cannot disagree with you on a moral right, as that is an important part of what makes us who we are.  Because it is your morals, it is your right to hold those morals, and acting under your own morals is, truly, your inherent right.  But as you concede, you only get to assert that moral right consequence free only so long as you do not infringe upon the moral rights of others. 

You are empowered with rights simply by being a human being.
No.  No you are not.  You have one right, and that is the right to try and survive.  Our social constructs and communal living using our species' unique advantage of intelligence (no different than the superiority of the cheetah's speed or the tardigrades near invincibility) does not make that intelligence  come saddled with some inherent obligation of decency, respect, and deference to others.  We are still undoubtedly animals. It is only through society that we have these "inherent" rights.  And those rights do not come without strings.
 A good example of a source of inherent rights given by society is, conveniently enough, the Declaration of Independence. 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
Pretty Cool, huh?  It even lends credence to your assertion that we are endowed by our Creator with these unalienable Rights-specifically Liberty, i.e. the right to work without that work propping up society.  And I would agree with you that that is a pretty good argument.  It makes it tough for me to swallow that pill, however, when this sentence created a nation that, nearly a century later, would have to take Life and Happiness from its own Countrymen in order to enforce that All Men Are Created Equal and deserving of Liberty.   

Going further, this Declaration was born from the American Colony's frustration of Britain's policy of Taxation Without Representation.  WHAT?  We asserted our inalienable rights, implemented the philosophies of such revolutionaries as Rosseau, Locke, and Voltaire, threw off the colonial patronage of the strongest nation in the western world to rise up to become the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, Birthplace of Baseball, Rock and Roll, Back to Back World War Champs, Where were you when the world stopped turning, Fried Macaroni and Cheese, Still the only Country to put a man on the Moon, God Bless 'MERICA RED WHITE AND BLUE.... because of taxation without representation? 

The Declaration bore the Constitution.  The Constitution governs our society, but "We the People" govern the Constitution.  The Constitution included Article V, allowing for Amendments.  Article V's allowance for Amendments led to the 16th Amendment.  The 16th Amendment allows for Federal Income Taxes.

You live in a place that was born from the very thing that you are protesting against.  Let that sink in for a moment. 

Maybe it sheds some light.  Maybe I just made you angry, which wasn't the intention (this was more engaging than working).  But at the very least, I hope that it shows you that your perspective of what is rational might not jive with others perspectives of what is rational.  And that is ok.  Different positions and different perspectives are what make things great. 

It just so happens that my perspective is the right one because I'm awesome.  ;)
"Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe."  -- Einstein

Check2400

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2016, 01:40:24 PM »
Thanks Eric!

Per your Avatar-good luck this year.  I don't think my Braves have a chance of competing, so I'll be rooting for the Cubs to take the Astros to game 7 in the World Series... and will be happy for whichever team wins at that point.   

dandypandys

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2016, 06:53:13 AM »
Great thread!

forummm

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2016, 10:12:04 AM »
Topic: How do you deal with "The Grind"?

When I had more free time during the day, I would take long walks at lunch. Now I generally take my walks straight from work and spend lunch with friends.
I always take lunch.
I refuse to stay late or work on the weekends.
I disengage emotionally. I'm here to do a job, and the outcome of any particular project or meeting doesn't affect me.
I don't get involved in office politics.
I take advantage of meetings to make work friends.
I focus on my core job functions and do those. I don't volunteer for extra work.
I don't stress out (anymore) about getting excellent performance reviews. It's not nearly worth the hours and stress required to possibly be in contention for a slightly higher bonus.
When I leave the office, I'm done with it. I don't talk about work, I don't think about work, I don't complain about work. If I do talk or write about it, I can forget all about it immediately after. I was only able to make this change once I left a super-stressful job. It was almost besides the point that the new job also had a higher salary.

solon

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2016, 10:36:50 AM »
So here is my challenge to you. Go to your special place that you keep cash and get a $10 bill to keep in your wallet. Love and cherish that $10 bill. Draw a little mustache on Mr Hamilton if you want (I know it's illegal, but you are a fucking rebel.). Put that $10 in your wallet and name it. Take it out on a picnic or to the park or something and get to know it better. Meet it's parents, and go to the courthouse and have a little wedding for it. BUT DO NOT SPEND IT. Go to the store and stand in front of the thing you want a whole bunch, and pull out your new found love...and ask yourself, is this worth getting rid of Mr Hamilton? Hold on to and cherish Mr Hamilton as long as you possibly can, but next time you spend money, it has to be Mr Hamilton.

I've been holding on to a Mr. Jackson for a couple of weeks now. Every time I go into Gamestop, or I'm feeling a hankering for a late-night milkshake....I look at Mr Jackson, and I think of all the good times we have had together. Then I don't buy shit I don't need.

This rant is brought to you buy: In Cheap We Trust by Lauren Weber, which brought me to the reality that few Frugal people practice what they preach.

I've never been in love with a dude on a note before, but I think there's some real potential here.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2016, 04:04:38 PM »
Following!

2buttons

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2016, 06:19:17 PM »
Saw this on Pooperman's journal.

Dude...i know how you feel. I mentioned it in another thread about stache envy, but i said i dont have that, I have age envy. Seeing people 10 years younger thinking what-if, and seeing people 15 yrs older and wanting to fast forward time.

i feel like the process is:
1) discover mmm
2) obsess over mmm
3) murder spreadsheets for months and months and months
4) repeat steps 2-3 for many months
5) take a break from mmm
6) Your 10-20 year plan is set in place...
7) ...so now what? freakin sit and wait? it sucks!
8) come back to mmm to piddle around while you watch the calendar

I've come to the conclusion that next year my goal should be to do all the things i always talk about doing. Develop some REAL hobbies. Camping, fishing, woodworking, reading, gardening, etc. I need to develop these things to 1) pass this awful 15 waiting period til retirement, 2) actually live life, and 3) find something to retire to rather than from

But its tough. Everyday i think to myself, "self, you have a plan in place, now what?"....sounds like you are kind of there as well. Good luck!

Wow. So on point. 

lifejoy

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2016, 09:18:32 PM »
So here is my challenge to you. Go to your special place that you keep cash and get a $10 bill to keep in your wallet. Love and cherish that $10 bill. Draw a little mustache on Mr Hamilton if you want (I know it's illegal, but you are a fucking rebel.). Put that $10 in your wallet and name it. Take it out on a picnic or to the park or something and get to know it better. Meet it's parents, and go to the courthouse and have a little wedding for it. BUT DO NOT SPEND IT. Go to the store and stand in front of the thing you want a whole bunch, and pull out your new found love...and ask yourself, is this worth getting rid of Mr Hamilton? Hold on to and cherish Mr Hamilton as long as you possibly can, but next time you spend money, it has to be Mr Hamilton.

I've been holding on to a Mr. Jackson for a couple of weeks now. Every time I go into Gamestop, or I'm feeling a hankering for a late-night milkshake....I look at Mr Jackson, and I think of all the good times we have had together. Then I don't buy shit I don't need.

This rant is brought to you buy: In Cheap We Trust by Lauren Weber, which brought me to the reality that few Frugal people practice what they preach.

I've never been in love with a dude on a note before, but I think there's some real potential here.

Yeah this is a very cute and fun idea! Might even work!

APowers

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2016, 08:40:06 AM »
Advice for a 17 year old from Cyaphas

Here we GO:

Don't have children until you're at least 25.

Don't mix family/friends and money. Don't rent a house to family or friends. Don't start a small business with family/friends.

Find a career where you can comfortably save over $40k per year. Always take into account geographic cost of living, including taxes, relative to income in the areas you're looking.

Don't take on debt unless you can clearly present a net profit to you from said debt.

Try to save at least 1/2 of your paycheck. At your age you should probably just drop it into VTSAX. IRA, 401k preferably. Then FORGET about it. Don't listen to market news.

Do not buy a house until you're sure you're going to be in an area for more than 10 years. This will most likely be after you're 25. NEVER buy a house without putting a lot of thought into it. Even though you may be, try to have someone who is financially practical and competent with you through the whole process. Make sure that person has your best interests in mind.

Don't be afraid to look at craftsmen jobs, electricians, machine operators, trade unions. A lot of them are paid very well and they're not stuck in an office all day. They also don't require near as much money in schooling/qualification.

Make sure you live within short biking distance to work and the grocery store. Automobiles are expensive and the less you use/own/maintain one the quicker you can reach FI.

Think of payments in decade format not monthly. $10 per month doesn't seem like much. $1200 seems like a lot. Is Pandora worth $600 over 10 years? Is Netflix worth $1200 over 10 years? $100/month phone bill is $12,000 dollars over 10 years.

Avoid consumerism at all costs. Before you buy something, consider, do I really NEED this. There's nothing wrong with buying luxuries for yourself, but you need to know they're luxuries. Never buy anything over $40 that you haven't been considering purchasing for at least a couple of days. Did you need it yesterday? Than why must you have it today?

Eating out, try to limit yourself to once a week. Find a happy hour places that serve cheap appetizers. Split them with friends.

Create little challenges for yourself. 1 month of not eating out. $30 weekly meal plan challenge. Walk to work/school every Monday for a month. Things of that nature. Create the challenge and track it. Hold yourself accountable.

Have fun. Don't burn yourself out. Go on trips. See the world. It's not as expensive as a lot of people make it out to be. NEVER travel on debt. Save up and THEN go on the trip.

I think of debt as a form of modern slavery. Other than education and a home purchase, there aren't a lot of other good reasons to take on debt.

Rent to own, avoid it at all costs. I've never come across a financial transaction where rent to own wasn't a complete rip off.

Be thrifty, thrift stores can be a great place to find casual clothing or even business dress for a very low cost.

Try to have a few hobbies and stick to them. Collecting hobbies gets expensive.
 
If a family member asks you for financial assistance give it to them as a gift, not a loan. If it's too much to give as a gift, than you sure don't want to give it to them as a loan. Make sure you're not giving drugs to a drug addict.

Don't get discouraged when everyone else tells you you're crazy. You can do this. This can be your reality. Study your finances. Make a plan. Stick to the plan. You'll be just fine.

Insurance companies usually are a rip off. They play on your fears. Only take on insurance when you absolutely have to. They aren't in the business of losing money.

Don't be afraid to try new things. Engines aren't really that complicated. Home construction is a lot more simple than most people think. Things don't work through magic, odds are if it's broke YOU can fix it. Is it worth your time? That's for you to determine. Don't start with the premise of it being impossible for you to do. Youtube is a beautiful thing.

If something in your life is collecting dust and it isn't sentimental to you. Get rid of it. Staying stuff free is extremely liberating.

If you want to see where you're going in life, take a look at the people you spend time with. This is very important. Some people are emotionally toxic, stay the hell away from them. Learn what a manipulator is and how they work. Don't just avoid them, stay the hell away with prejudice.

Make sure you spend time in some kind of social setting on a regular basis. Ball room dancing, swing dancing, toastmasters club... Aim for a more wealthy class of individuals, they can become invaluable to you with the knowledge they have and sway they hold in the community.

If you ever wind up in a situation with the law that isn't a traffic violation or you're clearly the victim, REMAIN SILENT. If you ever wind up in a police station being questioned, ASK FOR A LAWYER and then REMAIN SILENT. The law isn't known for being kind to the young. I've seen many a persons dreams dashed early against the rocks of our legal system over something stupid and trivial.

Fall in love. Date often. Don't think that the first one is the only one or the right one. Date someone for at least a year before you even consider marrying them. Then, wait at least 8 months before the wedding. Don't ever rush into anything when it comes to relationships. Make sure your significant other is frugal and on board with staying that way.

If I missed something, I'm sure MMM has an article to cover it.

You're already way ahead of the pack. Good luck. Don't take life for granted it goes by fast.

afuera

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2016, 01:41:49 PM »
So glad I found this!  Its great to have a place to capture all the gems on this forum.
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it" - Henry David Thoreau

6/2017: INV-3.4x, NW-5.0x
Projected FIRE date: 2025
Journal.


Carless

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2016, 08:30:23 PM »
By TheGrimSqueaker on the topic of a mooching roommate.  It's just ...so beautiful...



It's not the emotion part that's killing you, though. It's the fornication donation. Forget the money and incidentals, the major thing you should not be giving is ONE SINGLE FUCK about whether the moocher in your life experiences the consequences of his own bad decision making, or what his opinion of you might be. (ETA: I'm using the word "he" as a generic here; many moochers are female. I'm also discussing just one moocher, but if you have a swarm of them, my advice applies equally to all of them.)

Seriously. Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does, and that's messed up because it's sucking you into an sharknado of codependent bullshit. You're also allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage of you. That's also crap. Worst of all, you've bought into the notion that this idiot's opinion matters somehow in the great scheme of things. Parasites are not people whose opinions matter. I mean, they do deserve the basic respect we give all human beings (as in, we don't load them into catapults and use them for skeet, and I don't use them to test the sharpness of my scythe), but you don't actually need to give them anything except a cordial "no".

If you were an utter asshole, you could abuse this guy without meaningful consequences. I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito. It's not a binary problem. You can choose to be something else.

This guy has made it clear that he sees people like you as sources of nourishment, and now that he's gotten a few sucks in he's not going to want to let go of the titty. So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.

Being called on the mooching, and cut off, is not actually new to the moocher. Nor will it hurt his feelings. He already doesn't give a fuck about you or your well-being, except to the extent that you're able to provide for him. He knows he's a human tapeworm, and he knows people don't like it because at his age he's been shat out a few times before by people who have just plain had enough. But he's committed to parasitism as a life strategy and he believes that it's right and appropriate for him specifically. This means he's never going to stop until that belief changes. You don't have the power to change that belief for him. He'll just do what every deer tick does, and go dormant until another host passes by. He's done it before. He'll do it again, and not lose a wink of sleep over how you feel.

You are going to want to pry the mooch loose, because the longer he stays the more thoroughly he becomes attached, the harder it will be to cut him loose, and the more he will extract from you in the meantime. Also, the universe assumes that people go after and keep the things that they like. If you let it go on long enough, other people will assume you're socially or financially fused somehow, or that you enjoy supporting an entourage. The longer you let this guy treat you like a giant mammary gland, the more the universe is going to notice: "hey! This person's big goal in life is to be a nipple. Let's send him more opportunities to exercise that aspect of his character."

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2016, 09:41:44 PM »
Wow. That's brilliant.

Sometimes I meet people in life and I'm like "agh I hate people" and then I come online here and am faced with the best that humanity has to offer! I love the MMM forums :) Y'all are great.

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2016, 04:08:15 PM »
Yet another couple posts from TheGrimSqueaker:

The homeless family of 7 that has been living with me since the first of July, and that will be here through the end of August, never seems to have a problem feeding itself or driving around. There's one working adult and 6 kids (well, we're down to 5 so I suppose it's now a family of 6).

Here's how they do food.

1) Get fast food for the whole fam' damly at least once a day. Make sure to go driving around in the car for at least half an hour with no clear direction, because it is Something To Do. (Taking out the trash or cleaning up after the kids would also be Something To Do, but then there wouldn't be the highly artistic pile of dirty diapers from the kid who's about to turn 4 but who isn't potty trained). It's very important to have a hundred-dollar-a-week fast food habit because that's all you've trained your kids to eat.

2) Even though healthy, real food is being provided for you, make sure to get a bunch of prepackaged, highly processed stuff every time you go for groceries. Leave the half-eaten stuff and the seeping drink containers randomly around the house, especially on top of wooden tables right next to a coaster. Make sure to avoid stepping into the kitchen or dining room when eating, because if you eat in the places that are designed to have food in them you won't be able to get that characteristic stale-food stench in the bedroom.

3) Thou Shalt Not walk to the grocery store half a mile away. That's fine for your host or hostess, but you've got More Important Things To Do because working 20 hours a week is just so strenuous.

4) When you get packaged food, open it immediately even if you've already got a jar or package of something else open. Make sure to have at least six or seven bags of "chips" open at the same time. Leave these lying around wherever it's convenient because insects are gross but you're incapable of understanding the relationship between food and insects. Besides, if the entire bag or package is spoiled, it's an excuse to throw it out and wail to your host that you need to buy more. [Edited to add: this is why it's best to pay more per unit to buy small packages.]

5) Make sure to carry food through the house no matter how many times your host or hostess asks you not to, so that it spills. Don't clean up spills because grinding your chips or your McCrap into the carpet is a vital part of your unique cultural heritage. It contributes to that homey sty-like aroma your host's house lacks, and it also guarantees that you won't have leftovers.

6) Make sure each of your kids has at least two or three foods they refuse to eat, and cater to them constantly so that they never have to compromise by trying something new or having a vegetable or fruit that isn't exactly what they want, when they want it. This will ensure that you (or, more accurately, your host or hostess because you're Too Busy) must prepare two or three meals at every sitting because somebody goes into a snit and refuses to eat the same food they demanded a week before.

7) Have a giant laundry list of different foods you "need" immediately, but don't express an interest in any of them until after they've spoiled

8) Make mouth noises about wanting fresh fruit and vegetables, but make sure that only one or two servings get used and the rest is thrown away. When you eat an apple, take just one or two bites, throw the rest out, and in a few minutes when you're hungry again, take another one.

9) Leave food in the most inappropriate possible place so that it spoils. Dairy, meat, and perishables must be left out on the kitchen counter. "Grease", or what the rest of the world knows as cooking oil, must be left in multiple pans on the stove so that it spills and stinks. Leave bottles and bags of bread open so that the air can get in. Cram empty or nearly-empty containers into the fridge instead of using smaller containers or throwing out things that spoil. [Again, here is the benefit of small packages. You're going to do your best to let the food spoil instantly anyway, so since you're only going to use things that are freshly opened and throw the rest away, why get a large container?]

10) All older children and adults must cook for themselves. Never, ever prepare a meal for the whole household because it's a mortal sin for more than one or two people to eat at a time: you can clutter up the kitchen far better if there's constantly someone in it, because that provides an excuse to never sweep or wipe up. This also ensures that there's plenty of food to be thrown away because eating leftovers might be fine for your host or hostess, but it's beneath you because you're superior.

11) If by chance you use something and put it away because your host or hostess is on your case again, make sure the lid isn't on. Lids aren't good for anything anyway: every jar of mayonnaise or bag of rice ought to be single-serve, so when you put the rice in the cabinet or the condiments in the fridge, balance them precariously so that they tip over and spill the second the door is open. You need spills in the cabinet and the fridge to booby trap your host or hostess for lulz, because they just don't appreciate you or your unique culture enough. You're also trying to train them to not be so unreasonable as to ask you to put away what you use. It's far more culturally appropriate to pile your food up on the counter.

12) Never, ever, ever finish a bag, bottle, or box of anything. Use just a couple slices of bread and leave the rest to dry out in an open bag. Take a bottle or can of processed drink, open it, take a couple of sips, and then either spill it or leave it sitting around. A few minutes later, repeat with a fresh can or bottle. If you've got two cases of, say, crackaroni, make sure to open and use at least one box out of each, so that you've got two open cases cluttering the place up. It's important to pile the clutter high so that there are several layers of everything. That will maximize spills and wastage.

In closing, this is how homeless families with large numbers of children like to cook and eat. I'd suggest that it's unique to this family, except having been in several other apartments or homes of people in this social class I've got to say that the way these folks try to live while in my home is pretty much par for the course for them. Food is free (when I'm not providing, there are food stamps) and so there's no incentive to do anything but waste. They're moving out at the end of the month, which is when I expect to hear a bunch of bitching and wailing about how the mother hasn't been able to save anything at all. She's lucky I don't give her a bill for all the stuff her kids have broken or damaged.

Why have I tolerated this? My goal was to get my daughter to value life in an organized household and to appreciate how much work goes into taking care of kids or teens. She didn't, before. Despite having been raised as an enabler, she was too willing to sacrifice her own interests even when she was pulled out of an enabling environment. That sort of thing can't be allowed in a child, but when the child learns only through experience, it's best to let them have a small taste of the experience under controlled circumstances. It took a brief voyage into Pig-istan, a couple months of her working like Cinderella, and massive destruction of her clothing and belongings before her disgust and sense of being used hit critical mass. She's within inches of developing a sense of self-worth, because her house guests are starting to treat her the same way they treat me: good enough to use, but not good enough to invite to the party. So that's why I'm allowing my daughter's couch-surfing friend and associated munchkins to do this to my home: to permanently turn my daughter off of enabling behavior along with disorderliness, chaos, waste, and bad smells. It's working.

My savings and cash reserves haven't, and neither has some of the furniture or the tub and bathroom fixtures that didn't survive the shower parkour incident. For a class of people who can't be bothered to waddle down to the grocery store, they have some unusual exercise habits. At least I hope that's what it was.

Anyway, if this experience helps prevent a lifetime of enabling behavior for my daughter because we get to the full gross-out now, I'll count us ahead. I'd rather have her completely lose her shit right now, and then compose herself and figure out what she thinks and feels really. Up to two weeks ago she "didn't mind" a whole bunch of stuff she should have minded, because of the codependent attitude she picked up early in life due to having been around too many people who would probably benefit from an icepick to the forehead. Now she minds and feels appropriate hurt and resentment. I'm mildly bummed about her experiencing hurt and resentment, but this is how you show a person what having good boundaries feels like. The alternative is to accept a reality in which she continues enabler patterns into adulthood and ends up in a codependent sharknado of a marriage with some random abusive druggie or worse.

By learning how to step away from inappropriate responsibility, she's freed herself to step up in terms of taking responsibility for things that ARE appropriate and that DO create a payoff for her. It's really brought her forward, maturity-wise.

The boundaries she's learning?
  • Her clothes are for her, not to be taken and trashed or given away without her knowledge by other people who help themselves
  • Other people are not to bring guests into her room while she is not present
  • Nobody gets to use her as a free babysitter by dumping their kids on her at the last minute
  • When she cleans up the bathroom, it's reasonable to expect it to stay clean
  • Her allowance money is for her, and not to be cadged out of her by someone who "needs" money for gas or a fast food run
  • Why we do not lend out the family vehicle
  • Her bed is for her to sleep in, not to be given over to someone else while she sleeps on the floor because that person prefers to not use the fold-out couch or room they were given
  • When she spends all her time taking over someone else's responsibilities, there are still consequences for not fulfilling her own, and the universe will not cut her any slack just because she exhausted herself chasing the monkeys in someone else's circus
  • Her electronics, furniture, and belongings are not toys for toddlers
  • Why it's a bad idea for her to try to take from me to give to somebody else
  • Why it's an even worse to let people take from her in order to give to somebody else
  • The fine art of identifying unreasonable requests and saying "no" to them
  • How to identify and survive the tantrum stage when an over-entitled adult tries to get back on the nipple
  • Why it's a bad thing to do for others what they should be doing for themselves
  • Not wanting to wake up to the smell of human feces is actually OK
  • Why a person who is not functioning as an adult has "needs" that will expand to consume and then exceed all available resources
  • Why, when she runs out of energy or resources to give, she's not going to be helped in return by the non-functional adult
  • Correct duck alignment requires that she not try to line up other people's ducks while letting hers waddle all over the place
  • Correct fuck alignment requires an awareness of what she does or doesn't actually control
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
  • How to not spend her whole life on a one-way street
  • Why taking control of what's not hers to manage will not end well or produce the results she wants, but it will sure exhaust her

... and more... much more.

One month wasn't actually enough to pull this off.

After the first month, she was still eyeballs-deep in codependent behavior and trying to dump her responsibilities onto me (preferably along with her fecund friend's responsibilities) in order to be the hero and take on even more. She truly believed that doing this would benefit the kids.

By "codependent behavior" I'm talking about a willingness to destroy her relationship with me in order to give more to her houseguests. I'm talking about siding with her houseguests, trying to get me to give them money, confronting me for asking for broken or missing belongings to be returned, yelling at me for not using a "nice" enough tone of voice when expressing a desire for food to not be tracked through the house. I'm talking about insisting that it was right and appropriate to "let" them live in a filthy and disorganized way, not having a bedtime, a wakeup time, or organized meals because "it's how they like to live", and throwing a tantrum herself when I refused to watch her houseguest's children. She also confronted me when somebody's precious feelings were hurt when I used the word "pigs" to describe their behavior after a food booby trap exploded in the pantry.

Instead of doing the boundary thing and recognizing the extent to which she was being used herself and also the extent to which she was helping the guests to abuse me, she went into full martyr mode and vowed to take all the work on herself because she "didn't mind", and that her guests "just needed until". This is not healthy behavior. This is the behavior of someone mired in codependency to the point where they truly believe that pulling someone else in is the thing to do. Helping can be just as addictive as heroin, and it was in danger of becoming my daughter's "drug" of choice.

If I'd sent the guests on their way at that point, I'd have been taking the fix away and creating the need for more, setting into motion a pattern of behavior that could have continued into my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast. Bad patterns repeat themselves unless they're broken.

So I stood back and let my daughter start experiencing negative consequences for her behavior.

Around the house, I bowed out of guest activities. I did only the work that suited me, and let my daughter take over all the work and enabling for caring for a handful of very badly socialized kids. It caught up to her pretty quickly especially when she realized her best effort still wasn't producing the results she wanted. She snapped, and did some things she probably wouldn't have done otherwise. Her frustration and feelings of being overwhelmed led to some denial, self destructive decisions, and other things that made her feel less good about herself and more criticized and set-upon by everybody. Eventually, it reached a breaking point where she verbally attacked me for not supporting her enough or appropriately. So I pointed out where the bear shit in the woods, and explained what was and was not appropriate parent behavior.

I suppose it took two full weeks of martyrdom for her to crack and realize that she did indeed mind. Now she's experiencing some of the stress and resentment, and also recognizing the extent to which she's being used. She's now asking for change, enforcing change, and complaining about her situation because she can't do the fun things she really want to do. She's also recognizing the limitations to her own power and having a strong need to stay in her own swim lane.

As a consequence of cracking, she had to take some attention away from the unrewarding, codependent bullshit and consequently had a breakthrough in an area of life where hard work and concentration IS rewarded.

A couple more weeks should sear this incident into her memory for life.

O' the houseguests: they're not being allowed to run rampant. She stepped up and took responsibility for them. Yes, I let her step in that because she didn't believe me when I told her about quicksand.

Cannot Wait!

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2016, 06:11:37 PM »
Awesomesauce.


Whelp, I didn't think I could panic anymore than Tuesday, but here we are. Hi Sailor Sam - any advice for the young and terrified queer population from a military perspective? Is it time to make a bug out bag and flee for Canada?

Hello young dwarf, welcome to the fight! Please pick up your badge, shield, and official Ankh-Morpork truncheon from Sgt Detritus.

Here's the first lesson, it's hugely important, so please remember it. You never give up the ship, and you damn sure never give up on your fucking country. Bug out bags are good common sense, but not so you can flee to Canada.

Stonewall rioted, for you. Harvey Milk died, for you. Leslie Feinberg wrote Stone Butch Blues for you. Brandon Teena and Matthew Shepard, and 49 people in a night club were martyred for you. Thousands of service members were court martieled for you. Tens of thousands fought an endless grassroots battle for your rights starting before either of us were born, refusing to give up though all the setbacks and prejudice, with no presciences to tell them victory waited for them in 2011 and 2013.

My advice is to never forget the ocean of grit and determination that backs your current freedoms. Never forget the ocean of blood. Never decide it's too hard, or too scary, or just too much to keep fighting to preserve those freedoms. But certainly, you must be smart. Let's add your name to the living resistance, and not the honourable dead.

1. Please take a self-defense class, to keep your corpus safe
2. Make friends you can talk to, to keep your mind safe
3. Make friends with people who don't have any gay friends. Show them your ordinariness, and gently change one mind at a time
4. Volunteer in your gay community, to keep our youngest safe and stable
6. Volunteer for other worthy causes, to build strong communities that don't sink into hate
7. Remember that some people are orcs, and simply cannot be saved. Don't let them pull you down into hatred. God will sort them out.
7. Build situational awareness, so you know when to be visible, and when to be incognito
8. Read How Long Has This Been Going On, and The Band Played On, so you deeply understand your own history. For that matter, read Stone Butch Blues
9. Never. Give. Up.
[/quote]
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frugalnacho

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2016, 02:25:25 PM »
following

KCalla

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2016, 03:09:20 PM »
following.  Great Thread

englishteacheralex

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2016, 03:52:29 PM »
following
I journal at https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-aloha-journal/msg1267277/#msg1267277

Tales of a haole teacher whose futon washed up on Oahu over a decade ago.

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2016, 11:20:46 AM »
Yet another couple posts from TheGrimSqueaker:
  I know it's November, and you posted that in August, but that is the best thing I have ever read on this web site.  Thank you for posting it.

For others reading, there is more, and the context (some of the posts are answering questions from other posters) makes it worth clicking on the link and reading it in the thread.

arebelspy

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2016, 04:57:46 AM »
Two things:
1) This "Reasons Not to Invest" poster, posted here by Mighty-Dollar.

2) This clear explanation of why going for total return is better than chasing dividend stocks, posted here by Interest Compound:
The Dividend vs Total Return argument has been beaten to death on these forums. Total Return won.

Dividends are mathematically equivalent to selling stock, before you factor in taxes. After you factor in taxes, dividends are much less efficient:



If you are limiting your portfolio to only dividend payers, you're adding risk, for no expected reward, resulting in a less efficient risk-adjusted portfolio.

If you want a monthly paycheck from your investments, login to Vanguard, and tell them to send a monthly paycheck from your investments:


We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
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NUF

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2016, 10:19:28 AM »
Posting to follow

DaMa

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2016, 07:01:37 PM »
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meerkat

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2016, 07:52:49 AM »
It's still early in the day for me to call this the best post I've seen today, but Kitsune made an excellent post on the mindset of artsy types when it comes to money and saving for retirement.
meer journal for a meerkat

Will this matter in ten years?

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2016, 10:25:57 AM »
This is a great thread, keep them coming.

The best post I saw today was in this thread ;)
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chardog

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2016, 07:01:56 PM »
Okay its not MMM. But this is seriously the most MMM rap video I have ever seen. You will love it
https://youtu.be/yvHYWD29ZNY?t=49s

ROFLMAO kind of stuff. Best of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJXPUZ98Bw
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frugalnacho

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2016, 05:29:33 AM »
Okay its not MMM. But this is seriously the most MMM rap video I have ever seen. You will love it
https://youtu.be/yvHYWD29ZNY?t=49s

ROFLMAO kind of stuff. Best of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJXPUZ98Bw

haha these are fucking great.

EDIT:

I especially love the comments on the second video:

"film this on a potato?"

"he bought a few more shares of VTSAX instead of that fancy camera bro"
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 05:32:32 AM by frugalnacho »

Linda_Norway

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2016, 05:58:10 AM »
Nice thread. Posting to get it in my list. I'll follow up if I read something great.

LateToTheParty

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2016, 06:15:48 AM »
This cracked me up in the "kitchen disasters" thread.

I had some success using zucchini in cookies (kind of like zucchini bread). Inspired by that, I thought surely I could do the same with okra from the garden. Cookies went into the oven. Cookies came out of the oven, warm. Cookies cooled down, and tasted - ummm, a bit okra-y. Then, inexplicably, the cookies began warming up again. By the next morning, the okrosity had intensified and the tupperware they were in was hot to the touch. My husband still refers to them as the thermonuclear cookies. My mother suggested okra cookies were such a bad idea that they decided on their own to just begin the composting process immediately.
I arrived late to the party, but am a quick study.

Mother Fussbudget

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2016, 12:06:04 PM »
This...
"John Rogers, lead portfolio manager for the $2 billion Ariel Fund, believes that there is a growing bubble in the market indices ..."
"Active portfolio managers may be wise at this point to start accumulating cash that they can use to buy back into the markets if Roger’s prediction is correct and the bubble does indeed burst ..."

And yet John Rogers has the Ariel fund 99% invested in mid- and small-cap value stocks.  Not cash.
http://portfolios.morningstar.com/fund/summary?t=ARGFX&region=usa&culture=en-US
In other words:
"Be so afraid of the market and sell me your small and mid cap value stocks, because I'm buying them."
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 12:07:41 PM by Mother Fussbudget »



Le Barbu

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2016, 06:16:35 PM »
Following
"The real reason this blog exists, is simply to save the entire human race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its own habitat"

-MMM

Dicey

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2016, 09:04:37 PM »
Okay its not MMM. But this is seriously the most MMM rap video I have ever seen. You will love it
https://youtu.be/yvHYWD29ZNY?t=49s

ROFLMAO kind of stuff. Best of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJXPUZ98Bw

haha these are fucking great.

EDIT:

I especially love the comments on the second video:

"film this on a potato?"

"he bought a few more shares of VTSAX instead of that fancy camera bro"
This is currently on another thread (the second one). The total views are only 12,609. It deserves better. Please pass it on, it's awesome.
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Half-Borg

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2016, 02:04:05 PM »
The forum needs a way to follow without posting...

Cannot Wait!

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2016, 07:38:45 PM »
You could click 'notify' and get email notification until you post.
806228541398102 is my referral code for Questrade and 48650126S1 for Tangerine.  Hey, why not?

johnny847

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2016, 05:16:15 PM »
You could click 'notify' and get email notification until you post.

Some of us hate getting email notifications. I do. I get enough email notifications as it is. Logging in occasionally and checking new replies to my posts works much better for me.

dryer

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2016, 12:23:49 PM »
following
I'm a licensed CPA working in real estate, like many others on here. And just like those many others, all my "advice" is just a suggestion and research should be done before taking any of it.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2016, 07:19:42 AM »
One thing I found sad after the election is forum members here (specifically ones who were devastated by Trump's election) being intolerant of others who didn't mourn the exact same way they did.

If we didn't immediately react the same way--if a certain comforting article spoke to us, but didn't resonate with them; if the words we used, or the explanations we told ourselves wasn't to their liking--we were told off. We were put down, or told we could never understand because of inherent traits we had, or didn't have, or even berated.

I try to tell myself the same thing I wish they had been telling themselves: they just grieve differently.  They are lashing out due to being scared, due to being sad.  But still, lashing out at those who agree with you, those who are already in pain themselves... it hurt.  Especially when coming here looking for like-minded people to commiserate with, finding some, and then having them turn around and lash out.  MMM forums should be a safe space; I still don't feel safe being myself or being honest in some journals right now.

I had a PM conversation with a member about it, and a text conversation with a different one (neither initiated by me), so I know I wasn't the only one (and if there were at least 3 of us that felt alienated like this, I'm sure there was more).

It's such a minor, teeney, tiny thing compared to the overall horribleness of the election.  A completely inconsequential thing.  But it was a personal cut, an unnecessary one, and one that just made me sad.

Skipping past that, one thing I very much enjoyed that I hope everyone upset by the election can take as an awesome message is Maya Angelou reading her poem "Still I Rise"... this was recorded about 10 years ago, but the message she prefaces it with in this video is something that--were she alive today--I think she could have said after last Tuesday's election.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqOqo50LSZ0

Ok, this one is not posted today, but ARS nails this on the head.
(I got slammed for posting some link, so this is very appropriate to explain what happened).

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2016, 10:41:47 AM »
That's what you have to do to win them over, convince them that government isn't incompetent.

Can you convince me that government is inevitably incompetent?  Not our current government, not governments of the past but all governments.  What fundamental property of governments make them inevitably incompetent?

I ought to be able to convince you that government has a systemic weakness.

There's a controls issue.

I am going to be stealing most of these arguments and examples, from a lot of sources, and I'm not going to cite them, because this is decades of reading all kinds of things and I honestly don't sort information in my head that way.  But it is easiest to identify the issue when you look at it in simple terms.

You buy a certain amount of milk per month for your household.  Maybe it is zero, maybe it is one gallon.  So how much milk does the country need to produce?

Well, it needs to produce (amount individual wants)x(number of individuals).  But each person wants a different amount.  No problem, we'll estimate that, we'll use a formula, with a distribution.  And we'll come up with a range, and we'll produce some extra, cuz fuck it, we're rich like that.

But you actually prefer 1%.  OK, we'll make two kinds of milk.  Your friend wants 2%?  No problem, 3 kinds of milk.  You kid wants chocolate?  OK, 6 kinds of milk.  You don't want to buy it in a 1 gallon jug, you want four size options?  OK 24 kinds of milk.  You changed your mind when bikini season drew near and now want skim?  OK, 36 kinds of milk and a seasonal variation in demand.

So, to get the right amount of milk, even if you forget details about regional variations, distributions, etc, "THE ECONOMY" has to perform an incredibly complex calculation.  If you really dig into the weeds of what I described up above what you'll find is that a decision about milk needs to happen a couple of million times per day.  And that's just to still it get it wrong daily.

This milk problem is not just a milk problem.  It applies to literally everything.  Who to marry, to have kids or not, how many, where to live, what kind of house, what job to do, car or bike, socks or sandals (or both! fuck you you don't know my life).

So government solutions fundamentally fail to recognize this systemic weakness.  Or rather, the rhetoric of political debate fails to accept, with any sort of humility, this reality.

And I can say reality because of people starving in cities during the great depression not because of crop failures, but because of crops literally rotting in the fields due to poor government decisions.  I can say reality because of 30-90 million (and some argue many many more) dead communists under Stalin, Lenin, and Mao in countries that can literally grow enough food to feed the entire world.  These weren't failures that were the result of bad people, government simply is not up to the job of making, what amounts to, quintillions of decisions every day.

There's no computer made, no collection of computers, that can do this, except the biological entity known as the human race.  And even that, billions of the best organic computers ever made, all working together to not starve to death, gets it wrong seemingly as often as not.  The mechanism we use to communicate all of this information is price.  And so when the government tries to make this decision it thinks it can substitute all of those quintillions of decisions made daily by just fixing the price.  Any subsidy is this.  Actual price fixes are this as well.  And it doesn't work.  I mean, it staggeringly and disastrously does not work.  It kills people, is how bad it works.  More people have been killed by fixing prices than by shooting guns, dropping bombs, or swinging swords.  No human has ever done more damage than one that fixed a price with the power of government.

Think of it in another way.

The individual possesses everything they need to negotiate the price of everything they need.  The seductive idea presents itself to the lazy brain that serves that individual that it can relax and let someone else handle that tedious task for them.  This is tempting!  And so lazy brain agrees.  And then that other entity gets something wrong.  This is of course because that will happen whenever you outsource your own decisions.  But instead of recognizing that the outsourcing is to blame, lazy brain identifies others who are also doing lazy brain, and blames them.  The correct solution was always to take back the decision making power and go back to negotiating for yourself.  But lazy brain is lazy, and that's harder.

If your computer started telling you that it wasn't going to do the things you wanted it to do, because it had elected a computer in the next office over to do that work, you would get a new computer, and never again interact with that steaming pile of shit.

But for some reason, the human race, and I think its because of millennia of starvation, is hooked on the idea of leadership.  And I will agree that a government of some kind is necessary.

But for the day-to-day, it is simply impossible for the government to be as good as the individual at governing the individual life.  Regardless of how bad the individual is.  Regardless of how good the government is.

And so for any given problem, the solution needs to be as local as possible.

Can I fix this myself?

Can me and my family fix this?

Can me and my friends fix this?

Can me and my local action committee fix this?

Can our church/school/local charity fix this?

Can our county/city fix this?

Can our state fix this?

Can our group of states fix this?

Can our country fix this?

Can our world fix this?

So if you take a step back and ask yourself honestly if certain items on the Democratic platform were even tried before just going straight to the federal level?  And you find resoundingly that most of them were, and had great success, because most of them are much more easily solved locally.  Upon going national, most were set back, and are less effective now than they used to be.

And more recently, you find that most just skipped the first 8 steps.  Because fundraising is hard.  It is so much easier to just tax the money away.  But it robs the individual being charitable of any of the positive effects of charity, and denies the recipient of that charity the opportunity to be grateful.  It turns citizens helping each other into citizens forced to help each other.  It turns aid into entitlement.  These are real effects, and they are bad.  And they are inevitable if it is government doing the thing.

There is an argument FOR government.  And that's that certain shit is just not going to get done otherwise.  But it is critical that everyone going to government understand that it ought to be the last resort.  Nothing else has worked, we have to do this.

The history of progressiveness is one that likes to lay claim to certain things, when in reality those things were coming anyway, and progressives jumped out to force it the last 2% and claim 100% of the credit.  And in so doing, provide all the justification needed for an opposition to then fight was an inevitable cultural shift.  The only legitimate victories to be claimed are the ones found in the constitutional amendments.  And even there, you find failures as well.

It is reactionary and understandable, as that's also the history of conservatism.

A law that says don't shoot your neighbor unless he's trying to shoot you, makes sense.  The reason that is so cut and dry and should be a law is obvious.  It depends not on history or party or anything.  An extra tax on single people?  Denying them survivor benefits?  Treating them unequally under the law?  That makes no sense.  It depends entirely on history and party.  (And I choose that as an issue as it is just not talked about at all by republicans or democrats, is clearly a thing, and so I like it as an example.  Don't get bogged down by the detail though.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, well, you aren't paying attention).

Where you see clashes between democrat and republican, almost universally, they are arguing over things that government shouldn't be involved in one way or the other.

That's very different from "there shouldn't be a government at all."  Obviously we do need a government, but that is the end of where history and party should be part of the conversation.  From that point on, if you act knowing that government sucks at everything, you arrive at the constitution of the united states.  Government is going to do these things at the federal level, and no others.  Because individuals, if left to their own devices, are capable of governing themselves.

Please note that the above reasoning doesn't even take into account the quality of the people chosen as leaders.  You could pick the absolute best, most honest, most intelligent, hardest working, people, and the systemic weakness inherent in central planning would still lead to shit outcomes.

That's the problem, portraying the failures of the system as the result of character flaws in the opposition is what elections are about, but it isn't why government doesn't actually work.  The idea that the inefficiencies you see would go away if someone better was doing it, that it would all just sort of "drop out" when you balance the equation, is incredibly seductive.  But there's a reason it has never worked.

And it hasn't.  That's the first clue right there.  You can blame the resistance in the wires for why power isn't getting to your customers, but at some point, maybe DC just wasn't the right choice.  Maybe the reality underlying everything is that what you're trying to do is going about it all wrong.

And Democrats and Republicans do fundamentally agree on this.  Education is so universally emphasized on both sides because of how critical that individual governing is.  Republicans just look at how many people grow up to become democrats and conclude there must be something wrong with the schools, and then Democrats attack Republicans for attacking education, when the actual target was schools, because even though we're all the same, when we start making decisions that forget government sucks at everything we forget what the root cause of the problem is.

To fix the schools you don't privatize them, you de-nationalize them.  You get the federal government out of it.  In some places you maybe get the state government out too.

I'm going to say it again because you shouldn't dismiss it as cynicism.  Regardless of who is involved, the government sucks at everything.  It is the employee at your workplace that shows up late, takes a two hour lunch, takes a 15 minute break every hour, leaves early, calls in sick weekly, asks for cash advances on the next paycheck, has relatives that show up drunk, and periodically can't work because of court appearances.  It's fine not to fire them, but for god sakes don't give them anything important to do.  And as someone who has worked in government the past four years or so, that is the exact description of almost everyone I work with.  It isn't that they are bad people, it's that government sucks at everything.

Wow, found two great posts today!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 10:43:27 AM by CowboyAndIndian »

Lagom

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2016, 11:45:38 AM »
I keep meaning to contribute to this thread then always forget to do so when I encounter a great post. So I figured I should at least follow and hopefully I'll remember sooner or later!

bernieb

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Re: The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2016, 12:19:33 PM »
good stuff. following