Poll

How do you feel about paying taxes?

I hate paying taxes.   They are legalized robbery.
22 (12.6%)
Taxes are a necessary evil.   The government is often wasteful, but there's no way to avoid that.
87 (49.7%)
Taxes are generally for the best.   The government occasionally wastes money, but it's not a big problem.
61 (34.9%)
The government makes better use of my tax dollars than I ever could.   I would be happy to pay more taxes.
5 (2.9%)

Total Members Voted: 171

Author Topic: Taxation  (Read 18638 times)

beltim

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2015, 03:52:41 PM »
Same thing with schools. We pay teachers crap and treat them like crap in the poorer areas especially. We aren't going to attract and retain the best teachers that way. And pay for performance is harder than it seems because the teachers really have very little control over the students' performance. A lot of that is determined by the parents and the environment the kid has at home. Studies show that kids from stressful home situations have a harder time learning anything because their brains are less able to spend the long, focused time required to have things sink in. Instead, they are in hyper-alert mode.

Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

Agree on the parental and home involvement impacting the outcome.
+1  In our state regardless if it is rural or city, teachers are among the highest compensated group there is.   I would say in rural areas they are often the top paid people.   The thing is they work part time for 25 years but are paid for up to 75 years.   It is a great gig.   

You are impressively wrong.  In Missouri teachers earn about the median wage - teachers at $45k and all residents at $44k
http://www.teachingdegree.org/missouri/salary/
http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/wages/mhi_10.stm

Retirement benefits are almost entirely covered by employee contributions (15% of salary) and investment earnings:
https://www.psrs-peers.org/PSRS/PSRS-Funding.html  The employer pays another 15% of salary into retirement, but does not have to pay into Social Security.

Please stop making up numbers.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:54:40 PM by beltim »

Chris22

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2015, 03:53:54 PM »
Same thing with schools. We pay teachers crap and treat them like crap in the poorer areas especially. We aren't going to attract and retain the best teachers that way. And pay for performance is harder than it seems because the teachers really have very little control over the students' performance. A lot of that is determined by the parents and the environment the kid has at home. Studies show that kids from stressful home situations have a harder time learning anything because their brains are less able to spend the long, focused time required to have things sink in. Instead, they are in hyper-alert mode.

Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

Agree on the parental and home involvement impacting the outcome.
+1  In our state regardless if it is rural or city, teachers are among the highest compensated group there is.   I would say in rural areas they are often the top paid people.   The thing is they work part time for 25 years but are paid for up to 75 years.   It is a great gig.   

In our rural area right now we are charged about 13K per student per year which equates to about $13 per hour of classroom time.   Not a bargain by any measure.   (colleges around here only charge 8K per year for classes).   

My belief is that 80% of the kids should be weeded out by 2nd grade and steered towards job training.   Over the course of 13 years we are spending around 300K (if the money was invested each year) per child.  That is enough to start paying the kids 12K per year for life if they never went to school and just invested the money on their behalf.   

By the way,  the Mennonite school up the road has about 240 students thru grade 8.   They do a very fine job without any taxes involved at all.  Amazing how that works?     

Taxes are 90% bullshit IMHO  --- yeah,  road taxes are fine, but most  taxes are pure BS. How much of your tax money has been spent locking up pot heads over the years?  That was pure BS for 40 years.   I'm frothing at the mouth just now --- forgive me!

Second grade?  What kind of idiot are you?  What you've accomplished at age 8 should dictate your education and life possibilities going forward?  Come on. 

sunday

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2015, 05:17:42 PM »
Being judged in second grade for your future life prospects is pretty harsh. Not to mention there are many immigrants with children who may flounder at first in American school, then succeed beyond their aptitude in second grade or another arbitrary young age.

As to taxes, I certainly don't like them, but considering the alternatives, begrudgingly pay the piper to keep a functioning society. I'd rather pay taxes and have educated and healthy citizens over having to hire my own personal security and live in a house with high fences.

Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2015, 05:19:42 PM »
Same thing with schools. We pay teachers crap and treat them like crap in the poorer areas especially. We aren't going to attract and retain the best teachers that way. And pay for performance is harder than it seems because the teachers really have very little control over the students' performance. A lot of that is determined by the parents and the environment the kid has at home. Studies show that kids from stressful home situations have a harder time learning anything because their brains are less able to spend the long, focused time required to have things sink in. Instead, they are in hyper-alert mode.

Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

Agree on the parental and home involvement impacting the outcome.

Just going based on what I've seen. I have seen some schools where the salaries were very high. But mostly not.

http://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

I would think that I would be the kind of person that a good school would want to be able to hire. But I could easily make 3-5 times the median salaries elsewhere. As it is I still work for much less than I could earn, but it's hard to talk myself into taking that big a paycut pre-FI.

The median starting salary per your #'s is $36k.  At 10-19 years (payscale), the median teacher is making $50k.  20 years+ median teacher is at $58k (payscale link).   That's consistent with what I'm seeing.  You aren't getting rich on those salaries, but days off are generous, job security is great and benefits are typically pretty good.  I wouldn't define $36k starting and $50K+ as crap especially when benefits are considered.

I have no idea what your background is, but have not doubt you could make more in another field.  The problem is however, the taxpayers don't need to pay teachers $100k+ to give the kids a good education.  Even private schools don't typically pay that to my knowledge.  I'm not even sure it would dramatically improve the outcomes w/o parental involvement.

If there was a shortage of teachers, I would argue for higher wages, but I don't think that's a problem at the moment.  We do, however, need involved parents. 

Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2015, 05:24:37 PM »

Retirement benefits are almost entirely covered by employee contributions (15% of salary) and investment earnings:
https://www.psrs-peers.org/PSRS/PSRS-Funding.html  The employer pays another 15% of salary into retirement, but does not have to pay into Social Security.


In our state, teachers have opted out of social security as well.  The retirement (which both they and the district contribute to) is fairly generous.  I believe retirement is available after 30 or 35 years.  Allows for a much earlier retirement than ss.

In my mind, opting out of social security is a huge benefit.

MoneyCat

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2015, 05:33:44 PM »
If you all think teaching is such an easy gig with great pay and benefits, then you should do it, because as a teacher I can tell you that it really sucks.  You work 60 hour weeks but you don't get paid for 60 hour weeks, plus you get absolutely no respect from anybody, plus you get crappy insurance and terrible prescription coverage, plus you don't get to have a pension anymore, so go invest in cat food.  The profession changed in the 2000s and the only people who knowingly go into the profession today are upple-middle class people looking to "make a difference" before they leave to work for their parents' business and Teach for America volunteers looking for an adventure for two years without joining the Peace Corps.

Honestly, if I could do it all over again, I'd just get a business degree, because then I could make a TON of money and be my own boss, rather than being unable to go to the bathroom and having poorly socialized teenagers scream at me all day.

beltim

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2015, 05:45:07 PM »

Retirement benefits are almost entirely covered by employee contributions (15% of salary) and investment earnings:
https://www.psrs-peers.org/PSRS/PSRS-Funding.html  The employer pays another 15% of salary into retirement, but does not have to pay into Social Security.


In our state, teachers have opted out of social security as well.  The retirement (which both they and the district contribute to) is fairly generous.  I believe retirement is available after 30 or 35 years.  Allows for a much earlier retirement than ss.

In my mind, opting out of social security is a huge benefit.

It can be. Well-administered pension plans can pay much higher benefits than Social Security at a much lower cost to the employer (see Massachusetts).

However, most teachers never receive a pension, and fewer than 20% ever reach the full pension that people like Bob complain about.  Like many pensions, it rewards longevity and so is a great deal for people who stay in one school system for a career - but that only applies to a small percentage.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/many-teachers-face-a-retirement-savings-penalty-when-leaving-the-profession/2014/05/16/13835730-d7b1-11e3-8a78-8fe50322a72c_story.html

Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2015, 05:47:26 PM »
If you all think teaching is such an easy gig with great pay and benefits, then you should do it, because as a teacher I can tell you that it really sucks.  You work 60 hour weeks but you don't get paid for 60 hour weeks, plus you get absolutely no respect from anybody, plus you get crappy insurance and terrible prescription coverage, plus you don't get to have a pension anymore, so go invest in cat food.  The profession changed in the 2000s and the only people who knowingly go into the profession today are upple-middle class people looking to "make a difference" before they leave to work for their parents' business and Teach for America volunteers looking for an adventure for two years without joining the Peace Corps.

Honestly, if I could do it all over again, I'd just get a business degree, because then I could make a TON of money and be my own boss, rather than being unable to go to the bathroom and having poorly socialized teenagers scream at me all day.

I respect the profession of teaching and it's a hard job.  Having said that, why don't you start a business and get rich if you are unhappy with teaching?  That's not meant as a slight, but there has to be a reason you continue.

I worked 2350 hours (we bill by the hour) last year .  That's an average of 45 hours week every week.  I had some 80 hour weeks and some 30 hours weeks but those are real hours that exclude time spent cultivating clients, business lunches, vacation, days off and travel. 

I know many teachers (my father was one) and none the them are pulling anywhere near the hours I do on an annual basis.  Holidays, summers off, spring break, they all serve to pull the teachers annual hours down. 

Many people in the business world work more than I do.  50+ hours year around are fairly common in management positions.

Many companies don't provide health insurance at all (I'm lucky enough to have it).  Because I want to retire at some point, I save an exorbitant amount of my salary versus having a guaranteed pension if you stick it out.  I have much less job security than teaching. 

Regarding the poorly socialized teenagers, I get to deal with 7 figure incomes complaining about their lack of money.

I make more than teachers, but the hours and risks being taken are very different.

PS - I'm not complaining about my vocation.  I'm very fortunate.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 06:10:07 PM by Midwest »

arebelspy

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2015, 06:39:04 PM »

Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

I grossed 32k coming out of college my first year as a teacher.

Now, with 8 years experience and a Master's degree, I gross 44k.

Whether that's good or bad depends on your perspective, but it's not great compared to many educated professionals.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2015, 07:18:57 PM »

Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

I grossed 32k coming out of college my first year as a teacher.

Now, with 8 years experience and a Master's degree, I gross 44k.

Whether that's good or bad depends on your perspective, but it's not great compared to many educated professionals.

Didn't you start a real estate biz while teaching?  Assuming I'm correct, would that have been possible without the time off teaching provides? 

I'm not saying teachers are rich, but my father (a teacher)  and his friends used the extra time off for side jobs.  Those side incomes wouldn't have been possible wo the time off.  Time off and benefits are important components of the pay scale.

Also, I was originally responding to teachers make crap. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:23:07 PM by Midwest »

forummm

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2015, 07:21:18 PM »
If there was a shortage of teachers, I would argue for higher wages, but I don't think that's a problem at the moment.  We do, however, need involved parents. 

I would argue there's a shortage of good teachers. And I would argue that's because of the relatively low wages for the difficulty of doing the job well, among other factors. If you setup the job to not be very prestigious, then you won't get the same caliber of applicants on average. I think that training 35 young minds at once, and doing it well, is a significantly more difficult job than being an HVAC technician or a plumber, or other trades that pay much higher wages. Arebelspy is clearly a very smart guy, has a masters degree, 8 years of experience was was pulling down administrative assistant level wages. I think that speaks volumes.

use2betrix

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2015, 07:32:46 PM »
That's fine.  Feel free to post whatever point you were making with that.

Or was your point that I should move, so I can pay more state taxes elsewhere?  And people who live in a place with no sales tax should go out of state to buy all their stuff?  Why would that make any sense, or be relevant at all?  I'm just not following.

None of the above.  Just that on the margin, it's easier to feel like you could be paying more taxes when you are not subjected to taxes that most other Americans are required to pay.  The same argument could be applied to lower income folks complaining that upper income folks should be paying more taxes when their tax rates are appreciably lower than the top x%.

So what's stopping you from going to one of these states, because that few percent difference is worth whining on the Internet for, it should also be worth moving for apparently? I don't understand the logic.

Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2015, 08:07:22 PM »
If there was a shortage of teachers, I would argue for higher wages, but I don't think that's a problem at the moment.  We do, however, need involved parents. 

I would argue there's a shortage of good teachers. And I would argue that's because of the relatively low wages for the difficulty of doing the job well, among other factors. If you setup the job to not be very prestigious, then you won't get the same caliber of applicants on average. I think that training 35 young minds at once, and doing it well, is a significantly more difficult job than being an HVAC technician or a plumber, or other trades that pay much higher wages. Arebelspy is clearly a very smart guy, has a masters degree, 8 years of experience was was pulling down administrative assistant level wages. I think that speaks volumes.

HVAC - http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=HVAC_Service_Technician/Hourly_Rate - 19.00 x 2080 = $39,520
Plumber - http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Plumber/Hourly_Rate - 20 x 2080 = $41,600

The 2 trades mentioned both make $40k per year assuming 2080 hours a year. 

If the average teacher is working 9 months at 45 hours per week, a $45,000 wage equates to a  $53,000 for someone working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year.

Considering the average school is out for 3 months a year or more and a teacher has much better benefits than the trades typically, I would say the teacher (who I agree is much more educated) is doing a lot better than the average plumber or HVAC person.  The teacher is nearly guaranteed to have health insurance, the trades person much less likely.

During the recession, I would say the average teacher was much more likely to keep their job than the average trades person.  Job security is a huge part of any govt job and part of the reason for the lower compensation compared to other master degree candidates.  While teachers have to put up with a bunch of brats, trades people are working outside or in the case of the plumber literally shoveling human waste.

Finally, with regard to prestige, teachers in our community (and I believe most) are well regarded.  I would certainly say the teachers job is more prestigious than the average plumber.

arebelspy

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2015, 08:12:17 PM »


Where do you live that teachers are paid crap or what do you define as crap pay?  Experienced teachers in our state make $50-$70k with great job security and an awesome retirement plan.  That includes teachers in an inner city school district.  Not huge money, but not crap either.

I grossed 32k coming out of college my first year as a teacher.

Now, with 8 years experience and a Master's degree, I gross 44k.

Whether that's good or bad depends on your perspective, but it's not great compared to many educated professionals.

Didn't you start a real estate biz while teaching?  Assuming I'm correct, would that have been possible without the time off teaching provides? 

Yes, it would have. Time off from teaching wasn't when I did it--I did after school tutoring, Saturday school, Summer School every year, etc.

The real estate fit around that, and didn't take that much time.

I could have done it much easier with just a 40 hour/wk. job, actually.

Quote
Also, I was originally responding to teachers make crap.

Yes, and I was responding to your response of that. I don't know what you consider crap, as it all depends on perspective, but 32k out of college is pretty poor, in general.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Gin1984

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2015, 08:40:26 PM »
If there was a shortage of teachers, I would argue for higher wages, but I don't think that's a problem at the moment.  We do, however, need involved parents. 

I would argue there's a shortage of good teachers. And I would argue that's because of the relatively low wages for the difficulty of doing the job well, among other factors. If you setup the job to not be very prestigious, then you won't get the same caliber of applicants on average. I think that training 35 young minds at once, and doing it well, is a significantly more difficult job than being an HVAC technician or a plumber, or other trades that pay much higher wages. Arebelspy is clearly a very smart guy, has a masters degree, 8 years of experience was was pulling down administrative assistant level wages. I think that speaks volumes.

HVAC - http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=HVAC_Service_Technician/Hourly_Rate - 19.00 x 2080 = $39,520
Plumber - http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Plumber/Hourly_Rate - 20 x 2080 = $41,600

The 2 trades mentioned both make $40k per year assuming 2080 hours a year. 

If the average teacher is working 9 months at 45 hours per week, a $45,000 wage equates to a  $53,000 for someone working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year.

Considering the average school is out for 3 months a year or more and a teacher has much better benefits than the trades typically, I would say the teacher (who I agree is much more educated) is doing a lot better than the average plumber or HVAC person.  The teacher is nearly guaranteed to have health insurance, the trades person much less likely.

During the recession, I would say the average teacher was much more likely to keep their job than the average trades person.  Job security is a huge part of any govt job and part of the reason for the lower compensation compared to other master degree candidates.  While teachers have to put up with a bunch of brats, trades people are working outside or in the case of the plumber literally shoveling human waste.

Finally, with regard to prestige, teachers in our community (and I believe most) are well regarded.  I would certainly say the teachers job is more prestigious than the average plumber.
I have been out of school for a while, but I don't remember it being three months.  By the time I was in high school, summer breaks was ten weeks (so two and half months) and the teachers were required to work prep and cleanup the week after classes and the week before, so for them it was 8 weeks.

Midwest

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2015, 09:00:50 PM »

I have been out of school for a while, but I don't remember it being three months.  By the time I was in high school, summer breaks was ten weeks (so two and half months) and the teachers were required to work prep and cleanup the week after classes and the week before, so for them it was 8 weeks.

In our district. Your summer est is probably about right although not certain of the 2 work weeks.   Add to that thanksgiving (full week), Christmas (2 weeks), spring break ( 1 week) and all the fed holidays.   They also get some personal days on top of that.  No complaints about this, but can't ignore when looking at comp package.

Gin1984

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2015, 09:11:06 PM »

I have been out of school for a while, but I don't remember it being three months.  By the time I was in high school, summer breaks was ten weeks (so two and half months) and the teachers were required to work prep and cleanup the week after classes and the week before, so for them it was 8 weeks.

In our district. Your summer est is probably about right although not certain of the 2 work weeks.   Add to that thanksgiving (full week), Christmas (2 weeks), spring break ( 1 week) and all the fed holidays.   They also get some personal days on top of that.  No complaints about this, but can't ignore when looking at comp package.
Your teachers have more time off that mine did as a kid.  We had class during thanksgiving week, we only got a half day Wednesday and Thursday-Friday off.  I never saw them off except when they were sick so I assume no personal days.  I don't remember Xmas but I agree with spring break (or as my teachers called it Easter break, lol). 

Arktinkerer

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2015, 10:11:18 PM »
Back to the OP's question.   

I hate paying taxes but more than that I hate that I have to spend so much time and energy figuring out how to arrange my affairs to pay the minimum amount.  Further, no mater how much I work at that, it always seems while doing the paperwork, that if I did something different or saved more receipts I could have shaved even a bit more off my taxes.

As far as it being a necessary evil, go read some modern monetary theory.  Why is a dollar worth anything?  Best answer they could come up with is you HAVE to have dollars to pay your taxes!  Without that requirement modern fiat currencies would collapse.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Taxation
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2015, 06:25:37 PM »
The problem with teacher pay is bad teachers get nearly the same pay as good teachers.

This *usually* fixes itself in the private industry, except in some large companies where you can perform horribly and just get ignored in the complexity of a large group.

The other problem is "no child left behind".   Sometimes you just need to open the car door and leave them behind, in order to have enough gas for the other kids to reach the destination.   If a teacher has to spend 10% of his/her resources on one child in a classroom of 35, then we have problems.   This is why we have lawn service companies.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!