Author Topic: Suze Orman hates FIRE  (Read 18591 times)

Yankuba

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Suze Orman hates FIRE
« on: October 01, 2018, 11:10:29 AM »
Suze Orman was a guest on a financial podcast and spent a long time trashing FIRE. The show is here:

http://podcast.affordanything.com/153-hate-fire-movement-suze-orman/

Suze starts at around the 6 minute mark

I took notes on the first HALF so you don't have to listen:

Life happens - cancer, illness, death, accidents - $2 million when that happens is pennies

AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment. Tax brackets will increase to compensate for all the people not working and not paying taxes. Higher tax brackets mean you will keep a smaller % of your portfolio (e.g. 401k)

Healthy people today can live until 90, 95 or 100. long term care in the future will be $30k a month. Suze paid $250k a year for her mom.

Expenses increase over time, especially if you have kids.

Don't forget about inflation whacking away at your portfolio.

Markets can go down, dividends can drop to zero - a 4% withdrawal rate may be too high. Puerto Rico was paying 6% on its bonds before it defaulted.

FIRE before 50 is the biggest mistake you can make in a lifetime.

Need to invest as much as possible when you're young to get the biggest benefits of compounding.

A 3% withdrawal on a $3mil portfolio is fine without black swan events but she tells everyone to work as long as they can in an AREA THAT YOU LOVE.

Don't neglect disability insurance.

After 4-5 years of leisure and travel many people get bored.

Suze thinks it's fine to pursue FIRE in order to be a SAHP. But your child will go to school and get older and you need to fill those holes.

College costs will be $400k pretty soon - do you want to help your kids or not? Many parents choose to spend on their kids rather than retire. The students may not be able to borrow enough to pay for tuition and then the parents have to co-sign.
_______________________________________

I stopped listening at the 45 minute mark



seemsright

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2018, 11:24:22 AM »
Thanks for the notes...it will save me time in not listening to it.

Those examples are crap IMO. And if I get board I will find something to do. A job does not define me...ggrrr this type of thing just is annoying...The world is falling apart, we have no control over our money, and if college costs end up being as high as she says then the entire world would have to adjust. Because if it is costs $400K for college then the wages once out of college will have to adjust. That is the most stupid thing I have ever seen. Yes college is expensive...dont study underwater basket weaving and you will be fine.

Cassie

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2018, 11:30:33 AM »
She is telling everyone to work until 70.  Some people wonít live that long.  I have lost 3 friends between 59-67 all to cancer.  They all did everything right diet and exercise included. You just donít know when your time is up.

ketchup

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2018, 11:31:13 AM »
This is depressingly hilarious.

"Am I out of touch? No, it is the children who are wrong."

undercover

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 11:31:36 AM »
Blah blah blah. If she had nothing controversial to say to sensible advice, sheíd be out of a job.

Regarding AI - sure, but everything will be cheaper in theory and the rich will still be paying the majority of taxes for this.

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 11:33:23 AM »
Some people can never get past the mental barrier of not needing or wanting to work in the traditional sense.  Orman is one of them.
Of all those points listed, most she either misinterprets/misunderstands (e.g. any x% withdraw strategy based on initial assets already factors in inflation, the line about puerto rico paying 6% before default...) or is predicated on fear (e.g. black swans, $2MM medical bills beyond health care).  The most likely scenario is that we'll have more money than we started during our final years, so paying $250k/year for end of life care isn't an impossibility.

FIRE-ees, ought to do their due diligence.
Included in their costs should be should be some medical insurance, multiple layers of safety and some reasonable plans for how to deal with things when the SHTF.
But the alternative is just working forever, spending like a mindless drone and dying with an excess.  How is that good advice either?

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 11:35:34 AM »
AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment. Tax brackets will increase to compensate for all the people not working and not paying taxes. Higher tax brackets mean you will keep a smaller % of your portfolio (e.g. 401k)

This seems like a strikingly important reason to PURSUE FI as fast and as strongly as feasible for your individual circumstances.

Yankuba

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 11:43:03 AM »

bendixso123

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 11:43:46 AM »
Love the part about making sure you do something you love. That's really easy for someone who has a successful book series to say. The rest of us are out here working for people who we don't really respect doing things we don't really care for because we know it will produce a reliable income.

The point is to spend less so you can build up a big ball of investment income and then say FU to whatever it is you don't like about your current situation, get out of it, then transition to something you love. If you have to FIRE in order to do that (because the thing you really want to do is super risky), then fine. That's your way of solving your particular job dissatisfaction problem.

Nothing in life is 100% safe. But you're not getting out this thing alive anyway, so who the hell cares? Jump when you feel ready.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2018, 11:45:37 AM »
Thanks for the notes...it will save me time in not listening to it.

Those examples are crap IMO. And if I get board I will find something to do. A job does not define me...ggrrr this type of thing just is annoying...The world is falling apart, we have no control over our money, and if college costs end up being as high as she says then the entire world would have to adjust. Because if it is costs $400K for college then the wages once out of college will have to adjust. That is the most stupid thing I have ever seen. Yes college is expensive...dont study underwater basket weaving and you will be fine.

Is it expensive though? Some schools of course are. But I feel like people seem to also include room and board when talking about how expensive college is, which isn't really a fair comparison, because if you decide not to go to school, you still need a place to live and food to eat to survive. The flagship university for my state's in-state tuition and fees is $9,130/yr. That's not cheap or free, but I wouldn't say it's expensive.

My alma mater is even cheaper. For in-state tuition and fees it's $6,368/yr. That's a 4 year degree for just over $25k.

maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2018, 11:47:15 AM »
I posted in the duplicate thread originally, so repeating here where people are actually discussing the interview

AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment.

This particular bullet point would seem to make pursuing FIRE (or at least FI) as seriously and as rapidly as feasible for your individual circumstances MORE important rather than less.

Aelias

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2018, 11:50:06 AM »
AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment. Tax brackets will increase to compensate for all the people not working and not paying taxes. Higher tax brackets mean you will keep a smaller % of your portfolio (e.g. 401k)

This seems like a strikingly important reason to PURSUE FI as fast and as strongly as feasible for your individual circumstances.

Right? I made it until about the 11 min mark, and then I gave up. What was her point about tax brackets going up?  I mean, if in FIRE I'm going to be living off investments rather than income, those tax brackets won't apply to me in the same way. And most people pursuing FIRE are investing heavily in their 20s and 30s, so how exactly are they missing out on the benefits of compounding?

This sounds like someone who hasn't taken a lot of time to think about how people pursuing FIRE actually think about or plan for life expenses and is deeply threatened by the concept that people may not want to work until traditional retirement age to continue accumulating money. 

Alternatively, Suze Orman may have already been replaced by automation and the concept of FIRE does not compute.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2018, 11:51:37 AM »
I posted in the duplicate thread originally, so repeating here where people are actually discussing the interview

AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment.

This particular bullet point would seem to make pursuing FIRE (or at least FI) as seriously and as rapidly as feasible for your individual circumstances MORE important rather than less.

I completely agree. I've always thought like that. If AI takes over most jobs in the next 15-20 years, I want to be the owner of the companies that benefit from this, not an employee praying my job isn't next on the chopping block. How do you become an owner? Buy shares in these companies. What does that also move you towards? FIRE.

fattest_foot

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2018, 11:52:32 AM »
If $2-3M isn't enough, doesn't that bode incredibly poorly for something like 90% of the population? If you can't retire on that, retirement as a concept is dead.

oldmannickels

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2018, 12:04:24 PM »

katsiki

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2018, 12:08:04 PM »
Suze died.  This is actually a robot prepared to look and sound like her.  See, AI is here.  :)

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2018, 12:11:23 PM »
Skimming over this, I can just imagine the following conversations playing out

me, age 35:  Ok Suze - I've saved my butt off, charted my expenses and I have a 4% WR and the ability to cut back and earn a little if the SHTF.  I've got $1MM in assets and at most I need $40k/year to survive. Think it's ok for me to retire now?
Suze: Are you kidding?  You can't retire on that!  You might have 6 decades of life left and the biggest expenses are ahead.  4% is way too much to survive 50+ years, no matter what studies done years ago say.

me (age 40):  Alright Suze - I've saved even more and the market has been good to me.  I now have $1.3MM for a 3% WR. My plans include a high deductible health insurance plan.  I can retire now, right?
Suze: Not even close!   Inflation over 40 years could cut that amount by 70%!  What are you going to do if a black swan lands on your portfolio, eat nothing but beans and rice?  And your kids will be in college in another 8 years - you'll be completely bored without them, you'll have no purpose.  You'll spend all day staring at your kitchen cabinets with nothing to do!

me (age 45):  Yes!  I got a promotion, sold my first home for a tidy profit and I've set up a 5 year bond latter.  I've got nearly $2MM in investments for a 2% WR.  Surely I can retire now??
Suze:  A 5 year bond latter?  Didn't you hear what happened to people who were holding Puerto Rico bonds?  Poof!  Up in smoke!  And $2MM can be wiped out with one major illness, one week spent in the ICU. You don't want to be kicked out of the hospital when you are at your sickest, unable to work and without a penny to your name, do you?

me (age 55):  I'm starting to approach 'normal' retirement age.  My kids are long gone and I've got lots of hobbies I'd rather be doing than going to work daily.  I stopped paying attention to my assets when they passed $3MM, and that was a few years ago.  I'm going to give my 2-weeks notice next month.
Suze: Hold on a minute buster!  People are living longer than ever, you can't call it quits now - 55 is the new 40!  You're still over a decade away from getting SS and there's no guarantee the government won't take that away from you.  What's more, if the next election goes poorly the new party might increase your taxes.  Have you thought about taxes?? 

me (age 65): Why do I still listen to your show?!  I just looked at my balance and I've got $8MM in the stock market and almost $400k in a bond latter I set up years ago. At this rate I could get a 0% return, live to be 100 and still have over $6MM in my vanguard account.  My small efficient home within walking distance to downtown has also more than doubled in value, and at 65 it's still way bigger than I need. My two kids are traveling the world, having followed the advice in a blog called 'mr-money-mustache' when they were in college. Yale's booster club has me on speed-dial, and I never even went there.
Suze: ...just 5 more years and you can retire, and never have to work again!

Captain Cactus

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2018, 12:12:18 PM »
We in the FIRE movement have it all wrong.  We have been getting our information from these crazy bloggers who give away their knowledge for free.  You get what you pay for, right?  I suggest we all run out and buy Suze Ormanís new book and tell our friends to buy it too.  That way we are paying for information and you get what you pay for, right?  Oh, and sheís gonna be on Opera tonight so obviously her way is the only prudent way to do things.  Sigh....

jim555

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2018, 12:14:05 PM »
If you don't have a decamillion you are not gonna make it.

coppertop

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2018, 12:14:48 PM »
Suze Orman has gotten a lot of press recently and seems to be a current darling for Money Magazine and AARP Magazine.  I think she is full of it. I am 63 y/o and the last thing I want to be doing is trading precious hours of my life working for people who neither respect nor care about me, so I retired last Christmas.  We are living on under $30,000 a year including SS and are not deprived one bit.  We have a simple lifestyle and are content.  I suppose if, like Suze, you need a boat and other trappings of wealth, you have a different story. 

Aelias

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2018, 12:34:15 PM »
So, I'm definitely just hate-listening at this point, but at around 24 min, she actually makes the case for frugality.  She tells a story about her working for PG&E doing retirement planning, and she says that the people in lower wage jobs making $50-$60K were actually in better shape to retire than the executives who had millions of dollars in their retirement accounts and a pension doling out $13K a month.  Why?  Because those lower earning people had lower expenses and didn't have the overhead of expensive houses and everything else.

And . . . isn't that the whole damn point?  You earn whatever you earn, but you avoid lifestyle inflation and continue to live as if you earned far less.

And she thinks $2 million is "pennies"?  Not if you live like you're earning $60K a year.

dude

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2018, 12:40:39 PM »
If $2-3M isn't enough, doesn't that bode incredibly poorly for something like 90% of the population? If you can't retire on that, retirement as a concept is dead.

More like 99.8%.

SunnyDays

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2018, 12:42:39 PM »
Hmm, didn't she retire at 62?

ketchup

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2018, 12:43:21 PM »
So, I'm definitely just hate-listening at this point, but at around 24 min, she actually makes the case for frugality.  She tells a story about her working for PG&E doing retirement planning, and she says that the people in lower wage jobs making $50-$60K were actually in better shape to retire than the executives who had millions of dollars in their retirement accounts and a pension doling out $13K a month.  Why?  Because those lower earning people had lower expenses and didn't have the overhead of expensive houses and everything else.

And . . . isn't that the whole damn point?  You earn whatever you earn, but you avoid lifestyle inflation and continue to live as if you earned far less.

And she thinks $2 million is "pennies"?  Not if you live like you're earning $60K a year.
Also, she considers $50-60k/yr "lower wage jobs"?  How about some perspective? That's literally median US household income.

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2018, 12:55:23 PM »
Ugh.

she keeps escalating into crazy-land.
"let's say you need $200k, $250k to live comfortably, then you have a sudden expense and now you need $350k.  Now you need $10MM just to make that in interest."

"80k per year is just not enough.  I personally think this is the biggest mistake you will ever make in your lifetime.  I think it is just ridiculous.  $80k may sound like a lot of money, but it's not.  When you are 60 or 70 or 80 you will not want to live on $80k a year."

ixtap

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2018, 01:03:00 PM »
Ugh.

she keeps escalating into crazy-land.
"let's say you need $200k, $250k to live comfortably, then you have a sudden expense and now you need $350k.  Now you need $10MM just to make that in interest."

"80k per year is just not enough.  I personally think this is the biggest mistake you will ever make in your lifetime.  I think it is just ridiculous.  $80k may sound like a lot of money, but it's not.  When you are 60 or 70 or 80 you will not want to live on $80k a year."

How could anyone possibly live on 120% of the median household income?!

What she must think of all those middle class people earning a mere $120k, and still having to pay taxes and save money from  such a paltry sum!!

DS

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2018, 01:03:55 PM »
If everyone FIREs who is she going to preach to?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2018, 01:25:06 PM »
I love a good point-by-point takedown:
Life happens - cancer, illness, death, accidents - $2 million when that happens is pennies Um, that's what insurance is for, right?

AI is coming - by 2030 we will have 25% unemployment. Tax brackets will increase to compensate for all the people not working and not paying taxes. Higher tax brackets mean you will keep a smaller % of your portfolio (e.g. 401k)Better to save up more now, then!

Healthy people today can live until 90, 95 or 100. long term care in the future will be $30k a month. Suze paid $250k a year for her mom. Hang on, are they healthy, or are they in long-term care?  Does she mean healthy body but declining mental acuity?  Ok, that one's real, but there are workarounds (have kids?).

Expenses increase over time, especially if you have kids.So you account for it.  Also, expenses decline as the kids move out.

Don't forget about inflation whacking away at your portfolio.That's already priced into the 4% SWR.

Markets can go down, dividends can drop to zero - a 4% withdrawal rate may be too high. Puerto Rico was paying 6% on its bonds before it defaulted.The folks running PR don't exactly have a great track record.  There's a reason they had to pay 6%.  Markets can go down, correct. So can spending.  And asset allocation can take out much of that sting.

FIRE before 50 is the biggest mistake you can make in a lifetime.Working until you croak doesn't sound like a picnic either.

Need to invest as much as possible when you're young to get the biggest benefits of compounding.Whoa, she got something right!

A 3% withdrawal on a $3mil portfolio is fine without black swan events but she tells everyone to work as long as they can in an AREA THAT YOU LOVE.  If you love it, is it really work?

Don't neglect disability insurance.Fair enough.

After 4-5 years of leisure and travel many people get bored.Joke's on you--travel isn't a huge part of my ER plans.  I have way too many other things I want to do that don't involve getting on a commercial airplane!

It's fine to pursue FIRE in order to be a SAHP. But your child will go to school and get older and you need to fill those holes. Holes? Do you mean pay for your kids' college? Nope.  My kids are on their own there.

College costs will be $400k pretty soon - do you want to help your kids or not? Many parents choose to spend on their kids rather than retire. The students may not be able to borrow enough to pay for tuition and then the parents have to co-sign. Please define "soon."  Also, please tell me where it costs $100k per year to go to school, and what you're spending all that money on, so I can steer my kids away from there.

golden1

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2018, 01:28:20 PM »
Most people I know in tech donít make it to 70 to retire, unless they have an extremely specialized knowledge base or skill and are irreplaceable.  Many, particularly high salaried folks, are pushed out, or if the company is kind, offered early retirement in their late 50s or early 60s.  I am not looking to be FI in order to retire very yearly.  I started too late for that.  I am looking to FI in order to hedge against the likelihood that some younger millennial will be hired at 2/3 of my salary at a certain point. 

ixtap

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2018, 01:37:37 PM »

After 4-5 years of leisure and travel many people get bored.Joke's on you--travel isn't a huge part of my ER plans.  I have way too many other things I want to do that don't involve getting on a commercial airplane!


Statistically, this may be true, but then you have options: go back to work, volunteer, start a new hobby, adopt...

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 01:42:34 PM »
Quote
There's something about smoking pot online that I just don't find cool

Cookie78

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 01:43:54 PM »

After 4-5 years of leisure and travel many people get bored.Joke's on you--travel isn't a huge part of my ER plans.  I have way too many other things I want to do that don't involve getting on a commercial airplane!


Statistically, this may be true, but then you have options: go back to work, volunteer, start a new hobby, adopt...

Ya, no kidding.

Nope, better work FOREVER just in case I might get STATISTICALLY bored after 5 years of leisure and/or travel!!

PDXTabs

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2018, 02:01:41 PM »
Most people I know in tech donít make it to 70 to retire, unless they have an extremely specialized knowledge base or skill and are irreplaceable.  Many, particularly high salaried folks, are pushed out, or if the company is kind, offered early retirement in their late 50s or early 60s.

Yea, unless you get/have your MS, in which case you can always teach. But you might not like it and the pay will be low, because no one will want to hire you full time (only adjunct) as they don't want to pay for all the ills of your advancing age!

I am not looking to be FI in order to retire very yearly.  I started too late for that.  I am looking to FI in order to hedge against the likelihood that some younger millennial will be hired at 2/3 of my salary at a certain point.

Me too, I have a plan to be FI (if not RE) by the time I'm 46. I just hope I make it that long. If I do, I may well keep working for another 1~9 years.

SachaFiscal

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2018, 02:02:16 PM »
@golden1 good point about tech career lifespan.  That was one of the reasons I pursued this FIRE path as well.  I felt like I couldn't keep up and would eventually have to go into management (yuck) or be passed up by younger, cheaper engineers.  I felt it happening already at age 40.  I probably could have continued until 50 but wasn't sure if I would live that long.  The thing is, we may not live as long as we think. My dad died at 60 and my mother in her 70s is sick now with something terminal.  They both led healthy lives but got rare diseases. There's no cheating death. It will come for us all at some point. If I need $250k a year to stay alive, and I don't have it, I'll just die like everyone will eventually.

Once you have enough to support your lifestyle withdrawing 3-4%, I think it's okay to pull the plug on your career.  Especially if you hate your job. 

There's so much to do other than expensive leisure travel.  In the past year, I've met a lot of retired people who are really enjoying their lives. They go to free concerts, community gatherings, free seminars and classes. Money isn't the most important thing.  More important is time, love and friendship, learning new skills, and experiencing new things (and much more you could all could add, I'm sure). Happiness can come from appreciating what you have and being grateful for it.  Humans are incredibly adaptable and can find happiness and wonder in the simplest of situations. I find the most joy talking with friends and family, helping people who need it, eating simple homemade foods, walking in the sunshine, meditating, and learning new things.


nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2018, 02:22:19 PM »
I actually made it to the end.
The last 10 minutes or so were particularly painful.  Suze was just on a soapbox spouting fear while telling the listeners how great she was.  Floods will come and take your rental properties away.  Mold! Crime! Mudslides! Fires!
She kept referencing 'close friends' who had lost everything in this disaster or that disaster (sounds like a really good reason NOT to put all your NW in one vulnerable, uninsured asset). Somehow I doubt she's had so many close friends die in a handful of well-publicized disasters. The ever increasing sums of money Suze tossed around started getting comical - 'you're going to need $100k to fix the roof, you're going to get hit with a pole through the windshield and it won't be covered by insurance, you'd better believe you'll need $30k a month for end-of-life care, not just for a year but for 5, 8, 10 years". 

Beating a dead horse she kept the fear-shtick up -- the tens of thousands of letters she got from people who had a couple million in the bank but were suddenly penniless and unemploy(able). The friends who retired in their 50s who apparently came to her a few decades asking "why did you ever let me retire" (to which she responded - I tried to convince you not to!).  Of all the regrets most people have towards the end of hteir life, few seem to say "I wish I'd worked another decade".

There was an odd rant about student loans towrads the end too... somehow $50k/year  for four years ($200k) in college expenses means you've got to have a few million$ more saved up or risk your children being saddled with debt forever. Hey, here's a thought - why not just 1) have your children choose a slightly less ridiculous school and 2) pay out of pocket with money you've budgeted ahead of time because this is among the most predictable of large future expenses?

Perhaps it was for shock-value, but the figures she kept tossing out as the 'minimum' you'd need for a leisurely lifestyle were often in the mid-6 figures. No person over 60 is legitimately happy on 'only' $80k/year, even with a paid off house (more than 4x our budget after the mortgage). 


I actually liked how Paula Pant wrapped things up, giving a defense of FIRE concepts and saying how she thought Suze just didn't quite understand what it was all about.

NV Teacher

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2018, 03:24:39 PM »

Healthy people today can live until 90, 95 or 100. long term care in the future will be $30k a month. Suze paid $250k a year for her mom.



We are a few months into long term care for my mother at an assisted living place.  Her monthly costs are running right around $4000 a month.  We looked into having someone come to the house and with 24/7 care the cost would have been about $7500 a month.  Well below $250,000 a year.  Thankfully my mother lived below her means, saved/invested her money, and has enough for several years of expenses.

hadabeardonce

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2018, 03:37:59 PM »
People born in the 1950's tend to have a high sense of paranoia after living through the Cuban Missile Crisis and Cold War. Lots of anxiety, pressure to be prepared, duck and cover to avoid nuclear disaster... I can see where Suze wants to have a large portfolio and insurance coverage to tackle personal doomsday scenarios. Plus as a point person for financial advice she's probably heard a ton of financial horror stories.

Her prophecy of an AI takeover leading to 25% unemployment by 2030 and all the other consequences is fun. Higher tax brackets due to people not paying into the system, Social Security and Medicare collapsing on 76 million baby boomers, floods washing away every real estate property on earth... *yawn* who's playing John Connor in the movie adaptation of this?

"Suze Slapdown on the FIRE movement" lol

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2018, 03:53:48 PM »

Healthy people today can live until 90, 95 or 100. long term care in the future will be $30k a month. Suze paid $250k a year for her mom.



We are a few months into long term care for my mother at an assisted living place.  Her monthly costs are running right around $4000 a month.  We looked into having someone come to the house and with 24/7 care the cost would have been about $7500 a month.  Well below $250,000 a year.  Thankfully my mother lived below her means, saved/invested her money, and has enough for several years of expenses.

All of her numbers show a blatant disconnect with middle-class or even upper-middle class expenses.  I can't tell if its an intensional shtick (omg, $250k/year?? I'll live like a movie star!) or if she really is that out of touch with 99%+ of adults in the US.

her materialistic humble-bragging was pretty obnoxious. "I own an island!  I fly in private jets wherever I want to go! It is at this point inconcievable for me to run out of money however I spend it!"

MrsPete

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2018, 04:03:28 PM »
I read in the Boggleheads thread that she actually said:   "I would be skeptical about the folks in their 30s with a bare-bones portfolio; too much stuff can happen."  I kinda agree with that.  In your 30s, you're still VERY young to retire, and I don't agree with retiring super-early IF you don't have a super-solid portfolio.  If you're doing it with -- to use her term -- a bare-bones portfolio, you're living closer to the edge than would be comfortable for me.  If you're 30-something and care baaaarely retire, I'd say put in 5 more years to beef up the account and retire very well prepared in your late 30s /early 40s.  Statistically, you still have plenty of years ahead of you, and you'd have a good buffer against those big emergencies and inflation. 

Regardless, I cannot respect anyone who doesn't understand basic phonics; I mean, really, we teach those skills to kindergarteners.  Her stupid name is spelled wrong. 

If $2-3M isn't enough, doesn't that bode incredibly poorly for something like 90% of the population? If you can't retire on that, retirement as a concept is dead.
Hush!  You're not supposed to think about that ... you'll find the flaws in her message! 

So, I'm definitely just hate-listening at this point
I didn't know that term! 

Statistically, this may be true, but then you have options: go back to work, volunteer, start a new hobby, adopt...
Yeah, key phrase being "you have options".  Even if you opt to do something very like your job, you'd have the choice to do it part-time. 

Of all the regrets most people have towards the end of hteir life, few seem to say "I wish I'd worked another decade".
I never like that argument.  I strongly suspect plenty of people (probably not people on this board) reach the end of their lives and say, "I wish I were leaving my wife with a paid-off house" or "I wish I were leaving more for my young children's education" or similar thoughts.  I don't think most of us are passionate about our work and will think of it on our deathbeds ... but I think loads of us are passionate about taking care of the people we love.

All of her numbers show a blatant disconnect with middle-class or even upper-middle class expenses.  I can't tell if its an intensional shtick (omg, $250k/year?? I'll live like a movie star!) or if she really is that out of touch with 99%+ of adults in the US.
Yeah, and that disconnect is an ugly thing in a person who gives out financial advice. 

« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:06:47 PM by MrsPete »

nereo

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2018, 04:12:55 PM »
Of all the regrets most people have towards the end of hteir life, few seem to say "I wish I'd worked another decade".
I never like that argument.  I strongly suspect plenty of people (probably not people on this board) reach the end of their lives and say, "I wish I were leaving my wife with a paid-off house" or "I wish I were leaving more for my young children's education" or similar thoughts.  I don't think most of us are passionate about our work and will think of it on our deathbeds ... but I think loads of us are passionate about taking care of the people we love.
i'm sure some do, though I suspect the regrets are more about all the money they've wasted on things that didnt really give them joy vs. having wanted to spend more years in the work force.   Of course this forum is doubtlessly not a representative sample, but the number of times Ive heard people express regret at not having spent more time being with the ones they loved and doing the things they liked far outnumber the people who wish they had worked years longer.  but thats just my impression.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2018, 04:27:50 PM »
I couldn't bear to listen. Thanks for posting the notes. "80k per year is just not enough"? We have a hard time spending $40k. I'd have to force myself to get extravagant to go beyond $40k and, the older I get, the less appealing *any item* becomes.

Suze fails to acknowledge that life expectancy in the US is actually going down, not up, so...

I guess Suze can't imagine just choosing not to spend that kind of money on medical care, or medical tourism. If I got sick enough that this overpriced "health care" system wanted $250k, I'd be overseas (like several friends have decided to do), getting whatever innovative treatment I need in a spa hotel for a fraction of the price. My best friend, as I type, is in Europe because the amazing immunotherapy that is radically shrinking her 14-year-old tumors is not even legal in the US, though it is throughout Europe and Asia. So, Suze, not sure I'd want to be here for all of that anyway, given the low quality and high cost.

I am my grandmother's full POA and legal guardian, and I manage all her care (in assisted living) and finances. In San Francisco proper, at mega fancy deluxe assisted living, her monthly outlay is $7,600 month. How on earth does Suze spend $250k/year on this? Almost all of this, by the way, is deductible as a medical expense, which really changes the total outlay and impact. Per the IRS, even rent in assisted living (not just the nursing care) is a deductible medical expense as long as one or both of two conditions are met: 1) the person is admitted as the result of an emergency incident (fall, etc.) or 2) the person has a chronic condition.

Stuff it, Suze.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:32:48 PM by Evgenia »

effigy98

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2018, 04:33:24 PM »

but she tells everyone to work as long as they can in an AREA THAT YOU LOVE.


Not sure who is going to pay me 500k a year to play video games and kiteboard... Shuffling TPS reports is pretty much all I know how to get ahead and there is very little to love in that, doing mundane tasks to make others much more profit then I cost is not something I can replicate on my own without MUCH more risk.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2018, 05:09:43 PM »
She is telling everyone to work until 70.  Some people wonít live that long.  I have lost 3 friends between 59-67 all to cancer.  They all did everything right diet and exercise included. You just donít know when your time is up.

Indeed.  It's also possible you just won't be able to work that long. My dad turns 70 next year.  He retired at 65 and developed some fairly serious health problems about 18 months later.  They aren't going to kill him, but they have required a lot of doctor's visits and I do think they would also have made doing his old job extremely difficult, maybe impossible.  I'm sure he could still get some kind of job if he needed to, but his options might be limited.  I certainly don't think working full time would be good for his health.

Quite a few of his friends have developed more serious health problems, and yes, some have also died.  His younger sister recently got a lymphoma diagnosis.

Saying "work until you're 70" is, for a not insignificant number of people, the same as saying "work until you die".  While all my grandparents did make it past 70 years of age, two of them were dead by 75, and then the others were 78 and 82.  All but one had serious health problems by age 70 that severely impacted their quality of life (cancer, cancer, alzheimer's).  So yeah, I don't think I can super realistically count on working until age 70.

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maizeman

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2018, 06:12:45 PM »
Of all the regrets most people have towards the end of hteir life, few seem to say "I wish I'd worked another decade".
I never like that argument.  I strongly suspect plenty of people (probably not people on this board) reach the end of their lives and say, "I wish I were leaving my wife with a paid-off house" or "I wish I were leaving more for my young children's education" or similar thoughts.  I don't think most of us are passionate about our work and will think of it on our deathbeds ... but I think loads of us are passionate about taking care of the people we love.
i'm sure some do, though I suspect the regrets are more about all the money they've wasted on things that didnt really give them joy vs. having wanted to spend more years in the work force.   Of course this forum is doubtlessly not a representative sample, but the number of times Ive heard people express regret at not having spent more time being with the ones they loved and doing the things they liked far outnumber the people who wish they had worked years longer.  but thats just my impression.

This is what I've read about when people do surveys of regrets from the terminally ill. Most of the regrets revolve around either not spending enough time with family or not pursuing passions (at all or earlier or more vigorously). Those regrets seem easier to address is you manage to FIRE -- or at least hit FI -- in your 30s than if you don't.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2018, 07:43:04 PM »
I did get bored so now teaching a online college class that I can do from anywhere. Itís fun!  I tried volunteering but it came with some of the same issues as working.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2018, 07:50:06 PM »
I take a little different viewpoint.  She must have made a lot of money over the years telling people they were stupid with their money.  Does she have enough to retire?  If all that money hasn't made her happy,........well someone living on "only" $80,000 / year cannot be happy.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2018, 08:26:48 PM »
I take a little different viewpoint.  She must have made a lot of money over the years telling people they were stupid with their money.  Does she have enough to retire?  If all that money hasn't made her happy,........well someone living on "only" $80,000 / year cannot be happy.

And I thought I was happy now spending less than $20K/yr.  I figured my FIRE budget of about $50K/yr would be enough to make me happy after I retire.  But if I take Suzie's advice, I have to wait until I'm 70, have far more than $2M to give me well in excess of $80k/yr so that that I will be happy.  It's a good thing I'm not taking her advice.  Mehhh....

brooklynmoney

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2018, 09:04:44 PM »
This makes me sad. I used to watch her show. She was amazing when she would do her ďcan I afford itĒ call in segments. The answer was almost always no. One time a kid called in. She denied him and told him to open an IRA haha.

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Re: Suze Orman hates FIRE
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2018, 09:08:45 PM »
I am my grandmother's full POA and legal guardian, and I manage all her care (in assisted living) and finances. In San Francisco proper, at mega fancy deluxe assisted living, her monthly outlay is $7,600 month. How on earth does Suze spend $250k/year on this?
She was probably flying the caregivers to her private island on her private jet.

(she bragged about living on a private island and flying on a private jet during the interview)