Author Topic: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.  (Read 95288 times)

DreamFIRE

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #850 on: July 21, 2018, 07:09:10 PM »

I'm regularly hearing another story about coffee being good for you.  It's funny, because the first thing I remember hearing about coffee affecting your health was that it could cause cancer.  That was probably 30 years ago.  Everything I've heard since has been good news for coffee drinkers.

Coffee does have known carcinogens.  Maybe it slightly increases your risk for one cancer, reduces risk for another cancer, and has other food and bad effects.  Most people want to know if it increases or decreases  life expectancy

Sorry, I guess I meant to imply that based on the regular good news.  It increases life expectancy for most people.  And typically, they state the benefit is there for decaf as well.

Travis

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #851 on: July 21, 2018, 08:18:28 PM »

I'm regularly hearing another story about coffee being good for you.  It's funny, because the first thing I remember hearing about coffee affecting your health was that it could cause cancer.  That was probably 30 years ago.  Everything I've heard since has been good news for coffee drinkers.

The leading cause of cancer in lab mice is cancer research.

BTDretire

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #852 on: July 21, 2018, 09:14:30 PM »

I'm regularly hearing another story about coffee being good for you.  It's funny, because the first thing I remember hearing about coffee affecting your health was that it could cause cancer.  That was probably 30 years ago.  Everything I've heard since has been good news for coffee drinkers.

Coffee does have known carcinogens.  Maybe it slightly increases your risk for one cancer, reduces risk for another cancer, and has other food and bad effects.
 Most people want to know if it increases or decreases  life expectancy
I don't know about life expectancy, but my morning seems to drag on, if I don't have my coffee!

DreamFIRE

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #853 on: July 21, 2018, 09:19:17 PM »

I'm regularly hearing another story about coffee being good for you.  It's funny, because the first thing I remember hearing about coffee affecting your health was that it could cause cancer.  That was probably 30 years ago.  Everything I've heard since has been good news for coffee drinkers.

Coffee does have known carcinogens.  Maybe it slightly increases your risk for one cancer, reduces risk for another cancer, and has other food and bad effects.
 Most people want to know if it increases or decreases  life expectancy
I don't know about life expectancy, but my morning seems to drag on, if I don't have my coffee!

If you're sleepy and about to make a drive, a cup of coffee could make an immediate impact of increasing your lifespan.

Just Joe

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #854 on: July 23, 2018, 09:04:49 AM »
Aren't those news articles about this causing cancer and that leading to a longer life just industry funded research to drive sales?

We've seen the same thing in the "debate" for/against green tech and fossil fuels. Some of that reads like propaganda. ;)

FIRE@50

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #855 on: July 23, 2018, 12:20:50 PM »
Aren't those news articles about this causing cancer and that leading to a longer life just industry funded research to drive sales?

We've seen the same thing in the "debate" for/against green tech and fossil fuels. Some of that reads like propaganda. ;)
Yes. Anytime you hear about a new study, all you have to do is look to see who paid for it. With that information, you will know the results without even reading.

dragoncar

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #856 on: July 23, 2018, 12:54:16 PM »
Aren't those news articles about this causing cancer and that leading to a longer life just industry funded research to drive sales?

We've seen the same thing in the "debate" for/against green tech and fossil fuels. Some of that reads like propaganda. ;)

That's why I switched to Starbucks.  For the extra cancer. 

Hirondelle

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #857 on: July 24, 2018, 02:06:27 AM »
Aren't those news articles about this causing cancer and that leading to a longer life just industry funded research to drive sales?

We've seen the same thing in the "debate" for/against green tech and fossil fuels. Some of that reads like propaganda. ;)

Many of those news articles actually completely don't reflect the science that's been done. A while ago there was this example where a certain compound, that occurs in farts, could stop cancer cells growing. I don't remember if they were in petridish or mice-study stages.

What did the news articles make of it? SMELLING OTHERS FARTS CURES CANCER!!!!

asauer

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #858 on: July 24, 2018, 10:38:27 AM »
I dont understand while so many of our friends with older kids be it in High School or early college are building bigger new house then they lived in. And the costs are not cheap. These people are in the there mid 40's early 50's building 500-1,000,000 homes almost as a reward to themselves that the kids are out?! I just dont get it. Everyone of them is going to lose money when i do the math for sure where I live.

I know!  Happening where I live too.  I just do. not. get. it.  My hubs and I have agreed that the second our kids are out of the house, we're putting our 2,800 sqft house up for sale and downsizing.  I want the money (hopefully) and not so much damn house to clean and maintain.

draculawyer

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #859 on: July 27, 2018, 10:08:07 PM »
I don't get the draw of all the "snack sizes" that have come onto the market recently. Trader Joe's sells "mini brie bites" that are 70 calories each and cost $5 for a bag of 5.  TJ's also has Citterio snack packs with about an ounce of sausage and an ounce of cheese, sliced up into small circles, for about $2.95. Then you have your cheaper stuff like the P3 "Protein Packs" that are at Safeway for like $2.50, and all the snacks that are sold in Starbucks now. Hormel makes tortilla/meat/cheese wraps that cost over $3 for less than 3 ounces of food.  I get the surface allure-it's quick, easy, not as many calories as a full meal, you don't have to think, etc. But...that's where your money's going. Your daily $3 Hormel Natural Choice Snack Wrap is standing between you and owning a home, or paying off your student loans. You could totally hemorrhage all your money in snack food alone.

RFAAOATB

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #860 on: July 28, 2018, 08:21:00 AM »
My 'I Don't Get It' rant is targeted at the losers of gentrification, those priced out of their neighborhoods when the rent increases beyond their ability to pay.  While I understand the inconvenience, what legitimate claim do they have to their neighborhood compared to landlords and developers?  If they wanted a claim to indefinitely stay in a specific location, they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

I also don't get why rent control and affordable housing mandates are a preferable option compared to figuring out a way to make market rate housing affordable for a minimum wage earner.  Single room occupancy buildings may be a solution.

runbikerun

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #861 on: July 28, 2018, 08:45:41 AM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.

kanga1622

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #862 on: July 28, 2018, 09:06:10 AM »
I don't get the draw of all the "snack sizes" that have come onto the market recently. Trader Joe's sells "mini brie bites" that are 70 calories each and cost $5 for a bag of 5.  TJ's also has Citterio snack packs with about an ounce of sausage and an ounce of cheese, sliced up into small circles, for about $2.95. Then you have your cheaper stuff like the P3 "Protein Packs" that are at Safeway for like $2.50, and all the snacks that are sold in Starbucks now. Hormel makes tortilla/meat/cheese wraps that cost over $3 for less than 3 ounces of food.  I get the surface allure-it's quick, easy, not as many calories as a full meal, you don't have to think, etc. But...that's where your money's going. Your daily $3 Hormel Natural Choice Snack Wrap is standing between you and owning a home, or paying off your student loans. You could totally hemorrhage all your money in snack food alone.

Unfortunately we will be buying a lot more single sized snack purchases over the next couple of years. Having a kid that canít eat the snack provided by school means we have to provide our own each day. For the afternoon we can just pack our own but the classroom snack must be individually packaged. And must be nut free. I appreciate the options that arenít simply cookies. And they do come in handy when you are stuck away from home longer than expected with young kids that need a snack. Our oldest loves the cheese and carrot packs that Walmart and Target sell. He gets 1-2 a year so not a huge budget buster but worth it to stop the grumpy attitude when he gets hungry.

Hula Hoop

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #863 on: July 28, 2018, 09:14:19 AM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

dragoncar

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #864 on: July 28, 2018, 03:36:07 PM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

I donít get it.  Why didnít they just get a better job?  Then they could afford the increasing rent

RFAAOATB

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #865 on: July 28, 2018, 04:12:41 PM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

When a place gets hot and rents go up, their choice is to move somewhere cheaper, pay more, or get in a roommate situation to split costs.  I know it's difficult, inconvenient, and unpopular.  What I don't get is why the displaced feel they have a right to a neighborhood at a certain price point.

marty998

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #866 on: July 28, 2018, 05:22:15 PM »
I don't get the draw of all the "snack sizes" that have come onto the market recently. Trader Joe's sells "mini brie bites" that are 70 calories each and cost $5 for a bag of 5.  TJ's also has Citterio snack packs with about an ounce of sausage and an ounce of cheese, sliced up into small circles, for about $2.95. Then you have your cheaper stuff like the P3 "Protein Packs" that are at Safeway for like $2.50, and all the snacks that are sold in Starbucks now. Hormel makes tortilla/meat/cheese wraps that cost over $3 for less than 3 ounces of food.  I get the surface allure-it's quick, easy, not as many calories as a full meal, you don't have to think, etc. But...that's where your money's going. Your daily $3 Hormel Natural Choice Snack Wrap is standing between you and owning a home, or paying off your student loans. You could totally hemorrhage all your money in snack food alone.

Arrrrrgh the downsizes of all my favourite junk foods really irritates me more than it should.

A can of Pringles has been reduced in size by 30grams, and the size of the chips has been reduced, and the price has gone up!

Maddening.


merula

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #867 on: July 28, 2018, 06:15:05 PM »
A can of Pringles has been reduced in size by 30grams, and the size of the chips has been reduced, and the price has gone up!

Maddening.

At least you can get the good flavors like paprika and Emmental.

I don't get why, given how delicious paprika-flavored potato chips are, you can't find them in the U.S. anywhere.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #868 on: July 28, 2018, 06:20:12 PM »
I don't get why, with how delicious European Orange Fanta is, you can't hardly get it anywhere in the US, except for the odd Euromarket here and there.

The bright orange American version is way too artificially sweet.

SwordGuy

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #869 on: July 28, 2018, 07:18:11 PM »
I don't get why, with how delicious European Orange Fanta is, you can't hardly get it anywhere in the US, except for the odd Euromarket here and there.

The bright orange American version is way too artificially sweet.

That would be because few Americans have culture or good taste in, well, almost anything.

Travis

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #870 on: July 28, 2018, 10:41:46 PM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

When a place gets hot and rents go up, their choice is to move somewhere cheaper, pay more, or get in a roommate situation to split costs.  I know it's difficult, inconvenient, and unpopular.  What I don't get is why the displaced feel they have a right to a neighborhood at a certain price point.

I can't speak for all situations, but for the area I grew up in CA, the folks who are upset at being priced out of neighborhoods they've lived in for a couple generations is that they're being displaced by people outside of the region.  New high paying jobs in or near the Bay Area are causing those workers to find homes further inland. Their high salaries are driving up rents.  I can see how "out of towners" forcing you out of the area you grew up in can be upsetting.  If it was just because the area was seeing a homegrown increase in the market, well that's just life.

runbikerun

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #871 on: July 29, 2018, 01:48:26 AM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

When a place gets hot and rents go up, their choice is to move somewhere cheaper, pay more, or get in a roommate situation to split costs.  I know it's difficult, inconvenient, and unpopular.  What I don't get is why the displaced feel they have a right to a neighborhood at a certain price point.

Because they're the ones who made it what it is. Because in a lot of cases, they grew up in that area their whole lives. Because their jobs, their friends and their children's schools are in that area.

Not to mention the fact that gentrification in the western world generally tends to mean an area getting progressively whiter, and an ethnic minority being pushed out to a cheaper location. That's damaging on a broader societal level as well.

Hula Hoop

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #872 on: July 29, 2018, 04:58:22 AM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

I donít get it.  Why didnít they just get a better job?  Then they could afford the increasing rent

This is a joke, right?

Why don't poor people just make more money?  I don't get it. 

Dicey

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #873 on: July 29, 2018, 06:19:34 AM »
...they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

Generally speaking, gentrification tends to hit populations which are far less likely than the median to be able to access mortgage credit.


Exactly.  For many low income people, buying property is not an option.  You make it sound like they had a choice.

I donít get it.  Why didnít they just get a better job?  Then they could afford the increasing rent

This is a joke, right?

Why don't poor people just make more money?  I don't get it.
Of course it's a joke. Dragoncar has been around here forever and is known both for his piercing insight and sense of humor. DC also lives in SF, which is kind of Ground Zero for gentrification and skyrocketing rents.

On a related note, this is a point that rarely comes up in the Rent vs. Buy debate. If you buy in an area that gentrifies and becomes unaffordable, at least you can sell for a large profit. If you rent and get priced out, you're just shit out of luck.

Real life example: DH has a colleague who got divorced and rented an apartment in Oakland because it was cheap, at "only" $1k per month. Just a year later,  it's $1700/month. It is not in a desirable area, nor has it gentrified significantly.

merula

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #874 on: July 29, 2018, 06:36:22 AM »
Because they're the ones who made it what it is. Because in a lot of cases, they grew up in that area their whole lives. Because their jobs, their friends and their children's schools are in that area.

Not to mention the fact that gentrification in the western world generally tends to mean an area getting progressively whiter, and an ethnic minority being pushed out to a cheaper location. That's damaging on a broader societal level as well.

They made the neighborhood what it is. You're absolutely right here, but in a lot of cases (San Francisco in particular), the way they made the neighborhood is the reason that the housing supply is so restricted. Decade upon decade of building height and occupancy restrictions leaves a city with hundreds of thousands fewer housing units than it might have had. Housing units that conceivably could have been a counter to new demand, or an affordable alternative to people who are priced out of their townhouse.

I'm seeing this in my neighborhood. There is a vocal contingent of neighbors who insist that any construction that is not 3-4 bedroom single-family homes is "destroying neighborhood character", and then complain that the sharp rise in house prices and rents is forcing them out.

A 5 or 6 story apartment building can house ~50 people in the same lot as one single-family home. No one is going to replace all of this area's single-family homes, mid-rise apartment buildings have existed in this area since it was originally built (1910-1950), and all that housing supply gives people who want to live here an alternative.

GreenEggs

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #875 on: July 29, 2018, 07:31:14 AM »
There are nice things about choosing to live in a rural area.  Most of my neighbors have four legs or wings.  We'll probably be living on other planets before my "neighborhood" gets gentrified. 


We have clean air & water, fiber optic WiFi, but it's a 20 minute drive to groceries & restaurants. 


I like people, but I like being able to get away from people even more.  ;)

Dicey

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #876 on: July 29, 2018, 10:35:58 AM »
Tagging on to ^this^ thinking is the people who say "It's so expensive now that my kids can't afford to live here." In CA, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find the parents making this statement came from somewhere else themselves. Not everyone wants to live where their parents are. How many examples are there of kids who go to college in another area and never come back? I was so happy to get the fuck out of the place I grew up. I don't know when it became a thing for kids to want to stay and buy the house across the street from the parents. Frankly, I don't think it is. I think it's wishful thinking on the parent's part.

Related: These same parents seem to forget that they typically didn't start in their present home. Their kids expect their "starter" house to be at least as good as what their parents worked their way up to. It's fun to ask the parents if their first house had granite countertops, a full suite of matching SS appliances, dual vanities and walk-in closets.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #877 on: July 29, 2018, 12:18:08 PM »
I don't get stanced/lowered cars
I don't get the draw of buying brand new flagship cell phones, nor the headlong rush to larger screens and thinner profiles.
I don't understand the draw of expensive watches or jewelry. My 10-year-old $30 Timex still works just as well, Tyvm
I don't get the social rush from one diet or supplement or smoothie fad to the next.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #878 on: July 29, 2018, 12:22:02 PM »
Tagging on to ^this^ thinking is the people who say "It's so expensive now that my kids can't afford to live here." In CA, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find the parents making this statement came from somewhere else themselves. Not everyone wants to live where their parents are. How many examples are there of kids who go to college in another area and never come back? I was so happy to get the fuck out of the place I grew up. I don't know when it became a thing for kids to want to stay and buy the house across the street from the parents. Frankly, I don't think it is. I think it's wishful thinking on the parent's part.

I think this is mainly a symptom of the increased expectations of work and jobs. There is no such thing as a 9-5 job in these major areas that pays a good enough wage for a single earner to support a family anymore. For a single earner to support a household in a HCOL area, either both partners must work, or one partner must work very long hours...at the minimum. Often, both partners must work long hours. This begs the question of, if the family has kids, who drops them off at school, picks them up, etc. With the rise of unconventional schedules, that can also make weekends challenging. It's a juggling act that is benefitted greatly by the presence of parents who can provide free babysitting while the couple deals with the realities of modern employment.

SwordGuy

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #879 on: July 29, 2018, 07:46:58 PM »
My 'I Don't Get It' rant is targeted at the losers of gentrification, those priced out of their neighborhoods when the rent increases beyond their ability to pay.  While I understand the inconvenience, what legitimate claim do they have to their neighborhood compared to landlords and developers?  If they wanted a claim to indefinitely stay in a specific location, they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

I'm with you on this one.  To me, it's like a man dating a woman for years and years, and even though she wants to get married, he never proposes.  Until one day, Man #2 swoops in, pops the question, and the new couple lives happily ever after.  I'm supposed to be feel bad for Man #1?

Likewise, I'm supposed to have sympathy for the renters who were only "dating" the neighborhood, but who never popped the question?  They should have put a ring on it.

*I acknowledge this isn't the best analogy in the world, but it's also not the worst.  If you've got generations of a family living in a neighborhood, who "made" the neighborhood, but not one family member ever has the means or foresight to purchase?  I think that's nonsense how little agency we're assigning to those people; that's completely infantilizing adults.   As it happens, right now there is another thread where folks are asking the question, "Do you feel sympathy for people who are paying large student loans?" ... and folks are mostly saying, "Well, they are 18... that's life, they should have known."  It's very interesting to me how little sympathy those "adults"there are getting, compared to how much sympathy the folks who are displaced because of gentrification are getting.   

Well, while my white grandparents worked the farm land, they built equity on it, then purchased more farmland.
  Black farmers, however, were not given farm loans, or not given as good a terms (given equal financial circumstances), or driven off their land by a conspiracy of local sheriffs and the local wealthy white folks.   Yeah, it happened.   Don't kid yourself it didn't.


When other white grandparents needed a loan to buy a house in town or start a business, they could get one.  But black neighborhoods were redlined.   The banks didn't extend credit for starting businesses or buying homes in "the wrong part of town."    Yeah, it happened.  It happened a lot.      But it wasn't illegal when the blacks were forced to rent because they couldn't get credit and weren't allowed to have the good jobs, anyway.   Thankfully, that practice is now illegal.   

But it gets better.  If a black run town or area started to do well, whites would drive them out.   I don't mean gentrification.  I mean armed violence, death and destruction.   Check out the Wilmington, NC coup of 1898, when armed whites took over the town government, burned down the black run newspaper, and hung black community leaders.  Then set up their own white-run government in its stead. 

Or when whites rampaged thru Rosewood, Florida and massacred the black inhabitants in 1923.   

Or Tulsa, OK, where the black neighborhood became so prosperous it was referred to as "Black Wall Street".   White folks didn't care for that, so the police rented airplanes and dropped firebombs on the black part of town to burn the blacks out and force them to leave in 1921.

You think job prejudice and disgusting episodes like that didn't -- just a tad -- interfere with intergenerational wealth building in black communities?   Just a little bit?? 

But let's assume for a moment that a black family in our grand parent's day got their act together and tried to improve things.   We've all seen what a TREMENDOUS difference just a 1% financial fee is on wealth building.   Don't you think that all the racist bullshit our country put blacks thru slowed down their wealth building just as much, if not more?


Let's add in piss-poor schools under the separate but (un)equal doctrine, piss poor libraries in black neighborhods, and few wealthy role models to meet, socialize with and learn from.   Think about that for a minute.   Think that might have interfered with the transfer of solid money management skills?   When your daily focus is on getting by without a white guy beating you up or gunning you down because he's bored or frustrated with his life it tends to interfere with long range planning.   


So, while I completely agree with you that too damn many of my fellow Liberals infantalize poor people and refuse to recognize that the poor have (and need to use) agency to improve their situation, your specific example is a piss poor one.



DreamFIRE

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #880 on: July 29, 2018, 08:14:12 PM »
My 'I Don't Get It' rant is targeted at the losers of gentrification, those priced out of their neighborhoods when the rent increases beyond their ability to pay.  While I understand the inconvenience, what legitimate claim do they have to their neighborhood compared to landlords and developers?  If they wanted a claim to indefinitely stay in a specific location, they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

I'm with you on this one.  To me, it's like a man dating a woman for years and years, and even though she wants to get married, he never proposes.  Until one day, Man #2 swoops in, pops the question, and the new couple lives happily ever after.  I'm supposed to be feel bad for Man #1?

Likewise, I'm supposed to have sympathy for the renters who were only "dating" the neighborhood, but who never popped the question?  They should have put a ring on it.

*I acknowledge this isn't the best analogy in the world, but it's also not the worst.  If you've got generations of a family living in a neighborhood, who "made" the neighborhood, but not one family member ever has the means or foresight to purchase?  I think that's nonsense how little agency we're assigning to those people; that's completely infantilizing adults.   As it happens, right now there is another thread where folks are asking the question, "Do you feel sympathy for people who are paying large student loans?" ... and folks are mostly saying, "Well, they are 18... that's life, they should have known."  It's very interesting to me how little sympathy those "adults"there are getting, compared to how much sympathy the folks who are displaced because of gentrification are getting.   

Yeah, well said.  I'm one of those that doesn't give them any sympathy.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:11:58 PM by DreamFIRE »

Dabnasty

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #881 on: July 30, 2018, 08:14:32 AM »
My 'I Don't Get It' rant is targeted at the losers of gentrification, those priced out of their neighborhoods when the rent increases beyond their ability to pay.  While I understand the inconvenience, what legitimate claim do they have to their neighborhood compared to landlords and developers?  If they wanted a claim to indefinitely stay in a specific location, they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

I'm with you on this one.  To me, it's like a man dating a woman for years and years, and even though she wants to get married, he never proposes.  Until one day, Man #2 swoops in, pops the question, and the new couple lives happily ever after.  I'm supposed to be feel bad for Man #1?

Likewise, I'm supposed to have sympathy for the renters who were only "dating" the neighborhood, but who never popped the question?  They should have put a ring on it.

*I acknowledge this isn't the best analogy in the world, but it's also not the worst.  If you've got generations of a family living in a neighborhood, who "made" the neighborhood, but not one family member ever has the means or foresight to purchase?  I think that's nonsense how little agency we're assigning to those people; that's completely infantilizing adults.   As it happens, right now there is another thread where folks are asking the question, "Do you feel sympathy for people who are paying large student loans?" ... and folks are mostly saying, "Well, they are 18... that's life, they should have known."  It's very interesting to me how little sympathy those "adults"there are getting, compared to how much sympathy the folks who are displaced because of gentrification are getting.   

I'm thinking this is a terrible analogy...

Can the renter get down on one knee and ask for the deed? pretty please?

and a pretty weird view of marriage to boot.

"I love you honey but this guy seems alright too and he's willing to enter into a legal contract with the state. Sorry."

ETA: I have no strong opinions about the pros and cons of gentrification. I don't know enough to argue what the government should do to improve the situation or what individuals should do from a moral standpoint but I do have sympathy for those who get pushed out. Swordguy paints a good picture of the unfairness of the racial aspect, which applies to much more than just housing.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:19:44 AM by Dabnasty »

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #882 on: July 30, 2018, 09:18:30 PM »
Here, I grabbed some lines from the other thread about 18 year olds who take out big students loans. I'm using these lines to argue that you shouldn't be infantilizing the adults in gentrifying areas who chose to rent instead of to purchase -- in particular, to refute your point that these people are not culpable because they lacked financial mentorship. 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-sympathize-with-folks-that-racked-up-huge-debt-for-private-coll-95215/50/

Quote
By the time someone is 18 they should have moved well beyond the stage of not questioning things and just doing whatever people tell them without thinking about it.  And I definitely seriously question the judgment and intelligence of any adult who says thy ended up in a bad financial situation by blindly doing what other people told them toÖ

Quote
I have a hard time being sympathetic of people who had the information available to make a better decision and didn't.

Quote
The entirety of the internet exists and in that vast information resource it has answers for pretty much any question out there.  If a person is too ignorant to even ask the questions and try to find an answer Ö then I don't feel sorry for them

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People [that are 18} are not children.

You make very cogent points.   

There are a couple of things that are different between prospective college students and general folks who have grown up in a blighted neighborhood within a culture of poverty.

First of all, someone who is educationally prepared to attend college is way, way ahead of the general populace  in education, reading comprehension, and research skills.   You are dealing with a slice of the population that has more skills than average.  ( Average skills are appalling, by the way.)

Now, if you want to argue, "The general population COULD HAVE better skills if they GOT OFF THEIR ASS AND LEARNED what they are supposed to learn in school.", I would have to agree.   But they don't.  And by the time they need them at 18, they don't have them.    We all know people who had much better skills than dug themselves into a hole before they figured things out.  A lot of them post blogs here.  People with less preparation will learn what they need to at a slower rate, just as those who dug a big debt hole will take longer to dig themselves out.

Second, "How to pay for college?" is a question on the minds of everyone.  For most people this is a non-trivial question.   So, they know they need to figure something out.   There's a lot of info out there (now) that is easily stumbled upon by anyone seriously investigating their options.

How is that different from folks brought up in a culture of poverty?   After all, the information is out there and easily found by those who look for it.
The difference is you don't look for the answer to a question you don't know exists.     I once read that in many cases, poverty is caused by a lack of imagination, i.e., the ability to imagine a situation that would be immensely better and then imagine how to get there.  If you don't realize it's possible (except for music or sports stars), you don't look for how to do it.    In a lot of ghettos, the people who do imagine a way out do just that -- get out.  And then they aren't around to be role models for possibilities.

So, yes, they can find the info they need.   But they don't know to look for it.   That's one reason why I spread the knowledge around.   But, being middle class and at work much of the time, I don't get to meet a lot of poor folks.    Hopefully, as things settle down over the course of the next year, I'll be able to improve on that.


GuitarStv

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #883 on: July 31, 2018, 06:57:51 AM »
I was a child at 18.  There was an awful lot of growth between that point and when I was in my mid 20's . . . social, physical, emotional.  I'd argue that mid-20s is where my adulthood really began.

Psychstache

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #884 on: July 31, 2018, 07:20:53 AM »
I was a child at 18.  There was an awful lot of growth between that point and when I was in my mid 20's . . . social, physical, emotional.  I'd argue that mid-20s is where my adulthood really began.

From a neurodevelopmental standpoint, the brain becomes fully formed on average around 24-25, so you are correct. Sadly, most politicians and lawmakers are not neuroscientists.

Cranky

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #885 on: July 31, 2018, 07:22:18 AM »
I was a child at 18.  There was an awful lot of growth between that point and when I was in my mid 20's . . . social, physical, emotional.  I'd argue that mid-20s is where my adulthood really began.

There's a long "Young Adult" part of life, from about 16 through mid-20's, IMO. I expect people to have some pretty well developed moral principles by then, but it's definitely a time when people should be able to experiment, find themselves, make mistakes. I don't think you should whine about living with the consequences of the mistakes you make, but I don't find it morally reprehensible that you've made those mistakes.

But at 18yo, even kids who have worked at a job, have rarely been responsible for paying rent, buying groceries, scheduling their own dental appointments. It just takes time and practice to get a feel for all of that stuff.

I'm a red panda

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #886 on: July 31, 2018, 07:43:19 AM »
Here, I grabbed some lines from the other thread about 18 year olds who take out big students loans. I'm using these lines to argue that you shouldn't be infantilizing the adults in gentrifying areas who chose to rent instead of to purchase -- in particular, to refute your point that these people are not culpable because they lacked financial mentorship. 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-sympathize-with-folks-that-racked-up-huge-debt-for-private-coll-95215/50/

Quote
By the time someone is 18 they should have moved well beyond the stage of not questioning things and just doing whatever people tell them without thinking about it.  And I definitely seriously question the judgment and intelligence of any adult who says thy ended up in a bad financial situation by blindly doing what other people told them toÖ

Quote
I have a hard time being sympathetic of people who had the information available to make a better decision and didn't.

Quote
The entirety of the internet exists and in that vast information resource it has answers for pretty much any question out there.  If a person is too ignorant to even ask the questions and try to find an answer Ö then I don't feel sorry for them

Quote
People [that are 18} are not children.

This thread bugged me for a few reasons.
First- you don't know what you don't know. Often 18-year olds don't even know the questions they should be asking.
Second- it seemed to assume these college seniors had parents who understood the system. Many, many don't. There are many students who do not have an adult to guide them through the process. A first generation college student won't be able to rely on their parent's experience to understand the loan system or the value of degrees from various tiers of universities.

penguintroopers

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #887 on: July 31, 2018, 11:34:18 AM »
Here, I grabbed some lines from the other thread about 18 year olds who take out big students loans. I'm using these lines to argue that you shouldn't be infantilizing the adults in gentrifying areas who chose to rent instead of to purchase -- in particular, to refute your point that these people are not culpable because they lacked financial mentorship. 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-sympathize-with-folks-that-racked-up-huge-debt-for-private-coll-95215/50/

Quote
By the time someone is 18 they should have moved well beyond the stage of not questioning things and just doing whatever people tell them without thinking about it.  And I definitely seriously question the judgment and intelligence of any adult who says thy ended up in a bad financial situation by blindly doing what other people told them toÖ

Quote
I have a hard time being sympathetic of people who had the information available to make a better decision and didn't.

Quote
The entirety of the internet exists and in that vast information resource it has answers for pretty much any question out there.  If a person is too ignorant to even ask the questions and try to find an answer Ö then I don't feel sorry for them

Quote
People [that are 18} are not children.

This thread bugged me for a few reasons.
First- you don't know what you don't know. Often 18-year olds don't even know the questions they should be asking.
Second- it seemed to assume these college seniors had parents who understood the system. Many, many don't. There are many students who do not have an adult to guide them through the process. A first generation college student won't be able to rely on their parent's experience to understand the loan system or the value of degrees from various tiers of universities.

A THIRD generation college student can still struggle. My grandmother and mother went to school during the same years, but since both of them took out loans it was just assumed I would pay for school via loans/scholarships as well. My mom is still paying on her loans, even though she's been out of school for over 20 years.

The idea that "go to college, you'll end up ahead!" is very perverse and will take awhile to die out. Yes, if your options were $10k debt to get an engineering degree, you will get ahead, but $200k for your art/journalism degree.... you're going to have a bad time. But people don't go that far into detail, and when a 17/18 year old hears all of their trustworthy adults all telling them to do one thing, they're going to do that thing!

I'm grateful the idea that "maybe college isn't for everyone, we still need plumbers/electricians/mechanics as much as we need doctors/engineers/lawyers" is finally taking hold, so at least some people start looking at trade schools rather than a traditional 4 year degree.

I'm a red panda

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #888 on: July 31, 2018, 12:18:05 PM »
Here, I grabbed some lines from the other thread about 18 year olds who take out big students loans. I'm using these lines to argue that you shouldn't be infantilizing the adults in gentrifying areas who chose to rent instead of to purchase -- in particular, to refute your point that these people are not culpable because they lacked financial mentorship. 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-sympathize-with-folks-that-racked-up-huge-debt-for-private-coll-95215/50/

Quote
By the time someone is 18 they should have moved well beyond the stage of not questioning things and just doing whatever people tell them without thinking about it.  And I definitely seriously question the judgment and intelligence of any adult who says thy ended up in a bad financial situation by blindly doing what other people told them to…

Quote
I have a hard time being sympathetic of people who had the information available to make a better decision and didn't.

Quote
The entirety of the internet exists and in that vast information resource it has answers for pretty much any question out there.  If a person is too ignorant to even ask the questions and try to find an answer … then I don't feel sorry for them

Quote
People [that are 18} are not children.

This thread bugged me for a few reasons.
First- you don't know what you don't know. Often 18-year olds don't even know the questions they should be asking.
Second- it seemed to assume these college seniors had parents who understood the system. Many, many don't. There are many students who do not have an adult to guide them through the process. A first generation college student won't be able to rely on their parent's experience to understand the loan system or the value of degrees from various tiers of universities.

A THIRD generation college student can still struggle. My grandmother and mother went to school during the same years, but since both of them took out loans it was just assumed I would pay for school via loans/scholarships as well. My mom is still paying on her loans, even though she's been out of school for over 20 years.

The idea that "go to college, you'll end up ahead!" is very perverse and will take awhile to die out. Yes, if your options were $10k debt to get an engineering degree, you will get ahead, but $200k for your art/journalism degree.... you're going to have a bad time. But people don't go that far into detail, and when a 17/18 year old hears all of their trustworthy adults all telling them to do one thing, they're going to do that thing!

I'm grateful the idea that "maybe college isn't for everyone, we still need plumbers/electricians/mechanics as much as we need doctors/engineers/lawyers" is finally taking hold, so at least some people start looking at trade schools rather than a traditional 4 year degree.

But if your mother is still paying on your loans, surely you had some idea that those loans would last for a long time and not be something that are easily paid off as soon as you got your amazing after-college job, right?  It wasn't a complete unknown?

I totally agree with you that any student who has to take out loans may struggle; but I think some have more opportunity to make informed choices than others.  Of course, at 18 we don't often listen to our parents anymore, but don't necessarily have the cognitive processing to know that maybe we should have.

I had scholarships, so I never had loans, but I do know lots of people who thought "I have $60,000 in loans" my job will pay me $30,000 when I finish school. I'll have these paid off in 2 years.  These were not stupid people; but they completely forgot about, you know, living expenses that people use their salaries for.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:51:19 PM by I'm a red panda »

thd7t

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #889 on: July 31, 2018, 01:49:47 PM »
My 'I Don't Get It' rant is targeted at the losers of gentrification, those priced out of their neighborhoods when the rent increases beyond their ability to pay.  While I understand the inconvenience, what legitimate claim do they have to their neighborhood compared to landlords and developers?  If they wanted a claim to indefinitely stay in a specific location, they should have bought property instead of taking their chances with a rental.

I also don't get why rent control and affordable housing mandates are a preferable option compared to figuring out a way to make market rate housing affordable for a minimum wage earner.  Single room occupancy buildings may be a solution.
As an example for the gentrification question, older owners on fixed income may not have the flexibility to handle the increase in tax burden that comes with gentrification.  They may have worked hard at a low income, but bought and paid off a home that they believed that they would be able to afford for life, but this could be pulled out from under their feet.  Naturally, this could result in family and community backlash.

Just Joe

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #890 on: August 01, 2018, 11:54:35 AM »
I don't get why, with how delicious European Orange Fanta is, you can't hardly get it anywhere in the US, except for the odd Euromarket here and there.

The bright orange American version is way too artificially sweet.

"Mexican Coca-Cola is the same way. Fortunately it is easier to get now in my town but it still looks like it is traveling a long way to get here.

Cane sugar > Corn Syrup

RePatriot

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #891 on: August 02, 2018, 05:18:48 AM »
On the gentrification issue, I have a question for those who view it as  problem to be solved.  What is the solution?  Price-fixing?  Won't that have the implication of chilling investment and keeping an area poor?

I currently work in a very impoverished school district.  The area is rapidly gentrifying, but I just don't see the alternatives.  Keep it poor?  Or redistribute wealth so that families can afford the now expensive area?  Is preferred housing a right that should be protected by the government?

To be clear, I understand the pain and problems of taking a neighborhood away from a given population.  But it seems to be a consequence of the ebbs and flows of markets and prices.  I don't see how to give the historic residences of the neighborhood a chance to stay without setting up perverse incentives or preventing investment.

merula

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #892 on: August 02, 2018, 05:37:44 AM »
On the gentrification issue, I have a question for those who view it as  problem to be solved.  What is the solution?  Price-fixing?  Won't that have the implication of chilling investment and keeping an area poor?

I might not be your target, because I don't think gentrification can be stopped, but I do think we can do things to minimize the impact:
-End restrictive zoning laws that require specific kinds of housing in an area, so that there are more housing options at a variety of price points.
-Allow accessory dwelling units (basement apartments, garage apartments, "granny flats"), which lets lower- and fixed-income homeowners to reap the benefits of their valuable location without selling, and increases in housing supply.
-Increase investment in public transit and remove parking minimums in new construction. ("Free parking" drives up the cost of construction and is a waste of space in urban areas.)
-Offer to trade developers zoning variances (building height, setbacks, etc) for public benefits (dedicated low-income units, green space, etc).

None of these things are individual actions, but they require being involved in local politics, where it is actually surprisingly easy for one person to make a big impact. Generally, really boring-sounding stuff like "District Land Use Committee" are dominated by older homeowners who want to "preserve neighborhood character", and don't recognize that, long-term, that's impossible.

GreenEggs

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #893 on: August 02, 2018, 05:43:18 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS. 

Dave1442397

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #894 on: August 02, 2018, 05:56:27 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS.

I feel the same way about that. Put everyone on a scale with their luggage and calculate a fee based on total weight.

Hirondelle

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #895 on: August 02, 2018, 06:06:46 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS.

I feel the same way about that. Put everyone on a scale with their luggage and calculate a fee based on total weight.

If those people managed to pack their stuff within the same weight limit you did something wrong tho ;)

(not to be taken too seriously)

markbike528CBX

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #896 on: August 02, 2018, 06:12:23 AM »
On the gentrification issue, I have a question for those who view it as  problem to be solved.  What is the solution?  Price-fixing?  Won't that have the implication of chilling investment and keeping an area poor?

I might not be your target, because I don't think gentrification can be stopped, but I do think we can do things to minimize the impact:
-End restrictive zoning laws that require specific kinds of housing in an area, so that there are more housing options at a variety of price points.
-Allow accessory dwelling units (basement apartments, garage apartments, "granny flats"), which lets lower- and fixed-income homeowners to reap the benefits of their valuable location without selling, and increases in housing supply.
-Increase investment in public transit and remove parking minimums in new construction. ("Free parking" drives up the cost of construction and is a waste of space in urban areas.)
-Offer to trade developers zoning variances (building height, setbacks, etc) for public benefits (dedicated low-income units, green space, etc).

None of these things are individual actions, but they require being involved in local politics, where it is actually surprisingly easy for one person to make a big impact. Generally, really boring-sounding stuff like "District Land Use Committee" are dominated by older homeowners who want to "preserve neighborhood character", and don't recognize that, long-term, that's impossible.
I've thought about joining the city zoning commitiee as a wintertime retirement thingy. I'm just having too much fun during my first summer of lesiure though.   Posting to remember the ideas here.

GuitarStv

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #897 on: August 02, 2018, 07:12:03 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS.

I feel the same way about that. Put everyone on a scale with their luggage and calculate a fee based on total weight.

I weigh 200 lbs, but would agree with you.  Airplane ticket fees should be based upon total passenger + baggage weight (with a stipulation regarding baggage volume so you don't get stupid people bringing 70lbs of light weight foam or something), with a weigh-in just before departure to calculate the final price.

thd7t

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #898 on: August 02, 2018, 07:17:20 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS.

Doesn't volume seem like it should be a factor?  I don't care if you weigh less than me if you have too much stuff or take up too much room!
I feel the same way about that. Put everyone on a scale with their luggage and calculate a fee based on total weight.

I weigh 200 lbs, but would agree with you.  Airplane ticket fees should be based upon total passenger + baggage weight (with a stipulation regarding baggage volume so you don't get stupid people bringing 70lbs of light weight foam or something), with a weigh-in just before departure to calculate the final price.

SimpleCycle

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Re: The 'I Don't Get It' thread. Rants accepted.
« Reply #899 on: August 02, 2018, 08:59:23 AM »
So, I'm sitting in an airport.  Just had to pay $25 per bag to get my luggage on the damn plane.  I'm surrounded by people that weigh at least 100 lbs more than I do and they're riding for the same rate as me.  Talk about some BS.

It's cute you think prices are based on cost to the airline.  Pricing is based on willingness to pay.  If airlines charged heavier people more, less people would be willing to fly and airlines would make less money.  You depend on those heavy people flying too, to have enough volume to make flying to whatever destination you are flying to worth it for the airline.

If you pack lighter, you can just bring a carry on.  Paying for bags is simply another form of price differentiation among those willing to pay and those not.