Test Yourself! Define Middle Class! No cheating!

[DreamFIRE]

LOL!!!  This thread is pretty laughable to read.

I'm surprised that with the membership of this forum, that more people aren't mentioning household size.  Many aren't even mentioning location / COL.  And other comments here say you have to eat at Chili's, or only certain occupations, or that you can't wear a uniform and be middle class, $200K incomes, that you must have 2.5 children, and many other ridiculous comments.  Definitely good for laugh - I hope some of these people are just joking around and not taking themselves seriously.  I'm not talking about ALL of the comments, there are some pretty good ones also.

I think these are the primary factors to quantitatively measure middle class:

1) income
2) assets
3) debt / liabilities
4) location COL adjustment
5) number of people in household

I don't have an exact formula for putting that all together, but I think wealth such as nice MMM style stashes could be extrapolated into an income equivalent by taking investable assets and multiplying it by 4% and adding that to other income.  Payments on debts for a year would be subtracted from income.

Obviously, a household of 1 needs less income than a household of 5, everything else being equal.   Assuming no crushing debt, a single person around here making $70K is very comfortable compared to a middle class family of 5 making the same income.  So in this area, I would say $70K+ would put a single person into the next class up - the upper middle class, which I differentiate as a class between the middle and upper rather than just being the high end of the middle class.  In San Francisco, it would be a higher cut-off.

Edit:  I posted this much earlier in the thread, but here's a calculator that factors in household size and location:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/05/11/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

Wow! Thanks for pointing this out. It probably didn't occur to anyone but you.

I wasn't the only one to mention both household size and location, but I was surprised how very few did.  Not a big deal, just an observation.

LOL!!!  This thread is pretty laughable to read.

I'm surprised that with the membership of this forum, that more people aren't mentioning household size.  Many aren't even mentioning location / COL. 

Tons of people have mentioned location and COL. I and others have stated that a high COL location is typically a luxury.

I also mentioned children. They're a luxury too. Kids are expensive and most middle class and below people need help from the government in order to raise children.

LOL.  Tons of people didn't mention "both" location and household size.  Very very few mentioned both.

Also, if you re-read what I had posted, I said that I was surprised that more people didn't mention household size AND location, not that no one did.

[Apple_Tango]

I think middle class means that at least one person in the household has to to work to pay your bills, and you have at least enough wiggle room in your budget to contribute up to the match in a 401k. You can splurge occasionally on luxury items, but not very often. Some people in this “class” live paycheck to paycheck or in debt because of their bad choices, not because they are Poor.

Poor: either not working due to no jobs hiring in an economically depressed area or for some other reason (disability, for instance) or working a ton (extra shifts, second jobs) to try and make ends meet. Either way, living paycheck to paycheck, unable to save anything. Not exactly sure how you would make it in an emergency situation if you got sick, or if your car broke down, etc.

Rich: anyone who is able to max out a 401k. Or if you retired early and don’t have to work because your investments work for you.

Filthy Rich: first class flights, champagne brunches, golf membership, designer shoes and handbags, attend charity galas, personal chef, personal trainer, maybe you own a horse or a sports team, etc etc.

I think the disconnect is that people who are Rich  don’t *feel* rich, because they compare themselves to the Filthy Rich. So the Rich think they are Middle Class.

[Cranky]

And I’d say that a household of 2 adults + a baby can be at different “class” levels and the same income - 2 adults both working and each earning $20k is a working or even low income household.

But 1 adult earning $40k and the other adult a sahp is middle class, maybe lower middle class.

[SnackDog]

No job and no income = lower class
Job due to need for income  = middle class
No job and no need for income due to family money = upper class

[aceyou]

Poor - you are regularly thinking or worrying about how to pay for expected normal bills.  Rent, utilities, food, ect. Money is a constant cause of stress.

Lower end of the middle class- paying regular bills is not an issue as long as there are no shocks to the system.  But a thousand dollar unexpected bill, a layoff at work, or something like that puts you into quite a pickle.

Middle class - I don't know, something more secure than ower middle class and less secure than upper:). For people poorer than you, money is a cause of uneasiness.  For people doing better than you financially, money is a source of reassurance and stability.  Your feeling towards money is a combination of both.

Upper middle class -. If you stopped working, you would eventually have to return to employment because you'd run out if money.  But other than that, you are close to bullet proof.  Because of money reserves and/or ability to earn money in a variety of ways, there's very few things that would actually take you down financially.  My wife and I are in this class, and I suspect most.on this forum are too.

Rich/wealthy/ whatever word works best in your mind - you may or may not work, but you don't have to work for money ever.  You are financially independent.  Obviously there are many different levels of this, from mmm to Jeff bezos levels, but fundamentally, money is now like water to you.  When you need it, you turn on the faucet and pour out the amount you need. 

[DreamFIRE]

Rich: anyone who is able to max out a 401k. Or if you retired early and don’t have to work because your investments work for you.

Rich/wealthy/ whatever word works best in your mind - you may or may not work, but you don't have to work for money ever.  You are financially independent.

I've maxed out both my 457B and Roth as well as allowed additional "catch-up" contributions, and I'm certainly FI at >60X bare bones.

My financial situation has been described as "rich" twice in a matter of a few posts here.  I've even had friends / co-workers call me rich on occasion (who have no idea of my stash), but I would never call myself rich, nor do I internally consider myself rich.... just upper middle class.

[aceyou]

Rich: anyone who is able to max out a 401k. Or if you retired early and don’t have to work because your investments work for you.

Rich/wealthy/ whatever word works best in your mind - you may or may not work, but you don't have to work for money ever.  You are financially independent.

I've maxed out both my 457B and Roth as well as allowed additional "catch-up" contributions, and I'm certainly FI at >60X bare bones.

My financial situation has been described as "rich" twice in a matter of a few posts here.  I've even had friends / co-workers call me rich on occasion (who have no idea of my stash), but I would never call myself rich, nor do I internally consider myself rich.... just upper middle class.

60x bare bones?!?!? You never have to work again, and you can spend your time essentially however you like forever, provided you don't go too crazy.  I'm curious, how much more until you'd internally consider yourself rich?

Also, congratulations on the great position you've put yourself in.  Serious kudos. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Class doesn't have anything to do with money. It's about a level of sophistication. The terribly well bred and educated, cash poor but titled aristocrat is still upper class. The well educated and poor vicar is still middle class. The family with a lot of cash, who spend it all on beer and muscle cars is still lower class. Those are all gross generalisations, of course. Things are more fluid now, and more fluid in america, maybe. There's a reason why people talk of SOCIOeconomic groupings, though.

Here's what I'd go with
Obamas - upper middle class
Trumps - lower class
Bushes - upper class
Kennedys - upper class

[DreamFIRE]

Rich: anyone who is able to max out a 401k. Or if you retired early and don’t have to work because your investments work for you.

Rich/wealthy/ whatever word works best in your mind - you may or may not work, but you don't have to work for money ever.  You are financially independent.

I've maxed out both my 457B and Roth as well as allowed additional "catch-up" contributions, and I'm certainly FI at >60X bare bones.

My financial situation has been described as "rich" twice in a matter of a few posts here.  I've even had friends / co-workers call me rich on occasion (who have no idea of my stash), but I would never call myself rich, nor do I internally consider myself rich.... just upper middle class.

60x bare bones?!?!? You never have to work again, and you can spend your time essentially however you like forever, provided you don't go too crazy.  I'm curious, how much more until you'd internally consider yourself rich?

Also, congratulations on the great position you've put yourself in.  Serious kudos.

Thank you, but while I'm at 63X for my "bare bones FIRE budget", I wouldn't want to FIRE just for bare bones.  I want to finally do some traveling, enjoy more entertainment activities, possibly relocate.  I posted more on that here: 
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2019-fire-cohort/msg1952948/#msg1952948

My barebones is low because I have a paid off home in a LCOL area and no debt. To consider myself rich, I think would have to have about $3M in my stash and a nice paid-for house in a higher cost of living area (like a $500,000 house in Nashville).  I'm not saying I want or would buy a $500K house, but that's getting more into the category of rich from my viewpoint.

[aceyou]

Rich: anyone who is able to max out a 401k. Or if you retired early and don’t have to work because your investments work for you.

Rich/wealthy/ whatever word works best in your mind - you may or may not work, but you don't have to work for money ever.  You are financially independent.

I've maxed out both my 457B and Roth as well as allowed additional "catch-up" contributions, and I'm certainly FI at >60X bare bones.

My financial situation has been described as "rich" twice in a matter of a few posts here.  I've even had friends / co-workers call me rich on occasion (who have no idea of my stash), but I would never call myself rich, nor do I internally consider myself rich.... just upper middle class.

60x bare bones?!?!? You never have to work again, and you can spend your time essentially however you like forever, provided you don't go too crazy.  I'm curious, how much more until you'd internally consider yourself rich?

Also, congratulations on the great position you've put yourself in.  Serious kudos.

Thank you, but while I'm at 63X for my "bare bones FIRE budget", I wouldn't want to FIRE just for bare bones.  I want to finally do some traveling, enjoy more entertainment activities, possibly relocate.  I posted more on that here: 
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2019-fire-cohort/msg1952948/#msg1952948

My barebones is low because I have a paid off home in a LCOL area and no debt. To consider myself rich, I think would have to have about $3M in my stash and a nice paid-for house in a higher cost of living area (like a $500,000 house in Nashville).  I'm not saying I want or would buy a $500K house, but that's getting more into the category of rich from my viewpoint.

Fair enough.  I'd still say you are wealthy, but I personally plan to FIRE when my net worth is basically what you are shooting for, so at that point it's really just semantics.  You and are are likely living the same lifestyle and seeking out the same end goals:)  Good luck!

[Radagast]

Lots of people have been prescribing pretty strict upper income limits on middle class, which I am struggling with. Maybe there is a cultural element too as some posters have suggested. My wife will soon be employed full time as a nurse, which is basically my definition of a middle of middle class job. And yet they make pretty good money, a household of two nurses could realistically clear $200k annually which a whole lot of people describe as filthy rich. And yet this is a job whose regular duties include manual poo removal from people who can't do it themselves. There is no way I could describe regular nurses as upper class. Maybe I could if we pulled other countries into the mix but... no, the greatest "class" I could ever assign to the nursing profession is upper middle. And if is true for them then it must also be true for other professions with similar incomes. I think my tax-bracket-based description above is pretty reasonable for a number based description though.

My wife and I are both nurses.  I don't think just because manual poo removal is part of my job description, that that means I'm middle class. 

I think a lot of posters on this forum have skewed perceptions due to their own incomes/savings/lifestyles/peer groups, etc.  IMO, making 150k as a household puts you squarely in upper class, and if we want to argue about that, upper middle class I guess.  I do not think a household making 150k or even 100k really has to worry about much of anything financially.  We saved my wife's entire income for about 2 years (down payment for our house) without really even noticing.  To me that is not a possibility of a middle class household. 

Those of us fortunate to make 100k or more as a household should realize how fortunate we really are, not convince ourselves we are the same as Joe Blow in another neighborhood getting by on 40k.

Just after reading this I came up with an entire medical-field-based scheme to define "income classes in your area according to me" and surprisingly it is the first scheme I made that I am kinda satisfied with. Per household adult,
Lower class 》less than the lowest full time CNA.
Mid-low class 》more than the lowest-paid CNA, but not more than 80th percentile of CNAs
Middle class 》more than 80% of CNAs, but not more than 80% of nurses
Upper middle class 》 more than 80% of nurses, but not more than 80% of doctors
Upper class 》 income greater than 80th percentile of medical doctors.

This seems to work fairly well in describing not only the income ranges, but also the type of job/aspirationality generally associated with each. So according to me, by definition 80% of nurses  in the entire world are in the middle class for their area :)

[Morning Glory]

How about: enough to get rich, or act rich, but not both

[secondcor521]

Another active thread makes a lot of mention of terms like average, middle class, normal, etc.  Made me wonder how many people consider themselves middle class.  Turns out 70% of America considers themselves middle class. No wonder politicians throw the term around so much!  Then, I read the definition of middle class, per Pew Research, and it made little sense to me.  And that, made me wonder what others consider to be middle class. 

So for the TEST! Click reply and post what YOU consider the middle class to be BEFORE reading any of the other responses or doing any type of search.  After you post, feel free to read the other posts and post/link any information you deem helpful.  I'll post my initial thoughts and a link to the 70% article which includes Pew's definition a little way down in the thread.

My guess, posted without reading any other posts, is that it would be the middle quintile of household income.

If you're asking for dollar figures, I *think* the median household income in the US is around $50K per year, and I'm guessing the median might be higher than the average.  So I'd guess the middle quintile is from $40K to $55K per year.

[DreamFIRE]

Another active thread makes a lot of mention of terms like average, middle class, normal, etc.  Made me wonder how many people consider themselves middle class.  Turns out 70% of America considers themselves middle class. No wonder politicians throw the term around so much!  Then, I read the definition of middle class, per Pew Research, and it made little sense to me.  And that, made me wonder what others consider to be middle class. 

So for the TEST! Click reply and post what YOU consider the middle class to be BEFORE reading any of the other responses or doing any type of search.  After you post, feel free to read the other posts and post/link any information you deem helpful.  I'll post my initial thoughts and a link to the 70% article which includes Pew's definition a little way down in the thread.

My guess, posted without reading any other posts, is that it would be the middle quintile of household income.

If you're asking for dollar figures, I *think* the median household income in the US is around $50K per year, and I'm guessing the median might be higher than the average.  So I'd guess the middle quintile is from $40K to $55K per year.

Average income is actually higher than median.  The very high earners bring up the average.  I think average household income is over $70,000/yr. as opposed to the lower median household income.

[soccerluvof4]

I would guess that middle class varies depending on where you live but would be the middle range of income, median house range price and everything else that relates to the middle class being lower middle class 25% and above and Upper middle class being 75% and below.

[Rural]

Another active thread makes a lot of mention of terms like average, middle class, normal, etc.  Made me wonder how many people consider themselves middle class.  Turns out 70% of America considers themselves middle class. No wonder politicians throw the term around so much!  Then, I read the definition of middle class, per Pew Research, and it made little sense to me.  And that, made me wonder what others consider to be middle class. 

So for the TEST! Click reply and post what YOU consider the middle class to be BEFORE reading any of the other responses or doing any type of search.  After you post, feel free to read the other posts and post/link any information you deem helpful.  I'll post my initial thoughts and a link to the 70% article which includes Pew's definition a little way down in the thread.

Test answer: household income between $30k and $70k per year.

[Fishindude]

I think if asked, just about any family that has decent job(s), a house, automobiles, etc. would call themselves middle class.   They would probably also say someone that doesn't have these same things is poor or lower class, and anyone that makes 50% or more above what they pull down is upper class, rich.   "Middle class" actually has no true meaning.

[MayDay]

I think of MC as two things- culturally, and income/savings/familial wealth.

The trouble is that people move out of the financial middle class into UMC or UC, but still feel culturally MC. Or perhaps they are like mustacian and live on a MC budget but have UC salary or savings.

I think financially the middle 50% of income is MC in my mind. But I bet the top 25% almost all identifies as MC.

Personally I identify as MC culturally but academically realize make UC salaries. My children will probably also identify as MC culturally.

The other tricky part is that the top 1% is very different than the top 25%. But the top 25% is still rich.

[ExitViaTheCashRamp]

Am from the UK, so suspect that makes the definition fairly different....

 My understanding is that class is something that you are largely born into. Upper/Middle/Working Class has to a large degree been abolished here, but when I was a your lad your class depends on:

1) Your parents: e.g. Are they landed gentry ? Then it doesn't matter what you earn over your lifetime -- you will always be upper class. Was your father a manual labourer (e.g. coal miner) - if so, then you will probably stay working class for the rest of your life. Otherwise if they are professionals / high grade civil servants e.t.c. then that is a large contributing factor.

2) Was at least one of your parents university educated ? .... N.B. this was an important distinction when I was young -- now with so many going to university, not so much.

  Your own income, wealth & life achievements could help you move class in either direction (downwards far more easily than upwards), however your parents are by far the most contributing factor.

 Here is a good quiz from the BBC if you want to work out your new style UK class:   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

[Kwill]

Am from the UK...  My understanding is that class is something that you are largely born into. Upper/Middle/Working Class has to a large degree been abolished here, but when I was a your lad your class depends on:

1) Your parents: e.g. Are they landed gentry ? ... Was your father a manual labourer (e.g. coal miner)...

2) Was at least one of your parents university educated ?

This is interesting. I appreciated the quiz link. You might also be interested in the Western Europe (including UK) version of the middle class calculator from the Pew Research article earlier. They call it 'middle income' instead of 'middle class': http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/26/are-you-middle-class-in-western-europe-try-our-country-by-country-income-calculators/

I think it is different in the US and UK because of the history. In the US, there are many people who own land, and titles of nobility are prohibited by law. Clearly from the discussion here, both income and culture play a role in how people understand their place in society. In the US, occupation, where you went to university, which degree you took, and your parents' background stand in for some of those distinctions.

One thing that struck me in the preceding discussion is how much things depend on behaviour. The definitions that are not number-based tend to be around what you are able to do with money: buy a house, buy a car, live a certain way, worry or not about money. But in the MMM context, we're aware that what you're able to do with money depends very much on what you actually do with the money you have. Someone with a crazy high income can still overspend and make a complete mess of his or her financial life. Someone with a small income that covers basic expenses may be able to save up over time and be more secure than the person with the larger income.

[HenryDavid]

Growing up in the 70s middle class meant, based on observing local families:
-not punching a clock: either salary or your own business, or self employed trade
-skiing on weekends, playing sports on local teams (equipment costs!)
- cable TV, in colour
-vacations with plane trips, not in the car; motels, not camping
- new cars not used
(Our family—working class—did the “nots”, like clock-punching, and life was still fine)

Upper class meant
-pools, home renos just because
-separate dining room used daily
-other people fixed your house and maintained it, not your dad
-a cottage
- option to have a stay home parent
-possibly private schools

Man, all this stuff meant so much to the grown ups back then! I just climbed trees, listened to music and skipped school. Happiness!

[MrMoneyMullet]

I would define "Middle Income" as any household making between $50k and $150k.

As far as "Middle Class" - I'd say that's any household spending between $30k and $180k annually (excluding early retirees). I think income and class are related but not interchangeable concepts. I think anyone spending in the higher end of this range is certifiably insane but would classify themselves as firmly middle class.

[obstinate]

I'm definitely upper class. I'd define middle class as about 45k to 80k in annual gross income.

[Arbitrage]

My no-cheating take:

Middle class is not the same as 'middle income'.  Middle or median income is easy to define, as it's simply a mathematical term. 

Middle class is much more nebulous, but I define it as a lifestyle.  Middle class, as opposed to lower class, has:

(a) the financial ability/flexibility to take vacations (longer than a weekend) beyond the immediate area
(b) job stability such that a minor illness will not threaten one's employment or financial well-being
(c) the financial ability to own a house or save for a potential house purchase, though many may elect not to
(d) the financial ability to save or consider saving for retirement, though many may elect not to

Middle class, as opposed to upper class, has:

(e) the need to continue working to support one's lifestyle
(f) the majority of one's income from employment
(g) the need to take on debt or accumulate savings over many years to support large purchases such as a house or college education
(h) expectations of only a modest (or no) inheritance/estate to pass on to heirs or charities

Where does that place the FIRE crowd?  Almost in upper class, but for (h).

[Boganvillia]

Household income over $70k.

Household net worth over $250k after age 40.

Acquaintances are drawn from a wide range of occupations.

Participate in a wide variety of cultural activities: sport, theatre-going, gym, karaoke, music festivals.

[EricL]

I consider “middle class” to be people who earb about the average of what all Americans earn.  Yes, some people live in HCOL areas.  But the basic differences aren’t that great across the country.  They can still afford 3 hogs and a cot without problem.  Some are spendthrifts who think they’re poor (and will always think of themselves as poor). Others are content even when they’re in the bottom 25% or lower.  Can’t be helped.

[big_slacker]

A hard dollar value for middle class nationwide isn't accurate as many have said. $40k/yr ain't bad in Memphis, it's TOUGH in Manhattan. It needs to be regional in some sense.

[thd7t]

A hard dollar value for middle class nationwide isn't accurate as many have said. $40k/yr ain't bad in Memphis, it's TOUGH in Manhattan. It needs to be regional in some sense.

It's not easy to do a hard dollar value, but the 2011-2012 median Houshold income in NYC was $50k.  Memphis was about $37K.  At the same time, the median HHI for the USA was $51k.  San Francisco was $61k.  These numbers aren't that far apart and aren't close to some of the numbers that people on this forum think are middle class!

ETA: I chose 2012 because it was easy to get data!

[hucktard]

Alright, I haven't read anyone else's posts yet.
Middle Class: Making enough money to afford a decent house in a safe neighborhood, being able to save for your kids college education and save enough money to retire by 65, and be able to drive at least one newer car, and go on 1 to 2 family vacations per year involving air travel and hotels, and being able to afford decent medical care.

[Optimiser]

$30,000-120,000

[big_slacker]

A hard dollar value for middle class nationwide isn't accurate as many have said. $40k/yr ain't bad in Memphis, it's TOUGH in Manhattan. It needs to be regional in some sense.

It's not easy to do a hard dollar value, but the 2011-2012 median Houshold income in NYC was $50k.  Memphis was about $37K.  At the same time, the median HHI for the USA was $51k.  San Francisco was $61k.  These numbers aren't that far apart and aren't close to some of the numbers that people on this forum think are middle class!

ETA: I chose 2012 because it was easy to get data!

I'm with you there. I know it might not seem it living in a HCOL area but if you're pulling $150k-$250k household you're well off, upper middle class, maybe bordering on rich depending on assets, etc.

[mathlete]

Alright, I haven't read anyone else's posts yet.
Middle Class: Making enough money to afford a decent house in a safe neighborhood, being able to save for your kids college education and save enough money to retire by 65, and be able to drive at least one newer car, and go on 1 to 2 family vacations per year involving air travel and hotels, and being able to afford decent medical care.

That sounds like kind of a lot. Especially depending upon what a "decent" means with regards to housing.

[Jrr85]

Alright, I haven't read anyone else's posts yet.
Middle Class: Making enough money to afford a decent house in a safe neighborhood, being able to save for your kids college education and save enough money to retire by 65, and be able to drive at least one newer car, and go on 1 to 2 family vacations per year involving air travel and hotels, and being able to afford decent medical care.

What you're describing probably requires household income above the 90% in the U.S.  That's basically what we do, except that we do one vacation and I think we'll be able to retire at 58-60.  But probably more like 65 if we took an additional vacation with airfare each year and started driving one newer car.  And we're probably more like the 93rd percentile in household income and live in a relatively LCOL area. 

[grundomatic]

I can't even begin to define middle class, but as best I understand it has more to do with cultural norms than income. I guess I'll answer this test with a self-test readers can do. I'll make it short.

Do you care about what the neighbors might think? If so, you might be middle class.

[nancyjnelson]

I had a discussion about middle class with my 15 year old daughter when I was taking early retirement from my federal job in Washington, DC and on the verge of moving to a LCOL region in Wisconsin.  I was extolling the benefits of living in our new area.

Me:  "And you'll be able to have a part-time job after school to earn money."

Daughter: "Why do I have to get a part-time job? [Older sister} didn't!"

Me:  "[Older sister] didn't because when she was a teenager we were living overseas on diplomatic visas and it would have been illegal.  Besides, having part-time jobs is what all the middle class kids do."

Daughter:  "But we're not middle class!"

Me (with an edge creeping into my voice):  "What do you mean we're not middle class.  Do you think we're rich?"

Daughter (uncertainly):  "No...  But we do a lot of overseas travel!"

Then I had to explain to the little dear the difference between traveling for pleasure and traveling because I was being assigned overseas (for which my employer paid all expenses).  It's funny the impression kids pick up.

But she got it.  She had part-time jobs through high school and college.  She'll be graduating a year early to save money.
 

[Radagast]

I can't even begin to define middle class, but as best I understand it has more to do with cultural norms than income. I guess I'll answer this test with a self-test readers can do. I'll make it short.

Do you care about what the neighbors might think? If so, you might be middle class.

The use of the word "class" is what makes it hard. If it was "middle income" we could cite income broken into thirds or fifths or deciles and be done. Originally middle class meant anyone who was not a peasant farmer/uneducated laborer or His Lordship. So it is not surprising pretty much all Americans see themselves as middle class. On the one hand middle class meant anyone in a skilled trade, a business owner, or who was well educated, which is about the 30th-99th percentiles these days. On the other hand in the old days most people were uneducated peasants, so middle class was formerly something like the 90th-99th percentiles, which can give it an aura of nearly-elitism to many.

Caring what the neighbors think afflicts all people of all classes of all eras. Few people care more what the neighbors think than the uneducated peasants in my wife's parent's village in China do.

[Arbitrage]

 I think the FIRE crowd transcends most class values.

I agree.

[Mikila]

I did not cheat! 

Some years back (7? 8?) I was curious if we had finally "made it" into the middle class and did some research then.  If I recall correctly, it was around the $40-$80K annual income range.  And we hadn't yet attained a middle class income. 

[grundomatic]

I can't even begin to define middle class, but as best I understand it has more to do with cultural norms than income. I guess I'll answer this test with a self-test readers can do. I'll make it short.

Do you care about what the neighbors might think? If so, you might be middle class.

The use of the word "class" is what makes it hard. If it was "middle income" we could cite income broken into thirds or fifths or deciles and be done. Originally middle class meant anyone who was not a peasant farmer/uneducated laborer or His Lordship. So it is not surprising pretty much all Americans see themselves as middle class. On the one hand middle class meant anyone in a skilled trade, a business owner, or who was well educated, which is about the 30th-99th percentiles these days. On the other hand in the old days most people were uneducated peasants, so middle class was formerly something like the 90th-99th percentiles, which can give it an aura of nearly-elitism to many.

Caring what the neighbors think afflicts all people of all classes of all eras. Few people care more what the neighbors think than the uneducated peasants in my wife's parent's village in China do.

I've lived in different neighborhoods and in my mind I was comparing the suburban "middle class" neighbors that were interested in nice lawns, flower gardens, washing vehicles, updating houses, etc, to the city "working class" neighbors that had no problem with the whole neighborhood hearing their fights, leaving broken down vehicles in the driveway or yard for long periods of time, smoking on the front patio with their kid screaming and pounding on our front door when they could've been in their backyard, etc. It felt like being in a foreign country where they speak the same language (mostly) and used the same money, but otherwise...

Humans are social animals and to some degree everyone except for the sociopaths cares what the neighbors think, but from my experience the middle class seems to really highly value keeping up appearances, where as the working class (apparently) does not value it as much. I was trying to get at "it isn't just income", but doing it way worse than others in the thread...of course I didn't know that when I wrote my response because I didn't cheat. That's also what I get for trying to be pithy when an entire book can and has been written on the subject. 

[Radagast]

I can't even begin to define middle class, but as best I understand it has more to do with cultural norms than income. I guess I'll answer this test with a self-test readers can do. I'll make it short.

Do you care about what the neighbors might think? If so, you might be middle class.

The use of the word "class" is what makes it hard. If it was "middle income" we could cite income broken into thirds or fifths or deciles and be done. Originally middle class meant anyone who was not a peasant farmer/uneducated laborer or His Lordship. So it is not surprising pretty much all Americans see themselves as middle class. On the one hand middle class meant anyone in a skilled trade, a business owner, or who was well educated, which is about the 30th-99th percentiles these days. On the other hand in the old days most people were uneducated peasants, so middle class was formerly something like the 90th-99th percentiles, which can give it an aura of nearly-elitism to many.

Caring what the neighbors think afflicts all people of all classes of all eras. Few people care more what the neighbors think than the uneducated peasants in my wife's parent's village in China do.

I've lived in different neighborhoods and in my mind I was comparing the suburban "middle class" neighbors that were interested in nice lawns, flower gardens, washing vehicles, updating houses, etc, to the city "working class" neighbors that had no problem with the whole neighborhood hearing their fights, leaving broken down vehicles in the driveway or yard for long periods of time, smoking on the front patio with their kid screaming and pounding on our front door when they could've been in their backyard, etc. It felt like being in a foreign country where they speak the same language (mostly) and used the same money, but otherwise...

Humans are social animals and to some degree everyone except for the sociopaths cares what the neighbors think, but from my experience the middle class seems to really highly value keeping up appearances, where as the working class (apparently) does not value it as much. I was trying to get at "it isn't just income", but doing it way worse than others in the thread...of course I didn't know that when I wrote my response because I didn't cheat. That's also what I get for trying to be pithy when an entire book can and has been written on the subject.

I wasn't criticizing, just discussing.

[Gin1984]

And I’d say that a household of 2 adults + a baby can be at different “class” levels and the same income - 2 adults both working and each earning $20k is a working or even low income household.

But 1 adult earning $40k and the other adult a sahp is middle class, maybe lower middle class.

Or compared to one adult making $40K and two kids

[Cranky]

I can't even begin to define middle class, but as best I understand it has more to do with cultural norms than income. I guess I'll answer this test with a self-test readers can do. I'll make it short.

Do you care about what the neighbors might think? If so, you might be middle class.

The use of the word "class" is what makes it hard. If it was "middle income" we could cite income broken into thirds or fifths or deciles and be done. Originally middle class meant anyone who was not a peasant farmer/uneducated laborer or His Lordship. So it is not surprising pretty much all Americans see themselves as middle class. On the one hand middle class meant anyone in a skilled trade, a business owner, or who was well educated, which is about the 30th-99th percentiles these days. On the other hand in the old days most people were uneducated peasants, so middle class was formerly something like the 90th-99th percentiles, which can give it an aura of nearly-elitism to many.

Caring what the neighbors think afflicts all people of all classes of all eras. Few people care more what the neighbors think than the uneducated peasants in my wife's parent's village in China do.

I've lived in different neighborhoods and in my mind I was comparing the suburban "middle class" neighbors that were interested in nice lawns, flower gardens, washing vehicles, updating houses, etc, to the city "working class" neighbors that had no problem with the whole neighborhood hearing their fights, leaving broken down vehicles in the driveway or yard for long periods of time, smoking on the front patio with their kid screaming and pounding on our front door when they could've been in their backyard, etc. It felt like being in a foreign country where they speak the same language (mostly) and used the same money, but otherwise...

Humans are social animals and to some degree everyone except for the sociopaths cares what the neighbors think, but from my experience the middle class seems to really highly value keeping up appearances, where as the working class (apparently) does not value it as much. I was trying to get at "it isn't just income", but doing it way worse than others in the thread...of course I didn't know that when I wrote my response because I didn't cheat. That's also what I get for trying to be pithy when an entire book can and has been written on the subject.

Different classes have different Status Markers - it's not caring about what the neighbors think, it's what things the neighbors will care about. When most people in your neighborhood rent, you don't care so much about what the yard looks like, but *plenty* of working-class people care about what the inside looks like (and IME, will therefore Rent to Own furniture rather than do without, even if the cost is awful.)