Author Topic: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing  (Read 3298 times)

foghorn

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Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« on: December 25, 2020, 02:34:39 PM »
A bit of a vent.  Curious if any of you feel the same way.

Like many of you, I like to read personal finance articles.  I hope to learn something or maybe employ a strategy that that is working for someone.  Most of my learnings come from this site - but I do read published articles.

What often frustrates me is the sloppy writing done by the authors of these articles and the lack of editorial review by the publisher.  The two examples of this that bother me most are:

1.)  The use of the word "Income".  For those of us still working, there is a big difference between GROSS Income and NET Income.  Yet, in articles the word Income is often used with no explanation of what the author means.  Depending on how a reader chooses to interpret the use of this word, the advice could be way off, or even dangerous to decision making.  I wish the authors would be clear which of these (Gross or Net) they mean when writing.

2.)  Millionaires.  This word often gets used to describe people who MAKE a million dollars and those who HAVE a million dollars.  All of us here certainly know the difference and would only consider someone who has a million dollars to be considered a Millionaire.  Heck, I have even read articles where the author will go back and forth in the same article using this word for both definitions (conflating the two) - seeming to not understand the difference.

Any other examples of poor writing that make it frustrating to read some personal finance articles?

Rant over.


Morning Glory

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2020, 02:50:15 PM »
I don't really read them any more. I sort of reached a saturation point where none of the information is new. I did do a "retirement readiness" quiz that was sponsored by the life insurance company that my employer uses, and unsurprisingly it told me to buy more life insurance.

Zikoris

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2020, 03:22:22 PM »
Vagueness around numbers (and other things) pisses me off, which is why I make sure to be really specific when I write about personal finance. People are like "And then I started cooking at home and saved so much money!". That is NOT useful to anyone. What were you spending before versus after, how many people is that feeding, and is there any hidden stuff pushing the numbers down, like free food from work, or someone subsidizing your food in other ways? Where did you shop, what did you buy, what did you make? Real information that a person can do something with is what is actually useful to people learning about financial topics, not vague bullshit.

Also, people presenting themselves as middle class when they're in the top single-digit percent of income earners is dumb as fuck as well.

Metalcat

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2020, 05:14:25 PM »
I find most articles painfully sloppy.

partgypsy

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2020, 05:27:08 PM »
Blogs or articles that say for example "save 10% of your income" but not define what is they mean by income is a big pet peeve of mine. I guess another frustration is while mmm has a pretty clear definition (having enough stash to at 4% throw off enough income to cover your expenses) some articles including by orman, define ability to retire so strictly, seems everyone would fail and why even try? There are alot of financial articles out there that are not worth the paper they are written on, so to speak.

Just Joe

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2020, 06:17:21 PM »
Its easier to write vague articles than it is to get specific. Could specifics lead to a liability situation where someone applies the advice wrongly?

Weight loss stories can be similar. Person who lost much weight did so by "eating better" and exercising. However the reader may be so new to concept that they don't know what "eating better" really means.

marty998

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2020, 09:48:01 PM »
Also, people presenting themselves as middle class when they're in the top single-digit percent of income earners is dumb as fuck as well.

It's the "We make $200k a year but we're not rich" attitude.

It's the same as the attitude that says the government "penalises" people for earning more by taxing more or withdrawing benefits.

Everyone thinks socialism is evil until the government hands them free cash :)

Zamboni

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2020, 10:06:15 PM »
I don't really read them any more. I sort of reached a saturation point where none of the information is new. I did do a "retirement readiness" quiz that was sponsored by the life insurance company that my employer uses, and unsurprisingly it told me to buy more life insurance.

Lol, that's hilarious.

Syonyk

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2020, 11:51:34 PM »
I guess it doesn't bother me terribly, though I don't read much in the way of finance articles anymore.  Only so many ways to rehash the same information in "new, fresh, hip, relevant" ways, when the fundamentals simply haven't changed.  And you see that on the MMM front page, he's covered the details from just about every cross sectional way you can slice them.

Earn more.  Spend less.  Think about how you spend.  Save.  Invest.  Do crap for yourself.  Don't spend obscene amounts of money on things "just because it's done."  Don't buy a new luxury car to consume a raise.  Etc.  You can write on it, but it runs out of room in a pretty good hurry.

And I'll argue that specifics are both not useful, and probably harmful.  Anyone who claims to be telling you the exact future, especially on financial matters, is not to be trusted.  General trends?  Useful paths?  Certainly, those are helpful.  But "If you do X, Y, and Z, then A, B, and C will be guaranteed in the future!" is far, far too strong a claim to make, IMO.

I've written things delving into the financial realm (thinking about what defines "enough," repair of computers/phones/tech, etc), but I don't get terribly specific for a few reasons:

- What works for me isn't guaranteed to work for anyone else, and unless you live really close to me, shop the same way, etc, my numbers won't be your numbers.  The concepts may very well apply, but the details will differ, and if you can't work out the details for your situation from generals, well... m'kay, not really my problem.
- I don't care to be that specific, because our income details are between me, my wife, and the IRS.  Nothing good comes of posting exactly financial details on the internet, as far as I'm concerned.
- I'm not going to hold someone's hand on their finances unless they specifically ask.

1.)  The use of the word "Income".  For those of us still working, there is a big difference between GROSS Income and NET Income.  Yet, in articles the word Income is often used with no explanation of what the author means.  Depending on how a reader chooses to interpret the use of this word, the advice could be way off, or even dangerous to decision making.  I wish the authors would be clear which of these (Gross or Net) they mean when writing.

What sort of things does the difference matter for?  I can't come up with any general financial concepts off the top of my head where even a 20-30% difference between "net" and "gross" really matters, given where one should aim to be in terms of "spend X percentage of your income on this..." sort of things.  I'll put this in the case of "If you're making early decisions in the transition from consumer sukka to FIRE wizard," it doesn't matter, and if you're later on that path, you can do the math yourself to decide which is the right one.  Higher income, lower income, W-2, 1099, area cost of living... all of this needs to be factored into a lot, so someone else's exact details won't match for you.

Quote
2.)  Millionaires.  This word often gets used to describe people who MAKE a million dollars and those who HAVE a million dollars.  All of us here certainly know the difference and would only consider someone who has a million dollars to be considered a Millionaire.  Heck, I have even read articles where the author will go back and forth in the same article using this word for both definitions (conflating the two) - seeming to not understand the difference.

That one, yeah.  That's just sloppy.

I did do a "retirement readiness" quiz that was sponsored by the life insurance company that my employer uses, and unsurprisingly it told me to buy more life insurance.

Amazing!  I've done some "retirement financial path" quizzes by companies interested in selling me "financial management services," and their conclusion was that, at a minimum, I'll need about 2x my current salary in retirement (we won't discuss the difference between what we actually spend and their calculations), and, well, gosh, they'd be just so happy to help advise me to get there, if I'd only pay their tiny little montly management fees and a itsy bitsy percentage of gains.  How could I lose?

But they don't have a nearly full picture of our current financial state, so I just ignore that sort of stuff and keep on doing that which has been working for us.

I'll suggest that the vast majority of people on this forum, after some time thinking through things, would be better financial advisors than a lot of the "professionals," based on conversations I've had with some of them.  The concept of "Spending radically less than you make and trying to design your life so that you don't need a ton of money to do that which you enjoy doing" is utterly foreign to people who are more interested in selling you dreams of luxury cars and golf in retirement, which, conveniently, means more money for them to "manage" and "charge management fees on."

For sport, try explaining the basics of FIRE to the next professional financial advisor you come across, and see what they say.  They'll be baffled and have nothing of value to add.

Vagueness around numbers (and other things) pisses me off, which is why I make sure to be really specific when I write about personal finance. People are like "And then I started cooking at home and saved so much money!". That is NOT useful to anyone. What were you spending before versus after, how many people is that feeding, and is there any hidden stuff pushing the numbers down, like free food from work, or someone subsidizing your food in other ways? Where did you shop, what did you buy, what did you make? Real information that a person can do something with is what is actually useful to people learning about financial topics, not vague bullshit.

How do someone else's numbers really help you beyond "What they've done and how they're doing it"?

It's the "We make $200k a year but we're not rich" attitude.

I've known people making twice that who weren't rich, because they spent every penny that came in and then some.  High income, certainly, but rich?  That's really up to the person involved.  Though, yes, I do recognize that a lot of "personal finance bloggers" have a lot of resouces to throw at optimizing certain problems.

rmorris50

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2020, 04:34:21 AM »
The focus on a safe withdrawal rate, and various definitions of NW bug me. Terrible substitutes for doing an actual projection of household net cash flows.


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ender

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2020, 04:40:36 AM »
I gave an hour long presentation at a work community meetup about this topic this year because of this.

One of the articles was so well written but completely sloppy from an actual personal finance perspective.

Everyone's an expert online, it seems. Even the non experts.

PMG

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2020, 04:48:06 AM »
Using the word “invest” incorrectly. It bugs me when mainstream people do it but it really grates when someone in PF does it. No, you didn’t invest in a new gadget, you bought a new gadget that you hope will last a long time and bring value to your life.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2020, 07:33:26 AM »
Also, people presenting themselves as middle class when they're in the top single-digit percent of income earners is dumb as fuck as well.

Whenever I catch myself thinking like that ^^^ I punch my numbers into an income/NW % calculator for Canada to reset my perspective.

We do the "stealth wealth" thing pretty well so it's easy to start to think about ourselves like our apparent "peers" even though financially we've got nothing in common.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2020, 07:51:15 AM »
A bit of a vent.  Curious if any of you feel the same way.

I consumed a lot of personal finance stuff back in 2014-16. I didn't really know all the ins and outs so these sorts of ambiguities/errors weren't as apparent to me. I was still amazed at the power of the new information and the possibilities it held for me. By the time I knew enough to be more critical of this sort of writing I didn't read it very often and then usually articles by professionals that were of better quality.

I've done a lot of online writing over the last 10 years on topics unrelated to personal finance. Having been subject to criticism of various sorts myself I try to temper my own feelings about someone else's writing based on a reasonable expectation from a source like that. I have a higher expectation for technical accuracy from an economics professor or a finance professional than I would from some guy blogging from his kitchen. Of the guys blogging from their kitchen I have a higher expectation from someone like MMM than a guy/gal with 1000 followers recounting their per FI journey in the little bits of free time they have between family and their FT job.

It doesn't take me very long to figure out when a source of information isn't going to add any value to my life and I just stop reading vs. spending my time getting annoyed. For example...whenever personal finance bloggers start giving medical related advice I stop reading. If I kept reading and got really annoyed whose fault is that? The blogger for pontificating in an area they are not well versed in or me for consuming that material from them repeatedly when I know they are not a good source?

I also try and remember that I have paid a grand total of $0 to gain a life changing arsenal of personal finance related information. So I'm prepared to be somewhat generous to the people that took the time to generate it and put it out there for me to read.

scottish

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2020, 08:00:07 AM »
It's often the same problem with technical articles for the layperson.    In order to explain the subject matter, the writer dumbs down the material to the point where it has glaring factual errors or omissions.   Or the author just doesn't understand the topic well enough to be writing about it.     

It makes me think about the accuracy of the mainstream news as well.    Just compare Fox with the Washington Post for example and you'll find the same event with very different interpretations.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2020, 08:09:51 AM »
It makes me think about the accuracy of the mainstream news as well.

I've been involved with 3 or 4 things that made it to the evening news. The information reported vs. what I knew to be true and what I knew the reporter was told was shockingly different. I don't think it was intentional or the reporter didn't care. I just think the system they work has such rapid turn around that their ability to report accurately is low. I don't consume much mainstream news, but when I do I assume that only the broadest strokes of what is reported is accurate and if any of the detail matter to me I go looking for better sources.

OTOH you can get some really good pieces of investigative journalism, but those reporters worked on one story or set of stories for months and became an expert. They are also the top tier of journalist because a news organization isn't investing that sort of time in a reporter that can't reliably knock it out of the park.

ender

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2020, 08:27:10 AM »
Using the word “invest” incorrectly. It bugs me when mainstream people do it but it really grates when someone in PF does it. No, you didn’t invest in a new gadget, you bought a new gadget that you hope will last a long time and bring value to your life.

Hah, this reminds me of some of my biggest pet peeves in personal finance sloppy writing.

Not getting tax withholding vs taxes paid right (FFS, turbotax even has this wrong on one their article about bonuses).

Another is calling compound growth compound interest. When you get 10% market returns year/year, it's almost never compound interest. It's compound growth.

I've been involved with 3 or 4 things that made it to the evening news. The information reported vs. what I knew to be true and what I knew the reporter was told was shockingly different. I don't think it was intentional or the reporter didn't care. I just think the system they work has such rapid turn around that their ability to report accurately is low. I don't consume much mainstream news, but when I do I assume that only the broadest strokes of what is reported is accurate and if any of the detail matter to me I go looking for better sources.

I was interviewed once and literally wrote down a quote to give them.

It was modified in the publication.

:explody-head:
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 08:30:28 AM by ender »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2020, 08:29:05 AM »


2.)  Millionaires.  This word often gets used to describe people who MAKE a million dollars and those who HAVE a million dollars. 


#2 annoys me as well particularly because I majored in finance when I earned my BS in  business administration.

Specificity of numbers and their alphabetic form are the correct language of  all finance.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 08:36:57 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

mathlete

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2020, 08:43:37 AM »
The compounding thing bothers me more than it should. Interest compounds. Dividends compound.

But equity appreciation does not compound. We retroactively compute CAGR for stocks because it’s useful to compare to other investments, but stock appreciation is not compounding. I bought Super Mario Bros for the NES in 2005 for 25 cents. This was before everyone decided they cared about old video games. Today, I could sell it for six bucks.

I would never say that my copy of SMB compounded at 23.5% for 15 years. I still only have the one cartridge. It didn’t spawn 23 other copies of itself. People are just willing to pay 24x what they would have in 2005, and if I were to sell it, my return would be comparable to a savings account with 23.5% interest which compounded annually.

It seems nitpicky, but I actually think the distinction matters. If you sell people on investing by espousing “the miracle of compound growth”, I think you start them out on the wrong foot. It encourages them to think of investments like a savings account or like numbers on a spreadsheet. I think PF writers should take a more holistic approach to explaining what happens when the price of a stock goes up or down.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 08:46:13 AM by mathlete »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2020, 08:45:43 AM »



Another is calling compound growth compound interest. When you get 10% market returns year/year, it's almost never compound interest. It's compound growth.



+1.

rmorris50

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2020, 08:56:12 AM »
Also when writers/people say paying more into your mortgage is investing in real estate. No, you already bought and invested in the property, you are now paying down debt. Which yes increases NW but it’s from reducing the liability side of your balance sheet.

Personal finance articles and exercise articles are useless to me at this point in my life. All recycled same advice.


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Zikoris

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2020, 11:11:25 AM »

Vagueness around numbers (and other things) pisses me off, which is why I make sure to be really specific when I write about personal finance. People are like "And then I started cooking at home and saved so much money!". That is NOT useful to anyone. What were you spending before versus after, how many people is that feeding, and is there any hidden stuff pushing the numbers down, like free food from work, or someone subsidizing your food in other ways? Where did you shop, what did you buy, what did you make? Real information that a person can do something with is what is actually useful to people learning about financial topics, not vague bullshit.

How do someone else's numbers really help you beyond "What they've done and how they're doing it"?

It tells you if you're on the same wavelength, and how applicable their advice is to you. Continuing the grocery example, if someone writes a piece and starts with "I was spending $1000/month on groceries, and got it down to $600!", while I am very happy for them, it is pretty much 100% guaranteed to be useless information for me since clearly they re only doing the most basic things a person could possibly do to save money, like looking at prices versus not. Whereas an ERE-style piece about moving from $300 to $100/month would be VERY useful and relevant.

A lot of people also find it helpful to see what FIRE progression looks like for someone with a similar income level to them, especially if they're early on in the process. I don't actually include our income in my own writing, because every employer I've had has asked me not to, but in addition to our jobs, I include savings rate and total amount spent, so a person with basic math skills (at the level a person would need understand FIRE) can certainly calculate it pretty easily.

ender

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2020, 11:21:02 AM »
A lot of people also find it helpful to see what FIRE progression looks like for someone with a similar income level to them, especially if they're early on in the process. I don't actually include our income in my own writing, because every employer I've had has asked me not to, but in addition to our jobs, I include savings rate and total amount spent, so a person with basic math skills (at the level a person would need understand FIRE) can certainly calculate it pretty easily.

Exactly.

The way I explain it to people is that there's a ladder of spending which everyone is on. Some people are at the bottom (ERE types of folks) some are at the top (billionaires).

People have a hard time imagining what life is like more than a rung away from where they are. It seems crazy to some people to spend say $40k/year as a couple. If you are on the $100k/year spending rung, that's far away and seems crazy.

Moving from 100k spend to 90k spend though? People can relate to this. It's close because it's a neighbor rung.

This by the way works for pretty much everything in life which is on a continuum. A lot of disagreements/conflict are caused because people are too far away on the rungs of whatever continuum they disagree on.

Zikoris

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2020, 11:38:01 AM »
A lot of people also find it helpful to see what FIRE progression looks like for someone with a similar income level to them, especially if they're early on in the process. I don't actually include our income in my own writing, because every employer I've had has asked me not to, but in addition to our jobs, I include savings rate and total amount spent, so a person with basic math skills (at the level a person would need understand FIRE) can certainly calculate it pretty easily.

Exactly.

The way I explain it to people is that there's a ladder of spending which everyone is on. Some people are at the bottom (ERE types of folks) some are at the top (billionaires).

People have a hard time imagining what life is like more than a rung away from where they are. It seems crazy to some people to spend say $40k/year as a couple. If you are on the $100k/year spending rung, that's far away and seems crazy.

Moving from 100k spend to 90k spend though? People can relate to this. It's close because it's a neighbor rung.

This by the way works for pretty much everything in life which is on a continuum. A lot of disagreements/conflict are caused because people are too far away on the rungs of whatever continuum they disagree on.

Yeah, I find this super interesting. As a low spender who is very open about it, I'm always fascinated by the hate that gets, as well as constant accusations of lying. Like first of all, what would be the point, and second, it's weird to assume people are lying anyways - when I see a budget that's really high, I might think they're being excessive and wasteful, but it wouldn't cross my mind that they might be outright lying and actually spend way less/more.

Also, people who don't understand math always seem to think there's fishy stuff going on once someone's net worth gets to that point in the graph where it starts increasing rapidly in comparison to income. It's really hard for some people to understand compounding, apparently.

stoaX

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2020, 11:46:29 AM »
I rarely read personal finance articles anymore for all the reasons cited in this thread.  When I do read on, it's because I'm looking for something specific.

One thing I have noticed is that everyone seems to understand how high income and wealth go together but it's hard for most to understand how us retired early folks can be wealthy and yet have quite a low income.

AMandM

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2020, 02:11:52 PM »
My pet peeve in PF writing is sloppy use of the word "save," especially when it is used to mean "spend less than you could have in some other possible world."

Paul der Krake

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2020, 02:28:12 PM »
You guys realize most PF articles are churned out by an underpaid freelance writer who just has a template and fills in the blanks for $200/article, right?

Hook title

2-3 sentences introduction with a vague reference to current event X
This person thinks Y

<link to another wishywashy story>

But this other person says it depends
Look at this maybe imaginary Joe Sixpack who did Z and lived to tell me about it

<no way! this other Joe Sixpack did Z but with a twist, read all about it by clicking this link>

Vague conclusion about what could happen if X does or doesn't happen

jim555

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2020, 02:28:55 PM »
Anything linked from Yahoo Finance is usually useless.  They will have an article saying can a 55 yo with 1 million retire?  Then just pump out some generic garbage, and fail to mention the ACA at all.  Then quote the you need $286,456 (whatever) for medical number that gets floated around.  They don't even address the person's expenses.  Zero effort click bait.

exterous

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2020, 02:32:04 PM »
One thing that gets me that hasn't been mentioned yet is the often terrible selection of example cases to support the article. (Assuming they bother with useful budget information). Like where a headline might say that even people working two full time jobs can't save for retirement anymore and then use an example family where they have $800/mo in car payments and $700/mo food bills for a family of 3. It takes away from whatever topic they are trying to report on

Syonyk

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Re: Sloppy Personal Finance Writing
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2020, 02:38:07 PM »
One thing I have noticed is that everyone seems to understand how high income and wealth go together but it's hard for most to understand how us retired early folks can be wealthy and yet have quite a low income.

Except "high income and wealth" are rarely found together, until you get up into very, very high incomes.  The Millionaire Next Door (well worth reading, and isn't the sort of crap seen on the internet) authors went about trying to interview millionaires, and they found that often the people who looked like they were rich were actually horribly, horribly in debt.  Sure, 400k/yr income, but a few million in debt in the deal, if you consider what they owe on the house, luxury cars, vacation property, the cost of the obligatory private schooling, etc.  You see this every 6 months or so doing the rounds of the internet, how people that are making well into 6 figures are actually living very much paycheck to paycheck with no buffer at all, and no savings.  They found that actual millionaires (which I believe was just general total assets, including house value and such) tended to live far less flashy lives, and at the time they did their research, the most popular millionaire car was a Toyota Camry.  They also tended to be business owners.

But, yes, the two are really badly crosslinked in popular culture.

My pet peeve in PF writing is sloppy use of the word "save," especially when it is used to mean "spend less than you could have in some other possible world."

I totally saved up to 25% or more when I used my rewards credit card to invest in a brand new car! :p