Post by: goodlife on November 28, 2014, 12:35:27 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/the-art-of-not-working-at-work/382121/
The reason why I post this of course is because I can totally relate to it. There are so many hours in my day when I do absolutely nothing at work. Now, like that civil servant pointed out, this is not because I am some kind of evil person, shirking at work and depriving my employer of resources, but rather there is just not that much to do to begin with. And this, mind you, despite the fact that I work in a supposedly high-pressure field (investment banking, private equity). Yes, I have regularly worked very long hours (12h is the minimum, 14-16 hour days are not abnormal), but a lot of that time is not actually spent doing anything. There is a lot of waiting around for someone else to send you something and most of the late evening hours are completely useless, it's more of a prisoner's dilemma kind of situation where you feel like you can't go home because everyone else is still there...everyone else also feels the same way...but in fact nobody is really doing any real work.
I really wonder how many people who have office jobs are also affected by this. I am not suffering from burn-out...but bore-out is likely to set in at some point (but thankfully I will be FI soon). I think certain jobs might be exempted from this problem...teachers, doctors, nurses etc. But the large number of office dwellers?
When I got my first internship, I was really puzzled. I was constantly asking people for work, until someone told me that if I want to get a full time job here, I should stop that and start pretending like I am doing something, otherwise people will perceive me as lazy. So here I was, sitting at my computer day in and day out pretending to be busy. I got a job offer with flying colors. I was also trying to figure out what everyone else was doing all these hours...it really puzzled me, because when I asked them, I could tell that they are mostly BSing. Years later now I have come to realize that most people around me are probably in the same spot as I am...but they just don't admit it. I have a small group of friends who I can joke with about this, they work in all kinds of industries and all have the same problem...but most people, oh no, they would never admit that they are really not doing very much....and for sure not doing very much that's useful. Also see: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
Post by: MDM on November 28, 2014, 01:05:27 AM
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
Post by: Spondulix on November 28, 2014, 02:03:06 AM
It's one thing if the employer is oblivious, but in my case (and a previous company I worked for) they were fully aware time was "wasted" through the day. My old boss asked me to slow down because they wanted to keep it a leisurely environment. The typical pace in my industry is pedal to the metal (where people burn out fast) and they wanted happy employees, not workaholics. In my job now, it's totally transparent because they track my project hours. I think it's a huge benefit to have free time! I work on side gigs from my personal laptop. I read books and blogs, so they are essentially paying me to educate myself.
I wonder why we don't question the opposite more. Are cramming in too much? With qualified people looking for work, is it really necessary for one person to be doing 60+ hour work weeks?
Post by: Monkey Uncle on November 28, 2014, 04:57:55 AM
Post by: libertarian4321 on November 28, 2014, 05:02:01 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
Post by: libertarian4321 on November 28, 2014, 05:04:34 AM
I've spent the last 11 years chanting the mantra of the govt. employee: "more with less."
If only government actually worked that way. I always thought that while the "mantra" of government might be "more with less," but the results of government tend toward "less with more."
Post by: mak1277 on November 28, 2014, 05:14:00 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
This right here. I was going to reply and say my peace but this pretty much covers it, right down to the example of husband and wife, which is exactly replicated in my household.
Post by: goodlife on November 28, 2014, 05:57:49 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
HAHA!!! This describes my life perfectly! I always finish things very quickly, but that doesn't mean I do it badly, I am just really efficient! My boss on the other hand...FRAZZLED!!!! Always busy busy busy, but never getting anything done. Your email example...spot on...I observed her "composing" an email once...it would have taken me literally 30 seconds: 'Dear X, are you free to meet on this date..."...simple enough, but no, she spent at least 15min composing the email! Just today she wanted me to edit a certain model and was freaking out how long that will take me. I was like wtf lady....it takes like 30min...and that's exactly how long it took. But never mind, I still have to be in the office the whole day...even though only 50% of the time I actually work on things. The rest I am just bored...surfing the net or whatever. Of course that sounds like bliss to some people...but not for me...it's been too long like this. There are some (few) days when I am really challenged all day and have things to work on. Those are the days that I am happiest at work...because I am not bored.
Post by: GuitarStv on November 28, 2014, 06:07:11 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
HAHA!!! This describes my life perfectly! I always finish things very quickly, but that doesn't mean I do it badly, I am just really efficient! My boss on the other hand...FRAZZLED!!!! Always busy busy busy, but never getting anything done. Your email example...spot on...I observed her "composing" an email once...it would have taken me literally 30 seconds: 'Dear X, are you free to meet on this date..."...simple enough, but no, she spent at least 15min composing the email! Just today she wanted me to edit a certain model and was freaking out how long that will take me. I was like wtf lady....it takes like 30min...and that's exactly how long it took. But never mind, I still have to be in the office the whole day...even though only 50% of the time I actually work on things. The rest I am just bored...surfing the net or whatever. Of course that sounds like bliss to some people...but not for me...it's been too long like this. There are some (few) days when I am really challenged all day and have things to work on. Those are the days that I am happiest at work...because I am not bored.
+1
Unfortunately management wants to see asses in chairs. People who put in tons of overtime to get their work done are considered fantastic employees rather than inefficient workers. If you actually just did the work assigned and went home when it was done, you would be fired within a month . . . regardless of how well the work was completed. So, here I surf.
Post by: Workinghard on November 28, 2014, 06:16:43 AM
I am a salaried employee, soon to go Perdiem. I am expected to meet 26 units of productivity Friday through Monday. Invariably, I end up with 28 to 32 units. Compare that to Monday through Friday people who are required to have 32 units. Because my work gets done, handed in daily, and it is thorough, and there's no consumer complaints, I get extra and sent out of county which adds more time in my day.
I have shared organization and time management techniques. I'm amazed at the people who are not willing to take the time to do it.
Post by: Monkey Uncle on November 28, 2014, 06:20:20 AM
I've spent the last 11 years chanting the mantra of the govt. employee: "more with less."
If only government actually worked that way. I always thought that while the "mantra" of government might be "more with less," but the results of government tend toward "less with more."
Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News. While the military, entitlements, and Homeland (in)Security keep taking more and more money, the rest of govt keeps getting cut and is expected to produce the same or more.
Post by: Raay on November 28, 2014, 06:39:19 AM
Since I started contracting on my own and working mostly from my home office a couple years ago, I don't have this problem any more. However, my average number of billed hours per day is down to 4 (I count the remaining non-billed hours as entertainment). I hear this is about the same amount that is routinely productively spent in a 9-to-5 position.
Also, it's very true that individual productivity varies a lot, almost orders of magnitude. I noticed this when delegating work to an employee - the guy is about 5x slower than myself (and he is not paid by the hour, so I can't say he is purposefully slacking off).
Post by: Luck12 on November 28, 2014, 09:21:57 AM
Post by: socaso on November 28, 2014, 02:00:28 PM
Post by: Milizard on November 28, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
I dealt with it by quitting.
Post by: Primm on November 28, 2014, 02:42:33 PM
Post by: Le Barbu on November 28, 2014, 02:58:43 PM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
HAHA!!! This describes my life perfectly! I always finish things very quickly, but that doesn't mean I do it badly, I am just really efficient! My boss on the other hand...FRAZZLED!!!! Always busy busy busy, but never getting anything done. Your email example...spot on...I observed her "composing" an email once...it would have taken me literally 30 seconds: 'Dear X, are you free to meet on this date..."...simple enough, but no, she spent at least 15min composing the email! Just today she wanted me to edit a certain model and was freaking out how long that will take me. I was like wtf lady....it takes like 30min...and that's exactly how long it took. But never mind, I still have to be in the office the whole day...even though only 50% of the time I actually work on things. The rest I am just bored...surfing the net or whatever. Of course that sounds like bliss to some people...but not for me...it's been too long like this. There are some (few) days when I am really challenged all day and have things to work on. Those are the days that I am happiest at work...because I am not bored.
+1
Unfortunately management wants to see asses in chairs. People who put in tons of overtime to get their work done are considered fantastic employees rather than inefficient workers. If you actually just did the work assigned and went home when it was done, you would be fired within a month . . . regardless of how well the work was completed. So, here I surf.
+2 here, efficiency gives us A LOT of free time. And most of the time, our results are better !
Post by: Philociraptor on November 28, 2014, 03:24:18 PM
Post by: brooklynguy on November 28, 2014, 03:38:45 PM
Post by: Spondulix on November 28, 2014, 04:09:32 PM
Time is only what we make of it. I used to be incredibly uncomfortable with being idle and was a busy bee all the time. Then, my mom had a heart attack from work stress and I realized that I was heading down the same path (I was working double shifts, taking on extra work on the weekends, hobbies, meetings - I was in "go" mode or "crash" mode). So I question if busy types are really just uncomfortable with being idle (that's how I was). Now, if I work in a private room, I'll take 15 minutes to meditate, which is actually proven to lower stress and raise attentiveness. I'll leave and take a walk - they know if I'm not in the office to call and I'll come right back. To me, it's a quality of life thing, in addition to health.
The biggest delay in my work now is waiting for approval. Work goes out to a client or manager, and they know we're on the clock until we hear back. Sometimes it can still takes a few hours to get a response. It's just a known cost of doing business (albeit inefficient.)
Post by: Johnez on November 28, 2014, 05:29:12 PM
Post by: Goldielocks on November 29, 2014, 01:25:31 AM
I worked in analyst position, and had to generate dozens of repetitive reports a week, and email them to store manager groups. When I became the manager, I made no concealment of the fact that I would have my group stop publishing about 10 more every month to see if anyone noticed.
Rarely, someone did- about 3 to 6 months later and a quick one off custom report was all they needed.
Post by: libertarian4321 on November 29, 2014, 01:45:54 AM
I've spent the last 11 years chanting the mantra of the govt. employee: "more with less."
If only government actually worked that way. I always thought that while the "mantra" of government might be "more with less," but the results of government tend toward "less with more."
Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News. While the military, entitlements, and Homeland (in)Security keep taking more and more money, the rest of govt keeps getting cut and is expected to produce the same or more.
I wish this were true. Alas, I fear it is not. Long-term, Federal spending continues to trend upward, and Defense and Homeland Security have actually seen small cuts in the past couple of years. Others, like HHS and State have seen massive increases.
But I guess this is a topic for another thread.
Post by: Schaefer Light on November 29, 2014, 05:59:18 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on November 29, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Now I feel like watching Office Space for some reason.
It's one of the most accurate real life documentaries I've ever seen. I'll watch it again this weekend if I can get through these damned TPS reports.
Post by: MrsK on November 29, 2014, 10:19:02 AM
Early in my career, I was often told to slow down and quit finishing projects so fast. When I was in the office, I learned the art of the "double lunch" which means you go to the gym at an odd time--maybe 10:00 AM or 2:30 PM and then take a second lunch break to actually eat lunch at your desk while reading a novel you downloaded to your desktop. I also would take a daily walk around the huge corporate headquarters for an hour or so with a file folder in my hand. These things made me look busy and killed time.
I love working at home full time and think all companies should work this way. It should not matter how many hours you work--you should be graded only on the quality of your work and getting it done on time and on (or under) budget.
But I will soon be trying to orchestrate my own lay off . . . so that should be fun!
Post by: Pooperman on November 29, 2014, 11:07:18 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
HAHA!!! This describes my life perfectly! I always finish things very quickly, but that doesn't mean I do it badly, I am just really efficient! My boss on the other hand...FRAZZLED!!!! Always busy busy busy, but never getting anything done. Your email example...spot on...I observed her "composing" an email once...it would have taken me literally 30 seconds: 'Dear X, are you free to meet on this date..."...simple enough, but no, she spent at least 15min composing the email! Just today she wanted me to edit a certain model and was freaking out how long that will take me. I was like wtf lady....it takes like 30min...and that's exactly how long it took. But never mind, I still have to be in the office the whole day...even though only 50% of the time I actually work on things. The rest I am just bored...surfing the net or whatever. Of course that sounds like bliss to some people...but not for me...it's been too long like this. There are some (few) days when I am really challenged all day and have things to work on. Those are the days that I am happiest at work...because I am not bored.
+1
Unfortunately management wants to see asses in chairs. People who put in tons of overtime to get their work done are considered fantastic employees rather than inefficient workers. If you actually just did the work assigned and went home when it was done, you would be fired within a month . . . regardless of how well the work was completed. So, here I surf.
+2 here, efficiency gives us A LOT of free time. And most of the time, our results are better !
At work, I'm a grunt. I'm the youngest person in the office AND lowest on the ladder. However, I get my stuff done efficiently. I hear comments from the older managers saying "bill this at 8 hours for the week", and realistically it takes me 4 or 5 hours of labor to do. Part of consulting I guess.Problem is, to be focussed like that, I need break time between these tasks, so in effect, it does take longer, but if I'm really under the gun, I can do 15 "hours of work" in 8 hours, but I come out the other side a mess. Still, I keep my 40 hour week (it's actually 45 with the lunch hour and more accurately 60 with commuting). Holidays (mid Nov - Mid Jan) is a very slow time for us, so I will take copious advantage of "working" for 3-4 hours a day and spending the rest of the time learning about finance or frugality or some such thing. I always ask for more work when I feel I don't have enough, and so I tend to be passed around as the extra help person, but even then, I don't got over my hours or more accurately I only work about 25 hours a week because efficiency is the shit.
Post by: secondcor521 on November 29, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I guess I should feel fortunate. I manage a team of engineers at a technology company, and they are exactly graded and compensated on the amount of valuable work they provide and the quality and timeliness of that work. Secondarily, they are graded on teamwork, customer focus, efficiency, and a couple of other traits I can't think of at the moment. I just got together with three of my manager peers and we spent about two hours going through each engineer and discussing their performance in terms of those traits and abilities, which are going to directly affect who gets raises and how much, and who gets equity awards and how much.
I also can't imagine being "throttled" in terms of not being given more work to do if needed. I've been working at this company for over five years and have literally had about two hours where I felt all caught up and their was nothing I could contribute to. There is always more work to be done than people to do it. And it is real work where the product is better and we make more money because of the effort.
I find too that if I stay productive the time goes by faster. I'd like to think that always trying to contribute has been one of the factors that has led to my raises, equity, and promotions, but it may just be my raw good looks and the fact that I wear 48 pieces of flair every day.
Post by: Dr. Doom on November 29, 2014, 05:37:52 PM
But I wanted to mention that a few of the jobs were very, very fast-paced, with more work to do in any given day than anyone could possibly get done. I'm hardly an inefficient worker - I touch type, leverage existing knowledge to create solutions faster, hit up CWs for tips if I get stuck or blocked, and otherwise crank.
So, at least in my experience, there is a surprisingly large degree of variance between employers and positions. It's a mistake to assume everyone who says they're working 50 hours a week is websurfing 40 of them away and then lying to CWs that they're amazingly busy all of the time. Maybe they're only dorking off for 10 of them and the other 40 really are actually busy. Startups in particular can be relentlessly intense.
Thankfully, I'm currently at a gig where I don't have enough to do and end up pretending I'm doing much more than I am. I like that better than going nuts on tasks and projects all of the time, anyways.
Post by: Rural on November 29, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
Post by: goodlife on November 29, 2014, 07:00:27 PM
Early in my career, I was often told to slow down and quit finishing projects so fast. When I was in the office, I learned the art of the "double lunch" which means you go to the gym at an odd time--maybe 10:00 AM or 2:30 PM and then take a second lunch break to actually eat lunch at your desk while reading a novel you downloaded to your desktop. I also would take a daily walk around the huge corporate headquarters for an hour or so with a file folder in my hand. These things made me look busy and killed time.
LOL, this is exactly what I do every day....or a version thereof....I have my own office..I so I even bring a book and read it for like 2 hours a day.
Post by: goodlife on November 29, 2014, 07:04:10 PM
Post by: toodleoo on November 29, 2014, 08:16:03 PM
Post by: Dr. Doom on November 29, 2014, 08:39:53 PM
Maybe they have never thought of it?
I have thoughts along these lines frequently, too, and I think the above question hits on the most likely answer. If you know FI is a life choice, and this occurs to you while you're still young enough to do something about it, you can plan to get out or at least semi-retire, downshift your career, or move to something else entirely that may pay less but you'd be happier doing. All it really takes is a good handle on your finances and being consistent over time in hitting your savings rate goals. Bam!
The problem is that the top level default financial decision most people make is to blow through everything they earn, in one way or another. Although the concepts around FIRE are not that difficult to pick up, it does require conscious spending and saving. if you're aimlessly buying stuff, you will not 'accidentally' achieve FI unless you hit the lottery or get a large inheritance. (And indeed, even those rare events are not enough for many people to sustain living indefinitely - a lot of people will just tear through ever larger piles of money until they're broke again.)
So here's how things develop for most people. Nearly everyone reflexively builds habitual spending into their lives until they are trapped by a need for their current level of income and must therefore keep grinding it out at work. This produces a paycheck which, in turn, continues to (barely) fund the life they've architected for themselves. People are capable of spending outrageous sums of money, particularly on cars, houses (multiple houses! Or upgrading houses! Or remodeling houses!), and private schools. Thing is, these things generate obligatory monthly outflows: mortgages, leases, contractors, landscapers, tuition. And people convince themselves that those outflows are impossible to put a stop to, for one reason or another.
Let's say you're 50 and you're in the above situation (feeling financially trapped) and you've just found out that FIRE is a possible life option by reading an article about early retirement on Yahoo! At this point in your existence you are much more likely to leave a comment like "THIS ARTICL. IS CRAP, IN AMERICA U WORK 4EVR" than you are to alter one iota of your lifestyle.
And you'll leave this comment while at work, with an 11AM posting time, immediately prior to seeing a CW in the hallway and explaining for the Nth time how incredibly busy you are, now and forever, even though you've done nothing.
Post by: goodlife on November 29, 2014, 11:21:58 PM
Maybe they have never thought of it?
So here's how things develop for most people. Nearly everyone reflexively builds habitual spending into their lives until they are trapped by a need for their current level of income and must therefore keep grinding it out at work. This produces a paycheck which, in turn, continues to (barely) fund the life they've architected for themselves. People are capable of spending outrageous sums of money, particularly on cars, houses (multiple houses! Or upgrading houses! Or remodeling houses!), and private schools. Thing is, these things generate obligatory monthly outflows: mortgages, leases, contractors, landscapers, tuition. And people convince themselves that those outflows are impossible to put a stop to, for one reason or another.
I suppose you are right and this is really how it is for these people...I just find it so hard to get my head around that. I am talking about people who make 400k a year...consistently over many years! Yet they are in their 40s and still working and hate their jobs, are either really bored or really burnt-out (even though I think it is often hard to know the different between the two). But yes, you are right in that they created a lifestyle for themselves that somehow is more like a prison sentence...they just don't seem to know how to get out of it. I have suggested to one or two of these people (who I am a bit closer to) that they could just quit and live of 50k per year and be fine forever...they thought I was nuts and recounted to me how even with a 400k income they can barely get by. In fact, one such person elaborated to me how he can save nothing even though he makes 400k per year and it's exactly that...expensive rent of some crazy apartment or house...or mortgage on some mansion...private school for two kids...etc. I guess the reason I can't see their spending is because these people are actually not flash. It's not fancy clothes, nice cars and Prada bags. Not at all actually, the way I observe them they seem quite regular people. But I guess it's all the spending that someone like me as an outside observer can't see...I have no idea about the private school tuition for their kids, how often they remodeled their house(s)...how much they spend on utilities alone to keep a place like this running etc.
Kind of sad really. And also explains why I never felt like I fitted into this environment very well. I often just look at people and wonder: what is everyone doing...and why are they doing it? Everyone is constantly just pretending to be busy and wants to suck up to people above them...while really not doing anything. A lot of the work I do, I secretly think to myself that this doesn't even make any sense. I sometimes really want to go to my boss's boss and tell him that none of this makes any sense and really someone should totally overthink the whole business model. But then I think this is pointless. Maybe everyone actually knows this too...but they just like keeping the status quo.
Also, if anyone read the Atlantic article that I linked to, there is this quote which I really think is true of a lot office workplaces:
"The key to career advancement is appearing valuable despite all hard evidence to the contrary. … If you add any actual value to your company today, your career is probably not moving in the right direction. Real work is for people at the bottom who plan to stay there.”
I feel like I was doing the most "real work" during my first two years after graduation. The further I move up, the less it is about working and more about pretending and sucking up to the person above you. FI can't come soon enough!
Post by: Adventine on November 29, 2014, 11:31:32 PM
You summed it up perfectly, Mr. Stark.Maybe they have never thought of it?
I have thoughts along these lines frequently, too, and I think the above question hits on the most likely answer. If you know FI is a life choice, and this occurs to you while you're still young enough to do something about it, you can plan to get out or at least semi-retire, downshift your career, or move to something else entirely that may pay less but you'd be happier doing. All it really takes is a good handle on your finances and being consistent over time in hitting your savings rate goals. Bam!
The problem is that the top level default financial decision most people make is to blow through everything they earn, in one way or another. Although the concepts around FIRE are not that difficult to pick up, it does require conscious spending and saving. if you're aimlessly buying stuff, you will not 'accidentally' achieve FI unless you hit the lottery or get a large inheritance. (And indeed, even those rare events are not enough for many people to sustain living indefinitely - a lot of people will just tear through ever larger piles of money until they're broke again.)
So here's how things develop for most people. Nearly everyone reflexively builds habitual spending into their lives until they are trapped by a need for their current level of income and must therefore keep grinding it out at work. This produces a paycheck which, in turn, continues to (barely) fund the life they've architected for themselves. People are capable of spending outrageous sums of money, particularly on cars, houses (multiple houses! Or upgrading houses! Or remodeling houses!), and private schools. Thing is, these things generate obligatory monthly outflows: mortgages, leases, contractors, landscapers, tuition. And people convince themselves that those outflows are impossible to put a stop to, for one reason or another.
Let's say you're 50 and you're in the above situation (feeling financially trapped) and you've just found out that FIRE is a possible life option by reading an article about early retirement on Yahoo! At this point in your existence you are much more likely to leave a comment like "THIS ARTICL. IS CRAP, IN AMERICA U WORK 4EVR" than you are to alter one iota of your lifestyle.
And you'll leave this comment while at work, with an 11AM posting time, immediately prior to seeing a CW in the hallway and explaining for the Nth time how incredibly busy you are, now and forever, even though you've done nothing.
Post by: market timer on November 30, 2014, 06:43:44 AM
Post by: DoubleDown on November 30, 2014, 09:41:06 AM
Maybe they have never thought of it?
I have thoughts along these lines frequently, too, and I think the above question hits on the most likely answer. <snip>
Enjoyed this, thanks for posting
Post by: Trimatty471 on November 30, 2014, 10:07:11 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
You describe some of my coworkers. According to my supervisor, busy,busy, busy is the "good" employee. That is until she really needs something done.
Post by: Prairie Gal on November 30, 2014, 07:13:33 PM
Post by: MsRichLife on November 30, 2014, 08:25:48 PM
Post by: vern on November 30, 2014, 11:57:36 PM
Post by: Ozstache on December 01, 2014, 03:25:58 AM
The key was to stand back from all the BS and pick out the couple of activities that would really make a difference to my work position's outcome and blitz them, then just fob off or poodle fake the rest. It was important not to be too productive with mundane tasks, as that tended to attract even more of them, which was counter-productive to the 'game'.
An unfortunate side effect, as mentioned a few times in this thread, was boredom. Work was not engaging enough to overcome this and alternatives could not be practically utilised enough to be effective. As a result, when I hit FI, RE followed soon after. It was the right decision: no more games!
Post by: golden1 on December 01, 2014, 07:25:08 AM
Quote
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
There is a lot of truth to this. My co-worker can spend 2 hours on his weekly status email. I spend 5 minutes most weeks. I can blow through reports very fast if I need to. I also find a lot of people waste tons of time by getting sucked into unnecessary meetings, and spending hours talking to people in the office. My job is such that I don't have tons of interactions with people which cuts down on the chit chat.
I am in research, so the job is never really "done", but I am given a certain number of experiments to run in a given week. The structure of the lab work I do means that there is just a lot of down time waiting for results. There is only so much other stuff to do to fill in the time i.e. keeping up on your industry doings, researching new technologies, learning new skills etc... I probably spend 20-25 hours in any given week actually "working" on average. It is also feast or famine - sometimes too much to do in a week, sometimes almost nothing.
Post by: goodlife on December 01, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Work for me was always a bit of game for me as to how little effort I could put in yet still be far more productive than the average co-worker. Towards the end of my career, I got it down to a fine art, working feverishly for about 20-25% of the time and looking busy for the rest.
The key was to stand back from all the BS and pick out the couple of activities that would really make a difference to my work position's outcome and blitz them, then just fob off or poodle fake the rest. It was important not to be too productive with mundane tasks, as that tended to attract even more of them, which was counter-productive to the 'game'.
An unfortunate side effect, as mentioned a few times in this thread, was boredom. Work was not engaging enough to overcome this and alternatives could not be practically utilised enough to be effective. As a result, when I hit FI, RE followed soon after. It was the right decision: no more games!
I am pretty much heading down the same route and to be honest, I am rather sad about that fact. I am not a generally lazy person, it was never my intention to just bore myself through a few years of work until I hit FI and then I can go chill out and kiss the real world goodbye. I am not a lazy person. When I was still in school, I was genuinely looking forward to applying my skills in a meaningful well, I was excited about entering the working world and I really didn't see it as some kind of horrible ordeal that I had to go through for a few years until my bank account balance had grown big enough. I really only stumbled on this whole FI concept not too long ago because the working world just didn't turn out the way I expected it to. I am so sick of being either bored or working on stuff that I know full well is pretty meaningless and in most cases useless as well. I am just not the type who can work away like a busy bee on something that I know is rather useless. I know many people who can do that and keep themselves occupied that way. But for me, I just can't, I always question what the point of any given task is and if I can clearly tell that there really is no point, then I'd rather not do it (and 99% of the time nobody even notices, which only confirms that I was right from the beginning). But I really wish I could find something to do where this is not the case. I have only worked for 5.5 years. In 3 years (maybe less) I will be FI. But I find it all rather disappointing that I wouldn't have been able to do more with my talents.
Post by: Target2018 on December 01, 2014, 08:12:07 AM
Post by: Dr. Doom on December 01, 2014, 08:43:13 AM
I am talking about people who make 400k a year...consistently over many years!
How to blow through 400K/yr, a primer:
1. 105K/yr - taxes
2. 120K/yr - PITI + landscaping + house cleaners for 6000 sq. foot 2.5 mil home on 3 acres.
3. 80K/yr - premium private school for 2 children
4. 30K/yr -- Own 3 50K cars, rotate one of them out every 3 years, trade in the old model.
You are now locked into 295K of mandatory yearly spending and have "only" 105K left. This will go fast: clothes, food and drink, 15-20K of vacations, utilities, media and phone packages, club memberships, golf equipment, christmas spending, charitable giving, hosting parties, and the odd home renovation.
Worse, were you suddenly inclined to "cut back" on expenses, the only area you would consider touching is going to be in the 105K bucket. But no amount of trimming in that area is going to fix your biggest mandatory expenses. You've got to drastically change your lifestyle in order to increase your savings rate -- and at that point, you fear having your family hate you, losing social connections, and basically becoming a pariah in your circle.
A lot of the work I do, I secretly think to myself that this doesn't even make any sense. I sometimes really want to go to my boss's boss and tell him that none of this makes any sense and really someone should totally overthink the whole business model.Yeah. I get the feeling I'm not in the same industry as you, but still, I go through the same questioning. Not everybody feels the need to get all existentialist about work though, which is why we get what we have. People say things like "It is what it is" and other meaningless statements to explain why they're doing what they're doing -- as if that's a satisfactory answer.
Note: 10:41AM US-ET post time. Yep, I'm at work. Must not be enough to do today.
Post by: mak1277 on December 01, 2014, 10:19:05 AM
QuoteI think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
There is a lot of truth to this. My co-worker can spend 2 hours on his weekly status email. I spend 5 minutes most weeks. I can blow through reports very fast if I need to. I also find a lot of people waste tons of time by getting sucked into unnecessary meetings, and spending hours talking to people in the office. My job is such that I don't have tons of interactions with people which cuts down on the chit chat.
I am in research, so the job is never really "done", but I am given a certain number of experiments to run in a given week. The structure of the lab work I do means that there is just a lot of down time waiting for results. There is only so much other stuff to do to fill in the time i.e. keeping up on your industry doings, researching new technologies, learning new skills etc... I probably spend 20-25 hours in any given week actually "working" on average. It is also feast or famine - sometimes too much to do in a week, sometimes almost nothing.
The corollary to this, I think, is that some people embrace the concept of "good enough" and others won't quit until something is letter perfect. I've always been able to quit working when something is good enough, and not waste time getting things exactly right. Some people just don't have the ability to do that.
Post by: AgileTurtle on December 01, 2014, 01:25:38 PM
Post by: MsRichLife on December 01, 2014, 03:08:08 PM
I am laughing so hard at this post because it is so true. I worked making processes of a business more efficient. Tried to automate work. Turns out most people do not work very much in an office and the most successful people are the ones that can pretend to work the best.
I used to work in business improvement too. I remember one workplace we were trying to help, where there was so much push back on trying to improve the workflow because the boss actually liked being the last one in the office every evening. She liked being seen to be working late every night and being out after the big boss. I just shook my head and walked away from that job. I cannot understand failing to optimise your workflow and working unnecessary hours as a result.
Post by: MandalayVA on December 01, 2014, 03:35:37 PM
The amount of time many of us (myself included) spend participating in this forum during working hours is good evidence of this phenomenon.
This. I work in a clerical job that can be mind-numbingly boring and often I don't have enough work to even remotely fill the day. MMM, Fark.com and my own writing projects save my sanity. With the latter, it actually gives the appearance that I'm working.
Post by: someday on December 01, 2014, 05:28:15 PM
I remember when I was right out of college, working as a consultant for a prestigious firm. My job was at 5pm to take the dinner order, pick up the dinner by 6:30, and make sure that the orders were all taken care of correctly. After dinner, since the group was really only waiting on the boss to call it a day, we all played the game of fake busy. In order to succeed at this game, you learn early on some of the tricks to the trade. For example, when working in a conference room, you should always try and claim the seat facing the door. If you claim the seat facing away from the door, you will have to try harder to play the game of fake busy since everyone coming into the conference room can see your laptop screen.
If push came to shove, I could always turn on the afterburners and power through to make a deadline. The consulting environment is very cognizant of this "feast or famine" idea. Some folks would blatantly play the game a little bit beyond the ethical boundaries, while others seemed clueless to the game (or maybe they were just THAT good?).
Point is - it's everywhere, it's dumb, and highly inefficient. However, we are somewhat conditioned to "fit in" and being the guy always asking for work and outperforming colleagues hand over fist can either lead to some quick promotions, or losing the game of office politics.
Post by: goodlife on December 01, 2014, 06:48:51 PM
I learned this game very early on, and the rules and the levels at which you play this game may vary by your employer and your group that you work in, but for the most part, this game exists for nearly all office environment professions.
I remember when I was right out of college, working as a consultant for a prestigious firm. My job was at 5pm to take the dinner order, pick up the dinner by 6:30, and make sure that the orders were all taken care of correctly. After dinner, since the group was really only waiting on the boss to call it a day, we all played the game of fake busy. In order to succeed at this game, you learn early on some of the tricks to the trade. For example, when working in a conference room, you should always try and claim the seat facing the door. If you claim the seat facing away from the door, you will have to try harder to play the game of fake busy since everyone coming into the conference room can see your laptop screen.
If push came to shove, I could always turn on the afterburners and power through to make a deadline. The consulting environment is very cognizant of this "feast or famine" idea. Some folks would blatantly play the game a little bit beyond the ethical boundaries, while others seemed clueless to the game (or maybe they were just THAT good?).
Point is - it's everywhere, it's dumb, and highly inefficient. However, we are somewhat conditioned to "fit in" and being the guy always asking for work and outperforming colleagues hand over fist can either lead to some quick promotions, or losing the game of office politics.
This basically describes investment banking to the T...minus the conference rooms. Everyone just goofs off at their own computer...6pm to midnight is the worst...everyone sitting there and either watching youtube or reading random crap on the internet. Finally the boss leaves...everyone leaves...nobody has been doing anything for how many hours...such a great use of time.
Post by: goodlife on December 01, 2014, 06:52:01 PM
I am laughing so hard at this post because it is so true. I worked making processes of a business more efficient. Tried to automate work. Turns out most people do not work very much in an office and the most successful people are the ones that can pretend to work the best.
I tried to enlighten my group with a way of saving a lot of time related to emailing around millions of versions of the same document and in the end losing all sight of it. Even though it was very easy to fix this problem...turns out nobody was interested in it. I guess they really like sending out those emails and appearing busy...and cc'ing the big boss...who I am pretty sure has an auto-delete function for those email. Oh well...here I am...it's almost 10am my time and I am posting on MMM already.
Post by: lielec11 on December 01, 2014, 08:56:01 PM
I'll gladly stick to educating myself here like others have already mentioned and keep looking busy. The game goes on... I don't know why but this thread made me think of this gem www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYu_bGbZiiQ
Post by: goodlife on December 02, 2014, 02:06:35 AM
I knew this was something some cube monkeys took part in, but I guess I never really thought of the extent. As an ever efficient cube monkey I am in the same boat as the 2 hrs work / 6 hours act like you're working. If someone comes over and asks for my help I gladly oblige, but I certainly don't go searching for mundane tasks. Management may see this as me being a "go getter", but more than likely they are thinking one of two things. 1) im coming for their job 2) this guy can't be that efficient, so he MUST be making mistakes and ill be sure to find one. No thanks...
I'll gladly stick to educating myself here like others have already mentioned and keep looking busy. The game goes on... I don't know why but this thread made me think of this gem www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYu_bGbZiiQ
Hahahaha.....too funny....and I was watching it while simulatneously on a conference call...which was basically a replica of the video...
Post by: golden1 on December 02, 2014, 05:45:24 AM
Quote
This basically describes investment banking to the T...minus the conference rooms. Everyone just goofs off at their own computer...6pm to midnight is the worst...everyone sitting there and either watching youtube or reading random crap on the internet. Finally the boss leaves...everyone leaves...nobody has been doing anything for how many hours...such a great use of time.
This cracks me up...it is like a giant game of chicken.
Post by: AgileTurtle on December 02, 2014, 06:04:12 AM
I am laughing so hard at this post because it is so true. I worked making processes of a business more efficient. Tried to automate work. Turns out most people do not work very much in an office and the most successful people are the ones that can pretend to work the best.
I used to work in business improvement too. I remember one workplace we were trying to help, where there was so much push back on trying to improve the workflow because the boss actually liked being the last one in the office every evening. She liked being seen to be working late every night and being out after the big boss. I just shook my head and walked away from that job. I cannot understand failing to optimise your workflow and working unnecessary hours as a result.
I discoved one team was creating databases that housed data they got from another office. They "did stuff" with the data and sent it back over a FTP site. Turns out the other office was just delating the stuff they got back because they had no need for it. No one knew why they were manipulating the data and sending it back. When I pointed out to their managers that 4 people work 40 hours each on a process that goes no where they were irate. Not because of wasted years but "well what are they going to do now?" the had them keep doing the process until they found something new. Worst part was one of the guys knew what was going on and didnt care. He was ok doing 100% nonsense for 40 hours a week and acting stressed out like he cant handle anymore workload.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 02, 2014, 06:29:31 AM
Post by: lielec11 on December 02, 2014, 06:50:58 AM
In Hong Kong the 'pretend to work' culture is even more firmly entrenched. Basically, nobody in a building can leave before the head boss guy because it looks bad . . . so 11 or 12 hour days are the norm. 3/4 of the office will be quietly playing solitaire waiting for the boss to go home (who is likely in his office playing games on his cellphone). When we send people to work over there they go in, do their job, and leave after eight hours causing scandal.
And I just thought they were attempting to side step the insane rush our subway commute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ewf09o0t4
Post by: Davids on December 02, 2014, 07:37:40 AM
Post by: YTProphet on December 02, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
I've been approached for a new position with a company that's 3 minutes from my house (as opposed to my current position which is 40 minutes away). The salary will probably be the same or slightly higher and there will be a bigger workload with more interesting work, but I may end up working 10-11/hr days again which I'd rather not do. My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation. Not sure that I want to give that up for something unknown even though I'm a bit bored.
Thoughts?
Post by: Pooperman on December 02, 2014, 08:02:00 AM
I've been thinking about this whole idea a lot lately given that I'm in a bit of a quandary. I currently make around $120K/yr and do, on the high end, about 2 hours of work a day. I ask for more work, but no one gives it to me. Moreover, my supervisor pushed for my position to be added, and he's the only one who would really know how much work I do, so I don't want to address it with anyone else in the company.
I've been approached for a new position with a company that's 3 minutes from my house (as opposed to my current position which is 40 minutes away). The salary will probably be the same or slightly higher and there will be a bigger workload with more interesting work, but I may end up working 10-11/hr days again which I'd rather not do. My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation. Not sure that I want to give that up for something unknown even though I'm a bit bored.
Thoughts?
Learn new skills, do consulting/side work at work (It'll look like you're working too!)
Post by: golden1 on December 02, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Quote
My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation.
It really depends on your personality, but I would keep that job and work on side projects whenever you can, especially with the 5 weeks vacation. I would seriously kill for that much.
Post by: YTProphet on December 02, 2014, 08:05:50 AM
I've been thinking about this whole idea a lot lately given that I'm in a bit of a quandary. I currently make around $120K/yr and do, on the high end, about 2 hours of work a day. I ask for more work, but no one gives it to me. Moreover, my supervisor pushed for my position to be added, and he's the only one who would really know how much work I do, so I don't want to address it with anyone else in the company.
I've been approached for a new position with a company that's 3 minutes from my house (as opposed to my current position which is 40 minutes away). The salary will probably be the same or slightly higher and there will be a bigger workload with more interesting work, but I may end up working 10-11/hr days again which I'd rather not do. My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation. Not sure that I want to give that up for something unknown even though I'm a bit bored.
Thoughts?
Learn new skills, do consulting/side work at work (It'll look like you're working too!)
The nature of my professional expertise prohibits me from doing it for anyone else on the side. I have started a side business that's unrelated to my profession, though. It's not up and running yet, but it will be soon. :)
Also, probably worth noting that my boss is happy with my work, as are my co-workers, but my boss would be the only one in the company who knows how little I have to do. Again, though, he's the one who hired me and pushed for the position to be added, so he'd never get rid of me (1) because he likes me and (2) because it'd make him look bad.
Post by: MillenialMustache on December 02, 2014, 08:44:12 AM
Post by: jba302 on December 02, 2014, 09:19:36 AM
I've been thinking about this whole idea a lot lately given that I'm in a bit of a quandary. I currently make around $120K/yr and do, on the high end, about 2 hours of work a day. I ask for more work, but no one gives it to me. Moreover, my supervisor pushed for my position to be added, and he's the only one who would really know how much work I do, so I don't want to address it with anyone else in the company.
I've been approached for a new position with a company that's 3 minutes from my house (as opposed to my current position which is 40 minutes away). The salary will probably be the same or slightly higher and there will be a bigger workload with more interesting work, but I may end up working 10-11/hr days again which I'd rather not do. My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation. Not sure that I want to give that up for something unknown even though I'm a bit bored.
Thoughts?
Learn new skills, do consulting/side work at work (It'll look like you're working too!)
The nature of my professional expertise prohibits me from doing it for anyone else on the side. I have started a side business that's unrelated to my profession, though. It's not up and running yet, but it will be soon. :)
Also, probably worth noting that my boss is happy with my work, as are my co-workers, but my boss would be the only one in the company who knows how little I have to do. Again, though, he's the one who hired me and pushed for the position to be added, so he'd never get rid of me (1) because he likes me and (2) because it'd make him look bad.
In a fairly impressive display of efficiency (perhaps company time theft in retrospect), I requested work from home days in a prior job in a situation kind of like this. Then I just had a laptop VM'ed in so I would be actively available but not really working, just doing house hobby stuff. I was in a team of 12 other people that were "barely able to handle the stress" so I didn't think it would be wise to say anything. Now my current boss doesn't give 2 bits about how my minute-to-minute productivity goes as long as the job ends up being done in time, which has been a godsend.
Post by: Schaefer Light on December 02, 2014, 10:28:33 AM
Post by: Jomar on December 02, 2014, 10:35:54 AM
The amount of time many of us (myself included) spend participating in this forum during working hours is good evidence of this phenomenon.
As I'm doing right now. Bang on.
Post by: dd564 on December 02, 2014, 02:55:36 PM
A saying I like to go by is:
"Done is better than perfect."
I tried to share that with an employee of mine who spent a lot of time reviewing work before completing it.
Post by: Pooperman on December 02, 2014, 03:42:45 PM
Just remember the forum you're on. Most of us here are INTJ people who live efficiency. Personally I'm either focused and working or I'm not focused and not working, so i only work in 'super' hours and procrastinate the rest of the time.
Post by: Bateaux on December 02, 2014, 05:03:50 PM
Post by: Ozstache on December 02, 2014, 05:47:05 PM
Wish I had to fake work. I run a batch process unit in a chemical plant using an Emerson DCS. I monitor 16 screens for a 12 hour shift. The system is poorly programed and the instrumentation has constant problems. At times I get 100 or more alarms an hour.
That would drive me nuts. I'd either rewrite the monitoring program myself, convince management to fund the rewriting of that program if beyond my capacity/capability, or find a new job.
Post by: firewalker on December 02, 2014, 06:48:15 PM
Post by: retired? on December 02, 2014, 07:05:48 PM
When I was in a team that did "research", I used up free time by taking walks around the area. I later found out that this was not unusual.
It became better when I joined a more social team. In that case, the free time was filled with joking about, but also a lot of discussions about the market and the deals under consideration.....not grinding it out work, but valuable conversations. It also served to create stronger connections with the immediate team and others.
Point - work (or valuable activity while in the office) does not always seem like work. A good thing! Can take some getting used to, but it's better than a 9-5 role where your activity is entirely prescribed and this is no leeway for creativity.
Post by: retired? on December 02, 2014, 07:18:17 PM
However, more recently, I had a co-worker to stayed 8-5pm. He didn't participate in as much banter and rarely went out to lunch. However, he always pulled his weight, got his work done, and stayed late on the rare instance that required it.
Most might be afraid to take this approach, but he never suffered, people never spoke poorly of him and in fact liked him a lot. POINT - one can become respected by not bowing to the idea of appearing to be a super hard worker. People were jealous that he was comfortable keeping reasonable hours. Mgt didn't "punish" him.
A lot could be learned from him. Takes a certain amount of confidence, maturity.....and, perhaps a little FI.
Post by: MDM on December 02, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
Call in secondcor521 & team! (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-art-of-not-working-at-work/msg467847/#msg467847)Wish I had to fake work. I run a batch process unit in a chemical plant using an Emerson DCS. I monitor 16 screens for a 12 hour shift. The system is poorly programed and the instrumentation has constant problems. At times I get 100 or more alarms an hour.
That would drive me nuts. I'd either rewrite the monitoring program myself, convince management to fund the rewriting of that program if beyond my capacity/capability, or find a new job.
Seriously, the skills to do for Bateauxdriver's system what Ozstache suggests are in short supply, particularly at the compensation level management in that industry typically assigns. It's not easy to do it well.
Post by: Goldielocks on December 02, 2014, 07:39:59 PM
Wish I had to fake work. I run a batch process unit in a chemical plant using an Emerson DCS. I monitor 16 screens for a 12 hour shift. The system is poorly programed and the instrumentation has constant problems. At times I get 100 or more alarms an hour. My company is filled with people who do almost nothing for their pay. My labor and the efforts of other producers pay their salary. A few years back the Bobs showed up to do an efficiency study. The crazy thing is, they only looked at production jobs. They had spread sheets and stop watches. They found very little nwed for change since our jobs are very busy. We all were amazed that office workers were not audited in the same manner.Hey! I am an acting Bob for a project right now - an electrical utility.
Just try to point out that they have 8 non-operatiosl "desk" employees (engineers, managers, for example) for every foreman and "production" employee on the operations / logistics site. (this is not even head office) It does not go over very well! Hits dead ears.
The good news is that healthcare tends to be a bit more receptive about this -- most healthcare employees that I talk to would rather spend 60% of their time with direct patient care, rather than 90% of time in paperwork, and even if the comments do not get acted upon quickly, you can tell that the idea mills around and eventually gets implemented in a watered down way, two years later.
Instead what for-profit businesses tend to do is a 10% "across the board" office layoff, where every team needs to cut 10%+ of people every 5-8 years, or whatever % headcount creep had occurred since the last cycle. Some do this through attrition "freezes". Trying to avoid this is the root cause of so many government contracts.
Post by: Zoot Allures on December 02, 2014, 08:16:00 PM
I discoved one team was creating databases that housed data they got from another office. They "did stuff" with the data and sent it back over a FTP site. Turns out the other office was just delating the stuff they got back because they had no need for it. No one knew why they were manipulating the data and sending it back. When I pointed out to their managers that 4 people work 40 hours each on a process that goes no where they were irate. Not because of wasted years but "well what are they going to do now?" the had them keep doing the process until they found something new. Worst part was one of the guys knew what was going on and didnt care. He was ok doing 100% nonsense for 40 hours a week and acting stressed out like he cant handle anymore workload.
That is some Dilbert-esque, Kafka-esque shit right there.
I've had four different positions during the seven years I've been with my organization, and each time I made a change, my motivation was the same: I wanted to feel more useful at work. This year I got a promotion and would now describe myself as uncomfortably busy most of the time, which I prefer to how I've felt in the past. I'm not a workaholic by any means, but my mood is better when I'm productive at work. In my previous positions, I invariably got bored and developed a shitty attitude as a result. Also--and this is the most dangerous thing about boredom in my opinion--I feel that my IQ drops with each hour at work I spend doing nothing. I've tried working on personal creative projects during my down time, but I can't seem to activate that part of my brain when I'm at the office.
I don't love what I do for work, nor do I personally identify with it. But I at least want to end my day feeling like I used my skills. The danger of being excessively idle at work is that your brain might get used to it.
Post by: Spondulix on December 02, 2014, 09:39:15 PM
Post by: MsRichLife on December 02, 2014, 11:07:15 PM
I just had a flashback to a job I had years ago - I worked for a company who's owner who was highly ADD. He would hire me to come in extra hours, because having me around "helped him focus." I didn't do much but sit in the room with him, listen to him talk, and ask him questions when he'd get off task. So I wonder if it's a matter of perspective, sometimes... they earned a lot more money as a result of the owner finishing tasks vs what they were paying me!
I had a boss like that. Extreme extrovert that need to be talking to do any thinking. He'd often buy me coffee and then we'd spend the hour or so with him talking and me asking him questions here and there. Even though we've both moved on to other jobs he'll still call me up every few months and buy me a coffee so he can work through a problem he's struggling with. I wish I could make this a full-time gig. I love listening to people talk about their problems and just ask the really obvious (to me) questions and see the lightbulb go on.
Post by: goodlife on December 02, 2014, 11:42:11 PM
I have this same problem as well. I consider myself very efficient at my job and get things done quickly while others take longer. It also sucks because my cube is in a high traffic area so it is not as easy to simply surf the web. Many times I have to wait to get a response back from someone before I can continue along and that causes more idle time. I usually keep a "spreadsheet" on so to make it appear I am working so no one thinks I am lazy when in reality I am just very efficient. I am always happy to help others and always seeking out projects but there is a good chunk of idle time. Sometimes I also just go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet for awhile and play on my phone.
This made me laugh. I had this colleague at my previous job who was always super stressed out and constantly frazzled....while really not doing anything. She sat right next to me and I noticed that whenever she went to the toilet, she would come back like 30min or 45min later. It's not possible to exit the building or go anywhere else from the toilet....she would have had to pass our section of the floor again. So I actually started to worry if she is ill or something is seriously wrong with her. So once when she went to the toilet and didn't come back, I went to the toilet as well...in the stall next to her...and I heard the i-phone clicking and game noises....so yah...she would spend like 2h a day in the toilet playing i-phone games, lol!
Post by: Spondulix on December 02, 2014, 11:44:12 PM
I wish I could make this a full-time gig. I love listening to people talk about their problems and just ask the really obvious (to me) questions and see the lightbulb go on.Me too!
Post by: goodlife on December 02, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
Just remember the forum you're on. Most of us here are INTJ people who live efficiency.
Interesting, I never realized a lot of people here are INTJ, I guess there is something to it. I have taken that test so many times and it always comes out as either INTJ or ENTJ.
Post by: goodlife on December 02, 2014, 11:52:08 PM
I've been thinking about this whole idea a lot lately given that I'm in a bit of a quandary. I currently make around $120K/yr and do, on the high end, about 2 hours of work a day. I ask for more work, but no one gives it to me. Moreover, my supervisor pushed for my position to be added, and he's the only one who would really know how much work I do, so I don't want to address it with anyone else in the company.
I've been approached for a new position with a company that's 3 minutes from my house (as opposed to my current position which is 40 minutes away). The salary will probably be the same or slightly higher and there will be a bigger workload with more interesting work, but I may end up working 10-11/hr days again which I'd rather not do. My current job is 9-5, $120k/yr, and five weeks vacation. Not sure that I want to give that up for something unknown even though I'm a bit bored.
Thoughts?
I had a very similar problem...actually my job paid even more than $120k...but I quit. Boredom was just so untolerable to me. Yes, I am still bored in my new job too...but not as bad as the old job, that one was seriously killing me slowly. They had hired me for a newly created position, but after about 2 months I realized that there is just not enough work to go around, I was trying to get work from other people on the team, but nobody wanted to give me much. Then after another 6 months or so they announced that they just got headcount approved for yet another person and we were starting to interview people. That was the nail in the coffin so to speak, I resigned 2 months later.
Of course I found an equally paying job with much better other perks subsequently....but if you really think your current job is as good as it gets and you can tolerate it, then I guess it's fine. 5 weeks vacation is not bad too, but that's probably also negotiable...I have 32 days vacation now plus 10 public holidays. And I will take every single one of them, haha!
Post by: AgileTurtle on December 03, 2014, 06:06:25 AM
Somehow I can't help but forsee that, despite the waste, the $100k "look busy" people will be just fine as the economy worsens while the working class will end up on the B ark.
From personal experience I think you are right. When I was a process reviewer and submitted my findings I would have VP tell me that if someone is making that much they must be doing something right and their skills can be quantified. (This may be true in some cases). They would lay off the $10/hr people and try to automate their job or higher someone for $8/hr and try to make them work harder. The super funny thing was some of the really high paid people were the $10/hr people who managed to get multiple promotions because of turnover. They didnt learn any new skills and provided less value then they did when they were cheap workers. Some just sat in their office and looked stressed all day and did next to zero work. Big corporations are the funniest places ever.
Post by: FarmerPete on December 03, 2014, 08:08:13 AM
So two years ago, I took a server administrator job for state government. Worse, job, ever. I went from making 44k to now making 66k in just two years. I'll cap out at $81k in 27 more months. Then it'll be annual 1-2% raises after that, assuming I don't apply for a higher level job. If I had stayed with my old company, I would have never gotten more than the 1-2% raises again. Over my last 3 years working there, I had gotten an $0.08 raise after I calculated CPI. My new job has a great 401k/457 plan. I get 17 vacation days a year and 13 sick days. My insurance is better and costs me $1.5k less a year. The jobs are equal distance from my house. So what's the problem? There is NO WORK TO DO. We have a team of 4 people to do the work that 1 person could be bored to death doing.
Just to put this in perspective...at my last company, there were 5 network administrators who did 100% of the support for the entire companies server infrastructure. They managed 500 servers. They did all the backups, email, active directory, vmware, etc. At my new job, we have a team of 5 people to support 200 servers. BUT, every possible task that can be consolidated has been. So there is a backup team to deal with the backups. There is a SAN team to deal with the storage. There is a VMWare team to handle the hosts. There is a Symantec team to handle the antivirus. So what do we do? We grant temporary admin rights to the servers, occasionally reboot them, restart services, patch the servers quarterly, install a certificate here and there, and "monitor" the servers. To put a number on it, we get on average, maybe 2 requests a day for 5 people. All of the monitoring is automated. I AM BORED OUT OF MY SKULL!
The problem with my current job though, is that it's comfortable, easy, and secure. The boredom was REALLY bad when I first started. It's less of an issue now. You just kind of get used to it. There are 4-5 other teams just like mine here. They are all similarly staffed. They all like to complain about being busy, but if you walk down the cube hall, you'll see a mix of Facebook, YouTube, forums, book reading, candy crush, etc. When I first started, I was paranoid about people seeing my computer screen, but really, no one cares. Even if they did, they couldn't fire you for it. It's virtually impossible to get fired from this place. I had a coworker showing up intoxicated and he repeatedly no-call/no-showed for months. He then took 3 months of forced FMLA to get "cleaned up". He missed deadlines for paperwork and whatnot. He was eventually in jail for a month after getting his 3rd DUI. Guess what, he's still in his cube now playing Candy Crush. I'd say that 90% of the terminations that do happen here end up in wrongful termination suites where the fired wins. That's why they don't try to fire anyone.
I've thought about leaving, but really, in my area, it would be hard to find a similar job making +80k. Also, every day that I'm here, I feel like i'm getting -Experience. It's like the desire to learn and excel is being sucked out of me. I'm seriously a little frightened about it.
Post by: SporeSpawn on December 03, 2014, 08:47:51 AM
The very bottom line is: are you accomplishing that which you are paid to do? If you are paid to serve clients, are your clients leaving satisfied and likely to return? If you are paid to make a part, is that part finished, properly constructed, and ready to be shipped? If you are paid to make me a hamburger, is that hamburger ready to go in my hands, safe and enjoyable to eat?
I'm not worried about my employees checking their email, going for a walk, or even napping during slow hours provided that they fulfill their end of the unspoken contract (of course, that's what break rooms are for, not the floor itself). Because the contract does not stipulate "You should LOOK like you are doing the work specified to you." It says "You should DO the work that is specified to you." It's my job to ensure you have work to do. If you do that work, you have fulfilled the contract. If you do not, then you can look, act, and say you are a good worker all you want, but you are dragging my organization down. You are not working.
Post by: 202009 on December 03, 2014, 08:58:37 AM
I am in a mid to senior Finance role leading a team of 6 professionals in a large company. I make ~$125k/year and the total amount of *actual* work I do is less than 2 hours a day. There are times during the year where I work longer hours, but if I had to add up the total days where I’ve worked a full day it’s probably less than 4 weeks out of the year.
The really strange part is that this is a repeat pattern from job to job and it has been worrying me. I am not lazy, all my work is done on time despite being a procrastinator in some cases (especially when bored). I meet my deadlines, I motivate my team to the best of my ability, and I get good reviews from all of my employers, which is what has allowed me to get to where I am in 6 years post undergrad.
I still struggle with understanding what is it that other people do to be so stressed or to have such a hard time keeping up, or am I not doing enough? I don’t think I am smarter than them, I know I manage my time fairly well and am very resourceful in general, but I still don’t understand how my work is done in 20% of the time and better compared to the people I replaced. When applying for this job I knew I was replacing someone who had worked 12-14 hour days and he burnt out and was eventually fired. Not a job most would be willing to take, but the risk/reward for me was there especially while in my late 20’s. The first 6 months were very tough, not because the work in itself was challenging, but because the senior management was extremely demanding and would lead with an iron fist. After proving my abilities over time and pushing back on unreasonable deadlines and trying to shield my team from the b.s. and unnecessarily long hours I learned how to manage them and since then it has been a breeze. So to conclude, while we can all do more at our jobs, be it process improvement, or whatever I think it comes down to how we handle stress and how well we can cope under pressure. Those of us who work well under pressure are probably the ones that also have a ton of free time in our days.
Post by: lielec11 on December 03, 2014, 09:15:12 AM
Hey! I am an acting Bob for a project right now - an electrical utility.
Just try to point out that they have 8 non-operatiosl "desk" employees (engineers, managers, for example) for every foreman and "production" employee on the operations / logistics site. (this is not even head office) It does not go over very well! Hits dead ears.
As an electrical engineer I have to deal with the local utilities on occasion and it is always a nightmare. For example, in order to do a proper short circuit study I need basic information from the utility as a starting point. This is information they already have calculated and is readily available. In order to get this information, I need to first email the right person in management (phone calls never get picked up). If it's the wrong person, no one bothers to give you the courtesy of simply clicking "forward". After the right person receives the email, they then have to go to "engineering" to get the information. Again, this is readily available, but they make it a point to tell you it will take 4-6 weeks. After engineering finally gets the info, it has to be reviewed by management and then the regional director. All for one line of text information!
Post by: P1 on December 03, 2014, 05:44:36 PM
Post by: umterp1999 on December 03, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
This is me and my members of my department. I tend to bang out tasks quickly. I am efficient with emails, and phone calls. I get right to the point. If there is a problem, I focus on solutions. I make decisions. My colleagues waste time writing long emails, writing two paragraphs when two sentences suffice, using the reply all button, having to run every little thing by supervisors, and wanting to have a meeting to address every little thing. The sheer volume of meetings they hold is mind boggling. Most of them are filled with total bullshit such as planning for meetings or discussing other meetings that they have attended. We seriously have meetings to plan meetings. Last year I kept track of the number of hours of meetings I attended from September to the end of January, and my total was over 40 hours. A whole week's worth. Oh yea I was out 3.5 weeks on paternity leave. When I pointed this out to my colleagues, I became labeled a malcontent in their eyes.
Oh yea I also show up to work everyday on time, and rarely take leave. My colleagues struggle to make it through a whole week without taking a few hours, here there. They sign up for every single training or meeting outside of the building, then complain they can never get anything done. And then they make snide comments to me that I leave at three every day (which is when we are allowed to go) as if I am slacking because I dont stay until 5 or 6.
Funny thing is, I have recieved several different awards, I have nothing but outstanding reviews and all the supervisors have shared with me how much they appreciate me, and I have even been encouraged to move into management (though I have little interest because it would mean many more hours at work).
Post by: goodlife on December 03, 2014, 06:29:56 PM
It's like the desire to learn and excel is being sucked out of me. I'm seriously a little frightened about it.
This is exactly how I feel as well. It's as if all this boredom is slowly messing up my mind or something. I used to be very interested in learning new things and being proactive, but somehow this boredom is really sucking that out of me like you said. I am not naturally lazy at all, quite the opposite, but these types of jobs I feel are really not good for one's well-being long term. It frightens me too.
Post by: RootofGood on December 03, 2014, 07:32:04 PM
Then there are the walkers. I live near another DOT facility, and routinely see employees walking through my neighborhood from the DOT office. Probably a 30+ minute loop. They do it almost every day as I see them out walking while I'm out getting some exercise too. They even have walking trails explicitly for this purpose at one facility. I had to ask "what's with the stream of people heading off into the woods?". Oh, they are walking.
I'm as guilty as my coworkers I'll admit. Just not much pressure to get stuff done or get it done correctly, and if you do try hard, you get push back from those saying you're working too hard and making the slackers look bad.
I recall hearing from a senior manager in another group: "Wow, I've never had anyone so detail oriented like this. You actually follow up on to do items, create meeting minutes, set up follow ups, and push for progress each month." This guy had been at the DOT for 30 years and I was the first guy that had done anything apparently. I believe it. The issue still wasn't resolved when I got fired. :) Not my problem any more.
Post by: Spondulix on December 04, 2014, 02:14:28 AM
I still struggle with understanding what is it that other people do to be so stressed or to have such a hard time keeping up, or am I not doing enough? I don’t think I am smarter than them, I know I manage my time fairly well and am very resourceful in general, but I still don’t understand how my work is done in 20% of the time and better compared to the people I replaced. When applying for this job I knew I was replacing someone who had worked 12-14 hour days and he burnt out and was eventually fired. Not a job most would be willing to take, but the risk/reward for me was there especially while in my late 20’s. The first 6 months were very tough, not because the work in itself was challenging, but because the senior management was extremely demanding and would lead with an iron fist.My company regularly hires temp employees to do the same job that I do. I'm very lucky to get to see how other people work (through training), and it really shocked me that the majority just don't get it! It comes so easily to me and I just assumed it was easy for other people in my field (or, some people understood it, but couldn't handle the tasks fast enough). So, I think it's like what SporeSpawn said - if you're getting the job done and don't take away management's time/attention, then they are happy. Now I just accept that I was the right fit for the job!
Post by: NickydŁg on December 04, 2014, 04:08:19 AM
The strange thing is, people regularly tell me I get through a lot of work and in the 4 years I have been here have been promoted 4 times...
I do now get to work from home regularly and to be honest, as long as I'm logged on, I spend the day doing household chores (I put the Christmas tree up yesterday, and previously spray painted a coffee table!), watching DVDs or reading.
I am essentially pretty lazy so when I do have work I get it done fast - but well - so I can go back to doing nothing. And that is the reason why I wat to be FIREd.
Post by: shelivesthedream on December 04, 2014, 06:28:49 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
Edit: finger slipped early onto 'post'... Because I am doing this on my phone at work!
THIS. I am Mr Net-Surf but I have worked with SO many people who make a mountain out of a molehill and I DO think it makes then worse employees. They create work for everyone else by being slow and needing to check stuff all the time. They create a stressful atmosphere because they are always stressed because they create work for themselves. They also create this expectation that things take five times as long as they actually do which makes people question my results because they are fast - although I am invariably 99% right in half the time - is the extra time really worth it? It also drives me nuts to watch them be so inefficient/spend so much time chatting to coworkers when if we all buckled down and did what was necessary fast, we could go home at lunchtime. Unfortunately efficiency is not rewarded.
Post by: Schaefer Light on December 04, 2014, 07:31:01 AM
So you had 40 hours of meetings in roughly 4 months of time at your workplace. That would be a light meeting schedule at my workplace. I've already got 8.5 hours worth of meetings on my calendar for next week, and I'm sure it will be more like 10 or 12 when it's all said and done. And my calendar is pretty light compared to a lot of people's. What that tells me is those people don't have much real work to do. If they did, they wouldn't have time for all those meetings.
This is me and my members of my department. I tend to bang out tasks quickly. I am efficient with emails, and phone calls. I get right to the point. If there is a problem, I focus on solutions. I make decisions. My colleagues waste time writing long emails, writing two paragraphs when two sentences suffice, using the reply all button, having to run every little thing by supervisors, and wanting to have a meeting to address every little thing. The sheer volume of meetings they hold is mind boggling. Most of them are filled with total bullshit such as planning for meetings or discussing other meetings that they have attended. We seriously have meetings to plan meetings. Last year I kept track of the number of hours of meetings I attended from September to the end of January, and my total was over 40 hours. A whole week's worth. Oh yea I was out 3.5 weeks on paternity leave. When I pointed this out to my colleagues, I became labeled a malcontent in their eyes.
Post by: Pooperman on December 04, 2014, 08:49:57 AM
Post by: cpa cat on December 04, 2014, 09:07:27 AM
But at my current job, it's the complete opposite environment. Efficiency is downright unwelcome. There's a perverse system of disincentives to work. I'm glad that I don't sit in the bathroom just to escape my desk anymore - but I could probably sit in the bathroom all day and no one would notice.
I've decided to make plans for self-employment - before my work ethic is completely destroyed and I'm sucked into a black hole of mediocrity.
Post by: rujancified on December 04, 2014, 09:16:28 AM
I am essentially pretty lazy so when I do have work I get it done fast - but well - so I can go back to doing nothing. And that is the reason why I wat to be FIREd.
Love this. I'm the same. I'll spend hours/days automating a task so that it saves me the 5 or 10 minutes the task used to take.
Always thought this was hilarious: http://xkcd.com/1205/
Post by: OutBy40 on December 04, 2014, 09:24:47 AM
I used to work at a place where 10 to 12 hour days were expected, but I'm not subjecting myself to that any longer (and haven't for the past couple of years). Work just isn't worth all that added stress, and no paycheck in the world would get me to put my health and well-being in jeopardy just so I can roll around in a bunch of money.
I'm still fairly young (33), but I know what buys happiness for me - and it ain't money. It is the ability to enjoy my time all day, every day. If I can get my work done quickly and move on to other things, I will. When I have to put in the occasional 10 hour day, I do that as well. But, the keyword there is occasional.
I think too many people believe that if you aren't busy during the day, then your job either isn't important or you suck at what you do. While either of these certainly may be true (and I've seen a LOT of it working at several government installations around the country), it is entirely possible that some people prioritize efficiency of what they do over the time it takes to do it.
The key, though - when you find yourself without much to do, find something productive to spend your time doing. Learn. Plan your finances for the month. Finally schedule that doctor's appointment that you've been pushing off.
...find a way to keep yourself productive, both with work and your personal life.
Post by: OutBy40 on December 04, 2014, 09:27:46 AM
I work in a clerical job that can be mind-numbingly boring and often I don't have enough work to even remotely fill the day. MMM, Fark.com and my own writing projects save my sanity. With the latter, it actually gives the appearance that I'm working.
You have found a way to make yourself productive even if your work-related duties aren't exactly heavy. Yeah, that IS how sanity prevails.
Post by: jba302 on December 04, 2014, 10:54:37 AM
So you had 40 hours of meetings in roughly 4 months of time at your workplace. That would be a light meeting schedule at my workplace. I've already got 8.5 hours worth of meetings on my calendar for next week, and I'm sure it will be more like 10 or 12 when it's all said and done. And my calendar is pretty light compared to a lot of people's. What that tells me is those people don't have much real work to do. If they did, they wouldn't have time for all those meetings.
I couldn't deal with that. My team seems to be closing in on this though. We all sit in the same area (there's 4 of us, at a normal voice level we don't have to move and have discussions), and I seem to have 3-4 meetings a week with my team in one of the meeting rooms. So the 4 of us will be talking about something, stand up, walk down the hall, then continue talking about the same thing because it's meeting time. Drives me absolutely nuts but no one seems to understand why.
Post by: seanc0x0 on December 05, 2014, 07:24:05 AM
In my industry, meetings are necessary (like 1 hour per week kind of thing per client). Other than that, most other meetings are pointless. We don't do pointless meetings here. It's either for client questions (i.e. THEY make more work for us which they pay for) or for project hand-off (person A is going onto another project so person B needs to get up to speed). There's always a weekly departmental meeting for managers and that kind of thing, but meetings are very rare unless you are a manager on a lot of projects (1 hour a week x 8 projects = 1 day a week). We are required to log 40 hours a week, so during the more idle times (Nov -Jan), we get lots of time to "learn" things and surf the web/post of MMM :).
I hate pointless meetings. The first company I worked for out of university put me on a project that was behind schedule when I started. They had daily status meetings for the project that usually ran 1 to 1.5 hours, and everyone on the project was required to attend. No wonder the project was behind.
Post by: OutBy40 on December 05, 2014, 07:29:56 AM
I hate pointless meetings. The first company I worked for out of university put me on a project that was behind schedule when I started. They had daily status meetings for the project that usually ran 1 to 1.5 hours, and everyone on the project was required to attend. No wonder the project was behind.
Wow. Looks like the place you worked at was bastardizing the whole "Agile" development process. Daily meetings happen, but they aren't supposed to last more than 5 or 10 minutes. What a horrible waste of time daily 1+ hour meetings are.
Post by: YTProphet on December 05, 2014, 07:35:22 AM
In my industry, meetings are necessary (like 1 hour per week kind of thing per client). Other than that, most other meetings are pointless. We don't do pointless meetings here. It's either for client questions (i.e. THEY make more work for us which they pay for) or for project hand-off (person A is going onto another project so person B needs to get up to speed). There's always a weekly departmental meeting for managers and that kind of thing, but meetings are very rare unless you are a manager on a lot of projects (1 hour a week x 8 projects = 1 day a week). We are required to log 40 hours a week, so during the more idle times (Nov -Jan), we get lots of time to "learn" things and surf the web/post of MMM :).
I hate pointless meetings. The first company I worked for out of university put me on a project that was behind schedule when I started. They had daily status meetings for the project that usually ran 1 to 1.5 hours, and everyone on the project was required to attend. No wonder the project was behind.
That would drive me insane. I have no idea how you put up with that.
Post by: FarmerPete on December 05, 2014, 07:47:30 AM
Post by: NickydŁg on December 05, 2014, 10:33:44 AM
I am essentially pretty lazy so when I do have work I get it done fast - but well - so I can go back to doing nothing. And that is the reason why I wat to be FIREd.
Love this. I'm the same. I'll spend hours/days automating a task so that it saves me the 5 or 10 minutes the task used to take.
Always thought this was hilarious: http://xkcd.com/1205/
Love it!
Post by: NickydŁg on December 05, 2014, 10:36:12 AM
For days when I work at home, I bought one of these. http://www.amazon.com/Wiebetech-Mouse-Jiggler-Slow-Version/dp/B000O3S0PK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1417790733&sr=8-2&keywords=jiggler BEST MONEY SPENT EVER. I just set my laptop up on a table near my seat and "monitor" incoming emails/IMs. Works great. It keeps the screensaver from kicking in and I appear to be active on our IM client. The computer sees it as just a regular external mouse. So worth it.
I AM SO GETTING THIS!!!
Post by: MillenialMustache on December 05, 2014, 02:59:26 PM
For me, a 'super' hour (being totally focussed) is worth 2 - 3 'normal' hours. I know that a '12 hour day' is not something I will have unless technology fucks me over (it'll happen a couple times a year). I can finish 12 hours of normal work in my normal schedule. I'll just not be very happy when I go home that night. I know how to be efficient when I need to be. Thankfully my desk is in a super awesome place (back against the wall, no one behind me, no one next to me except maybe 1x per week). I will say I've learned how to run a household and work at the same time. I've got about 2-3 'super' hours of work to do each day right now. I try to cut it off at about 5 'super' hours of work (I.e. 10 normal hours). Gives me enough time to do my job while still fucking around enough to not stress too much. I know a couple people at work who are always perfectionists. They always work 10 hour days and have 'so much' to do.
Just remember the forum you're on. Most of us here are INTJ people who live efficiency. Personally I'm either focused and working or I'm not focused and not working, so i only work in 'super' hours and procrastinate the rest of the time.
This is really interesting and I have never thought about it before. I am ENTJ, the only difference being more extroverted than introverted. It is interesting that many on this forum have similar personalities.
Post by: Workinghard on December 05, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
I am essentially pretty lazy so when I do have work I get it done fast - but well - so I can go back to doing nothing. And that is the reason why I wat to be FIREd.
Love this. I'm the same. I'll spend hours/days automating a task so that it saves me the 5 or 10 minutes the task used to take.
Always thought this was hilarious: http://xkcd.com/1205/
I don't know about days, but I will definitely spend hours to save time. For instance I have to document teaching when I see patients. I made up a word doc with all my teaching in it, so all I have to do is copy and paste it into my nursing notes. If you are teaching a patient about a certain medication, or a blood clot, it's the same teaching regardless. This saves so much time and I don't have to think about what I want to say or how to say it. When we went to the computer documention, and I was training people, I told them about being able to set up a teaching doc. Most everyone didn't want to mess with creating their own document. Unbelievable as it saves so much time.
Post by: jba302 on December 08, 2014, 12:58:19 PM
Post by: Cheddar Stacker on December 08, 2014, 02:48:55 PM
http://www.bravenewlife.com/06/the-pareto-strategy-to-maximize-leisure-time/
Post by: jexy103 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
This is me. I spent 1.5 years as one of four secretaries in a very busy office. After I was there four months, one secretary left and I was tasked with her job to do in addition to mine (which I was happy about, since I probably only worked 1-3 hours a day before that). Even doing two jobs (for over a year due to the federal hiring freeze), I was still bored 2-3 hours a day. I would read MMM and Mad FIentist and work on schoolwork for my MBA. Being a secretary, I was tied to my phone all day, so no cutting out early or leaving when the job was done. The people I worked with were great, but I was largely unsatisfied with my job.
In July, I started a new position in the same company but a different department. Night and day difference. I now have the option of working my 40 hours in 9 days instead of 10, so I get a three-day weekend every other week. I come in at start time, work my 9 hours, and leave at the end of the day feeling satisfied with the amount of work I accomplished in the day. Some days I feel like I have a lot piled on me, but other day I have some slow time to do some required training for my new field. Even when another employee left after two months, leaving me with two jobs to do (seems to be a common trend), I'm rarely stressed and rarely bored. I love it!
Post by: MB1443 on December 09, 2014, 04:40:07 AM
Post by: MB1443 on December 09, 2014, 04:46:53 AM
Post by: myteafix on December 09, 2014, 08:13:01 AM
As a supervisor, the way I look at work is this: I pay you to fulfill a set of tasks and responsibilities. If you do so by physically staying motion every second of the eight hours you are assigned to perform that set in, then I am satisfied. If you do so by taking a coffee break at 12:30 and playing Angry Birds on your phone from 2:30 to 3:15, I am satisfied.
The very bottom line is: are you accomplishing that which you are paid to do? If you are paid to serve clients, are your clients leaving satisfied and likely to return? If you are paid to make a part, is that part finished, properly constructed, and ready to be shipped? If you are paid to make me a hamburger, is that hamburger ready to go in my hands, safe and enjoyable to eat?
I'm not worried about my employees checking their email, going for a walk, or even napping during slow hours provided that they fulfill their end of the unspoken contract (of course, that's what break rooms are for, not the floor itself). Because the contract does not stipulate "You should LOOK like you are doing the work specified to you." It says "You should DO the work that is specified to you." It's my job to ensure you have work to do. If you do that work, you have fulfilled the contract. If you do not, then you can look, act, and say you are a good worker all you want, but you are dragging my organization down. You are not working.
Good philosophy to have. I wish more people were like you.
Just remember the forum you're on. Most of us here are INTJ people who live efficiency.
Interesting, I never realized a lot of people here are INTJ, I guess there is something to it. I have taken that test so many times and it always comes out as either INTJ or ENTJ.
I'm an INFJ. Stranger in a strange land, I guess.
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on December 09, 2014, 08:45:20 AM
For days when I work at home, I bought one of these. http://www.amazon.com/Wiebetech-Mouse-Jiggler-Slow-Version/dp/B000O3S0PK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1417790733&sr=8-2&keywords=jiggler BEST MONEY SPENT EVER. I just set my laptop up on a table near my seat and "monitor" incoming emails/IMs. Works great. It keeps the screensaver from kicking in and I appear to be active on our IM client. The computer sees it as just a regular external mouse. So worth it.
Thank you!
I got one of these for my wife. She works from home and if she leaves her computer for 5 minutes it logs her off.
We got the jiggler last night and after one and half hours of not touching keyboard/mouse, she was still logged in.
Post by: MMMdude on December 09, 2014, 12:49:57 PM
Anyways they recently added people to my department (and above me) while only adding abit more work - all while being passed over for a promotion. So it'll be even slower for me going forward. Part of me thinks, fuck it i'll just screw the dog til i possibly get let go (and get a nice payout) while the other part is just dying inside most days wondering why I have to sit at a desk and look busy for eight hours a day. Well, make that 9 as we are forced to take an hour lunch - something i've asked them to change for us, but they refuse because the company I work for generally has HR policies from medieval times. I occasionally look for something new but realistically it would be hard to match my existing salary with something similar at this time, but I"m nearly FI so I should really make the move.
To kill time I re-work my retirement spreadsheets about a million times a day, surf the net on my phone with the wifi there and read some investment docs that I email to myself. I also believe more than half the people working there put in 2-3 hours of real work in the day and the rest is look busy mode.
Post by: babysnowbyrd on December 09, 2014, 07:17:08 PM
I'm more useful now, but my mornings are generally slower. I prepare shipping documents and as production has ramped up a lot within the last few months, I'm here later and later in the evening. The thing is that my job depends entirely on when a lot of other jobs are done, but needs to be done immediately once everyone else has finished. After 5pm I have a lot more leeway. I'm not expected to "play busy" when my stuff is done so I can do personal stuff a little more "guilt-free."
It's nice to be able to get some stuff done during work, but other times I wish I was more useful. And sometimes I'm way more into reading MMM than actual work so when an important task does come up I find that I'm irritated to have to do it. Not so good overall. I look forward to the time when I can be FI too.
Post by: retired? on December 10, 2014, 09:39:31 AM
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
I think "needing" to find fillers is exactly what causes stress for the more efficient workers. They know how little they work (albeit, getting the job done)but are conscientious and feel bad. Being idle simply looks bad.....you aren't adding value during those times.
What do we expect a manager to do when he/she understands an employee gets a job done in half the time that another team member does? Reasonable actions would be:
1) Let the efficient employee go home. Or, at worst, have them stay if something comes up, but have an understanding with them that they can do as they please (e.g. read, surf web, exercise etc.).
2) Pay them more and add work to fill their time.
I think mgr's are reluctant to do either. "Bill, where's Tom, I never see him after 2pm?" Now Bill has to explain that the work can really be done in 5 hours instead of 8+ hours. "Well, geez, we are paying him a salary to work full time, let's fill up his plate." That only works if you are willing to pay Tom more. If Tom doesn't expect to get paid more, he'll fake it.
I had one former co-worker who did get stuff done and was lucky enough to have a manager that understood he was more efficient. He was, but the others were also inefficient.....taking a mid-day run each day, talking sports for 2 hours each day. In reality, the job only took 5 hours. The co-worker religiously stood up at about 2pm and said "ok, well I guess it's Miller Time". Others stayed another 3 hours or so.
Post by: mak1277 on December 10, 2014, 09:50:08 AM
I think "needing" to find fillers is exactly what causes stress for the more efficient workers. They know how little they work (albeit, getting the job done)but are conscientious and feel bad. Being idle simply looks bad.....you aren't adding value during those times.
Not all of us. I'd much rather be idle and surf the net than do actual work. I put off my real work as long as possible and then get it done under threat of a deadline.
Post by: retired? on December 10, 2014, 10:03:49 AM
I think "needing" to find fillers is exactly what causes stress for the more efficient workers. They know how little they work (albeit, getting the job done)but are conscientious and feel bad. Being idle simply looks bad.....you aren't adding value during those times.
Not all of us. I'd much rather be idle and surf the net than do actual work. I put off my real work as long as possible and then get it done under threat of a deadline.
Sheeeeettt, me, too, but I'd be worried about being fired, OR since a large part of my total comp was discretionary bonus, fear of getting squat.
Post by: cpa cat on December 10, 2014, 10:55:14 AM
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
Post by: mak1277 on December 10, 2014, 11:00:52 AM
I think "needing" to find fillers is exactly what causes stress for the more efficient workers. They know how little they work (albeit, getting the job done)but are conscientious and feel bad. Being idle simply looks bad.....you aren't adding value during those times.
Not all of us. I'd much rather be idle and surf the net than do actual work. I put off my real work as long as possible and then get it done under threat of a deadline.
Sheeeeettt, me, too, but I'd be worried about being fired, OR since a large part of my total comp was discretionary bonus, fear of getting squat.
In my experience, my work style is feasible only because of two things:
1) I never actually miss a deadline.
2) As MB1443 talked about above, I'm very confident in meetings and other interactions with people at work. Even if I haven't started a project, I"m able to confidently discuss it. The art of BS, really, is one that keeps me going.
I always say, it takes hard work to be as lazy as I am.
Post by: irishbear99 on December 10, 2014, 11:08:05 AM
HAHA!!! This describes my life perfectly! I always finish things very quickly, but that doesn't mean I do it badly, I am just really efficient! My boss on the other hand...FRAZZLED!!!! Always busy busy busy, but never getting anything done. Your email example...spot on...I observed her "composing" an email once...it would have taken me literally 30 seconds: 'Dear X, are you free to meet on this date..."...simple enough, but no, she spent at least 15min composing the email! Just today she wanted me to edit a certain model and was freaking out how long that will take me. I was like wtf lady....it takes like 30min...and that's exactly how long it took. But never mind, I still have to be in the office the whole day...even though only 50% of the time I actually work on things. The rest I am just bored...surfing the net or whatever. Of course that sounds like bliss to some people...but not for me...it's been too long like this. There are some (few) days when I am really challenged all day and have things to work on. Those are the days that I am happiest at work...because I am not bored.
LOL. I had to check the name on this post to see if it was mine and I just didn't remember responding. This describes my day to a T, especially the part about the busy days being the happiest.
Post by: agent13x on December 10, 2014, 01:30:54 PM
Wish I had to fake work. I run a batch process unit in a chemical plant using an Emerson DCS. I monitor 16 screens for a 12 hour shift. The system is poorly programed and the instrumentation has constant problems. At times I get 100 or more alarms an hour.
You can see this same problem happen in the infosec field where companies buy all these vendor security products and then overwhelm themselves with alerts. The tools need to be tuned to get rid of the false positives so that when an alert fires, you know it's real. You should only have a few alerts per shift, not 100's per hour.
Post by: agent13x on December 10, 2014, 01:48:08 PM
So two years ago, I took a server administrator job for state government. Worse, job, ever. I went from making 44k to now making 66k in just two years. I'll cap out at $81k in 27 more months. Then it'll be annual 1-2% raises after that, assuming I don't apply for a higher level job. If I had stayed with my old company, I would have never gotten more than the 1-2% raises again. Over my last 3 years working there, I had gotten an $0.08 raise after I calculated CPI. My new job has a great 401k/457 plan. I get 17 vacation days a year and 13 sick days. My insurance is better and costs me $1.5k less a year. The jobs are equal distance from my house. So what's the problem? There is NO WORK TO DO. We have a team of 4 people to do the work that 1 person could be bored to death doing.
Just to put this in perspective...at my last company, there were 5 network administrators who did 100% of the support for the entire companies server infrastructure. They managed 500 servers. They did all the backups, email, active directory, vmware, etc. At my new job, we have a team of 5 people to support 200 servers. BUT, every possible task that can be consolidated has been. So there is a backup team to deal with the backups. There is a SAN team to deal with the storage. There is a VMWare team to handle the hosts. There is a Symantec team to handle the antivirus. So what do we do? We grant temporary admin rights to the servers, occasionally reboot them, restart services, patch the servers quarterly, install a certificate here and there, and "monitor" the servers. To put a number on it, we get on average, maybe 2 requests a day for 5 people. All of the monitoring is automated. I AM BORED OUT OF MY SKULL!
The problem with my current job though, is that it's comfortable, easy, and secure. The boredom was REALLY bad when I first started. It's less of an issue now. You just kind of get used to it. There are 4-5 other teams just like mine here. They are all similarly staffed. They all like to complain about being busy, but if you walk down the cube hall, you'll see a mix of Facebook, YouTube, forums, book reading, candy crush, etc. When I first started, I was paranoid about people seeing my computer screen, but really, no one cares. Even if they did, they couldn't fire you for it. It's virtually impossible to get fired from this place. I had a coworker showing up intoxicated and he repeatedly no-call/no-showed for months. He then took 3 months of forced FMLA to get "cleaned up". He missed deadlines for paperwork and whatnot. He was eventually in jail for a month after getting his 3rd DUI. Guess what, he's still in his cube now playing Candy Crush. I'd say that 90% of the terminations that do happen here end up in wrongful termination suites where the fired wins. That's why they don't try to fire anyone.
I've thought about leaving, but really, in my area, it would be hard to find a similar job making +80k. Also, every day that I'm here, I feel like i'm getting -Experience. It's like the desire to learn and excel is being sucked out of me. I'm seriously a little frightened about it.
You are not alone. In fact, we are currently in very similar positions. I currently work in a government job where I can't be fired. I could make more elsewhere, but why? My current time off, stability, insurance, benefits, pension are better than what I can get elsewhere. I keep in touch with guys who've left and while they are making more, they are also working more hours and a few of them have openly said they want to come back. But we're not hiring. I often discuss with my wife about leaving for a better paying job with more work to do, but she brings me back to reality every time. It's better to be bored, stable, and making enough vs being stressed out and working long hours for just a couple thousand more per year. It's not worth it.
So here I am, boredly dreaming of one day hitting FI. But not too soon, because I need to stick around long enough to get my pension to a decent amount. I'll see you around. Are you also in Nebraska, FarmerPete?
Post by: Numbers Man on December 10, 2014, 02:08:39 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
Yep, Facetime seems to be more important than production these days. I've seen the Facetime factor pay out bigger bonuses then to the guys that work their 8 hours and go home. The scary part is that your boss has no idea what time you come into work.
Post by: Milizard on December 10, 2014, 02:09:15 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
Lol
Post by: goodlife on December 10, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
This is so true and I hate it. It doesn't matter how late you come in, as long as people have the impression that you are staying late, you are perceived as hard working. I am a morning person and would love to come in at 7am or earlier every day and then leave in the early afternoon. But of course I can't do that, this would be highly frowned upon and I am sure I would be perceived as a slacker. Staying late...even if I do absolutely nothing...is all that people care for.
Post by: Cheddar Stacker on December 10, 2014, 08:01:36 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
This is so true and I hate it. It doesn't matter how late you come in, as long as people have the impression that you are staying late, you are perceived as hard working. I am a morning person and would love to come in at 7am or earlier every day and then leave in the early afternoon. But of course I can't do that, this would be highly frowned upon and I am sure I would be perceived as a slacker. Staying late...even if I do absolutely nothing...is all that people care for.
You could just go George Costanza style.
I see this both ways. The thing about the late crowd though, sometimes late is like 4 hours late at nite. It's really hard to come in 4 hours early.
Post by: MMMdude on December 10, 2014, 08:43:39 PM
Post by: goodlife on December 10, 2014, 09:59:23 PM
The other thing that drives me nuts is that few want to leave on the actual end of work day schedule, be it 4 or 5 PM. Noone seems to want to be known as one of the first people out the door it seems. I for one am gladly out the door first. Are people really getting shit done in that extra hour every day that can't be deferred until tomorrow? I highly doubt it
I wonder about that too. I don't hate my job, but I always look forward to getting out of the office because I have a lot of other things I want to do. I leave on the dot. I have worked with (and still work with) other people who seem to want to just stick around, even though they do nothing. Sometimes I wonder if there is some reason that they don't want to go home...marriage problems etc....or maybe they just have no hobbies or other interests...so goofing off on the work computer is the same as goofing off on your laptop at home.
Post by: Schaefer Light on December 11, 2014, 06:06:31 AM
I think these are the same people who linger in a conference room for half an hour after the meeting has ended. Me, I'm halfway out the door as soon as the person leading the meeting says "thanks for coming." I want to get back to doing something productive, be it work related or not. I think this is the reason I can get my sh** done without working crazy hours.The other thing that drives me nuts is that few want to leave on the actual end of work day schedule, be it 4 or 5 PM. Noone seems to want to be known as one of the first people out the door it seems. I for one am gladly out the door first. Are people really getting shit done in that extra hour every day that can't be deferred until tomorrow? I highly doubt it
I wonder about that too. I don't hate my job, but I always look forward to getting out of the office because I have a lot of other things I want to do. I leave on the dot. I have worked with (and still work with) other people who seem to want to just stick around, even though they do nothing. Sometimes I wonder if there is some reason that they don't want to go home...marriage problems etc....or maybe they just have no hobbies or other interests...so goofing off on the work computer is the same as goofing off on your laptop at home.
Post by: Daisy on December 11, 2014, 07:40:18 PM
I suppose that's better than the alternative of having someone micromanage me every day to make sure I am producing consistent work. Unfortunately, this is the trend going in software development these days with the new Agile processes. We have daily meetings to discuss status. It's annoying because it's taking me away from my working-in-spurts preference. Oh well, at least I can show some progress on a daily basis by spacing out my updates or making something look like it is progressing when all I did was send one email on the topic the previous day.
FIRE-ing will be a way to get out of this new mode of working in software. It's driving me nuts.
Post by: Daisy on December 11, 2014, 07:47:36 PM
For example, I just moved back into a software development position after working in architecture for a while. There had been an initiative in our department over this past year to get developers tested for certain programming skills. Of course, it was disguised as an effort for people to self-diagnose their programming weak spots and the test scores would not be used for ranking or layoffs or anything. However, if you didn't pass the test, you had to keep retaking it until you did. All of my coworkers continually complained about all of this. Luckily, the architecture group I was in was not required to go through the testing.
However, now I am a developer and my new manager openly mused about whether I should be exempted from going through all of this testing now that I am back in the group. I just sat there and listened. He thought I could get a waiver. Recently, I thought I could use the slow time during the holidays to catch up on some of that retraining (I should already know the stuff) and take the tests while everyone is out for the holidays. I then slapped myself silly and thought why should I even mention this to my boss? Nothing good would come out of me taking these tests after others complained heavily about them. So I will just wait till mid-year next year when they realize I haven't taken the tests. At that point, I will be knee-deep into a project I am leading and they won't want me to spend time taking the tests. I call that a win-win. ;-) That will also be about the time when I can truly assess my very near FIRE date and see how far away from it I really am.
I have a few more PTO days to take before they roll over but I was thinking of taking them in January when everyone is back in the office, and work during the holidays when the office is empty...you know so you can leave early and goof off most of the day. However, the very eager project manager was asking for people's vacation plans over the holidays so that he could see who to assign stuff to while everyone is gone. Solution - I will not be the sucker sticking around with all of the extra work so I will take my days off over the holidays.
Post by: lielec11 on December 12, 2014, 08:29:23 AM
Sheeeeettt
anyone ???
Post by: Luck12 on December 12, 2014, 09:13:33 AM
Sometimes I wonder if they secretly hate me for working 6.5 hour days and leaving hours earlier and coming in hours later than they are. Whatever, I enjoy my long lunches and being able to keep up with my exercise routine and hobbies whilst they are toiling away for the masters.
Post by: Dr. Doom on December 12, 2014, 09:25:26 AM
... two posts
Ahh, Daisy. I enjoyed both of your posts -- yes, Agile and SCRUM (or any other impl of Agile) are going to make the industry more difficult for employees to be happy. They're micromanaging techniques masked in a methodology which promotes ever-increasing productivity and faster release schedules.
For folks that need constant guidance, it may help keep them on track. For self-motivated people who, as you say, prefer to work in spurts, it simply makes work less pleasant, because most of us don't like or need the unceasing supervision.
I also engage in holiday work-avoidance vacation scheduling. One of our teams is doing a big appliance upgrade between Christmas and New Years this year and the work is scheduled to start at 2AM on 2 different nights. They needed a resource from my group. I immediately put the days on the calendar to protect myself from being assigned. Because: I can.
It's so good to be FI. You can construct a work environment that's more pleasant for you (whatever that happens to be) without any fear whatsoever of repercussions. For me, more pleasant = less work off-hours work and most importantly, fewer meetings.
Post by: dude on December 12, 2014, 10:04:55 AM
Post by: dude on December 12, 2014, 10:53:47 AM
Maybe they have never thought of it?
I have thoughts along these lines frequently, too, and I think the above question hits on the most likely answer. If you know FI is a life choice, and this occurs to you while you're still young enough to do something about it, you can plan to get out or at least semi-retire, downshift your career, or move to something else entirely that may pay less but you'd be happier doing. All it really takes is a good handle on your finances and being consistent over time in hitting your savings rate goals. Bam!
The problem is that the top level default financial decision most people make is to blow through everything they earn, in one way or another. Although the concepts around FIRE are not that difficult to pick up, it does require conscious spending and saving. if you're aimlessly buying stuff, you will not 'accidentally' achieve FI unless you hit the lottery or get a large inheritance. (And indeed, even those rare events are not enough for many people to sustain living indefinitely - a lot of people will just tear through ever larger piles of money until they're broke again.)
So here's how things develop for most people. Nearly everyone reflexively builds habitual spending into their lives until they are trapped by a need for their current level of income and must therefore keep grinding it out at work. This produces a paycheck which, in turn, continues to (barely) fund the life they've architected for themselves. People are capable of spending outrageous sums of money, particularly on cars, houses (multiple houses! Or upgrading houses! Or remodeling houses!), and private schools. Thing is, these things generate obligatory monthly outflows: mortgages, leases, contractors, landscapers, tuition. And people convince themselves that those outflows are impossible to put a stop to, for one reason or another.
Let's say you're 50 and you're in the above situation (feeling financially trapped) and you've just found out that FIRE is a possible life option by reading an article about early retirement on Yahoo! At this point in your existence you are much more likely to leave a comment like "THIS ARTICL. IS CRAP, IN AMERICA U WORK 4EVR" than you are to alter one iota of your lifestyle.
And you'll leave this comment while at work, with an 11AM posting time, immediately prior to seeing a CW in the hallway and explaining for the Nth time how incredibly busy you are, now and forever, even though you've done nothing.
Oustanding, Dr. Doom, and I think exactly right.
Post by: libertarian4321 on December 13, 2014, 06:12:41 AM
I now work at home full time and can usually get all of my work done for the day in about an hour.
Dude, don't ruin it for us.
All of us "work from home" types know that we can do as much "work" in 2-3 hours as the average schlub in a cubicle can do in 8. Toss in another hour or two of pointless mandatory meetings, which for us "work at home" types means we have the audio blasting in the background while we work out, cook dinner, contemplate world domination, watch Oprah, masturbate, take a nap, whatever.
But if the corporate types ever figure this out, it will be over for all of us. For them, it's better for us to be at a desk 8 hours a day "cramming" in 1 hour of actual work (while looking harried/stressed and frazzled all day) than be at home doing 3 hours of actual productive work in a relaxed, hassle free environment.
Remember, in corporate America, the APPEARANCE of doing work is far more important than actually doing work.
Back in the day when I was doing the "bright eyed and bushy tailed at the office at 8 AM" drill, I once went three weeks, looking busy as Hell, without doing a lick of actual work. It was the high point of my career. To this day, I still look back in amazement at my ability to look productive for such a long period of time while actually accomplishing nothing of value. I'll never have that sort of youthful vigor again...
Post by: pbkmaine on December 13, 2014, 06:58:34 AM
Post by: soccerluvof4 on December 13, 2014, 10:07:23 AM
Post by: fh2000 on December 14, 2014, 07:26:27 PM
I now work at home full time and can usually get all of my work done for the day in about an hour. I do have to attend many web-ex meetings where I multi-task and/or stare out the window--so that eats up another 3 to 4 hours a day. I make $140,000 a year and work for a huge corporation. I learned a long time ago to play the "I'm busy, busy, heads down" game. For 20 years I have always really wondered if everyone else was also simply pretending to be busy too.
Early in my career, I was often told to slow down and quit finishing projects so fast. When I was in the office, I learned the art of the "double lunch" which means you go to the gym at an odd time--maybe 10:00 AM or 2:30 PM and then take a second lunch break to actually eat lunch at your desk while reading a novel you downloaded to your desktop. I also would take a daily walk around the huge corporate headquarters for an hour or so with a file folder in my hand. These things made me look busy and killed time.
I love working at home full time and think all companies should work this way. It should not matter how many hours you work--you should be graded only on the quality of your work and getting it done on time and on (or under) budget.
But I will soon be trying to orchestrate my own lay off . . . so that should be fun!
Mrs. K.
We may be working for the same company with the same arrangement. So, do not tell the management about our secret, OK? :-)
My career path has been in IT. There are times that I worked more than 50-60 hours a week. But more often than not, the down time seemed to be longer than actual work for most of the companies that I worked for.
I would say that this is quite common to software engineers. Project Managers sometimes ask the software engineers to provide estimate and oftentimes the same task can be estimated anywhere between 3 days to 2 months, for example. No one would challenge the estimate as long as you provide it with an authoritative convoluted detail technical explanation. Projects would sometimes get delayed without assigning extra tasks to your portion, so you have more time to wait. Software engineers would then spend their time to do self-study for new skills preparing for their next job.
Post by: Daisy on December 14, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
I now work at home full time and can usually get all of my work done for the day in about an hour. I do have to attend many web-ex meetings where I multi-task and/or stare out the window--so that eats up another 3 to 4 hours a day. I make $140,000 a year and work for a huge corporation. I learned a long time ago to play the "I'm busy, busy, heads down" game. For 20 years I have always really wondered if everyone else was also simply pretending to be busy too.
Early in my career, I was often told to slow down and quit finishing projects so fast. When I was in the office, I learned the art of the "double lunch" which means you go to the gym at an odd time--maybe 10:00 AM or 2:30 PM and then take a second lunch break to actually eat lunch at your desk while reading a novel you downloaded to your desktop. I also would take a daily walk around the huge corporate headquarters for an hour or so with a file folder in my hand. These things made me look busy and killed time.
I love working at home full time and think all companies should work this way. It should not matter how many hours you work--you should be graded only on the quality of your work and getting it done on time and on (or under) budget.
But I will soon be trying to orchestrate my own lay off . . . so that should be fun!
Mrs. K.
We may be working for the same company with the same arrangement. So, do not tell the management about our secret, OK? :-)
My career path has been in IT. There are times that I worked more than 50-60 hours a week. But more often than not, the down time seemed to be longer than actual work for most of the companies that I worked for.
I would say that this is quite common to software engineers. Project Managers sometimes ask the software engineers to provide estimate and oftentimes the same task can be estimated anywhere between 3 days to 2 months, for example. No one would challenge the estimate as long as you provide it with an authoritative convoluted detail technical explanation. Projects would sometimes get delayed without assigning extra tasks to your portion, so you have more time to wait. Software engineers would then spend their time to do self-study for new skills preparing for their next job.
Thanks for bringing up MrsK's post again. Her description sounds eerily familiar to my work environment - from the on-site gym disappearance act during off-peak gym hours (another bonus is you have a mostly empty gym with no wait lines), to walking around inside and outside of the building, to orchestrating my own layoff in the next year or two.
Orchestrating the layoff is a little more tricky because I do value a good work ethic and would do my best to do my assigned tasks well (part of my perfectionist tendencies, I guess). I wouldn't sabotage any work projects, just the useless training and testing parts that don't add to the company's bottom line. So I will have to see what layoff opportunities open up when I feel comfortable to pull the plug on my 25ish or so year career and enter the FIRE. I don't want poor work performance to be the trigger for a layoff. I consider that "bad karma". I may ask for some extended time off or something to test the waters with management. With any luck, planned workforce reductions will favor in nicely with my scheduled FIRE. I expect a sizable severance package whenever that happens - enough to live on for a year. That year will be my FIRE-training-wheels time to get me used to living off of savings.
Procrastination does work well in software development. With the changing scope and requirements that happens on all projects, starting too much development too early on in the process usually means a bunch of rework when the requirements change. ;-)
Post by: Daisy on December 14, 2014, 08:08:32 PM
... two posts
Ahh, Daisy. I enjoyed both of your posts -- yes, Agile and SCRUM (or any other impl of Agile) are going to make the industry more difficult for employees to be happy. They're micromanaging techniques masked in a methodology which promotes ever-increasing productivity and faster release schedules.
For folks that need constant guidance, it may help keep them on track. For self-motivated people who, as you say, prefer to work in spurts, it simply makes work less pleasant, because most of us don't like or need the unceasing supervision.
I also engage in holiday work-avoidance vacation scheduling. One of our teams is doing a big appliance upgrade between Christmas and New Years this year and the work is scheduled to start at 2AM on 2 different nights. They needed a resource from my group. I immediately put the days on the calendar to protect myself from being assigned. Because: I can.
It's so good to be FI. You can construct a work environment that's more pleasant for you (whatever that happens to be) without any fear whatsoever of repercussions. For me, more pleasant = less work off-hours work and most importantly, fewer meetings.
I've enjoyed your posts and blog as well. I haven't had such dreadful work environments as you seem to have had, but the tides-are-a-changing in my current work environment and it may soon get to the point where I will want out. I am more of a self-motivated person that doesn't like constant supervision. I have to balance that with being a lazy person that needs deadlines (whether externally or self imposed) or else I would just think about stuff and not act until the last minute.
The main reason I want out though is because I am done with my 25ish year career in software which was never what I had really planned to get into. It has been interesting, creative, and prosperous - but I've got to move on to my other interests in life.
I will miss the great group of people I work with. I've made a lot of lifelong friends by working at mostly the same company the whole time. Ex co-workers do tend to stay invited to parties, trips, and happy hours so I don't think it will be too bad. Plus, I have a whole lot of other friends/acquaintances in the non-work activities in my life as well.
Post by: Daisy on December 14, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
I don't think it will be too hard to engineer my layoff, as it seems to be a continuous thing going on in my company for the past two years. I just need to make sure I am ready for FIRE, then try to figure out a politically correct way to phrase it to my manager(s) (don't we all have multiple managers in software?), without divulging the size of my stash or desire to no longer be in the rat race. No sense in burning any bridges in case I need to come begging for a job in the future. ;-)
I've got elderly parents that need help and other budding interests that some are aware of, so I will try to use those as my reasons. I'm known for taking all of my vacation time and doing exciting sports related things during my time off, so I can try for a leave of absence to go on a long long hiking trip or something like that. Then they may say...leave of absence - are you nuts?
Post by: Pooperman on December 15, 2014, 04:54:43 AM
Post by: goodlife on December 16, 2014, 10:47:55 PM
http://iflanimals.com/?p=99
Post by: Sibley on December 17, 2014, 07:56:45 PM
Post by: goodlife on December 17, 2014, 10:58:49 PM
Oh god, yes. I have nothing to do at work - I'm an auditor, and am in between project years. This is actually more of a problem for me because my desk is right at the front, so anyone walking by can see me and my computer. Also, no sound, so can't watch videos. I read all of MMM's posts in about 2 weeks at work, and am now browsing my way through the forum.
I hate open office plans. I used to have the same problem. Thankfully at my curent job I have my own office and I can close the dorr and nobody can see inside. Perfect for the do-nothing days!
Post by: retired? on December 18, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
I always say, it takes hard work to be as lazy as I am.
Very often so true. Great quote.
But, I think that is what we put up with rather than prefer.
Post by: lielec11 on December 18, 2014, 06:45:42 AM
Slightly off topic...but this made me laugh...and applies to so many companies...no matter where in the world in my experience!
http://iflanimals.com/?p=99
This made me chuckle. Too true. Everyone wants a title.
Post by: mom2_3Hs on December 18, 2014, 10:10:45 AM
Post by: Goldielocks on December 18, 2014, 03:11:10 PM
I totally don't get this. I am a professor, and when my work is done, it is done. If I piss around at work, the homework is still there for me to grade, the lesson for tomorrow still needs to be written and the grant application is still due. If I don't get it done, I have to take it home as it all has deadlines. Why in the world would I want to piss around at work? I still do :) but I pay for it later.
Ah, but what if the class you are prepping for is actually a seminar series not for another month, and once you have prepped for it, others will find busy "make work" for you (projects/ tasks that don't add value to your work, and marginal usefulness to theirs), like asking you to create and maintaining a staff website about free work lunch and cake events.
What if all your peers were pretending to be busy to avoid being the person on the hook to complete the "make work"?
What if you were just plain lazy and had few consequences, like not being prepared for class. (I know teachers that don't give homework because then they would have to mark it, of course).
Post by: Emilyngh on December 18, 2014, 04:31:22 PM
I totally don't get this. I am a professor, and when my work is done, it is done. If I piss around at work, the homework is still there for me to grade, the lesson for tomorrow still needs to be written and the grant application is still due. If I don't get it done, I have to take it home as it all has deadlines. Why in the world would I want to piss around at work? I still do :) but I pay for it later.
Ah, but what if the class you are prepping for is actually a seminar series not for another month, and once you have prepped for it, others will find busy "make work" for you (projects/ tasks that don't add value to your work, and marginal usefulness to theirs), like asking you to create and maintaining a staff website about free work lunch and cake events.
What if all your peers were pretending to be busy to avoid being the person on the hook to complete the "make work"?
I can't speak for the OP, but as another prof: (a) no one else would know whether or not my prep is complete, (b) there's really no one to "make work" for me other than myself and indirectly, my students (c) regardless, no way in hell I'd be making a staff website about free work lunch and cake events (and where I work, faculty is not "staff" so I was especially confused by this description until I realized that you were perhaps assuming that the professor would too be called staff?).
I too just go home when I'm finished. It's one of the great parts of the jobs-I'm rewarded for working efficiently. Anything else would drive me crazy.
Post by: Schaefer Light on December 19, 2014, 06:39:22 AM
I too just go home when I'm finished. It's one of the great parts of the jobs-I'm rewarded for working efficiently. Anything else would drive me crazy.That's exactly what drives a lot of us crazy.
Post by: Goldielocks on December 20, 2014, 07:30:03 AM
I too just go home when I'm finished. It's one of the great parts of the jobs-I'm rewarded for working efficiently. Anything else would drive me crazy.That's exactly what drives a lot of us crazy.
Exactly, I could theoretically stop when I am finished, but because I am salaried and in a consulting industry, I am expected to find additional work for the company or find another project (client paid) that needs a hand. The extra effort only pays off very indirectly -- by getting promotions, discretionary bonus at the end of the year, etc. which people who look busy and are "team players" can do almost as well. I do, however, just leave work now, when I am "tapped out", even if it is a couple hours early, but I put in far more than the basic 40 hrs most weeks.
It compounds within the office due to the simple fact that sometimes there just is not enough (client) work to go around (about 20% of the time), so people get very good at looking busy during those justified "down times". Management does not notice / have time to care too much, because that is when they are the busiest trying to bring in more work... and the art of "looking busy" begins...
Post by: DSKla on December 20, 2014, 07:52:15 AM
Post by: retired? on December 20, 2014, 08:31:34 AM
I totally don't get this. I am a professor, and when my work is done, it is done. If I piss around at work, the homework is still there for me to grade, the lesson for tomorrow still needs to be written and the grant application is still due. If I don't get it done, I have to take it home as it all has deadlines. Why in the world would I want to piss around at work? I still do :) but I pay for it later.
You said it. But, most corporate or salaried jobs are not like that. Aside from academia, the jobs that are similar in this regard likely are non-creative, don't allow for improvement and paid hourly. Service employees (lifeguards, waiters.....although these guys work the entire period) and retail (home depot, grocery, malls......who may or may not work the entire time, but still have to stay).
I'd say you're lucky, but presumably you chose this profession for its characteristics including a degree of autonomy that is rare.
Post by: Wolf_Stache on December 20, 2014, 10:42:58 AM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
Ah! This whole thread is great, but I have to applaud this one. :D
Post by: Spondulix on December 25, 2014, 11:11:35 PM
Yep, when I was freelance I used to have a 1/2 day minimum for my clients, and usually I could get the work done in less than that. So it was incentive to work more efficiently cause it would bump up my hourly rate. I saw other contractors with an hourly rate who would drag things out as long as possible, cause they needed to do the hours to get paid!I too just go home when I'm finished. It's one of the great parts of the jobs-I'm rewarded for working efficiently. Anything else would drive me crazy.That's exactly what drives a lot of us crazy.
Post by: Kepler on December 28, 2014, 05:14:50 PM
I just had a flashback to a job I had years ago - I worked for a company who's owner who was highly ADD. He would hire me to come in extra hours, because having me around "helped him focus." I didn't do much but sit in the room with him, listen to him talk, and ask him questions when he'd get off task. So I wonder if it's a matter of perspective, sometimes... they earned a lot more money as a result of the owner finishing tasks vs what they were paying me!
Oh God... Both my current manager and my previous one were like this. My previous one was eased out of her position that last time I went on maternity leave. I expect the same fate for my current manager when I go on maternity leave early next year. They have both been promoted above their competency level, not because their job is particularly difficult in and of itself, but because it requires relatively quick decision-making, and both just temperamentally can't handle it - they freeze and become paralyzed and can't get anything done, which they process as the job imposing overwhelmingly high demands on their time. Both used me essentially to make decisions - and then to reinforce, when they became uncertain and started to doubt - and to outline a rationale for those decisions that would be persuasive to others in the organisation.
In exchange, I got a much higher level of control over my day to day working conditions that would be normal. I can't stand sitting in an office doing nothing, and this arrangement has made it possible to negotiate working from home up to four days a week (basically, I come in when needed, with at least two days on deck for meetings - I'll come in every day if face time is actually needed, but average about three days a week in the office). When I'm not in the office, I'm available constantly on email (and, for my manager only, by phone and text) - the mails are frequent enough that I can't do anything particularly productive with my time, but there's less time wasted with commuting, and I have to deal with fewer people dropping in wanting me to problem-solve for their own work (I still do a great deal of this - it passes the time and maintains pleasant relationships with people who could otherwise become jealous - but channel it into the days when I'd be physically present in the office anyway). I also get nice incidental interactions with my kids when I can work from home, and I can run mindless errands as long as I'm prepared to pause and reply to a mail while I'm doing it. All up, it gives more time for things I'd rather be doing.
The thing is, I could do the substantive aspect of my managers jobs much more easily and effectively than they could - it takes /hours/ to brief my manager to handle a single brief meeting with his higher-ups, and he's still less effective at pushing things through than I am. This isn't speculation: I stand in for his actual role when he's away, and things just go much more smoothly. However, his job also involves a lot of social nonsense that I can't stand, and that would severely intrude into hours outside of work - retreats and other "bonding" activities with other managers, expected forms of socialisation outside regular working hours, etc. So, while I could do what I regard as the "job" much more efficiently, I would end up with all this other nonsense... Do I don't rock the boat; I do what I can to help my managers function; I negotiate what I can to make my working life more pleasant - and I plan to get the hell outta Dodge as quick as I can swing it.
In previous jobs - including previous positions with this same organisation - where I was expected to front up to the workplace for a standard working schedule, I've generally ended up needing to accrue additional roles in order not to be completely and utterly bored. It's hard to balance this such that you end up with just enough to keep the day full, without ending up with overtime obligations, which I don't want - happy to leave as soon as I'm allowed - but I often ended up with accidental peaks involving much more work than I wanted, in order to have an actual full-time schedule the rest of the time. It also led to ridiculous situations when I left a position - organisations suddenly needing to find multiple people to take on roles I had been handling.
At the moment, I'm working a ridiculously light schedule, for me, with the work from home period making it largely invisible to other staff, since I'm running every second that I'm physically in the office, and I have a few very visible "high impact" roles that bring me to the fore more than would normally be expected for someone at my level. (The exception are the admin staff who have to be in during standard business hours every day, and who make regular passive-aggressive comments about my schedule - this requires some social facilitation, since I need them to respond to my requests, but otherwise this is their problem, not mine.) Even so, trying to plan out my maternity leave replacements makes clear that they will have to spend more to replace me while I'm on maternity leave, than they need to spend while I'm here, even though everyone they will replace me with, will be paid significantly less than I am. So my current schedule is apparently still more than a "full time" load in terms of the actual outputs it produces...
Post by: DSKla on February 19, 2015, 09:42:55 PM
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/ (http://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/)
Post by: choppingwood on February 19, 2015, 09:51:43 PM
Post by: bacchi on February 19, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
I've done somewhat the opposite and received the opposite reaction.
In my youth, me and a co-worker literally stayed at work overnight to fix a critical bug to save an important contract. After testing it and sending it to QA, it was around 11AM and, of course, we decided to leave since we'd been there around 24 hours. As I'm leaving, the boss' boss sees me. He thanked me for fixing the bug and then proceeded to give me flack for missing the corporate quarterly meeting (which I always skipped anyway) and then scolded me for leaving before 5pm.
Post by: Guesl982374 on February 20, 2015, 09:29:01 AM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
I've done somewhat the opposite and received the opposite reaction.
In my youth, me and a co-worker literally stayed at work overnight to fix a critical bug to save an important contract. After testing it and sending it to QA, it was around 11AM and, of course, we decided to leave since we'd been there around 24 hours. As I'm leaving, the boss' boss sees me. He thanked me for fixing the bug and then proceeded to give me flack for missing the corporate quarterly meeting (which I always skipped anyway) and then scolded me for leaving before 5pm.
I hope you pointed out that you didn't go home the prior night. My experience is one a higher up hears or sees an employee do something that like, you typically get some level of extra respect but rarely does it result in promotions/pay increases/etc.
Post by: jmusic on February 20, 2015, 01:36:48 PM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
I've done somewhat the opposite and received the opposite reaction.
In my youth, me and a co-worker literally stayed at work overnight to fix a critical bug to save an important contract. After testing it and sending it to QA, it was around 11AM and, of course, we decided to leave since we'd been there around 24 hours. As I'm leaving, the boss' boss sees me. He thanked me for fixing the bug and then proceeded to give me flack for missing the corporate quarterly meeting (which I always skipped anyway) and then scolded me for leaving before 5pm.
I hope you pointed out that you didn't go home the prior night. My experience is one a higher up hears or sees an employee do something that like, you typically get some level of extra respect but rarely does it result in promotions/pay increases/etc.
If I did something like that, I'd make darn sure my boss knew before I left. I'd probably "tell" him instead of "ask" him though. :)
Post by: azure975 on February 21, 2015, 10:11:49 AM
Btw, our company just introduced an "Unlimited PTO policy." In theory, this would be perfect for me, in that I've often wished for a job in which I can just go to work when I need to and leave when I'm done, but in reality, I'm a little afraid to take advantage of it because I don't want people to know how little work I have! I could probably get all my work done in about 50% of the time, but I'm afraid if I only showed up 50% of the time I would soon be out of a job. I'll probably just test the waters by taking partial weeks during the summer when it's slowest, and then seeing what I can get away with. I wish I could find a job where I was engaged and energized, but somehow it's eluded me. One of my main reasons for wanting to FIRE!
Post by: solon on February 21, 2015, 10:34:37 AM
After a while I decided to go back to school for an MBA. By boss asked me to stay on part time, working only as much time as required to do the job. So now I go to work for only two hours a day, and spend the rest of the time studying. Grad school turned out to be really tough. The good news is, I'm no longer bored!
The other good news is they gave me a 10% hourly raise when I went part time. That helps out with the college bills a little.
Post by: Zamboni on February 22, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
The exception are the admin staff who have to be in during standard business hours every day, and who make regular passive-aggressive comments about my schedule - this requires some social facilitation, since I need them to respond to my requests, but otherwise this is their problem, not mine.
Watch out for these people. There was one in my office (the big boss's assistant) who eventually was successful in sabotaging my similarly sweet set up. I ended up in an even better job at another place, and he realized he had made a mistake not long after I left, but nonetheless she squawked enough about it to him that he started to try to put an end to my arrangement and that it led to me moving on.
Which leads to the next most important thing to the art of not working at work: the art of just doing your own work/non-work without constantly finding reasons to complain that others are not pretending to work as hard as you pretend to work.
Post by: MLKnits on February 22, 2015, 10:32:46 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf."
YES. I'm lucky in my work (own a business with partners) and so, being in the first group, I typically work short days and take reasonably frequent days and afternoons off. I'm usually done with what needs doing by 1 or 2PM, and either leave or, lately, choose to stick around to enjoy socializing with my colleagues and/or to get ahead of longer-term tasks.
The other lawyers in my office are all the second type, and they work much longer days and often come in on weekends. Luckily, because of the nature of the work, it's easy to see in our earnings that I'm doing my fair share or more, so no one thinks twice about my short hours. In a strict 9-5, though, I'd be clawing at my eyelids from boredom, and much more focused on ER than I am.
Post by: MLKnits on February 22, 2015, 11:19:07 AM
As a supervisor, the way I look at work is this: I pay you to fulfill a set of tasks and responsibilities. If you do so by physically staying motion every second of the eight hours you are assigned to perform that set in, then I am satisfied. If you do so by taking a coffee break at 12:30 and playing Angry Birds on your phone from 2:30 to 3:15, I am satisfied.
The very bottom line is: are you accomplishing that which you are paid to do?
Agreed. I have a couple of employees, one hourly and one exempt. The hourly employee is very efficient, and if there isn't more to do, she goofs off. I couldn't care less if she's on Facebook and planning her wedding during the downtime, because if we have a task, she jumps to do it, and she does it fast and well. (And she makes her own tasks if there's nothing to do for too long; she's self-motivated, which makes a big difference.)
Our exempt employee isn't particularly efficient, but his finished work is great. So I encourage him not to over-work and burn out, but if he feels he needs to work a longer day to get things done, he's welcome to. He's also welcome to take a long weekend, come in after rush hour, hit the gym for a long lunch, or whatever else he wants, as long as his work gets done--which it does!
Both of them have very "trackable" jobs, which makes it easier on me as the designated HR person. If wedding planning or slow work were actually stopping them from getting things done, I'd know, and that would be an issue. But it's not, so what do I care? We could block Facebook and make sure their monitors were visible at all times, if we wanted them to hate us and hate their jobs, and lose their excellent work to other employers, I suppose--goodness knows many managers choose that route.
Post by: ZiziPB on February 23, 2015, 03:09:52 PM
Post by: notquitefrugal on February 26, 2015, 09:21:16 PM
Post by: Spondulix on February 28, 2015, 05:50:36 PM
Let me just say, I am jealous of all those who are involved with high-5 figure or low-6 figure jobs with excellent job security, with many hours of free time per day (some with state pensions!). Congrats, guys and gals, you've made it! Now, where can I find one of these jobs? :PIn all seriousness... look for boring sounding jobs at big corporations. My job would look painfully boring on a job description (compared to other jobs I could get in the field). I'd actually seen my job before in past years, and I didn't consider it cause it sounded so blah. When I took it, I was in a place where I was ready for a break.
Post by: MLKnits on March 03, 2015, 01:10:36 PM
Let me just say, I am jealous of all those who are involved with high-5 figure or low-6 figure jobs with excellent job security, with many hours of free time per day (some with state pensions!). Congrats, guys and gals, you've made it! Now, where can I find one of these jobs? :P
There was (maybe still is?) a quite famous knitting blogger who produced TREMENDOUS numbers of sweaters, socks, and accessories, while working in the US government. It was very clear to the readership that she was knitting half the day away in her closed-door office, and I can't say I didn't envy it at the time. Now, though--ehh. I'd rather finish my work efficiently, and knit at home.
Post by: Jersey Brett on March 03, 2015, 02:28:37 PM
Post by: mozar on March 07, 2015, 09:23:09 PM
But this job is the most engaging I've ever had. I'm learning more than I have in years. I once had a job where I had no work for two months. The client was upset that I didn't "seem" busy. My boss lectured me by saying that perception is important. Sigh.
Oh, how I get these gigs. I got a fancy private school degree. I work in Federal Audit. I get hired entirely because of my credentials because I look good on the contract. Sometimes I learn things.
Post by: Monkey Uncle on March 08, 2015, 04:34:38 AM
Post by: Sibley on March 09, 2015, 08:42:52 AM
The couple of days I've worked from home, I have literally watched movies all day with the laptop next to me so I can deal with anything that does come in.
Post by: accolay on March 09, 2015, 12:59:46 PM
Hopefully ten years or less to freedom.
Post by: Kitsune on March 09, 2015, 03:11:28 PM
Me: "I'm done all the important work, the not-important work, the prep-for-in-3-months work, and I just did half of my colleague's work because she was 'so busy' (translation: couldn't focus). Is there anything else I can do?"
Boss: "download the kindle app. I recommend these novels."
Ok, then.
Post by: Spondulix on March 09, 2015, 08:34:15 PM
I guess in some ways a strong work ethic tends to feed into this situation. People who are good at getting a lot of work done tend to attract more work. But I also work in an office where pretty much everyone is very dedicated, and I can't say I've ever known anyone at my current place of employment who was guilty of loafing on the job.Two of my co-workers now are people I worked 10 years ago at a place where we busted ass every day. We're not any less dedicated here - it's that the work literally does not exist. They want to pay to have a body here 40 hours (or 48 hours for my co-workers) to do 8 hours of work because it's still cheaper than outsourcing to a vendor.
At my first corporate job, my boss told me to slow down. He pointed out that in my old non-corporate jobs, I had to work like a chicken with it's head cut-off cause they couldn't afford for it to be any other way. He said he'd never do that to me - if I wanted to have a lower stress level and a better quality of life, he'd make that happen. I appreciated it cause no one had ever put it that way before. I had just assumed the field was supposed to have overtime, missed meals, stress, etc.
Post by: h2ogal on March 09, 2015, 10:15:45 PM
Once I realized what a silly non-job it was, I enrolled in an Executive MBA program. Company paid my tuition, gave me every other Friday off to attend classes, and I did all my homework at the office.
If you have a silly job, why not use your spare time to research, study, write, or any intellectual or creative activity....better than staring out the window and you may even wind up getting a raise or a better job because of it. If you're close to retirement, use the time to build your financial planning skills, learn a new language for your upcoming international travels!
Post by: NickydŁg on March 10, 2015, 04:33:13 AM
One time I had a non-job. My title was "team developer". My job was to help self directed work teams direct themselves. Hahaha! Im totally serious! I took the job because my company relocated my family to the area we wanted to move as it was better for DH's business.
Once I realized what a silly non-job it was, I enrolled in an Executive MBA program. Company paid my tuition, gave me every other Friday off to attend classes, and I did all my homework at the office.
If you have a silly job, why not use your spare time to research, study, write, or any intellectual or creative activity....better than staring out the window and you may even wind up getting a raise or a better job because of it. If you're close to retirement, use the time to build your financial planning skills, learn a new language for your upcoming international travels!
I agree - I am getting trained to be an assessor, which would cost around Ł2k [$3,200?] for free at my organisation and do all my homework and meetings during work time.
Today, I am working from home. I have ONE task I have to do, should take about an hour if I stretch it out. I'll probably spend most of today online and watching TV with my laptop beside me. This is getting really boring, but I've been looking and so far haven't found anything at a comparable salary.
Post by: 2lazy2retire on March 10, 2015, 06:54:34 AM
All last week, I was feeling tired, so I hit the snooze and came in an hour later. This meant that I was staying an hour later in the evening.
This week, I got kudos from my immediate boss, thanking me for putting in the "extra effort" by staying a little later every day. It's really appreciated, since the department is going through a difficult leadership transition right now.
Maybe if I come in two hours later, I'll get a big bonus!
-.-
This is so true and I hate it. It doesn't matter how late you come in, as long as people have the impression that you are staying late, you are perceived as hard working. I am a morning person and would love to come in at 7am or earlier every day and then leave in the early afternoon. But of course I can't do that, this would be highly frowned upon and I am sure I would be perceived as a slacker. Staying late...even if I do absolutely nothing...is all that people care for.
Worked for a short time in Tokyo for a UK employer. We had Japanese co-workers who indicated that this was one of the main reasons they enjoyed working for a non Japanese company. The whole tradition of not leaving before your boss is still enshrined in the culture there and is likely a high cause of stress .
Post by: ontario74 on March 10, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
I use down time to give more attention to tasks I would normally rush through, or I collect and analyze resources (data or information) for future use. Idleness at work makes for a very long day.
My boss goes non-stop; I can't live that way, so I just try to go with the flow and store energy during those down periods so that I have more when things pick up.
Post by: HappyMargo on March 10, 2015, 07:39:30 PM
Sometimes I wish I had a job where this was an option. I can't imagine not working during the time you're at work. I'm a nurse, and if I don't work from the moment I hit the floor until the person coming on takes over from me, I wouldn't have a job. Not for more than a day, anyway. And I'd be bored shitless, quite frankly. :)
This. I'm a surgical nurse & there is no down-time or time to get bored. Usually the only time I even get to sit down all day is during lunch break (that's a 30 minute break during a 10- 12 hour work shift. Seriously.)
Many times DH will chat over dinner about some trending internet/ twitter story & can't believe I haven't heard about it yet. Ummmm, yeah. NO. Most doctors & patients would prefer I don't web surf during surgery!!
Post by: Mr Dumpster Stache on March 14, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
It's Saturday and I've already done all of my weekly tasks, with frequent article/mmm/outside breaks. I guess tomorrow I can work on monthly and quarterly stuff...
Post by: Kepler on March 15, 2015, 04:29:14 AM
The exception are the admin staff who have to be in during standard business hours every day, and who make regular passive-aggressive comments about my schedule - this requires some social facilitation, since I need them to respond to my requests, but otherwise this is their problem, not mine.
Watch out for these people. There was one in my office (the big boss's assistant) who eventually was successful in sabotaging my similarly sweet set up. I ended up in an even better job at another place, and he realized he had made a mistake not long after I left, but nonetheless she squawked enough about it to him that he started to try to put an end to my arrangement and that it led to me moving on.
Which leads to the next most important thing to the art of not working at work: the art of just doing your own work/non-work without constantly finding reasons to complain that others are not pretending to work as hard as you pretend to work.
Yeah, I just saw an email announcing that the most serious passive-aggressive complainer had just been shifted into a new position that I know to be a demotion - I've only been on maternity leave for three weeks now, and can't help but feel a small element of satisfaction that the guy didn't even make it a single month once I left the role (while he clearly regarded me as a problem, the reality is that - working in the office or from home - I caught a lot of his mistakes before they had a chance to draw down the ire of his own higher-ups. His (lack of) capacity will have been more visible since I've been away, but I hadn't actually expected him to get moved into a lower responsibility position so quickly...).
Post by: WynnDuffy73 on March 15, 2015, 06:27:25 AM
This is perfect because anyone walking by my cube sees excel and thinks I'm doing actual work.
Post by: firewalker on March 15, 2015, 07:26:19 AM
Post by: Schaefer Light on April 30, 2015, 02:35:19 PM
So, with all your collective experience, a question: If you were put in position of managing your clone self, how would you adjust your job to retain the strength of your freedom of movement while using your abilities to further benefit the department or company as a whole? This would require your still being content to stay and not start looking elsewhere to regain what you lost through this experiment. Any thoughts from you hypothetical clone managers?The first adjustment I'd make would be to let myself work from home. Or at least leave the office when my work is done. This whole sitting at a desk from 8-to-5 thing just isn't how human beings were meant to work.
Post by: big_slacker on April 30, 2015, 04:01:47 PM
The above is how I work now, but I checked out of the regular office thing quite a while ago. Work from home most of the time and on-site at the customer the rest.
Nothing wrong with the office for collaboration and team building, but for a lot of jobs its REALLY inefficient in terms of actual productivity.
Post by: Rebebe on April 30, 2015, 07:03:24 PM
Sometimes I wish I had a job where this was an option. I can't imagine not working during the time you're at work. I'm a nurse, and if I don't work from the moment I hit the floor until the person coming on takes over from me, I wouldn't have a job. Not for more than a day, anyway. And I'd be bored shitless, quite frankly. :)
This. I'm a surgical nurse & there is no down-time or time to get bored. Usually the only time I even get to sit down all day is during lunch break (that's a 30 minute break during a 10- 12 hour work shift. Seriously.)
I'm an RN and the only one I know that gets paid to sit and do nothing most of the time. I work prn and fill in for nurses that staff factories. They mostly do paperwork and work comp that they don't care about teaching me, so I do about 10 minutes of filing and then sit for the rest of the shift and wait for someone to get hurt. Most of the time it's a splinter, but I've had to send a few to the ER. When I'm not filling in, I'm at our office on the phone doing health coaching. When my clients don't answer, I sit and wait for the next one to answer. This has been the perfect job for studying and I will graduate with my masters soon. I went into nursing to avoid the office environment but I always get sucked back in. I've never worked in a hospital but I've had a variety of experience in so many different areas. I admit, sitting and waiting sometimes sucks the life out of me and I go home drained.
Many times DH will chat over dinner about some trending internet/ twitter story & can't believe I haven't heard about it yet. Ummmm, yeah. NO. Most doctors & patients would prefer I don't web surf during surgery!!
Post by: LSUFanTX on May 04, 2015, 11:03:41 AM
I despise the "putting in your time" culture in my office and most others. If I get my crap done, I should be able to leave when I want. I've started leaving a little early and coming in a little late during our slow times, but I still have lots of idle time I struggle to fill. For whatever reason I have always felt odd about working on side gigs at the office, although in reality it isn't any different than just surfing the net. I would love a work from home gig where I could do what I need to and spend the rest of my time doing other stuff without the corporate overlords (or nosy coworkers) watching to see if I am sitting at my desk.
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on May 04, 2015, 11:35:48 AM
So, with all your collective experience, a question: If you were put in position of managing your clone self, how would you adjust your job to retain the strength of your freedom of movement while using your abilities to further benefit the department or company as a whole? This would require your still being content to stay and not start looking elsewhere to regain what you lost through this experiment. Any thoughts from you hypothetical clone managers?The first adjustment I'd make would be to let myself work from home. Or at least leave the office when my work is done. This whole sitting at a desk from 8-to-5 thing just isn't how human beings were meant to work.
This. If I were in a position to actually do something that I wanted to do when I finished my work, then I would be far more efficient. As it is, my reward for efficiently completing tasks is getting to sit in my cubicle for a longer period of time with nothing in particular to do. I find goofing off with web-surfing and excel spreadsheets to be - though not terribly fun - at least as enjoyable as the work that I am tasked to do. So there is no motivation to do things quickly or to exceed expectations. If I had the freedom to reward myself with more enjoyable activities when the work was complete - maybe cooking a fancy lunch in m own kitchen, going for a run on the beach, or relaxing in the recliner with a hot cup of coffee - then I would be more inclined to complete tasks efficiently. As it is, the only real incentive for being efficient is the specter of a promotion, which would ultimately just result in less enjoyable work and additional stress. The freedom to work wherever I want, whenever I want is going to be the next frontier in my career.
Post by: mathlete on May 04, 2015, 11:42:27 AM
I don't think that human beings were meant to achieve max productivity by sitting at a desk for 8-9 hours a day. I don't know. Maybe some people can do it.
Thank God for the Internet though. I can spend downtime reading stuff, investing, planning dinner, etc.
If it is getting close to the end of the day though and I don't see myself getting any more work done, I just leave. I learned pretty quickly that I'm never going to get back that hour of my life that I spent staring at a spreadsheet trying to make myself work. Might as well go home and get a head start on dinner prep or video gaming or something.
Post by: golden1 on May 05, 2015, 07:12:09 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1)
Post by: goodlife on May 05, 2015, 07:30:25 AM
Interesting NYT article relating to this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1)
Oh, this is spot on! Thankfully I figured this out pretty fast, I never ask for permission anymore, I just leave early/come in late/take long lunches/have some fake meetings.
Post by: Schaefer Light on May 05, 2015, 07:32:30 AM
"In other words, maybe the real problem isn’t men faking greater devotion to their jobs. Maybe it’s that too many companies reward the wrong things, favoring the illusion of extraordinary effort over actual productivity."
Bingo.
Post by: Pooperman on May 05, 2015, 07:35:14 AM
Interesting NYT article relating to this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1)
Oh, this is spot on! Thankfully I figured this out pretty fast, I never ask for permission anymore, I just leave early/come in late/take long lunches/have some fake meetings.
Teach me the best techniques to appear to be doing the most work while doing the bare minimum! Problem with my position now is resourcing. I have to log my hours and such and I'm allocated not by me but by my boss on all my projects.
Post by: Dollar Slice on May 05, 2015, 07:43:06 AM
Post by: hdatontodo on May 05, 2015, 09:26:08 AM
I was reading through this thread yesterday and my boss came in and literally asked me "What are you doing right now?" Awkward moment.
"Taking a non-tobacco smoke break"
"Clearing my head for 3 minutes"
"Just got off a phone call during which I was reading a financial column"
"Planning my exit"
Post by: golden1 on May 05, 2015, 09:48:26 AM
Quote
I never ask for permission anymore, I just leave early/come in late/take long lunches/have some fake meetings.
I do this now too. It took me years to not feel guilty about it, but I have to remind myself that I am doing my job well, no one is giving me any negative feedback etc....
Post by: Dollar Slice on May 05, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
The aforementioned boss saw some papers on my desk (a list of invoices to be sent out) and said "Oh! You're working on invoices" before I even had a chance to answer. Yep. Invoicing. I sure am.I was reading through this thread yesterday and my boss came in and literally asked me "What are you doing right now?" Awkward moment.
"Taking a non-tobacco smoke break"
"Clearing my head for 3 minutes"
"Just got off a phone call during which I was reading a financial column"
"Planning my exit"
Post by: mathlete on May 05, 2015, 10:32:32 AM
Luckily most people don't like confrontation, and they're even less likely to confront someone who does good work.
Post by: Sibley on May 05, 2015, 02:24:49 PM
Post by: johnhenry on May 05, 2015, 03:12:41 PM
I also can't imagine being "throttled" in terms of not being given more work to do if needed.
If we are smart enough to recognize this is true for the individual and the company, why not the nation. As a nation we already produce way more than we need. But we drag along an antiquated, unfair economic system so that "dedicated workers" can put in 50, 60, 70 hours a week to get a slightly bigger piece of the pie, while large numbers are unemployed.
Sounds like a perfect problem for you and your team of engineers.
Post by: trailrated on May 05, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
Ok, this is sad, but I've gone so long in my dry period at work that I've run out of things to read online. Suggestions?
cracked.com can be pretty entertaining mindless awesomeness for a bit.
Post by: gaja on May 05, 2015, 03:51:50 PM
I follow Melchior's law when it comes to work: "is it fun, or will it lead to something fun?". If the answer is yes, I'll do it. If not, I'll spend as little time on that task as possible. Luckily, what I think is fun is something other people are willing to pay me to do (e.g. writing grant applications, managing large excel sheets, or writing policy documents). Most bosses have quickly figured out that it is a good idea to to just leave me in peace to do my thing. A couple of times I have met micro managers, and promptly quit. And once or twice I have run out of stuff to do at work, and also quit.
Post by: rujancified on May 06, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
Ok, this is sad, but I've gone so long in my dry period at work that I've run out of things to read online. Suggestions?
This may also be sad, but I've started going through the Mental Floss Archives for their WW1 series. They've been doing it for a few years now as a 100 years later retrospective. I feel like I missed out on learning about WW1 in school, so it's been a good read.
Post by: Cezil on May 06, 2015, 03:15:08 PM
When I tell people how much free time I have, I get the "You must be so lucky! I wish I could do that and get paid! Enjoy it while you can!" but the grass is always greener on the other side. My awesome work ethic has gone out the window (I'm so orderly and efficient at my job that I look lazy when I'm done whereas particular co-workers, who still can't grasp the job after 3.5 years and who still struggle and look like they are working hard, get rewarded for it) and I'm trying to be as inefficient as possible to make the work last longer when it does come around. It feels utterly wrong to me to be that way.
I met with my manager not too long ago for a 'development meeting' after my review/raise was worse than last year and I got upset (side note: I used the prior year's review to really amp my game up for a promotion this year, so I did and I blew it out of the stars..but somehow did worse.) and told her straight out that I am not fulfilling my potential on this team and the company is wasting my skills. I am fortunate that she took it nicely and has written me glowing letters of recommendation for each internal position I apply to and is trying to help me get to a different team with less down-time. I'm one of her top employees so I appreciate this because I. just. can't. do. it. anymore. *laughs maniacally*
Post by: Oslo_gal on May 06, 2015, 03:18:24 PM
Ok, this is sad, but I've gone so long in my dry period at work that I've run out of things to read online. Suggestions?
I do online courses through coursera and edX. Having a scientific paper up on the screen looks a lot more work related than Facebook or (my favourite place to spice up work life) awkwardfamilyphotos.com :) When I took a course on positive psychology, I even felt justified - I mean, it was likely to come in handy in dealing with my negative feelings about work..?
My main reason for not working at work is that no one really knows what tasks to give me. The person who created my position is long gone, the person who hired me quit as I started my job, and my current leader is too busy (busy busy busy) too really put any effort into finding work for me. And our organisation is a mess - how can an organisation not be organised?? (I work in the public sector) At the beginning (1.5 years ago) I kept asking for more work, and for clarifications and goals. But it never really seems to work; I get the crappy jobs that nobody wants for a while, but when I've done them I'm back to the struggle of getting more work. And I've been noticing that pretending to be busy seems to give you more status and cool jobs. I'm such a bad liar, that I don't think I'll be able to fake being busy. Living in a country where workers' rights are incredibly strong, I can basically do what I want without getting fired. My current strategy is to have fun with being very open about the situation, without begging my boss for any more crummy tasks. I'm also considering studying for a degree part time while at work - right now I'd love to learn more about behavioural economics and/or data analysis.
Post by: superone! on May 06, 2015, 06:07:19 PM
It thoroughly depresses me that people work long hours "doing nothing".
Post by: superone! on May 06, 2015, 06:08:14 PM
This thread is reminding me of David Graeber's awesome piece "On Bullshit Jobs".
It thoroughly depresses me that people work long hours "doing nothing".
OOPS! I forgot to past in the link: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
Post by: Oslo_gal on May 07, 2015, 12:30:53 AM
This thread is reminding me of David Graeber's awesome piece "On Bullshit Jobs".
It thoroughly depresses me that people work long hours "doing nothing".
OOPS! I forgot to past in the link: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
Haha! That article pretty much sums up my daily thoughts of conspiracy theories at work! Ironically, I think part of why they hired someone for my position was because everyone in my department was so "busy" that they needed some more help. And now that I'm here asking "Well, what can I do?" they don't really have a good answer.
One thing that worries me about not working at work is the apathy effect. I feel like the less I do or think, over time my capacity shrinks along with the low work load. There's really no incentive to be effective (quite the opposite!) or innovative in that kind of an environment. We'll end up like zombies due to work environments, not infections :D I used to work with disabled kids for next-to-nothing money, but hated the low wages, uneducated just-here-for-the-paycheck coworkers and not having any influence on my own work situation. Now I get about $70 000, but in an environment where it's social suicide to say that you're just there for the money, where my boss doesn't want to tell me what to do, and where I don't really produce anything. On a really productive day I may produce a few letters or a report that nobody will really read (or that will lead to new letters and reports). I want to save up enough money to live comfortably and safely while working with something more meaningful and fun (that will not make my brain shrink).
Post by: dungoofed on May 07, 2015, 02:07:17 AM
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/
Post by: NickydŁg on May 07, 2015, 05:43:49 AM
That was it! Total of about 6 minutes "work". I came in at 10, left at 4, took a 2 hour lunch break and applied for two other jobs but my god, I can relate to the apathy breeds apathy thing. I now feel like I really can't be bothered if someone gives me an actual task. I need out of here - the project finishes in October, but the problem is I haven't found anything at the salary I'm on for the same type of work.
Post by: dude on May 07, 2015, 07:04:50 AM
Post by: Pooperman on May 07, 2015, 07:20:57 AM
Activity in my job is sporadic. At times, I have to hustle pretty hard -- though in truth, oftentimes this is due to my propensity to procrastinate and thereby create the kind of pressure that forces me to act and get unpleasant tasks (which is to say, pretty much everything I do at work) done. At other times, I can't find enough shit to read on the internet to distract my mind from going crazy out of boredom or anxiety, especially those times when I'd otherwise be staring out the window at a glorious, sunny day, and thinking of the 1,000 other things I'd rather be doing. But fuck, I get paid an insane amount of money to do my job, all things considered, so I try, try, try to be a good employee. But holy shit is it a stretch sometimes.
What do you do?
Post by: Dollar Slice on May 07, 2015, 11:00:33 AM
Going to go work on my thumb-twiddling technique.
Post by: dude on May 07, 2015, 12:51:41 PM
If you enjoyed that then you might enjoy this:
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/
Thanks for basically destroying my entire work day with that link!!! Pretty fascinating stuff.
Post by: Spondulix on May 07, 2015, 10:56:08 PM
Ok, this is sad, but I've gone so long in my dry period at work that I've run out of things to read online. Suggestions?I second the online class idea - for credit or not. iTunes U has a lot of great options (there's a Yale class on Economics that's really great, but it's heavy)
I follow some local auctions (where the bidding happens online). I found one company nearby that auctions store returned items, and most of the time it's super cheap. I either buy things I need or things I can sell on Craigslist or Ebay (and setup the listings from work).
I'm also selling my CD collection online. I cataloged the UPC numbers already, so I can check prices (and list on Ebay) from work.
Post by: Pooja Sharma on May 08, 2015, 03:59:23 AM
God only knows what's the problem here is.
Post by: messymoneymay on May 08, 2015, 05:19:09 AM
Anyone else live in Powerpoint hell?
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
Post by: dude on May 08, 2015, 07:11:49 AM
Activity in my job is sporadic. At times, I have to hustle pretty hard -- though in truth, oftentimes this is due to my propensity to procrastinate and thereby create the kind of pressure that forces me to act and get unpleasant tasks (which is to say, pretty much everything I do at work) done. At other times, I can't find enough shit to read on the internet to distract my mind from going crazy out of boredom or anxiety, especially those times when I'd otherwise be staring out the window at a glorious, sunny day, and thinking of the 1,000 other things I'd rather be doing. But fuck, I get paid an insane amount of money to do my job, all things considered, so I try, try, try to be a good employee. But holy shit is it a stretch sometimes.
What do you do?
government attorney
Post by: dungoofed on May 08, 2015, 08:17:08 AM
Chiming in because I want to follow this thread!
Anyone else live in Powerpoint hell?
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
LOL that sounds terrible! At my previous company one or two senior guys used to spend way too much time working on decks that no-one gave a shit about. I should check whether they were at your company previously haha
Post by: golden1 on May 08, 2015, 12:16:18 PM
Quote
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
Ugh...that is soul crushing to read....
Post by: Sibley on May 08, 2015, 12:20:50 PM
Ok, this is sad, but I've gone so long in my dry period at work that I've run out of things to read online. Suggestions?
This may also be sad, but I've started going through the Mental Floss Archives for their WW1 series. They've been doing it for a few years now as a 100 years later retrospective. I feel like I missed out on learning about WW1 in school, so it's been a good read.
I went through all the Calvin & Hobbes comics. Can't remember how many years there were, but it was a lot.
Post by: nottoolatetostart on May 08, 2015, 12:28:50 PM
Chiming in because I want to follow this thread!
Anyone else live in Powerpoint hell?
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
That's my world too. I have to chuckle to myself how much $ I make just changing font sizes, reordering slides, nothing tangible at all. All the effort to only be focused on for a few minutes by executives.
Post by: Daisy on May 09, 2015, 12:07:32 AM
This thread is reminding me of David Graeber's awesome piece "On Bullshit Jobs".
It thoroughly depresses me that people work long hours "doing nothing".
OOPS! I forgot to past in the link: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
I don't have a BS job, but certain aspects of it are making me fume at the stupidity of certain tasks. I'm the technical lead on a project and it's going well...chugging along, showing progress, handling the random darts that get thrown our way as the business team and management change some requirements and timelines...I was getting into a nice groove at work and saying "this isn't too bad, and it's a great paycheck".
Then, they want me to also do some software management work which entails getting charts to look just right for some "concerned upper management" which remains nameless. I had to entail a totally pointless meeting today where one of my managers (because there ARE more than one manager...sigh) was looking at a chart and wondering why it didn't look like they thought it should. It all has to do with how others on my team log their hours. I was trying to "internally" roll my eyes so as not to seem obvious with my impatience. I mentioned how great the progress has been, but this particular manager just ignores that and insists that his charts need to look good. One of the most annoying parts is how everything he asks for is at the last minute and "just needs to be done today". Ugh...okay. I never really signed up for this management role - they just didn't want to put anyone else on it. It could be that we are increasingly short-staffed due to people leaving. My work style is more to trust those on the project that have proved they can deliver instead of constantly nagging them about silly little things - but this is what the managers want me to do. I'm trying my best to keep this excessive BS from getting to the others on the team and let them do their thing.
I felt like banging my head on the desk. It's nice to have these little annoying meetings at times to remind me that there is a reason why I want to FIRE. I don't want to spend my days looking at meaningless charts.
Sorry, just had to vent.
Post by: Oslo_gal on May 09, 2015, 04:20:08 AM
Chiming in because I want to follow this thread!
Anyone else live in Powerpoint hell?
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
Hahah! Maybe you're like those people they force us to come listen too from time to time. We have these "project support" guys that are all hired consultants to help us with project management (everyone who's cool wants to be a project manager at my workplace nowadays). Anyways, they have these incredibly intricate PPT presentations about projects. Last time I made a joke because one of the slides was a very well drawn graph of how a project could turn out. Time was on the x-axis and the y-axis went from bad up to good. Seriously. Bad vs. good. The graph showed that good projects were good, and bad projects were bad, and even if you did "good" on projects that started out "bad" it took a lot more to offset the initial "bad". hahahaha, really? So, good is good, and bad is bad? I guess that good graphics can mitigate the effect of bad content, but if the content is BS it just looks ridiculous. I could show it with a graph?:D
Post by: Albert on May 09, 2015, 07:11:41 AM
Chiming in because I want to follow this thread!
Anyone else live in Powerpoint hell?
All the work I do ends up in a slide or deck. It can't be a plain old list of bullet points either. Serious powerpoint competition at work - basically you need to be a graphic designer and produce something full of charts, coordinating colors and cram as much information in as possible. You want to develop a large network of powerpoint users so you can swap designs and ideas.
Great decks are a valuable commodity. The master powerpoint designers - lock down their designs (convert to adobe) so other people can't copy them without serious hardship.
The "deck" is then circulated and subjected to rounds of editing. Move this, add this, change this font. Ugh
Have a problem you need to solve? How do we do last week? Agenda? Random nonsense? Where is your deck? I spend a large chunk of my work week producing slides. I have developed some "go to" templates to speed it up - but that is not good enough because your slides start to look stale and they keep raising the bar.
Wow, I thought we spend way too much time and effort writing Powerpoint presentations but this is way worse...
Post by: LouLou on May 09, 2015, 08:41:08 AM
Interesting NYT article relating to this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1)
Oh, this is spot on! Thankfully I figured this out pretty fast, I never ask for permission anymore, I just leave early/come in late/take long lunches/have some fake meetings.
I basically do the same, as far as physically being in the office goes. I still work a lot - I bill by the hour. But I found that when I bill a lot and draw very little attention to when I work from home, no one notices. It helps that people I work with travel often. I answer emails promptly and have my office phone forward calls to my cell, so how would they know if I'm hanging out on my patio in the sunshine instead of in my office?
I don't have a lack-of-work problem though. Having to be at work with nothing to do sounds horrible.
Post by: ontario74 on May 09, 2015, 09:46:26 AM
I recently found a good balance at work; quality over quantity, just challenging enough, without any of that go-go nonsense. I do my hours, log my time properly...the issue is that I'm vastly under-estimated. Part of it is my fault. My position was downgraded as part of a re-organization last year after only a few months on the job (salary unchanged). My "listen and learn" approach backfired in other words. I was supposed to be showing my value right away! (urgh)
Part of me fears looking like a quiet, unambitious nerd, but that's more about any concerns about what others think of me. Others opinions aside I'm happy to work slightly below my potential (for many of the reasons listed elsewhere in this thread).
I have a 23% savings rate and a decent net worth so I really don't need the extra $$, i.e. financial incentives don't motivate me as much as they would if I had $20K in CC debt :D
Post by: Daisy on May 09, 2015, 12:14:13 PM
Interesting NYT article relating to this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/upshot/how-some-men-fake-an-80-hour-workweek-and-why-it-matters.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=1)
Oh, this is spot on! Thankfully I figured this out pretty fast, I never ask for permission anymore, I just leave early/come in late/take long lunches/have some fake meetings.
I basically do the same, as far as physically being in the office goes. I still work a lot - I bill by the hour. But I found that when I bill a lot and draw very little attention to when I work from home, no one notices. It helps that people I work with travel often. I answer emails promptly and have my office phone forward calls to my cell, so how would they know if I'm hanging out on my patio in the sunshine instead of in my office?
I don't have a lack-of-work problem though. Having to be at work with nothing to do sounds horrible.
I live by the motto: It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
You are right...if you start mentioning every time you take a call from home in the morning (because the call is with people in other cities and you can avoid rush hour traffic), you might start to get too much attention on your "flexible" schedule. If you ask for a flexible schedule, then you have to have a discussion about it and wait for permission - and they can say no. So I just take the call from home. A couple of times if someone has asked later I say I wanted to avoid rush hour traffic. Or last year, when I had to endure 5 hour phone call meetings and I was the only one at my location while everyone else was in another location, I just told my boss that it wasn't worth it for me to drive in (if I mentioned it at all).
Doing good work can help mitigate any self-flexible-work-environment issues. If you are not performing, then people will start looking at your "desk time" more closely.
It's another reason why I don't want to ask for a part time 3-4 day work week. I think then there would be more scrutiny on "desk time".
I've found it's better to do some chores throughout the day (dentist visit, Home Depot run close by, etc.) in the middle of the day. People will just think you are at a meeting. You just stay a little later to get all of your work done. We have plenty of nighttime calls with people in other countries so we are already sacrificing a lot of our personal time.
Post by: dsmexpat on June 10, 2015, 02:44:06 PM
I hold this event around four times a week and have ever since I realized that nobody really cares if you do your job well.
Post by: shotgunwilly on June 10, 2015, 03:04:50 PM
I have a special event called nowork Friday. The rules of nowork Friday are to show up, albeit a little late, to stay all day (except a long lunch) and to leave early. During this time you must create absolutely nothing of value.
I hold this event around four times a week and have ever since I realized that nobody really cares if you do your job well.
What's your one work day a week called?
Post by: dsmexpat on June 10, 2015, 03:43:41 PM
Not a position for me, I like to excel.
Post by: Schaefer Light on June 11, 2015, 06:49:03 AM
I have a special event called nowork Friday. The rules of nowork Friday are to show up, albeit a little late, to stay all day (except a long lunch) and to leave early. During this time you must create absolutely nothing of value.Funniest thing I've read all week. Well, this and the post about the guy who watches YouTube videos of people mowing grass on his day off (not that there's anything wrong with that).
I hold this event around four times a week and have ever since I realized that nobody really cares if you do your job well.
Post by: mathlete on June 11, 2015, 06:54:42 AM
This thread is reminding me of David Graeber's awesome piece "On Bullshit Jobs".
It thoroughly depresses me that people work long hours "doing nothing".
OOPS! I forgot to past in the link: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
Dude is a professor of Anthropology. I suppose he should know what qualifies as a bullshit job.
Post by: asauer on June 11, 2015, 07:23:21 AM
Post by: purplish on June 11, 2015, 12:11:17 PM
Post by: Redstone5 on June 11, 2015, 01:08:12 PM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
Yes! I'm constantly amazed at how long it takes some people to do simple tasks at work. I took over a task for a coworker the other day and couldn't believe that it usually takes him two days to organize a shipment that took me ten minutes to complete. What takes him so long?
Most of the people in my office spend most of their time looking busy, but it's not our fault. There just isn't enough work to go around right now. I wish we were solving cancer or something useful with the spare time. Honestly, I'd rather be digging a ditch outside the office instead of watching my email inbox every afternoon, hoping for work to appear. At least I'd be getting some exercise.
Post by: GodlessCommie on June 11, 2015, 01:10:18 PM
http://www.theonion.com/article/office-cheering-on-employee-going-for-32-minute-no-29689
Post by: Redstone5 on June 11, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
It's nice to hear what those "extremely high pressure" finance jobs look like. I always laugh at people who claim that they are "working 80+ hours a week" (yeah, my ass)... My previous job in academia was also in part counting hours and trying to looking busy. Such a waste.
Since I started contracting on my own and working mostly from my home office a couple years ago, I don't have this problem any more. However, my average number of billed hours per day is down to 4 (I count the remaining non-billed hours as entertainment). I hear this is about the same amount that is routinely productively spent in a 9-to-5 position.
Also, it's very true that individual productivity varies a lot, almost orders of magnitude. I noticed this when delegating work to an employee - the guy is about 5x slower than myself (and he is not paid by the hour, so I can't say he is purposefully slacking off).
Maybe it's also the effect of experience on work load. I've been at my job for 10 years now and I certainly don't need the same amount of time to accomplish tasks as I did in the first year. I wish I could leave at 2:30 when the work's done instead of just sitting around.
Post by: Redstone5 on June 11, 2015, 01:19:10 PM
I now work at home full time and can usually get all of my work done for the day in about an hour. I do have to attend many web-ex meetings where I multi-task and/or stare out the window--so that eats up another 3 to 4 hours a day. I make $140,000 a year and work for a huge corporation. I learned a long time ago to play the "I'm busy, busy, heads down" game. For 20 years I have always really wondered if everyone else was also simply pretending to be busy too.
Early in my career, I was often told to slow down and quit finishing projects so fast. When I was in the office, I learned the art of the "double lunch" which means you go to the gym at an odd time--maybe 10:00 AM or 2:30 PM and then take a second lunch break to actually eat lunch at your desk while reading a novel you downloaded to your desktop. I also would take a daily walk around the huge corporate headquarters for an hour or so with a file folder in my hand. These things made me look busy and killed time.
I love working at home full time and think all companies should work this way. It should not matter how many hours you work--you should be graded only on the quality of your work and getting it done on time and on (or under) budget.
But I will soon be trying to orchestrate my own lay off . . . so that should be fun!
This is genius! I'm going to use these ideas.
Post by: Redstone5 on June 11, 2015, 01:35:09 PM
I can absolutely relate to this. Most of my job is getting other people to do their stuff- basically babysitting. I really work about 3-4 hours/ day and then nothing. I actually wrote my novel at work b/c I had the time and I needed something to engage my brain!
I wrote a little novella at work a few months ago. I should get back to that.
Post by: mozar on June 11, 2015, 05:20:59 PM
Post by: shelivesthedream on July 09, 2015, 04:49:56 AM
I can absolutely relate to this. Most of my job is getting other people to do their stuff- basically babysitting. I really work about 3-4 hours/ day and then nothing. I actually wrote my novel at work b/c I had the time and I needed something to engage my brain!
I wrote a little novella at work a few months ago. I should get back to that.
Ugh, I YEARN for this. I could do half as much as I do at work currently and still get along just fine. My ideal would be a half hour to one hour break in the morning and afternoon. I'd be happy to work like hell the rest of the time (there is a lot to do and we are chronically understaffed) and also to spend those breaks on the computer so it looked like I was working. I'd do errands if I had them (researching purchases, DIY things) or write a novel (or nonfiction book). However, it's a small department and my screen is fully visible at all times. My only option for not working is staring into space or taking my iphone into the loo.
Post by: Digital Dogma on July 09, 2015, 11:16:49 AM
Some people around here dont even bother looking busy, I see the same guys walking out once or twice every hour to smoke cigarettes (in a supposedly smoke free workplace), they cant be doing anything productive at that rate.
If I had to look busy for most of the day Id get bored and look for work elsewhere in a hurry, thats a bad sign, a company with bad morale is a bad place to be.
Post by: asiljoy on July 09, 2015, 12:20:25 PM
Step 1: I get hired to hammer (not really, but go with me)
Step 2: I get excited to use my hammer, and meet with guy who saws and guy who uses screwdriver to see how I can best use my hammer
Step 3: Saw gut get's his shit done, but I'm waiting on screwdriver guy so that I can use my hammer
Step 4: Still waiting while screw driver guy comes up with more creative reasons why he can't use his screwdriver
Step 5: Frustrated and tired of waiting, I figure out how to do 95% of screwdriving and finish the project
Step 6: Manager sees I can now hammer and screwdriver, and now I get to do both jobs.
Step 7: I take my new found skill to find a job as a screwdriver user because I don't want to do my work and screwdriver guys.
Post by: fishnfool on July 09, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
Due to the nature of many different types of work there is often a lot of downtime. I've never felt guilty or lazy for enjoying my DT.
Post by: use2betrix on July 09, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
I am getting really burnt out of having so much down time...
The worst part about my current job is I don't even have work to pretend to be doing. I typically always sandbag a few items so if anyone came in my office I could pretend to be busy, my current job, I don't even have that.
Post by: Ditchmonkey on July 09, 2015, 03:06:53 PM
Post by: Ditchmonkey on July 09, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
I can absolutely relate to this. Most of my job is getting other people to do their stuff- basically babysitting. I really work about 3-4 hours/ day and then nothing. I actually wrote my novel at work b/c I had the time and I needed something to engage my brain!
I wrote a little novella at work a few months ago. I should get back to that.
LOL I actually just finished a pretty complicated, personal software project that I worked on for over six months while at work. I really don't like having nothing to do, but sometimes I can leverage the time into something useful.
Post by: Hall11235 on July 27, 2015, 10:01:51 AM
Post by: dsmexpat on July 27, 2015, 10:12:00 AM
In my first few days I was told I would need access to our record keeping system to pull financials and generate reports. I was given a dozen access roles to apply for, all with nonsensical letter string names. I applied for them and in the reason section I specified that I was a new hire, that I was taking over from the previous person who had all these roles and that I had been instructed by my director that I would need them.
For a week I heard nothing until eventually I pestered IT support into looking into it and telling me I had been rejected. They could not, however, see the reason.
The second week I reapplied for all the same roles explaining that I had been rejected without any visible reason but that it was imperative that I had those roles to do my job. And that if there was any issue they should call me immediately to clear up why I could not get the roles so that we could overcome the issue and let me do my job.
Several days later my boss received an email telling him that really there had been a reason given. He asked me and I screenshotted the area marked "role steward comments: no comments". They explained that the reason for rejection had been carefully spelled out in their internal system. Eventually they were willing to forward that to me.
Bear in mind here that the role stewards are secretive people and there isn't a list of them anywhere. IT support certainly didn't know who they were or how they could be contacted. For the first two weeks I was unable to discover who the person who was rejecting my roles was or why they were doing it. I could only communicate with them by creating new role requests and they could only answer through the steward comments section which they chose not to use.
By the third week and the third request I had a small number of basic roles due to my director telling them to just do it. It turns out that they wanted me to explain exactly which aspect of my job I wanted each letter string for. However unfortunately I have no idea which specific things each letter string gives me access to. What I know is that I want to access database X and that database X says that I lack roles. That might be because I don't have EFUIEHFH or it might be because I don't have FHEHETH. What I do know is that I've been told that I will need both EFUIEHFH and FHEHETH at some point and that I definitely need to be able to access database X.
I'm in the fourth week now. I can't access the database. I have created absolutely nothing of value.
Post by: Guesl982374 on July 27, 2015, 10:40:49 AM
I find the best way to look busy at work is to play with excel. I make up spreadsheets for my budget, my investments, my retirement plan, my favorite college football team's depth chart, etc.
This is perfect because anyone walking by my cube sees excel and thinks I'm doing actual work.
I go one step farther and title my excel docs with business sounding titles like "Cost Savings Tracker" for my main financial tracking sheet, "PPV analysis" for my real estate investment tool, etc so if someone sees my screen with those docs going in the background it looks like I was working on a business file.
Post by: OlyFish on July 27, 2015, 11:51:16 AM
I am also frequently working from home, checking labs, vitals, imaging, etc.
I really can't complain, though. I work 8-5 most days (sometimes 8-6) and typically 4 days a week. My job is interesting and fulfilling. And I will have my student loans paid off within 5 years.
Post by: babysnowbyrd on July 28, 2015, 04:33:21 AM
Pay sucks, but on easy nights like tonight I have 4 hours of an 8 hour shift available to do whatever I want as long as I'm available for customers. I've been trolling the forums again after some neglect, but also have done research on various interesting topics, most of which have to do with my business. For sucky pay, I'm glad I have the ability to do TONS of personal things which will hopefully net me some more money!
Free time is over now though. Gotta make breakfast.
Post by: CorpRaider on July 28, 2015, 07:42:49 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
Very perceptive. I know several people who constantly complain about how busy and stretched they are but they are terrible schedule managers (e.g., trying to attend and participate in every meeting no matter how unrelated to their duties) and also waste massive amounts of time complaining about how busy they are...
Post by: nitsuj1225 on July 28, 2015, 11:40:13 AM
100% of my MMM viewing time is at work...if it wasn't for my efficiency, I would've never found this forum.
Post by: Kitsune on July 28, 2015, 12:08:34 PM
For me, the difference is in age. I'm 27 and the range of my coworkers are 48-62 (small company). An older lady that has been working here for a decade gave me a task to do one day and she said "this normally takes me all afternoon so good luck"...took me 40 minutes. I feel like the younger generation workforce has grown up with computers their entire lives and know the most efficient ways to complete most tasks involving anything Microsoft Office while someone who used to do it by pen and paper still has that sort of mindset which doesn't always translate to the most efficient use of technology. Also, some people (again, mostly younger generations but not always) are just more technically inclined and don't need help every time Windows or an Antivirus software spews out a random unimportant alert.
100% of my MMM viewing time is at work...if it wasn't for my efficiency, I would've never found this forum.
Word.
I just started a new job at a new company where my role is basically "things aren't working; fix them". Cool, that's fine. I'm good at this. Within the first week, I had to show the person who had been doing the company's financial records for 15+ years that if she highlighted multiple cells in Excel, the total and average numbers appeared in the bottom right-hand corner, and that she didn't have to use an off-computer calculator to get the totals she was looking for.
Guess how much more efficient I am at doing the company financials? Yeeeah.
Post by: Hall11235 on July 28, 2015, 12:11:23 PM
For me, the difference is in age. I'm 27 and the range of my coworkers are 48-62 (small company). An older lady that has been working here for a decade gave me a task to do one day and she said "this normally takes me all afternoon so good luck"...took me 40 minutes. I feel like the younger generation workforce has grown up with computers their entire lives and know the most efficient ways to complete most tasks involving anything Microsoft Office while someone who used to do it by pen and paper still has that sort of mindset which doesn't always translate to the most efficient use of technology. Also, some people (again, mostly younger generations but not always) are just more technically inclined and don't need help every time Windows or an Antivirus software spews out a random unimportant alert.
100% of my MMM viewing time is at work...if it wasn't for my efficiency, I would've never found this forum.
This. 100% I am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
Post by: MDM on July 28, 2015, 12:28:17 PM
Quote
I am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
For anyone who fits this description: does your boss know how efficient you are? If all the boss sees is "person X and Y both got task A done today" then the boss will consider X and Y equally valuable - despite the fact that X struggled all day to do it, while Y did it in an hour and slacked off the rest of the day.
Post by: Schaefer Light on July 28, 2015, 12:53:26 PM
Ahh, but if the boss knows that he'll just give Y more work.QuoteI am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
For anyone who fits this description: does your boss know how efficient you are? If all the boss sees is "person X and Y both got task A done today" then the boss will consider X and Y equally valuable - despite the fact that X struggled all day to do it, while Y did it in an hour and slacked off the rest of the day.
Post by: hdatontodo on July 28, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
...Night Auditor at a hotel. I sleep a few hours in the morning after my shift and after that, I'm jumping in trying to build up my business.
...like tonight I have 4 hours of an 8 hour shift available to do whatever I want as long as I'm available for customers. ...
I did that for a motel years many ago. I used to bring my motorcyle in the lobby and clean it at night, or snooze for an hour before someone knocked. Before we got security glass, I did get held up a few times. Fun times.
Post by: sheepstache on July 28, 2015, 01:13:55 PM
For me, the difference is in age. I'm 27 and the range of my coworkers are 48-62 (small company). An older lady that has been working here for a decade gave me a task to do one day and she said "this normally takes me all afternoon so good luck"...took me 40 minutes. I feel like the younger generation workforce has grown up with computers their entire lives and know the most efficient ways to complete most tasks involving anything Microsoft Office while someone who used to do it by pen and paper still has that sort of mindset which doesn't always translate to the most efficient use of technology. Also, some people (again, mostly younger generations but not always) are just more technically inclined and don't need help every time Windows or an Antivirus software spews out a random unimportant alert.
100% of my MMM viewing time is at work...if it wasn't for my efficiency, I would've never found this forum.
Eh, but I think that's probably selection bias too, not age. You're starting out so you're closer to the bottom. All the people like you who are smarter than the old-timers quickly advance out of the department. There are many people their age in more advanced positions. These are just the ones who have made a career at this level because it's the best they can do.
Post by: Hall11235 on July 28, 2015, 01:17:57 PM
Ahh, but if the boss knows that he'll just give Y more work.QuoteI am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
For anyone who fits this description: does your boss know how efficient you are? If all the boss sees is "person X and Y both got task A done today" then the boss will consider X and Y equally valuable - despite the fact that X struggled all day to do it, while Y did it in an hour and slacked off the rest of the day.
This. Though, admittedly, they tried. I completed that work also really quickly and well. Now I am making up projects that I hope benefit the company. I'm an INTJ efficiency, task-slayin' machine.
Also, I have two bosses. The first wouldn't give flying fart if I left early after getting my work done, as long as I am still reachable during work hours. The other boss is very corporate-esque and would frown HEAVILY on any of his precious worker ants leaving before he does.
At least where I work, my coworkers chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm, and their condescension drives me nuts.
Post by: MDM on July 28, 2015, 01:21:38 PM
Ahh, but if the boss knows that he'll just give Y more work.QuoteI am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
For anyone who fits this description: does your boss know how efficient you are? If all the boss sees is "person X and Y both got task A done today" then the boss will consider X and Y equally valuable - despite the fact that X struggled all day to do it, while Y did it in an hour and slacked off the rest of the day.
Of course. And if the goal is to do the minimum real work while sitting in the cubicle for 8 hours a day for as long as it takes to reach FI, then one should keep quiet.
If the goal is to increase one's pay in order to minimize the elapsed time to FI, however, being known as someone who delivers more useful results will usually help.
There are no doubt positions or organizations in which this is not true, but too often the people who do only the minimum end up being the ones who complain about not being recognized for the value they could contribute.
Post by: babysnowbyrd on July 28, 2015, 01:31:56 PM
...Night Auditor at a hotel. I sleep a few hours in the morning after my shift and after that, I'm jumping in trying to build up my business.
...like tonight I have 4 hours of an 8 hour shift available to do whatever I want as long as I'm available for customers. ...
I did that for a motel years many ago. I used to bring my motorcyle in the lobby and clean it at night, or snooze for an hour before someone knocked. Before we got security glass, I did get held up a few times. Fun times.
Yikes! I have heard that while it's pretty menial most of the time, when you do get a problem it's a doozy! I'm in a very business-centric area that's exploding in growth, so most people that stay or even come by are your pretty average business type. Some more entitled than others but yeah.
Here's hoping for no hold ups!
Post by: MDM on July 28, 2015, 01:52:38 PM
Now I am making up projects that I hope benefit the company. I'm an INTJ efficiency, task-slayin' machine.Cool. After you do these, show your boss(es) and ask "do you want me to keep looking for things on my own, or are there certain things you'd like me to tackle instead?"
Quote
At least where I work, my coworkers chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm, and their condescension drives me nuts.Keep being helpful (at least, offering) to them, 'cuz you want friends not enemies. Do ensure that the boss (and, with help from your boss, the boss's boss) is aware of your enthusiasm and results.
Again, this all assumes you want promotion within the company because
- that will shorten your FI journey, and/or
- the work when you get promoted is still (or even more) enjoyable vs. what you do now.
Post by: Cookie78 on July 28, 2015, 02:11:42 PM
I had an interview yesterday for a promotion that seems like it would be slightly over my head. I'd have to hustle to figure it out before I sink and I'm hoping I get it just so I don't feel like an unmotivated turd. I don't expect to get it, but I didn't even expect an interview, so we will see.
I'm going for a brisk walk then coming back to focus for a bit. If nothing else, for my own sanity.
Post by: fattest_foot on July 28, 2015, 02:22:09 PM
Ahh, but if the boss knows that he'll just give Y more work.QuoteI am the youngest at my company by far, and I seem to be the only one who is ever ahead in workload. I ask my coworkers if I can help and they always say no... Age-ist bastards!
For anyone who fits this description: does your boss know how efficient you are? If all the boss sees is "person X and Y both got task A done today" then the boss will consider X and Y equally valuable - despite the fact that X struggled all day to do it, while Y did it in an hour and slacked off the rest of the day.
Of course. And if the goal is to do the minimum real work while sitting in the cubicle for 8 hours a day for as long as it takes to reach FI, then one should keep quiet.
If the goal is to increase one's pay in order to minimize the elapsed time to FI, however, being known as someone who delivers more useful results will usually help.
There are no doubt positions or organizations in which this is not true, but too often the people who do only the minimum end up being the ones who complain about not being recognized for the value they could contribute.
This might be getting a bit off topic, but I feel like job hopping is a better way to accomplish this than hoping for a promotion. If you're only talking about a 10-15 year accumulation phase, do you really want to wait a year or two for a position to open within your organization (after they finally realize your potential)? Or would you rather take initiative into your own hands and get a new, better paying, position?
Everywhere I've worked, I agree with Schaefer Light; if you prove that you're a more valuable asset than your coworkers, more likely than not you're just going to be exploited by your employer to do more work. Maybe it makes me a slacker, but if I know the output and pay of my coworkers, I'll do the minimum amount of effort to just slightly exceed that. Anything else seems like wasted energy.
That's probably why I'm typing this response at work.
Post by: nitsuj1225 on July 28, 2015, 02:53:03 PM
For me, the difference is in age. I'm 27 and the range of my coworkers are 48-62 (small company). An older lady that has been working here for a decade gave me a task to do one day and she said "this normally takes me all afternoon so good luck"...took me 40 minutes. I feel like the younger generation workforce has grown up with computers their entire lives and know the most efficient ways to complete most tasks involving anything Microsoft Office while someone who used to do it by pen and paper still has that sort of mindset which doesn't always translate to the most efficient use of technology. Also, some people (again, mostly younger generations but not always) are just more technically inclined and don't need help every time Windows or an Antivirus software spews out a random unimportant alert.
100% of my MMM viewing time is at work...if it wasn't for my efficiency, I would've never found this forum.
Eh, but I think that's probably selection bias too, not age. You're starting out so you're closer to the bottom. All the people like you who are smarter than the old-timers quickly advance out of the department. There are many people their age in more advanced positions. These are just the ones who have made a career at this level because it's the best they can do.
Like I said, I'm at a small company so this isn't the corporate ladder where age or even time at the company plays a big role in position. We have our own titles (4 or 5 of us basically on the same level doing the back-end work for the company) and do specific tasks daily but we all know how to do everyone else's work because if one person is out, someone else needs to cover them. I just know when I do some covering, I can do their work in a couple hours and wonder how they legitimately stay busy all day, or at least look like they're busy (maybe they're on this forum too?). Granted, there are days and times of the year that are busier than others so timing plays a factor as well but the main factor is efficiency.
I also wasn't putting down "old people" like another poster mentioned (albeit jokingly I think). I was just saying it has been an advantage to being young and not experiencing old ways of doing things because typically when you try to complete something using outdated techniques on updated technology, it doesn't always translate into the most efficient way. i.e. I joined the company a month after we implemented brand new software. I was not exposed to the old system so I was starting with a clean slate. The workers who knew the old system kept trying to do things the "old way" but were constantly frustrated or confused because there was a more efficient way to do things that they couldn't comprehend yet or were reluctant to try because they knew how it used to be done. They were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Meanwhile, I picked up the new system quick because I didn't know anything different.
The same thing applies to my comment about doing spreadsheets via pen, paper, and calculator. I have always known Excel and nothing different so I find it tedious to do calculations on a calculator (like some of my coworkers) when I can highlight cells and Excel tells me instantly...enter higher efficiency. Same task, but I can do it in 1/2 the time. Multiply that by dozens and dozens of calculations each day and you have why I can do 6 hours of work in 2-3 hours. I'm sure if I learned to do it originally by calculator and had done it that way for a decade, I would still probably want to keep doing it that way.
Post by: zephyr911 on July 28, 2015, 03:15:18 PM
My job was really hard for a while, but eventually my rigorous dedication to process streamlining resulted in minimal time commitments to achieve all my tasks.
I do a lot of web surfing lately. I also endlessly revise my Excel sheets for budget, net worth forecasts, tax liability estimates for current year, investment opportunity ROI projections, and of course, FIRE scenarios. Today I spent a bunch of time working up a worst-case "from here to $1M" projection in response to DW's gripes about us "having no fun so we can be rich when we're 60" (try 40, darlin') and adding a nice narrative to walk her through the chart.
I also make sure to always have a work-related page (like one of my SharePoint workspaces) handy to tab over when people stop in, since my back is to the hallway. Recent PowerPoint slides are good too.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on July 28, 2015, 04:39:38 PM
if she highlighted multiple cells in Excel, the total and average numbers appeared in the bottom right-hand corner
shit...
Post by: Hall11235 on July 29, 2015, 06:23:34 AM
Now I am making up projects that I hope benefit the company. I'm an INTJ efficiency, task-slayin' machine.Cool. After you do these, show your boss(es) and ask "do you want me to keep looking for things on my own, or are there certain things you'd like me to tackle instead?"QuoteAt least where I work, my coworkers chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm, and their condescension drives me nuts.Keep being helpful (at least, offering) to them, 'cuz you want friends not enemies. Do ensure that the boss (and, with help from your boss, the boss's boss) is aware of your enthusiasm and results.
Again, this all assumes you want promotion within the company because
- that will shorten your FI journey, and/or
- the work when you get promoted is still (or even more) enjoyable vs. what you do now.
At his point, I am driving for max income at this particular company. Once I feel that I have reached a ceiling, I will start applying for different jobs. The goal is fastest time to FIRE. Fortunately, my boss is THE boss, and he is well aware of my value.
MDM, thanks for the great advice. I have basically created the company's web presence from nothing, so there are hard, visible results to my work, which is satisfying.
Post by: MissGina on July 30, 2015, 09:37:07 AM
At my former job I wasn't very busy, and sometimes would take an "in office vacation day" where I showed up, but basically did nothing for the day. My current job is in accounting and we have to log our time. I do log half an hour each day as general office, which accounts for my bathroom trips or trips to get coffee or chat with co-workers. But I have the feeling that Big Brother is watching me. It's like one end of the spectrum to the other.
I do in office vacation days almost every Friday! I often say to myself I should have just called out, but it does feel good to surf the web all day in dress clothes.
Post by: Jersey Brett on July 30, 2015, 11:17:26 AM
The managers at my office chat everyone up. Or talk about themselves endlessly. I know all about one manager who recently bought a side of a cow. Another likes to talk about which restaurants he likes to go to.
Hope he bought the inside.
Post by: birdman2003 on July 31, 2015, 12:31:59 PM
Post by: genealogist on August 02, 2015, 09:30:16 PM
Post by: kiwichick on August 02, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
Although I love my coworkers (most of them anyway) and am quite content here in most aspects, the boredom is really getting to me now. I've decided to go back to university so I get back to using my brain.
Post by: Guesl982374 on August 03, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
I could easily surf the internet at work all day without compromising job quality, deadlines or the like, but I have to sign a technology agreement periodically (everyone does) agreeing not to. I am too worried about getting caught to bend the rules. Do none of you have to sign such a contract?
Who cares? If you produce results you aren't going to get fired if all content is safe for work. Rules can always be bent for top performers.
Post by: AZDude on August 03, 2015, 02:32:16 PM
I could easily surf the internet at work all day without compromising job quality, deadlines or the like, but I have to sign a technology agreement periodically (everyone does) agreeing not to. I am too worried about getting caught to bend the rules. Do none of you have to sign such a contract?
HAHAHAHAHA.... oh wait... is this a serious question? Absolutely worst case scenario... they find me surfing MMM during the work day(the horror!), and I am immediately fired. I rejoice at my good fortune, skip and sing and dance my way out of the office and enjoy a brief respite before I pick up a new job.
In practicality... I have never, ever, even one single time been asked to stop surfing the internet while at work despite being very prolific at this particular pastime. One time, long ago, I was asked to stop listening to online podcast because it might slow down our network. That has been the only incident in my 12+ year career when I was asked about my internet use.
As long as you are not surfing porn or other obviously non-PC sites, and you are getting your work done, no one, especially not your boss, is going to care. If you go really crazy, the network admin might stop by and tell you to tone it down for the health of the network.
Post by: mastrr on August 03, 2015, 05:29:06 PM
I try to be effective and efficient as possible when I'm "working". I hustle in the morning because I'm naturally a morning person and my productivity gradually fades throughout the day (intentionally).
Some other things that I do:
1. keep myself at a distance - to encourage my manager NOT to delegate tasks to me
2. do all of the things that my boss asks me that he measures - I work this in because it keeps him off my back because I making him look good to his boss. This eliminates phone calls because he "trusts" that I will get it done.
3. I don't engage in gossip much because it will just waste my mental energy and time.
4. not to be too nice because people start to take advantage
5. if someone asks me to do something, I always pick my battles smartly and usually negotiate with them about something they can do for me. This leads to less people asking me to do things.
6. I keep a tight schedule and don't deviate from it often unless I deem it an immediate need for attention. This leads to co-workers / managers doing it themselves.
Post by: DaMa on August 04, 2015, 05:37:01 PM
I could easily surf the internet at work all day without compromising job quality, deadlines or the like, but I have to sign a technology agreement periodically (everyone does) agreeing not to. I am too worried about getting caught to bend the rules. Do none of you have to sign such a contract?
My company has it on the login screen. We have to click "I understand" every morning. I have been saying for at least 13 years that if they ever want to fire me, they can get me for internet use. It has never been mentioned. Nothing blatantly inappropriate, but certainly not work related.
Post by: twojabs on August 05, 2015, 04:42:03 PM
At my former job I wasn't very busy, and sometimes would take an "in office vacation day" where I showed up, but basically did nothing for the day. My current job is in accounting and we have to log our time. I do log half an hour each day as general office, which accounts for my bathroom trips or trips to get coffee or chat with co-workers. But I have the feeling that Big Brother is watching me. It's like one end of the spectrum to the other.
Logging time of the most invasive and child like mode of operation that any manager could force on their employees. It's crazy. Get the right people in to do a job and let them do it. Pointless waste of effort and concentration which brings 0 value to the workforce or morale.
Absolute pet hate... Wait till I'm the MD.
Post by: accolay on August 05, 2015, 09:45:24 PM
Quote
Do none of you have to sign such a contract?
Conspiracy Theory says that those contracts are just to get you fired if they decide they don't like you.
Post by: lostamonkey on August 07, 2015, 08:11:09 PM
At my former job I wasn't very busy, and sometimes would take an "in office vacation day" where I showed up, but basically did nothing for the day. My current job is in accounting and we have to log our time. I do log half an hour each day as general office, which accounts for my bathroom trips or trips to get coffee or chat with co-workers. But I have the feeling that Big Brother is watching me. It's like one end of the spectrum to the other.
Logging time of the most invasive and child like mode of operation that any manager could force on their employees. It's crazy. Get the right people in to do a job and let them do it. Pointless waste of effort and concentration which brings 0 value to the workforce or morale.
Absolute pet hate... Wait till I'm the MD.
Logging time is completely neccassary in some jobs. How else would the boss know how much to bill the client?
Post by: CashStashFever on August 08, 2015, 02:01:52 PM
Post by: Slee_stack on August 09, 2015, 07:54:10 AM
If it were just being 'inefficient', that would be one thing, but I tend to be told I'm the most effective on my projetcs...which is why I always get more and more things dumped on me.
I am taking this to heart though and am now motivated to de-motivate. What a fool I've been. Ugh.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on August 09, 2015, 08:37:21 AM
I am currently 200 - 300% loaded, so there are always more things not getting done than what I can actually get to.
I am taking this to heart though and am now motivated to de-motivate.
You don't have to be one of the slackers, but you do have to set a limit for yourself on how hard you'll work and how stressed you'll let yourself get. The company will take from you as much as you're willing to give. At some point you have to be willing to say 'enough'. If you're a good worker, constantly having more work than can get done is a scheduling/staffing problem, which is your bosses problem, not yours (once you communicate the problem to them). Do as much as you can reasonably get done and don't stress over the rest.
Post by: WerKater on August 09, 2015, 09:14:10 AM
Same here. It is actually something that annoys me but all of us have to log time because that is what the bills to our customers are based on. Fortunately, we do only business-to-business. I am one of the project leaders who has to proofread the reports for my project at the end of the month. And I can tell you: as long as the project is on time and on budget, and the customer is happy, I don't give a shit what exactly my team members write in the work reports as long as it is somewhat on topic (and as long as they don't use curse words).At my former job I wasn't very busy, and sometimes would take an "in office vacation day" where I showed up, but basically did nothing for the day. My current job is in accounting and we have to log our time. I do log half an hour each day as general office, which accounts for my bathroom trips or trips to get coffee or chat with co-workers. But I have the feeling that Big Brother is watching me. It's like one end of the spectrum to the other.
Logging time of the most invasive and child like mode of operation that any manager could force on their employees. It's crazy. Get the right people in to do a job and let them do it. Pointless waste of effort and concentration which brings 0 value to the workforce or morale.
Absolute pet hate... Wait till I'm the MD.
Logging time is completely neccassary in some jobs. How else would the boss know how much to bill the client?
Post by: Mr Dumpster Stache on August 09, 2015, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: ArcadeStache on August 09, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
Darn. I've read most of the pages here (on the weekend) and feel like a major sucker. I tend to get a max of 1 hour a day 'free time' including 'lunch'. Beyond that, its nose to the grind. I am currently 200 - 300% loaded, so there are always more things not getting done than what I can actually get to. And now I realize that I've let myself get loaded like this while it appears most people are perpetual slackers. I'm actually a bit PO'd by this, but I do realize its my own fault for trying to do the 'right thing'...for the company anyway.
If it were just being 'inefficient', that would be one thing, but I tend to be told I'm the most effective on my projetcs...which is why I always get more and more things dumped on me.
I am taking this to heart though and am now motivated to de-motivate. What a fool I've been. Ugh.
Been there, done that. Trust me, you are headed major burnout. Throttle back to whatever level you feel comfortable with to still keep your job and boss mostly satisfied. Otherwise you'll just end up fat, sick, cranky and resentful toward your coworkers and boss. Find a decent work life balance and put more energy toward other positive things in your life.
Post by: YK-Phil on August 09, 2015, 08:06:05 PM
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
Before I took this job, I remember my predecessor, who was a close acquaintance and had been in that job for SEVEN years, telling me how much he enjoyed his work...now I understand why...The downside to this is that the money I get paid to do nothing makes it really difficult to pull the plug and RE. One more year and I'm done.
Post by: lostamonkey on August 09, 2015, 08:09:27 PM
On October 21, 2015, it will be two years that I have done practically nothing at my job as the CEO of a small agency. At most, I work one hour a day in a typical week. Every quarter, I have two full days of board meetings, followed by a couple of hours to draft minutes and action items. Then back to the one-hour per day routine, or much less if I don't count coffee breaks.
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
Before I took this job, I remember my predecessor, who was a close acquaintance and had been in that job for SEVEN years, telling me how much he enjoyed his work...now I understand why...The downside to this is that the money I get paid to do nothing makes it really difficult to pull the plug and RE. One more year and I'm done.
Since you are the CEO can you just surf the web and watch YouTube videos all day or do you have to pretend that you are actually working?
Post by: zing12 on August 09, 2015, 08:14:22 PM
My job can often feel like a contest for who can make it look like they work the hardest/longest hours. It does annoy me because I feel that we could all be doing other things with much of our time. I play the game to a certain extent but refuse to spend too much of my nights and weekends on it.
I feel like a slacker but overall I appear to have a pretty good reputation and people like me and think I have a good work ethic. I'm always worried I'm going to get "found out" or exposed as a slacker but it never happens.
I have pretty good relationships with my coworkers and managers but this stuff is never discussed. So I have no idea what is going on in other people's heads on issues like these.
Post by: MMMdude on August 09, 2015, 08:43:33 PM
Post by: YK-Phil on August 09, 2015, 09:31:44 PM
Since you are the CEO can you just surf the web and watch YouTube videos all day or do you have to pretend that you are actually working?
A bit of both. But I get bored watching videos so I have started one online course through Coursera and am also brushing up on my Spanish.
Post by: mastrr on August 10, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
Since you are the CEO can you just surf the web and watch YouTube videos all day or do you have to pretend that you are actually working?
A bit of both. But I get bored watching videos so I have started one online course through Coursera and am also brushing up on my Spanish.
thats unbelievable
Post by: mozar on August 10, 2015, 08:55:40 PM
Quote
QuoteQuote from: mozar on June 11, 2015, 05:20:59 PM
The managers at my office chat everyone up. Or talk about themselves endlessly. I know all about one manager who recently bought a side of a cow. Another likes to talk about which restaurants he likes to go to.
Hope he bought the inside.
Hope so!
I actually got in trouble because I was looking at my phone when my boss snuck up behind me. So now I'm being "punished" by having to sit in the cubicle next to her so she can watch me for 8 hours straight. Only 6 weeks to go until I switch clients!
When my manager showed me this, I backed slowly away...
http://geekologie.com/2010/07/now-thats-classy-worlds-most-e.php
Post by: Fuzzy Buttons on August 11, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
What, are you sleeping on a couch in your office? So everyone thinks you arrive earlier and leave later than them?
Post by: YK-Phil on August 11, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
What, are you sleeping on a couch in your office? So everyone thinks you arrive earlier and leave later than them?
Every day, I am the first one at work, and the last one to leave :D
Post by: Davids on October 16, 2015, 12:05:12 PM
Post by: Bearded Man on October 16, 2015, 12:28:18 PM
Luckily I have a gig now that is relaxed and pays even better, but I know when this gig ends never to go back to a professional services gig. I also do not enjoy start ups.
Post by: stlbrah on October 16, 2015, 01:25:55 PM
Post by: bigstack on October 17, 2015, 10:14:24 AM
my friends loved it.
most only work at large companies with large campuses.
some of my favorites were:
1. before you leave work print off something to the printer by the door to the office. pick it up the next day when you walk in at 9 or 10am. (this saved me a few times as my boss would say oh there you are i was just walking by and didnt see you..."oh i was just getting something from the printer (and hold up the sheets)")
2. never take your lunch when others do....take it at 11 if they take it closer to noon.thus you get to have their lunch time off as well.
3. avoid carrying a backpack or briefcase(unless you are actually coming and going during normal times). but have one sitting beside your desk and move it around during the week. people come by the cube and see your bag and assume you must be in the office somewhere. if you come walking down the hall with your laptop or printouts etc and no bag people assume you were in a meeting .
4. long lunch breaks 2+hours are now your "bonus"
5. leaving work early is your "raise"
6. coming in late is "comp-time" for all those long hours you have put in...
7. in relation to #4 I always block off the "typical" lunch time on my calendar everyday...when asked about it i say it helps prevent the project managers from booking times when the client usually takes their lunch..."so while sure they can book me they might not be able to book the clients time as well"
8. in relation to #5. I block off the last hour of the day everyday...i have been asked about this as well by bosses and state "it is just so i can have an uninterrupted hour to wrap things up and create my to do list for the next day.".... they eat that crap up.
9. office slacker buddy. find someone that you can cover for and that will cover for you.these people need to be relatively smart... they need to know not to give specifics..."I think i saw him walk by about 3o min ago"..."he said something about leaving something in his car and going to get it"...also this guy if he gets to the office before you can tell you that hey the boss is not in today ..or hey he is looking for you... and you do the same for him.
Ideally you have diff bosses, but you sit near each other.
10. for those remote employees or bosses that work on other side of campus but monitor people activity via lync/IM status...buy a rotating fan and clip a wired mouse to it(hide it under desk).... plug the mouse into the pc/laptop...turn on rotating/oscillating fan... why golle gee beev what does it do? it buys you hours of not being at your desk is what it does.
11. automated/scripts for emails and work batch/manual jobs. kick these off at times later in evening or early in morning. gives a paper trail of the hard hours you put in.
12. if in IT always have a linux terminal up and running in green...with a log file(or some script) constantly scrolling by. managers walk by and think "my god that guy must be a genius tech geek" "it's the matrix in his office"
13. your screen saver isnt a screen saver it is a picture of a excel spreadsheet.
oh it goes on and on.
Post by: Davids on October 17, 2015, 12:34:28 PM
Post by: Tig_ on October 17, 2015, 06:46:51 PM
I'm about a year into my position - took me a while to figure out this was how it worked here. I'm on a two person team (unless you count students/interns) in a much larger unit. Mostly, my boss can't keep track of time very well and isn't very efficient.
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
I've added private meetings before/after work hours on those days when my boss has meetings out of the office so I remember to bring homework in on those days. The woman is this role before me (although part-time grad student) ended out her time here doing 4 remote days a week. In my full-time role, I do have a lot more meetings to attend so I don't think I'll ever get to that level, but I need to figure out a way to broach this work from home thing. I know my boss will be fine with it, just need to find a way to spin it so that she doesn't think it's because I want to do homework... Might start this Tuesday since I do actually have a big project coming up and be like, wow, it's amazing how much more you get done at home without that office chit-chat! and see if she bites. The team I share office space with hired two new grad-students. There have been a few times my boss has come in and seen us chit chatting. So I think the whole "now that there are more people in the office..." line will work. ;)
Post by: bigstack on October 17, 2015, 11:23:12 PM
Glad this has resurfaced over the past few days. Good timing for me to dive in to the thread.
I'm about a year into my position - took me a while to figure out this was how it worked here. I'm on a two person team (unless you count students/interns) in a much larger unit. Mostly, my boss can't keep track of time very well and isn't very efficient.
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
I've added private meetings before/after work hours on those days when my boss has meetings out of the office so I remember to bring homework in on those days. The woman is this role before me (although part-time grad student) ended out her time here doing 4 remote days a week. In my full-time role, I do have a lot more meetings to attend so I don't think I'll ever get to that level, but I need to figure out a way to broach this work from home thing. I know my boss will be fine with it, just need to find a way to spin it so that she doesn't think it's because I want to do homework... Might start this Tuesday since I do actually have a big project coming up and be like, wow, it's amazing how much more you get done at home without that office chit-chat! and see if she bites. The team I share office space with hired two new grad-students. There have been a few times my boss has come in and seen us chit chatting. So I think the whole "now that there are more people in the office..." line will work. ;)
the best way i have found to initiate working from home (done it myself and also talked friends through it).
is to one day just tell them i need to work from home today cause the repairman is coming over to fix xyz.
or another i have used is ...i have something expensive being delivered...
basically that lets you know if they will even let it happen or not...if not they will say "you need to take a vacation day".
if they say "ok no problem"...make sure you are available and send out bs emails letting them know that you are getting your job done.
but that is just the start to the process...you then have to start working from home on random days , just one per week and never mon or friday...monday and friday are psychological barriers for a manager that trigger "the employee is getting a three day weekend" thoughts.
after one day a week is the norm work 2 days tues and thursday...then 3 on occasion.... at the same time you never ask to work from home(besides the first 1-2 times)....you tell them "hey i am working from home today"...asking them gives them power....don't give them power. clear statements of "I am going to work from home today". will keep you in control.they will respond with "ok" or not at all. either is acceptance. if you ask you are "their child" and they are used to answering in the negative. also mix in days on the 3 day a week stage where you don't even tell them you just do it.
basically ramp it up slowly they will realize that your work is still getting done on time etc...
to do this you need to be self aware of your work situation and the actual needs of the company/project you are working on..
Post by: Tjat on October 18, 2015, 08:28:15 AM
Post by: notquitefrugal on October 18, 2015, 09:02:25 AM
Some of this sounds very familiar. May I also add that when you're bored, one other go-to is to schedule a meeting. If you have 2 hours of work in a day, you first need to schedule a pre-meeting to discuss how you want to present the material to the larger group at the real meeting. Then you need to have a post-meeting to recap the real meeting and send out minutes and followups via email. Always offer to schedule another meeting to answer any questions. Boom full day right there folks
Caveat: This will piss off anyone who has more than 2 hours of work to do that day who also has to attend the meeting, pre- and post-meetings, and read the followup email.
Post by: Tig_ on October 18, 2015, 09:41:25 AM
at the same time you never ask to work from home(besides the first 1-2 times)....you tell them "hey i am working from home today"...asking them gives them power....don't give them power. clear statements of "I am going to work from home today". will keep you in control.they will respond with "ok" or not at all. either is acceptance. if you ask you are "their child" and they are used to answering in the negative. also mix in days on the 3 day a week stage where you don't even tell them you just do it.
Thanks for this bigstack. This is my main problem. I don't think my boss will have a problem with it, she might even encourage it (gets me out of her hair). But it's all about the packaging and I definitely tend towards the deferential, mother may I, which I really need to get over.
Post by: Albert on October 18, 2015, 01:27:13 PM
Some of this sounds very familiar. May I also add that when you're bored, one other go-to is to schedule a meeting. If you have 2 hours of work in a day, you first need to schedule a pre-meeting to discuss how you want to present the material to the larger group at the real meeting. Then you need to have a post-meeting to recap the real meeting and send out minutes and followups via email. Always offer to schedule another meeting to answer any questions. Boom full day right there folks
That's a great way to make enemies plus being in the meeting is work too.
Post by: Tjat on October 18, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
Post by: TomTX on October 19, 2015, 05:50:31 AM
Some of this sounds very familiar. May I also add that when you're bored, one other go-to is to schedule a meeting. If you have 2 hours of work in a day, you first need to schedule a pre-meeting to discuss how you want to present the material to the larger group at the real meeting. Then you need to have a post-meeting to recap the real meeting and send out minutes and followups via email. Always offer to schedule another meeting to answer any questions. Boom full day right there folks
Schedule ACTUAL meetings that I have to sit in as a timefiller?
So YOU"RE that asshole who invites me to all the worthless meetings. Generate your own cover and leave me the fuck out of it.
Post by: Schaefer Light on October 19, 2015, 06:50:49 AM
well I probably should've stated that I personally don't set up (or attend) extraneous meetings. I usually just skip them unless set up by a higher up. What I have observed is a correlation between people of limited productive value and their need to "socialize" anything and every thing with half the company. These are the same people that can't commit to any ideas for fear of displeasing someone but at the same time view themselves as critical cogs of the corporate machine.So true.
Post by: StetsTerhune on October 19, 2015, 06:56:05 AM
Some of this sounds very familiar. May I also add that when you're bored, one other go-to is to schedule a meeting. If you have 2 hours of work in a day, you first need to schedule a pre-meeting to discuss how you want to present the material to the larger group at the real meeting. Then you need to have a post-meeting to recap the real meeting and send out minutes and followups via email. Always offer to schedule another meeting to answer any questions. Boom full day right there folks
Schedule ACTUAL meetings that I have to sit in as a timefiller?
So YOU"RE that asshole who invites me to all the worthless meetings. Generate your own cover and leave me the fuck out of it.
Yeah, don't schedule actual meetings, everyone hates that guy. Do schedule fake meetings with people you trust at work. Depending on the situation, it may help to limit this to people you can actually justify having a meeting with. Don't have the meeting though, just go home early. Or if it's in the middle of the day go for a walk/coffee/drink/home for a quick nap.
Post by: slamuel on October 19, 2015, 08:50:05 AM
I feel sorry for folks in that situation, either in reality or due to their own mindset.
Never had the feeling that there was nothing to do. Quite the opposite: there was always more doable than time to do it. Had the good fortune to work with and for very good people for the vast majority of my career.
Getting to FI did coincide with running into a few bad apples that were spoiling things at work and made it that much easier to go from FI to FIRE.
I think some of this may have to do with how people perform their jobs.
Some people are very focused and efficient. They grab a task and bear down on it, killing it quickly. They tend to need far less than the "normal" amount of time to perform a task, and hence often find themselves with a lot free time on the job. Since most employers in a traditional setting expect their employees to be sitting in the office for "x" hours per day, these folks need to find fillers (surfing the net, BSing, etc).
Others, doing the same job, looked frazzled for 12-hours per day. Always busy, busy, busy. Never a free moment to relax, it's just go go go. They work long hours. Get in early, leave late. Yet they often get no more done than Mr. "Net Surf." I think it's because these folks are typically NOT well focused- they are easily distracted by other "work" related items (emails, phone calls, meetings, cake parties, whatever). They might be the type to over analyze everything and take forever to make a decision. That can be something as simple as taking an hour to send out a simple 2-paragraph email. They have to use just the right words- they write the email, erase it, think about it, rewrite it, edit it, then finally send it out. In the end, that email is no better than if they had just banged it out in 5 minutes like Mr. "Net Surf." You can imagine how inefficient these kind of folks can be preparing reports or conducing any other long term project.
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
Two different folks given the same task, with similar final results, but one is done in an instant, and the other turns the simple task into a major production.
It has nothing to do with education or intelligence. My wife is very well educated, high experienced, and very intelligent, but she's one of those "busy busy busy" types- she just makes a mountain out of every molehill. Frets over every minor detail. Can't understand how "net surf" folks like myself can get so much work done and never have to work late.
So which employee is the "good" employee and which is the "bad?" I figure if both are getting the job done for roughly the same salary, there is no "good" or "bad," just different.
THIS. A normally good indicator of which category you fall into is how you organize your emails (in a corporate environment). I find that folks who have tons of unread messages, no organization, etc. normally are people who are constantly stressed, confused, and not able to focus and handle all of the incoming requests.
People who know how to take inputs (emails, conversations, etc.) and quickly file them and handle them save a TON of time. This was a skill I mastered at my very first professional job and it's saved me a ton of time over the years.
I managed a team at my last job. I realized I was highly efficient when we lost 3 people (who were clearly the unorganized and constantly busy types) and I was able to take on all of their workload without increasing my 40-50 hour work week.
I started to examine this a bit and it became clear that some people are so disorganized that they end up spending a large amount of their time trying to get caught up/organized and/or taking care of "easy" stuff that adds little to no value at all, but takes up important time.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on October 19, 2015, 11:19:59 AM
Post by: monkeytree on October 19, 2015, 11:33:15 AM
Post by: Guesl982374 on October 19, 2015, 11:58:49 AM
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
Tig - A way around this is to scan/snap pictures of the pages you will need the night before in your text book so you can read them on your phone if just for reference or on your PC via dropbox/email. If you need a page from another section, Google the information and you'll get close enough.
All the big textbook info, none of the bulk.
Post by: couponvan on October 19, 2015, 01:03:40 PM
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
Tig - A way around this is to scan/snap pictures of the pages you will need the night before in your text book so you can read them on your phone if just for reference or on your PC via dropbox/email. If you need a page from another section, Google the information and you'll get close enough.
All the big textbook info, none of the bulk.
Now that was brilliant....
Post by: Apocalyptica602 on October 19, 2015, 01:53:18 PM
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
Tig - A way around this is to scan/snap pictures of the pages you will need the night before in your text book so you can read them on your phone if just for reference or on your PC via dropbox/email. If you need a page from another section, Google the information and you'll get close enough.
All the big textbook info, none of the bulk.
Now that was brilliant....
Good idea! Most of my classes come with pdfs of the textbook when you buy them through my bookstore so I don't usually have this problem.
My problem was finding space to discreetly do homework at work. I sit in a cubicle with my screen facing a major walkway.
I schedule solo meetings in a conference room, face my laptop away from the door window, and move the conference room phone so it appears like I'm on a call.
Ironically, people walk by and later I'm complimented for my courteousness in taking conference calls away from my desk since people hate it when loud phone talkers disturb others.
I sit in a cubicle so it's expected if possible that I conduct teleconferences in
Post by: bigstack on October 19, 2015, 02:34:51 PM
Wow, you guys are awesome. No wonder these forums are always so active! I constantly struggle with feeling guilty about having so much DT, but now I can just tell myself I'm just super efficient like the rest of you!
You show me a lazy man and I will show you an efficient man.
:)
Post by: JoeBlow on October 19, 2015, 02:49:23 PM
13. your screen saver isnt a screen saver it is a picture of a excel spreadsheet.
Also, you can prevent your computer from ever going to screensaver so people will think you must have just left your desk within the past 5-10 minutes.
1. Open windows media player.
2. Put it on mute.
3. Open up any MP3. I think there is a sample MP3 with the default windows installation.
4. Click the loop forever button.
5. Minimize it.
6. Profit.
Post by: AZDude on October 19, 2015, 02:51:27 PM
For those trying to work from home, another tip I've heard is to do less work when in the office and save it for when you're working from home, so now working from home is more productive than being in the office. For those of us with not enough to do to keep busy as it is, it's a hard balancing act.
Really? I always did the opposite when working from home. When I was actually in the office and chained to my desk, I would work as hard as possible to get all my work done in those two days, so the other three I could spend goofing off, doing laundry, DIY projects, etc... while just monitoring my inbox.
Post by: theSlowTurtle on October 19, 2015, 03:04:10 PM
So you just don't report all your progress at work and save some of it as "accomplished at home"For those trying to work from home, another tip I've heard is to do less work when in the office and save it for when you're working from home, so now working from home is more productive than being in the office. For those of us with not enough to do to keep busy as it is, it's a hard balancing act.
Really? I always did the opposite when working from home. When I was actually in the office and chained to my desk, I would work as hard as possible to get all my work done in those two days, so the other three I could spend goofing off, doing laundry, DIY projects, etc... while just monitoring my inbox.
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on October 19, 2015, 05:48:11 PM
She loves it she never gets logged out.
Post by: Tig_ on October 19, 2015, 06:58:35 PM
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
Tig - A way around this is to scan/snap pictures of the pages you will need the night before in your text book so you can read them on your phone if just for reference or on your PC via dropbox/email. If you need a page from another section, Google the information and you'll get close enough.
All the big textbook info, none of the bulk.
Now that was brilliant....
Right??!
Too bad I'll have to wait till Wednesday to try it as I'm working from home tomorrow... ;)
Post by: Bearded Man on October 19, 2015, 09:51:23 PM
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
What, are you sleeping on a couch in your office? So everyone thinks you arrive earlier and leave later than them?
Every day, I am the first one at work, and the last one to leave :D
Does your office not have janitorial services???
Post by: YK-Phil on October 19, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
I remember my first week at work. It was a disaster and I stressed about my new responsibilities and the fact nobody was there to help me out, until i realized a week later that this job was a real hide-out, in more ways than one: I've also secretly become an office hobo and have lived in the office for almost two years...
What, are you sleeping on a couch in your office? So everyone thinks you arrive earlier and leave later than them?
Every day, I am the first one at work, and the last one to leave :D
Does your office not have janitorial services???
We did but I found that out the hard way, the first day I "moved in", when the cleaning lady barged in our office at 3 am, wearing headphones and singing a Filipino song at the top of her lungs...after this rude awakening, I decided to get rid of the contract and since that time, I added the janitorial duties to my executive job description, less than a couple of hours of mindless but enjoyable work per week...another mustachian in a different thread suggested I give the cleaning contract to a new company, YKphil Janitorial, but I think I'll keep everything quiet until I pull the plug on this job. Considering the absurd rents and the astronomical cost of utilities in this little northern town, plus the fact that I am here alone without my wife, this arrangement is more than suitable and saves me quite a lot of money, and I actually get a good kick out of it.
Post by: Guesl982374 on October 20, 2015, 07:07:29 AM
I read a lot of MMM in my first year. I'm taking two classes now, but am struggling to find a way to get the homework done at work (can't quickly and easily hide that giant textbook). It's frustrating to not have enough work at work but also have no free time when I'm at home.
Tig - A way around this is to scan/snap pictures of the pages you will need the night before in your text book so you can read them on your phone if just for reference or on your PC via dropbox/email. If you need a page from another section, Google the information and you'll get close enough.
All the big textbook info, none of the bulk.
Now that was brilliant....
Right??!
Too bad I'll have to wait till Wednesday to try it as I'm working from home tomorrow... ;)
Glad to help.
Post by: pbkmaine on October 20, 2015, 08:05:39 AM
Post by: swashbucklinstache on October 23, 2015, 04:50:42 PM
Post by: rantk81 on October 24, 2015, 06:59:35 AM
http://www.zhornsoftware.co.uk/caffeine/index.html
There's a mac version too in the Mac App store.
Post by: The_path_less_taken on October 24, 2015, 07:42:10 AM
Yesterday was so bad I clocked out for lunch two hours early.
Today...I dunno. Counter-productive as it is, I sent a letter to his boss because...you have to pay me more or annoy me less. Period. He'll be spitting mad when he finds out and be even more abusive...and I am SO done putting up with it. Beyond a hostile work environment.
So everyone get their bail money ready for me today....and pray I don't need it.
(deep breaths, yeah....that's the ticket. although it didn't work for shit yesterday.)
Post by: Tjat on October 24, 2015, 11:00:07 AM
My goal for today is to not punch my boss in the face. Seriously.
Yesterday was so bad I clocked out for lunch two hours early.
Today...I dunno. Counter-productive as it is, I sent a letter to his boss because...you have to pay me more or annoy me less. Period. He'll be spitting mad when he finds out and be even more abusive...and I am SO done putting up with it. Beyond a hostile work environment.
So everyone get their bail money ready for me today....and pray I don't need it.
(deep breaths, yeah....that's the ticket. although it didn't work for shit yesterday.)
Keep in mind that if he hits you first, you can probably get a nice payout from the company. Especially since the company didn't appropriately address your complaint letter.
Of course you could be a angry nutcase, in which case you should probably find another job before you end up in jail.
Post by: Bearded Man on October 26, 2015, 11:12:05 AM
at one point years ago i created a list of things people could do to appear to be at work/doing work while really doing nothing or not be there at all. it was like 100 items long.
my friends loved it.
most only work at large companies with large campuses.
some of my favorites were:
1. before you leave work print off something to the printer by the door to the office. pick it up the next day when you walk in at 9 or 10am. (this saved me a few times as my boss would say oh there you are i was just walking by and didnt see you..."oh i was just getting something from the printer (and hold up the sheets)")
2. never take your lunch when others do....take it at 11 if they take it closer to noon.thus you get to have their lunch time off as well.
3. avoid carrying a backpack or briefcase(unless you are actually coming and going during normal times). but have one sitting beside your desk and move it around during the week. people come by the cube and see your bag and assume you must be in the office somewhere. if you come walking down the hall with your laptop or printouts etc and no bag people assume you were in a meeting .
4. long lunch breaks 2+hours are now your "bonus"
5. leaving work early is your "raise"
6. coming in late is "comp-time" for all those long hours you have put in...
7. in relation to #4 I always block off the "typical" lunch time on my calendar everyday...when asked about it i say it helps prevent the project managers from booking times when the client usually takes their lunch..."so while sure they can book me they might not be able to book the clients time as well"
8. in relation to #5. I block off the last hour of the day everyday...i have been asked about this as well by bosses and state "it is just so i can have an uninterrupted hour to wrap things up and create my to do list for the next day.".... they eat that crap up.
9. office slacker buddy. find someone that you can cover for and that will cover for you.these people need to be relatively smart... they need to know not to give specifics..."I think i saw him walk by about 3o min ago"..."he said something about leaving something in his car and going to get it"...also this guy if he gets to the office before you can tell you that hey the boss is not in today ..or hey he is looking for you... and you do the same for him.
Ideally you have diff bosses, but you sit near each other.
10. for those remote employees or bosses that work on other side of campus but monitor people activity via lync/IM status...buy a rotating fan and clip a wired mouse to it(hide it under desk).... plug the mouse into the pc/laptop...turn on rotating/oscillating fan... why golle gee beev what does it do? it buys you hours of not being at your desk is what it does.
11. automated/scripts for emails and work batch/manual jobs. kick these off at times later in evening or early in morning. gives a paper trail of the hard hours you put in.
12. if in IT always have a linux terminal up and running in green...with a log file(or some script) constantly scrolling by. managers walk by and think "my god that guy must be a genius tech geek" "it's the matrix in his office"
13. your screen saver isnt a screen saver it is a picture of a excel spreadsheet.
oh it goes on and on.
I would like to add to this brilliant list: always carry a notebook and pen everywhere you go. People see me walking in the parking lot and they ask me if I'm going to a meeting, and I'm like, YUP! Really I'm just going to eat breakfast at the cafeteria....
I really like the oscillating fan with mouse tied to it, and the excel spreadsheet screensaver. Sadly all of our stuff is managed via group policy. Oh, I actually pull logs via PowerShell all the time and have it looping through the logs or pinging the servers, etc. People, especially not IT people, come by and ask me what that is, it looks important. I tell them I'm decompiling code.
Post by: Bearded Man on October 26, 2015, 11:15:44 AM
Then you have people like me who get everything and the kitchen sink dropped on their plate because of all the people who are making crap up to do so that they can try to justify their positions. No more, I work at a snails pace...
Post by: zephyr911 on October 26, 2015, 11:47:44 AM
I've turned 20-30 hours a week in basic recurring tasks into 5-10 by continually refining my practices and maximizing efficiency. This makes it easy to crush critical one-time needs like small design projects and cultivate the image of a specialist as opposed to an all-day workhorse.
It's so easy at this point, and SR is so high, that I have lost all desire to advance... as rigidly structured as things are, I could never move up fast enough to justify the effort. Easier to devote the brainpower to more cost-cutting and investment planning, and to be genuinely happy for those who set out to ascend the ladder. More power to 'em! :)
Post by: goodlife on November 26, 2015, 12:28:33 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/jobs/bored-to-tears-by-a-do-nothing-dream-job.html
I totally feel this guy, I just had 6 months of absolutely nothing to do and now being back to having a ton to do....
Post by: bigstack on November 26, 2015, 06:11:00 PM
Guys, another good article just on this topic, enjoy!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/jobs/bored-to-tears-by-a-do-nothing-dream-job.html
I totally feel this guy, I just had 6 months of absolutely nothing to do and now being back to having a ton to do....
if i had to be in an office with nothing to do and expected to sit there for 8 hours that was strictly enforced... that would be torture... glad i work from home... thus there is no boredom as i can always go do something fun or productive for my personal life.
Post by: kpd905 on November 26, 2015, 07:17:17 PM
Today...I dunno. Counter-productive as it is, I sent a letter to his boss because...you have to pay me more or annoy me less. Period. He'll be spitting mad when he finds out and be even more abusive...and I am SO done putting up with it. Beyond a hostile work environment.
So what happened with that letter?
Post by: windawake on November 30, 2015, 09:57:32 AM
Post by: Schaefer Light on February 12, 2016, 10:07:14 AM
"A Spanish civil servant who failed to turn up for work for six years was only discovered when he was considered for an award for loyal service.
Former public employee Joaquín García, who was still collecting his annual €37,000 (€31,000) salary, was on Friday ordered by Cádiz city hall to pay €27,000 in compensation.
He had been sent by the city council to oversee the building of a waste-water treatment plant in the southwestern city but records show that Mr García had not turned up for work since 2004."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html)
Post by: pbkmaine on February 12, 2016, 10:22:24 AM
Post by: Vertical Mode on February 12, 2016, 10:23:22 AM
I nominate the person referenced in the story below for "The Art of Not Working at Work" award.
"A Spanish civil servant who failed to turn up for work for six years was only discovered when he was considered for an award for loyal service.
Former public employee Joaquín García, who was still collecting his annual €37,000 (€31,000) salary, was on Friday ordered by Cádiz city hall to pay €27,000 in compensation.
He had been sent by the city council to oversee the building of a waste-water treatment plant in the southwestern city but records show that Mr García had not turned up for work since 2004."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html)
"we fixed the glitch..."
Post by: Scubanewbie on February 12, 2016, 11:25:16 AM
The "busy busy busy" person could spend hours executing the master plan to acquire just the right donuts for the weekly staff meeting. She'd check with everyone personally and find out what kind of donut they want and what brand they prefer. She'd make a list and check it thrice. It would take her 2-hours, and she'd look busy, busy, busy the entire time. Mr. Net surf, given the same task, would call Dunkin Donuts and ask for 24-assorted donuts. Total time: 2-minutes- leaving him plenty of time to surf the net or play.
I joke you not I went to a PTA meeting this week where someone gave a report out on the committee she was leading. She was in charge of doing a pop-top (from aluminum cans) competition and collecting them from each class, taking them to the scrap yard and planning a doughnut party for the class that collected the most (by grade level). I am not kidding she took 20 minutes to discuss the doughnut logistics, to the point where I just wanted to shake her and say pick some F'ing doughnuts already! They're kids, they'll eat anything. Granted we try to get them cheap/free donations but come on already! Make the decision as chairperson and report back to the group that it's done!
Anyways, I giggled at your illustration because it is exactly my situation this week. Back to net surfing while being considered one of the more productive folks on my team :)
Post by: FrugalShrew on February 12, 2016, 11:39:53 AM
When I was working a cubicle job with nothing to do, I bought some used German textbooks so I could brush up. They were quite ratty, so I ripped the covers off, punched holes in the pages and put them in binders. Anyone looking in my cube saw me hunched over a giant binder.
I LOVE this idea! That's brilliant!
Post by: Mr Dumpster Stache on February 13, 2016, 01:40:25 PM
I nominate the person referenced in the story below for "The Art of Not Working at Work" award.
"A Spanish civil servant who failed to turn up for work for six years was only discovered when he was considered for an award for loyal service.
Former public employee Joaquín García, who was still collecting his annual €37,000 (€31,000) salary, was on Friday ordered by Cádiz city hall to pay €27,000 in compensation.
He had been sent by the city council to oversee the building of a waste-water treatment plant in the southwestern city but records show that Mr García had not turned up for work since 2004."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/12154393/Spanish-council-failed-to-notice-civil-servants-six-year-absence-from-work.html)
Heard this on the radio the other day, I also thought of this thread. :D
Makes you wonder how many "civil servants" could disappear and nobody would notice? Maybe I should make that my platform and run for president...
Post by: NickydŁg on February 15, 2016, 06:38:52 AM
Post by: dsmexpat on February 16, 2016, 08:24:57 AM
Slightly off topic, but there was a story a few years back of a car park attendant at a zoo in England, was there for 20 years every day, taking cash and giving people a ticket for their car, who one day never turned up. After a few days, the zoo called the council and asked them to send them a new attendant. The council checked their records and discovered they had no employees at the zoo. Basically, this guy spent 20 years taking in about Ł2,000 a day for 20 years before disappearing!I wanted it to be true.
http://www.snopes.com/crime/clever/carpark.asp
Post by: gliderpilot567 on February 16, 2016, 11:39:42 AM
I do have a telework agreement, which is awesome. I travel often and bring my work laptop with me... and my work gets done while I am away, so no reason I can't be just as productive working from home. I don't abuse this, but I do find that the occasional day that I stay home with a sick kid, or something like that, I'm far more productive than at work.
Post by: BFGirl on February 17, 2016, 09:12:37 AM
Activity in my job is sporadic. At times, I have to hustle pretty hard -- though in truth, oftentimes this is due to my propensity to procrastinate and thereby create the kind of pressure that forces me to act and get unpleasant tasks (which is to say, pretty much everything I do at work) done. At other times, I can't find enough shit to read on the internet to distract my mind from going crazy out of boredom or anxiety, especially those times when I'd otherwise be staring out the window at a glorious, sunny day, and thinking of the 1,000 other things I'd rather be doing. But fuck, I get paid an insane amount of money to do my job, all things considered, so I try, try, try to be a good employee. But holy shit is it a stretch sometimes.
What do you do?
government attorney
Oh God...me too. (Just reading this thread for the first time) I can leave stuff sitting for days, literally days, and then do one big push and get all the work for a couple of weeks done in a couple of days. I let it pile up in my in basket so that I look busy. Otherwise I get comments about how there is nothing on my desk. Other than that I deal with shit as it comes up and has to be handled immediately and listen to coworkers bitch about stupid stuff. I look at the internet, work on my side business, nap and I got a higher than usual raise this year (basically for putting up with stupid shit that went on last year). If I could just do my job and leave it would be fine, but there has to be a certain amount of "face time". One of my coworkers is determined to get another position added in the next couple of years to take part of the workload off me...sheesh.
Post by: RobFIRE on February 23, 2016, 05:06:03 AM
In summary I see it as "business inefficiency" cost.
I work for a smallish software company in consultancy. I consider myself amongst the most efficient within my team. There are peaks and troughs between project work, but there are peaks and troughs within projects while you wait for the client to decide something, wait for a colleague to do something etc.
So my overall conclusion is that periods of not having enough work is a consequence of the system of an organization:
* multiple components (teams/colleagues/clients) means multiple dependencies, so there are going to be wait periods.
* bureaucracy/roles/permissions means that the organization has a narrow range of approved tasks available to worker, a worker cannot themselves decide to work on something else.
* risk/cost/hierarchy mean bottom-up initiatives are either forbidden, not sought, or in theory permitted for proposal but in practicality just ignored.
* standard working model assumes people are machines who work solidly for 4 hours, lunch break, solid 4 hours, no distractions, no breaks. No allowance for workers being human.
* people's productivity varies enormously, can be 2x or 3x for two people of same experience on same task with same result
* business value is either not understood, not measured, or measured by proxy instead (a day recorded as 8 hours not 7 is "better" by hours worked metric but the business value is the work done not the hours taken (scenario of non-billable hours))
* wrong metrics mean wrong incentives mean wrong behaviour (long hours in office "better" than short hours with more actual work done)
* lack of detailed organizational planning mean that there is not a (sufficient) pool of new valuable work available when worker is free
So in practicality
* always going to be time waiting for others
* not allowed to pick up something else
* not allowed to create new tasks
* standard working day in an office is a farcical concept
* no allowance in system for efficient workers
* businesses often measure the wrong things to understand value/productivity
* lots of incorrect behaviour, political games, perverse incentives.
* lack of planning means day to day inefficiency and chaos
Of course most places aren't at this very extreme, but it's generally towards that.
So my approach is to:
* do work assigned, be honest about doing it to a decent standard. Only send it back if really not in position to do it (has happened twice in 10 years).
* support colleagues when asked, of course defer if have important task in that moment, but only say no if really not feasible (can't recall when that last happened)
* be proactive and create/progress small tasks within scope of what tasks are permitted (though of course if you have too much spare time these dry up)
* try to recognize what is valuable to the organization and focus on that, within what's realistic.
* as much as possible ignore bad behaviour and bad incentives
* accept that peaks will come and will not be fully (or at all) compensated
* request assignment of background tasks (lower priority but valuable or potentially valuable tasks with some clear scope/objective) to pick up as filler work (have requested multiple times and management didn't really get/want to know about the concept, so I gave up)
* offer flexibility, but take it in return (on basis of apologize later rather than ask permission)
* don't chase assignment of low-value tasks, there is no value to find.
After doing that I still have periods of troughs where hours required is less than half the week. Fortunately, I normally either work in client office or from home. At home have no problem filling any spare work time with the standard items: exercise, reading, research, personal admin etc. In office am of course a bit more limited, in the past I have emailed myself a spreadsheet to work on (data to assess in relation to Wikipedia contributions I make). Hasn't really been questioned, if it were I would just say, yes, taking 2 minutes to look at this while I wait for xx process to finish/xx to reply etc. did you want me to pick up something else?
Overall I look at the troughs in work time as a "business inefficiency" cost to the organization: there are efficient workers who could do more, would willingly do more if the right tasks were available, but cannot due to your system. It's your system, I've told you, so I conclude you are happy with it as is.
Post written in work time of course...
Post by: Schaefer Light on February 23, 2016, 06:49:14 AM
* wrong metrics mean wrong incentives mean wrong behaviour (long hours in office "better" than short hours with more actual work done)Good post. I think you hit the nail on the head with the two bullets above.
So in practicality
* businesses often measure the wrong things to understand value/productivity
Post by: markbike528CBX on February 23, 2016, 07:18:53 AM
better than a screensaver spreadsheet is an actual FIRE calculation spreadsheet. You are almost guaranteed to be looking thoughtful and engaged when it is up, as opposed to actual work.
Post by: Vertical Mode on February 23, 2016, 08:36:56 AM
OK, read through this post over the last few days, some very interesting thoughts. Firstly wanted to post to again say, me too, you're not alone!
In summary I see it as "business inefficiency" cost.
I work for a smallish software company in consultancy. I consider myself amongst the most efficient within my team. There are peaks and troughs between project work, but there are peaks and troughs within projects while you wait for the client to decide something, wait for a colleague to do something etc.
So my overall conclusion is that periods of not having enough work is a consequence of the system of an organization:
* multiple components (teams/colleagues/clients) means multiple dependencies, so there are going to be wait periods.
* bureaucracy/roles/permissions means that the organization has a narrow range of approved tasks available to worker, a worker cannot themselves decide to work on something else.
* risk/cost/hierarchy mean bottom-up initiatives are either forbidden, not sought, or in theory permitted for proposal but in practicality just ignored.
* standard working model assumes people are machines who work solidly for 4 hours, lunch break, solid 4 hours, no distractions, no breaks. No allowance for workers being human.
* people's productivity varies enormously, can be 2x or 3x for two people of same experience on same task with same result
* business value is either not understood, not measured, or measured by proxy instead (a day recorded as 8 hours not 7 is "better" by hours worked metric but the business value is the work done not the hours taken (scenario of non-billable hours))
* wrong metrics mean wrong incentives mean wrong behaviour (long hours in office "better" than short hours with more actual work done)
* lack of detailed organizational planning mean that there is not a (sufficient) pool of new valuable work available when worker is free
So in practicality
* always going to be time waiting for others
* not allowed to pick up something else
* not allowed to create new tasks
* standard working day in an office is a farcical concept
* no allowance in system for efficient workers
* businesses often measure the wrong things to understand value/productivity
* lots of incorrect behaviour, political games, perverse incentives.
* lack of planning means day to day inefficiency and chaos
Of course most places aren't at this very extreme, but it's generally towards that.
So my approach is to:
* do work assigned, be honest about doing it to a decent standard. Only send it back if really not in position to do it (has happened twice in 10 years).
* support colleagues when asked, of course defer if have important task in that moment, but only say no if really not feasible (can't recall when that last happened)
* be proactive and create/progress small tasks within scope of what tasks are permitted (though of course if you have too much spare time these dry up)
* try to recognize what is valuable to the organization and focus on that, within what's realistic.
* as much as possible ignore bad behaviour and bad incentives
* accept that peaks will come and will not be fully (or at all) compensated
* request assignment of background tasks (lower priority but valuable or potentially valuable tasks with some clear scope/objective) to pick up as filler work (have requested multiple times and management didn't really get/want to know about the concept, so I gave up)
* offer flexibility, but take it in return (on basis of apologize later rather than ask permission)
* don't chase assignment of low-value tasks, there is no value to find.
After doing that I still have periods of troughs where hours required is less than half the week. Fortunately, I normally either work in client office or from home. At home have no problem filling any spare work time with the standard items: exercise, reading, research, personal admin etc. In office am of course a bit more limited, in the past I have emailed myself a spreadsheet to work on (data to assess in relation to Wikipedia contributions I make). Hasn't really been questioned, if it were I would just say, yes, taking 2 minutes to look at this while I wait for xx process to finish/xx to reply etc. did you want me to pick up something else?
Overall I look at the troughs in work time as a "business inefficiency" cost to the organization: there are efficient workers who could do more, would willingly do more if the right tasks were available, but cannot due to your system. It's your system, I've told you, so I conclude you are happy with it as is.
Post written in work time of course...
Great post. +1.
We have some of that "business inefficiency" going on right now, hence my lurking here ;-)
Post by: golden1 on February 23, 2016, 08:42:39 AM
I have a tough time with being proactive sometimes because you have to find a way to do it that doesn't intrude on other people's jobs and egos. Sometimes when I try, people tend to get annoyed that I am seeing their existing system that they created as "flawed" in some way and will push back.
Post by: mathlete on February 23, 2016, 08:44:33 AM
I just posted this in another thread but I really liked this article: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
A professor of anthropology wrote a piece about bullshit jobs.
Post by: Papa Mustache on March 10, 2016, 11:30:14 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PortableApps.com
You simply need one of the following: a memory stick/thumb drive, memory card and reader, external hard drive, Dropbox account, or just a folder on your computer.
If you go with a folder you can put all the files in that one folder and then "nuke" it in case anyone comes around snooping. Gone will be all your files. They would still be recoverable if someone was that interested so don't store "secrets" in those folders.
At previous jobs where I worried about someone looking over my shoulder so to speak - looking to see what I had bookmarked or the browser history files - using portable browsers (Opera, Firefox, etc) was the ticket. Also on that memory stick was my chat program of choice back then, email program, media player, podcast manager, etc.
I also added a number of utility programs that I relied on to automate my tasks at a previous job. When I went home the memory stick went with me and so did my methods. If I was fired or laid off, the techniques I had developed to make myself more efficient would go with me.
In fact the computer automation did go with me b/c that employer was a bit patronizing to me again when I gave my notice. They made a number of empty promises (again) in order to get me to stay but I left anyhow. Green pastures for certain at the next job.
Add some extensions to your portable browsers like EFF's Badger and HTTPS Everywhere plus AdBlockPlus. TOR might work but it might also attract alot of attention by the IT department. It would hide what websites you were visiting anyhow.
PortableApps creates a pseudo laptop on a memory stick (thumb drive) that carries all your files and software with you. It sets up folders on the memory stick for everything (docs, pictures, music, videos plus you can add any of your own).
With the giant capacity memory sticks available these days you can carry all your favorite PDFs, podcasts, music collection, etc to minimize what you are connecting to or downloading via your office computer.
I once got dinged at a previous job b/c my downloads were noticeably higher than my coworker's. I was an engineer, not IT but I was teaching myself Linux and downloading a different ISO file of ~700MB every few days as I tip-toed through the various distros. MUCH faster to do that at work than at home where I had still had dialup. ;)
I blamed the data consumption on podcasts, streaming music (Radio Paradise), PDF catalog downloads directly related to my job, etc.
I had automated much of my job and needed to stay awake/interested and I did it in the same ways everyone else has described. Learning new skills, reading websites, etc. Linux helped me get my next job which included a smattering of IT support and coaching of coworkers on IT matters.
I think we (MMM) ought to all combine forces and create one company. I think a company built with MMM participants would be unstoppable. ;)
Post by: AZDude on March 11, 2016, 12:10:56 PM
Guys, another good article just on this topic, enjoy!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/jobs/bored-to-tears-by-a-do-nothing-dream-job.html
I totally feel this guy, I just had 6 months of absolutely nothing to do and now being back to having a ton to do....
Sounds my life about six months ago before I couldn't take it any longer and jumped ship. I actually was so bored I DLed an NES emulator was playing old video games during the day. I also walked around the complex, read books, etc...
It was horrible, but everyone would always look wistfully when I talked about how I had nothing to do at work.
Post by: AZDude on March 11, 2016, 12:19:02 PM
Quote
* offer flexibility, but take it in return (on basis of apologize later rather than ask permission)
And seriously, this. The whole post was great, but this stands out to me. If you want work flexibility, the best thing to do is make it or yourself. If you are known as a guy who works on stuff at night sometimes, no one is going to question when you leave early. Well, unless you work for a sociopath or the local government.
Post by: steveo on March 11, 2016, 03:39:14 PM
One of my managers (seriously there are 3) gave me feedback that I need to be more visible at work and attend the stupid meetings. He said the project is going good but you need to be seen. The big bosses are at these meetings.
The problem is that I don't give a shit. I do want to get a bonus which is typically worth about $10k per year but I'm seriously thinking is it worth it. I wonder if they would sack me if I continued just turning up 2 days a week. If they did I think they would have to pay me out.
I should add that the amount of stupid shit that we do each week is amazing. It's not like I'm completely avoiding all the crap.
Post by: Basenji on March 11, 2016, 07:35:47 PM
When I started my job I was fairly busy, but, as I have always done at work, I started tweaking processes: the email template for the common tasks, the checklists, the binder of master info, the browser bookmarks of efficiency. I got faster with no loss of quality. I noticed insanely wasteful work practices by my co-workers doing the same job. For a while, I tried to offer my ideas to co-workers, but they were not appreciated. In some cases I got hostile responses, even from my boss, who wanted me to give him only my ideas and not to share them directly with the team. So, of course I stopped offering ideas. He never seemed to notice I stopped.
I established myself over several years with clients and internal folks as really good at my job, got great reviews. I was very proactive for a few years, but no one ever asked me HOW I worked or was interested in my efficiencies. The slowest, stupidest, screw-up guy was still there in the same job as I was.
Now years in, I'm cruising. One huge thing is having done the job long enough I know everything, have seen everything. In fact, when something is truly new, it's exciting (for a moment). I do have actual busy days, but often not. When I had downtime in the first few years, I would tell my boss and offer to help out others. He said over and over, no just stick with your program's tasks. So, now I no longer offer. For much of a recent month, I mainly watched "Law and Order" reruns, looked at dog videos, and read library books and the forum. This work situation does not cause me any distress now. It used to and then I found MMM, and realized I could stop working in a few years. Less than 3 to go. Amen.
Post by: markbike528CBX on March 11, 2016, 08:21:36 PM
. ...., looked at dog videos, .........
at least they were not cat videos ( a Cat person saying that)... :-)
Post by: Basenji on March 12, 2016, 05:57:58 AM
It's possible a cat or two snuck in.... ...., looked at dog videos, .........
at least they were not cat videos ( a Cat person saying that)... :-)
Post by: couponvan on March 12, 2016, 08:56:08 AM
This thread is great. Just read the whole thing.
When I started my job I was fairly busy, but, as I have always done at work, I started tweaking processes: the email template for the common tasks, the checklists, the binder of master info, the browser bookmarks of efficiency. I got faster with no loss of quality. I noticed insanely wasteful work practices by my co-workers doing the same job. For a while, I tried to offer my ideas to co-workers, but they were not appreciated. In some cases I got hostile responses, even from my boss, who wanted me to give him only my ideas and not to share them directly with the team. So, of course I stopped offering ideas. He never seemed to notice I stopped.
I established myself over several years with clients and internal folks as really good at my job, got great reviews. I was very proactive for a few years, but no one ever asked me HOW I worked or was interested in my efficiencies. The slowest, stupidest, screw-up guy was still there in the same job as I was.
Now years in, I'm cruising. One huge thing is having done the job long enough I know everything, have seen everything. In fact, when something is truly new, it's exciting (for a moment). I do have actual busy days, but often not. When I had downtime in the first few years, I would tell my boss and offer to help out others. He said over and over, no just stick with your program's tasks. So, now I no longer offer. For much of a recent month, I mainly watched "Law and Order" reruns, looked at dog videos, and read library books and the forum. This work situation does not cause me any distress now. It used to and then I found MMM, and realized I could stop working in a few years. Less than 3 to go. Amen.
I totally agree with that comment. I realized that all I received for my efficiency was more work. At first, I thought they would see the inefficiency of the other people, but the powers that be don't. Therefore, I now benchmark product versus the others at my level versus actual hours. This thread has been very helpful with good ideas.
Post by: babysnowbyrd on March 17, 2016, 01:47:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1M0R2KPG2A
Post by: grizz on March 17, 2016, 09:40:22 AM
[/quote]
A professor of anthropology wrote a piece about bullshit jobs.
[/quote]
Haaa. Still, check out Graeber's books on debt and bureacracy--great stuff.
Post by: dsmexpat on March 17, 2016, 10:10:16 AM
I came in late, kept the lights off in my office, closed and locked the door and watched Netflix all day.
Tuesday, pretty much the same.
Yesterday I came in a little after 12. Nobody said anything.
The struggle is real.
Post by: couponvan on March 17, 2016, 10:44:17 AM
Apparently while I felt like I wasn't working very much at all (because system developers have not finished their tasks for me) I've managed to complete 80% of the work product to date. This means the other team members have done way less than even myself. Note - I am part time, and they are full time. So glad I'm not going to be the one at the end of the project holding the bag!!
Post by: Northwestie on March 17, 2016, 10:48:22 AM
When I worked for the feds the best way to avoid work was to do lousy work - then folks would send you less and less work until you were like that guy Wally in the Dilbert comic - just walking around all day talking and drinking coffee.
I know a guy who works at University of Washington - been there for 25 years doing tech support. I guess it's not overly demanding so he will occasionally find an empty office, turn out the lights, put on eye shades and take a 1.5 hr nap!! Holy cow!
Post by: littleqt on March 17, 2016, 03:39:44 PM
My solution has been to work on an online web development course during the slow hours, but I'm afraid that my coworkers or boss will see. I do work for a tech company, but am not in a programming profession, so it could come off like I'm trying to switch careers. Because of this fear, I don't spend all the hours at work in the most productive way. Most of my coworkers watch videos or read reddit. I would like to switch into a development role where I do more.
Post by: ender on March 19, 2016, 01:35:56 PM
Let me just say, I am jealous of all those who are involved with high-5 figure or low-6 figure jobs with excellent job security, with many hours of free time per day (some with state pensions!). Congrats, guys and gals, you've made it! Now, where can I find one of these jobs? :P
I think that people sort of idealize this (doing nothing at work) and if given the opportunity to trade a job like that for a similarly compensated job with engaging/interesting work, most who have sat in a job like that would quickly jump.
The trick is to find an engaging job that doesn't overwork/overstress you out. That is... nontrivial.
Post by: steveo on March 19, 2016, 04:56:53 PM
The trick is to find an engaging job that doesn't overwork/overstress you out. That is... nontrivial.
Yep. This is my issue. The job itself is okay but it easily tips into the overwork/overstress category. I can spend time doing nothing now but all of a sudden it's chaos. I've learnt to be very careful in pushing back on too much work.
Post by: mak1277 on March 22, 2016, 07:21:46 AM
Let me just say, I am jealous of all those who are involved with high-5 figure or low-6 figure jobs with excellent job security, with many hours of free time per day (some with state pensions!). Congrats, guys and gals, you've made it! Now, where can I find one of these jobs? :P
I think that people sort of idealize this (doing nothing at work) and if given the opportunity to trade a job like that for a similarly compensated job with engaging/interesting work, most who have sat in a job like that would quickly jump.
The trick is to find an engaging job that doesn't overwork/overstress you out. That is... nontrivial.
I'll take boredom (and free time/flexibility) over stress and long hours any day. I don't know anyone in my field that has an engaging job that doesn't involve stress/overtime.
Post by: notquitefrugal on March 23, 2016, 07:45:10 PM
http://www.npr.org/2016/03/14/470416797/even-astronauts-get-the-blues-or-why-boredom-drives-us-nuts
Post by: Digital Dogma on March 24, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
Post by: Kitsune on March 24, 2016, 09:08:45 AM
Everyone at work was notified that their expected minor 2-4% raises have been suspended indefinitely until financial performance improves. I suspect there are a lot of people practicing the art of not working at work today, and possibly a few calling out with a sudden bout of "fuck this".
At the last company I worked at, where I was a team manager, the highest possible raise someone could get (and they had to be 100% superstars EVERYWHERE and you'd have a meeting with the VP before being able to give it to them, so you could justify such an expense) - the HIGHEST rate, right - was 4%.
I have no idea how more people weren't in The FuckIts.
Post by: Digital Dogma on March 24, 2016, 10:29:52 AM
Post by: MrGreen on March 24, 2016, 10:39:16 AM
Everyone at work was notified that their expected minor 2-4% raises have been suspended indefinitely until financial performance improves. I suspect there are a lot of people practicing the art of not working at work today, and possibly a few calling out with a sudden bout of "fuck this".My favorite is "rectal glaucoma." Can't see my ass coming to work today.
Post by: thek1d on March 24, 2016, 10:48:26 AM
My department is having a shakeup because the faculty member who runs the place has been headhunted by another university. The other two are the chair who thinks he's already retired and doesn't like to come in and another guy who is on a sabbatical. I wanted to call in sick Monday morning but as I sat in bed deciding what I'd say I realized that there is actually nobody for me to call in sick to. I'm now completely unaccountable.
I came in late, kept the lights off in my office, closed and locked the door and watched Netflix all day.
Tuesday, pretty much the same.
Yesterday I came in a little after 12. Nobody said anything.
The struggle is real.
You are my hero.
Post by: Vertical Mode on March 24, 2016, 03:15:12 PM
Everyone at work was notified that their expected minor 2-4% raises have been suspended indefinitely until financial performance improves. I suspect there are a lot of people practicing the art of not working at work today, and possibly a few calling out with a sudden bout of "fuck this".My favorite is "rectal glaucoma." Can't see my ass coming to work today.
LOL. You just made my day!
Post by: AZDude on March 24, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
My department is having a shakeup because the faculty member who runs the place has been headhunted by another university. The other two are the chair who thinks he's already retired and doesn't like to come in and another guy who is on a sabbatical. I wanted to call in sick Monday morning but as I sat in bed deciding what I'd say I realized that there is actually nobody for me to call in sick to. I'm now completely unaccountable.
I came in late, kept the lights off in my office, closed and locked the door and watched Netflix all day.
Tuesday, pretty much the same.
Yesterday I came in a little after 12. Nobody said anything.
The struggle is real.
Congrats.
I worked for a place where there were a bunch of layoffs. I survived somehow, despite my job not being meaningful in any way, and suddenly realized one day that my former boss had been let go and no one had replaced him. Eventually found out that because we were such a small, niche group, we had been assigned to some high level manager we never saw. He had no interest in supervising us, and we had no interest in telling him what was going on.
Post by: Yaeger on March 24, 2016, 04:43:58 PM
I worked for a place where there were a bunch of layoffs. I survived somehow, despite my job not being meaningful in any way, and suddenly realized one day that my former boss had been let go and no one had replaced him. Eventually found out that because we were such a small, niche group, we had been assigned to some high level manager we never saw. He had no interest in supervising us, and we had no interest in telling him what was going on.
I don't know about anyone else, but to me that sounds like the perfect job.
Post by: Warlord1986 on March 24, 2016, 08:31:19 PM
My department is having a shakeup because the faculty member who runs the place has been headhunted by another university. The other two are the chair who thinks he's already retired and doesn't like to come in and another guy who is on a sabbatical. I wanted to call in sick Monday morning but as I sat in bed deciding what I'd say I realized that there is actually nobody for me to call in sick to. I'm now completely unaccountable.
I came in late, kept the lights off in my office, closed and locked the door and watched Netflix all day.
Tuesday, pretty much the same.
Yesterday I came in a little after 12. Nobody said anything.
The struggle is real.
Teach me your ways, O Master.
I work in county government. It is the most boring job imaginable. I am forced to sit at a desk all day. I got a $400,000 grant, and was lined up to get another one (seriously, I had SCDOT on the phone telling me they'd like to fund the project, and I had a university pledging $5,000 in cash, and $10,000 in student labor) and that project got canned by my boss, so I can't even work on interesting stuff. So now I sit in an office and listen to death metal and Turkish language lessons on my phone. Sometimes I apply for other jobs.
Post by: albireo13 on March 25, 2016, 07:08:47 AM
I m always busy at work so, shear boredom doesn't strike. However, 90% of what I do is busy work, whose main goal is CYA documentation. Very little work
has any bearing on product quality, product improvement, or customer satisfaction.
I am close to pulling my hair out at work over the tidal wave of useless meetings and corporate process deadwood.
Every minor decision takes weeks and involves consensus among all sorts of people who don't even know what the issue even is.
It's a brave new world. Censensus-driven decision making is a way of avoiding accountability.
I crave actual work that makes a difference.
The frustrating part is that it pays well and I just got a raise and bonus. The "golden handcuffs" feel tighter and tighter each year.
Rob
Post by: solon on March 25, 2016, 09:41:18 AM
I work for a large company (makes electric toothbrushes and high tech stuff) as an engineer and have witnessed the gradual proliferation of useless work.
I m always busy at work so, shear boredom doesn't strike. However, 90% of what I do is busy work, whose main goal is CYA documentation. Very little work
has any bearing on product quality, product improvement, or customer satisfaction.
I am close to pulling my hair out at work over the tidal wave of useless meetings and corporate process deadwood.
Every minor decision takes weeks and involves consensus among all sorts of people who don't even know what the issue even is.
It's a brave new world. Censensus-driven decision making is a way of avoiding accountability.
I crave actual work that makes a difference.
The frustrating part is that it pays well and I just got a raise and bonus. The "golden handcuffs" feel tighter and tighter each year.
Rob
The real risk here is not that you might be stuck in a high-paying job for a long time, it's that you might not.
When a project or division gets so bloated that they are putting out very little real work, the higher-ups will eventually notice. "Now, what's this group doing again? We sure are paying them a lot of money..."
Post by: rantk81 on March 25, 2016, 11:38:47 AM
I recently received an annual bonus (!) and a decent annual raise, despite not feeling like I produce much of value at all.
However, I'm paid in an extremely high percentile of workers with a similar background. I imagine finding another job with such a low level of stress and a similar amount of pay, would be darn near impossible. I just hope I'm not letting my skills get rusty, in case the layoffs come before I finally reach my FIRE goals.
Post by: AZDude on March 25, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
I feel like I am in a "golden handcuffs" situation of a do-nothing team at work too.
I recently received an annual bonus (!) and a decent annual raise, despite not feeling like I produce much of value at all.
However, I'm paid in an extremely high percentile of workers with a similar background. I imagine finding another job with such a low level of stress and a similar amount of pay, would be darn near impossible. I just hope I'm not letting my skills get rusty, in case the layoffs come before I finally reach my FIRE goals.
Maybe look at getting some side income while at work. I used to do freelance writing at my old jobs. I always thought about doing some freelance programming while at work, but never had the guts to actually do it(since... you know, that would be an instant fireable offense and maybe cause legal trouble for any clients).
Post by: Nickels Dimes Quarters on March 28, 2016, 05:41:21 AM
I do work with people who have learned how to look busy when they are not. Frankly, I would be bored and my days would drag if I didn't keep working at work.
NDQ
Post by: Psyche on March 28, 2016, 10:45:47 AM
http://www.npr.org/2016/03/28/468138647/before-you-judge-lazy-workers-consider-they-might-serve-a-purpose?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160328 (http://www.npr.org/2016/03/28/468138647/before-you-judge-lazy-workers-consider-they-might-serve-a-purpose?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160328).
Post by: FIstateofmind on June 08, 2016, 09:59:26 PM
Post by: gggggg on June 09, 2016, 05:26:16 AM
Post by: FIRE me on June 09, 2016, 08:27:10 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4km3yc/finally_fired_after_6_years/
Post by: Tris Prior on June 09, 2016, 08:39:29 AM
I'd be less concerned if I didn't have to fill out a timesheet stating what projects I'm working on daily.
Anyway: THIS IS DRIVING ME INSANE. I like to be busy. I like to be productive. Every other job I've had, I've been busy-to-swamped, constantly.
And, my salary more than doubled when I took this job. I think that's what really kills me - I'm being paid more money than I've ever seen in my life to warm a seat. I find this mystifying. This is also my first huge-company experience so maybe this is just A Thing that happens at big corporations and not at the small startups that I'm used to.
Post by: Gondolin on June 09, 2016, 09:20:25 AM
Quote
This is also my first huge-company experience so maybe this is just A Thing that happens at big corporations and not at the small startups that I'm used to.
This. Big corporations can bring immense resources to bear and embark on globe spanning endeavors. There is also colossal waste was the edges and interstitials. Amounts of money that would make or break a startup are wasted every year on bureaucracy, failed innovation, staffing inefficiencies, legal wrangles, re-orgs, etc.
When you work for an org that likely has a legal team, a communications team, a marketing team, an internal audit team, and a regulatory compliance team ALL of which employ more people than the startup where you previously worked, paying you for a few months until budgets/contracts get approved is just small potatoes.
Post by: Tris Prior on June 09, 2016, 09:46:51 AM
There is also colossal waste was the edges and interstitials. Amounts of money that would make or break a startup are wasted every year on bureaucracy, failed innovation, staffing inefficiencies, legal wrangles, re-orgs, etc.
Oh god yes. I see SO much of this already and I've only been here a few months. It's kind of horrifying, actually, both as an aspiring Mustachian and as a veteran of many tiny, struggling companies where you did NOT waste money on shit that's not important. (I did a double take the first time I saw a cleaning crew in the ladies' room here. At Last Company we took turns scrubbing the toilets. Not kidding.)
I bumped into someone from Last Company (which went out of business) the other day, who is also at a large corporation now. We were talking about how at Last Company, if you saw a thing that needed done, you jumped in and did it. Assuming there wasn't a financial/time reason that we couldn't. Now, there are Channels and Approvals and "no, department X takes care of that, you can't just jump in" and "sorry, you cannot work on that because Grand High Lama XYZ has not issued the ABC approval yet..." ARGH.
It does help a little to know that this is normal. And, I guess, something I'll have to get used to, while sitting here collecting a good paycheck for just trying to improve my technical skills...
Post by: Gondolin on June 09, 2016, 10:08:38 AM
I've been sleep walking through my current job on short term assignments for almost a year now. I'm strongly considering jumping ship to a smaller company, maybe one with just 5000-10000 employees instead of 65,000.
Post by: Schaefer Light on June 09, 2016, 10:20:14 AM
Guy gets fired after doing no work for six years. In his own estimation, he has worked 50 hours in the past six years.Now that was funny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4km3yc/finally_fired_after_6_years/
Post by: MrGreen on June 09, 2016, 10:34:05 AM
Guy gets fired after doing no work for six years. In his own estimation, he has worked 50 hours in the past six years.This is rather amazing. Props to that guy for being able to last 6 years in an environment like that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4km3yc/finally_fired_after_6_years/
Post by: mak1277 on June 09, 2016, 11:00:01 AM
Oh god yes. I see SO much of this already and I've only been here a few months. It's kind of horrifying, actually, both as an aspiring Mustachian and as a veteran of many tiny, struggling companies where you did NOT waste money on shit that's not important. (I did a double take the first time I saw a cleaning crew in the ladies' room here. At Last Company we took turns scrubbing the toilets. Not kidding.)
I would argue that it's much more cost effective to pay a third party minimum wage to clean toilets than it is to have your (presumably higher paid) employees waste their time with a job like that when they could instead be making the company money.
Post by: Monkey Uncle on June 10, 2016, 04:12:01 AM
Oh god yes. I see SO much of this already and I've only been here a few months. It's kind of horrifying, actually, both as an aspiring Mustachian and as a veteran of many tiny, struggling companies where you did NOT waste money on shit that's not important. (I did a double take the first time I saw a cleaning crew in the ladies' room here. At Last Company we took turns scrubbing the toilets. Not kidding.)
I would argue that it's much more cost effective to pay a third party minimum wage to clean toilets than it is to have your (presumably higher paid) employees waste their time with a job like that when they could instead be making the company money.
I'm guessing they did it on unpaid overtime long after they had their 40 in for the week.
Post by: Prairie Gal on June 10, 2016, 06:37:55 AM
Oh god yes. I see SO much of this already and I've only been here a few months. It's kind of horrifying, actually, both as an aspiring Mustachian and as a veteran of many tiny, struggling companies where you did NOT waste money on shit that's not important. (I did a double take the first time I saw a cleaning crew in the ladies' room here. At Last Company we took turns scrubbing the toilets. Not kidding.)
I would argue that it's much more cost effective to pay a third party minimum wage to clean toilets than it is to have your (presumably higher paid) employees waste their time with a job like that when they could instead be making the company money.
I'm guessing they did it on unpaid overtime long after they had their 40 in for the week.
Considering how much time some people seem to waste at their job doing nothing, it is more cost effective to put them to work scrubbing toilets than to outsource it. Now, convincing them that it is part of their job description might be another story.
Post by: redcedar on June 10, 2016, 07:12:00 AM
Post by: Vertical Mode on June 10, 2016, 10:19:19 AM
Post by: dividendman on June 10, 2016, 11:52:52 AM
Post by: FIRE me on June 11, 2016, 08:08:24 AM
Guy gets fired after doing no work for six years. In his own estimation, he has worked 50 hours in the past six years.This is rather amazing. Props to that guy for being able to last 6 years in an environment like that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4km3yc/finally_fired_after_6_years/
I think it is interesting that opinions are well split on if what he did was wrong or not.
Many think it was OK to do nothing for 6 years since he did everything the company told him to do, and legally speaking, it is the company's responsibility to keep employees busy.
Others say that ethically speaking, he was stealing his pay.
Like you, I found the story amusing. I also see his conduct as a distinct lack of a work ethic.
Post by: mozar on June 11, 2016, 06:28:34 PM
Quote
But how much time is spent training managers how to work with efficient and even hyper efficient employees?
I was thinking about this yesterday after I ran out of busy work to do. No where I have ever worked in my 8 year career did I have a boss who had ideas of work to give me. At least at my current job I can create my own work. I couldn't create work in the past because I would come in after work streams have been established. I understand it's hard to think of work for your employees and do your own work but that's your JOB. It's why you get paid more. SMH
Post by: MVal on June 11, 2016, 11:13:21 PM
Post by: ponyboy on August 31, 2017, 09:52:58 AM
I used to work 2nd shift at a factory. I could get all of my work done in less than 2 hours...which was nice since when I came in the boss was going home. The even better part is when I worked Sundays and no one was in the plant. Id do all my work then leave for the day...come back an hour before I had to punch the clock then swipe my card at the end of my shift. Money wasnt that great but the work/hours were awesome! I used to regularly sleep under my desk during the day as well.
My current job in IT...I maybe work 8 hours a week. The rest of the time is spent going to the gym, browsing the web or watching tv shows/movies. I just finished up with game of thrones...tried watching that newest mummy movie but gave up...was too boring. Some of the easiest money ive ever made.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on August 31, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
Then I talk to people I know who make more than I do and readily admit that half their day is spent reading the news or other time wasting activities - generally working for the government in some form or fashion. I find it hard to not be busy. Even at home there's always something else to clean up or some other project to work on. Having actual free time is almost more stressful as I feel like I'm wasting my time by not working on the six other things that are still on my to-do list.
Post by: BFGirl on August 31, 2017, 11:52:21 AM
Activity in my job is sporadic. At times, I have to hustle pretty hard -- though in truth, oftentimes this is due to my propensity to procrastinate and thereby create the kind of pressure that forces me to act and get unpleasant tasks (which is to say, pretty much everything I do at work) done. At other times, I can't find enough shit to read on the internet to distract my mind from going crazy out of boredom or anxiety, especially those times when I'd otherwise be staring out the window at a glorious, sunny day, and thinking of the 1,000 other things I'd rather be doing. But fuck, I get paid an insane amount of money to do my job, all things considered, so I try, try, try to be a good employee. But holy shit is it a stretch sometimes.
What do you do?
government attorney
Oh God...me too. (Just reading this thread for the first time) I can leave stuff sitting for days, literally days, and then do one big push and get all the work for a couple of weeks done in a couple of days. I let it pile up in my in basket so that I look busy. Otherwise I get comments about how there is nothing on my desk. Other than that I deal with shit as it comes up and has to be handled immediately and listen to coworkers bitch about stupid stuff. I look at the internet, work on my side business, nap and I got a higher than usual raise this year (basically for putting up with stupid shit that went on last year). If I could just do my job and leave it would be fine, but there has to be a certain amount of "face time". One of my coworkers is determined to get another position added in the next couple of years to take part of the workload off me...sheesh.
Unfortunately, partially due to a coworker who is a master of the art of not working at work, my workload has increased. Also, the case loads and problems have increased which means I actually have to "work" a lot more. But we are adding the new position in a couple of months and hopefully I can pass off some of my workload there and not be swamped all the time.
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on August 31, 2017, 12:29:22 PM
All this will end in a month when I embark on a career path that gets me out of the cubicle.
Do you people who work from home face similar issues? Or is time spent in front of the computer tend to be more productive and when you need a break you actually go do something else without calling it "work"?
Post by: GenXbiker on August 31, 2017, 12:38:13 PM
My current job in IT...I maybe work 8 hours a week. The rest of the time is spent going to the gym, browsing the web or watching tv shows/movies.
One of my past IT co-workers probably didn't put in more than 10 minutes of actual work per day. The rest of us made up the slack. He's no longer employed there.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on August 31, 2017, 02:13:27 PM
One of my past IT co-workers probably didn't put in more than 10 minutes of actual work per day. The rest of us made up the slack. He's no longer employed there.
Just because your coworker made someone else pick up his slack doesn't mean we all are. I'm the only person on my team. Anything I don't do doesn't get done. Everything gets done. There just isn't much to do. Anything that involves another person/team gets done immediately.
Post by: GenXbiker on August 31, 2017, 02:48:28 PM
One of my past IT co-workers probably didn't put in more than 10 minutes of actual work per day. The rest of us made up the slack. He's no longer employed there.
Just because your coworker made someone else pick up his slack doesn't mean we all are.
Who said anything you? I gave some personal experience regarding someone that didn't do much work and that the rest of us had to pick up the slack. Eventually the fat was trimmed. Those are simply the facts.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on August 31, 2017, 02:58:43 PM
Who said anything you? I gave some personal experience regarding someone that didn't do much work and that the rest of us had to pick up the slack. Eventually the fat was trimmed. Those are simply the facts.
Not me/us, just the way it was quoted and then complained about, can make it seem like it was directed TO someone for doing something that's making others pick up their slack. I was just pointing out that not all slack has to be picked up.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on August 31, 2017, 03:24:22 PM
I spend a ton of time at work planning what I will do when I'm not working, how to work less, and how to pass the time at work.
All this will end in a month when I embark on a career path that gets me out of the cubicle.
Do you people who work from home face similar issues? Or is time spent in front of the computer tend to be more productive and when you need a break you actually go do something else without calling it "work"?
I hear you. Trying to pass off as working is much harder than actually working. Unfortunately I do not have enough to fill 40 hours a week, so I post a lot of on the web-er-net.
I did work from home in the past, and downtime could be a lot more productive. Do some light yard work, cut up some veggies, whatever...I could also look through a coding book and not look like I am slacking off.
Post by: o2bfree on August 31, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
Post by: Valhalla on August 31, 2017, 04:34:01 PM
I spend a ton of time at work planning what I will do when I'm not working, how to work less, and how to pass the time at work.When working from home I spend a lot of time "researching" information, some for work, some for personal, some for fun. I'm in research mode 95% of the time, even when just noodling about stuff while camping, at the gym, beach, etc. My mind never stops.
All this will end in a month when I embark on a career path that gets me out of the cubicle.
Do you people who work from home face similar issues? Or is time spent in front of the computer tend to be more productive and when you need a break you actually go do something else without calling it "work"?
Post by: eostache on November 24, 2018, 09:20:22 AM
My job has had a more steady stream of work lately, but I have had times in the past year when it was pretty slow and I've had to create an air of busyness when I didn't really have anything to do all day. I work at a software company, just pushing data sets around. It's pretty easy work and I'm left on my own and no one ever questions how much I do in a day. I often work pretty slow, which I see as guarding against burnout.
My supervisor, a nice woman in her 60s, does not like to micromanage. She's busy with her own things and many phone meetings. I always encourage her to send me more of the new projects but she seldom does.
Our director, a nice guy in his 60s, he's probably a workaholic but he doesn't seem to encourage the rest of us to do that. Sometimes he will tell everyone they can leave early but clock hours for the whole day. We have a lot of new work ramping up and he told us to take our breaks during the day and leave at 5pm. If the work piles up it gives him justification to be able to tell HR that they need to hire more people.
Post by: LPG on November 24, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Like some of the other posters, I originally tried taking on extra responsibility and using my extra time to produce extra value for the company. Then I learned that the company has a policy that nobody ever gets a promotion more frequently than once every three years, so me exceeding expectations would never yield economic benefit to me. I've gotten far choosier about how I exceed expectations now.
I still work above expectations from time to time, but now it's only when I know I can get something I want out of it. Like if I have a project idea I really want to pursue I'll aggressively pitch it to bring in funding for it. Or I'll work hard to create projects with teams of people I like. Or try to create projects that give me a good reason to build skills I want, or build a professional reputation that I want. I still find meaning and purpose in engaging in the work, but I have to assume that doing what is in the company's best interests is not in my best interests. Which I find very frustrating, and which creates some odd incentive structures.
As for downtime, I often use it to learn new skills. I've taken courses on machine learning, project management, people management, building workplace culture, search engine optimization, creating electronic music, Vietnamese language, industry specific software that the company doesn't use, creative writing, proposal writing, and so on. There's any number of interesting things that can be learned for free on the internet. No, it's not as valuable as a university degree on those subjects, but it's more valuable and more satisfying than staring at a blank monitor. The frustrating part is that, just like in the last paragraph, I know that this company will never compensate me for these new skills I've learned and that I'll have to find a different job elsewhere for it to be recognized and valued. So be it, that seems to be the way the world is.
Post by: Apple_Tango on November 24, 2018, 10:59:32 PM
Like I said, that was a short term contract so I just looked at it like a vacation because my next contract was super busy all the time. But I learned that the hardest part of having no work is being next to coworkers who are working really hard. It just makes you feel like a fool.
Post by: Roadrunner53 on November 26, 2018, 07:07:58 AM
Post by: Schaefer Light on November 26, 2018, 07:49:13 AM
So, the following week I had to 'ration' my weekly work to 2 1/2 hours a day. How do you stretch out 2 1/2 hours worth of work over 8 long hours?....A little goof off time is good but 27.5 hours a week is a bit much!My biggest gripe is that you can't just go home when your work is done. You're on "company time" (whatever the hell that is). There's an interesting chapter on this concept in David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs. For most of human history, the concept of buying someone's time was unheard of. People were paid for a specific product or people themselves were bought (i.e. slavery) , but they weren't paid to sit in a chair for 8 hours a day.
I'm glad this thread has popped up again. After reading the book, I was wondering how many people who have posted on this thread over the years are still in the same boring jobs. I am. I'd like to get a different job, but I haven't had any luck finding one that pays as well.
Post by: Roadrunner53 on November 26, 2018, 11:27:03 AM
I had this office temp job years ago. It was a 40 hour job. It basically entailed that I take numbers from one data base and put them into another data base. At first I thought it was kind of complicated but in a short time it was beyond easy. This one week I had finished all my work by Tuesday. I went to the guy who I was supposed to report to and told him I had finished my work and did he have some other work for me. He said no! OMG, I said to myself. I have no work and three more days of the week left! I needed a paycheck so I screwed around doing nothing! I was so bored I thought I would die! I would go to the bathroom and just about fall asleep in the stall. There was no where to go and I couldn't just wander off. So, the following week I had to 'ration' my weekly work to 2 1/2 hours a day. How do you stretch out 2 1/2 hours worth of work over 8 long hours? It was horrendous torture. I would sometimes sneak onto the internet but was afraid I would get in trouble so didn't do it too much but it was so tempting! I even contacted my agency to find me another job but they never did. In the end I worked there about 5 months. The department manager came to me and told me my end date. He also told me what a great job I did and that he would gladly give me good references if I wanted to use his name! OMG, I was pretty happy about that but on my last day I just about ran out of there screaming! It really sucked that I needed a paycheck so bad that I had to endure such boring, mindless situation. I would rather be busy with mentally stimulating work. A little goof off time is good but 27.5 hours a week is a bit much!
On top of this situation, I had no friends at this place of employment. I was a temp and treated like someone with leprosy. No one tried to befriend me and some people did feel sorry for me eating alone at lunchtime and asked me to join them. I never really clicked with anyone. They were an odd bunch because everyone was on pins and needles due to a previous devastating lay off. They were all waiting for the ax to come down and lose their jobs. So they all seemed to hunker down in their cubes and were like rabbits in holes hoping not to catch the eye of anyone with pink slips in their hands! You could smell the stench of doom in the place.
Post by: BlueMR2 on November 26, 2018, 04:40:10 PM
I do have a company cellphone, but it only gets called for the most dire emergencies and I don't check e-mail on it (I'd drive myself crazy - Example, I got 460 legit e-mails just over the Thanksgiving holiday), so my off hours really are off hours most times.
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on November 26, 2018, 04:58:32 PM
I can't even imagine not working at work. The idea of having free time is totally alien coming from an IT background. I guess it explains why management wonders why we don't spend 10+ hours a day at the office. Works fine for them because they have slack time here and there to recover whereas we go from 0 to frantic as soon as entering the door and it doesn't end until we're out the door! Most days I'm pretty well cooked after 6 hours, and really have to grind out the last 3. I'm currently actively working on multiple top priority high level projects and as of earlier today I also had 125 break/fix aka "helpdesk" style tickets assigned to me, plus the boatloads of random e-mails I have to deal with.
That's not IT so much as the company. I'm in IT, work for a smaller company, and have a lot of downtime. And yes I spend as much of my downtime as I can in learning, planning, experimenting, and improving. My philosophy is 'what can I do to make my life easier, or remove/mitigate my biggest potential nightmare?', which has mostly been high availability systems, very thorough backups, and finally getting the company to agree to an aging hardware rotation schedule (replacing things before they break due to age, a crazy concept to them at first). I've done as much as I can with the budget I have, and now that I'm on the other side of spending years to get where I want to be, the result is things rarely break, and when they do I can get them back up in minutes (so far, knock on wood).
My last company was nonstop, too much work for the size of the team, way too many nights woken up. So I left, and found this gig. The job before that one, also lots of downtime, so it really does depend on the company, how they view IT, and how they staff for it. Sometimes busy is nice, but if you don't like it, I highly recommend looking around for a more chill position.
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 27, 2018, 03:10:24 AM
Post by: dante on December 31, 2018, 10:11:43 AM
Well, be careful what you wish for. My company was purchased by a mega corp in April 2018. Starting in June, I didn't have a lot of work and so used vacation to take off Fridays and "worked from home" on Thursdays. (I had assumed it was just a short term blip as the folks at the mega corp finished a large project.) When things didn't pick up in July, I started looking for another job. I got word that I was being laid off in early September. However, they wanted me to stick around until the end of November. Three months where I was literally working less than 8 hours a week. The only saving grace was nobody cared that I was "working from home" the vast majority of the time.
I started a new job in December but the ramp up has been a little slow. Hopefully, I'll be a more normal level of busy starting in mid-January.
This whole episode has me questioning how I'll spend my time once I reach FIRE. I wasn't exactly overly productive during this time. Although, I am pretty rested and refreshed which is good. (Plus, I knew I couldn't really start new commitments since I'm not FIRE, yet.)
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on April 22, 2021, 05:03:26 AM
How have you managed to not work at work while working (or not working?) from home?
Post by: Zamboni on April 22, 2021, 07:02:37 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56822571 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56822571)
I was sort of perversely admiring this guy right up to the part where it said he had threatened a supervisor, so she never reported him. Apparently because she was scared of him? That right there is criminal.
I actually used to work with a guy who did a similar thing. He was a facilities supervisor, and I could never ever find him when we needed him. But then I'd see him randomly in the hallway another day, so I just figured he was somewhere else in the buildings working when I couldn't find him. A few years later there was a financial squeeze, and the few guys who reported to him starting worrying they might be laid off instead of him. At this point, mostly out of fear for their own jobs, they banded together and reported him. According to their report, he was only at our employer about 1 hour per week for many years because he owned a business at another location and worked full time at that instead. He had threatened his guys, they said, and they were afraid to report it. I think they also didn't report him because they liked that he wasn't around. There, they could also not be at work much of the time and no one was telling them things to do. It seemed like they had developed a system where one guy in the group was around each day on a rotating basis to cover for the others just in case something major happened like a pipe bursting, but meanwhile our buildings were starting to show signs of neglect. They were supposed to be doing things like routine maintenance & inspections, AC preventative maintenance, painting, upgrading the old plumbing, keeping the roofs in good shape, etc. and none of that was happening. The AC would go out and be out for a couple weeks. Roofs started to leak here and there. Paint was starting to peel all over the place except for in the two bosses' offices which they did repaint regularly. Meanwhile, the supervisor would come by for his once per week walk around, stopping by to say hi to me and anyone else he could find to make sure as many people as possible saw him there.
Once it was reported, the department head had a sit down with him and told him the expectation of the position was that he would be physically in the building 40 hours per week. He argued that he was salary and she couldn't hold him to certain hours. Eventually he was fired, but at some point he threatened her physically, which I know because we ended up having to install a panic button in her office because she was scared of him. Nice guy, right?
Personally I think they should have fired the entire group due to the system they set up, but they kept all of the other guys. Maybe they were protected by whistle blower status? Or they were now safe because of the threats he had made? Or the bosses never caught on that they had developed that system for not working among themselves?
Post by: Just Joe on April 22, 2021, 12:53:57 PM
I don't think it lasted very long. A few months before someone got wise. I knew about the first bunch b/c I was a junior engineer working over the weekend on details of larger projects. Supervisor asked if I had seen anyone else. No. Alone in the building. I had a key and the alarm code. I locked myself in.
At the second place I just heard about it through the grapevine. In both cases the whole group were fired.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 22, 2021, 09:22:46 PM
Post by: Roadrunner53 on April 24, 2021, 03:57:00 PM
She would bring her bills to work and work on that. She would make out her Christmas cards and and work on that. She would spend all day goofing off gossiping and around 2 pm she might actually 'start' working. Her kids would call her at work many times after they got home from school. When the rest of us had put in a full day, she appeared to be working hard. Sometimes the big boss would do a walk thru at the end of the day and compliment her for 'working so hard'! OMG, do you think flames were coming out of our ears, the workers who actually worked all day long!
I think she was such a miserable person that no one wanted to monitor her day to day activities. She just did the minimum and that was it. She slided by for years.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 24, 2021, 05:08:07 PM
I worked with a woman who was the queen of goofing off. Our job required certain supplies and sometimes we had to go out and shop for them. This woman would keep 'props' in her vehicle so when she came in late, she would bring a bag of crap in like she was late because she was shopping. Most times she never needed the props.
She would bring her bills to work and work on that. She would make out her Christmas cards and and work on that. She would spend all day goofing off gossiping and around 2 pm she might actually 'start' working. Her kids would call her at work many times after they got home from school. When the rest of us had put in a full day, she appeared to be working hard. Sometimes the big boss would do a walk thru at the end of the day and compliment her for 'working so hard'! OMG, do you think flames were coming out of our ears, the workers who actually worked all day long!
I think she was such a miserable person that no one wanted to monitor her day to day activities. She just did the minimum and that was it. She slided by for years.
The contractors who are supposed to be doing the work at my office hired this one women who was completely worthless and did nothing. They finally fired her after a year or so but I literally can't point to a single thing she actually accomplished in that time. She was assigned several different small projects and made no progress on any of them, or did such poor work that the people assigned to come after here and "finish" them had to start completely over.
Post by: Bloop Bloop Reloaded on April 24, 2021, 11:46:05 PM
If I was in a job where I was under-utilised I'd seek to change jobs, or at least make better use of the time (like by running a side business - a breach of contract, but not illegal and the contractual issues rarely surface as long as you're clever and a good politician).
Last place I worked I developed a chronic injury which legitimately put me off my employee work but which allowed me to use up all my accrued sick leave. In the meantime from home with special software I developed some ideas for my own business at pretty good profit. Arguably a breach of contract but not otherwise illegal or fraudulent. Now that's how to be efficient in the workplace.
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 25, 2021, 09:11:47 AM
Folks with this freedom may (or may not) realize how fortunate we are. We can go down the reddit rabbithole for 20 minutes without anyone noticing or caring, but if some teenage retail worker checks their phone for a minute, many of us treat them like they're a lazy sack of crap. It's a huge double standard that higher earners' time isn't policed very heavily at all, while lower earners have their time monitored constantly, whether they're working at Amazon, or driving a delivery vehicle, working on a cruise ship, or flipping burgers. Any deviation, even for things like restroom breaks, can be viewed as them being lazy, whereas many higher earners could take 10 restroom breaks a day and no one would say a word.
When I worked for government, my time was policed pretty tightly. I actually had a timecard. I had lunch at a set time every day. I had to tell my supervisor if I was going to be gone for more than 10 minutes or so. They had all sorts of website filters. I didn't feel like I was being treated like a professional, and I resented it immensely. I can't imagine how some of the workers I described above feel about how closely they are scrutinized. They don't get the luxury of having goof-off time just accepted as part of the job.
Post by: BlueHouse on April 25, 2021, 09:19:43 AM
A decade ago my work ethic was much stronger, but working government, any "improvements" that I could find and suggest weren't appreciated. I really preferred to keep busy, but even helping other people out, I found out top management was telling people not to use me because they didn't want a highly-paid person doing any menial work. So instead, I learned how to be a good mustachian, heheh.
Post by: iluvzbeach on April 25, 2021, 09:26:51 AM
These forums wouldn't be nearly as busy as they are if white collar folks didn't have the freedom to surf during work hours. Just based on when my followed topics update, traffic seems to go way down at nights and on weekends.
Folks with this freedom may (or may not) realize how fortunate we are. We can go down the reddit rabbithole for 20 minutes without anyone noticing or caring, but if some teenage retail worker checks their phone for a minute, many of us treat them like they're a lazy sack of crap. It's a huge double standard that higher earners' time isn't policed very heavily at all, while lower earners have their time monitored constantly, whether they're working at Amazon, or driving a delivery vehicle, working on a cruise ship, or flipping burgers. Any deviation, even for things like restroom breaks, can be viewed as them being lazy, whereas many higher earners could take 10 restroom breaks a day and no one would say a word.
When I worked for government, my time was policed pretty tightly. I actually had a timecard. I had lunch at a set time every day. I had to tell my supervisor if I was going to be gone for more than 10 minutes or so. They had all sorts of website filters. I didn't feel like I was being treated like a professional, and I resented it immensely. I can't imagine how some of the workers I described above feel about how closely they are scrutinized. They don't get the luxury of having goof-off time just accepted as part of the job.
I suspect a key difference is that one group is paid by the hour and the other group is exempt. The exempt group is more likely to be working during “off hours” and, as such, their working time isn’t monitored as closely. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that this may be why you see policing of time for one group and not the other.
Post by: thesis on April 25, 2021, 02:03:29 PM
To be fair though, at a previous employer, my department - dead serious - had essentially no work for well over half a year. It still amazes me to this day. It was glorious. However, I used much of that time to invest in my skills, some of which was actually relevant to the job. A coworker watched several seasons of Stargate. Eventually, my skills qualified me for a better job and I left. There were definitely a few days doing nothing but reading FIRE blogs, but I had a hard time feeling bad about that while my boss was watching YouTube.
I like the idea of "become so skilled at something that it's no longer hard, or you're largely kept around for those few times your skills are really needed," as BlueHouse mentioned, but that could just be my attitude this weekend as I try to make up a few hours I missed during the week.... It's not that I don't have a work ethic, it's just...you can be dumb and lazy, or you can be smart and lazy, fully qualified to find other jobs that take life at the pace you want. I know which I prefer. I'd spend all day cleaning, refactoring, and fixing our system, but it doesn't work that way as there is ROI to consider. Oh, well.
Post by: EricEng on April 26, 2021, 03:38:04 PM
As a software developer, I don't think it's actually possible to spend a straight 8 hours deeply focused on work. I think my brain would just explode. Sometimes I have a problem to solve and it could take several hours to think through, and most of that time will not involve writing code at all. I find that freeing my mind on things like blogs and forums keeps me sane and I still get the work done in the end. Knowledge work is a different beast, but sometimes I feel guilty because factory-worker ethics still rules the working world. But with knowledge work, 1 unit of time does not equal 1 unit of productivity. It's just different.This! So very true. I know a few developers that manage to just work it non stop straight, but they are the exception. I always needed mental breaks to try and get a better wrap around the coding problem. I've tried to explain this issue to folks that have only worked in the manual/min thinking labor field with constant supervision and they don't get it.
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 26, 2021, 04:15:10 PM
What's the way to make it fair? I don't know. But I'm just reminding us how good we have it, and how little respect blue collar folks are given by their employers (and in the case of retail, the general public.)