Storm E-bike

[Goldielocks]

Bah!  We used to sell eBike full kits for $350-$500, and that was in the early days before volumes picked up.

I say wait for the price point to decline, false advertising about being cheapest, and all that.

Modified to Add:   Yeah, I should state that our kits were for Lead Acid batteries, (it was 2004-2006, after all) but you know what?  Lead Acid will last a full 30 minutes on a strongly boosted bike, and most of the ebike customers don't want longer than that.    Hubs is using extra 10 yr old Lead Acid packs this week to power his home-made robot, (he is building Claptrap)  so lots of future usefulness. 

[Syonyk]

As popularity of this product (electric vehicles posing as bicycles) grows, expect legislation to only increase. I hate to appeal to authority, but as someone who works at a bicycle manufacturer, I can assure you the legal implications of these bikes are a subject of daily conversation.

Why do you expect legislation to increase beyond what it currently is (which, in most areas, means it's fine on streets in bike lanes, and prohibited on sidewalks/mixed use trails/etc)?

It seems like there are actually laws on the books in most areas, so it's not a loophole existing because nobody thought of it.  And in general, 750W/20mph seems entirely reasonable, as that's less than what a typical in shape cyclist can do (maybe a bit better on hills, but nobody really seems horrified at the thought of a bicycle doing 15mph up a steep grade).

I think we've uncovered the reason for the negativity.  Perhaps we can move on now.  :)

I have nothing at all to do with bicycle manufacturers, and I also think it's a silly bike that's going to be exceedingly poor at doing just about everything except making the people who came up with it a lot of money.

- It's not a useful on-road commuter with those tires.
- It's not legal on most mixed use trails as an ebike.
- It's not powerful enough for sand/snow/gravel.
- It's a fixed speed bicycle, so you can't even assist the motor efficiently outside a fairly narrow range of speeds.

For a $500 purchase cost, it might be a decent toy.  For the $1200-$1300 expected retail, it's not worth buying.  And for the $150+ they're charging for shipping, even at the intro price, you can build a much better ebike for that money.

[Russ]

"I hate to appeal to authority, but as someone who works at a bicycle manufacturer, I can assure you the legal implications of these bikes are a subject of daily conversation."

I think we've uncovered the reason for the negativity.  Perhaps we can move on now.  :)

Hardly. I don't push our products on here or IRL. Work comes second to getting people on bikes. Shit I even wish I still owned my bikesdirect commuter, it was that good. This bike is different for reasons clearly outlined above, which I would still love to hear a rebuttal to.

[Russ]

As popularity of this product (electric vehicles posing as bicycles) grows, expect legislation to only increase. I hate to appeal to authority, but as someone who works at a bicycle manufacturer, I can assure you the legal implications of these bikes are a subject of daily conversation.

Why do you expect legislation to increase beyond what it currently is (which, in most areas, means it's fine on streets in bike lanes, and prohibited on sidewalks/mixed use trails/etc)?

It seems like there are actually laws on the books in most areas, so it's not a loophole existing because nobody thought of it.  And in general, 750W/20mph seems entirely reasonable, as that's less than what a typical in shape cyclist can do (maybe a bit better on hills, but nobody really seems horrified at the thought of a bicycle doing 15mph up a steep grade).

As popularity grows I expect clarification between pedelecs and throttled e-bikes, not changing much for pedelecs but certainly placing throttled e-bikes in less favor.

I also expect far more land management restrictions following Moab, which will be in response to the nuisance these bikes create as they grow in popularity. With trail-readiness as a marketing point for this bike, that's a big deal.

[Syonyk]

Fortunately, a 350W single speed doesn't meet any useful definition of "trail ready," so that won't be a big problem. :)

Why do you think throttle controlled ebikes will get regulated moreso than pedelec types?  750W/20mph (which is the limit most places) doesn't lead to anything worse than a decently in shape cyclist on a road/trail?

I haven't seen any particularly negative views towards either type up here in Seattle (other than occasional crap from people who bicycle without motors, which generally goes away once they realize I don't consider myself a bicyclist, and just use the least-awful form of commuting I've found so far).

[Goldielocks]

I see pedestrians growing angst against the throttle evokes that look like small wheeled scooters with foldable pedals. The look like scooters and then the jerks ride them on the sidewalk.  Making old ladies jump out of the way.

I think that they need to add weight restrictions for ebikes, too. Including battery. A cyclist can throw their person out of direct pederstrian impact, but throwing a low to the ground barely legal 'scooter' is harder.  I think some are driving non legal scooters on the sidewalk too. I have seen large men moving pretty fast on throttle only,

[Syonyk]

In general, at least in states I'm familiar with, ebikes are not allowed on sidewalks.  So "enforce the existing laws" is a good solution there.

[Russ]

Why do you think throttle controlled ebikes will get regulated moreso than pedelec types?  750W/20mph (which is the limit most places) doesn't lead to anything worse than a decently in shape cyclist on a road/trail?

On the continuum of bicycle -> pedelec -> throttled e-bikes -> scooter -> motorcycle, the line has to be drawn somewhere. To place that line at "requires / does not require human power" makes sense to a lot of groups for a lot of reasons reaching far beyond speed/safety alone. Even if the output difference between pedelecs and throttled electrics is marginal, the input is wildly different.

[Goldielocks]

In general, at least in states I'm familiar with, ebikes are not allowed on sidewalks.  So "enforce the existing laws" is a good solution there.

They are allowed everywhere bikes are....  So if the sign says " bikes may use path/sidewalk ". They do.   The electric scooters are much wider/larger than ebikes that we discuss here,, and designed to just fall on the legal side, but were not part of the original vision when the law was made.


http://www.citecycles.com/ItaliaMK500w-Premium-new.html

Note the marketing feature of " Pedal cranks are more narrow than on other models"(even smaller fold away vestigal pedals) than our competitors!

Just imagine this trying to share the sidewalk (where posted) with your mother walking her yappy dog.  I definitely think there will be pressure to change laws about ebikes..

[dragoncar]

In general, at least in states I'm familiar with, ebikes are not allowed on sidewalks.  So "enforce the existing laws" is a good solution there.

They are allowed everywhere bikes are....  So if the sign says " bikes may use path/sidewalk ". They do.   The electric scooters are much wider/larger than ebikes that we discuss here,, and designed to just fall on the legal side, but were not part of the original vision when the law was made.


http://www.citecycles.com/ItaliaMK500w-Premium-new.html

Note the marketing feature of " Pedal cranks are more narrow than on other models"(even smaller fold away vestigal pedals) than our competitors!

Just imagine this trying to share the sidewalk (where posted) with your mother walking her yappy dog.  I definitely think there will be pressure to change laws about ebikes..

Often "motorized vehicles" are excluded from paths and sidewalks.  Exact definition can vary, but and electric bike certainly satisfies a plain reading of the phrase "motorized vehicle" in that it is a vehicle with a motor.

[Syonyk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

It's a bit dependent on the state, but sidewalks are specific exemptions in a number of cases for electric bicycles/motorized vehicles (and I also agree that an ebike fits the plain reading of motorized vehicle).

[El Marinero]

Those fat 4 inch wide tires take a lot of energy to roll. ...

If it sounds too good to be true...

A wise perspective, and my thoughts exactly. There is a lot of snake oil for sale in the Electric Vehicle space, and a lack of true breakthroughs.  This reminds me of ZAP motors.

That being said, there definitely are improvements coming in battery technology, but they aren't miracles

[James]

I think the legal issue of where ebikes can travel is best left to another thread. Can we stipulate this is an ebike and leave the rest for another time?


I wouldn't touch this bike, especially early. I think it is pretty clear what they are doing. They purchase dirt cheap and crappy parts from china, and have a Chinese firm throw them all in a box with some assembly. They make the maximum promises possible based on the specs the crappy Chinese firms promise, without any testing or other common sense perspective. Then they build a prototype and limit the exposure enough to keep the problem under wraps and deniable.


Once these ship, they hope and pray enough of them work that they can continue to sell these at some price. Without any warranty or support, they just need to cover the cost of parts and shipping. (oh, lets charge customer for shipping later so they think they are getting an even better deal, genius!)


I would guess it collapses under the weight of complains and lawsuits once people realize there is no support, warranty, or ability to use these pieces of crap once they break down. A few will work for their intended purpose for a while which will be the lucky few. But by then the producers will be off on the next scam, having happily squirreled away millions from this one.


But I hope I am wrong, I hope you post back here with great stories of how awesome they are. I hope I realize later I missed the deal of a lifetime... but I doubt it.

[Sid Hoffman]

Did you see the latest?  Now it's $120 extra if you want the bike within 3 months... after expected delivery date.  Which is May 2015, by the way.  So in other words, you need to spend an extra $120 if you want the bike by August 31st, 2015.  Everybody who doesn't spend the extra $120?  No promises, clearly.

This is how you run a scam.  Delivery date?  Oh, it should be May 2015.  Oh wait, actually no, you need to pay extra if you want it within 3 months after the estimate... since the estimate isn't even remotely based in reality.  The expected delivery date is March 2016, but we want to keep raking in the cash, so we'll pretend the delivery date is May 2015 and laugh all the way to the bank.

[Russ]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that people won't get their bikes. Assuming they want to release all the bikes at the same time, that means waiting 'til the last bike is made to ship. If production quantities are far greater than expected (which it appears they are), it will take a long time to catch up to that. A typical production schedule might run half a year ahead of product releases once manufacturing is all set up, so the May estimate was either incredibly ambitious or must have been for a pretty small run. For comparison, we are wrapping up engineering on 2016 road bikes at work right now and are starting on 2017.

Super shitty to turn a shipping delay into two ship dates and a price increase though. I would assume there was a way to put a timestamp on orders and ship through the queue as bikes are produced. Maybe not.

[dragoncar]

So who ordered one and how do you like it?

[benjenn]

We ordered two of the yellow/orange ones but haven't gotten them yet.  We've gotten the UPS notice they should be here next Tuesday and we can hardly stand it.  Check out the Facebook owners group to see how everyone is raving about them.  Some people have been so thrilled that they've already ordered another one in the next wave.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StormOwnersGroup/?fref=nf

We're on the beach so it's nice and flat here.  We're sure we're gonna love them and can't wait to get them!  We ordered ours back on the first day of the campaign in February so it's been a long wait but we think it will be worth it.  :)

[Syonyk]

I'm pretty excited for them.  I rebuild ebike battery packs (see my blog if you're curious), and I expect an awful lot of these will sit in garages after the first few months of ownership.  If I can get them, rebuild the battery packs (probably with higher capacity batteries, since I'm not getting the cheapest crap I can call an 18650), and flip them around, possibly with a few other other upgrades, it should be a nice little niche.

I don't expect them to be particularly good ebikes, but they'll get rave reviews from people who have never ridden any other ebike or, really, any decent bicycle at all.  I see no way a 350W fatbike can be useful for much, but if you're in the flatlands and haven't ridden anything nicer than a used Walmart bike, I'm sure it'll seem decent enough.  And, really, who am I to say that it's junk of someone likes it?

But they'll be cheap as hell used in a few years.

[k-vette]

I bought two, have beat one up on and off road and use it to commute.  I posted some video on the blog section of my site, www.velomobileshop.com.

[dragoncar]

I bought two, have beat one up on and off road and use it to commute.  I posted some video on the blog section of my site, www.velomobileshop.com.

I guess you don't stop at stop signs even with an electric bike to get you going again?

[Jesstache]

My husband ordered one (blue with black wheels) and we've tested it out and it's very fun.  It's also very heavy so I expect it will be a serious workout to ride if you have to do it with no electric assist.  So far we've only gone short distances with it so I'm not sure about the range.  It LOOKS really nice and it is quite speedy but I have serious doubts about being able to go more than 10 miles at a time.  It works well for us because we live in the city center and rarely need to go more than 3-4 miles from home so the range isn't likely to be an issue here.  Really though, we got it to test out how we'd like having an electric bike and as a tester to see if we'd like to invest in a better quality one in the future.  I'm thinking so.

Also, someone mentioned up thread about paying an extra $120 to be in the first round of shipping and that was not something we had to do at all.  I'm not sure where that came from as I never saw that in any of the backer updates or emails.

[k-vette]

Multiple people have tested the range.  Flat ground, no pedaling ended in 21 miles.  I live in a rather hilly area, so it's probably more like 10 miles with pedaling around here.  Hasn't been an issue yet.

[benjenn]

We got ours and couldn't be happier.  :)

[Sid Hoffman]

The Sondors e-bike made the news today:

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/the-strange-unlikely-saga-of-the-500-storm-127816723624.html

The campaign raised millions overnight, generated buckets of controversy, and led to a series of legal disputes that persist to this day. Now, to the surprise of many, the campaign appears to have delivered some actual bikes — though the bikes themselves fail to deliver on some of the campaign’s original promises. ... A few weeks in, co-founder Hopp was quietly removed from the Indiegogo campaign. ... About a month later, Agency 2.0 filed suit against Sondors and his company, Pacific Storm, claiming that he refused to pay them their cut of the fundraising — more than $600,000.

The bike was initially advertised as weighing 45 pounds; the shipping unit clocked in at nearly 60 pounds. According to the original specs, the bike would go up to 20 miles per hour, achieve a maximum range of 50 miles, and recharge in about 90 minutes. The campaign gradually downgraded most of these specs — for example, the 50-mile range became 30 to 50 miles with pedal assist — but mostly failed to meet even those claims. 

Court Rye, owner of Electric Bike Review, gave the Sondors bike a thorough test drive. He found that it topped out at 18 mph on flat terrain, ran out of juice at around 15 miles, and took 4 hours to recharge.

I'm still surprised and encouraged to see that the bikes shipped at all, especially if the claims in the article about how Sondors stole the design from his neighbor, Jon Hopp, turn out to be true.  Even a 15 mile range for a $500-650 e-bike isn't bad at all, as long as the quality is good enough to keep the bikes in good running order for several years.  My hope is that this will drive the other, larger bike manufacturers to take affordable e-bikes seriously.  Honestly, even a 15 mile range would work for many people who just want to be able to hop out a few miles to a shop or friend's house and home again without getting all sweaty.

[Syonyk]

I just want to see a battery pack teardown. :/

[El Marinero]

It's good to see the updates to this thread.  I've been wondering when the bike would show up.

[Faraday]

I got a big kick out of Russ' passion for bikes/ebikes. I am that fired up in a couple other threads here on the forums and it's important sometimes to get all bent out of shape for a point you vehemently believe in.

I'm an ebike guy (built five so far) and an engineer. I thought the kickstarter was just a scam. But they delivered a majority of the bikes, by golly, and I was surprised. I don't plan to buy since I already have an *ahem* superior ebike. :-)

However, benjenn, you are the pioneers here and we hope to see some postings from you on how you are using your Sondors bikes and how well they are performing for you.

If it motivates you any, post and just rub it in our faces, big-time!

[benjenn]

We've done a couple of 25 mile rides so far (plus several shorter 10 mile rides) and I still had a green light but DH was down to his yellow light... but he weighs about 25 lbs. more than I do and he uses his throttle more, too.  I think we could easily get 40-50 miles on one charge using pedal assist only.  They are AMAZING and they look so awesome.  We never go out without having several people yell out "nice bikes" or stop us to ask us about them.  We even had a woman the other day ask if she could take a picture to put on her blog.  That was a first.

We were the 13th funders on the campaign on February 1 and we got our bikes on August 11th... so it took a little over 6 months but we both agree they were so worth the wait.

We've named our bikes BABS51 and BABS52... Bad Ass Bikes 51 & 52 (mine and DH's ages).  LOL.

I don't care if there are higher quality, better e-bikes out there... they're all WAY more expensive than what we paid for these and they are really awesome.  We couldn't be happier.  :)

[benjenn]

After a 25 mile ride, it takes about 90 minutes to charge the battery.  We've never run them down the whole way so we don't know what a full charge would take but it took about 3 hours to charge the first time when we got the bikes.

We really like how heavy the bikes are.... they feel substantial.  They maneuver really easily.  We like the fat tires, too.  We only ride them on paved trails.

It's an easy 5 mile ride to the grocery store... and we've ridden about 4.5 miles to go play tennis... and done a couple of 25 miles rides along the bike trails at Gulf State Park.  We don't have to commute since we're FIRE'd now... so the bikes will be used for fun most of the time.  We can't wipe the smiles off our faces while we're riding them.  :)

There are quite a few of them being resold on Craigslist and E-Bay... and I would surely think www.gosondors.com is going to start sellling them direct again sometime soon.  I thinkt they're starting a waiting list now.  If you've ever thought about an e-bike... all I can say is do it.  :)

[Faraday]

AWESOME UPDATES benjenn! Keep 'em coming! Mix in some good "tales of FIRE" too. You know we all envy the crap out of you two lucky saps!

[benjenn]

AWESOME UPDATES benjenn! Keep 'em coming! Mix in some good "tales of FIRE" too. You know we all envy the crap out of you two lucky saps!

Haha... will do, mefla.  So far on our e-bike outings, we've seen a couple of alligators (in an area on the trails where they're supposed to be), a couple of lizards and a really big otter!  Hubby tells me all I have to do to see how fast his e-bike will really go is to yell "GATOR!"  LOL.

As for being FIREd, all I can say is that so far (5 weeks in) it's every bit as awesome and wonderful as we dreamed it would be.  Waking up with no alarm every morning is the best.  Making appointments for haircuts and such any time on any day is great.  Cooking has become a great joy.  And so far I've read 8 books and have two others going. We've played tennis a few times (and will again this morning), racquetball and golf.  There are so many things we want to do and plan to do that we haven't even gotten to yet... it just keeps getting better.  Hang in there... you'll see!

[Syonyk]

Another, somewhat less positive review of it, by someone who does "electric fatbikes" as a serious hobby.

http://electric-fatbike.com/2015/08/20/sondors-ebike-reviewed-feel-like-a-real-superhero-until-you-hit-a-hill/

[benjenn]

For those who missed out on the Sondor's e-bikes the first go round, they've opened up a new campaign for them here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gosondors/sondors-electric-bike-most-affordable-ebike-ever?ref=discovery

I know they're not going to work for everyone but honestly, DH and I have had the best time with our e-bikes.  We don't stop smiling the whole time we're on them... we ride them between 10-25 miles several times a week.  We get stopped constantly by people asking about them and taking pictures.  They are just crazy fun.  It feels like being a kid again.  We didn't ride bikes before.  Now we have hundreds of miles on them in the first month we've had them

For $499 plus just under $200 for shipping, I don't see how someone would be unhappy with one.  Plus, they look AWESOME, too!