Author Topic: Suze Orman hates FIRE  (Read 23384 times)

Psychstache

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #200 on: October 08, 2018, 02:04:02 PM »
Looks like an interesting thread, so PTF.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it does help to understand their perspective.  Suze is uber rich PF oldschool, I'm sure to her anyone that ER's in their prime with 5 million or less seems crazy to her since they could be making millions more and those 5 million or less is chump change.  She sees life through her own lens and her life has worked out fine doling out conservative advice.  I'd have been shocked (and impressed with her mental flexibility) if she had considered the possibility that FIRE might be sensible and possibly even rational.  But then again, I've never had much respect for Suze Orman's opinions and she has never added anything new to my PF learning.

I get that it is her experience and perspective, but surely she has seen enough financial data and research to know that most people will never EARN $5 million dollars IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFETIME, so how can that be a realistic minimum threshold for the average person to retire on? She's either incompetent, intellectually lazy, or dishonest.

Cassie

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #201 on: October 08, 2018, 02:14:15 PM »
Many people aren't healthy enough to keep working in old age even if they want to.   She is out of touch with the average person even though she didn't grow up rich.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #202 on: October 08, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »
Looks like an interesting thread, so PTF.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it does help to understand their perspective.  Suze is uber rich PF oldschool, I'm sure to her anyone that ER's in their prime with 5 million or less seems crazy to her since they could be making millions more and those 5 million or less is chump change.  She sees life through her own lens and her life has worked out fine doling out conservative advice.  I'd have been shocked (and impressed with her mental flexibility) if she had considered the possibility that FIRE might be sensible and possibly even rational.  But then again, I've never had much respect for Suze Orman's opinions and she has never added anything new to my PF learning.

I get that it is her experience and perspective, but surely she has seen enough financial data and research to know that most people will never EARN $5 million dollars IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFETIME, so how can that be a realistic minimum threshold for the average person to retire on? She's either incompetent, intellectually lazy, or dishonest.

What I was meaning to say is that Suze probably thinks it's only OK to FIRE with $5 million at 40 (or, as she stated, at 25 with $20 million or 35 with $10 million) if you dislike your paid work, or you can 'normal retire' on a more modest amount at 65 or 70.  I didn't intend to represent her view as that everyone has to hit $5 million before they can safely retire.  I tried to listen to some of the podcast but don't have the stomach to 'hate listen' to someone who doesn't bother to understand their audience! 

There are already plenty of examples of folks that FIRE'd successfully in their 20's and 30's with a million or less and seem to have no problem keeping expenses low or increasing income commensurate with lifestyle inflation.  Many YouTubers, Twitch Streamers, travel bloggers, renaissance festival workers, etc. could probably also fall under the FIRE banner but don't fly it since ER was not their goal.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:09:27 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

RedwoodDreams

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #203 on: October 08, 2018, 07:37:32 PM »
Lol oook OMG..... Anyone else not really sure what her argument is? I mean aside from the long term disability insurance, that might be a valid claim. But the rest is a big circular argument. She gives the impression that there is never enough money to be made, ever. There appears to be a HUGE disconnect between her and the middle and lower class.

Longterm disability costs me like $100 a year... That is so cheap not even sure why she brings that up as something to worry about other then just get it. My state also pays it if you cannot work, I have known 45 year old's on it, though it pays a lot less (social security levels).

One of the unpleasant realities you learn about only when you are in the unfortunate position of having to use your paid-into-for-three-decades long term disability plan from your employer is that the insurance co. has an army of people working very hard to deny you benefits. On top of having a major illness I had to battle, appeal, repeatedly bug my very busy doctors for updates and forms, and experience the real fear of being both very ill and without a reliable income. The experience was quite eye opening, because all those years I thought I was being so smart and protecting myself, but if I hadn't had the support of my very busy doctor in filling out forms and answering appeals, I likely would have lost that benefit. It was infuriating and humiliating. The process of applying for and receiving SSDI, also paid into during three decades of work, was similar. In the end, i was lucky, but it did make me realize how thin the ice can become for people when they experience a debilitating illness and can no longer work. And I never in a million years thought it might be me.

PKFFW

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #204 on: October 09, 2018, 12:50:45 AM »
One of the unpleasant realities you learn about only when you are in the unfortunate position of having to use your paid-into-for-three-decades long term disability plan from your employer is that the insurance co. has an army of people working very hard to deny you benefits. On top of having a major illness I had to battle, appeal, repeatedly bug my very busy doctors for updates and forms, and experience the real fear of being both very ill and without a reliable income. The experience was quite eye opening, because all those years I thought I was being so smart and protecting myself, but if I hadn't had the support of my very busy doctor in filling out forms and answering appeals, I likely would have lost that benefit. It was infuriating and humiliating. The process of applying for and receiving SSDI, also paid into during three decades of work, was similar. In the end, i was lucky, but it did make me realize how thin the ice can become for people when they experience a debilitating illness and can no longer work. And I never in a million years thought it might be me.
This right here is why I will never understand why so many Americans believe it is a good thing to have an entire industry with the sole purpose of making a profit between themselves and access to good quality health care.

Dicey

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #205 on: October 09, 2018, 03:49:11 AM »
Looks like an interesting thread, so PTF.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it does help to understand their perspective.  Suze is uber rich PF oldschool nouveau riche, I'm sure to her anyone that ER's in their prime with 5 million or less seems crazy to her since they could be making millions more and those 5 million or less is chump change.  She sees life through her own lens and her life has worked out fine doling out conservative advice.  I'd have been shocked (and impressed with her mental flexibility) if she had considered the possibility that FIRE might be sensible and possibly even rational.  But then again, I've never had much respect for Suze Orman's opinions and she has never added anything new to my PF learning.
EV2020, I agree with your assessment of SO, except for one part, so I FTFY.

MrOnyx

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #206 on: October 09, 2018, 04:21:23 AM »
I'm just going to chime in here, if I may, with an off-the-wall, bluntly made, sharp point that I'm not sure has been addressed directly yet. It may well have, but just for completeness' sake...

Maybe Suze Orman is just an egomaniac who feels like her toes are being trodden on by people far younger than her retiring with far less money.

She's lashing out with a lot of anger, spite and snobbery; all of which, to me, look like characteristics of a cornered animal attempting to defend itself while retaining dignity.

She worked hard all her life and has so much money, that surely only someone such as herself deserves to retire early at 62, right? Furthermore, she found it so boring that she started working again - yaaaawn retiring early is soooo beneath me. Wait, what's this? There are people figuring out that you can retire at 30 with only a few hundred grand? LIES! WHAT ARE THESE KIDS DOING ON MY TERRITORY?!?!?!

Does she feel invalidated that people have managed to out-do the mighty Suze Orman on the financial plane? I mean there aren't many other explanations for her ludicrously detached comments. She's gatekeeping people who earn the US median income as 'low earners'. She's throwing out huge figures of sums, stating them as trivial amounts to live off of - only a monk can live off of $60k a year!!

But then, what do I know? I'm just a clueless Brit living in a nanny state.

BeanCounter

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #207 on: October 09, 2018, 06:52:21 AM »
I think she is trying to be relevant again by being controversial. FIRE has been in the media a lot the last couple years. To maintain her standing as a “financial guru”, she needed to weigh in. And somewhere in that interview there may have been some valid points, unfortunately they were lost in the crazy.

radram

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #208 on: October 09, 2018, 07:20:36 AM »
I think the interview was a media grab from the beginning. Both sides, and there was a clear winner. Afford Anything came out on top. It wasn't even close. She even had a follow-up show, which it sounded like that was her plan from the beginning.

Accept the request, figuring Suze would slam us, just quietly let her speak, and have a followup show to discuss why Suze is out of touch. I loved it. It even sounded like MMM may have discussed this "master plan" with Paula prior to the interview. I say great play.  Here is the followup show. I found it well worth the time:

http://podcast.affordanything.com/154-youll-need-at-least-10-million-to-retire-early-says-suze-orman/

Suze sounded unprepared to me. It sounded like she was using the interview to get her chops back after a 3 year break. It showed.

It was too bad for her. I remember some of the best advice I heard soon after the crash(quote is paraphrased): "Do not focus on what you had, focus on what you have." This was Suze of old. She went from roll up your sleeves and get to work fixing what went wrong, to doom and gloom fear.

MrOnyx

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #209 on: October 09, 2018, 09:31:47 AM »
That was a great post-Suze round-up by Paula, and I think that final point she makes before the outro and post-amble is really the most important one - why many of us are here in the first place; we don't want to work until we're 70 because we may very well not even make it to 70. I don't want to die at 50 having spent my entire adult life working 40+ hours a week.

You're right, Paula won. And if her and MMM actually predicted what Suze would say, then that's even better.

Obviously I was feeling considerably sassy when I wrote my last comment here, but listening to that episode has me feeling more thoughtful overall now.

I guess Suze underestimated Paula and the FIRE community as a whole. As a movement that is fuelled and led by bloggers and podcasters, I imagine the outside image of it is similar to some sort of guerrilla rebellion. The thing is, it's more than that - we got this figured out.

MrsPete

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #210 on: October 09, 2018, 05:32:56 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'. 

lhamo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #211 on: October 09, 2018, 08:38:18 PM »
Listened to both the interview and Paula's follow up today.  Suze was seriously unhinged.  And so inelegant with her blatant self-promotion.  I loved the MMM tweet follow up about her being an evil Disney puppy-hating villain.  Really felt that way. And she made NO SENSE -- you can't stop working before traditional retirement age unless you have 10-20 million, but if you retire at 65-70 with only average savings you are going to be fine because you always lived below your means.  Huh?  She was just one random slogan after another and they didn't match Paula's questions or even make sense after awhile.

The queen of old PF is dead, long live the new royalty of FIRE!

albireo13

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #212 on: October 09, 2018, 09:54:53 PM »
Those who are with money are easy to dispense predictions

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #213 on: October 10, 2018, 05:14:35 PM »
Except it's get of my private beach front you snot nose little shits.

genesismachine

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #214 on: October 10, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
Let me just sum up the interview:
You can't retire unless you have $10M saved because what if wages go down while taxes go up and you have to care for your kid that needs $50k/year for school and sick parents that need $250k/year in care.

...but isn't that 99.9% of Americans?

At least now we know never to recommend her to anyone for advice. It blows my mind that she's not laughed off her shows/books after this.

TL8

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #215 on: October 11, 2018, 01:55:13 AM »
I'm sure Orman is perfectly honest in her belief that $250K/year is what a person needs for a comfortable retirement. What she should be thinking about deeply is why she needs to spend so much more money than the average American to realize a fulfilling retirement. Millions of Americans live fulfilling lives on 20% or even 10% of this amount. She should be thinking hard about why she can't when so many others can, but instead she promotes her own misguided standards as a universal truth. Bad approach.

MrOnyx

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #216 on: October 11, 2018, 01:59:31 AM »
It blows my mind that she's not laughed off her shows/books after this.

If she's anything like financial guru Martin Lewis here in the UK, I suspect that enough people take her word for it without doing their own research. I'm not saying that I have an axe to grind with ML, just that he (and possibly her) target the mainstream audience - one that's renowned for doing as they're told and not questioning the authority figures that the media places before them.

The FIRE movement probably isn't widespread enough for enough people to have enough knowledge about it, sadly. Heck, she might even dampen its momentum...

Psychstache

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #217 on: October 11, 2018, 06:54:31 AM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.

ixtap

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #218 on: October 11, 2018, 08:44:57 AM »
It blows my mind that she's not laughed off her shows/books after this.

If she's anything like financial guru Martin Lewis here in the UK, I suspect that enough people take her word for it without doing their own research. I'm not saying that I have an axe to grind with ML, just that he (and possibly her) target the mainstream audience - one that's renowned for doing as they're told and not questioning the authority figures that the media places before them.

The FIRE movement probably isn't widespread enough for enough people to have enough knowledge about it, sadly. Heck, she might even dampen its momentum...

The people who buy Suze's and Dave's books believe they deserve the lifestyle that they are selling. They picture themselves living better in retirement than they do know. They are not people who are interested in leading more simple lives now and in retirement.

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #219 on: October 11, 2018, 09:20:29 AM »
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice. And this is where I think crazy Suzie might have a valid point. If you lean FIRE and some crazy thing happens that forces you to dip into your principle, how can you keep going without working? And if that happens after you’ve sat out of the work world for ten years, what do you do?
I would be considered lean FIRE and I don't feel like it is a sacrifice to spend low.  Worst case situation you make adjustments if you have to, even if that means going back to work.  I can't see spending years more at work to cover every possible bad situation.
I think there can be a point somewhere in between. It’s obviously different for everyone’s unique situation.

No matter how many times it is addressed, there is this persistent myth that this forum pushes a lifestyle of extreme frugality.  There are certainly blogs (eg ERE) that push this, but around here the main goal is a lifestyle that would be considered extremely comfortable by most US standards and luxurious by 90% of the world.  MMM even wrote a blog post about it, which seems relevant to repost here:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Dicey

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #220 on: October 11, 2018, 05:28:18 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Not sure there isn't something more to Mrs. Pete's comment than snark, Psychstache. Leather jackets aren't particularly the rage these days. To many, wearing leather clothing is inappropriate, reflective of cruelty to animals. To my eye, it makes her look out of step, out of date and out of touch with reality. It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did. Therefore, a rather calculated decision on SO's part.

Also, Psych, unless you know Mrs. Pete IRL, your comment about what you believe she is better than is out of order. Orman is a public figure. Mrs. Pete is a forum member. Please see Forum Rules, particularly Rule #1.

Goldielocks

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #221 on: October 11, 2018, 06:25:23 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Not sure there isn't something more to Mrs. Pete's comment than snark, Psychstache. Leather jackets aren't particularly the rage these days. To many, wearing leather clothing is inappropriate, reflective of cruelty to animals. To my eye, it makes her look out of step, out of date and out of touch with reality. It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did. Therefore, a rather calculated decision on SO's part.

Also, Psych, unless you know Mrs. Pete IRL, your comment about what you believe she is better than is out of order. Orman is a public figure. Mrs. Pete is a forum member. Please see Forum Rules, particularly Rule #1.
Nah,  she was wearing her "brand" image -- the same necklace, the leather coat, the hairstyle, and forceful way of talking and sounding exciting, etc.   The comment above about trying for a resurgence sounded about right.   You go onto Youtube and Podcasts when you want to increase your audience.

Too bad the image choice appeared to be intentional to distract her audience from the illogical content of what she was actually saying.  She sounds like her head is in the mindtrap that many of the 1% fall victim to.   I used to love watching Suzy in the first few years!

I listened to 16 minutes.  At the point where she expounded that seniors care costs $20k-$30k per month, I was left thinking -- millions of Americans don't pay that and are still alive.... Suzy, you need to go onto your own "Can I afford it?" show, because anyone listening should endure that if they suggest spending that much on their parents' senior care.

ormaybemidgets

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #222 on: October 11, 2018, 06:25:41 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
+1

Cookie78

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #223 on: October 11, 2018, 10:50:17 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
+1

Agreed. So many new exciting things to judge Suze on, why fall back on the old and tired classic of judging a woman by her sense of style?

Still Being

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #224 on: October 12, 2018, 08:20:51 AM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Not sure there isn't something more to Mrs. Pete's comment than snark, Psychstache. Leather jackets aren't particularly the rage these days. To many, wearing leather clothing is inappropriate, reflective of cruelty to animals. To my eye, it makes her look out of step, out of date and out of touch with reality. It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did. Therefore, a rather calculated decision on SO's part.

Also, Psych, unless you know Mrs. Pete IRL, your comment about what you believe she is better than is out of order. Orman is a public figure. Mrs. Pete is a forum member. Please see Forum Rules, particularly Rule #1.

I think it's a valid thing to call someone out for. Critique her words, not her clothes. We're all better than that. Time to call each other out on these things.

Psychstache

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #225 on: October 12, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Not sure there isn't something more to Mrs. Pete's comment than snark, Psychstache. Leather jackets aren't particularly the rage these days. To many, wearing leather clothing is inappropriate, reflective of cruelty to animals. To my eye, it makes her look out of step, out of date and out of touch with reality. It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did. Therefore, a rather calculated decision on SO's part.

Also, Psych, unless you know Mrs. Pete IRL, your comment about what you believe she is better than is out of order. Orman is a public figure. Mrs. Pete is a forum member. Please see Forum Rules, particularly Rule #1.

1. Not sure what you are seeing in my comments that imply I am being a jerk, but please report it and let a mod discuss it with me if you feel it is needed.
2. I don't know Mrs. Pete IRL, but have seen numerous posts from her that have taught me that she is very knowledgeable about finances, thoughtful in her comments, and a wise individual in general, so I feel confident in saying that she is very capable of adding more to the discussion than a fashion based takedown.

I think DS summed it up pretty nicely:

I think it's a valid thing to call someone out for. Critique her words, not her clothes. We're all better than that. Time to call each other out on these things.

Dicey

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #226 on: October 12, 2018, 10:37:25 PM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Not sure there isn't something more to Mrs. Pete's comment than snark, Psychstache. Leather jackets aren't particularly the rage these days. To many, wearing leather clothing is inappropriate, reflective of cruelty to animals. To my eye, it makes her look out of step, out of date and out of touch with reality. It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did. Therefore, a rather calculated decision on SO's part.

Also, Psych, unless you know Mrs. Pete IRL, your comment about what you believe she is better than is out of order. Orman is a public figure. Mrs. Pete is a forum member. Please see Forum Rules, particularly Rule #1.

1. Not sure what you are seeing in my comments that imply I am being a jerk, but please report it and let a mod discuss it with me if you feel it is needed.
2. I don't know Mrs. Pete IRL, but have seen numerous posts from her that have taught me that she is very knowledgeable about finances, thoughtful in her comments, and a wise individual in general, so I feel confident in saying that she is very capable of adding more to the discussion than a fashion based takedown.

I think DS summed it up pretty nicely:

I think it's a valid thing to call someone out for. Critique her words, not her clothes. We're all better than that. Time to call each other out on these things.
The phrase that you used sounded condescending, IMO, unnecessarily so. Shall we just politely agree to disagree?

heybro

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #227 on: October 13, 2018, 03:07:01 AM »
If FIRE **IS** Wrong, then it it can't be **ANY WRONGER** than working your whole life with *NO* retirement savings and holding high debt forever.  And if most people are allowed to do the latter, than I certainly get a pass for doing the former. 

MrsPete

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #228 on: October 13, 2018, 08:46:57 AM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Apparently I'm not.  :)   It's what I thought when I saw that picture, but -- yeah -- it wasn't nice to say it. 

It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did.
That does appear true. 


DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #229 on: October 13, 2018, 09:53:22 AM »
If I had Suze's money, I'd splurge on a leather jacket that isn't butt-ugly.  Really, neither the color nor the style does anything for her.  Just sayin'.

This wasn't necessary. You're better than this Mrs. Pete.
Apparently I'm not.  :)   It's what I thought when I saw that picture, but -- yeah -- it wasn't nice to say it. 

It's almost like she donned a piece of armour, as if she was going into battle. Which is exactly what she did.
That does appear true.

Leather is still HUUUGE!  And Suze can afford it.  She always wears the same gold earrings - I recall her mentioning that on a show many years back.

Maya

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #230 on: October 13, 2018, 08:25:13 PM »
Anyone seen Suze's reply/apology to her misunderstanding? Posted on LinkedIn and her twitter feed.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #231 on: October 13, 2018, 11:16:00 PM »
Anyone seen Suze's reply/apology to her misunderstanding? Posted on LinkedIn and her twitter feed.

Her apology amounts to "...as long as you keep working and making money you can "RE"." Well that's not retiring. So I don't think she gets it. Sounds like she just wanted to head off some of the pushback and negativity to her original comments, but the new remarks don't show a deeper understanding of the topic.


ixtap

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #232 on: October 14, 2018, 08:01:23 AM »
Anyone seen Suze's reply/apology to her misunderstanding? Posted on LinkedIn and her twitter feed.

Her apology amounts to "...as long as you keep working and making money you can "RE"." Well that's not retiring. So I don't think she gets it. Sounds like she just wanted to head off some of the pushback and negativity to her original comments, but the new remarks don't show a deeper understanding of the topic.

It is how every single blogger and podcaster has retired.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #233 on: October 14, 2018, 08:24:11 AM »
It is how every single blogger and podcaster has retired.

Option A - If your retirement plan depends on you earning enough income to fund your life independent of your investments than I would argue you are not retired. You are just working at something else vs. whatever career you may have started at.

Option B - If on the other hand your retirement plan does not depend on the above, but instead you happen to earn some $$ doing something fun you are retired.

My reading of Suze's "apology" is the former not the later.

If Option A is "retirement" than I have been retired my whole life! ;-)

lhamo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #234 on: October 14, 2018, 09:47:57 AM »
Interesting that she posted this the same day Vicki Robin (the REAL queen of living within your means) gave her a gentle on-line slapdown:

https://yourmoneyoryourlife.com/suze-orman-fire-movement/

Mgmny

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #235 on: October 19, 2018, 04:16:47 AM »
New article from Suze! We were so close to getting am apology/"I was wrong"

http://amp.timeinc.net/time/money/5428520/suze-orman-fire-movement

Why doesn't someone just link her the Trinity study and then she has to fight statistics instead of rhetoric: "25x income isn't enough forever"

MrOnyx

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #236 on: October 19, 2018, 04:26:15 AM »
Why doesn't someone just link her the Trinity study and then she has to fight statistics instead of rhetoric: "25x income isn't enough forever"

I guess the problem is either that yes, she hasn't seen/read/heard about it yet, or she just doesn't agree with it. Although, if she does disagree with it, I'd very much like to know what grounds of authority she has to dispute it, because "No, it's wrong because I said so" isn't good enough for me.

Also, IIRC, her apology isn't a real apology. She discretely passes the blame on to someone else - "the information I received was wrong," implying that the fault is with the person who gave her her information, or the information itself, rather than her for not doing her own due diligence.

Either way, I'm still happy to see her give something of an apology. It takes her to swallow a lot of pride for that, which tells me a lot about her. It's definitely better than her dying on the hill of false information; becoming a martyr because of her own arrogance.

CrustyBadger

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #237 on: October 19, 2018, 06:03:38 AM »
Interesting that she posted this the same day Vicki Robin (the REAL queen of living within your means) gave her a gentle on-line slapdown:

https://yourmoneyoryourlife.com/suze-orman-fire-movement/

I hadn't read anything by Vickie Robin in over 30 years, when I read YMOYL.   I didn't know that she had gone through periods of cancer and disability.

Because of my husband's severe disability, I have been wondering how people who FIRE plan to be able to manage possible disability.  Many of the strategies that allow people to live frugally seem to depend on having a hale, healthy body and being able to DIY.   Taking care of your own home repairs, biking instead of driving, frugal travel strategies, even picking up items at the thrift store instead of shopping online and having things delivered are things for example my husband is no longer able to do. 

The answer is of course, that he has a spouse who can still do those things.  And that is Vickie's answer as well in the linked article:  she says she managed through periods of disability and illness with the help of her friends and social network.   I do think that needs to be included in people's plans for FIRE. 

In addition, the disabilities she mentioned dealing with were limited in time.  Friends will be willing to help you with activities of daily living (getting dressed, fed, washed, getting to your appointments etc.) for short periods of time, but it is unlikely that they would be available for the rest of your life!   So relying on your social circle to care for you should you become disabled might not work out in the long term.

ysette9

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #238 on: October 19, 2018, 07:29:30 AM »
What a lovely article by Vickie. Thank you for sharing. She offers a really nice perspective on someone who has reflected a lot on the emotional side of FIRE and not just the hard numbers like us geeks. I feel like we benefit from sitting at her knee and listening to her wisdom.

ixtap

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #239 on: October 19, 2018, 08:17:21 AM »
New article from Suze! We were so close to getting am apology/"I was wrong"

http://amp.timeinc.net/time/money/5428520/suze-orman-fire-movement

Why doesn't someone just link her the Trinity study and then she has to fight statistics instead of rhetoric: "25x income isn't enough forever"

Her issue isn't withdrawal rates; her issue is the idea that people could be content without an ever increasing lifestyle.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #240 on: October 19, 2018, 08:23:42 AM »
To be fair, the 4% rule doesn't account for disastrous events of the type Suze is concerned about.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #241 on: October 19, 2018, 08:46:57 AM »
To be fair, the 4% rule doesn't account for disastrous events of the type Suze is concerned about.

The 4% Rule doesn't say anything at all about how or what you spend your money on or how much you should budget. That's a whole different process in FIRE planning. You can account for disastrous events a number of ways and build them into your FIRE budget and your spending under the 4% Rule.

sol

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #242 on: October 19, 2018, 09:36:15 AM »
To be fair, the 4% rule doesn't account for disastrous events of the type Suze is concerned about.

Of course it does.  It accounts for world wars, global depressions, famines, oil embargoes, bank failures, and pandemics.  The 4% rule has worked through all of these things and more.

If you mean the 4% rule doesn't work if you personally choose to spend more than 4%, that's something different.  But if you can stick to that inflation-adjusted 4%, it pretty much doesn't matter what else happens in the world.  Historically, 4% has survived through all of them.

MrOnyx

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #243 on: October 19, 2018, 09:39:17 AM »
That's it, and it's something that we often forget. The 4% WR is safe in an absolute worst case scenario. As long as the post-FIRE future doesn't bring us the worst economic conditions we've ever seen - superseding the Great Depression - then 4% will be fine.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #244 on: October 19, 2018, 09:46:52 AM »
The 4% rule is safe 95% of the time.   
US wars (no homeland destruction) are NOT a cause of failure.  Non-US YMMV. 
Long term inflation coupled with equity stagnation DOES cause failure (ie 1966).

mizzourah2006

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #245 on: October 19, 2018, 09:54:09 AM »
Remember, research looking at the 4% rule in every other developed country outside of the US market has not fared nearly as well. So there is always the possibility that we turn into Japan in 10-15 years. Having said that, most people aren't retiring at 35-40 and not earning another dime for the rest of their lives, so even if that does happen, it's unlikely to send someone into poverty.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 09:56:41 AM by mizzourah2006 »

sol

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #246 on: October 19, 2018, 10:01:11 AM »
The 4% rule is safe 95% of the time.   
US wars (no homeland destruction) are NOT a cause of failure.  Non-US YMMV. 
Long term inflation coupled with equity stagnation DOES cause failure (ie 1966).

Right, 95% of the time is not 100% of the time and I agree it's important to look at the specifics of the failure cases.  Global wars have not caused portfolio failures.  Stagflation has, but I think we're much more attuned to that threat today than we were in the past, and are more adept at using monetary policy to avoid that scenario.

Also, 4% is safe 95% of the time for 30 year periods.  I intend to live off my portfolio for longer than 30 years.  Fortunately I have SS after only 20 more years.

On the bright side, the average expectation of someone retiring on the 4% rule is that their money will actually grow over time. 
In 95% of cases the money survives 30 years. 
In 5% of cases the money does not survive 30 years (without spending reductions).
And in 50% of cases, the median future expectation, the money grows.  In fact, if you want to just play the long term averages for 30 year periods, we should all be planning on SWRs closer to 6%.  That's the withdrawal amount that is "correct" for surviving and average of 30 years.  If you're withdrawing less than 6% per year, then you're more likely to have extra money after 30 years than you are to run out before 30 years are up.

Remember, research looking at the 4% rule in every other developed country outside of the US market has not fared nearly as well.

This is true, but the equivalent in most other countries is like 3.5%.  I don't think it's a huge difference, given the flexibilities this crowd demands of retirees anyway.

Also, America is very much not 1991 Japan.  Let's not dramatize the worst case scenarios.  Japan's market collapse, often cited as something Americans need to protect against, came immediately after a period in which their stock market saw 75% annual growth for six years in a row.  We're a long way from that level of jeopardy.

ysette9

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #247 on: October 19, 2018, 10:01:38 AM »
Remember, research looking at the 4% rule in every other developed country outside of the US market has not fared nearly as well. So there is always the possibility that we turn into Japan in 10-15 years. Having said that, most people aren't retiring at 35-40 and not earning another dime for the rest of their lives, so even if that does happen, it's unlikely to send someone into poverty.
Fortunately for us we are able to buy into diversified all-world stock index funds which can hopefully mitigate some of his risk. I realize country economies are more interconnected than before, but they don’t move in lock-step with each other.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #248 on: October 19, 2018, 10:34:27 AM »
To be fair, the 4% rule doesn't account for disastrous events of the type Suze is concerned about.

Of course it does.  It accounts for world wars, global depressions, famines, oil embargoes, bank failures, and pandemics.  The 4% rule has worked through all of these things and more.

If you mean the 4% rule doesn't work if you personally choose to spend more than 4%, that's something different.  But if you can stick to that inflation-adjusted 4%, it pretty much doesn't matter what else happens in the world.  Historically, 4% has survived through all of them.
I suppose I should have expounded a bit more. You're right that the 4% covers widespread disasters, but it doesn't account for individual disasters of the type Suze mentions--major medical issues, long-term care, etc.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #249 on: October 19, 2018, 10:41:24 AM »


Worth a repost [Thanks Maizeman!] to get some perspective on what you should really be worried about.



This ^^ one is for old people like me....the contrast is even more stark.