Author Topic: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market  (Read 5123 times)

NorCal

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Our family is starting to make plans to leave the SF Bay Area for a relatively less expensive area.  Our timing is roughly summer 2018.  I'm fully on board and ready to go.  My wife is logically ready for the move, but isn't there emotionally.  Both our families are in CA, which is the hardest part.  She's only lived in LA, the Bay Area, and a brief time in Washington DC.  I've lived in a number of places around the country, so I'm a little more comfortable with the move.

We're looking at cities like Portland & Denver metro, so this is a move to a relatively more affordable spot, but not necessarily affordable from a national perspective.

For those of you that have made this type of move, what has your experience been?  What has surprised you?  What are the biggest differences you've noticed and what doesn't change?

Thinkum

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2017, 09:46:35 PM »
We moved from SoCA to Dallas, oh about 3.5 years ago. Neither of us had even visited the area before we decided to move, it was a work thing. We decided to stay because of COL, easy to build the stache, and life is easier here on many fronts.

What surprised us was how much greenery there is/was everywhere. While there are no oceans nearby there are tons of lakes. RAIN surprised us! Back home we were in about year 3 or 4 of the drought. All the mountains where turning brown, fires, and no streams or waterfalls either. Over here there is water everywhere!

Biggest differences were no state tax, lower sales tax, but higher property taxes. Also liquor laws are w-e-i-r-d, but apparently not unheard of in other states. Having 4 seasons was a big change. There are less days of wearing shorts and a t-shirt in winter. People are a lot nicer here too.

The things that didn't change are traffic, there's less here, but it's been getting worse. The rise in the cost of housing is crazy town here. In the short time we've been here, we've seen rents go way up as well as RE prices. Although at least here they build more apartments and homes while in SoCA it's way less common. There is still the suburban sprawl and as such, more traffic.

One thing I would caution is the importance of family and friends. If your wife or you have strong family ties, I would not discount that in the name of saving money. It can be hard when the only time you see family is after a plane ride. And as people get older, this can only get worse. Good luck.


CDP45

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2017, 09:47:58 PM »
Why not a cheaper city in California? Derivable to family, and the weather is probably a lot better than other places. Denver seems like a good idea.

Dicey

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2017, 09:53:08 PM »
One thing I would caution is the importance of family and friends. If your wife or you have strong family ties, I would not discount that in the name of saving money. It can be hard when the only time you see family is after a plane ride. And as people get older, this can only get worse. Good luck.
This.

nemesis

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2017, 09:57:57 PM »
How about moving to Reno?  Nevada has no income tax, and you're only a few hours drive to San Francisco.

Being close to family can be a nice perk, in case you need family support or they need yours. 

Erica

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2017, 10:28:25 PM »
There are many lower cost towns in California.

Truckee is wonderful and has excellent air quality. It's a straight shot from Loyalton (a very cheap area) to work in Truckee.

We have some land for sale in Alta, California.

I work in Grass Valley but live in Meadow Vista

You could live in Emigrant Gap and shoot over to Nevada County very easily from there. Excellent Air quality in Emigrant Gap

There is also Cool, California and parts of El Dorado County which are nice

Downieville is beautiful but you'd need to commute to Nevada County to work


I hope you re-consider uprooting my wife and family away from loved ones to another State.

She's not fully on board, it's very risky. Seems to never work when you try to convince people or wait for them to be on board

Because they never really were on board in the first place. Good luck to both of you

NorCal

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 10:41:07 PM »
Why not a cheaper city in California? Derivable to family, and the weather is probably a lot better than other places. Denver seems like a good idea.

We've looked at this.  It's not off the table, but we haven't found anyplace that fits the right balance.  My wife's legal career needs a city with lots of venture backed or public companies to sustain her practice.  My corporate finance background is really only applicable at medium to large companies.  In CA, this leaves the Bay Area, LA, or San Diego.  The options here leave us in largely the same COL situation.  San Diego has a somewhat lower COL, but would also come with more limited income opportunities.  There is a town in the deep East Bay that we'd love to live in, but it's "cheaper" at ~$700K for a house, and would come with a 3+ hour commute for our current jobs.

How about moving to Reno?  Nevada has no income tax, and you're only a few hours drive to San Francisco.

Being close to family can be a nice perk, in case you need family support or they need yours. 

Not a bad idea from a geography standpoint.  There just isn't much of a job market for our skillsets.

One thing I would caution is the importance of family and friends. If your wife or you have strong family ties, I would not discount that in the name of saving money. It can be hard when the only time you see family is after a plane ride. And as people get older, this can only get worse. Good luck.
This.

This is honestly what worries us most.  We're not super close with our families, but we do appreciate our proximity to them.  Both of our families have ties to CA going back to the mid-1800's.  We have a LOT of history here.  To make matters even more difficult, we're expecting our second child in April.  Families will be helping a ton.  It feels pretty shitty to be leaving them right after they helped with the new baby's first year.

Three of our four parents are retired, and I imagine they'll visit somewhat frequently.  However, my wife's dad is short on money, and will have to work until he dies.

I can personally justify this on the grounds that living in a ~$400K house will get us to FI in 5-10 years.  If we're living out-of-state but job free in five years, I would love to take a extended roadtrips over the holidays or summer to visit family.

spokey doke

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 08:25:11 AM »

To make matters even more difficult, we're expecting our second child in April.  Families will be helping a ton.  It feels pretty shitty to be leaving them right after they helped with the new baby's first year.

Three of our four parents are retired, and I imagine they'll visit somewhat frequently.

Given this, I would think about waiting a couple years while shopping for a new location and getting the house and job details dialed in...

Have you spent much time in Denver or PDX?

sisto

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 10:16:45 AM »
Why not a cheaper city in California? Derivable to family, and the weather is probably a lot better than other places. Denver seems like a good idea.

We've looked at this.  It's not off the table, but we haven't found anyplace that fits the right balance.  My wife's legal career needs a city with lots of venture backed or public companies to sustain her practice.  My corporate finance background is really only applicable at medium to large companies.  In CA, this leaves the Bay Area, LA, or San Diego.  The options here leave us in largely the same COL situation.  San Diego has a somewhat lower COL, but would also come with more limited income opportunities.  There is a town in the deep East Bay that we'd love to live in, but it's "cheaper" at ~$700K for a house, and would come with a 3+ hour commute for our current jobs.

How about moving to Reno?  Nevada has no income tax, and you're only a few hours drive to San Francisco.

Being close to family can be a nice perk, in case you need family support or they need yours. 

Not a bad idea from a geography standpoint.  There just isn't much of a job market for our skillsets.

One thing I would caution is the importance of family and friends. If your wife or you have strong family ties, I would not discount that in the name of saving money. It can be hard when the only time you see family is after a plane ride. And as people get older, this can only get worse. Good luck.
This.

This is honestly what worries us most.  We're not super close with our families, but we do appreciate our proximity to them.  Both of our families have ties to CA going back to the mid-1800's.  We have a LOT of history here.  To make matters even more difficult, we're expecting our second child in April.  Families will be helping a ton.  It feels pretty shitty to be leaving them right after they helped with the new baby's first year.

Three of our four parents are retired, and I imagine they'll visit somewhat frequently.  However, my wife's dad is short on money, and will have to work until he dies.

I can personally justify this on the grounds that living in a ~$400K house will get us to FI in 5-10 years.  If we're living out-of-state but job free in five years, I would love to take a extended roadtrips over the holidays or summer to visit family.

It seems like there should be some jobs in the Sacramento area that meet both of your needs.

Dicey

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 10:09:50 PM »
There are many lower cost towns in California.

Truckee is wonderful and has excellent air quality. It's a straight shot from Loyalton (a very cheap area) to work in Truckee.

We have some land for sale in Alta, California.

I work in Grass Valley but live in Meadow Vista

You could live in Emigrant Gap and shoot over to Nevada County very easily from there. Excellent Air quality in Emigrant Gap

There is also Cool, California and parts of El Dorado County which are nice

Downieville is beautiful but you'd need to commute to Nevada County to work


I hope you re-consider uprooting my wife and family away from loved ones to another State.

She's not fully on board, it's very risky. Seems to never work when you try to convince people or wait for them to be on board

Because they never really were on board in the first place. Good luck to both of you
Funny, my sister and her husband did this. Left CA, went to Knoxville, Tennessee, then Boerne TX, then Summerville SC. They had mostly good experiences, but as my parents aged, she wanted to come back to CA. They finally moved back and settled in Auburn (Waves to Erica). It was very hard on her to be away from family for so many years and moving back to CA was very expensive.

Is there any possibility of squeezing into tiny quarters in the Bay Area and just living like a family of monks for five years or so and pulling the plug? If you're not working, you can live further away in a cheaper area and come back often for visits. I'm thinking there are a lot of possibilities within 2-3 hours of the Bay Area. The area where my sister settled (near Erica) was still about seven hours from my parents, but way better that on the other side of the country.

NorCal, I live in the East Bay and love the sound of the term "Deep East Bay", but I've never heard it before. Google didn't seem to know where it is either. Discovery Bay or Brentwood, perhaps?

Livewell

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 11:15:05 PM »
We live in the South Bay and several years ago considered moving closer to family in TX.  The best thing about it was the housing and how much further your dollars could go, and being close to family while starting our own.  Work was trickier but workable, we thought economically we would be better off.  In the end my DW and I both discovered that the other didn't want to go as much as we thought.  I would just caution that if there are any doubts, don't do it.

For us, we stayed in the Bay.  We ended up making a lot more money than we expected (career path in tech better here), finding MMM helped too, and now outside of occasionally wishing it was easier to get into a bigger house have no regrets.  CA is expensive house wise (outside of that it's on par), it's also diverse culturally and geographically, economically there are many opportunities and the weather is terrific.  It is a wonderful place to live.

OP, you have all that and local family too.  You are blessed!  In the end it's an individual choice, my advice is you might have more options here than you think.

Erica

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2017, 12:20:11 AM »
There are many lower cost towns in California.

Truckee is wonderful and has excellent air quality. It's a straight shot from Loyalton (a very cheap area) to work in Truckee.

We have some land for sale in Alta, California.

I work in Grass Valley but live in Meadow Vista

You could live in Emigrant Gap and shoot over to Nevada County very easily from there. Excellent Air quality in Emigrant Gap

There is also Cool, California and parts of El Dorado County which are nice

Downieville is beautiful but you'd need to commute to Nevada County to work


I hope you re-consider uprooting my wife and family away from loved ones to another State.

She's not fully on board, it's very risky. Seems to never work when you try to convince people or wait for them to be on board

Because they never really were on board in the first place. Good luck to both of you
Funny, my sister and her husband did this. Left CA, went to Knoxville, Tennessee, then Boerne TX, then Summerville SC. They had mostly good experiences, but as my parents aged, she wanted to come back to CA. They finally moved back and settled in Auburn (Waves to Erica). It was very hard on her to be away from family for so many years and moving back to CA was very expensive.

Is there any possibility of squeezing into tiny quarters in the Bay Area and just living like a family of monks for five years or so and pulling the plug? If you're not working, you can live further away in a cheaper area and come back often for visits. I'm thinking there are a lot of possibilities within 2-3 hours of the Bay Area. The area where my sister settled (near Erica) was still about seven hours from my parents, but way better that on the other side of the country.

NorCal, I live in the East Bay and love the sound of the term "Deep East Bay", but I've never heard it before. Google didn't seem to know where it is either. Discovery Bay or Brentwood, perhaps?
We sold our home in Auburn CA and bought some property up the hill not long ago. It's about 45 min away in Iowa Hill but the air quality is better. My husband doesn't cough up there when we visit. I am glad your family came back to where they feel they call home.

NorCal

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2017, 10:11:10 AM »
Denver has much colder winters than anything you have experienced in the bay area.

You will have many 60 degree days and bright sunshine that makes it possible to get away with very light clothes during the day, but otherwise you'll have many days in the low teens and a good amount of snow.  Otherwise, Denver is amazing and if you love winter sports then you'll probably really enjoy the winters.  Traffic going into the mountains on the weekends (during ski season) is pretty bad.  They also have the Great American Beer Festival!

I looked into Portland myself.  The generic online tax calculator told me that the income tax load in Oregon is roughly 30% higher than California income tax load (using $200k income for the calculator).  Colorado has a flat 4.63% income tax and in some counties the sales tax is works out to around 3.5% (can be as high as 9% in some cities I believe, but in Weld County I have paid 3.5% a few times on purchases).

While Denver is much more affordable than the Bay area, there are definitely unaffordable areas (Boulder average home price is a little over $1,000,000 (including single family, multi-family, and condos), Highland Ranch, Cherry Creek).  Denver traffic is not too different as compared to the Bay area in time delay to get to places.  There are quite a few "luxury" apartments being built in downtown Denver, so I'd imagine the rents at the high end of the market won't have too much upward pressure for much longer.

My experience involves moving from Washington DC to Denver (and now to Phoenix).  DC = never buy a home and even condos were unreasonable.  Denver = we did buy a home at 1/3 the price of a similar home in DC.  Phoenix = 1/2 Denver pricing (or 1/6 of DC pricing).  However, home prices have swelled in the Denver area since we purchased in 2014.

Quote
For those of you that have made this type of move, what has your experience been?  What has surprised you?  What are the biggest differences you've noticed and what doesn't change?
1.  The experience was fine for us because neither of us had family in DC.  We did have some great friends and connections in DC, but were able to make connections in Denver as well.  People are really friendly in Colorado.  My wife really missed the metropolitan feel of DC.  We both really enjoyed the semi-rural feel of where we moved to (just north of Denver near Boulder).
2.  I don't think we had too many surprises.  I had formulated a spreadsheet with 100 data points on about 75 locations we were considering (quite a bit from city-data but in a side by side comparison format) and when we had boiled it down to our top 5 choices by the numbers we visited those locations in the summer and the winter with week long trips.
3.  The altitude was a big change for us which meant the sunshine (of which there are is quite a bit) is very intense.  The bike friendliness of the area also surprised us - tons of mountain biking and even a big mountain biking city park called Valmont in Boulder.  I expected that I wouldn't find quality Asian markets and Japanese restaurants - unfortunately that was true.

Thanks for the insights.  This is really helpful.

We did visit the Denver area in 2015, and thought it was a great place.  This pretty much confirms my experience.  It's always just different being somewhere as a tourist than living there.

NorCal

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 04:54:50 PM »
Have you considered Oregon? Not as low cost as it use to be but better than the Bay area and a short, easy, and inexpensive flight to SF if you are in Portlan d area or its burbs. Lots of flights from places like Eugene too and less expensive than Portland but jobs may be scarcer.

Oregon is on the list.  Eugene looks like a nice spot if we get to the point of not having to work.  Portland is more realistic for the time we still need to work.

To somewhat simplify the situation, my wife prefers the Pacific North-West, while I prefer the Mountain West.  But I think we'd do just fine in either.

We are sticking with a major metro area for this move no matter what.  I do like the idea of the smaller cities, but that's just not the right move for us at this point in our life.

I really am curious about the culture differences of the regions, and how "different" it really is.  I've moved around the south with the military and spent most of my life in the Bay Area.  The military has a strong "group-think" culture, and so does the Bay Area.  That's something I'm really hoping to get away from.  Ideally, there would be a community of people that actually know their neighbors, and it's okay if people have different opinions.

For example, I've heard from semi-reliable internet sources that people in Colorado are friendly, and people in the PNW are cold and stand-offish.  What does this mean in practice in terms of meeting people, making friends, and helping my daughter fit into a new environment.

CDP45

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 09:09:13 PM »
Have you considered Oregon? Not as low cost as it use to be but better than the Bay area and a short, easy, and inexpensive flight to SF if you are in Portlan d area or its burbs. Lots of flights from places like Eugene too and less expensive than Portland but jobs may be scarcer.

Most of the Californians can't handle the rain, and they stick out, but particularly for not having any self reliance. There's lots of examples of them getting lost in the woods and dying from hypothermia. But hard to blame someone who never stepped off concrete. And Eugene is a swamp that makes Portland look like NYC.

I think the stand-off culture is because so many people move to SEA or PDX as a barista or artist and aren't invested and end up leaving after a couple years. Why make friends with tourists?

CDP45

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Re: Talk to me about moving from ultra-HCOL market to a lower COL market
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2017, 10:24:30 PM »
Ha, love that guy, shitty beer but awesome commercials.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!