Author Topic: Suze Orman hates FIRE  (Read 23381 times)

Cassie

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #150 on: October 05, 2018, 11:54:21 AM »
totally agree with your exit plan S. We would never retire if we had to pay for long term care for 2 people.  Ugh!

Slee_stack

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #151 on: October 05, 2018, 12:42:30 PM »
MMM has just officially weighed in with his own October post.

Still Being

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #152 on: October 05, 2018, 12:48:24 PM »
MMM has just officially weighed in with his own October post.

It's like they're all working together to churn up some activity :P /conspiracy

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/05/the-fire-movement/

Slee_stack

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #153 on: October 05, 2018, 12:51:00 PM »
So whose advice do you discount or not and why?

Mine. I am unimpeachable and incorruptible.

...just kidding.

Everyone's. Discount Suze's claim that you'll never be happy if you retire unless you have an 8 figure net worth because she probably can't wrap her head around not living such a posh lifestyle anymore. Discount some of what the FIRE community says because they have a vested interest and making FIRE broadly appealing.

No one is 100% correct about everything. I'm pretty critical of a lot of what Suze said in the podcast. It was cringey listening to her hijack the podcast and turn it into one of her TV show segments. But I understand the criticisms she is making in broad terms. I think it is a mistake to look at a blogger's bare bones spending that may or may not give the full picture of what a cool life they lead, multiply by 25, and think that financial security is having $700K.

Not everyone in the FIRE community is doing that. I'm certainly not. But I think some people are, and I full expect them to get burned when the other shoe drops (LTC hits, we end this historically long bull market run, etc.)

When that happens, Suze Orman will proclaim that she was right. But we'll know that she was only kind of half right.
I don't disagree with your viewpoint.  I also default to skepticism in all things.

At the same time , I am extremely math/statistics biased.   Yes, there is risk in everything and 99%+ confidence is...1% uncertain.

However, we all bet whenever we make any decision.

From what I've read in these forums, most people are running the numbers and going with fairly high confidence scenarios.

I'm not sure how much additional effort (ie work) is worth moving from 95 to 99 to 99.9 to 99.99.  As Suze points out, if you are truly happy working, you may as well aim for 99.999999+.  I think MMM would agree with that too.

Everyone has to pick their line and pull the ripcord.  The alternative is no RE....which has its own confidence problems as the chance of death increases.

Anyway, after thinking about it, I like some of Suze's points if only to ensure I've accounted for them or am comfortable ignoring them altogether.

bacchi

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #154 on: October 05, 2018, 01:42:36 PM »
In every other instance in human history, technological advances lead to greater efficiency, economic advances, societal advances, and frequently improved employment conditions. While some jobs may not exist in the future because of AI, many other jobs are likely to be created, some of which do not exist today, while others will be changed or expanded by AI.

It's already happening.

In developed countries, we've outsourced a lot of our factory jobs and they've been replaced with service jobs. In the past ~10 years, there have been more and more "luxury" service jobs, which are jobs doing things that people used to do by themselves. For example, instacart because who wants to go to an actual grocery store to get your own groceries? Or any food delivery service because walking down the street to get a burger is too much time and effort. Just use UberEats.

In fact, it could create more opportunities to become FI for those willing to do things themselves and who avoid the trendiest option (.e.g., the latest flagship phone).

bacchi

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #155 on: October 05, 2018, 01:54:00 PM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-biggest-financial-mistake-you-could-ever-make-according-to-suze-orman-2018-10-02

^ We're all just a part of generating clickbait, traffic for websites, impressions, views... somehow it turns into revenue for Paula, Suze and MarketWatch which funds the cycle.

Solution: Install adblock and, if you really want to avoid ads, noscript. Deny google analytics and google syndication.

I recently used a computer without adblock and holy-shit what a mess regular sites are. An annoying top ad blaring away, a side ad or 3 waiting for their chance, and anytime you search for something (a crawl space vent, in this case), an ad follows you around. It's like a carnival with lights and neon and barkers all over the place.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #156 on: October 05, 2018, 05:09:27 PM »
Been thinking about this all day at work.

I actually completely agree. I don't think that 500k or even a 1million in your 30s and never working again is a good idea and I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it. Dave Ramsey said a similiar thing, where he mentioned that he does not believe in financial independance.

But I DO believe that the path most FIRE people take is the right one and something a lot more of us should be doing.

Well some people I think.

Rejecting materialism. Not keeping up with the joneses. Looking to spend more time doing what you love. And working to gain freedom are what life is about. And I think that is awesome. And a lot of us are working toward that end.

But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance, and eventually one would change careers and pursue work that is more fullfilling albeit more risky.

Think, what if instead of working in an office as an accountant you could be a massager for fashion models, a business ceo, or an island caretaker? There are lots of things in the world to do and ways to contribute. Saying that you just won't for some reason is I don't think is good.

I also am not a fan of some of the tricks people use to retire without gaining value. Things like churning or financing while investing. I think that, in the case of a calamity, they will compound and make your life so so so much worse. And also if you think about the idea behind it. It is trying to gain value by doing nothing, using a simple mathemetical trick that is often thought to be clever. IT isn't. It just adds to risk. And when shit happens it will be much worse.

So yeah. I believe in the Fire movement but for me it is more financial freedom not financial independance . I don't want to be independant. I want to be a part and take part in the world. But under my own terms.


bacchi

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2018, 07:47:39 PM »
But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance,

Oh, it's totally fulfilling. Playing video games, playing board games, reading, laying around with the cats -- it's like college all over again. One can even choose to take a class and hang out at a coffee shop. During the day! When others are in an "all hands" meeting and snoozing through another power point! (Talk about not adding value....)

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I also am not a fan of some of the tricks people use to retire without gaining value. Things like churning or financing while investing. I think that, in the case of a calamity, they will compound and make your life so so so much worse. And also if you think about the idea behind it. It is trying to gain value by doing nothing, using a simple mathemetical trick that is often thought to be clever. IT isn't. It just adds to risk. And when shit happens it will be much worse.

How could churning make things worse when SHTF? Get a card, put spend on it, reap the bonus, and sock-drawer said card. Cash from the bank account goes to payoff the card, as it normally does. The difference is that one earns 60,000 miles for $3000 and the other earns 3000 miles for $3000. If the market nose dives, the cash is still there. ???

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #158 on: October 05, 2018, 08:50:44 PM »
But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance,

Oh, it's totally fulfilling. Playing video games, playing board games, reading, laying around with the cats -- it's like college all over again. One can even choose to take a class and hang out at a coffee shop. During the day! When others are in an "all hands" meeting and snoozing through another power point! (Talk about not adding value....)

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I love doing all of those things, but they get boring after a while. Not working you are just sort of "existing" not participating in any kind of community. Not building a community. Nothing. There is no challenge. No reasoning. I'd rather not.

Further, not every job is dry. You could sell balloons. You could have a youtube channel making ASMR videos. You could make sailboat sails. Just do something. I mean if you think about it all of teh FIRE people that brought us into this concept are themselves bloggers. I'm not saying you need to make a LOT of money, but if you are doing anything meaningful that others are enjoying, you will make something. And when it is high quality, no reason not to get paid.



How could churning make things worse when SHTF? Get a card, put spend on it, reap the bonus, and sock-drawer said card. Cash from the bank account goes to payoff the card, as it normally does. The difference is that one earns 60,000 miles for $3000 and the other earns 3000 miles for $3000. If the market nose dives, the cash is still there. ???


I've said this a bunch of times. Churning adds risk. Lets say a big life calamity happens. If you have 20 credit cards, you are ever so much more likely to utilize them when you are emotional and not properly thinking straight. This is compounded if you have it in your head that you are using them to avoid dipping into your investments. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying some people don't do it for a long time without any issues.

It just changes the probability of how things could happen. And it is important to respect that. Remember you messing up with your credit cards are what the credit card companies want and have literally engineered everything about them to take advantage of. From their marketing to their legal terms . They are waiting for you to make a mistake.

bacchi

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #159 on: October 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM »
But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance,

Oh, it's totally fulfilling. Playing video games, playing board games, reading, laying around with the cats -- it's like college all over again. One can even choose to take a class and hang out at a coffee shop. During the day! When others are in an "all hands" meeting and snoozing through another power point! (Talk about not adding value....)


I love doing all of those things, but they get boring after a while. Not working you are just sort of "existing" not participating in any kind of community. Not building a community. Nothing. There is no challenge. No reasoning. I'd rather not.

Whaaaa? Some of those video games are totally a challenge. And have you tried to outnap a cat? Very difficult.

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Further, not every job is dry. You could sell balloons. You could have a youtube channel making ASMR videos. You could make sailboat sails. Just do something. I mean if you think about it all of teh FIRE people that brought us into this concept are themselves bloggers. I'm not saying you need to make a LOT of money, but if you are doing anything meaningful that others are enjoying, you will make something. And when it is high quality, no reason not to get paid.

Ha, that doesn't really recommend blogging to me. In fact, it's a sign that some of those bloggers may not actually be FIRE and *ahem* need income from blogging. Perception is reality and all.

Besides, why do we always have to "do something?" What's wrong with just "existing?"


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How could churning make things worse when SHTF? Get a card, put spend on it, reap the bonus, and sock-drawer said card. Cash from the bank account goes to payoff the card, as it normally does. The difference is that one earns 60,000 miles for $3000 and the other earns 3000 miles for $3000. If the market nose dives, the cash is still there. ???


I've said this a bunch of times. Churning adds risk. Lets say a big life calamity happens. If you have 20 credit cards, you are ever so much more likely to utilize them when you are emotional and not properly thinking straight.

I think those people would do that regardless, with or without 20 cards. Churners use spreadsheets and aren't the type of people who will go off their rocker and buy a lot of shit when their dog gets hit by a car or when a parent is diagnosed with cancer. Of course, I don't know that many churners. Maybe others use shopping as an emotional blanket.

I have known people who cashed out their 401ks and traveled after losing a job in 2008 (oops -- bad timing) but they weren't churners. They performed that task just fine with 3 cards.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 09:47:14 PM by bacchi »

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #160 on: October 05, 2018, 10:25:00 PM »
I don't think that 500k or even a 1million in your 30s and never working again is a good idea and I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it.
...

But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance, and eventually one would change careers and pursue work that is more fullfilling albeit more risky.

So it sounds like you think anyone who FIREs who shouldn't will ultimately decide that life has gotten boring and find some more fulfilling work. If you are indeed right, then what's to worry about when it comes to folks aiming to FIRE in their 30s? If you're wrong, they're happily existing, as bacchi describes. And if you're right, then FIREing is the transition that allows them to move from work that burns them out to work that gives their life meaning.

Either way, sounds a lot better to at least try FIRE young than to not.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #161 on: October 05, 2018, 10:42:03 PM »
I think both my ideas are hypthesis's, since we are all different.

I think it is hard to truly know what we all want in life and life takes twists and turns.

I guess the thing that worries me is I see a growing sentiment of people seeking fire as a way out of the boredome of their jobs. But I wonder if maybe FIRE isn't some silver bullet. Maybe the issue is the root of the problem of not living a life with enough fulfillment, and that won't necessarily change if you can live off of 500k. And that 500k isn't as secure as those would have you believe.

With that said. I'm nto saying we should all give up. Rather the opposite is true, for the path of FIRE is an awesome one. IT is not giving into consumerism, and earning money for freedom. That is awesome and something to strive for. But we shouldn't let freedom seperate us from others.

Like look at MMM himself. Once he FIREd' he started a community, gave speaking stores, managed his blog and started a coworking space. That is AWESOME. That is getting connected with others. And that is still working. Now he says he is retired and that is fine too.

Now some parts of Suzie Orman's rant I disagree with. Lke if you are fire, you know you are frugal. You probably will not do things like pay for your kids school or get a big house. Not if you can not afford it. That is what gets me. People say things such as "How can you possibly fire when saving is so hard." And that is one thing this community has got down. We help each other spend less and earn more, and that is great. We prove that the whole, "You can't get ahead in life." Victim mentality is BS. And I love that.

But I don't want us thinking we are somehow special or smarter because of this. That is not something I am a fan of . It is not as compassionate and will draw people away.

mancityfan

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2018, 05:43:25 AM »
Fear sells. Suze Orman is a sales person. She is selling her books.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2018, 08:27:46 AM »
Been thinking about this all day at work.

I actually completely agree. I don't think that 500k or even a 1million in your 30s and never working again is a good idea and I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it.

Many here aren't looking to FIRE in their 30's, they're looking to their 40's or 50's or more.

When I FIRE, my plan is to NEVER work again within 12 months after FIREing if not immediately depending on how it plays out with my job.

I wouldn't worry too much about what other people think is best for their FIRE plans.   And being "financially independent" doesn't mean you are isolating yourself from society.

I used to watch Suzie's show quite a few years ago but can't say I ever learned anything of value from her.  She's off the deep end about this topic - totally outside of her league.  I think she was correct only on things which are obvious to almost everyone else already, like save as much as you can while you're young and working.  Duh!


Slow2FIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2018, 08:44:59 AM »
...
I think it is hard to truly know what we all want in life and life takes twists and turns.
...

People say things such as "How can you possibly fire when saving is so hard." And that is one thing this community has got down...

But I don't want us thinking we are somehow special or smarter because of this. That is not something I am a fan of . It is not as compassionate and will draw people away.

Well...maybe not smarter, but certainly a little special in a way in the ability to do what is hard, uncomfortable and unconventional.

It may be a simple path, but it isn't an easy path for many people.

Just like it is easy for someone to claim that it is simple to lose weight and get fit and no one is special for being able to do that.  However, clearly it is hard to lose weight and get fit as it takes work and changes come on incrementally over a long period of time when everyone would much rather find a silver bullet to get there in a week (or 6 weeks or 90 days).

Does the fact of very few people in the USA having reached FI indicate that it *is* hard and you may be a little special to put yourself through the hard parts to get there?  Perhaps it is only my own biases which cause me to think that way as I had to reform my entire world view, change my habits, change my thinking, and adjust my life in my mid-30s.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #165 on: October 06, 2018, 09:11:39 AM »
Like look at MMM himself. Once he FIREd' he started a community, gave speaking stores, managed his blog and started a coworking space. That is AWESOME. That is getting connected with others. And that is still working. Now he says he is retired and that is fine too.

But I don't think MMM quit is job planning to start a blog or build a co-working space. And if he hadn't retired without specific plans (or at least not the plans that he ended up acting on), none of those great things would have happened.

So I think it is completely okay for people to plan to FIRE without any plans to do productive things afterwards if they don't want to. If it turns out they do feel bored or unfulfilled, they can always find productive things to do with their time. And if it turns out they are completely happy continuing to simply exist, then by definition the problem you're concerned about doesn't exist in their particular case.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #166 on: October 06, 2018, 01:37:20 PM »
Well planning is the key. In fact that is something very interesting if you think about it. Going FIRE takes planning, preparation, and discipline. It changes you and your behaviour.  More and more, I am learning that money is about behaviour. And behaviour takes time to change. Habits take months or years to form and when they do they stick with you.

So this is why i think it is kind of weird to frugally save and work hard and then suddenly change. I think that could result in a lifestyle that is unfullfilling. Esp. if you worked hard to get to that point. I also think if you are miserable at your job and you are FIRING to change that it probably won't. Probably there are other reasons to change.

In fact this is the crux. I don't think the idea is that FIRE is some goal that, when it happens, will change our lives. I think it is the process. Part of the process is growth and improving. And that should continue to happen, even after FIRE.

I should say. I'm all for saving, rejecting consumerism, and having a high savings rate. I think Suze would agree with that. And I say that if you are down to work hard while doing this, there should be no reason to not continue working. Once you have a lot saved, instead of just quitting look to find work that is more fullfilling. I think that is a pathway to living a life that is beyond your wildest dreams.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #167 on: October 06, 2018, 02:53:01 PM »
Well planning is the key. In fact that is something very interesting if you think about it. Going FIRE takes planning, preparation, and discipline. It changes you and your behaviour.  More and more, I am learning that money is about behaviour. And behaviour takes time to change. Habits take months or years to form and when they do they stick with you.

So this is why i think it is kind of weird to frugally save and work hard and then suddenly change. I think that could result in a lifestyle that is unfullfilling. Esp. if you worked hard to get to that point. I also think if you are miserable at your job and you are FIRING to change that it probably won't. Probably there are other reasons to change.

So I now understand your view to be that people who FIRE and don't have a plan to do something else productive right away likely won't ever seek out other work but just continue to exist. <-- this is a very useful term bacchi!

That's a perfectly valid position to take. It just seems to contradict your statement from an earlier post.

But I do think it is a bit misguided to retire and just do nothing. I think that would not be a fulfilling existance, and eventually one would change careers and pursue work that is more fullfilling albeit more risky.

BTDretire

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #168 on: October 06, 2018, 02:57:45 PM »
 I suggest that most of us here have a huge advantage over Suze Orman,
 we can live happily on $50,000 a year, I suspect she would be miserable.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #169 on: October 06, 2018, 03:36:46 PM »
And I say that if you are down to work hard while doing this, there should be no reason to not continue working. Once you have a lot saved, instead of just quitting look to find work that is more fullfilling. I think that is a pathway to living a life that is beyond your wildest dreams.
To hell with that.  My current work is plenty fulfilling.  But, I rather spend my retirement years actually retired and doing what I want to be doing (many things), not to continue working until I'm 70 or beyond!   I couldn't care less what Suzie thinks.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2018, 05:01:38 PM »
I mean we are all different right. While you can look at statistics of what happens to people, it is hard to know feelings.

This is why I say listen to those that are older and wiser. When I do a LOT of them say that a life with no work isn't as fulfilling. This is why so many rich people still work even though they need to. They could be wrong, but i still say to listen and consider.

Personally if I am able to FIRE, and I think I will. That will be when my career. Begins! I'll do fashion shoots, see if I could get back into physics research, do educational shit, do car shit. Maybe philantrophy. There is so much I want ot try that is different from my current career. But what I do now is both giving me a skillset that I think is super valuable and in an industry that I believe to be promising. Also they pay well. So there is that. I mean part of me wants to stay with my company or my industry and see if I could eventually become a VP or CTO or something. If that happens, hell yeah I'm working till I'm 60 or 70!

PKFFW

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2018, 05:11:50 PM »
I mean we are all different right. While you can look at statistics of what happens to people, it is hard to know feelings.

This is why I say listen to those that are older and wiser. When I do a LOT of them say that a life with no work isn't as fulfilling. This is why so many rich people still work even though they need to. They could be wrong, but i still say to listen and consider.

Personally if I am able to FIRE, and I think I will. That will be when my career. Begins! I'll do fashion shoots, see if I could get back into physics research, do educational shit, do car shit. Maybe philantrophy. There is so much I want ot try that is different from my current career. But what I do now is both giving me a skillset that I think is super valuable and in an industry that I believe to be promising. Also they pay well. So there is that. I mean part of me wants to stay with my company or my industry and see if I could eventually become a VP or CTO or something. If that happens, hell yeah I'm working till I'm 60 or 70!
I think the misunderstanding here is over what constitutes work.

You say you would do "fashion shoots, see if I could get back into physics research, do educational shit, do car shit. Maybe philantrophy".  To me that sounds like you would indulge in your hobbies rather than "work" in the traditional sense of the word.  I mean doing "educational shit" and "car shit" at least doesn't sound like you have a plan to make a contribution to society is some sort of truly worthwhile way with those things unless I'm missing something.

So it seems to me that you think people should pursue something they are truly interested in rather than just lay around doing "nothing".  I tend to agree with you on that however I wont discount the possibility that someone else might be truly interested in "just existing" and find that pursuit to be all they require to be happy.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #172 on: October 06, 2018, 05:43:07 PM »
I mean we are all different right. While you can look at statistics of what happens to people, it is hard to know feelings.

This is why I say listen to those that are older and wiser.

Alright. My own philosophy is somewhat different, which is that, given that each of us is so different advice from individual older folks won't necessarily apply to each person. Once you are FI, if just existing sounds appealing to a person, I think there is very little downside to trying it for a while.

Either they will discover it isn't for them, and they can then go and do something else without having that yearning for the peace of just being without any obligations or expectations or schedules.

Or they will discover that for their personal circumstances and mindset just existing brings them a great deal of joy, in which case it will be really good that they at least gave it a shot.

Either way, if just existing sounds appealing to an individual, I see very little risk of harm from having them try it to see how happens, and the potential for significant unhappiness (either yearning for something they don't have, even if having it wouldn't make them happy, or failing to pursue a path which would have made them happy) from counseling them against doing so.

lhamo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #173 on: October 06, 2018, 08:52:39 PM »
Well, I'm one of those "older and [hopefully] wiser" FIRE-ees -- left paid employment mid-2015 and aside from two days worth of billable hours on one contracting job that I dropped like a hot potato when there was a management change to a psychoboss who would have made it miserable, I haven't worked for pay since.  And it has been great.  I was able to spend significant time/energy helping my mom as she declined and eventually passed from congestive heart failure.  Have spent time hanging out with/supporting my teenage kids (one of whom started college at 15).  A bit of time volunteering at the local food bank (though I stopped that when I threw my shoulder out).  And a lot of time cooking, walking, biking, gardening, reading, and doing sudokus.  Not bored yet.  And if I do get bored, I most likely will find other stuff to do that doesn't require a firm schedule.  Having the freedom to do what I want to do with just about every day is a luxury I am loathe to give up now that I have experienced it.  Kind of like post-coursework fellowship-funded grad school, but without the damn thesis/job search hanging over your head.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #174 on: October 06, 2018, 09:31:26 PM »
I mean we are all different right. While you can look at statistics of what happens to people, it is hard to know feelings.

This is why I say listen to those that are older and wiser. When I do a LOT of them say that a life with no work isn't as fulfilling. This is why so many rich people still work even though they need to. They could be wrong, but i still say to listen and consider.

Personally if I am able to FIRE, and I think I will. That will be when my career. Begins! I'll do fashion shoots, see if I could get back into physics research, do educational shit, do car shit. Maybe philantrophy. There is so much I want ot try that is different from my current career. But what I do now is both giving me a skillset that I think is super valuable and in an industry that I believe to be promising. Also they pay well. So there is that. I mean part of me wants to stay with my company or my industry and see if I could eventually become a VP or CTO or something. If that happens, hell yeah I'm working till I'm 60 or 70!
I think the misunderstanding here is over what constitutes work.

You say you would do "fashion shoots, see if I could get back into physics research, do educational shit, do car shit. Maybe philantrophy".  To me that sounds like you would indulge in your hobbies rather than "work" in the traditional sense of the word.  I mean doing "educational shit" and "car shit" at least doesn't sound like you have a plan to make a contribution to society is some sort of truly worthwhile way with those things unless I'm missing something.

So it seems to me that you think people should pursue something they are truly interested in rather than just lay around doing "nothing".  I tend to agree with you on that however I wont discount the possibility that someone else might be truly interested in "just existing" and find that pursuit to be all they require to be happy.

I have always wanted to start a fashion label. that would constitute creating a business, selling clothing, doing shoots with instagram models, doing shoots myself All of this is hella work.

Physics Research would potentially be self funded but i could apply for grants. Might go back to grad school. The thing is I practically do math research my current job, so I sort of scratch that itch already.

There are so many ways to go with education. Inspirational work. Online videos. Tutoring. This could run the gamut of borline volunterring toward setting up programs that would require grant money, crowdfunding, or other sorts of investing.

And car things I'm not sure. I am really into tuner cars and subarus especially. But that is an EXPENSIVE hobby. However there is a lot of work to be done here. I have a friend that installs body kits, another that sells wheels, many friends do shoots with instagram models. Another has a fashion label. I have friends that change peoples' oil. Some fix breaks and install lighting fixture. Gosh there is so much you could do here and so many ways of making money. The interesting thing about cars is you get tuned into a community and just find out what people want.

I think if you are part of a community and you just listen and put yourself out there you will find plenty of ways of helping people well enough to make them pay for you.

And that is what I think that being FIRE could help you do. Just get connected, and help others.


PKFFW

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #175 on: October 06, 2018, 09:54:43 PM »
I have always wanted to start a fashion label. that would constitute creating a business, selling clothing, doing shoots with instagram models, doing shoots myself All of this is hella work.

Physics Research would potentially be self funded but i could apply for grants. Might go back to grad school. The thing is I practically do math research my current job, so I sort of scratch that itch already.

There are so many ways to go with education. Inspirational work. Online videos. Tutoring. This could run the gamut of borline volunterring toward setting up programs that would require grant money, crowdfunding, or other sorts of investing.

And car things I'm not sure. I am really into tuner cars and subarus especially. But that is an EXPENSIVE hobby. However there is a lot of work to be done here. I have a friend that installs body kits, another that sells wheels, many friends do shoots with instagram models. Another has a fashion label. I have friends that change peoples' oil. Some fix breaks and install lighting fixture. Gosh there is so much you could do here and so many ways of making money. The interesting thing about cars is you get tuned into a community and just find out what people want.

I think if you are part of a community and you just listen and put yourself out there you will find plenty of ways of helping people well enough to make them pay for you.

And that is what I think that being FIRE could help you do. Just get connected, and help others.
Any and all of that you could be doing right now.  No need to FIRE for it.  Start a business, become a car salesman, mechanic, painter, etc or go teach physics.  I'm sure you could find a way to be paid for any of those.  So if that's what you want to do, I don't really see what it has to do with FIRE or why you would need to FIRE before doing any of it. 

In fact, if you are not willing to do any of it now, then it seems to me they are really just passions of yours that you would like to monetize at some point without having to rely on them to pay your expenses.  There is nothing wrong with that but I still think it is where the misunderstanding comes in.  Your interest is to be actively pursing what you are passionate about.  Some other people might be just as passionate about taking it easy and "just existing". 

And as another poster mentioned, if they find, as you suggest they will, that just existing is not fulfilling then they will be free to purse any other interest they like.  There is no point for them to assume what works for others is what will absolutely definitely work for them and therefore they should rush to fill their days with what others in society deem to be fulfilling and worthwhile.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #176 on: October 06, 2018, 10:13:30 PM »
Yeah I am considering doing some of those things but they would be risky compared to my current job. And even then. My current work is fulfilling on its own right. I think for work it is a combination of risk, reward, and enjoyment you  need to balance. And right now where I am is that. It allows me to consistant save without worry enough so that in the future I would feel pursuing something else if I feel like it.  Really my whole thing was just an exercise to point out that almost anything that serves others can be monetized if you work at it. And I think that is behind what Suzie was talking about. Work and, instead of seeking to retire retire, take steps to


I dunno man. Just working hard at a job you are so unpassionate about you want to leave immediately and then doing nothing. That just sounds like an uninspiring way of living. But hey if that is truly what people want who am I to say otherwise. REally I am here to learn more about saving than anything.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #177 on: October 06, 2018, 10:36:21 PM »
I dunno man. Just working hard at a job you are so unpassionate about you want to leave immediately and then doing nothing. That just sounds like an uninspiring way of living.

Who says they want to "do nothing?"  I think even the previous poster mentioned playing video games and the challenge of outnapping cats.  But, there are plenty of things people are interested in doing after FIREing that don't involve continuing to work.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-do-you-plan-to-do-in-fire/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-am-afraid-i-will-be-bored-when-i-fire/

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #178 on: October 06, 2018, 10:38:40 PM »
I dunno man. Just working hard at a job you are so unpassionate about you want to leave immediately and then doing nothing. That just sounds like an uninspiring way of living. But hey if that is truly what people want who am I to say otherwise.

If you cannot even imagine finding a joyful like in anything other than some kind of work, that sounds like a constrained and colorless life to me.

But if it is truly what you yourself want, I'm certainly not going to question your expertise as the person who knows the most about what does and does not bring joy to you specifically (as is no doubt clear, I do disagree with some of the generalizations you feel apply to all of us participating in the FIRE movement as a whole).

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #179 on: October 06, 2018, 11:45:25 PM »
I dunno man. Just working hard at a job you are so unpassionate about you want to leave immediately and then doing nothing. That just sounds like an uninspiring way of living. But hey if that is truly what people want who am I to say otherwise.

If you cannot even imagine finding a joyful like in anything other than some kind of work, that sounds like a constrained and colorless life to me.

But if it is truly what you yourself want, I'm certainly not going to question your expertise as the person who knows the most about what does and does not bring joy to you specifically (as is no doubt clear, I do disagree with some of the generalizations you feel apply to all of us participating in the FIRE movement as a whole).

Actually rather the opposite. I thought most people in the fire community actually did plan on doing some sort of work afterward.

I see it this way. By working you are serving others. And that connects you to them. So to not do something means you are sort of isolated. And that is what I think can drive peopel to madness. Just staying at home all day and not really participating in the world. I also think that the number of ways you can participate is unlimited and varied and that is different from being isolated. I mean you can say you just play video games and watch tv, but that is still participating. Albeit in a passive and. And that is easy to do. There isn't any challenge to it. We did it all growing up, after work, and on weekends.

I mean what turned me on to FIRE was how MMM stated that he still blogs (and makes money doing so), builds things, supports his wife's business, and eventually started a makerspace. That is awesome and i am so in line with that redefinition of retirement. I think orman would probably just state that he is really working though.

But I do see everyone here as being on different walks of life. Like i think the shared experience is our high savings rates but what we plan on doing once we get there spans a gamut.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 11:49:37 PM by shinn497 »

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #180 on: October 07, 2018, 03:10:38 AM »
yeah you are right.

I guess suzie got to me. Also i read shiller's book and it made me super suspicious of the market. Here ill give this thing a chance again and look more into what a lot of you guys are doing.

BeanCounter

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #181 on: October 07, 2018, 06:43:13 AM »
I had a really hard time following Suzieís points on that interview, and I really wish Paula would have pushed back more. Or at least encouraged her to form a coherent argument.

I agree that what people who RE do with their time is irrelevant to the discussion on FIRE because what may or may not be good for one retiree may or may not work for another.
There are some risks to FIRE that I donít think get enough consideration. The first one being access to good, affordable heath insurance. The ACA has helped with that, but itís in life support and itís future is unknown. If you have any sort of assets you donít want to spend one second uninsured. People seem to forget that MMM has a bit of a golden parachute in that he is a Canadian citizen. If the shit really hits the fan health wise I would think he could go back and obtain access to the Canadian health system.
The second issue to FIRE as I see it is the needs of your children or future children. I have experienced with my kids that what I spend on them can change a good bit from year to year and it makes planning the FIRE budget a bit difficult. Iím not okay with telling them I cannot pay for orthodontics, or music lessons, tutors, or college tuition because I chose to stop working.
That being said, I am so tired at nearly 41 of showing up in the office each day. Of losing 10 hours of my time five days a week to someone else. I love the work, I find it meaningful, but with >$2M in assets, itís not enough. But, weíve got to solve the first two issues before both of us can take the leap. And thatís where I think Suzie May have had some decent points (that she failed to explain well)
As far as the so called ďlean-FIREĒ movement, I donít believe that is truly FIRE. Itís a sabbatical or a career change, itís not FIRE.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #182 on: October 07, 2018, 07:16:41 AM »
People seem to forget that MMM has a bit of a golden parachute in that he is a Canadian citizen. If the shit really hits the fan health wise I would think he could go back and obtain access to the Canadian health system.

If he moved to BC for example he would have to pay out of pocket for 6 months for any medical treatment. After that point he'd be able to buy BC health insurance assuming he's allowed to live here. If he has Canadian citizenship that wouldn't be a problem. So if you get a really bad diagnosis you'd have to either get no treatment for 6 months or pay for it yourself until you were eligible for coverage. Health coverage is Canada is for doctor or hospital visits. There is a lot you have to pay for out of pocket still unless you have supplementary insurance.

OTOH MMM has multi-millions of $$ that keep growing every year so presumably he can buy the fanciest health insurance plan in the US anytime he wants. As long as he can't be denied coverage high premiums wouldn't really phase him.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #183 on: October 07, 2018, 07:21:54 AM »
I dunno man. Just working hard at a job you are so unpassionate about you want to leave immediately and then doing nothing.

Doing nothing? What are you talking about? Have you even read the journals of FIREd folks on this forum? I don't see one person that's "doing nothing". The fact that they are not earning money running on the hamster wheel for the economy like a good little brainwashed robot doesn't equate their lives and actions with "nothing" as if only work has worth and value.

Not being able to imagine a life that has value beyond work is sad.

jim555

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #184 on: October 07, 2018, 07:52:44 AM »
The American attitude about work is puzzling.  No work = bum = worthless = scourge on society.  I think it stems from the "Protestant work ethic" that has been ingrained into people.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #185 on: October 07, 2018, 07:55:04 AM »
I think we can safely ignore Suzeís warnings and advice. We should all be saving for early retirement because even if you want to work until you are 70, most employers donít want 70 year old employees. Youíll be too weak and brittle for anything physically demanding. Youíll probably have a hard time understanding technology by the time you are 70 too.  The sharpest 70 year olds I have met are still baffled by computers, smartphones, and the internet. Iíd like to think I will be able to learn new technology at that age, but Iím sure something will be created that young people grok immediately with minimal effort that will completely stimey me.

Iíd rather have a nice nest egg that lets me walk away from work in my 40ís than be sweating it until social security and Medicare are available.

You only know feeble, feeble minded 70 somethings? Both sides of my family, and most of their friends, must be pretty blessed. Statistically, I think that age group can go either way  , but to not know any who are sharp seems like an awfully limited social circle.

Feeble minded is not the phrase I would use, but they are not comfortable using technology unless they have step by step instructions. If anything goes slightly off script, like an unexpected dialog window or message, they usually cannot figure it out on their own. Iím not saying there arenít competent septuagenarian computer users, but I havenít met any in person.

Using my personal anecdote of my parents.  While defiantly not feeble minded they have completely admitted that they can no longer do all of the things physically that they could do at age 67 or that they can still do something physically but they must take longer breaks.  Also they have gotten hurt in the past 5 years vs not before.  My father for instance tore the tendon connecting his hamstring to his knee while tripping over a rock in his yard.  Would his tendon have torn 5 years earlier in the same instances likely not.  FWIW both of my parents have been active all their lives.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #186 on: October 07, 2018, 08:26:04 AM »
yeah you are right.

I guess suzie got to me. Also i read shiller's book and it made me super suspicious of the market. Here ill give this thing a chance again and look more into what a lot of you guys are doing.

Thank you for being willing to reevaluation your position, shinn497.

pecunia

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #187 on: October 07, 2018, 10:11:03 AM »
The American attitude about work is puzzling.  No work = bum = worthless = scourge on society.  I think it stems from the "Protestant work ethic" that has been ingrained into people.

It also comes from the idea that "We" may be paying the bills for that person, their spouse and /or their children.  There is an assumed Societal responsibility to take care of your own.  It also comes from the idea that I "have" to work and don't like it.  Why should the person in question be allowed his freedom?  And,.....sometimes folks who don't work and live under bridges and such smell bad.

Not too puzzling.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #188 on: October 07, 2018, 10:37:13 AM »
As far as the so called ďlean-FIREĒ movement, I donít believe that is truly FIRE. Itís a sabbatical or a career change, itís not FIRE.

True lean-FIRE just means keeping expenses very low, not that you have to ever work again.  It's still FIRE.



BeanCounter

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #189 on: October 07, 2018, 10:50:34 AM »
As far as the so called ďlean-FIREĒ movement, I donít believe that is truly FIRE. Itís a sabbatical or a career change, itís not FIRE.

True lean-FIRE just means keeping expenses very low, not that you have to ever work again.  It's still FIRE.
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice. And this is where I think crazy Suzie might have a valid point. If you lean FIRE and some crazy thing happens that forces you to dip into your principle, how can you keep going without working? And if that happens after youíve sat out of the work world for ten years, what do you do?

jim555

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #190 on: October 07, 2018, 11:13:52 AM »
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice. And this is where I think crazy Suzie might have a valid point. If you lean FIRE and some crazy thing happens that forces you to dip into your principle, how can you keep going without working? And if that happens after youíve sat out of the work world for ten years, what do you do?
I would be considered lean FIRE and I don't feel like it is a sacrifice to spend low.  Worst case situation you make adjustments if you have to, even if that means going back to work.  I can't see spending years more at work to cover every possible bad situation.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #191 on: October 07, 2018, 11:16:53 AM »
As far as the so called ďlean-FIREĒ movement, I donít believe that is truly FIRE. Itís a sabbatical or a career change, itís not FIRE.

True lean-FIRE just means keeping expenses very low, not that you have to ever work again.  It's still FIRE.
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice.

Where do you personally think the spending threshold is between lean-FIRE and regular FIRE?

One of the key realizations people (eventually) get from reading about FIRE is that a lot of their usual spending isn't actually doing anything to increase their happiness, even though they thought it was. Once you achieve that realization, the amount of money you need to avoid feeling like you're having to sacrifice at all drops dramatically.

BeanCounter

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #192 on: October 07, 2018, 11:20:41 AM »
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice. And this is where I think crazy Suzie might have a valid point. If you lean FIRE and some crazy thing happens that forces you to dip into your principle, how can you keep going without working? And if that happens after youíve sat out of the work world for ten years, what do you do?
I would be considered lean FIRE and I don't feel like it is a sacrifice to spend low.  Worst case situation you make adjustments if you have to, even if that means going back to work.  I can't see spending years more at work to cover every possible bad situation.
I think there can be a point somewhere in between. Itís obviously different for everyoneís unique situation.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #193 on: October 07, 2018, 03:51:52 PM »
Thanks for the notes...it will save me time in not listening to it.

Those examples are crap IMO. And if I get board I will find something to do. A job does not define me...ggrrr this type of thing just is annoying...The world is falling apart, we have no control over our money, and if college costs end up being as high as she says then the entire world would have to adjust. Because if it is costs $400K for college then the wages once out of college will have to adjust. That is the most stupid thing I have ever seen. Yes college is expensive...dont study underwater basket weaving and you will be fine.

This is a very good point that often gets overlooked. Expenses associated with room & board is often more than tuition. Saving for tuition for a state school really isn't that big of a deal. Tuition + books should be 35K to 40K for 4 years for many state schools. If you do 2 years of community college you are talking 25K total.

Is it expensive though? Some schools of course are. But I feel like people seem to also include room and board when talking about how expensive college is, which isn't really a fair comparison, because if you decide not to go to school, you still need a place to live and food to eat to survive. The flagship university for my state's in-state tuition and fees is $9,130/yr. That's not cheap or free, but I wouldn't say it's expensive.

My alma mater is even cheaper. For in-state tuition and fees it's $6,368/yr. That's a 4 year degree for just over $25k.

shinn497

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #194 on: October 07, 2018, 05:11:37 PM »
yeah you are right.

I guess suzie got to me. Also i read shiller's book and it made me super suspicious of the market. Here ill give this thing a chance again and look more into what a lot of you guys are doing.

Thank you for being willing to reevaluation your position, shinn497.

I mean I just want to look into others.

Tbh I have always been on the fence on if or how i want to FIRE or not. Even learning about MMM I never had the idea that retirement is sitting on a beach somewhere. 

I do know I want to save and infvest as much as possible for the next 15 years and way more than the normal person. So there is that.

The suzie orman thing is just making me think that I will probably still want ot have an income or even consider just going into entrepreneurship sooner. I mean I would so be willing to work into my 80s for the right job!

DreamFIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #195 on: October 07, 2018, 07:31:21 PM »
As far as the so called ďlean-FIREĒ movement, I donít believe that is truly FIRE. Itís a sabbatical or a career change, itís not FIRE.

True lean-FIRE just means keeping expenses very low, not that you have to ever work again.  It's still FIRE.
Fair enough, but I question if most people can truly maintain that level of spending. Lots of sacrifice. And this is where I think crazy Suzie might have a valid point. If you lean FIRE and some crazy thing happens that forces you to dip into your principle, how can you keep going without working? And if that happens after youíve sat out of the work world for ten years, what do you do?

I was just doing the math.  It looks like a reasonable lean-FIRE SWR for me would be 1.5% SWR of my current stash.  That would give me a few hundred dollars on average per month over barebones expenses for discretionary spending.  That would actually be a bit of an increase in my spending vs. the last decade of my total spending, so I should be able to sustain that if I wanted.  Of course, I'm not planning to lean-FIRE, so I plan to use a SWR closer to 4%.

I mean I would so be willing to work into my 80s for the right job!

That's not something you normally read from members on this forum.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 07:38:01 PM by DreamFIRE »

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #196 on: October 07, 2018, 07:31:57 PM »
Tbh I have always been on the fence on if or how i want to FIRE or not. Even learning about MMM I never had the idea that retirement is sitting on a beach somewhere. 

I do know I want to save and infvest as much as possible for the next 15 years and way more than the normal person. So there is that.

The suzie orman thing is just making me think that I will probably still want ot have an income or even consider just going into entrepreneurship sooner. I mean I would so be willing to work into my 80s for the right job!

Any there is nothing wrong with that if that's how you would like to spend your life.

What I objected to was your position that A) no one would enjoy a life of simply existing, even if that means spending it sitting on a beach somewhere B) despite the fact that you were arguing no one would enjoy such a lifestyle, you also didn't think it make sense for people who thought they might enjoy such a lifestyle to try it and find out for themselves one way or another.

If, after reconsidering, you find that you still want to advocate for that two part position, I'd be happy to will feel obligated to continue to respectfully disagree and continue to point out the inherent contradiction.

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #197 on: October 07, 2018, 08:41:34 PM »
Tbh I have always been on the fence on if or how i want to FIRE or not. Even learning about MMM I never had the idea that retirement is sitting on a beach somewhere. 

We should each be making our "own version of FIRE".  I don't get hung up too much on what other people consider to be FIRE for them.  I may get hung up on one person telling another person to take their definition and shove it...nothing I see here - just something I pushed back against as absurdity on Bogleheads.

Quote
I do know I want to save and infvest as much as possible for the next 15 years and way more than the normal person. So there is that.

A good goal for anyone to have, in my personal opinion - regardless with what one plans to do after achieving FI

Quote
The suzie orman thing is just making me think that I will probably still want ot have an income or even consider just going into entrepreneurship sooner. I mean I would so be willing to work into my 80s for the right job!

We don't always get to have that choice.  Luckily, you are wise enough to save enough money such that whether or not you get to persist as you plan, you'll be okay.  TOO MANY PEOPLE TODAY think "I'll just work until I die, screw all that saving noise"...

Here is the thing, I have a big software project I can't wait to start and I'm slowly building up learning of the specific tools I need.  However, I'll never go back into another software job ever again due to past bad experiences.  Now, if I were FI today, I'd quit my job in a heartbeat and spend a good 2-6 hrs a day 3-4 days a week on my personal software project and I will likely never ever charge any money for it if I decide to "release it" into the wilds.  I'd much rather put it out on an open source platform, but I certainly don't want to be beholden to someone else's release schedules, red tape, SOPs, stupid business requirements that don't even translate into proper software requirements and someone else telling me that they don't want to add features or allow proper testing because they'd rather have a half baked piece of crap put out for revenue when I'm not even finished with the damn product.  When I FI, I don't currently plan to have a Boss ever again (that means no employer and no customer either).

How will I have social circles?  There are many, many meetups for many types of interests.  I may even try to prod some of my friends along a little faster to the point of FI.

I don't need titles, I shouldn't need money (spouse wants to be at 2x LEAN FIRE), and I'm pretty sure I'll be just fine that way.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #198 on: October 07, 2018, 08:58:46 PM »
Looks like an interesting thread, so PTF.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it does help to understand their perspective.  Suze is uber rich PF oldschool, I'm sure to her anyone that ER's in their prime with 5 million or less seems crazy to her since they could be making millions more and those 5 million or less is chump change.  She sees life through her own lens and her life has worked out fine doling out conservative advice.  I'd have been shocked (and impressed with her mental flexibility) if she had considered the possibility that FIRE might be sensible and possibly even rational.  But then again, I've never had much respect for Suze Orman's opinions and she has never added anything new to my PF learning.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #199 on: October 08, 2018, 12:37:26 PM »
Yeah she totally doesn't get the nuance of the FIRE community. She totally went off on how horrible the idea is then came back and basically said all the things we do LOL. And completely out to lunch on what things costs or how on earth the majority of people make by in the world.