Author Topic: Support thread / safe space for those of us who feel vilified as investors  (Read 12313 times)

Bloop Bloop

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I just think that carving off the 1% seems a bit arbitrary.

I agree! The 1% was a slogan, though. Most of the detailed critiques were more accurately being directed at the top 1/1000 or so of 1% - big bankers getting bailed out, etc.

It's one thing to look at the top 0.1% - the ones on $1m a year. It's another thing to say that people with low 6 figure incomes who are already paying 2/5 of their income in tax are somehow to do the bulk of the heavy lifting by paying even more tax.

HBFIRE

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While I see your point, effective tax rates were absolutely higher, but not much higher as you point out.

Okay, there are other sources which claim otherwise, but that is neither here nor there.  The point is, we shouldn't point to a 90% marginal tax rate during that period as indicative of anything.  It's completely misleading as no one paid anywhere remotely close to that.  Leftists like to use it as a talking point, and it's intellectually dishonest.

BicycleB

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In my state landlords are slugged with an additional land tax [which is levied on all investment property, not land per se] which is about 5% per year of the value of the property, on each property.

This, I agree, is punitive. 5%???? Surely that can't be right?

I thought the ACT land tax regime at a little over 1% with no threshold was punitive - the government there is learning fast what happens when you squeeze investors just a little too much.

Sorry, I got it wrong. It's not 5%, it varies in a sliding scale and averages about 0.5%.

https://www.sro.vic.gov.au/node/1486#LTX

If you own $600k worth of property you pay $975 (0.16%)

If you own $1m worth of property you pay $2,975 (0.3%)

If you own $2m worth of property you pay $11,975 (0.55%)

If you own $3m it is $24,975 (0.82%) - note that above this threshold you pay 2.2% (!!) per dollar exceeding $3m

For those overseas, these amounts may seem crazy, but keep in mind the median house prices in our two largest cities are approx $700,000 and $900,000 each.

Hmm. $900,000 would bring tax of less than 3,000 Australian $.

My house in Texas has tax and market value around US$350,000. Tax was about $4,900 last year and will be around $5,400 next year - I guess just over AUD$7,500. I get a discount from long term ownership; full tax if bought new would be about US$6,900 or roughly AUD$10,700. Almost 2%.

https://tax-office.traviscountytx.gov/property-tax-estimator

Real estate taxes in our city are at a flat rate, though with some small exemptions at the low end. We have multiple jurisdictions that each charge their own tax. All the rates are flat, with most having an exemption at the low end. I've seen a published average of this "mostly flat" system as being 1.37%, though individual cases average almost 2% before the exemptions.

News here quoted an Australian analyst as saying overall Australian taxes are higher, but only a little...but that Australians use the tax money more effectively. Also, Americans spend a higher average of private $ on health care. That's in addition to the tax levies that go toward health care. I've previously tried to calculate the % of income in US and Europe that goes toward "all taxes plus all health care." It seemed to be around 45% in both cases. Is Australia's cost for that combination higher than 45%?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/australians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-they-get-more-too.html

« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 06:28:05 PM by BicycleB »

marty998

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In my state landlords are slugged with an additional land tax [which is levied on all investment property, not land per se] which is about 5% per year of the value of the property, on each property.

This, I agree, is punitive. 5%???? Surely that can't be right?

I thought the ACT land tax regime at a little over 1% with no threshold was punitive - the government there is learning fast what happens when you squeeze investors just a little too much.

Sorry, I got it wrong. It's not 5%, it varies in a sliding scale and averages about 0.5%.

https://www.sro.vic.gov.au/node/1486#LTX

If you own $600k worth of property you pay $975 (0.16%)

If you own $1m worth of property you pay $2,975 (0.3%)

If you own $2m worth of property you pay $11,975 (0.55%)

If you own $3m it is $24,975 (0.82%) - note that above this threshold you pay 2.2% (!!) per dollar exceeding $3m

For those overseas, these amounts may seem crazy, but keep in mind the median house prices in our two largest cities are approx $700,000 and $900,000 each.

Hmm. $900,000 would bring tax of less than 3,000 Australian $.

My house in Texas has tax and market value around US$350,000. Tax was about $4,900 last year and will be around $5,400 next year - I guess just over AUD$7,500. I get a discount from long term ownership; full tax if bought new would be about US$6,900 or roughly AUD$10,700. Almost 2%.

https://tax-office.traviscountytx.gov/property-tax-estimator

Real estate taxes in our city are at a flat rate, though with some small exemptions at the low end. We have multiple jurisdictions that each charge their own tax. All the rates are flat, with most having an exemption at the low end. I've seen a published average of this "mostly flat" system as being 1.37%, though individual cases average almost 2% before the exemptions.

News here quoted an Australian analyst as saying overall Australian taxes are higher, but only a little...but that Australians use the tax money more effectively. Also, Americans spend a higher average of private $ on health care. That's in addition to the tax levies that go toward health care. I've previously tried to calculate the % of income in US and Europe that goes toward "all taxes plus all health care." It seemed to be around 45% in both cases. Is Australia's cost for that combination higher than 45%?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/australians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-they-get-more-too.html

Land tax in Australia serves a different purpose to Property Tax over there in the US for you. Not exactly comparable guys.

Davnasty

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

BTDretire

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The US has always had a laissez faire attitude but even there I detect some populism rising up (I understand that Trump has actually been good for the rich, not bad, but that is another tangent).
The numbers show Trump has been good for those with a job and those that wanted a job, not just the rich.
Whether he is good for investors is something we will need to wait and find out. I just hope Trump's stock market does as well over 8 years as Obama's did. Under Obama my stache increased $1M from 1/2011 to 1/2018.
 I hope the next 7 years are just as good.
  As to special treatment for investors, I'm all for it, it's what gives the little guy a chance to make it big.
 Wife and I averaged $70k (inflation adjusted) for 37 years and "we made it big". We can live well on our investments.
 Shouldn't we want to give everyone that chance?
                      YES!

SwordGuy

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The removal of negative gearing affects wage income - i.e. it prevents one from using rental losses to offset wage income. The effect is that wage income is taxed at a higher rate than it would otherwise be.

I have no issues with capital gains tax adjustments.

Of course our taxes are 'punitive' - when the top 20% of earners pay 2/3 of all income tax, that is punitive. When people criticise your ability to earn a living off passive income, that is punitive.

Thank you for so eloquently proving the point you didn't intend to prove.

In the US, the top 20% own 72% of the wealth but pay 66.6% of taxes.  In other words, they are paying less than their share. :)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/04/19/the-growing-disparity-in-wealth-made-the-great-recession-worse-and-the-recovery-weaker-than-ever-before/#12379904efce


Bloop Bloop

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The removal of negative gearing affects wage income - i.e. it prevents one from using rental losses to offset wage income. The effect is that wage income is taxed at a higher rate than it would otherwise be.

I have no issues with capital gains tax adjustments.

Of course our taxes are 'punitive' - when the top 20% of earners pay 2/3 of all income tax, that is punitive. When people criticise your ability to earn a living off passive income, that is punitive.

Thank you for so eloquently proving the point you didn't intend to prove.

In the US, the top 20% own 72% of the wealth but pay 66.6% of taxes.  In other words, they are paying less than their share. :)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/04/19/the-growing-disparity-in-wealth-made-the-great-recession-worse-and-the-recovery-weaker-than-ever-before/#12379904efce

Interesting stats, thank you. I did a bit of my own research -

In Australia the top 20% own 62% of wealth but pay 79% of all taxes. (I believe it's about 68% of income tax, but there are other, even more progressive taxes, e.g. land tax, stamp duty, luxury car tax, that push the overall figure up.) So I guess whereas the ratio in the U.S. is about 1.08, the ratio in Australia is 0.78, meaning that the U.S. is 38% kinder to investors than Australia. This may explain the disparity between the American lived experience and the Australian lived experience.

https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/blog/australias-household-income-wealth-distribution/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-22/tax-paid-by-the-wealthy-depends-on-how-you-do-the-numbers/9784536

HBFIRE

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In other words, they are paying less than their share. :)



Not according to this:


https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-20-of-americans-will-pay-87-of-income-tax-1523007001

"The results show how steeply progressive the U.S. income tax remains. For 2018, households in the top 20% will have income of about $150,000 or more and 52% of total income, about the same as in 2017. But they will pay about 87% of income taxes, up from about 84% last year."

EnjoyIt

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Bloop Bloop

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

I also wonder whether those who say as an investor I should just suck up the tax burden would be happy if their yearly tax burden (for income tax alone) was 1.5x all their other expenses (of any kind) combined. That would put a spanner in the works of most FIRE plans, including my own.

MilesTeg

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Fresh Bread

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

EnjoyIt

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

Reality check, donations to non government funded organizations are not donations to the government. You are picking exactly what you want while an increase in taxes pays for everything.

But, if you think charitable giving count, then by your statistic on average everyone is paying 3% extra already which you claim is not enough and want to increase taxes further.

Again, pay an extra 1% in taxes and let’s see a receipt. Until then, I claim you all are hypocrites.

 

Stoic on FIRE

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

Reality check, donations to non government funded organizations are not donations to the government. You are picking exactly what you want while an increase in taxes pays for everything.

But, if you think charitable giving count, then by your statistic on average everyone is paying 3% extra already which you claim is not enough and want to increase taxes further.

Again, pay an extra 1% in taxes and let’s see a receipt. Until then, I claim you all are hypocrites.
 

I respectfully disagree. Since you consume public goods and services at what tax rate would you voluntarily start writing a check to the Treasury because you don't believe you're paying enough for the benefits you receive? If the answer you intimate above by not willing to delay FI is never, then the answer is not an individual giving a gift to their government, but for the collective action of the voters to decide on representatives who revise the tax statutes to fall in line with what is perceived as fair and right to the population receiving their government's public goods.

Most individual contributions, if someone were to provide a gift to their government, will not even register as a rounding error in the government's balance sheet. Even if Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Elon Musk somehow liquidated all of their assets (~$341 billion) in the same year to give as a gift to their government they would not even make up 1/10 of the expenditures (~$4.1 trillion) or make up half the deficit (~$779 billion). Now we're talking about individuals and those individuals are some of if not the richest in America and their individual contributions would not even account for 1/10 of 1 year's worth of federal spending. That's not accounting for state or local spending yet. Would you argue those individual contributions made a difference? If your answer is no, then your response of, "Just pay more taxes!", to someone with orders of magnitude less wealth is a non-starter.

Please come up with a better solution because your argument for a "safe space" just makes it seem like you want an echo-chamber as you shout down mathlete's statement instead of trying to suss out the merits or drawbacks of his opinion.

EnjoyIt

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

Reality check, donations to non government funded organizations are not donations to the government. You are picking exactly what you want while an increase in taxes pays for everything.

But, if you think charitable giving count, then by your statistic on average everyone is paying 3% extra already which you claim is not enough and want to increase taxes further.

Again, pay an extra 1% in taxes and let’s see a receipt. Until then, I claim you all are hypocrites.
 

I respectfully disagree. Since you consume public goods and services at what tax rate would you voluntarily start writing a check to the Treasury because you don't believe you're paying enough for the benefits you receive? If the answer you intimate above by not willing to delay FI is never, then the answer is not an individual giving a gift to their government, but for the collective action of the voters to decide on representatives who revise the tax statutes to fall in line with what is perceived as fair and right to the population receiving their government's public goods.

Most individual contributions, if someone were to provide a gift to their government, will not even register as a rounding error in the government's balance sheet. Even if Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Elon Musk somehow liquidated all of their assets (~$341 billion) in the same year to give as a gift to their government they would not even make up 1/10 of the expenditures (~$4.1 trillion) or make up half the deficit (~$779 billion). Now we're talking about individuals and those individuals are some of if not the richest in America and their individual contributions would not even account for 1/10 of 1 year's worth of federal spending. That's not accounting for state or local spending yet. Would you argue those individual contributions made a difference? If your answer is no, then your response of, "Just pay more taxes!", to someone with orders of magnitude less wealth is a non-starter.

Please come up with a better solution because your argument for a "safe space" just makes it seem like you want an echo-chamber as you shout down mathlete's statement instead of trying to suss out the merits or drawbacks of his opinion.

I'm not sure if you are addressing me, and I'm not sure what Mathlete's statement you want me to address.  All I can say is that if everyone who thinks we need to raise taxes and willing to do it to themselves should go ahead and donate an additional 1% to the government then we would indeed see real money entering the government coffers.  Talk is cheap act on your talk.  Start a go fund me page with proceeds going to the US.  I know, You don't really want to pay more, maybe willing to pay a little more as long as others pay a lot more.  Hypocrites!

I will pay whatever the government regulations say I must pay and not a dime more.  I will not leave a tip, and I will vote in a way that helps me cut taxes.  I am honest about my intentions.  Are you?

As for "safe spaces," I have already expressed my view that they are bullshit pansy constructs that don't exist in the real world.  Invest and save as much as you desire and those who disagree with you can fuck off.

SimpleCycle

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.



Wrenchturner

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.
I don't see too much complaining.  I do see discussion regarding the appropriate path for taxing investments.

Retireatee1

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There has been talk lately of long term capital gains and dividends being taxed as ordinary income to reduce the deficit.  I'm not sure that would count as "vilifying" though.

Stoic on FIRE

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

Reality check, donations to non government funded organizations are not donations to the government. You are picking exactly what you want while an increase in taxes pays for everything.

But, if you think charitable giving count, then by your statistic on average everyone is paying 3% extra already which you claim is not enough and want to increase taxes further.

Again, pay an extra 1% in taxes and let’s see a receipt. Until then, I claim you all are hypocrites.
 

I respectfully disagree. Since you consume public goods and services at what tax rate would you voluntarily start writing a check to the Treasury because you don't believe you're paying enough for the benefits you receive? If the answer you intimate above by not willing to delay FI is never, then the answer is not an individual giving a gift to their government, but for the collective action of the voters to decide on representatives who revise the tax statutes to fall in line with what is perceived as fair and right to the population receiving their government's public goods.

Most individual contributions, if someone were to provide a gift to their government, will not even register as a rounding error in the government's balance sheet. Even if Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Elon Musk somehow liquidated all of their assets (~$341 billion) in the same year to give as a gift to their government they would not even make up 1/10 of the expenditures (~$4.1 trillion) or make up half the deficit (~$779 billion). Now we're talking about individuals and those individuals are some of if not the richest in America and their individual contributions would not even account for 1/10 of 1 year's worth of federal spending. That's not accounting for state or local spending yet. Would you argue those individual contributions made a difference? If your answer is no, then your response of, "Just pay more taxes!", to someone with orders of magnitude less wealth is a non-starter.

Please come up with a better solution because your argument for a "safe space" just makes it seem like you want an echo-chamber as you shout down mathlete's statement instead of trying to suss out the merits or drawbacks of his opinion.

I'm not sure if you are addressing me, and I'm not sure what Mathlete's statement you want me to address.  All I can say is that if everyone who thinks we need to raise taxes and willing to do it to themselves should go ahead and donate an additional 1% to the government then we would indeed see real money entering the government coffers.  Talk is cheap act on your talk.  Start a go fund me page with proceeds going to the US.  I know, You don't really want to pay more, maybe willing to pay a little more as long as others pay a lot more.  Hypocrites!

I will pay whatever the government regulations say I must pay and not a dime more.  I will not leave a tip, and I will vote in a way that helps me cut taxes.  I am honest about my intentions.  Are you?

As for "safe spaces," I have already expressed my view that they are bullshit pansy constructs that don't exist in the real world.  Invest and save as much as you desire and those who disagree with you can fuck off.

As I said before, telling people to "Just pay more taxes!" is a non-starter and not a solution. That's all you seem to be able to repeat and follow it up with calling other investors hypocrites who have said words to the effect, "I have a lot of advantages and thinking critically through how my investment income (rightly or wrongly) is taxed probably should be altered," is just an ad hominem fallacy. Congratulations! Your whole argument (notice I am attacking the argument and not you ;) is as worthless as an individual contribution to the government coffers would be.

THIS IS NOT TO DERAIL THE THREAD POLITICALLY, BUT SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY JUST-PAY-MORE IS A RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT
By the way, if anyone wants a real world case study on how well the just-pay-more-taxes-if-you-want-to argument would play out look at the gofundme for the Trumpwall (their words not mine). In January about 65% of Republicans supported the Trumpwall. Since funding for the border wall was not approved before the House of Representatives switched from a Republican majority to a Democratic majority or after -- by the just-pay-more reasoning the 65% of Republicans who support the border wall would reach into their pockets to provide funding to the Treasury to pay for the wall. Put their money where there mouth is, right?

About 24% of the voting age population (~242 million in 2017) identified as Republican. So by the just-pay-more reasoning since the Trumpwall was not funded there should be 0.65*0.24*242,000,000 or over 37 million citizens (There are more because some Independents and Democrats also support the wall, but let's make the math even more in favor of the just-pay-more argument). The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) estimated that the $5.7 billion proposed would build 234 miles of Trumpwall or about $24 million per mile. Spread across those 37 million citizens the average contribution would have to be a little over $154. To date, the Trumpwall gofundme has about 350,000 individual contributions over three months with an average contribution of $57. Individual contributions has net about $20 million, less than the cost of one mile of border wall. So, less than 1% of the population supporting the border wall has reached into their pocket and those that have have not paid enough to meet the average needed to fully fund the $5.7 billion request.

Just-pay-more seems to have fallen flat even with a project that has a significant majority of a voting bloc's support. Seems to me that the vast majority recognize individual contributions to a government project does not make a difference.

I too am honest about my intentions and will continue voting for representatives whose views on how taxes should be apportioned across the population are closely aligned with my own.

Bloop Bloop

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.

Do you pay approximately 1.5x your yearly expenses in income tax alone? Does your total tax bill approach 3/5 or 2/3 of your gross income?

If not, would you be happy to do so, without any complaint, all the while facing political calls for even more tax to be levied upon you (because you're apparently, says the populace, still not paying your fair share?)

deborah

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Most of us pay (or paid) much more than 1.5 times our yearly expenses in income tax. It’s part of being Mustashian.

lexde

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.

Do you pay approximately 1.5x your yearly expenses in income tax alone? Does your total tax bill approach 3/5 or 2/3 of your gross income?

If not, would you be happy to do so, without any complaint, all the while facing political calls for even more tax to be levied upon you (because you're apparently, says the populace, still not paying your fair share?)
What part of that has to do with the original post/point of the thread?

Are you not turning your “safe space” into just somewhere to complain about taxes?

What does that have to do with people “vilifying” investors as was the original basis for posting?

Is this just a weird trolling thread?

Bloop Bloop

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.

Do you pay approximately 1.5x your yearly expenses in income tax alone? Does your total tax bill approach 3/5 or 2/3 of your gross income?

If not, would you be happy to do so, without any complaint, all the while facing political calls for even more tax to be levied upon you (because you're apparently, says the populace, still not paying your fair share?)
What part of that has to do with the original post/point of the thread?

Are you not turning your “safe space” into just somewhere to complain about taxes?

What does that have to do with people “vilifying” investors as was the original basis for posting?

Is this just a weird trolling thread?

I'm responding to someone who was labelling this thread a "whiny, complainypants" thread - and you're saying that I am the one trolling?!

I am trying to engage with posts on a good faith basis, and in a polite fashion. If you want to talk about investing and ideas for how to better enrich investors, I would be happy to engage with that.

EnjoyIt

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

Could someone make a sticky that we can link to every time someone says this? That'd be awesome.

So many willing to delay financial independence on the internet for the good of all. I have never seen anyone actually do so. I propose all those who are willing hoping together and pay an extra 1% in taxes in 2019. Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s see some cashed check receipts.

Reality check: many people delay financial goals through actions such as charitable contributions.

Yeah was just about to say this. People are already be paying out the extra tax they think they should be in charitable donations. The average in the US is 3% or something. In Aus it's much lower and I'd assume that's because we have a better safety net.

Reality check, donations to non government funded organizations are not donations to the government. You are picking exactly what you want while an increase in taxes pays for everything.

But, if you think charitable giving count, then by your statistic on average everyone is paying 3% extra already which you claim is not enough and want to increase taxes further.

Again, pay an extra 1% in taxes and let’s see a receipt. Until then, I claim you all are hypocrites.
 

I respectfully disagree. Since you consume public goods and services at what tax rate would you voluntarily start writing a check to the Treasury because you don't believe you're paying enough for the benefits you receive? If the answer you intimate above by not willing to delay FI is never, then the answer is not an individual giving a gift to their government, but for the collective action of the voters to decide on representatives who revise the tax statutes to fall in line with what is perceived as fair and right to the population receiving their government's public goods.

Most individual contributions, if someone were to provide a gift to their government, will not even register as a rounding error in the government's balance sheet. Even if Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Elon Musk somehow liquidated all of their assets (~$341 billion) in the same year to give as a gift to their government they would not even make up 1/10 of the expenditures (~$4.1 trillion) or make up half the deficit (~$779 billion). Now we're talking about individuals and those individuals are some of if not the richest in America and their individual contributions would not even account for 1/10 of 1 year's worth of federal spending. That's not accounting for state or local spending yet. Would you argue those individual contributions made a difference? If your answer is no, then your response of, "Just pay more taxes!", to someone with orders of magnitude less wealth is a non-starter.

Please come up with a better solution because your argument for a "safe space" just makes it seem like you want an echo-chamber as you shout down mathlete's statement instead of trying to suss out the merits or drawbacks of his opinion.

I'm not sure if you are addressing me, and I'm not sure what Mathlete's statement you want me to address.  All I can say is that if everyone who thinks we need to raise taxes and willing to do it to themselves should go ahead and donate an additional 1% to the government then we would indeed see real money entering the government coffers.  Talk is cheap act on your talk.  Start a go fund me page with proceeds going to the US.  I know, You don't really want to pay more, maybe willing to pay a little more as long as others pay a lot more.  Hypocrites!

I will pay whatever the government regulations say I must pay and not a dime more.  I will not leave a tip, and I will vote in a way that helps me cut taxes.  I am honest about my intentions.  Are you?

As for "safe spaces," I have already expressed my view that they are bullshit pansy constructs that don't exist in the real world.  Invest and save as much as you desire and those who disagree with you can fuck off.

As I said before, telling people to "Just pay more taxes!" is a non-starter and not a solution. That's all you seem to be able to repeat and follow it up with calling other investors hypocrites who have said words to the effect, "I have a lot of advantages and thinking critically through how my investment income (rightly or wrongly) is taxed probably should be altered," is just an ad hominem fallacy. Congratulations! Your whole argument (notice I am attacking the argument and not you ;) is as worthless as an individual contribution to the government coffers would be.

THIS IS NOT TO DERAIL THE THREAD POLITICALLY, BUT SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY JUST-PAY-MORE IS A RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT
By the way, if anyone wants a real world case study on how well the just-pay-more-taxes-if-you-want-to argument would play out look at the gofundme for the Trumpwall (their words not mine). In January about 65% of Republicans supported the Trumpwall. Since funding for the border wall was not approved before the House of Representatives switched from a Republican majority to a Democratic majority or after -- by the just-pay-more reasoning the 65% of Republicans who support the border wall would reach into their pockets to provide funding to the Treasury to pay for the wall. Put their money where there mouth is, right?

About 24% of the voting age population (~242 million in 2017) identified as Republican. So by the just-pay-more reasoning since the Trumpwall was not funded there should be 0.65*0.24*242,000,000 or over 37 million citizens (There are more because some Independents and Democrats also support the wall, but let's make the math even more in favor of the just-pay-more argument). The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) estimated that the $5.7 billion proposed would build 234 miles of Trumpwall or about $24 million per mile. Spread across those 37 million citizens the average contribution would have to be a little over $154. To date, the Trumpwall gofundme has about 350,000 individual contributions over three months with an average contribution of $57. Individual contributions has net about $20 million, less than the cost of one mile of border wall. So, less than 1% of the population supporting the border wall has reached into their pocket and those that have have not paid enough to meet the average needed to fully fund the $5.7 billion request.

Just-pay-more seems to have fallen flat even with a project that has a significant majority of a voting bloc's support. Seems to me that the vast majority recognize individual contributions to a government project does not make a difference.

I too am honest about my intentions and will continue voting for representatives whose views on how taxes should be apportioned across the population are closely aligned with my own.

We had capital gains taxes increased recently due to Obamacare. Capital gains tax increased by 3.8%
I have no interest in increases taxes further and have no desire in discussing any plan that tries to do so.

Those that feel the need to pay more taxes can do so whenever they so fit. Please keep me out of it.

Regarding the wall, I honestly don’t know all the intricate details but that premise failed due to logistics. The US government is always willing to take donations that end up in the treasury. I’m sure funding specific items does not fly so easily. Again, I recommend you and all your raise the tax compadres send a check to the government. The treasury will be thrilled to take it.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:29:42 PM by EnjoyIt »

davisgang90

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The removal of negative gearing affects wage income - i.e. it prevents one from using rental losses to offset wage income. The effect is that wage income is taxed at a higher rate than it would otherwise be.

I have no issues with capital gains tax adjustments.

Of course our taxes are 'punitive' - when the top 20% of earners pay 2/3 of all income tax, that is punitive. When people criticise your ability to earn a living off passive income, that is punitive.


Thank you for so eloquently proving the point you didn't intend to prove.

In the US, the top 20% own 72% of the wealth but pay 66.6% of taxes.  In other words, they are paying less than their share. :)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/04/19/the-growing-disparity-in-wealth-made-the-great-recession-worse-and-the-recovery-weaker-than-ever-before/#12379904efce
You seem to have confused wealth with income.  In the US at least we pay taxes on income and capital gains, not "wealth". 

marty998

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Most of us pay (or paid) much more than 1.5 times our yearly expenses in income tax. It’s part of being Mustashian.

Yup, I pay at least 1.5x my expenses in tax. But I also save/invest 5x my expenses.


matchewed

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We had capital gains taxes increased recently due to Obamacare. Capital gains tax increased by 3.8%
I have no interest in increases taxes further and have no desire in discussing any plan that tries to do so.

Those that feel the need to pay more taxes can do so whenever they so fit. Please keep me out of it.

Regarding the wall, I honestly don’t know all the intricate details but that premise failed due to logistics. The US government is always willing to take donations that end up in the treasury. I’m sure funding specific items does not fly so easily. Again, I recommend you and all your raise the tax compadres send a check to the government. The treasury will be thrilled to take it.

Snipped for space.

You may want to clarify that the 3.8% increase in Capital Gains Tax is only for the top three brackets and goes to Medicare, not ACT.

Davnasty

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snip...All I can say is that if everyone who thinks we need to raise taxes and willing to do it to themselves should go ahead and donate an additional 1% to the government then we would indeed see real money entering the government coffers.  Talk is cheap act on your talk.  Start a go fund me page with proceeds going to the US.  I know, You don't really want to pay more, maybe willing to pay a little more as long as others pay a lot more.  Hypocrites!

I will pay whatever the government regulations say I must pay and not a dime more.  I will not leave a tip, and I will vote in a way that helps me cut taxes.  I am honest about my intentions.  Are you?

You're making a lot of assumptions about other people's intentions here. Perhaps someone arguing for increased taxes on investment income is willing to pay a little more as long as others also pay a little more. Shouting "hypocrites!" based not on what someone said but rather your own assumptions seems a pretty uncharitable conclusion.

To the second bolded point, is this regardless of whether you think a particular tax is fair or logical? Is your reasoning based solely on your personal tax bill or do you consider each tax based on its merit?

I can want to pay as little as possible and hold the opinion that a person in my position should pay more taxes at the same time, no cognitive dissonance required.

Davnasty

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I love love love investing. I like reading about it, and most of all, I like doing it. It makes my brain happy.

I should pay more taxes though. The people protesting super lax investment tax code are right. I want a tax code that draws more from investors and I’d be willing to delay financial independence by several years for it.

Great news!  You can pay more taxes if you want!  The US treasury (as well as most other countries) will gladly take anything you want to donate. 

Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to kick start things and write a check double what you owe the IRS this year as a great example to others!

If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk...

I'm going back to the first post on this idea to elaborate on why I think this is nonsense.

Your point doesn't counter mathlete's position. He said he's in favor of raising taxes on investment income presumably because it would be fair and/or beneficial to society.* These are the reasons one might be in favor of increased taxes. Then he said he would be willing to accept the personal costs a change like this would entail. I don't see any flaw in this logic. He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.

Think of a similar scenario with something a bit more straightforward, like a grocery store. Let's say this is the only grocery store in my area and I depend on them. I find out they're selling food at a loss. If they continue to sell at a loss, they'll inevitably go out of business. What should I do, talk to the owner and tell him that I think they should raise their prices or pay extra at checkout and avoid sale prices?

*I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the idea that US investors should pay more on investment income. I'm only discussing the merit of the common argument davisgang has presented.

Wrenchturner

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Mathlete:"I should pay more taxes".

Davisgang80:"If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk..."

Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.  Only Mathlete knows what he thinks, so we can only speculate, but paying extra tax would lend some credibility to his position.  If this yields less than a system that forces everyone in his situation to pay more taxes, consider it the opportunity cost of his morality.

Personally I think most Western governments would be better off cutting fat and building efficiency and better means-testing, rather than simply throwing more(other people's) money at the problem.  I also prefer private donations and private industry, since it actually seems to consider price discovery, at least to a better degree than governments.

Perhaps if governments didn't break annually(shutdown) and if they could pay their workers reliably(Phoenix pay system in Canada) then skeptics wouldn't be so critical of where their taxes are going.

bacchi

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Mathlete:"I should pay more taxes".

Davisgang80:"If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk..."

Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.

You're conflating "behaving better" with paying more taxes. That's a pretty weak argument. More taxes paid, in aggregate, means that we can accomplish more as a society. That's simply a fact. It's how we have roads and the internet and electricity and a coast guard.

Acknowledging that more taxes paid means more can be done, and that we want more done, is a policy choice.

Davnasty

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.

Why isn't this a good argument? Do you have reasoning to back this position up or is it just how you feel?

Not to mention, this isn't really the argument. It's not a matter of good or bad behavior, it's a matter of what the rules should be.

Do you have any thoughts on the grocery store analogy? Do you agree that I should just overpay for my groceries if the owner refuses to raise prices? Do you see any flaws in the analogy you would like to discuss?


HBFIRE

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More taxes paid, in aggregate, means that we can accomplish more as a society. That's simply a fact. It's how we have roads and the internet and electricity and a coast guard.


"can" is the key word here.  Unfortunately, beyond basic infrastructure, the US government is incredibly wasteful and inefficient with tax money.  Some of us hate giving so much to an entity that will waste it away.  Some of us feel we can be much more efficient with those funds.  In short, there is a limit to how much benefit that taxation will provide.  Basic infrastructure is fine, let us manage the rest and reduce the size of bloated government.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 09:37:15 AM by HBFIRE »

Wrenchturner

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Mathlete:"I should pay more taxes".

Davisgang80:"If you find yourself unwilling to make this move, you might be talking the talk without walking the walk..."

Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.

You're conflating "behaving better" with paying more taxes. That's a pretty weak argument. More taxes paid, in aggregate, means that we can accomplish more as a society. That's simply a fact. It's how we have roads and the internet and electricity and a coast guard.

Acknowledging that more taxes paid means more can be done, and that we want more done, is a policy choice.
I'm suggesting that Mathlete believes paying more taxes is behaving better.  If people want to demonstrate their virtue they should do it through their actions.  I'm not convinced that people actually believe what they say they do until they act it out.  Not out of cynicism but out of pragmatism.  I think many well intentioned ideas fall apart upon their application.

Acknowledging that taxes are often misused also guides policy choices.

Wrenchturner

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.

Why isn't this a good argument? Do you have reasoning to back this position up or is it just how you feel?
Because it's often used to signal virtue rather than embody it. 

Quote
Not to mention, this isn't really the argument. It's not a matter of good or bad behavior, it's a matter of what the rules should be.
Rules are a subset of good behaviour, I need to see the successful example before I buy into the rule.

Quote
Do you have any thoughts on the grocery store analogy? Do you agree that I should just overpay for my groceries if the owner refuses to raise prices? Do you see any flaws in the analogy you would like to discuss?
I think that example was basically nonsense(your word).  Because, in part, a grocer would never do that.  But if they did, perhaps their business would be better off failing and being replaced by a more competent business.  How many other failings of this grocer are you going to correct?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 09:46:30 AM by Wrenchturner »

Davnasty

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Personally I think most Western governments would be better off cutting fat and building efficiency and better means-testing, rather than simply throwing more(other people's) money at the problem.  I also prefer private donations and private industry, since it actually seems to consider price discovery, at least to a better degree than governments.

Perhaps if governments didn't break annually(shutdown) and if they could pay their workers reliably(Phoenix pay system in Canada) then skeptics wouldn't be so critical of where their taxes are going.

I'm commenting on this portion separately, like I said before I was only commenting on the merit of the "just pay more taxes if you think you should" argument before but I also have a thought on the matter of government spending efficiency.

I also want our government to be more efficient and spend less money. I'll vote to support those goals where I can. But while I feel that some of the money I pay in taxes is used inefficiently, another portion is used for purposes that are priceless. Government functions like maintaining a stable currency, providing for the elderly and disabled, protecting citizens from theft and murder are so important that even if only a small portion of the taxes I pay go toward these critical purposes in an efficient manner, it's still worthwhile.

Back to the grocery store analogy, perhaps the owner could make improvements to his operation to lower prices. They could find better suppliers, update the store to be more energy efficient, and better train their employees to be more effective. Perhaps these changes could even lower operating costs enough to make them profitable without raising prices. But if those things aren't happening, they need to raise their prices to stay in business.

Wrenchturner

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Personally I think most Western governments would be better off cutting fat and building efficiency and better means-testing, rather than simply throwing more(other people's) money at the problem.  I also prefer private donations and private industry, since it actually seems to consider price discovery, at least to a better degree than governments.

Perhaps if governments didn't break annually(shutdown) and if they could pay their workers reliably(Phoenix pay system in Canada) then skeptics wouldn't be so critical of where their taxes are going.

I'm commenting on this portion separately, like I said before I was only commenting on the merit of the "just pay more taxes if you think you should" argument before but I also have a thought on the matter of government spending efficiency.

I also want our government to be more efficient and spend less money. I'll vote to support those goals where I can. But while I feel that some of the money I pay in taxes is used inefficiently, another portion is used for purposes that are priceless. Government functions like maintaining a stable currency, providing for the elderly and disabled, protecting citizens from theft and murder are so important that even if only a small portion of the taxes I pay go toward these critical purposes in an efficient manner, it's still worthwhile.

Back to the grocery store analogy, perhaps the owner could make improvements to his operation to lower prices. They could find better suppliers, update the store to be more energy efficient, and better train their employees to be more effective. Perhaps these changes could even lower operating costs enough to make them profitable without raising prices. But if those things aren't happening, they need to raise their prices to stay in business.
I don't think anything the government does is priceless.  If it did, would it then follow that no increase in taxes could be debatable, if the government offers priceless benefits?

If a grocer cannot effectively manage a profit margin on a single item, is it reasonable to expect them to implement the ideas you've suggested?

bacchi

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I'm suggesting that Mathlete believes paying more taxes is behaving better.  If people want to demonstrate their virtue they should do it through their actions.

You realize that this can be turned around, right? Do you make private donations for the roads you use? Are you working with fellow believers to build private roads, built through donations only, or buy land for a privately funded provincial park?

If you want a private donation world to work, walk the walk. Form a group and build that private trans-Canada highway!

Quote
I'm not convinced that people actually believe what they say they do until they act it out.  Not out of cynicism but out of pragmatism.  I think many well intentioned ideas fall apart upon their application.

Indeed. It's why there's not a pure libertarian country.

DadJokes

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Since we're on the argument of taxes, I think people should have the option to opt out of Social Security and Medicare. I would opt out of SS in a heartbeat, as I can generate much better returns with my money than I will in essence get from it. I would probably still pay into Medicare, and even be willing to pay extra into it if it meant that I could access it earlier.

However, if I wanted to retire to another country, shouldn't I have the option to not pay into it and not receive its benefits?

Even better, wouldn't it be great if all of our taxes were broken out into what they actually fund? Perhaps we could receive financial statements every year that broke down all expenses and what our portion of each expense was, as well as what our share of the debt is. People might be willing to do without a few government programs that we currently have, and/or they might be willing to pay more in taxes.

bacchi

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More taxes paid, in aggregate, means that we can accomplish more as a society. That's simply a fact. It's how we have roads and the internet and electricity and a coast guard.


"can" is the key word here.  Unfortunately, beyond basic infrastructure, the US government is incredibly wasteful and inefficient with tax money.

Never worked for a megacorp, eh? It's surprising how inefficient they can be and still make a huge profit.

Quote
Some of us hate giving so much to an entity that will waste it away.  Some of us feel we can be much more efficient with those funds.  In short, there is a limit to how much benefit that taxation will provide.  Basic infrastructure is fine, let us manage the rest and reduce the size of bloated government.

Everyone wants an efficient government.

Davnasty

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Saying "I'll behave better when other people have to also" is a pretty weak argument.

Why isn't this a good argument? Do you have reasoning to back this position up or is it just how you feel?
Because it's often used to signal virtue rather than embody it. 
So the argument itself isn't weak, it's what you assume someone means when they say it.
Quote
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Not to mention, this isn't really the argument. It's not a matter of good or bad behavior, it's a matter of what the rules should be.
Rules are a subset of good behaviour, I need to see the successful example before I buy into the rule.

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Do you have any thoughts on the grocery store analogy? Do you agree that I should just overpay for my groceries if the owner refuses to raise prices? Do you see any flaws in the analogy you would like to discuss?
I think that example was basically nonsense(your word).  Because, in part, a grocer would never do that.  But if they did, perhaps their business would be better off failing and being replaced by a more competent business.  How many other failings of this grocer are you going to correct?

Retailers absolutely have priced themselves too low to be profitable, it wouldn't be the first time. More importantly, that part is hypothetical.

Yes, this is the weakness of the analogy in that they should go out of business and be replaced. Is this what you would like to happen to our government?

HBFIRE

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Never worked for a megacorp, eh? It's surprising how inefficient they can be and still make a huge profit.



I have.  You're correct, there are inefficiencies in new/immature industries.  It's possible to be profitable in this environment as there isn't competition pressure yet.  As the industry matures, inefficiencies get beat out by more efficient competition.  This doesn't happen in government as there is no competition pressure and firing government employees is very difficult.  For this reason, government will never be as efficient as the private sector.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 10:15:53 AM by HBFIRE »

Davnasty

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He never said he wanted to pay more taxes, only that he is willing to do so.
Personally I think most Western governments would be better off cutting fat and building efficiency and better means-testing, rather than simply throwing more(other people's) money at the problem.  I also prefer private donations and private industry, since it actually seems to consider price discovery, at least to a better degree than governments.

Perhaps if governments didn't break annually(shutdown) and if they could pay their workers reliably(Phoenix pay system in Canada) then skeptics wouldn't be so critical of where their taxes are going.

I'm commenting on this portion separately, like I said before I was only commenting on the merit of the "just pay more taxes if you think you should" argument before but I also have a thought on the matter of government spending efficiency.

I also want our government to be more efficient and spend less money. I'll vote to support those goals where I can. But while I feel that some of the money I pay in taxes is used inefficiently, another portion is used for purposes that are priceless. Government functions like maintaining a stable currency, providing for the elderly and disabled, protecting citizens from theft and murder are so important that even if only a small portion of the taxes I pay go toward these critical purposes in an efficient manner, it's still worthwhile.

Back to the grocery store analogy, perhaps the owner could make improvements to his operation to lower prices. They could find better suppliers, update the store to be more energy efficient, and better train their employees to be more effective. Perhaps these changes could even lower operating costs enough to make them profitable without raising prices. But if those things aren't happening, they need to raise their prices to stay in business.
I don't think anything the government does is priceless.
Nothing? Not even the regulation of currency that makes the concept of "price" possible. What about laws against theft and murder and the police/military to enforce those laws? Could you provide these things for yourself? Even if you could, what about children, the elderly, and the disabled?


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If it did, would it then follow that no increase in taxes could be debatable, if the government offers priceless benefits?

Of course not, any increase in taxes is debatable. How to use that tax money most efficiently is also debatable. I'm not following your line of reasoning here.
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If a grocer cannot effectively manage a profit margin on a single item, is it reasonable to expect them to implement the ideas you've suggested?

This seems like you may just be arguing for the sake of arguing. The fact that they charge too little is hypothetical.

ETA: Maybe a simpler way to put it is that how we should be taxed and how the money should be spent are two separate arguments, no analogy necessary. If you feel we shouldn't raise taxes because the money is spent inefficiently then you could use the same argument for every tax dollar you pay. Do you think we should pay no taxes at all?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 10:54:07 AM by Dabnasty »

EvenSteven

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Even if you could, what about children, the elderly, and the disabled?

Easy pickins' for my post apocalyptic, leather-clad motorcycle gang.

BicycleB

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Since we're on the argument of taxes, I think people should have the option to opt out of Social Security and Medicare. I would opt out of SS in a heartbeat, as I can generate much better returns with my money than I will in essence get from it. I would probably still pay into Medicare, and even be willing to pay extra into it if it meant that I could access it earlier.

However, if I wanted to retire to another country, shouldn't I have the option to not pay into it and not receive its benefits?

Even better, wouldn't it be great if all of our taxes were broken out into what they actually fund? Perhaps we could receive financial statements every year that broke down all expenses and what our portion of each expense was, as well as what our share of the debt is. People might be willing to do without a few government programs that we currently have, and/or they might be willing to pay more in taxes.

@DadJokes, here you go. For federal income tax, anyway.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/interactive-data/taxday/

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2018/tax-day-2018/tax-day-2018-notes-and-sources/

mathlete

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Yikes. Apparently I need to keep up better.

Others have covered this, but it is silly to say that I can cut a check to the treasury if I want to pay more in taxes. Of course I can do that. It wouldn't do any good though. What I want, is a tax code that does not treat money earned for not working as superior to money earned from working. Writing a check to the treasury will not accomplish this. It won't help me or anyone else. The amount extra that I can afford to pay amounts to a rounding error on the Federal register.

If I wrote a check, it would be as if that money just vanished into thin air.

mathlete

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More taxes paid, in aggregate, means that we can accomplish more as a society. That's simply a fact. It's how we have roads and the internet and electricity and a coast guard.


"can" is the key word here.  Unfortunately, beyond basic infrastructure, the US government is incredibly wasteful and inefficient with tax money.

Never worked for a megacorp, eh? It's surprising how inefficient they can be and still make a huge profit.

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Some of us hate giving so much to an entity that will waste it away.  Some of us feel we can be much more efficient with those funds.  In short, there is a limit to how much benefit that taxation will provide.  Basic infrastructure is fine, let us manage the rest and reduce the size of bloated government.

Everyone wants an efficient government.

This.

It can be downright painful to witness government inefficiencies. But the profit-seeking world is ripe with inefficiency too. I've been in profit-seeking megacorp land for 10 years now, and I witness so much inefficiency. Fellow megacorp office employees, tell me if any of these situations sounds familiar.

1.) Someone wrote a computer mainframe program in the 1980s. Maybe they worked for your company. Maybe they worked for an outside vendor. Maybe they worked for a company that your company bought or sold a billion years ago. Either way, that person is long gone, maybe dead. But their program is vital to everything your company does, and it is a documentation-less black box. Everyone has to log into an ancient PC whenever they need to use this program.

2.) "That's not going to be me!" You said, as an enterprising young worker for megacorp. You ruthlessly document everything you do, big and small. Then one day, your boss asks you for some quick and dirty analysis. She's got a meeting by 3:00 PM. So you code and you code and you analyze. No time to document, but it's fine, she said quick and dirty. GREAT NEWS! The execs love your analysis. In fact, one of them loves it so much, that he built some big huge decision making matrix on top of it. And now he sends that to 60 people every month, and the all bolt their own tendrils onto it. Five years later, someone runs into a problem, and they trace it back to you, and you say, "What the fuck is this, I've never seen it before?".

3.) Your corp has noticed that an old (but stable) process is incredibly inefficient. So they've appointed a steering committee to build a new process. Meeting #1, a small group gets together and decides on a workable solution. Meeting #2, Jack Steerman brought in 5 other department heads to see how workable this solution is for them. All five of them bring up potential issues. The "do-ers" on the project can't "do" because they're held up by the results of the steering committee meeting. The project dies because everyone has other pressing priorities that they need to tend to.

Federal government work is the same way. When something grows large, it loses nimbleness. Change and adaptation becomes slow and difficult. So why do we allow these things to grow so big? Because big things can do things that small things cannot. And often times, the lack of nimbleness is made up for by economies of scale.

Notch

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.

Do you pay approximately 1.5x your yearly expenses in income tax alone? Does your total tax bill approach 3/5 or 2/3 of your gross income?

If not, would you be happy to do so, without any complaint, all the while facing political calls for even more tax to be levied upon you (because you're apparently, says the populace, still not paying your fair share?)

God, what a whinge.  I pay 1.4x my expenses in income tax.  I don't mind the removal of negative gearing or increase in CGT.

Bloop Bloop

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This is the most whiny, complainypants thread I have ever seen.  I can't even believe I am seeing it on these forums.

Do you pay approximately 1.5x your yearly expenses in income tax alone? Does your total tax bill approach 3/5 or 2/3 of your gross income?

If not, would you be happy to do so, without any complaint, all the while facing political calls for even more tax to be levied upon you (because you're apparently, says the populace, still not paying your fair share?)

God, what a whinge.  I pay 1.4x my expenses in income tax.  I don't mind the removal of negative gearing or increase in CGT.

Why's it whinging to note that our tax burden is especially high?

A number of you have noted you also pay a huge ratio of taxes:expenses - some of you are evidently not fazed by this. Good on you. Do you also pay about 3/5 to 2/3 of your total gross income in taxes full stop?

For the Americans out there, do you think it's fair that a country would take more than half (well more) of someone's income in all forms of tax - income tax, sales tax, import duty, fuel tax, council rates, land tax...

I'm not against the idea of taxing, but I do dislike the attitude that, if some improvement to society can be effected, the best way to effect it is by taxing the wealthy - as opposed to some other method (e.g., subsidising it; taxing everyone a little bit; or similar.) I also think that given how progressive our income tax already is, investors should get more praise for the sheer amount of heavy lifting they already do. If someone was paying my lunch bill, I'd be pretty grateful.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!