Author Topic: Sociopaths  (Read 13941 times)

totoro

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Sociopaths
« on: January 16, 2014, 04:20:46 PM »
Along the road to FI there are some potential obstacles, including other people.  I'm not sure we have enough warning about this.

When I was growing up I don't recall personality disorders being discussed, at all.  Maybe it was just my circle, but I don't think so.  I never thought much about it until a university psychology class, but even then it seemed pretty academic and not real.  I, in fact, thought people were like me overall - naturally empathic and oriented towards the general good.  I'm not saying I'm a saint, but everyone I know cared, or appeared to care, about others, and had a natural sense of justice. 

Fast forward twenty years and I can say with certainty that all people are not like this.  I, as a lawyer, have come across a sociopath and have dealt with others with personality disorders.  Of them all, the sociopath was the most disturbing.  This was a person who successfully plotted and planned to gain money from a nice person who was moved to assist her because of the sociopath's hard upbringing. This is a woman who emoted on cue when it served her, but felt no guilt or remorse about lying and trying to destroy others for her own gain.  And she got away with the manipulation because the legal system is often not a good judge of practiced liars with an intelligent story.  And she is now in law school. 

I was thinking about this also because I recently met a high school friend who had also become involved with someone with similar behaviour, to her great financial and emotional ruin.  I looked up the traits and hit on sociopathy, and this book - Confession of a Sociopath by, apparently, Professor Jamie Lund, a law professor and diagnosed sociopath.  It seemed those traits had served her fairly well in law school, and serve others well in their careers.  If you don't care about feelings or experience guilt and remorse, but do care about getting ahead, there is professional success to be had and money to be made.

When I look up the stats it turns out that 4% of the population fit the profile of a sociopath.  That is one in twenty-five.  I don't know if this is accurate, but I am now convinced these disorders are real and they can really derail lives.

So, given that sociopathy, bpd, narcissistic personality disorder, and psychopathy exist, I think it would be a good thing to educate children and yourself on the signs.   While I know that emotionally healthy adults will generally choose emotionally healthy friends and spouses, I believe those of us who want to help people out are vulnerable without this information because we can be moved by empathy and sympathy.

GuitarStv

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 04:38:46 PM »
You're not going to recognize a real sociopath until it's too late.  That's kind of our thing.  Wait, I mean . . . nevermind.

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 04:59:05 PM »
You're not going to recognize a real sociopath until it's too late.  That's kind of our thing.  Wait, I mean . . . nevermind.

Good one!

HappierAtHome

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 05:55:19 PM »
Totoro, I think you're right that we need more awareness of personality disorders, though I think we need to ensure we're not contributing to stigma around them. For example - my mother has BPD, and is a horrible human being who I cannot bear to have in my life (it was her or me, I chose me). However, I know another person with BPD who is lovely and puts in a significant amount of effort to treat people well. I would hate for all people with personality disorders to be put in the "violent, insane" category when some of them... aren't. Like any other group of people, there's a huge variety there. 

On the topic of sociopaths: I work with one. She has been identified as such by several people who have separately come into contact with her and made their own assessment. It was clear within our first few conversations that she saw people as tools to achieve her goals rather than as actual people.

Having grown up with some seriously disturbed relatives including said mother, I'm quick to see the danger signs and back away slowly. Whereas some people around me who have not (yet) learned the hard way, give others the benefit of the doubt well past the point where they demonstrate that they cannot be trusted.

totoro

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 06:23:59 PM »
Sorry to hear about your experience and I do agree about the unfair judgment bit.  And I'm not saying that people in hard circumstances should not be helped.

That said, I think awareness and caution is good as most people think others feel and understand things like they do. The truth is, some people do not experience guilt, remorse or attachment the same way as you might.  Some people don't play nice with others and some people crush others.

I, for one, would never have given these behaviours too much credence before seeing them in action.  They seem more dramatic than real life permits, yet they do exist and they fuel a lot of litigation. 


HappierAtHome

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 06:31:41 PM »
I think awareness and caution is good as most people think others feel and understand things like they do. The truth is, some people do not experience guilt, remorse or attachment the same way as you might.  Some people don't play nice with others and some people crush others.

This is so true. It's also something I have a lot of trouble explaining, when people who have never been close to somebody with a severe personality disorder decide that it's their business to give me a hard time about 'not being a good daughter' to my mother. I can usually identify the people who have had experience with sociopaths and other horrible personalities, like you have Totoro, because they're the ones who nod in an understanding way and say they totally get that some people are too toxic to have in your life.

For me, the big difference is that some people genuinely want to treat others well, and some people aren't even capable of wanting to treat others well (would rather, as you say, crush them). This is what primarily determines how I treat people. The second category of people are best avoided.

Edited to insert missing word.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 06:49:17 PM by HappierAtHome »

englyn

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 06:37:54 PM »
Thank you for this interesting thread.

dragoncar

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2014, 07:21:12 PM »
Never had direct experience with a sociopath... That I know of.


You know what they say: if you can't spot the sociopath in your life, you're the sociopath

Ian

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2014, 09:25:28 PM »
Another book worth considering is The Wisdom of Psychopaths by Kevin Dutton. One thing it emphasizes that I think would be helpful to this discussion is that psycopathy is not an on/off character trait. People are diagnosed as psychopaths when they score high enough on a variety of trait scales, but how they score determines a lot about what kinds of people they are. For example, people who have high scores on everything tend to be violent criminals in prison. People with high scores on everything but with good long term planning tend to be business leaders. Likewise, someone can score very highly but have strong empathy. There's no single profile for psychopaths and everyone probably has a few of the traits to some degree.

Jamesqf

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2014, 09:48:05 PM »
The truth is, some people do not experience guilt, remorse or attachment the same way as you might.  Some people don't play nice with others and some people crush others.

 I might qualify as a borderline sociopath, since I don't really do guilt or remorse (I'm big on attachment, though more often to critters than humans), and for some other reasons.  But (as I see Ian has just posted) what matters is whether one applies short or long term thinking.  Your short-term thinker attains his/her goals by crushing people.  The long-term thinker goes about playing nice by calculation, not natural empathy, and realizes that the crushed may well seek revenge.

If you think of it in terms of game theory, the intelligent sociopath sets about organizing his world into positive-sum games.

Insanity

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2014, 10:40:41 PM »
The truth is, some people do not experience guilt, remorse or attachment the same way as you might.  Some people don't play nice with others and some people crush others.

 I might qualify as a borderline sociopath, since I don't really do guilt or remorse (I'm big on attachment, though more often to critters than humans), and for some other reasons.  But (as I see Ian has just posted) what matters is whether one applies short or long term thinking.  Your short-term thinker attains his/her goals by crushing people.  The long-term thinker goes about playing nice by calculation, not natural empathy, and realizes that the crushed may well seek revenge.

If you think of it in terms of game theory, the intelligent sociopath sets about organizing his world into positive-sum games.

Interestingly enough, pets are the same way --  they are big on attachment but not guilty or remorseful.  They are highly loyal which might make them a bit different than a sociopath -- but they'll still shit on your floors, chew up your furniture or steal your food if the mood suits them ;)



Prof Penny Pincher

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2014, 12:59:48 AM »
For my two cents, personally I don’t like the term disorder, as it implies there is something wrong with these people (myselfincluded)which I disagreewith. I think that any condition, when relatively common (and using the figure you quoted of 1 in 25, is common) then it stops being a disorder, or different from the norm, and just another part of normal. In the same way left handed people are no longer freaks, and blue eyed people aren’t witches,we accept that there are minorities who are in some way different, but still normal.

The fact that you say you have met one shows how many you haven’t realised, and probably how many make an effort to conform to typical social expectations. Considering from my point of view a lot of these involve acting a certain way, or making out that they feel something that they don’t, it’s hard work and they do it purely for the benefit of others. Imagine if you needed to constantly act every time you stepped out of the front door?

Personally I don’t bother to hide what I am (except on a first date ;) ) and am very upfront about it. For most scenarios, it just means people see you as a bit of a dick at times. I think they don’t fully get the difference until it slaps them in the face, such as sitting at a funeral overwhelmed with indifference whilst everyone else is crying. It is very rare to come across a situation where a sociopath did something that the majority of the populace would find appalling, but that’s because the situations are rare.

I’m not going a steal a cookie from someone because it’s not worth the effort, but if the stakes were much higher, and I had the possibility of gaining a large sum of money at the suffering of another, then I certainly would do. I suppose we are lucky in life that cookies are much more common.

Elaine

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2014, 07:33:05 AM »
Eh, I think we've reached an age where practically everyone can be diagnosed with something. There are so many pop psychology books and people self-diagnosing, words like sociopath get thrown around (I think) far more than they actually should.

My only background in this is that my Mom's profession is dealing with people with all variety of diagnosis (schizophrenia, autism, bipolar, the whole 9 yards- she has a PhD and two masters). I talked to her about this and she was saying that what we know consider a "sociopath" in conversation would be what you described, basically a greedy selfish person who is a good liar. According to her, "we used to just call these people jerks". A sociopath is more along the lines of (again, according to someone in the field for 30+ years) someone who could sexually assault his/her sibling, set a building full of people on fire, kill an innocent person, dismember the family dog - then wash their hands, and go eat a sandwich like nothing happened. The kind of person who everyone says, "What a great nice charismatic guy/girl!" but in reality he/she is a serial killer or something. A total separation of acts from self with absolutely no sense of guilt, because the person LITERALLY believes they did nothing wrong. According to her it's VERY extreme and used to be considered quite unusual.

I think part of the reason our culture is obsessed with labeling people who do horrific things with a "disorder", is that in a way it makes us feel better about humanity. Like, he/she isn't an asshole- they're just a sociopath.

For more info on why we have so many more diagnosis of personality disorders or "biochemical imbalances" such as (depression, ADHD, bipolar, anxiety, etc.) I would highly recommend watching American Addict- a documentary available on netflix streaming- it's written and produced by several M.D.s - and includes very interesting information about the growing number of people with all types of diagnosis (as well as the growing number OF diagnosis), and the original marketing of the idea of chemical imbalances versus how in reality it's extremely rare.

Again, I'm not personally a medical doctor- and I'm not saying there aren't people who are sociopaths, or bi-polar, etc. In fact I've met some through my Mom's work- I just think it's extremely rare. ETA: If not "extremely rare", certainly more rare than 1 in 25- which as Prof Penny Pincher points out practically makes something not a disorder at all.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 07:41:53 AM by Elaine »

xingcat

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2014, 07:41:23 AM »
I think one thing to keep in mind is the old adage from airplanes: "Put on your own mask before helping others."

There is something noble about helping other people, but those who will take advantage of you at your own cost (due to sociopathy, cluelessness, or whatever) do so because you're more concerned with helping someone than keeping yourself afloat. To get into even more cliches, a drowning person can take both of you down. Making sure you're financially (and emotionally, and physically) protected should always be the first step in helping others. Otherwise, your ability to help will only last as long as it takes for the other person to drag you down.

You don't need to diagnose mental illness in others to be able to protect yourself. Just know what behaviors are acceptable, what limits you'll put on giving, and how much control you'll allow others to have on your life.

totoro

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2014, 09:28:14 AM »
The thing is that people who form strong attachments and are fundamentally concerned with the welfare of others may need to learn how to protect themselves.  How not to grab a drowning person and get pulled down. 

I, for example, have always operated from the premise that people are fundamentally "good".  I don't think I'm wrong, but choosing to see the best in others could leave you unprepared because not everyone thinks and feels the same way.  The tendency is to believe that others are like you. It is not always a natural thing for people who feel their way through life to not help, regardless of intelligence.

As far as labelling goes, I also find it off-putting and overdone, yet useful in some circumstances because there really are differences in behaviour that can be understood better with diagnostic criteria.  Some people know they are not in the norm and feel quite relieved to have an explanation.  Others might find it harmful.  And still others might be subject to misdiagnosis, which seems to be fairly common.   

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not a psychologist and I don't have the expertise to really analyze the veracity of anything, except my own experiences.  And what I am saying is that those with unusual thoughts and feelings appear to fuel a significant amount of litigation. Imagine the conflict that is caused in the personal lives of those they are involved with.

What is the real cost of conflict?  Time, money, and significant emotional consequences.  To get back to the point of this site, it can derail any plans for FI.

As far as the person I came across who fit into the category of sociopathy, she deliberately planned a course of action for her personal gain, manipulated and lied, and carried out steps without remorse or guilt that most would find inhumane and abhorrent.  Her target, who was quite intelligent, suffered greatly.  She was successful and suffered no consequences, other than karmic ones if you believe in that. 

Now, to prof penny pincher.  It sounds like you think you may fit the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy.  I agree that this is in the range of expected human behaviour.  I can see that it may be helpful in many circumstances not to feel empathy or sympathy or form strong attachments that could impact your rational mind.  For example, litigators, surgeons, corporate leaders, and some government leaders might benefit from this in some situations. 

My post is not about labelling you as disordered.  My post is about warning others that do cry at funerals and feel great empathy for others that there are people who act in self-interest and will not be held back by the same moral/ethical/empathic boundaries.  As you said, if you had the possibility of gaining a large sum of money at the suffering of others, you would do it. 

I would suggest that for those of us who feel our way through life, you seem like a unicorn or tv persona until we actually encounter you, sometimes to our own suffering.

Elaine

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2014, 09:47:37 AM »
Totoro, I agree completely. I think maybe I misunderstood what you were saying in your OP. We are often taught that compassion and empathy are desirable traits and nearly universal. For people like us to whom that behavior is natural and seems almost part of being human, there is definitely a larger risk of being taken advantage of. I had a friend for years who in the end completely screwed me over- I kept rationalizing her selfish behavior with "oh, she'll get me back next time" or "oh, she'd do the same thing for me"- then when the tables turned and I need her help- she was nowhere to be found. I basically nearly ended up losing my apartment because of it (long story) and lost about 1k as well. It's hard because I don't want to be less generous or open just because people like that exist, but at the same time I am too forgiving of the warning signs that someone is really just using you.

dragoncar

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2014, 11:47:58 AM »
For my two cents, personally I don’t like the term disorder
...
 if the stakes were much higher, and I had the possibility of gaining a large sum of money at the suffering of another, then I certainly would.

A sociopath can steal an old lady's life savings and not feel bad about it.  But that doesn't mean they would

An asshole would steal it, regardless of their remorse.  That, my friend, is a disorder in that it is a disturbance to society.

Jamesqf

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 11:53:27 AM »
A sociopath is more along the lines of (again, according to someone in the field for 30+ years) someone who could sexually assault his/her sibling, set a building full of people on fire, kill an innocent person, dismember the family dog - then wash their hands, and go eat a sandwich like nothing happened.

That begs the question, though: suppose a person could do all those things without turning a hair, but has absolutely no desire to do so?  And conversely, another person might be driven to do them, and be overcome with guilt & remorse afterwards?

I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".

Elaine

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2014, 12:01:41 PM »
A sociopath is more along the lines of (again, according to someone in the field for 30+ years) someone who could sexually assault his/her sibling, set a building full of people on fire, kill an innocent person, dismember the family dog - then wash their hands, and go eat a sandwich like nothing happened.

That begs the question, though: suppose a person could do all those things without turning a hair, but has absolutely no desire to do so?  And conversely, another person might be driven to do them, and be overcome with guilt & remorse afterwards?

I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".

Good point, I guess it's hard to know. I guess I thought part of the characterization of being a sociopath was that you basically can't supress those urges- but I don't really know. Interesting too about tastes or intelligence not leading to open conflict with society- I wonder if any studies have been done on that as it relates to our world being more online- I mean there's some truly fucked up stuff online that lots of people seem to be contributing to, but it's so anonymous/private that I guess it's hard to know who is doing what, how frequently, and why.

totoro

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 12:54:25 PM »
I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".

FWIW, my view is that it is actually a very small percentage Jamesfq.  In large groups you will find that a minority of individuals have very low empathy quotient scores. 

The thing is, imo, you can have low empathy but still have a sense of fairness and a moral code developed through logic.  I'm not sure if this might fit better on an autistic spectrum, which is not someone I am concerned with at all as a danger to others. 

What I am concerned with is with who is charming and strategic in the way they plan to get somewhere, and completely socially appropriate on the surface.

What are the warning signs I would look for? 

1. A sad story of some kind.  Lots of people have sad stories and very few of them are a danger to others.  What I have noticed though is that some people try to elicit pity/empathy for their own gain.  Instead of heading to empathy, I now wait and evaluate.

2. Lying. Any inconsistencies are a red flag for me. 

3. Improbable stories.  Sometimes they are true, but mostly they are not.

dragoncar

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 01:00:33 PM »
I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".

FWIW, my view is that it is actually a very small percentage Jamesfq.  In large groups you will find that a minority of individuals have very low empathy quotient scores. 

The thing is, imo, you can have low empathy but still have a sense of fairness and a moral code developed through logic.  I'm not sure if this might fit better on an autistic spectrum, which is not someone I am concerned with at all as a danger to others. 

What I am concerned with is with who is charming and strategic in the way they plan to get somewhere, and completely socially appropriate on the surface.

What are the warning signs I would look for? 

1. A sad story of some kind.  Lots of people have sad stories and very few of them are a danger to others.  What I have noticed though is that some people try to elicit pity/empathy for their own gain.  Instead of heading to empathy, I now wait and evaluate.

2. Lying. Any inconsistencies are a red flag for me. 

3. Improbable stories.  Sometimes they are true, but mostly they are not.

Classic Dexter

oldtoyota

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 01:07:35 PM »
For my two cents, personally I don’t like the term disorder
...
 if the stakes were much higher, and I had the possibility of gaining a large sum of money at the suffering of another, then I certainly would.

A sociopath can steal an old lady's life savings and not feel bad about it.  But that doesn't mean they would

An asshole would steal it, regardless of their remorse.  That, my friend, is a disorder in that it is a disturbance to society.

Sociopaths have no remorse for destroying people, and the only solution is to get away from them somehow.

Some companies breed them. Others don't tolerate them. Sociopaths know the best kinds of companies to work for (the ones that support or ignore bad behavior).

The Sociopath Next Door is a pretty good book.






oldtoyota

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 01:16:02 PM »
Look at this:

"I was not a victim of child abuse, and I am not a murderer or a criminal. I have never skulked behind prison walls..."

Then, the writer goes on to say how his parents didn't take him to the doc for 10 days after he had pain in his side (appendix). Or, the father punches a hole in a door to get to the child he's just fought with...

I'd say that is child abuse.

More: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/confessions-sociopath


ace1224

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 01:17:21 PM »
A sociopath is more along the lines of (again, according to someone in the field for 30+ years) someone who could sexually assault his/her sibling, set a building full of people on fire, kill an innocent person, dismember the family dog - then wash their hands, and go eat a sandwich like nothing happened.

That begs the question, though: suppose a person could do all those things without turning a hair, but has absolutely no desire to do so?  And conversely, another person might be driven to do them, and be overcome with guilt & remorse afterwards?



I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".

i have often thought that too.  i know for a fact there are lots of things i could do without feeling remorse or guilt or obligation.  i just don't want to.  i know that you "aren't supposed to" but that's not why i don't do it. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 01:21:29 PM by ace1224 »

Jamesqf

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
I guess I thought part of the characterization of being a sociopath was that you basically can't supress those urges- but I don't really know.

I suppose that might be true - I've never gone that deeply into psychology - but to me the (in)ability to suppress urges is something quite different, which we see in somewhat more socially acceptable form as people who just can't quit smoking, overeating, gambling, or whatever.  We see a good many of these people express guilt, remorse, &c over their behavior, but they still don't stop.

meadow lark

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 08:16:44 PM »
I have contact on a regular basis with manipulative people.  I hesitate to say sociopaths - some of them are, but not all.  As an extremely empathic person (Probably a disorder also!) I have had to learn to keep myself safe from them.   The way I think about it is seeing them for what they are, not who I want them to be.  I work with a shark.  She is not evil, or bad, in the same way a shark is not evil or bad.  She just is nothing like me, and my expectations of her behavior are that if she had a chance she would eat me.  I don't give her a chance.  In my personal life, the best way to deal with someone like this, is, as Princess Leia said, "back away slowly."  And don't come back.  It's scary.  For a while I worried my son was a sociopath.  Thankfully he doesn't look like that at all now.  But reactive attachment disorder and oppositional defiance disorder look like it.
  And as Totoro mentioned in passing, I think a lot of people on the autism spectrum probably wonder if they are sociopaths.
  Also, I wonder how the current vampire as boyfriend meme is affecting the way teenage girls think.  Vampires are the ultimate sociopaths, and really, sociopaths are metaphorical vampires.

MrsPete

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 03:26:11 PM »
I've encountered a handful genuine sociopaths over the years as a teacher, and they are scary individuals.  Rare, but scary.  I do not believe the 4% number.  Every now and then we have a kid in the high school about whom the teachers say, "It's only a matter of time 'til we see him on the news."  They've not all been the same, and it takes a while to recognize that they are really, really different from the rest of us.  They're missing something in their emotional make-up.  They genuinely don't care whether they hurt someone else.  It just doesn't register with them as "a thing".  Eating the last cookie, stealing someone's ipod, or punching out a kid's tooth -- it's all the same to them. 

Most of them also seem to be compulsive liars and seem to think they're smarter than everyone else (or maybe that's just because they're teenagers).  That type sees lying as a sport -- they want to see just how far they can push the boundaries.  In fact, now that I think of it, every one of them has had one thing in common:  They're all above average in intelligence.  Or, perhaps the truth is that stupid sociopaths exist, but they're all locked up because they get caught doing their evil deeds. 

Some of them seem to get joy from hurting people just because they can.  Some seem to enjoy seeing how much they can get away with.  Others are more stealthy, or perhaps they're smart enough to realize that they can only "score big" so many times, and they don't want to waste them on little things. 

One of these kids I saw years later on TV after he was caught burning a bunch of churches. 

Another killed someone.  They knew he did it, but -- to my knowledge -- he was never caught.  I taught another kid who killed someone, but he didn't have the sociopath traits.   He was just a bad kid in with a bad crowd. 

marty998

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 04:12:30 PM »

Some of them seem to get joy from hurting people just because they can.  Some seem to enjoy seeing how much they can get away with.  Others are more stealthy, or perhaps they're smart enough to realize that they can only "score big" so many times, and they don't want to waste them on little things. 

One of these kids I saw years later on TV after he was caught burning a bunch of churches. 

Another killed someone.  They knew he did it, but -- to my knowledge -- he was never caught.  I taught another kid who killed someone, but he didn't have the sociopath traits.   He was just a bad kid in with a bad crowd.

I Always remember that quote from The Dark Knight about The Joker:

"Some people just want to watch the world burn".

_JT

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2014, 06:19:48 PM »
The thing that most people here seem to be glossing over is that sociopath, psychopath, BPD, schizophrenic are all clinical diagnoses. Meaning, unless you're a mental health professional qualified to evaluate and diagnose those disorders, you have zero business claiming a person is one of those things.

I think this is important, because I hear them get thrown around a lot. My worst relationship ever was with a girl who I and a handful of doctors think was BPD, but because she was never diagnosed I have no business going around labeling her with that term. And it's a descriptor; not an explainer of behavior.

prosaic

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2014, 06:48:37 PM »
I have often wondered just how many of us are what I might call borderline socio/psychopaths, but go undetected because our tastes and/or intelligence don't lead us into open conflict with society.  Indeed, sometimes I think such people are the majority: it's just that they've gotten good at camoflaging behind a screen of "it's for your own good", you know".


The thing is, imo, you can have low empathy but still have a sense of fairness and a moral code developed through logic.  I'm not sure if this might fit better on an autistic spectrum, which is not someone I am concerned with at all as a danger to others. 


I have to point out that equating autism with low empathy used to be common, but recent research shows it is bunk. Moderate-highly functioning autistic people experience empathy at the same or even higher rates than non-autistic people.

As for your sociopathy discussion, I agree 1,000%, and would add that BPD and NPD are two additional issues that people need to be aware of in people. Until you have been the direct report/relative/friend/neighbor of someone with these qualities and who chooses to use various tactics to victimize you, you cannot understand what it's like.

prosaic

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2014, 06:52:56 PM »
The thing that most people here seem to be glossing over is that sociopath, psychopath, BPD, schizophrenic are all clinical diagnoses. Meaning, unless you're a mental health professional qualified to evaluate and diagnose those disorders, you have zero business claiming a person is one of those things.

I think this is important, because I hear them get thrown around a lot. My worst relationship ever was with a girl who I and a handful of doctors think was BPD, but because she was never diagnosed I have no business going around labeling her with that term. And it's a descriptor; not an explainer of behavior.

That's true -- a dx can't be made, especially via internet.

But one can point to a person having qualities of [insert dx] as a framework for understanding behaviors.

ashley

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2014, 09:14:34 PM »
I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone, but I strongly believe my boss is a sociopath (and an asshole). He is a textbook definition, and I've never known anyone like him in my life. It's scary because he will absolutely not hesitate to hurt or steal from anyone if there is even a small chance he will come out ahead. I have watched him damage a lot of lives and not even blink an eye. He is proud of himself when he takes advantage of people.

He has been successful financially thus far, but it's beginning to backfire now as his employees begin to abandon him. About 1/3 of our office is quitting in the next month (myself included!!), and it's not even about the money (which he has tried to take from all of us). I have personally become very depressed as a result of being around him for the past two and a half years. It's very hard to deal with someone in a position of power who doesn't experience empathy at all.

dragoncar

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2014, 11:22:31 PM »
The thing that most people here seem to be glossing over is that sociopath, psychopath, BPD, schizophrenic are all clinical diagnoses. Meaning, unless you're a mental health professional qualified to evaluate and diagnose those disorders, you have zero business claiming a person is one of those things.

I think this is important, because I hear them get thrown around a lot. My worst relationship ever was with a girl who I and a handful of doctors think was BPD, but because she was never diagnosed I have no business going around labeling her with that term. And it's a descriptor; not an explainer of behavior.

I don't think this matters since we are not in a clinical setting, nor are we claiming to make clinical diagnoses.  Moreover, nobody will be taking medical action based on our comments.

I'm not a doctor, but I have no problem saying that my brother has the flu right now.

_JT

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2014, 10:24:30 AM »
Well, yes, you are making diagnoses. That's what the terms mean. That's the whole purpose of my posting, to clarify that words that people* throw around like they're adjectives (sociopath, psychopath, etc) are more than that. They're medical terms with specific definitions. So, while it's extremely likely my ex-gf was on that BPD spectrum, all I can say for sure is that she was a huge jerk. Maybe there was a personality disorder at work; but it really isn't for me to say.

*myself included, if I'm not careful.

For the record, I wouldn't be diagnosing people with the flu, either. If I come down with flu-like symptoms, I will treat it as though that's what it was, but self-diagnosis is also a dangerous habit to get into.

BPA

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2014, 10:41:27 AM »
Although I am not qualified to diagnose, I have a family member who fits the DSM for Borderline Personality Disorder.  She has never really gotten a decent diagnosis of her illness.  GAD and Depression, but there is clearly more going on there.  She is extremely intelligent and knows how to play the game.

Regardless of whether or not she actually has a personality disorder, I stay away from her.  She is dangerous.  She is the one person in this world I am afraid of.  Drama, violence, unpredictability, the ability to find what will hurt someone and use it against them, lying, cheating, denial...

I have compassion for her because we had the same shitty upbringing, but unlike our other siblings and me, she seemed the most damaged by it.  It could have been me who wound up with her issues and I realize that.  But ultimately, I put myself ahead of her.  My other siblings and I protect ourselves, our young families and each other when it comes to her.

We didn't post bail for her because we knew based on past behaviour she'd violate the conditions to spite us.  And I'm really glad I haven't willingly communicated with her in 12 years.  The last time she lashed out at me (she found me in an internet forum), she tried to hurt me with information from more than 12 years ago.  It didn't hurt at all, but it would have back then. 

Edited to add:  In all fairness to her, she didn't ask for bail, her lawyer did and was disgusted that we wouldn't post $8k for her.  I think she knew we wouldn't give it to her.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 11:00:10 AM by BPA »

iwasjustwondering

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2014, 10:43:46 AM »
I think it's silly to split hairs about diagnosis.  Nobody is officially diagnosing anyone here.  If my brother has the flu, I can't and shouldn't prescribe medication, but I can keep my distance from him, especially if I haven't had a flu shot.

If someone around me is exhibiting numerous known, published traits of sociopathy, I can and should stay away from that person as much as possible.  I should consider the personality disorder when deciding whether or not to try to help the other person, or save him, financially or otherwise.  That's why doctors and other experts publish books, to educate the masses about how to be or not be around sociopaths.

Being able to recognize major categories of illnesses isn't hard for lay people to do, and it is downright advisable in many circumstances. 

totoro

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2014, 12:25:19 PM »
I think it is wise to be aware of the diagnostic criteria in the dsm V for:

bpd, sociopathy (antisocial personality disorder), and narcissistic personality disorder

This does not mean you are qualified to diagnose someone or that you should start labelling your neighbours, but forewarned is forearmed. 

Why?  I've already pointed out that there is the potential for significant harm because some folks with these traits manipulate others to their advantage with no regard for their impact on others.  Will this happen to you?  Probably not.   

The people who really understand this are the people who have crossed paths with someone exhibiting these traits to their peril.  Many others would be like me, know that this is a diagnosis, but not really believe:

a. it could impact you; or,
b. it is psychobabble.

Neither a nor b are true imo.  You can protect against the impact by understanding the traits.  You can still think the best without making yourself vulnerable.

dragoncar

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2014, 01:29:47 PM »
Well, yes, you are making diagnoses. That's what the terms mean. That's the whole purpose of my posting, to clarify that words that people* throw around like they're adjectives (sociopath, psychopath, etc) are more than that. They're medical terms with specific definitions. So, while it's extremely likely my ex-gf was on that BPD spectrum, all I can say for sure is that she was a huge jerk. Maybe there was a personality disorder at work; but it really isn't for me to say.

*myself included, if I'm not careful.

For the record, I wouldn't be diagnosing people with the flu, either. If I come down with flu-like symptoms, I will treat it as though that's what it was, but self-diagnosis is also a dangerous habit to get into.

That's a very Anal retentive approach to internet discussions about strangers, and I suggest you get that checked out.

BPA

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2014, 02:56:20 PM »
Well, yes, you are making diagnoses. That's what the terms mean. That's the whole purpose of my posting, to clarify that words that people* throw around like they're adjectives (sociopath, psychopath, etc) are more than that. They're medical terms with specific definitions. So, while it's extremely likely my ex-gf was on that BPD spectrum, all I can say for sure is that she was a huge jerk. Maybe there was a personality disorder at work; but it really isn't for me to say.

*myself included, if I'm not careful.

For the record, I wouldn't be diagnosing people with the flu, either. If I come down with flu-like symptoms, I will treat it as though that's what it was, but self-diagnosis is also a dangerous habit to get into.



That's a very Anal retentive approach to internet discussions about strangers, and I suggest you get that checked out.


*giggle*

oldtoyota

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2014, 03:16:33 PM »
The thing that most people here seem to be glossing over is that sociopath, psychopath, BPD, schizophrenic are all clinical diagnoses. Meaning, unless you're a mental health professional qualified to evaluate and diagnose those disorders, you have zero business claiming a person is one of those things.

I think this is important, because I hear them get thrown around a lot. My worst relationship ever was with a girl who I and a handful of doctors think was BPD, but because she was never diagnosed I have no business going around labeling her with that term. And it's a descriptor; not an explainer of behavior.

That's true -- a dx can't be made, especially via internet.

But one can point to a person having qualities of [insert dx] as a framework for understanding behaviors.

Exactly. I'm not going to split hairs. If someone is, or is acting like, a sociopath, I'm getting the hell away.






garth

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2014, 06:35:22 PM »
I heard (an encore broadcast) of this interview with ME Thomas (a diagnosed psychopath) on the radio a few weeks ago. Very interesting.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Q/ID/2399149669/

totoro

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2014, 07:07:39 PM »
Yes, ME Thomas is apparently law professor Jamie Lund and states she has been diagnosed as a sociopath.

BPA

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Re: Sociopaths
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2014, 01:35:20 PM »
Wow!

I looked up the list of indicators that one may be a sociopath after reading this thread. We have a close relative that has a lot of them. She plays the victim role. She has her parents support her in an upper middle class lifestyle on what appears to be a permanent basis, even the couple years she did work full time. She would brag so much that her boobs were bigger than her sister's, so the parents ended up getting the sis a boob job. She is in her third attempt at higher Ed school. She complains about how poor she is, how many health problems she has, etc. She has had issues with substance abuse. Almost everytime we see her we are told by her that she is pretty, smart, etc. One time when she was engaged, she was going to break it off with the guy but went on a spending spree on his credit card first. She has been verbally and physically abusive to her mom. Compulsive shopping has happened a lot, and she has used her mom's credit card against mom's will to rack up hundreds of dollars.

Now, I think that a lot of this comes from it being permitted by the mom. We end up seeing her a handful of times a year, not by our choice. She has not asked for a lot of favors from us, but we are worried about when the parents are gone that she will rely on us for family support. I believe the will is set up so that we are to dole out the inheritance money to her monthly because she couldn't manage a lump sum. She and the sister bicker about what of the mom's jewelry they will inherit.

I don't know if she has any diagnoses, but she is just as difficult as someone that does. It is hard to know how to handle this famil situation.

It might seem heartless, but my advice is do not give her your own money ever, and take several steps back if she starts manipulating you.  You need to put some solid boundaries in place and not budge on them.  She will learn that you can not be manipulated. 

In our case, I feel really bad for my mother.  It must be really hard to have a child with a personality disorder or something like one.  It's really hard not to enable when you care.