Author Topic: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check  (Read 30572 times)

Paul der Krake

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So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« on: October 10, 2020, 09:27:35 PM »
This post is aimed at Americans who have been thinking of jumping over the pond and seeing if grass is greener on the other side. Resurgence in these types of discussion tend to happen like clockwork around elections, so I figured I would write this once and for all.

What is even Europe?

If you take anything away from this wall of text, let it be this: there is no such thing as the European experience. Depending on how you count, there are about 30 countries in “Europe”, and the definition is quite malleable. You can stretch it even further and include old soviet states like Ukraine, or even the westernized city of St Petersburg in modern day Russia.

You know how US states have their regional variations of food, pastimes, accents, stores, and so on? While going to vacation in Hawaii or Maine or Kansas sometimes feels like you stepped into a different country, the truth is that those differences are pretty benign. There is still a distinct Americanness to all 50 states and even the territories. That is not the case in Europe. The EU is a supra-national union, which means it’s a union that sits above the states, and has limited influence. Almost nobody considers themselves European. That’s not a thing. Even neighboring countries with deep economic ties don’t mingle that much. If a Frenchman and a German want to communicate, statistically they will switch to English because they simply aren’t that likely to know each other’s language.


Europeans just have their shit together when it comes to $topic, while the US does not

This is something you often hear from the American left. A topic will be discussed, and the most prominent european policy will be used as a rhetorical question as to why it can’t be done here. Odds are, if Sweden is mentioned, you’re about to hear about the generous 16 month maternity leave policy. If France is mentioned, it’s going to be the lengthy summer vacation. If the UK is mentioned, the NHS is about to make a guest appearance (but no mention of the terrible teeth Brits are known for having). This will then be contrasted to the worst possible state of the US problem. Whether it’s the total lack of paid vacation, student loans, or the odds of dying by gun violence, it almost never represents the median experience of Americans, and certainly not the experience of Americans who know what they’re doing. But boy they sure make it sound like it does.

If you paid attention to the previous section, you should already be skeptical, because, and I cannot say this enough: there is no European standard. Whether it’s healthcare, vacation policy, abortion, immigration, criminal justice, minimum wage, individual freedoms, you name it. All of this is a matter for individual states and they often have different priorities and very different ways of doing things.

So don’t compare “America” to “Europe”. Compare “Boston” to “Berlin”. Specifics matter. A lot.

Nutjobs and deplorables

They are everywhere, because idiocy knows no borders. While I personally believe the average “American” is significantly less informed than the average “European”, the fact is that there are shitty people everywhere. With a pool of hundreds of millions, you're bound to encounter quite a few of them. Far right parties are a thing in all western democracies and a substantial share of the population votes for them. The market for essential oils is huge in France. People are destroying 5G cell phone towers in the UK. Germany has actual neonazis rallies. Hungary and Poland insist on electing dangerous authoritarian leaders who shit on minorities and gays all day long. There is even a canton in Switzerland where women couldn’t vote until 1990 (not a typo). Anti-vaxxers are a thing there too.

The one redeeming factor here is that Europe is generally less polarized and extremes aren’t as likely to be handed a megaphone to spread their drivel. But make no mistake, the crazies are out there.

While Europeans outnumber Americans, what they lack is a common identity and language that utterly dominates the internet. This means that batshit insane shit that happens next door gets fewer eyeballs than batshit insane shit that happens stateside because there is no reddit/buzzfeed amplification machine at work. In recent years the political situation in the US has shone a very bright light on the country’s problems. As a result, there’s a smugness among some Europeans that has developed that can be summed up as “phew, at least we’re not as screwed as they are”.

Building wealth and redistribution

If you are even slightly capable, you will almost certainly make, and keep, more money in the US. European wages are low. Laughably low by American standards. You know how everything seems more efficient and less wasteful in Europe? It’s because there is very little fat to trim. I could bring up statistics and try to paint a picture of the median worker and blablabla but it won’t drive the point home. Instead, I encourage you to research what you could expect to make in your own field, in the country of your choice. You can try to make the numbers look better by arguing for various perks. Health care is cheap! More vacation! But chances are, unless you’re already quite underpaid, you’re going to be disappointed. A nurse in San Francisco makes $110,000. A nurse in London makes £30,000.

Ignoring the “lesser” member states for a second, it is true that European countries are generally more fiscally progressive and offer more generous benefits than US states. Does the increased equality justify taking a paycut to fund other people’s shortcomings? You decide.

You will not find a great DIY-your-retirement system and the accommodating tax code that comes with American-style 401(k)s and its ilk. The UK has ISAs, Switzerland has pillars, but guess what, there’s a reason nearly all FIRE bloggers are in the US.

There is also this weird perception that the poor are helped and live generally dignified lives. To this I say: bwahahaha! The poor live in shit neighborhoods, have shit neighbors, and generally hobble through life just the same, rather shittily.


I studied in $european_city for a semester and loved it!

You had a long vacation as an attractive and outgoing upper middle class youngin in a dense city filled with other attractive and outgoing youngins. Of course you had a blast. How could you not?

Why do you hate Europe so much?

I don’t. In fact I’d love nothing more than deeper understanding and closer integration between my two homes. But man I’m tired of hearing the same tired clichés.

Go out, get a job or a retiree visa, and venture out across the pond. Change is good. Maybe you’ll love it there, maybe you won’t. You won’t know until you try.

PDXTabs

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2020, 10:53:47 PM »
There is also this weird perception that the poor are helped and live generally dignified lives. To this I say: bwahahaha! The poor live in shit neighborhoods, have shit neighbors, and generally hobble through life just the same, rather shittily.

I am in the demographic where it is better for me to live in the USA. But I would remind you that people in the USA with no children get ~$0 of welfare per year. Additionally, there are still 14 US states where poor people do not have guaranteed access to health care. As a US/UK dual national, I know exactly where I would live if I were poor, and it isn't the USA. That isn't even counting access to higher education or gun violence which is remarkably better in the vast majority of Europe.

elysianfields

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2020, 11:13:36 PM »
Great post, Paul, you highlight many of the important issues.  If you like history, different cultures, the arts, yeah, Europe's got it.  And every country is beholden to its history.  To cite merely one example, in Germany, lack of decent affordable housing has remained a problem since the end of WW II.

From a FIRE and big three expenses perspective, affordable public transportation in Europe kicks America's ass.  Cities in Europe tend to feature much denser population - perfect for building public transit systems - and relatively less available, and therefore more expensive parking.  Gas and diesel, insurance, and auto registration taxes cost a fortune.  In a compact European city, you're much more likely to live closer to your work than in America, and a family can usually make do with just one car.  During our FS tours in Europe we went car-free for four years, and rented when we needed one, removing opportunity, maintenance, and insurance costs.  We finally bought an inexpensive old car when our kids started driving so that they could learn stick; we only drove it to visit friends and family, explore the countryside, go on vacation, or for the occasional large order at a supermarket.

However, you're going to pay through the nose for rent or your mortgage (though mortgage interest isn't typically deductible, meaning interest rates are lower) on a tiny place in most European cities, not to mention heating bills on much of the continent.  But with tiny closets and limited storage, Europeans tend to have less stuff than many Americans.  They have fewer items of mix & match clothing and wear them more frequently, fewer single-use kitchen gadgetry, etc. because there's no place to put them.

We found food prices higher for comparable quality in Yurp compared to, e.g., the Washington, DC metro area.

While you note the wide variability in health care, you probably won't go bankrupt in Europe due to a health issue, the way you might in the US.  OTOH, "orphan" diseases which afflict relatively few people don't attract much investment, since governments realize less bang for their crown/forint/pound/euro.  Consequently, families facing "orphan" diseases sometimes choose to emigrate to America, where health care is expensive but provides bigger payouts necessary for making medical research more profitable.

Finally, I'll venture to say that secondary education in many American states cannot hold a candle to that in much of Europe.

Elysian

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2020, 11:49:56 PM »
Great post, Paul, you highlight many of the important issues.  If you like history, different cultures, the arts, yeah, Europe's got it.  And every country is beholden to its history.  To cite merely one example, in Germany, lack of decent affordable housing has remained a problem since the end of WW II.

"The arts" function quite differently in Europe and the US. As with any discipline and industry, it depends on what your goals are. In visual arts, the US commercial art market tends to be stronger and dominate conversations. Art in Europe tends toward the more theoretical. As an art practitioner I will say - related to the comment above from the UK/US dual citizen - the EU is a good deal kinder to experimental / non-commercial artists and the accompanying irregular income.

IMO many areas of the EU are great for studying/retiring in, generally not for one's peak earning years. But as Paul mentioned, there are many economies within Europe.

* Not an EU citizen but have studied and invested there and am in an extended process of immigrating to Greece

Paul der Krake

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 12:08:25 AM »
There is also this weird perception that the poor are helped and live generally dignified lives. To this I say: bwahahaha! The poor live in shit neighborhoods, have shit neighbors, and generally hobble through life just the same, rather shittily.

I am in the demographic where it is better for me to live in the USA. But I would remind you that people in the USA with no children get ~$0 of welfare per year. Additionally, there are still 14 US states where poor people do not have guaranteed access to health care. As a US/UK dual national, I know exactly where I would live if I were poor, and it isn't the USA. That isn't even counting access to higher education or gun violence which is remarkably better in the vast majority of Europe.
Well, unless you take a very narrow view of what constitutes welfare, the first part is simply not true. Plenty of anti-poverty programs have eligibility requirements that don't require having children. In the UK the universal credit is around £600, not exactly generous. And ironically enough, nearly all European countries rely to a much greater extent on VAT, so in practice US taxation is a lot more progressive.

But to your broader point about where life is better if you're poor, that used to be my position too, the Rawls veil of ignorance and all that. Now, I'm not so sure. Is the life of your median poor person in the UK marginally better than that of your median poor American? I'm leaning yes, but it's not clear cut. Yes, US healthcare is a dumpster fire and yes some people go bankrupt because of it. But between the charity writeoffs, free clinics, and simply not paying your bills, I'm not sure the day to day lived experience is that different.

So yeah, if I knew at birth that I'd be poor and could choose which country to experience that in, I'm really not sure which one I'd choose. It's a lot more nuanced and highly specific on the reasons why someone finds themselves in poverty. In either case, it fucking blows. I've witnessed pretty abject misery in the UK when I lived there, and I've noticed pretty abject misery in the US too. I do think the US welfare system is exceptionally difficult to navigate though. It's really weird trying to come up with a misery index to determine who has it the worst.

deborah

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 12:43:24 AM »
Perhaps you should look at this - the percentage of poor people in each country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

dadbod

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 05:36:58 AM »
Ha, guilty!  I've been considering posting a question about this and here's my opportunity.  Yes, if the election doesn't go our way my husband and I have talked about moving to a French city (not Paris).  I work for a French company and my boss has been trying to get me to do a one or two year ex-pat stint there for some time.  Strongly hinted that it would be good for my career.  I've been to this city many times and love it, but I've always stayed in a nice hotel in the nice part of town and expensed everything, which would not be the case if we moved there.

We are concerned that we don't speak the language, that we will be lost without a community, that as a gay male couple with a kid we will be seen very strangely, and that my husband (who probably wouldn't work while there) would be very isolated. 

I still think I'm up for it if we can deal with some logistics on our side - what to do with our house, personal items, and pets???  Finances would be okay - paid US salary plus housing / childcare stipend / car.  When talking with colleagues in my company that have done this, the thing they flag as most difficult is the experience of the non-working spouse and I'm really concerned about that.  Not sure how to address it other than look for ex-pat communities.  In an odd Covid twist, husband realized his work could be done remotely so there is a chance he'd work while there which would help (but then childcare?).

Any truth bombs you want to drop on me?

Linea_Norway

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 06:01:35 AM »
Ha, guilty!  I've been considering posting a question about this and here's my opportunity.  Yes, if the election doesn't go our way my husband and I have talked about moving to a French city (not Paris).  I work for a French company and my boss has been trying to get me to do a one or two year ex-pat stint there for some time.  Strongly hinted that it would be good for my career.  I've been to this city many times and love it, but I've always stayed in a nice hotel in the nice part of town and expensed everything, which would not be the case if we moved there.

We are concerned that we don't speak the language, that we will be lost without a community, that as a gay male couple with a kid we will be seen very strangely, and that my husband (who probably wouldn't work while there) would be very isolated. 

I still think I'm up for it if we can deal with some logistics on our side - what to do with our house, personal items, and pets???  Finances would be okay - paid US salary plus housing / childcare stipend / car.  When talking with colleagues in my company that have done this, the thing they flag as most difficult is the experience of the non-working spouse and I'm really concerned about that.  Not sure how to address it other than look for ex-pat communities.  In an odd Covid twist, husband realized his work could be done remotely so there is a chance he'd work while there which would help (but then childcare?).

Any truth bombs you want to drop on me?

First rule for when you are going to live in another country is learning the local language. That makes it much easier to get in touch with local people. And you will be able to hear and read what is going on. Never mind that French people will never be impressed by your language efforts no matter how hard you try.

PVD_Kev

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 06:26:00 AM »
I spent my summers in Canada growing up. I'm a US citizen but I feel like I know Canada well.  I would gladly live there were it not for the immigration and family challenges (no small things!).

But having said that, some of the most bat$hit things I have heard have been from white, male, older Canadians.  Belief in wild conspiracies knows no borders (thanks internet!).

Bloop Bloop

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 06:29:49 AM »
I'm an Australian lawyer

Australian lawyer graduate salary (top tier, 99th percentile) - $85k (US $60k)
American lawyer graduate salary (BigLaw) - $160k

Australian lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - $250k (US $170k)
American lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - no idea but it would be a lot higher!!

Australian Porsche 911 cost = $235k (US $160k)
American Porsche 911 cost = $95k

If you look at the all-important "graduate salary: porsche 911" ratio, Australia lags tremendously, as would most of Europe.

Americans in high skilled jobs, or Americans who like nice things, have no idea how much better they have it in America compared to anywhere else in the world.

LWYRUP

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 08:08:26 AM »
My parents immigrated from Europe, two different countries so I know it well.  Lots of wonderful things, but also some shitty things, just like here.  I like Europe a lot and have at times considered moving back but my credentials don't transfer well (and it is far easier to build wealth as an UMC american).

Anyone who thinks that Europeans are uniformly sophisticated and well informed about things needs to meet my cousins.  (Who are good people, but, yeah.)

Thanks for the post. 

Chrissy

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 08:34:43 AM »
I'm an Australian lawyer

Australian lawyer graduate salary (top tier, 99th percentile) - $85k (US $60k)
American lawyer graduate salary (BigLaw) - $160k

Australian lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - $250k (US $170k)
American lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - no idea but it would be a lot higher!!

Australian Porsche 911 cost = $235k (US $160k)
American Porsche 911 cost = $95k

If you look at the all-important "graduate salary: porsche 911" ratio, Australia lags tremendously, as would most of Europe.

Americans in high skilled jobs, or Americans who like nice things, have no idea how much better they have it in America compared to anywhere else in the world.

What is the debt load for the education in Australia?  The average law graduate in the US has student loan debt of $146k.  The median for doctors is $200k just for med school, they also have $25k for undergrad.  You have to have a high starting salary if you're trying to crawl out from under that kind of burden.

Fi(re) on the Farm

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2020, 08:41:03 AM »
This is so timely - my cousins, who live in part of the EU, have been trying to get me to get a passport from their country. I'm eligible and may just do it but mostly because it would make it easier to stay with my uncle for a longer period of time when I retire. I don't really have any illusions, their country has elected a few white nationalists in the past couple of elections. The wine is cheaper though so that's a plus!

dadbod

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2020, 08:44:03 AM »
Ha, guilty!  I've been considering posting a question about this and here's my opportunity.  Yes, if the election doesn't go our way my husband and I have talked about moving to a French city (not Paris).  I work for a French company and my boss has been trying to get me to do a one or two year ex-pat stint there for some time.  Strongly hinted that it would be good for my career.  I've been to this city many times and love it, but I've always stayed in a nice hotel in the nice part of town and expensed everything, which would not be the case if we moved there.

We are concerned that we don't speak the language, that we will be lost without a community, that as a gay male couple with a kid we will be seen very strangely, and that my husband (who probably wouldn't work while there) would be very isolated. 

I still think I'm up for it if we can deal with some logistics on our side - what to do with our house, personal items, and pets???  Finances would be okay - paid US salary plus housing / childcare stipend / car.  When talking with colleagues in my company that have done this, the thing they flag as most difficult is the experience of the non-working spouse and I'm really concerned about that.  Not sure how to address it other than look for ex-pat communities.  In an odd Covid twist, husband realized his work could be done remotely so there is a chance he'd work while there which would help (but then childcare?).

Any truth bombs you want to drop on me?

First rule for when you are going to live in another country is learning the local language. That makes it much easier to get in touch with local people. And you will be able to hear and read what is going on. Never mind that French people will never be impressed by your language efforts no matter how hard you try.

I've tried - took French 101 and 102 at local community college when I started the job and I'm reading Harry Potter in French (slow going).  I got to the point where I could handle small daily interactions - restaurants, stores, taxis, etc. - but deep interactions in French are still impossible.  Time-permitting, we'd take French lessons if we went over there.

I got a lot of mileage out of "je suis desole.  je ne parle pas Francais."  [I'm sorry.  I don't speak French.]

Bloop Bloop

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2020, 09:13:58 AM »
I'm an Australian lawyer

Australian lawyer graduate salary (top tier, 99th percentile) - $85k (US $60k)
American lawyer graduate salary (BigLaw) - $160k

Australian lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - $250k (US $170k)
American lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - no idea but it would be a lot higher!!

Australian Porsche 911 cost = $235k (US $160k)
American Porsche 911 cost = $95k

If you look at the all-important "graduate salary: porsche 911" ratio, Australia lags tremendously, as would most of Europe.

Americans in high skilled jobs, or Americans who like nice things, have no idea how much better they have it in America compared to anywhere else in the world.

What is the debt load for the education in Australia?  The average law graduate in the US has student loan debt of $146k.  The median for doctors is $200k just for med school, they also have $25k for undergrad.  You have to have a high starting salary if you're trying to crawl out from under that kind of burden.

A law degree will run you $30-$40k in debt here. Not much.

But I'd still rather take American debts and American salaries over Australian salaries. The ceiling here is just too low.

daverobev

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2020, 09:16:54 AM »
If the UK is mentioned, the NHS is about to make a guest appearance (but no mention of the terrible teeth Brits are known for having).

...

But man I’m tired of hearing the same tired clichés.

Me too!

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32883893

Quote
Average number of missing or decayed teeth at age 12 (2008 figures)
...
Denmark, Luxembourg, United Kingdom    0.7
US (2004 figure)    1.3

https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/news/20151216/are-british-teeth-really-worse-than-american-teeth#1

Quote

Are British Teeth Really Worse Than U.S. Teeth?
Study finds the English may actually have slightly better dental health
...

Researchers have found evidence that British oral health is actually as good, or even better, than it is in the States.

But Americans may place greater emphasis on getting their teeth straightened, tackling overcrowding, and whitening up a yellowing smile, one U.S. dentist suggested.

"For at least 100 years there has been a popular belief in the U.S. that Americans have far superior teeth to the English," said study co-author Richard Watt, head of dental public health and a professor of epidemiology and public health at University College London in England.

This impression, he noted, has many popular culture reinforcements, ranging from tooth-challenged British characters in the popular TV show "The Simpsons" to the "grotesque smile" of Mike Myers' "Austin Powers" character.

"However, no detailed research has examined if this is actually true or not," Watt said.

"[And] our results showed that Americans do not have better teeth than the English," he added. "In fact, they had significantly more missing teeth, and inequalities in oral health were much worse in the U.S. compared to England."

The study is published in the Dec. 16 issue of BMJ.

Watt and his colleagues compared data from nearly 16,000 Brits and 19,000 Yanks that had been collected by the English Adult Dental Health Survey (ADHS) and the U.S. National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES).

Overall, American adults were found to have a higher average number of missing teeth than their British counterparts: 7.31 versus 6.97, the study revealed. The difference was most pronounced in people between the ages of 25 and 64 years old. Americans in that age group had lost an average of almost one extra tooth than their English peers, the study showed.


But I am totally on board with 'Europe is not a country'. It is baffling how many people say anything "about Europe" - "Europe is x", well, no, a bit may be.

What is mostly true, in the EU at least, is that the USA is more right-leaning/individualist. I won't say 'conservative' because I happen to believe that word has been subverted. And the cost of fuel and taxes are higher pretty much across the board; of course, in return you tend to get healthcare included.

Everything else? Climate, culture, whatever, you can find whatever you want.

As they say - Americans think 100 years is a long time, but (cough) Europeans think 100 miles is a long way.

Paul der Krake

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2020, 10:20:25 AM »
If the UK is mentioned, the NHS is about to make a guest appearance (but no mention of the terrible teeth Brits are known for having).

...

But man I’m tired of hearing the same tired clichés.

Me too!

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32883893

Nice! I always took this belief at face value and it was reinforced whenever I met someone with bad teeth. Good that someone took the time to check the data.

FINate

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »
Great post! I lived/worked in Germany as an expat for a year. Loved it there, incredibly grateful for the experience. By no means am I an expert on "Europe" or even Germany. It should be noted that Germany itself is rather more like a collection of smaller countries, so really I'm most familiar with one small part of Bavaria. Yet although wonderful, for many of the reasons listed above, I personally would not choose to live there long-term.

To this list I would add much less economic dynamism. I don't want to overstate this since entrepreneurship certainly exists, just less so compared to the US. At the risk of overgeneralizing: the US economy experiences a lot more innovation and disruption, whereas the "EU" is dominated more by entrenched industries. Is this good or bad? I guess it depends on what you value: economic expansion vs. stability. IMO, it's easier to value stability if you grew up in privilege, got on the "right" education track, went to the "right" university, and landed a life-long job at a big stable company. For everyone else, however, it's not as clear. My BIL is German and didn't attend university. He much prefers living in the US where he has started a successful company, something he says would be nearly impossible for him to do in Germany due to his lack of formal higher education.

RE nut-jobs and deplorables: Yes, they absolutely exist in Europe. But due to the aforementioned economic stratification, most Americans don't encounter them. The big tourist destinations in the EU are where affluence and status converge, usually in the urban core. Look to outer rings of the suburbs and working-class rural towns. Anyone here following Mouvement des gilets jaunes? Americans don't travel to these areas because, well, they aren't very nice/interesting, which is why they aren't tourist destinations. Also, the Europeans that tour the US are almost always affluent with advanced degrees. Where do the other half vacation? Head to the budget resorts in lesser traveled areas of the Mediterranean during the month of August and you'll see. Contrast this with new-money Americans traveling in EU: zero cultural sensitivity, demanding everyone speak English, talking louder and louder if they aren't understood...so embarrassing. All this to say, there's an awful lot of selection bias.

Finally, the "Europe has trains, so should we" thing drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I love trains. But the reason trains are so great in much of Europe is largely due to superb urban planning. Most EU cities/towns are dense and walkable, and there's much less urban sprawl than the US. This is an area were Europe (and most of the world) really does way better than the US. In other words, mass transit is a natural outgrowth of good urban planning, it's not a panacea for poor urban planning. Putting a light rail through your low density suburban city isn't going to make it feel more "European" nor will it be sustainable or generally useful beyond commuter rail for a small percentage of the population.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 10:42:05 AM by FINate »

jim555

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2020, 10:54:36 AM »
I'm retired and have the option to move to the UK and it doesn't make economic sense even with free NHS.  With the ACA health costs are reasonable, plus I would rather be in the US health care system than the NHS, which has bad cancer survival rates.  They clip you on taxes.  20% VAT, $6.50 a gallon gas, inheritance taxes, higher income taxes.  Housing is expensive, rooms are very small, cars are undersized, plus the Brexit mess which is coming up.  It is even worse if you are in accumulation, salaries are much lower, and a general attitude that all social problem are solved by higher taxes as the first solution.  Hostile attitude towards enterprise and a left wing that are extreme left.

PDXTabs

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2020, 11:17:03 AM »
There is also this weird perception that the poor are helped and live generally dignified lives. To this I say: bwahahaha! The poor live in shit neighborhoods, have shit neighbors, and generally hobble through life just the same, rather shittily.

I am in the demographic where it is better for me to live in the USA. But I would remind you that people in the USA with no children get ~$0 of welfare per year. Additionally, there are still 14 US states where poor people do not have guaranteed access to health care. As a US/UK dual national, I know exactly where I would live if I were poor, and it isn't the USA. That isn't even counting access to higher education or gun violence which is remarkably better in the vast majority of Europe.
Well, unless you take a very narrow view of what constitutes welfare, the first part is simply not true. Plenty of anti-poverty programs have eligibility requirements that don't require having children. In the UK the universal credit is around £600, not exactly generous. And ironically enough, nearly all European countries rely to a much greater extent on VAT, so in practice US taxation is a lot more progressive.

But you are just proving my point. £600 and access to the NHS is infinitely better than any US state. Throw in affordable college in Scotland and you are way ahead without even making it into one of Social Democratic meccas of northern Europe.

Cranky

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2020, 11:29:54 AM »
I think that in the US teeth are a much stronger marker of social class than they are in the UK. Dental health overall may not be different, but middle class Americans are embarrassed by missing or crooked teeth much more than the British are, in my experience.

And the right wing seems to be making up for lost time in several European countries, so I’m dubious about moving there to avoid the mess here.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2020, 11:47:22 AM »
As an immigrant to the US, I find that I can totally assimilate in the US. Friends of mine who have migrated elsewhere in Europe and Australia, that is not the case. My friend in Germany has married a German and is still considered a foreigner.

The melting pot in the US is still very active and my kids are very American. They are considered by their peers as American, albeit a brown skinned American of Indian origin. Prime example is Kamala Harris, child of an Indian mother and Jamaican father who is the VP candidate from the Democratic party.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 12:06:32 PM by CowboyAndIndian »

seattlecyclone

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2020, 11:57:10 AM »
Finally, the "Europe has trains, so should we" thing drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I love trains. But the reason trains are so great in much of Europe is largely due to superb urban planning. Most EU cities/towns are dense and walkable, and there's much less urban sprawl than the US. This is an area were Europe (and most of the world) really does way better than the US. In other words, mass transit is a natural outgrowth of good urban planning, it's not a panacea for poor urban planning. Putting a light rail through your low density suburban city isn't going to make it feel more "European" nor will it be sustainable or generally useful beyond commuter rail for a small percentage of the population.

Oh yes. It's all about the density. The more people you have living in an area, the more people you can serve with the same amount of train track. The more people you have living near a train, the more people who are going to want to use it, which means they run the trains more frequently. The more frequent the train is, the more useful it is, and the more public support you have for improving that infrastructure. This applies just as well to a city as to a larger area such as a US state or European country. There's a reason Germany has a high-speed rail network and Wisconsin doesn't, and it's not purely political differences. Germany has a population density six times that of Wisconsin. That's six times as many people paying into the system and using it for their regional travel needs.

Sibley

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2020, 12:17:55 PM »
Finally, the "Europe has trains, so should we" thing drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I love trains. But the reason trains are so great in much of Europe is largely due to superb urban planning. Most EU cities/towns are dense and walkable, and there's much less urban sprawl than the US. This is an area were Europe (and most of the world) really does way better than the US. In other words, mass transit is a natural outgrowth of good urban planning, it's not a panacea for poor urban planning. Putting a light rail through your low density suburban city isn't going to make it feel more "European" nor will it be sustainable or generally useful beyond commuter rail for a small percentage of the population.

Oh yes. It's all about the density. The more people you have living in an area, the more people you can serve with the same amount of train track. The more people you have living near a train, the more people who are going to want to use it, which means they run the trains more frequently. The more frequent the train is, the more useful it is, and the more public support you have for improving that infrastructure. This applies just as well to a city as to a larger area such as a US state or European country. There's a reason Germany has a high-speed rail network and Wisconsin doesn't, and it's not purely political differences. Germany has a population density six times that of Wisconsin. That's six times as many people paying into the system and using it for their regional travel needs.

In certain US cities, public transit is good. Chicago is one where it is possible to live car free without difficulty. I understand New York City and San Francisco are the same. But even with the public transit, Chicago is choked with cars.

Metalcat

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2020, 12:26:01 PM »
Ha, guilty!  I've been considering posting a question about this and here's my opportunity.  Yes, if the election doesn't go our way my husband and I have talked about moving to a French city (not Paris).  I work for a French company and my boss has been trying to get me to do a one or two year ex-pat stint there for some time.  Strongly hinted that it would be good for my career.  I've been to this city many times and love it, but I've always stayed in a nice hotel in the nice part of town and expensed everything, which would not be the case if we moved there.

We are concerned that we don't speak the language, that we will be lost without a community, that as a gay male couple with a kid we will be seen very strangely, and that my husband (who probably wouldn't work while there) would be very isolated. 

I still think I'm up for it if we can deal with some logistics on our side - what to do with our house, personal items, and pets???  Finances would be okay - paid US salary plus housing / childcare stipend / car.  When talking with colleagues in my company that have done this, the thing they flag as most difficult is the experience of the non-working spouse and I'm really concerned about that.  Not sure how to address it other than look for ex-pat communities.  In an odd Covid twist, husband realized his work could be done remotely so there is a chance he'd work while there which would help (but then childcare?).

Any truth bombs you want to drop on me?

First rule for when you are going to live in another country is learning the local language. That makes it much easier to get in touch with local people. And you will be able to hear and read what is going on. Never mind that French people will never be impressed by your language efforts no matter how hard you try.

I've tried - took French 101 and 102 at local community college when I started the job and I'm reading Harry Potter in French (slow going).  I got to the point where I could handle small daily interactions - restaurants, stores, taxis, etc. - but deep interactions in French are still impossible.  Time-permitting, we'd take French lessons if we went over there.

I got a lot of mileage out of "je suis desole.  je ne parle pas Francais."  [I'm sorry.  I don't speak French.]

French is a beast, DH and I have studied it all our lives (grew up in Quebec), and we still can't keep up in a group of fast talking, colloquialism-using Francophones.

I'm actually better at following conversational Spanish than I am with French and I only studied Spanish for one year. French is truly a beast to obtain fluency.

I got to a point where I could very effectively function in French, and spent a few years treating Francophones who could speak absolutely no English, but I never ever got to a point where I could socialize, still can't, and likely never will.

iris lily

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2020, 01:24:23 PM »
French is a really difficult language I think. Spanish is easier. I studied both lightly.

I’ve always liked man made structures and western architecture, so that is why I like all of Europe. Off and on  over the years I fantasize about moving somewhere on the continent or to the UK, but it’s not a reality Even though we are retired and financially comfortable.It is a true statement when I say that a major reason I married DH  was because he had an aunt living in Scotland In a perfect cottage by the sea. He also had  tons of relatives living in Switzerland and nearby, but those countries are not as important to me, it was Scotland!

A few years ago when we were in Romania I compared prices of small acreages with historic homes in villages to  the similar property I have in mid Missouri. It is more expensive in Romania. That surprised me because Romania is  supposed to be pretty cheap, but it is Europe after all.

reeshau

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2020, 01:28:21 PM »
Very interesting way to approach this topic beyond a single "we want to move to X, how is it?" thread.

My own corner of Europe was Ireland.  (for what it's worth, my part of the US is "flyover country," mostly in the Midwest, but now SE Texas)  I have travelled, for business and pleasure, all over the continent, but we just finished 2 years there.  Like @FINate 's experience in Germany, I feel that while I know some parts of Ireland well, 2 years just scratched the surface.

Finally, I thought it was funny that there was a lot of graffiti and that my American sense was that this would identify a dangerous area, but it seemed not to correlate.

I think this quote is a great example of a general issue when imagining travel, and with actual travel:  you still look at it through your own lens.  Is healthcare in X great?  Well, it's available and cheap / free, so it must be.  Because, that's what's wrong with mine.  (not thinking that there are things that *are* right at home, or that could be screwed up)

I used to travel to Mexico for work as well, both along the Northern border, and in the interior.  The housing would be heartbreaking, again through my US "McMansion eyes."  But then I would see brand new Chevy Silverados parked outside.  And people would be very well dressed.  Yes, many people have much less that I do, but they also had different priorities, and a large house was not high on the list.  Be very careful about judgments of people or places, until you understand how *they* judge things--what they aspire to, and how they choose to live.

In certain US cities, public transit is good. Chicago is one where it is possible to live car free without difficulty. I understand New York City and San Francisco are the same. But even with the public transit, Chicago is choked with cars.

Dublin is actually very similar.  It's train system is great by US standards, although middling / lacking by European ones (no train from City Center to the airport)  A real estate study showed, though, that living within a mile of a train station added €150k to the price of a house.  You could run a modest car for a long time on that amount, even with expensive parking.  And of course, housing in the city center, with no train needed, is even more expensive relative to a suburban baseline.  So while trains are available and heavily utilized, and the city is fairly compact, the streets are jammed at rush hour and commute times of 1-2 hours are not at all uncommon as people look for affordable housing by going further out.  I eventually chose to generally walk to work, which only added 15 minutes from the train time.  I could never have done that in Detroit.

One other example to differentiate behavior and affordability:  we fuelled our Diesel Citroen MPV quarterly; this despite taking it on a number of road trips, since that is what we got it for.  (plus, the occasional emergency)  We refill our gasoline Buick SUV in Texas about every 2-3 weeks:  no commuting, just depends on where errands take us.  Both vehicles have about the same size tank.  We end up spending about the same on fuel in both scenarios.  Since the price of gasoline, even in the US, is so heavily dependent on tax, it's interesting that the balance points reached are economically similar.

Hula Hoop

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2020, 02:15:32 PM »
I'm an American living in Italy and THANK YOU for posting this.  I get so sick of wealthy Americans who maybe spent a semester of study abroad here or came here on vacation thinking that Europe (or Italy in particular) is heaven on earth and Italians are just so much more worldly and sophisticated than Americans etc etc.  Drives me NUTS. These people seriously need to meet people like my in-laws (working class and some of whom support the crazy racist right wing party here). Who do they think voted for Berlusconi?  Who watches that idiotic and incredibly sexist Italian TV and do they have any idea what Italian salaries are or or how much taxes we pay?  Why on earth to young educated Italians leave Italy in droves for places like Germany, the UK, Australia, the US and the Netherlands if life is so great here? But yeah - my life is just heavenly on my Italian salary (now supporting 4 people since my husband worked in tourism and he had to close his business due to Covid) and we spend our time drinking wine and eating nibbles while overlooking rolling Tuscan hills while our perfect children play amongst the olive trees.

That said, life can be pretty good here if you made your money somewhere else (like in the US) and you retired here. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 02:21:58 PM by Hula Hoop »

Imma

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2020, 02:28:20 PM »
Just one thing I wanted to correct you on: there are tons of FIRE bloggers in Europe. They just blog in their native languages and not in English, which is why they don't attract an international audience. But they are there. I don't read all European languages of course but I know of blogs from the Low Countries, the UK, Scandinavia and Germany.

I am also confident that FIRE on average is not harder to achieve in Europe than it is in the US. It's just different. Generally there are less options for pre-tax retirement savings, but state and company pensions are more secure and health care is often cheaper and people don't have 6 figures of student loans to pay off. I have a law degree too, I have no idea what a Porsche costs in here as I don't even drive, but I make about €45k and paid €2k a year in tuition. My student loan was less than €5k. I have a public service type job, in the commercial field I'd earn a lot more but I wouldn't work 36 hours a week + 2 weeks off over Christmas. I think eventually I could go up to €60-70k and that's an insane amount of money. I am pretty happy with this situation and would never trade this for a pressure cooker job in London or NYC for a 6 figure income.

And with the smaller distances, geoarbitrage is easier. I know people who have retired to rural Germany, Czech Republic, France, Italy and Hungary to live a Frugalwoods - type life in a LCOL area while remaining formally a resident of the Netherlands to get access to high quality of healthcare. FIRE'ing abroad was our plan too but we'll have to see how Brexit works out. Plenty of people also do it the other way round and move 5 km across the border with Belgium to take advantage of lower taxes there. Back when savings accounts still had interest, a lot of people opened savings accounts in other countries that offered a higher interest %. I personally got my mortgage from a foreign bank, simply because they offered me the best deal. That kind of stuff is pretty easy to arrange within the EU.

I also do believe that many Europeans feel "European". They may have stronger feelings for their own country, or the general area of Europe they come from (Scandinavia, UK, Low Countries) but especially among the urban, highly educated Milennials that I'm a part of, a common European identity is forming. A lot of students spend some time abroad during college, through summer schools, internship or through the Erasmus exchange program. This helps them feel very "European". Even though there are a lot of differences between the different European countries, put a couple of Chinese students, a couple of Americans, a Dutch person, a Finn and an Italian in a classroom and suddenly it's very clear what we Europeans have in common.

former player

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2020, 02:52:16 PM »
I'm retired and have the option to move to the UK and it doesn't make economic sense even with free NHS.  With the ACA health costs are reasonable, plus I would rather be in the US health care system than the NHS, which has bad cancer survival rates.  They clip you on taxes.  20% VAT, $6.50 a gallon gas, inheritance taxes, higher income taxes.  Housing is expensive, rooms are very small, cars are undersized, plus the Brexit mess which is coming up.  It is even worse if you are in accumulation, salaries are much lower, and a general attitude that all social problem are solved by higher taxes as the first solution.  Hostile attitude towards enterprise and a left wing that are extreme left.

I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

Also, tax revenue in the USA is 24% of GDP as opposed to 34% in the UK.  But for that we get almost all our healthcare included, which you don't: health care costs in the USA add another 18% to that 24%.  Starting to look a bit better for the UK, right?  I do agree our cancer 5 year survival rates are mostly lower than yours but not all: we are better on eg cervical cancer and childhood leukemia, and improving more rapidly than the USA on some others.  (Also, I don't know why we still use 5 years as the "survival" test: I certainly don't think my friend whose breast cancer came back after 10 years as having survived it.)





Paul der Krake

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2020, 03:29:54 PM »
I am also confident that FIRE on average is not harder to achieve in Europe than it is in the US. It's just different. Generally there are less options for pre-tax retirement savings, but state and company pensions are more secure and health care is often cheaper and people don't have 6 figures of student loans to pay off. I have a law degree too, I have no idea what a Porsche costs in here as I don't even drive, but I make about €45k and paid €2k a year in tuition. My student loan was less than €5k. I have a public service type job, in the commercial field I'd earn a lot more but I wouldn't work 36 hours a week + 2 weeks off over Christmas. I think eventually I could go up to €60-70k and that's an insane amount of money. I am pretty happy with this situation and would never trade this for a pressure cooker job in London or NYC for a 6 figure income.
You're missing the forest for the trees here. If you have the option of, say, earn 80k and have 100k of student debt, or earn 50k and have 0 debt, there is a very, very clear mathematical winner. Even over a reduced-length career. Over the years I have spoken with a lot of expats and dual citizens and literally everybody agrees that as a white collar professional you'll have a much easier time amassing wealth in the US. Where you retire is a different question altogether, and I certainly think the balance can shift heavily towards more redistributives states.

Back when savings accounts still had interest, a lot of people opened savings accounts in other countries that offered a higher interest %. I personally got my mortgage from a foreign bank, simply because they offered me the best deal. That kind of stuff is pretty easy to arrange within the EU.
Yes! Running a single currency across so many different economies might be a terrible idea, but for consumers the Eurozone has done true wonders.

I also do believe that many Europeans feel "European". They may have stronger feelings for their own country, or the general area of Europe they come from (Scandinavia, UK, Low Countries) but especially among the urban, highly educated Milennials that I'm a part of, a common European identity is forming. A lot of students spend some time abroad during college, through summer schools, internship or through the Erasmus exchange program. This helps them feel very "European". Even though there are a lot of differences between the different European countries, put a couple of Chinese students, a couple of Americans, a Dutch person, a Finn and an Italian in a classroom and suddenly it's very clear what we Europeans have in common.
Smaller states like the Netherlands have always more open to outsiders. That is less the case of the more populous states. But I agree that there is a welcome resurgence in a shared identity, partly driven by the Brexit shitshow, partly driven by the realization that the continent is about to be squeezed between China and the US. Transnational marriages have been on the rise for decades. The EU has never been more popular than it is now, especially among the educated, even if most citizens are incapable of naming the politicians who run the show at the EU level.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 03:31:41 PM by Paul der Krake »

Imma

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2020, 04:03:10 PM »
I'm actually not sure if the Netherlands is that open to outsiders. The urban areas are full of international expats and highly educated Europeans and no one minds because they're rich. And we've accepted we need poor eastern Europeans to do the shit jobs but we'd rather not see them. But I think the topic of immigration is regarded the same in rural France as it is in rural Netherlands.

I think the growing rural/urban gap is one of the biggest issues in both the EU and the US. The coastal elite and the average inhabitant of Stockholm, Amsterdam or Berlin have way more in common with each other than with the rural inhabitants of their own country. We just have all those different Parliaments that all have their own Trumps. And they all try to work together but they don't fully trust each other, while the urban pro-EU elites manage to cooperate just fine.

I agree that mathematically, it's probably true that white collar professionals amass wealth more quickly in the US, but for many people quality of life is also very important. I only know of one European who has succesfully adapted to the Silicon Valley work ethic and more than a dozen who quickly burnt out in London or NYC. I know a few American couples that moved to the Netherlands specifically for quality of life. For them it's been great but sweet expat deals help a lot. They're making way more than a local would.

cerat0n1a

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2020, 04:32:58 PM »
I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

A few times in the past, I was offered a substantial raise to do the same job in the US. One of my wife's reasons for not moving was that "you'd have to drive one of those ridiculous tanks that does about ten miles to the gallon". It's all a matter of perspective ;-)

FINate

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2020, 05:20:56 PM »
I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

A few times in the past, I was offered a substantial raise to do the same job in the US. One of my wife's reasons for not moving was that "you'd have to drive one of those ridiculous tanks that does about ten miles to the gallon". It's all a matter of perspective ;-)

What?! The average fuel economy for the entire US car fleet (2017) is about 25 MPG. Of course, it's pretty easy to do much better than average, like mid-30s or better. And of course, you can also get much smaller cars if that's what you want. No one is forced to buy a tank, LOL :)


PDXTabs

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2020, 07:43:14 PM »
Finally, the "Europe has trains, so should we" thing drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I love trains. But the reason trains are so great in much of Europe is largely due to superb urban planning. Most EU cities/towns are dense and walkable, and there's much less urban sprawl than the US. This is an area were Europe (and most of the world) really does way better than the US. In other words, mass transit is a natural outgrowth of good urban planning, it's not a panacea for poor urban planning. Putting a light rail through your low density suburban city isn't going to make it feel more "European" nor will it be sustainable or generally useful beyond commuter rail for a small percentage of the population.

Fine then, how about "Europe has good urban planning?"

But even that isn't really an excuse. Look a Portland OR USA, Salem OR USA, Edinburgh Scotland, and Glasgow Scotland. Then look at the train timetables. Then tell me why rail services is total shit in the USA but not the UK. Meanwhile, UK rail service is generally regarded as sub-standard by many from the continent.

Carl500

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2020, 07:48:53 PM »
Australian lawyer graduate salary (top tier, 99th percentile) - $85k (US $60k)
American lawyer graduate salary (BigLaw) - $160k

Australian lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - $250k (US $170k)
American lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - no idea but it would be a lot higher!!

First year American grads from top colleges (Harvard etc) get paid $190k here in NYC (source: NYC Rental real estate agent who reviews peoples financial documents when they apply for apartments.)

brooklynmoney

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2020, 08:35:05 PM »
I suppose these factors apply if you are going to live somewhere full time and a still building your stache and working. I plan to get a golden visa hopefully in Spain where I speak the language well enough and would not necessarily live there full time. I also have no intention of working there or buying a car or educating myself or anyone else or collecting any kind of benefits except maybe healthcare but most likely would pay for private. I think under these circumstances it would be relatively easy to spend a lot time in another country. Biggest concern is tax law.

FINate

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2020, 08:40:41 PM »
Fine then, how about "Europe has good urban planning?"

But even that isn't really an excuse. Look a Portland OR USA, Salem OR USA, Edinburgh Scotland, and Glasgow Scotland. Then look at the train timetables. Then tell me why rail services is total shit in the USA but not the UK. Meanwhile, UK rail service is generally regarded as sub-standard by many from the continent.

Good urban planning is necessary, yet not sufficient on its own for mass transit. I haven't followed the situation in Portland, but if it has good urban planning with poor mass transit this usually means poor governance and/or insufficient taxation. Mass transit, like autos, requires substantial subsidies, which means higher taxes and, especially, a broader tax base. But Americans don't like to pay taxes, we only want other people to pay taxes.

LWYRUP

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2020, 09:37:48 PM »
Australian lawyer graduate salary (top tier, 99th percentile) - $85k (US $60k)
American lawyer graduate salary (BigLaw) - $160k

Australian lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - $250k (US $170k)
American lawyer 10 year experience salary (95th percentile) - no idea but it would be a lot higher!!

First year American grads from top colleges (Harvard etc) get paid $190k here in NYC (source: NYC Rental real estate agent who reviews peoples financial documents when they apply for apartments.)

Yes this is true.  A few factors though:

Lots of people have lots of debt.  It is very hard to get those jobs.  They are extremely unpleasant.  Most people (easily like 75%, that's probably being conservative) are gone in 5 years.  It's probably more like the half-life is every two years and then 10 years later you've gone from 200 to 10 people then like a handful of them get the nod for partner.  Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of people leave by choice, for a substantial paycut.  All is not lost though, the training and connections are useful.

An inhouse counsel in a big city with big firm training who say does a few years of the firm then a few years inhouse can get. I don't know like $150 - 250k?  It's all dependent on the industry and market, etc.  It's a pretty good salary but it's hard road to get there. 

Of course some make a killing but it can be a quite unpleasant process to get there.  Not clear it's worth it in terms of the QOL tradeoff.  You can FIRE off $150 - 250k so not clear to me if there's material advantages to try to grind it out for partner.  If you like money that bad, you'd blush with the salaries you can get with the right degree and connections in finance.

(Former biglaw.)

ender

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2020, 10:07:18 PM »
RE nut-jobs and deplorables: Yes, they absolutely exist in Europe. But due to the aforementioned economic stratification, most Americans don't encounter them. The big tourist destinations in the EU are where affluence and status converge, usually in the urban core. Look to outer rings of the suburbs and working-class rural towns. Anyone here following Mouvement des gilets jaunes? Americans don't travel to these areas because, well, they aren't very nice/interesting, which is why they aren't tourist destinations. Also, the Europeans that tour the US are almost always affluent with advanced degrees. Where do the other half vacation? Head to the budget resorts in lesser traveled areas of the Mediterranean during the month of August and you'll see. Contrast this with new-money Americans traveling in EU: zero cultural sensitivity, demanding everyone speak English, talking louder and louder if they aren't understood...so embarrassing. All this to say, there's an awful lot of selection bias.

This is really true.

I have lived in Germany for... 2 years or so? and it's definitely my experience. I actually really enjoyed the time living there because I lived in a "boring" city which was not a tourist one and I feel like I got a completely different experience than folks I knew living in more touristy areas.

I distinctly remember this when I visited Prague as I did the normal touristy stuff but then also went to an air museum there - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kbely_Aviation_Museum - it was really cool but was such a stark difference when being out there as compared to the main city center area. It's way off in the suburbs of the city and is... so different.

PDXTabs

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2020, 10:42:14 PM »
Fine then, how about "Europe has good urban planning?"

But even that isn't really an excuse. Look a Portland OR USA, Salem OR USA, Edinburgh Scotland, and Glasgow Scotland. Then look at the train timetables. Then tell me why rail services is total shit in the USA but not the UK. Meanwhile, UK rail service is generally regarded as sub-standard by many from the continent.

Good urban planning is necessary, yet not sufficient on its own for mass transit. I haven't followed the situation in Portland, but if it has good urban planning with poor mass transit this usually means poor governance and/or insufficient taxation. Mass transit, like autos, requires substantial subsidies, which means higher taxes and, especially, a broader tax base. But Americans don't like to pay taxes, we only want other people to pay taxes.

Portland has some of the best urban planning in the USA and is probably on-par with large swaths of the UK. But that doesn't matter because it isn't Portland's job to link itself with neighboring cities via regional rail. Or at least, to the best of my knowledge, Edinburgh and Glasgow are not footing the bill for the rail service between them and neither are Portland or Salem.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 10:44:27 PM by PDXTabs »

norajean

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2020, 11:08:00 PM »
We have lived in Europe and a few other continents. We have no burning desire to live other than in the US, regardless of which of the two morons is running amok in January. All things considered, America works the best for us in terms of cost, culture, language, logistics, diversity, etc.

People who threaten to move if they don’t get their political way almost never do. Most won’t even move out of a city or state they hate, much less to another country, rife with issues of its own.

blurkraken22

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2020, 11:20:14 PM »
First rule for when you are going to live in another country is learning the local language. That makes it much easier to get in touch with local people. And you will be able to hear and read what is going on. Never mind that French people will never be impressed by your language efforts no matter how hard you try.

Yes to learning to local language. My experience was that French people have a strong appreciation for people trying to speak their language. My number one differentiator for people who learn to speak the local language versus those who do not is: what language are your friends speaking? I know some Europeans in France whose French never seems to improve. Oh wait, the moment they leave work they only speak their native language. You learn a language by speaking it. Put yourself in situations where you must speak the language outside of work and it will come along just fine. I promise.

I agree that mathematically, it's probably true that white collar professionals amass wealth more quickly in the US, but for many people quality of life is also very important. I only know of one European who has succesfully adapted to the Silicon Valley work ethic and more than a dozen who quickly burnt out in London or NYC. I know a few American couples that moved to the Netherlands specifically for quality of life. For them it's been great but sweet expat deals help a lot. They're making way more than a local would.

You beat me to the topic of quality of life. In Paris, I earned 0.60 EUR per USD of my American salary (no expat package for me). Then OMG, the takehome pay versus gross? Shave 24% off the top! Then we still have to file taxes after that? Another 5-10%! There's a real-estate tax too. Roughly 1 month rent. It's shocking. Yet, despite all this, we made good progress in our retirement savings. In fact, we were extremely frugal by local standards. Less restaurants and more picnics at the park. Less cafe, biere, and cocktails on the terrace. Generally less travel than my local colleagues. Was it the fastest possible way to run a mad dash to retirement? No, but that's one of the most important things I learned living in France: life should not be a mad dash. Not to finish dinner (or the wine, or the cheese, or the dessert), not to get to the other side of town, and not to earn more money. So, for me, I can say yes to lower salary, excellent quality of life, lots of paid leave (~35 days).

A lot of what we do in the FIRE community is learning to set our own standards instead of just accepting and going along with what our peers do. IMO, working in another country will raise your game to new levels in that department, but probably only if you'll be working and interacting with locals. The educational experience is likely to be worth the costs in terms of slower wealth accumulation. Go live somewhere else, try to integrate with the locals, you'll learn things about the world and about yourself. Just do it. If Trump makes you want to do it, that's a great reason too. If you come back to America, it will probably be with a whole new appreciation of what's great here.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2020, 12:32:37 AM »
I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

A few times in the past, I was offered a substantial raise to do the same job in the US. One of my wife's reasons for not moving was that "you'd have to drive one of those ridiculous tanks that does about ten miles to the gallon". It's all a matter of perspective ;-)

What?! The average fuel economy for the entire US car fleet (2017) is about 25 MPG. Of course, it's pretty easy to do much better than average, like mid-30s or better. And of course, you can also get much smaller cars if that's what you want. No one is forced to buy a tank, LOL :)

I think of 40 MPG as baseline acceptable MPG and 50 as good in the UK. I'd be looking for 55 or 60 in a new car.

Paul der Krake

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2020, 12:51:01 AM »
I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

A few times in the past, I was offered a substantial raise to do the same job in the US. One of my wife's reasons for not moving was that "you'd have to drive one of those ridiculous tanks that does about ten miles to the gallon". It's all a matter of perspective ;-)

What?! The average fuel economy for the entire US car fleet (2017) is about 25 MPG. Of course, it's pretty easy to do much better than average, like mid-30s or better. And of course, you can also get much smaller cars if that's what you want. No one is forced to buy a tank, LOL :)

I think of 40 MPG as baseline acceptable MPG and 50 as good in the UK. I'd be looking for 55 or 60 in a new car.
For everyone who is confused by this exchange: imperial gallons used in Canada and the UK are larger than US gallons.

The ratio between the two is 1.2 and some change, so 40 MPG in the UK is around 33 MPG in the US, 50 is around 41, etc.

I will add this: if fuel prices are a significant reason for you to prefer living somewhere, you are probably doing something reaaaally wrong and should reevaluate the series of choices that brought you to that point.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 12:55:13 AM by Paul der Krake »

cerat0n1a

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2020, 01:10:04 AM »
I'd agree with some of this, but "cars are undersized"?  Not in relation to the size of our roads, they're not.  You have to take into account our different geography.  There's a reason America doesn't sell many cars in the UK and it's not tariffs.

A few times in the past, I was offered a substantial raise to do the same job in the US. One of my wife's reasons for not moving was that "you'd have to drive one of those ridiculous tanks that does about ten miles to the gallon". It's all a matter of perspective ;-)

What?! The average fuel economy for the entire US car fleet (2017) is about 25 MPG. Of course, it's pretty easy to do much better than average, like mid-30s or better. And of course, you can also get much smaller cars if that's what you want. No one is forced to buy a tank, LOL :)

Indeed. Many other beliefs commonly held here about life in America are also not true - it's not actually mandatory to become obese, to own guns, to attend church, get weird political beliefs or whatever.

I know 30+ people (very common in my industry) who've emigrated from the UK to the US. Some of them didn't like it, made their money and came home, others loved it and stayed. I know numerous people (friends and family) who've emigrated to Australia, New Zealand or Canada and a few who've moved elsewhere in Europe. The fact that I know so many emigrants perhaps tells its own story. Britain has around 20% of its population born abroad (we have more immigration than the US), but it also has more than 10% of its citizens living abroad, and that's not counting those who've changed nationality.

I've spent about a year in the US, about a year in France and about 9 months in Australia. I'd put the US a clear last for me of those three countries as a place I'd want to live. If I wanted to make money fast though, it would be top of the list. When I was a kid, lots of people dreamed of moving to America. I don't hear anyone saying that today. There are plenty of smart, interesting posters on this site who show that the US can be a great place to live though.

Paul's original post is full of good observations. The grass is always greener.

daverobev

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2020, 01:40:11 AM »
It's all well and good to talk about "if you're earning $150k then...", but of course it's all about your own personal circumstances. If you're not, only earning say $50k, the difference is going to be a lot less - and of course totally dependent on where you live.

It's absolutely true that there are some countries which are good for saving and investing. Moving often messes up tax shelters though, unfortunately.

You can live cheaply in many countries. Also to remember - there are (state) pension agreements between many countries, so even if you're earning less after tax and whatnot, you may well be building up a decent, transferable pension for when you're Really Old. Example - the Netherlands is a residency-based rather than contribution-based state pension system. Example - Canada and France have an agreement, whereby years resident in one counts as years towards qualifying (though not increasing the *amount*) in the other.

I mean, the point of the thread is basically "the grass is always greener", right? And it's true, to a degree. I just could not stand the winters in Canada after living there nearly a decade.

I think you just need to work out your basic top desired features, and go from there. See if you can get what you're looking for somewhat locally first.

Realise that yeah each country has regions with vastly different cultures - and likely each state/province/region does too.

But, if you want convenience - the US, Canada, UK will beat France every time. If you want fresh baguettes, croissants, two hour lunch breaks... and a whole load of other things.

I don't know, I'm an introvert, so I'm not fussed about "integrating". I can, just about, make myself understood and understand back (here in France, that is!). I haven't had issues with people not being pleasant, but then we're in a part of France where there are a lot of Brits bringing in money which the locals apppreciate.

Some stuff's expensive, some stuff's cheap. I'd kill for a decent British supermarket, and what with lockdown I haven't been to the UK to stock up for months... and god knows post Brexit. But generally, life's good here. It's all a compromise. Is the grass greener? For me, than Canada, yes because of the climate. In ten years, who knows, maybe we'll go back across the pond.

Panly

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 02:06:27 AM »
Life's full of trade-offs, you know.

and threads like these never get beyond the clichés and prejudices they try to overcome. Ironically.


The elephant in the room has so far been ignored:  by far most Americans won't be able to get a residence permit anyway.   
Only those with access to an EU passport, and even then,  they'd get difficulties in obtaining a residence permit in any other EU country without any formal job.


On the other hand, there are some EU countries trying to attract wealthy foreigners,  so if you're serious, you might try Cyprus.  English is an official language, and if you buy a nice property with a residence permit.  The climate (both weather and taxation)  is pretty attractive as well.


     




 

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 03:06:33 AM »
I will add this: if fuel prices are a significant reason for you to prefer living somewhere, you are probably doing something reaaaally wrong and should reevaluate the series of choices that brought you to that point.

I assume people are discussing car size, car dominance and fuel prices as a proxy for the typical walkability/cycleability of a city which can have a huge impact on how I experience a city. Agreed that fuel prices in themselves are not a major factor!

Paul der Krake

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Re: So you want to move to Europe: a reality check
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 03:14:37 AM »
Life's full of trade-offs, you know.

and threads like these never get beyond the clichés and prejudices they try to overcome. Ironically.
Yep, in a thread that's essentially a warning about generalizations, we end up generalizing some so we don't have to use caveats in every sentence. The irony is not lost on me.

The elephant in the room has so far been ignored:  by far most Americans won't be able to get a residence permit anyway.   
Who said anything about most Americans? This is a forum chock full of dangerous professionals who are significantly above average in every metric that matters to score a visa or a job offer abroad.

Only those with access to an EU passport, and even then,  they'd get difficulties in obtaining a residence permit in any other EU country without any formal job.
What difficulties for EU citizens do you anticipate? That's the whole point of freedom of movement, the registration is a mere formality. Just call yourself self-employed if you really have to, the permits are valid into perpetuity.