Author Topic: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")  (Read 7524 times)

MissNancyPryor

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Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« on: January 26, 2019, 02:34:26 PM »
Just found this:

https://nypost.com/2019/01/26/americas-seniors-are-working-longer-only-to-watch-their-retirement-dreams-die/

It is your typical disaster declaration of how pensions are failing and how grandma will have to go be a Walmart greeter.  Familiar.

I am Gen X and have never believed there would be a pension for me, not even SS.  Mine was the first generation to see promises broken and pensions disappear.  I think we are a pretty cynical bunch as a broad, generalized statement.

Pensioners have been hosed by expecting big corporations to always be there and send that check.  A 64YO guy at my work was wandering around polling everyone on whether he should take the lump sum or do the monthly check.  I told him take the money and run, reminded him about the horror stories, emphasized he can pass the wealth to his kids that way.  He is sure nothing bad could happen at MegaCorpSucks and doesn't think he can handle managing the lump sum himself.  I told him about Vanguard, VTSAX, and dropped the subject.

4 months later he was going around asking again. 

All this is a good reminder to tell the youth that they had better damn well plan to row their own boat.  Read JLCollins.  Spend less than they make, save the difference, invest cheaply and hold it forever.  If SS is there it will be gravy.  Not all will be interested in early retirement but even an average-aged retirement is best self-funded. 

Advice to old and young:  Do not plan for someone else to take care of you--no matter what they promise. 
 


scottish

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2019, 03:21:23 PM »
Yes, I still remember my first job.   I had to choose from 1 of 3 tiers in the corporate pension plan.   My dad thought I was nuts choosing the lowest tier, even when I explained that if I somehow stayed with the company long enough to collect, the company probably wouldn't make it.

I was right both ways.   I left the company after about 9 years and it no longer exists as of 2005, another 9 years.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 04:52:39 AM »
Op nailed it on the head. Gotta plan for yourself and if somethings there with SS then gravy. Who knows how long before they will start changing the 401k rules and punishing the savers as there already has been talk of that.

chemistk

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 05:34:22 AM »
Just found this:

Advice to old and young:  Do not plan for someone else to take care of you--no matter what they promise. 
 

Timely for me, as my wife and I were having the discussion the other day: we've witnessed many older relatives set "expectations" for the younger generations on both sides of our family. We also worry at times that we may one day be asked to care for one side of our parents or become guardians to special needs siblings.

In our conversations, the number one thing we came up with is that we never ever expect anyone to take care of us - not the state, not a company, and especially not our children. I think it's important to remember (even while young) that those of us who have children should never even assume that they will take care of us. It would be a blessing if they did, but it would only ever be something we would want done out of love and free choice - not an obligation that causes major disruptions in their own lives.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 06:15:21 AM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

dude

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 06:24:28 AM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Not just rich, but mind-bogglingly, immorally, sickeningly rich. Beyond anyone's wildest dreams rich. And we see from Davos (check out the NYTimes piece from this weekend about how the Davos participants talk in public about mitigating the effects of AI on workers, but in private they talk about ramping up the use of AI and replacing 100% of workers for the fatter profit margins) that these insanely rich people don't care about other people at all, and thus really don't care for democracy and equality and all those other quaint notions that promote sharing the spoils of the earth's plunder with the proles. Good thing idiots around the world are buying into these elites' manufactured culture wars to divert peoples' attention away from the stuff the elites are doing that will have lasting consequences for their standard of living and overall well-being.

partgypsy

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 09:31:47 AM »
I agree with everything I've read in this thread. But as important as taking a lump sum, they need to INVEST that money. My mother took lump sums each time she retired from the state school system. Neither amounts were large (40K in one case, and either 20 or 25K the 2nd time). She was right in taking the lump sum, as the state underfunded the state pensions and are having a difficult time paying. However instead of investing she simply lived on the amount until it was gone. So now she is trying to live off around 500 a month social security, plus a lump sum from selling her house that she STILL has not invested. It's not looking good.

fattest_foot

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 10:10:15 AM »
I think because Enron happened right around when I was entering adulthood, it permanently soured me on having any kind of investment vehicle tied to the company you work for.

The idea that the company I work for would somehow outlive me seemed like a significant gamble. And afterward, everyone really took to heart the idea that your personal investments shouldn't be in the company you work for as it'd be a double whammy of losing your job and your retirement if anyone happened.

Even though I'll be eligible for federal government retirement, I have a hard time counting on that actually being there in 25 years.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 10:23:51 AM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Except, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.  People are not getting poorer as others get rich.  The disappearing middle class is a total myth and only based on income inequality, not lifestyle.  Not only is healthcare, education, and infrastructure not being eroded, it's being improved drastically.  Your lives are not only not being stolen, they are better than ever.  The ruling class and elites don't get votes by telling you how good your life is - keep that in mind.

mm1970

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 11:39:02 AM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Except, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.  People are not getting poorer as others get rich.  The disappearing middle class is a total myth and only based on income inequality, not lifestyle.  Not only is healthcare, education, and infrastructure not being eroded, it's being improved drastically.  Your lives are not only not being stolen, they are better than ever.  The ruling class and elites don't get votes by telling you how good your life is - keep that in mind.

So, then, how would you describe the decreasing funding going to public schools?  (Most in our area, but maybe not all.)
How would you describe stagnating salaries for the lower and middle classes?
How do you describe increasing cost of rent, and increasing out of pocket costs for health insurance?  Including, but not limited to, cost of premiums, copays, and deductibles?

Because those are actual real numbers.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2019, 12:12:26 PM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Except, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.  People are not getting poorer as others get rich.  The disappearing middle class is a total myth and only based on income inequality, not lifestyle.  Not only is healthcare, education, and infrastructure not being eroded, it's being improved drastically.  Your lives are not only not being stolen, they are better than ever.  The ruling class and elites don't get votes by telling you how good your life is - keep that in mind.

So, then, how would you describe the decreasing funding going to public schools?  (Most in our area, but maybe not all.)
How would you describe stagnating salaries for the lower and middle classes?
How do you describe increasing cost of rent, and increasing out of pocket costs for health insurance?  Including, but not limited to, cost of premiums, copays, and deductibles?

Because those are actual real numbers.

I don't know anything about schools in your area.  Around here they are funded by LOCAL taxes and budgets.  That has little or nothing to do with billionaires on the other side of the country.

Stagnating salaries, by its very definition, means these earners are not getting poorer.  Note that income stagnation accounts for inflation (increased health care, rent, etc).  But that is not the whole story.  What it doesn't account for is drastically reduced prices on many of the things we want to buy plus unmeasurable economic benefits.  Things that only rich people used to have - like smart phones, tvs, internet, etc... are commonly owned items with even the lowest income earners.  Plane tickets, travel - etc... is a fraction of what it cost decades ago as well.  Income may be stagnant (it's not) but we have more "things" that make our lives better.  In that sense alone, the lower/middle classes are doing better.

Of course, there is more to it.  The middle class is, in fact, shrinking.  But the UPPER middle class is growing.  People are moving from the middle class to the upper middle class, not downward.  Since the 70's, if you compare working class incomes (25 - 65) - incomes have exceeded inflation.  Far from stagnant.  Although I don't believe income is, in any way, a good measure of wealth - as I alluded to my previous paragraph.  If you are consuming more on the same income, are you really stagnant?  And how many economic benefits aren't even measured?  For example, the internet.  Or when you talk about lack of funding for education, yet even the lowest income households have internet access (subsidized) and access to a near infinite amount of educational resources.

So while Bill Gates may be a billionaire (and a horrible example as he is incredibly philanthropic) - has his invention/business not changed the world for the better?  Jeff Bezos, are people not able to get items they want and need cheaper without even needing transportation, bus passes, cars, etc.?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:15:27 PM by AlexMar »

By the River

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2019, 12:23:38 PM »
Another reason to tell your coworker to take the lump sum was another story in the preview box of stories.  A hospital VP died at his retirement party. One week after his retirement, his company had a party for him, he gave a speech, and then died. 

https://nypost.com/2019/01/15/ex-white-plains-hospital-exec-dies-suddenly-at-retirement-party/

saguaro

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 12:48:24 PM »
Yes, I still remember my first job.   I had to choose from 1 of 3 tiers in the corporate pension plan.   My dad thought I was nuts choosing the lowest tier, even when I explained that if I somehow stayed with the company long enough to collect, the company probably wouldn't make it.

I was right both ways.   I left the company after about 9 years and it no longer exists as of 2005, another 9 years.

This reminds me of when I left The Big Company.   You had the option of taking the traditional pension plan, payable beginning at age 55 or the portable plan which allowed you to take a lump sum when you left the company, at any age.

Though I was eligible to stay on the traditional plan, I took the portable.   People thought I was nuts as the traditional would pay out more.   But that was depending on whether you made it to 55 which was being made increasingly unlikely due to layoffs and divestitures and then there was the big question if the company survived that long, which it has but has shrunk down to nearly nothing.

When I left after 9 years, I took the lump sum as soon as I was able and rolled into an existing IRA just to get it out of there.   They stopped funding the pension plan a few years later. 

Bateaux

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 01:34:23 PM »
Just found this:

https://nypost.com/2019/01/26/americas-seniors-are-working-longer-only-to-watch-their-retirement-dreams-die/

It is your typical disaster declaration of how pensions are failing and how grandma will have to go be a Walmart greeter.  Familiar.

I am Gen X and have never believed there would be a pension for me, not even SS.  Mine was the first generation to see promises broken and pensions disappear.  I think we are a pretty cynical bunch as a broad, generalized statement.

Pensioners have been hosed by expecting big corporations to always be there and send that check.  A 64YO guy at my work was wandering around polling everyone on whether he should take the lump sum or do the monthly check.  I told him take the money and run, reminded him about the horror stories, emphasized he can pass the wealth to his kids that way.  He is sure nothing bad could happen at MegaCorpSucks and doesn't think he can handle managing the lump sum himself.  I told him about Vanguard, VTSAX, and dropped the subject.

4 months later he was going around asking again. 

All this is a good reminder to tell the youth that they had better damn well plan to row their own boat.  Read JLCollins.  Spend less than they make, save the difference, invest cheaply and hold it forever.  If SS is there it will be gravy.  Not all will be interested in early retirement but even an average-aged retirement is best self-funded. 

Advice to old and young:  Do not plan for someone else to take care of you--no matter what they promise. 
 

Wow! 

I read this, then read it again.  I had to fix a drink to celebrate your words.   I to am GenX.  I to, are faced with the decision of take the money and run.  I worked 20 years towards a golden parachute only to have it ripped away.  Build your own Fortress of Fortitude and tell the world to F-off.

Imma

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2019, 03:05:50 PM »
I think because Enron happened right around when I was entering adulthood, it permanently soured me on having any kind of investment vehicle tied to the company you work for.

The idea that the company I work for would somehow outlive me seemed like a significant gamble. And afterward, everyone really took to heart the idea that your personal investments shouldn't be in the company you work for as it'd be a double whammy of losing your job and your retirement if anyone happened.

Even though I'll be eligible for federal government retirement, I have a hard time counting on that actually being there in 25 years.

What I really don't understand is how in the US pensions are allowed to be controlled by the company that offers the pension scheme. That's just asking for disaster. I believe in the Enron scandal, the company paid out their employer match in Enron stock that the particpants weren't allowed to sell, and on top of that also promoted their employees investing the rest of their retirement money in Enron? I've also heard of people having to retire without a pension as a sort of punishment. That seems kind of harsh to me, even if they misbehaved.

In my country companies that offer pension schemes (still pretty common, although less common than 30 years ago) have to invest the pension contributions in a seperate legal entity. Large companies have their own pension funds, smaller companies group together in sector-wide funds (like a Banking or Steel pension fund). The money is immediately out of the companies' hands the second the contribution is made and the National Bank keeps an eye on the stability of the pension funds. Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best. The National Bank makes sure that all pension funds are worth at least 105% of the value of all the pension claims of all the participants (retirees, but also 20-somethings) and they use a very strict method of calculating that value - imo too strict, but that's another discussion. It's impossible to have underfunded pensions.

I've only just started working for a company that offers a pension scheme, but I feel very sure about the pension I'm going to get. A lot more sure than I feel about the state pension, which is dependent on the government not changing the rules. The pension fund is a private organization that I could potentially sue if they changed the rules mid-way. I think it's very important for the financial stability of a country to have a well-organized pension system that citizens can rely on  - even though personally I don't want to rely on the state pension and a pension fund, which is why I'm on this forum.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best.

This made me laugh from experience.  Here we have the Pension Board which is really just average Joe mechanic on the board.  Then the management company takes them out to really expensive dinners and tells them all how to manage the fund.... to the management companies... errr.... I mean the pensioners benefit.  And average Joe has no idea what is going on, only that he's getting a lobster dinner.  And Average Joe then thinks he's a financial expert.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2019, 06:18:33 PM »
Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best.

This made me laugh from experience.  Here we have the Pension Board which is really just average Joe mechanic on the board.  Then the management company takes them out to really expensive dinners and tells them all how to manage the fund.... to the management companies... errr.... I mean the pensioners benefit.  And average Joe has no idea what is going on, only that he's getting a lobster dinner.  And Average Joe then thinks he's a financial expert.

So,.....maybe all things really aren't that good.  I really think it starts with people who look out for number one and tell the rest of the world to F-off.  It seems the Europeans with their Socialism look out for each other a bit better.  I guess they are the ones with the improving healthcare, education and infrastructure.  I don't think these are the trends in the US.


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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2019, 06:47:50 PM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Except, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.  People are not getting poorer as others get rich.  The disappearing middle class is a total myth and only based on income inequality, not lifestyle.  Not only is healthcare, education, and infrastructure not being eroded, it's being improved drastically.  Your lives are not only not being stolen, they are better than ever.  The ruling class and elites don't get votes by telling you how good your life is - keep that in mind.

So, then, how would you describe the decreasing funding going to public schools?  (Most in our area, but maybe not all.)
How would you describe stagnating salaries for the lower and middle classes?
How do you describe increasing cost of rent, and increasing out of pocket costs for health insurance?  Including, but not limited to, cost of premiums, copays, and deductibles?

Because those are actual real numbers.

I don't know anything about schools in your area.  Around here they are funded by LOCAL taxes and budgets.  That has little or nothing to do with billionaires on the other side of the country.

Stagnating salaries, by its very definition, means these earners are not getting poorer.  Note that income stagnation accounts for inflation (increased health care, rent, etc).  But that is not the whole story.  What it doesn't account for is drastically reduced prices on many of the things we want to buy plus unmeasurable economic benefits.  Things that only rich people used to have - like smart phones, tvs, internet, etc... are commonly owned items with even the lowest income earners.  Plane tickets, travel - etc... is a fraction of what it cost decades ago as well.  Income may be stagnant (it's not) but we have more "things" that make our lives better.  In that sense alone, the lower/middle classes are doing better.

Of course, there is more to it.  The middle class is, in fact, shrinking.  But the UPPER middle class is growing.  People are moving from the middle class to the upper middle class, not downward.  Since the 70's, if you compare working class incomes (25 - 65) - incomes have exceeded inflation.  Far from stagnant.  Although I don't believe income is, in any way, a good measure of wealth - as I alluded to my previous paragraph.  If you are consuming more on the same income, are you really stagnant?  And how many economic benefits aren't even measured?  For example, the internet.  Or when you talk about lack of funding for education, yet even the lowest income households have internet access (subsidized) and access to a near infinite amount of educational resources.

So while Bill Gates may be a billionaire (and a horrible example as he is incredibly philanthropic) - has his invention/business not changed the world for the better?  Jeff Bezos, are people not able to get items they want and need cheaper without even needing transportation, bus passes, cars, etc.?

Very well put.

Back on the original topic, I watched it happen to my Grandfather - he had nearly all of his retirement savings in one stock, the employer he retired from. Plus the pension he was to receive in retirement...all that whittled away when the company filed for bankruptcy.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2019, 07:22:04 PM »
"Deregulation led to increased competition, and firms were pressured to cut costs. Many used this as an excuse to stop funding employee pensions."

It's kind of obvious that the basic "framework," the rules that are written for how our society is to function do not value the human animal and it is getting worse.  The rich get richer and some of the rest live in old cars.  Health care, retirement, education and infrastructure are all fundamental bases for a sound society.  These are being steadily eroded.  Our lives are being stolen from us to help make a few people rich.

But,.......Have a nice day.

Except, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.  People are not getting poorer as others get rich.  The disappearing middle class is a total myth and only based on income inequality, not lifestyle.  Not only is healthcare, education, and infrastructure not being eroded, it's being improved drastically.  Your lives are not only not being stolen, they are better than ever.  The ruling class and elites don't get votes by telling you how good your life is - keep that in mind.

So, then, how would you describe the decreasing funding going to public schools?  (Most in our area, but maybe not all.)
How would you describe stagnating salaries for the lower and middle classes?
How do you describe increasing cost of rent, and increasing out of pocket costs for health insurance?  Including, but not limited to, cost of premiums, copays, and deductibles?

Because those are actual real numbers.

I don't know anything about schools in your area.  Around here they are funded by LOCAL taxes and budgets.  That has little or nothing to do with billionaires on the other side of the country.

Stagnating salaries, by its very definition, means these earners are not getting poorer.  Note that income stagnation accounts for inflation (increased health care, rent, etc).  But that is not the whole story.  What it doesn't account for is drastically reduced prices on many of the things we want to buy plus unmeasurable economic benefits.  Things that only rich people used to have - like smart phones, tvs, internet, etc... are commonly owned items with even the lowest income earners.  Plane tickets, travel - etc... is a fraction of what it cost decades ago as well.  Income may be stagnant (it's not) but we have more "things" that make our lives better.  In that sense alone, the lower/middle classes are doing better.

Of course, there is more to it.  The middle class is, in fact, shrinking.  But the UPPER middle class is growing.  People are moving from the middle class to the upper middle class, not downward.  Since the 70's, if you compare working class incomes (25 - 65) - incomes have exceeded inflation.  Far from stagnant.  Although I don't believe income is, in any way, a good measure of wealth - as I alluded to my previous paragraph.  If you are consuming more on the same income, are you really stagnant?  And how many economic benefits aren't even measured?  For example, the internet.  Or when you talk about lack of funding for education, yet even the lowest income households have internet access (subsidized) and access to a near infinite amount of educational resources.

So while Bill Gates may be a billionaire (and a horrible example as he is incredibly philanthropic) - has his invention/business not changed the world for the better?  Jeff Bezos, are people not able to get items they want and need cheaper without even needing transportation, bus passes, cars, etc.?

Very well said. Thank you.

This is one of the things that is so great about the US. Anyone can be successful. Sure to be redicously wealthy a little luck or being at the right place at the right time doesn’t hurt, but at the end of the day just about everyone can succeed. This is the reason why so many immigrants come to the US. For a chance at the American Dream.

It’s just so easy to blame one’s misfortunates on a faceless entity that makes a bit kore money than you.

Back on topic: On the one hand a pension is great if the corporation sticks around. This is especially true since most people hate saving for their own retirement. But unfortunate businesses fail all the time and I would never want to rely on the success of a corporation for 20-40 years.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:24:52 PM by EnjoyIt »

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 08:48:24 PM »
In Australia, we pay everyone over 67 a pension, unless the person has a large sum (I think it's in the mid 6 figures) of assets. Note that the family home is not included as an asset for pension purposes!

So you have all these oldies retiring with a paid off home and then just using the state for subsistence. Fair enough if they're poor, but many could have saved up for their own passive income, but knew they didn't have to since they'd get the pension.

Meanwhile those who saved up properly and have a few million dollars in shares and property get nothing except to fund others' lifestyles.

Just one of the quirks of living in a country where the minority pay for the lifestyles of the majority, and frugality is not a known thing.

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 09:02:33 PM »
I've saved my whole life, too bad the young generation will lump us savers in with the rich. Get ready for the dividends and cap gains to be taxed at 50 percent. I can see why tho, too much greed.

libertarian4321

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2019, 09:59:00 PM »


This is one of the things that is so great about the US. Anyone can be successful. Sure to be redicously wealthy a little luck or being at the right place at the right time doesn’t hurt, but at the end of the day just about everyone can succeed. This is the reason why so many immigrants come to the US. For a chance at the American Dream.

[/quote]

I'm always fascinated about how bad Americans think they have it, just because the guy down the street has (or, at least, appears to have) more money and "stuff" than they do. 

Yet most of the world wishes they had it so "bad."

My wife is one of those immigrants who was grateful she was allowed to emigrate to the USA, where she could work hard and succeed.  Unlike so many native-born Americans who whine constantly because someone else has more, she's happy to have had the opportunity to live a good life.

How does the fact that Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos have billions (and I don't) make my life "bad" just because I have far less?  I've never understood the mindset that if someone else has more than I do, life is unfair/horrible and the "government should do something about it."

Whether Bill Gates has 1 Billion, 80 Billion, or 800 Billion doesn't make a damned bit of difference in my life.




accolay

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2019, 10:01:54 PM »
I don't know anything about schools in your area.  Around here they are funded by LOCAL taxes and budgets.  That has little or nothing to do with billionaires on the other side of the country.
"I'd like to have an argument"

Word? I'd like to see where you live- chances are there is a bit of state and even federal funding in there (unless you live in a really rich area)- but forget that argument (Fed funding is mostly for the Poors anyway).

Ever heard of "Citizen's United"? How about the Koch brothers?

Billionaire fuckers like that influence state elections around the country with their cash to get their anti-tax, anti-government candidates elected and it all trickles down to, well, everything: business regulations, environmental regs, higher ed funds, local school funding (So the donks who live out in the sticks around my state get to have slim political majorities to dictate the cake the majority eats.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 02:23:05 AM »
I think because Enron happened right around when I was entering adulthood, it permanently soured me on having any kind of investment vehicle tied to the company you work for.

The idea that the company I work for would somehow outlive me seemed like a significant gamble. And afterward, everyone really took to heart the idea that your personal investments shouldn't be in the company you work for as it'd be a double whammy of losing your job and your retirement if anyone happened.

Even though I'll be eligible for federal government retirement, I have a hard time counting on that actually being there in 25 years.

What I really don't understand is how in the US pensions are allowed to be controlled by the company that offers the pension scheme. That's just asking for disaster. I believe in the Enron scandal, the company paid out their employer match in Enron stock that the particpants weren't allowed to sell, and on top of that also promoted their employees investing the rest of their retirement money in Enron? I've also heard of people having to retire without a pension as a sort of punishment. That seems kind of harsh to me, even if they misbehaved.

In my country companies that offer pension schemes (still pretty common, although less common than 30 years ago) have to invest the pension contributions in a seperate legal entity. Large companies have their own pension funds, smaller companies group together in sector-wide funds (like a Banking or Steel pension fund). The money is immediately out of the companies' hands the second the contribution is made and the National Bank keeps an eye on the stability of the pension funds. Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best. The National Bank makes sure that all pension funds are worth at least 105% of the value of all the pension claims of all the participants (retirees, but also 20-somethings) and they use a very strict method of calculating that value - imo too strict, but that's another discussion. It's impossible to have underfunded pensions.

I've only just started working for a company that offers a pension scheme, but I feel very sure about the pension I'm going to get. A lot more sure than I feel about the state pension, which is dependent on the government not changing the rules. The pension fund is a private organization that I could potentially sue if they changed the rules mid-way. I think it's very important for the financial stability of a country to have a well-organized pension system that citizens can rely on  - even though personally I don't want to rely on the state pension and a pension fund, which is why I'm on this forum.

Here in Norway it is the same system as Imma pensions. Companies can since a few years have to offer pensions in one of the independent pension funds, that are supposed to be stable. If you leave, you cannot not cash in the lump sum, but you may transfer it to another pension fund of your own choice. You may also decide what risk kind of profile you want to use for your pension: 100%, 50% stock or even less stock. Usually you can choose from 3 predefined risk profiles.
I have a little pension in such a fund and I feel secure about it. But it would only cover a month of expenses per year.

My big pot of pension is in the stately pension fund. Norway is one of the very few states in the world with billions in savings, instead of debt. So I think it is pretty secure. But they do change the rules all the time, so it will not be as high as it originally was supposed to be.
We also have a stately basic pension, maybe compared to American SS and Dutch AOW. They have actually put money aside in my name. But the pay out is again due to rules not changing too much.
So the OP has a very valid point anyway.

Our plans depend on these pensions.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 05:25:38 AM »
I don't know anything about schools in your area.  Around here they are funded by LOCAL taxes and budgets.  That has little or nothing to do with billionaires on the other side of the country.
"I'd like to have an argument"

Word? I'd like to see where you live- chances are there is a bit of state and even federal funding in there (unless you live in a really rich area)- but forget that argument (Fed funding is mostly for the Poors anyway).

Ever heard of "Citizen's United"? How about the Koch brothers?

Billionaire fuckers like that influence state elections around the country with their cash to get their anti-tax, anti-government candidates elected and it all trickles down to, well, everything: business regulations, environmental regs, higher ed funds, local school funding (So the donks who live out in the sticks around my state get to have slim political majorities to dictate the cake the majority eats.

The "donks who live out in the sticks" says enough about you.  I wouldn't even bother discussing this with you.  You are so far removed from reality, practically a walking, talking stereotype.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 05:30:04 AM »
Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best.

This made me laugh from experience.  Here we have the Pension Board which is really just average Joe mechanic on the board.  Then the management company takes them out to really expensive dinners and tells them all how to manage the fund.... to the management companies... errr.... I mean the pensioners benefit.  And average Joe has no idea what is going on, only that he's getting a lobster dinner.  And Average Joe then thinks he's a financial expert.

So,.....maybe all things really aren't that good.  I really think it starts with people who look out for number one and tell the rest of the world to F-off.  It seems the Europeans with their Socialism look out for each other a bit better.  I guess they are the ones with the improving healthcare, education and infrastructure.  I don't think these are the trends in the US.

Wages in the US have outpaced those in Europe.  As someone who has a large amount of family in the supposed "happiest country on earth" - I can tell you it's FAR from "happy" and absolutely not better than the US.  Their healthcare is not better.  Infrastructure generally is, but that's because the entire country is smaller than Houston - it's not hard to maintain roads when you have no land to cover.  In the larger Euro countries, I often find the roads and infrastructure on par with the US, if not worse.

They definitely do look out for each other more.  That's a fair statement.  But I would counter it "at what cost."  Looking out for each other and that culture has been used and abused by politicians to essentially raid more than half of a mans earnings.  Taxes are absolutely crushing over there and that's not an overstatement.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2019, 05:35:36 AM »
I think because Enron happened right around when I was entering adulthood, it permanently soured me on having any kind of investment vehicle tied to the company you work for.

The idea that the company I work for would somehow outlive me seemed like a significant gamble. And afterward, everyone really took to heart the idea that your personal investments shouldn't be in the company you work for as it'd be a double whammy of losing your job and your retirement if anyone happened.

Even though I'll be eligible for federal government retirement, I have a hard time counting on that actually being there in 25 years.

What I really don't understand is how in the US pensions are allowed to be controlled by the company that offers the pension scheme. That's just asking for disaster. I believe in the Enron scandal, the company paid out their employer match in Enron stock that the particpants weren't allowed to sell, and on top of that also promoted their employees investing the rest of their retirement money in Enron? I've also heard of people having to retire without a pension as a sort of punishment. That seems kind of harsh to me, even if they misbehaved.

In my country companies that offer pension schemes (still pretty common, although less common than 30 years ago) have to invest the pension contributions in a seperate legal entity. Large companies have their own pension funds, smaller companies group together in sector-wide funds (like a Banking or Steel pension fund). The money is immediately out of the companies' hands the second the contribution is made and the National Bank keeps an eye on the stability of the pension funds. Participants generally have little to say about how the money is invested, and honestly I think that for the Average Joe that's probably the best. The National Bank makes sure that all pension funds are worth at least 105% of the value of all the pension claims of all the participants (retirees, but also 20-somethings) and they use a very strict method of calculating that value - imo too strict, but that's another discussion. It's impossible to have underfunded pensions.

I've only just started working for a company that offers a pension scheme, but I feel very sure about the pension I'm going to get. A lot more sure than I feel about the state pension, which is dependent on the government not changing the rules. The pension fund is a private organization that I could potentially sue if they changed the rules mid-way. I think it's very important for the financial stability of a country to have a well-organized pension system that citizens can rely on  - even though personally I don't want to rely on the state pension and a pension fund, which is why I'm on this forum.

Here in Norway it is the same system as Imma pensions. Companies can since a few years have to offer pensions in one of the independent pension funds, that are supposed to be stable. If you leave, you cannot not cash in the lump sum, but you may transfer it to another pension fund of your own choice. You may also decide what risk kind of profile you want to use for your pension: 100%, 50% stock or even less stock. Usually you can choose from 3 predefined risk profiles.
I have a little pension in such a fund and I feel secure about it. But it would only cover a month of expenses per year.

My big pot of pension is in the stately pension fund. Norway is one of the very few states in the world with billions in savings, instead of debt. So I think it is pretty secure. But they do change the rules all the time, so it will not be as high as it originally was supposed to be.
We also have a stately basic pension, maybe compared to American SS and Dutch AOW. They have actually put money aside in my name. But the pay out is again due to rules not changing too much.
So the OP has a very valid point anyway.

Our plans depend on these pensions.

Norway is also in a very unique position with their massive oil revenues that they seem to have done a pretty good job managing.  While at the same time selling the idea of not using oil IN Norway (highest electric car ownership).  Most countries aren't able to replicate this.  Of course, they stole the oil from Denmark... but that's another story :)

accolay

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2019, 10:35:55 AM »
The "donks who live out in the sticks" says enough about you.  I wouldn't even bother discussing this with you.  You are so far removed from reality, practically a walking, talking stereotype.
Oh, ok.

Back to the topic... I am involved in a pension system at work. My state does better than some with it's pensions, but it's still only 80% funded, which is about an 18 billion shortfall. What it means to me is that people my age who somehow work in the system until retirement who aren't saving extra to at least up to what the company match is are going to be really screwed (an extra 7.5%) And they will, because they aren't paying attention. I feel kinda bad for them when they get the wake up call.

But I also want to facepunch the closer to retirement age guy giving me savings advice, as if what he's doing is going to work for me since he's definitely getting his full pension and SS. I wish I could opt out of the pension and put the money somewhere else, but what's 6.5% among friends, right?

Same as others, if there is anything left for me (pension or SS) when I get to that age it'll be frosting on the cake. Hopefully I can get out at least what I've put in. But please shoot me if I'm still working at 65 because I need the job to survive.

mm1970

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2019, 11:46:23 AM »
Quote
Very well said. Thank you.

This is one of the things that is so great about the US. Anyone can be successful. Sure to be redicously wealthy a little luck or being at the right place at the right time doesn’t hurt, but at the end of the day just about everyone can succeed. This is the reason why so many immigrants come to the US. For a chance at the American Dream.

It’s just so easy to blame one’s misfortunates on a faceless entity that makes a bit kore money than you.

Back on topic: On the one hand a pension is great if the corporation sticks around. This is especially true since most people hate saving for their own retirement. But unfortunate businesses fail all the time and I would never want to rely on the success of a corporation for 20-40 years.

Ah, the absolutes, or near absolutes.  My favorites!  I get that people always like absolutes (on either side of the aisle).  Because it's simple.  It's easy.  No hard work to be done!  No complicated issues to discuss!  But it does nothing to help move us forward.

For the record...in response to the original thing you quoted (which I did not quote here), our schools are nearly fully funded by state, not local taxes.  There are two methods of funding in my state - "Basic Aid" (bad name, describing the situation where the amount going to schools from property taxes exceeds the amount the school would get per pupil using the other "LCFF" (Local Control Funding Formula) method (a $ per student calculator).

Certain local school districts are "Basic Aid" (in fact ours was, for 9 months), but ours is not - it is funded by LCFF.

Thing is, as accolay already mentioned - if you ignore the facts about billionaires using their money to lobby for laws that benefit them (which, I get it - it's COMPLICATED) - then you are part of the problem.  The economy and the success of individuals in an economy has many moving parts that all work together. 
- Billionaire owners lobbying for laws that benefit them
- Laws that take money from public schools for private schools (when private schools are able to pick and choose their students, and public schools are not. )  Some people really don't care about this, because they are thinking "I don't want my kids going to school with the poors", but a lot of people just don't even think about special needs and disabled students.  Who cost a LOT but also deserve a damned education.
- Cost of living in particular areas.  Housing costs have outpaced income in many areas of the country and many job sectors have stagnated salaries.  You can say you don't care, but the person actually DOING the work who is at the mercy of whatever rents are - well, they probably care.
- Of course the tax laws are involved in housing costs.

Now let's get to the "anyone can do it".  People here (some of you, anyway), seem to dislike the "well, people just get picky and come up with this reason or that reason why this ONE PERSON can't succeed.)  The world is full of individuals.  That ONE PERSON is actually millions of people, when it boils right down to it.  Whether it's chronic illness, disability, inability to work due to fetal alcohol syndrome, accident/ injury, mental illness, jail time, poverty, gangs - there are many reasons why people have a difficult time succeeding.  Just look at the people who are "chronic users of welfare" - well, why do some people pull themselves out, and others do not?

I mean, I even have a relative (through marriage) who falls into that category.  Why did he pull himself out but not his sister?  Well, for one thing, when he was born and hitting the working world - he's a white male.  In a rural area, there's a lot more economic upside for a male with a HS diploma than a female.  Why do some people "work the system"?  Is it because that's all they know?  Or it's easy?  Or there is no other way out?

Just look at the repeat offenders who end up in jail over and over.  Why is that?  Well, how easy is it to get hired if you were a felon?  How easy is it to feed your kid if you just got out of jail?  "$2 a Day, Living on Almost Nothing In America" was very eye opening there - as they profiled a woman who went to jail for writing bad checks.  Well, when she got out, she can't find a job and is not eligible for food stamps...because she was in jail.  What kind of system is that?  Well, she's poor and then she stays poor.

In the end, the answer has to be somewhere in the middle.  We have a duty to look after our fellow citizens and to set up a system in which people can succeed - despite their birth, their color, their upbringing.  Our fellow citizens have a duty to be willing to work for it  - WHEN POSSIBLE.   AND we shouldn't expect it to take heroics to have a roof, and food, and clothing.  "I worked 80 hours a week!"  Well, fuck that, so did serfs.  People fought for shorter work weeks for a reason.

But any blanket statement about "anybody can do it" is just...well, flat out wrong and it takes away from your message if you refuse to look into the details about how things are interrelated.  Maybe it means you sleep better at night.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2019, 12:00:08 PM »

- SNIP -

In the end, the answer has to be somewhere in the middle.  We have a duty to look after our fellow citizens and to set up a system in which people can succeed - despite their birth, their color, their upbringing.  Our fellow citizens have a duty to be willing to work for it  - WHEN POSSIBLE.   AND we shouldn't expect it to take heroics to have a roof, and food, and clothing.  "I worked 80 hours a week!"  Well, fuck that, so did serfs.  People fought for shorter work weeks for a reason.

But any blanket statement about "anybody can do it" is just...well, flat out wrong and it takes away from your message if you refuse to look into the details about how things are interrelated.  Maybe it means you sleep better at night.

Very well said.  Not a vision of fantasy - just reality

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2019, 12:13:39 PM »
mm1970, that's a lot of info to take in, but I'll address a couple of things.

I can only speak of my own State (Florida).  Taking money from public schools and giving to private has pissed off a lot of union and teacher types, but it's been incredibly successful.  I was engaged to a teacher who worked in a school in probably the most poverty stricken area in South Florida.  The school was quite nice, actually.  She would say it's better funded than the schools in the richer neighborhoods.  Now that my own kids are in elementary school, I'd say they "appear" to be about the same as far as quality of the building, classrooms, computer labs, etc.  So the idea that the poor kids are getting whacked by school funding just doesn't ring true.  Anyways, back to funding going private... we have Charter schools which are run like public schools but privately owned.  They somewhat compete with the public schools but not really.  They certainly help alleviate over crowding.  They are run much more efficiently, too.  I know because that ex, when we moved, started working at a charter school!  Either way, the schools are doing a lot of good.  Some better than others.  School choice is a big right-wing talking point.  Which seems backwards, right?  Letting poor people go to rich people schools?  I don't want to get overly political, but that is the reality.  But the truth is the complaints about taking public money and pushing it private in education is more of a union control thing that has more to do with teacher pay (they should be paid more) then actually about educating the kids.

I see cost of living differently than you.  Rents can only be as high as people can afford to pay. And if all the rents are high, then obviously a majority of the people in that area are earning a great living and can pay it.  This doesn't really happen overnight. Cost of living has more to do with changing industries, gentrification, etc.  In which case, if you can't afford the area anymore, move somewhere more fitting.  MMM suggests moving all the time based on economics.  It shouldn't be a scary or foreign concept.

Your comments about "anyone can do it" are highly elitist and insulting to people of color and women.  I couldn't imagine going around viewing minorities and women as inferior and in such need of extra assistance from the white man.  They are perpetual victims according to your words.  What an awful way to view your fellow humans. "Anyone can do it" is a statement from someone who recognizes true equality.  "Anyone can do it" is words from someone who doesn't look at gender and skin color, but instead believes everyone is equal and capable.

mbl

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2019, 01:13:04 PM »
Within the past 50 years the US has steadily increased it's social welfare spending.
Expanding all programs addressing food, healthcare, housing etc.
But, the poverty levels haven't changed much.

This is in addition to the billions of dollars in philanthropy that are given to US charities each
year that address a portion of the social need in our country.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2019, 03:16:24 PM »
Within the past 50 years the US has steadily increased it's social welfare spending.
Expanding all programs addressing food, healthcare, housing etc.
But, the poverty levels haven't changed much.

This is in addition to the billions of dollars in philanthropy that are given to US charities each
year that address a portion of the social need in our country.

That's correct.  It's just like school funding.  The idea that you can just keep throwing money at it will make it better yet we are getting destroyed by kids in Indian villages with virtually no school funding at all.  It's not addressing the underlying issues and totally missing the point.

Cassie

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2019, 04:27:20 PM »
Pensions and SS were only meant to be part of a 3 legged retirement stool.  There will always be people that won’t be able to save due to unfortunate circumstances.  Our COL is way beyond many people’s wages here and our homeless population is surging among the working poor and seniors. Poor people can’t afford to move.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2019, 05:37:09 PM »
Poor people can’t afford to move.

They do it every day.  I'd even go as far to suggest poor people often move the most.

Just Joe

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2019, 07:12:16 PM »
That's correct.  It's just like school funding.  The idea that you can just keep throwing money at it will make it better yet we are getting destroyed by kids in Indian villages with virtually no school funding at all.

Desperation is quite a motivator...

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2019, 08:10:12 PM »
That's correct.  It's just like school funding.  The idea that you can just keep throwing money at it will make it better yet we are getting destroyed by kids in Indian villages with virtually no school funding at all.

Desperation is quite a motivator...

Sometimes yes and sometimes it should be:

Henry David Thoreau:

“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things..”

I do believe as was said poor people are more liable to migrate.  That doesn't make it easy.  Most of us live in a country built by poor immigrants.

Lightfoot

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2019, 08:52:12 PM »
Back to topic - As with any amount of assets there is value in diversifying, this includes your pension!

If the old wandering man from the first post has no other retirement then yes he should totally take the lump sum and Vanguard it. But if he has some post tax savings, a IRA, a paid off home. Then why not leave it in the pension plan?

I myself (30s) just last year joined a large company and was shocked that they still offered a pension. Its actually got me excited as it'll be another source of retirement income once vest into it and get to 55-65 (the age range you can start taking it). But its not my sole source of retirement money. I have my 401k - pre and post tax, my IRA, SS (one can hope), and other non retirement savings investments.

Also how my company's pension plan works is, when you are ready to take distributions, they purchase an annuity for you, so the company could fold the day after, or they could not fund the plan any more, and it wouldn't matter to anyone taking distributions.

I also think its dumb to buy stock in the company one works for, (unless its part of your compensation) as I don't see that diversifying as your job and investment is at the same risk of loss if the company folds. My company has this culture where people buy company stock, to the point that the ticker is displayed on our lobby tvs and features prominently on the home page of the intranet. This is so odd to me.

Cassie

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2019, 09:04:36 PM »
Our 2 small pensions equals 40k/year with a raise every year. Our lump sums 40k total so very stupid to take the lump sum. 

EnjoyIt

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2019, 09:21:05 PM »
Quote
Very well said. Thank you.

This is one of the things that is so great about the US. Anyone can be successful. Sure to be redicously wealthy a little luck or being at the right place at the right time doesn’t hurt, but at the end of the day just about everyone can succeed. This is the reason why so many immigrants come to the US. For a chance at the American Dream.

It’s just so easy to blame one’s misfortunates on a faceless entity that makes a bit kore money than you.

Back on topic: On the one hand a pension is great if the corporation sticks around. This is especially true since most people hate saving for their own retirement. But unfortunate businesses fail all the time and I would never want to rely on the success of a corporation for 20-40 years.

Ah, the absolutes, or near absolutes.  My favorites!  I get that people always like absolutes (on either side of the aisle).  Because it's simple.  It's easy.  No hard work to be done!  No complicated issues to discuss!  But it does nothing to help move us forward.

For the record...in response to the original thing you quoted (which I did not quote here), our schools are nearly fully funded by state, not local taxes.  There are two methods of funding in my state - "Basic Aid" (bad name, describing the situation where the amount going to schools from property taxes exceeds the amount the school would get per pupil using the other "LCFF" (Local Control Funding Formula) method (a $ per student calculator).

Certain local school districts are "Basic Aid" (in fact ours was, for 9 months), but ours is not - it is funded by LCFF.

Thing is, as accolay already mentioned - if you ignore the facts about billionaires using their money to lobby for laws that benefit them (which, I get it - it's COMPLICATED) - then you are part of the problem.  The economy and the success of individuals in an economy has many moving parts that all work together. 
- Billionaire owners lobbying for laws that benefit them
- Laws that take money from public schools for private schools (when private schools are able to pick and choose their students, and public schools are not. )  Some people really don't care about this, because they are thinking "I don't want my kids going to school with the poors", but a lot of people just don't even think about special needs and disabled students.  Who cost a LOT but also deserve a damned education.
- Cost of living in particular areas.  Housing costs have outpaced income in many areas of the country and many job sectors have stagnated salaries.  You can say you don't care, but the person actually DOING the work who is at the mercy of whatever rents are - well, they probably care.
- Of course the tax laws are involved in housing costs.

Now let's get to the "anyone can do it".  People here (some of you, anyway), seem to dislike the "well, people just get picky and come up with this reason or that reason why this ONE PERSON can't succeed.)  The world is full of individuals.  That ONE PERSON is actually millions of people, when it boils right down to it.  Whether it's chronic illness, disability, inability to work due to fetal alcohol syndrome, accident/ injury, mental illness, jail time, poverty, gangs - there are many reasons why people have a difficult time succeeding.  Just look at the people who are "chronic users of welfare" - well, why do some people pull themselves out, and others do not?

I mean, I even have a relative (through marriage) who falls into that category.  Why did he pull himself out but not his sister?  Well, for one thing, when he was born and hitting the working world - he's a white male.  In a rural area, there's a lot more economic upside for a male with a HS diploma than a female.  Why do some people "work the system"?  Is it because that's all they know?  Or it's easy?  Or there is no other way out?

Just look at the repeat offenders who end up in jail over and over.  Why is that?  Well, how easy is it to get hired if you were a felon?  How easy is it to feed your kid if you just got out of jail?  "$2 a Day, Living on Almost Nothing In America" was very eye opening there - as they profiled a woman who went to jail for writing bad checks.  Well, when she got out, she can't find a job and is not eligible for food stamps...because she was in jail.  What kind of system is that?  Well, she's poor and then she stays poor.

In the end, the answer has to be somewhere in the middle.  We have a duty to look after our fellow citizens and to set up a system in which people can succeed - despite their birth, their color, their upbringing.  Our fellow citizens have a duty to be willing to work for it  - WHEN POSSIBLE.   AND we shouldn't expect it to take heroics to have a roof, and food, and clothing.  "I worked 80 hours a week!"  Well, fuck that, so did serfs.  People fought for shorter work weeks for a reason.

But any blanket statement about "anybody can do it" is just...well, flat out wrong and it takes away from your message if you refuse to look into the details about how things are interrelated.  Maybe it means you sleep better at night.

I never said that some people will not find it harder to be successful, but anyone with willingness and ability has the potential to have a successful life.  People from all walks of life from all over the world come to the US and out succeed the native Americans. Most come to the US practically broke. It doesn’t matter if they are from Scandinavia, Nigeria, India, or Mexico, via hard work they create a better life for themselves.

Yes, if you screwed up your life and ended up in prison it will be harder. Yes if you have a learning disability it will be harder. Yes if you are born to drug addict parents it will be harder. But it is still possible to improve one’s life with hard work and determination. I see some people consider hard work as having two jobs while others consider hard work as having one job and then going back to school to improve their income potential. Just about anyone can do this if they are willing to put in the effort. Again, sure past choices, genetics, and other circumstances can make it much more difficult but it is still possible.

America is indeed the “Land of Opportunity.”

It is just so easy to blame the family that makes a little more.

As for rich people affecting politics, I hate it also. But that alone is not the reason to denounce anyone who makes more money.

I also think its dumb to buy stock in the company one works for, (unless its part of your compensation) as I don't see that diversifying as your job and investment is at the same risk of loss if the company folds. My company has this culture where people buy company stock, to the point that the ticker is displayed on our lobby tvs and features prominently on the home page of the intranet. This is so odd to me.

I agree with you. Though it makes sense for a company to want it’s employees to own lots of company stock. It makes them invested into the success of the company and good for the company’s culture.

Lightfoot

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2019, 09:32:42 PM »

I also think its dumb to buy stock in the company one works for, (unless its part of your compensation) as I don't see that diversifying as your job and investment is at the same risk of loss if the company folds. My company has this culture where people buy company stock, to the point that the ticker is displayed on our lobby tvs and features prominently on the home page of the intranet. This is so odd to me.

I agree with you. Though it makes sense for a company to want it’s employees to own lots of company stock. It makes them invested into the success of the company and good for the company’s culture.

Thats benefits the company! Not me! And yes I like the culture it creates but this company and any other would have no issue laying off people when the need is there. So I'm looking out for myself first, just as the company is looking out for itself first.


Linea_Norway

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2019, 12:13:36 AM »

I also think its dumb to buy stock in the company one works for, (unless its part of your compensation) as I don't see that diversifying as your job and investment is at the same risk of loss if the company folds. My company has this culture where people buy company stock, to the point that the ticker is displayed on our lobby tvs and features prominently on the home page of the intranet. This is so odd to me.

I agree with you. Though it makes sense for a company to want it’s employees to own lots of company stock. It makes them invested into the success of the company and good for the company’s culture.

Thats benefits the company! Not me! And yes I like the culture it creates but this company and any other would have no issue laying off people when the need is there. So I'm looking out for myself first, just as the company is looking out for itself first.

My DH has several times bought stock in his company. The stocks were available for a below market price and could only be traded with other employees. We knew it was not very smart to have 2 eggs in the same basket, but we only invested a small sum in it, and not his pension! In all cases he made good profit when he quit his job and had to sell them. The stocks typically paid out 8-10% dividend each year.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2019, 05:27:32 AM »
You know if things are really going well and we are surrounded by opportunity:

Shouldn't you be able to have faith that the company you work for will grow and prosper and shouldn't you feel good about investing in the place you work?

If we expect times to get better, why can't companies offer pensions?

Shouldn't we have faith that our government will have the social safety net of Social Security?

Sadly, I think the shining beacon on the hill, has some bulbs burnt out.

AlexMar

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2019, 05:54:00 AM »
I also think its dumb to buy stock in the company one works for, (unless its part of your compensation) as I don't see that diversifying as your job and investment is at the same risk of loss if the company folds. My company has this culture where people buy company stock, to the point that the ticker is displayed on our lobby tvs and features prominently on the home page of the intranet. This is so odd to me.

I can think of exceptions to this.  For example, if you worked for Publix.  I'd buy as much stock as they would let me.

Just Joe

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2019, 07:37:54 AM »
You know if things are really going well and we are surrounded by opportunity:

Shouldn't you be able to have faith that the company you work for will grow and prosper and shouldn't you feel good about investing in the place you work?

If we expect times to get better, why can't companies offer pensions?

Shouldn't we have faith that our government will have the social safety net of Social Security?

Sadly, I think the shining beacon on the hill, has some bulbs burnt out.

I want to have faith in various companies lasting a century or more but over the past 25 years we have seen very successful companies stumble around - Blackberry, Nokia, GM to pick three. I read an article last night that claims Apple may be too dependent on $1K+ smart phones and this might endanger their long term profitability. Microsoft doesn't have a guaranteed cash cow either as their OS is good but with Apple OS and FREE Linux - Microsoft really needs several product lines to have a profitable future. MS Office is really good but Libreoffice/Calligra/others are perfectly fine for the average person. Linux rules the smart phone market (Android) and the server markets. Amazon is knocking on WalMart's door. Sears is gone from my part of the country.

Heck, I'd say that the USA as a whole is stumbling a little from time to time with Asia (China, Japan, others) competing hard. The world sent their factories to China and thus taught China how to do everything, and now China IS doing everything. All in the name of short term profits. China is far more than cheap tools at Harbor Freight.

dogboyslim

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2019, 08:39:02 AM »
I see lots of folks pining for the DB pension.  Why?  These are a terrible deal for the modern worker.  It limits your mobility and ties your future success to the future success of the company that employs you.  The DC plans are a much better deal because you accrue the balance and can take it with you when you move to your next opportunity.  When I joined my current employer they had just done away with their DB plan (for new employees).  I was thrilled!  Now I don't have to work here for 20 years in order to get a nice retirement, and while my company is financially sound, I'm in an industry where I'm not sure it will be sound in 20 years.  The DC plan means that after I'm vested in the company contributions, I can walk out the door at any time and take the balance with me.  I'm genuinely curious why so many people see this as a bad thing.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2019, 09:42:11 AM »
I see lots of folks pining for the DB pension.  Why?  These are a terrible deal for the modern worker.  It limits your mobility and ties your future success to the future success of the company that employs you.  The DC plans are a much better deal because you accrue the balance and can take it with you when you move to your next opportunity.  When I joined my current employer they had just done away with their DB plan (for new employees).  I was thrilled!  Now I don't have to work here for 20 years in order to get a nice retirement, and while my company is financially sound, I'm in an industry where I'm not sure it will be sound in 20 years.  The DC plan means that after I'm vested in the company contributions, I can walk out the door at any time and take the balance with me.  I'm genuinely curious why so many people see this as a bad thing.

Despite my comment above, I sort of see it both ways.  I will have a tiny pension coming to me when I get to 65.  I like that because it's guaranteed.  You don't need to trouble yourself with the BS of investing.  You just live your life.  I saw that when I grew up.  My dad had no retirement (pension or savings)  but many of the neighbors did.  They lived better.

The other way I see it is akin to yours.  The vast amount of my retirement will come from my savings.  I could turn it into a pension with the purchase of an annuity, but then the money would be gone.  I've added to it by myself and from company contributions from the many places I've worked.  That money is mine.  It is not there in a corporate pension fund to be robbed via some financial shenanigans.

One of the things I don't like about it is how it is done.  When I was younger, they gathered a number of new hires into a big room and gave us these folders with various investment choices.  I didn't understand the choices at the time and the HR people certainly didn't either.  Despite that the money has grown.  It is a good thing there are now websites like this one to help obtain financial acumen.  (Websites didn't exist then, vacuum tubes still had some uses.) 

I'm sure there are still many typical retirees who don't know what to do with cash disbursements they receive at the end of their working days.  Pensions may be a better choice for many of those people.


MissNancyPryor

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2019, 07:22:09 AM »
UPDATE!! 

Following up on the fellow I mentioned in the beginning here, the one wondering once again about whether to cash out his pension or take the monthly payment -  he had also asked me at the time about such-and-such financial advisors who would manage his money for "just 2%" and whether I thought that was a good deal, etc.  He was essentially polling the entire office and was just as lost as he could be about what to do and was very fearful.  He was always walking around sweaty and red-faced with work stress and especially when talking about his next steps.   

As I had done the first time he came around I pointed him to JLCollins, told him about VTSAX, said in my humble opinion he should take the lump and plow everything into these low cost funds and get some peace. 

HE DID IT!

He came back around this week to tell me he got Jim's book and had just done a massive conversion into Vanguard and the index.  He is going to retire this June and take the lump.  He looked physically relieved and is finally ready to let his long career go and try to get healthy with the burden of the stressful job removed.  He was extremely thankful.  He lost both of his very elderly parents in the last 6 months and there will be their estate to settle and he is feeling like he can finally push the retirement button with complete confidence because he is in control and is not getting scammed by some slick financial guru.  He was visibly relieved in both body and spirit.     

What a turnaround.  It feels really good to see him embrace the Simple Path to Wealth.   

DadJokes

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2019, 07:38:05 AM »
That's nice- hopefully he can be disciplined enough to weather any turbulence in the market without pulling everything out.

pecunia

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Re: Teach the children, (and tell the typical retiree to "lump it")
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM »
Just wondering - Did it make you feel good too as you helped him?  You must have done a good job helping him filter through the vast amount of BS to help him reach his conclusion.