Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?

[YttriumNitrate]

My little town is one people in Chicago move to when they want to get out of Chicago and Illinois while still having easy train access to the city. The real estate market here has gone crazy this year with things selling in days when they previously would have taken months while the listing prices are 50%+ higher than just a few years ago.

The general impression I get is that the newcomers were already thinking about moving for a variety of reasons and this year's craziness has acted as a catalyst to get them to move more so than as a major reason by itself. It will be interesting to see if there's a drop off in demand in the coming years as a result of compressing a couple years worth of sales into six months.

[dignam]

My little town is one people in Chicago move to when they want to get out of Chicago and Illinois

Also: basically the entire state of Wisconsin for Chicago people in the summer lol.

To answer: nah, not gonna leave anytime soon.  My gf would prefer to live somewhere warmer, but I like that the cold winters keep a lot of the "riffraff" out.  Plus our city/area really is a great place to live if you can deal with shitty winters; gf agrees.  Oh, but the property taxes...oh my goodness it's pretty bad here.

I would consider moving further into the sticks once Starlink is available here.  I'm already WFH most of the time anyway.

[StarBright]

 
I'd imagine that relocating from state to state can be quite isolating?  If you end up in different communities that have long-established friendship groups, does it become problematic to find new friends?

I've relocated to a different state 5 times in the last 15 years and each time has been because of a job (or lack thereof - thanks Great Recession!). It is isolating and finding friends is definitely hard, but once you've moved away from your support system once, it becomes less difficult.

We did turn down a job opportunity two years ago and on reason was that the thought of moving again when we didn't have to was enough to just wipe me out.

[Cranky]

It's interesting to read this thread from a British perspective. 

I've always ruled out the possibility of relocating.  I'm very close to my family, and my SO is very close to hers.  I love my city and I'm proud of where I come from.  At the same time, I realise there's potential to have a higher quality of life elsewhere, but my roots are firmly planted. 

I'd imagine that relocating from state to state can be quite isolating?  If you end up in different communities that have long-established friendship groups, does it become problematic to find new friends?

It depends? If you move into someplace where everyone else has lived there forever, yes, you can be always an outsider. This is very hard for some people and some people are just outgoing enough to build those relationships quickly.

But some places have much of their population as newcomers - Denver has been a place that people moved *to* for my whole lifetime, so there is a big acceptance of people who are new. (My dh's family didn't quite move there in a covered wagon, but close, and they are extremely rare.)

Professional people tend to make a lot of cross country moves, so those communities are more welcoming.

[Zikoris]

I'd imagine that relocating from state to state can be quite isolating?  If you end up in different communities that have long-established friendship groups, does it become problematic to find new friends?

It depends on how you form friendships. A lot of people make friends via proximity - classmates, co-workers, neighbours, etc, which often takes a really long time. That's common in a lot of the world. I'd say that in the large North American cities friendships tend to be based more around common interests - so people meet friends through, say, a hiking club or shared activity. I generally find friendships from those groups form a lot faster because you already have a lot in common to begin with. In my own case there tends to be a huge amount of overlap of people in my various interests (FIRE, travel, cooking, environmentalism, anticonsumption, philosophy, DIY, and outdoor activities, mainly), so if I meet someone through one of those, we most likely have an additional 2-3 more big things in common as well.

An interesting side effect of this is that people from the first group who move to these places often find the cities here kind of "chilly" socially because people from the second group aren't generally really interested in just going for drinks with their neighbour who they don't know if they have anything in common with yet.

[dougules]

I'm probably at some point going to skip town the other direction from what most people here are talking about.  I live in a small/medium city where I grew up and now have a decent career.  I'd like to leave and go somewhere more urban after FIRE, even if I have to work a couple years longer.  I feel like a round peg in a square hole here, even though it's my home town.  And my current location is still semi-urban.  I went to college in a small town, and I don't care to live anywhere that isolated again.  I think it's hard for the people who want to escape to the woods to quite understand that there are a whole lot of people who see it as limiting. 

Have things actually gotten worse in Portland?  I get the sense that all the images of mass homelessness and violent protests are overblown or at least just limited to a small area.  A large homeless population and big protests have been a thing in Portland for a long time. 

Leaving Louisiana and moving to Florida.  I'm tired of hurricanes.

Thanks for the chuckle.

[Fru-Gal]

We should start a thread about the wonder of urban life. No really. I freaking love it. World class views, great nature nearby, transit, food, culture, fun, people, talent, weirdos, architecture, history, treasures, trash service, lightning fast Internet...

[slappy]

We should start a thread about the wonder of urban life. No really. I freaking love it. World class views, great nature nearby, transit, food, culture, fun, people, talent, weirdos, architecture, history, treasures, trash service, lightning fast Internet...

Similar to this one?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/fire-for-city-people/

[Just Joe]

We did the big city thing earlier in life and discovered we preferred smallish towns around the time we married. Raised kids here. Worked our way through our careers and have had good lives here. We will likely retire here and have chosen a "forever home". of course when we're 75 and its too much trouble, we'll sell it. ;)

Each trip to the big city for our employers reaffirms we made the right choices for us. Yesterday it was me stuck in heavy traffic for ages as darkness fell. No thanks. Returned home on winding country roads and it was still faster than the clogged interstate. Apparently everyone is back to work. I thought COVID was still a thing?

For the same money as the big city we have over a dozen acres and a comfortable home an easy drive from our employers. Life here is simply easier. We shop the same brands, consume the same entertainment and have a good variety of franchise places to visit plus some really great local places when COVID isn't tainting everything. Ordering on the web substitutes for anything we can't buy locally.

We won't retire very early b/c we started later in life but we'll retire comfortably.

Look for medium sized cities or micropolitan areas between the coasts. Preferably with a university. Preferably a reasonable drive to a larger city where more entertainment and shopping opportunities await if you get restless.

DW and I are semi-introverted homebodies. We love to go out but most of the time, we're happiest at home. Our town offers plenty of opportunities to get out and mingle to our tolerance levels. Living in a city that has more of less endless opportunities to socialized would be wasted on us b/c we'd still be happily at home most of the time. And then we'd be required to deal with all the other challenges of city life every day rather than occasionally. The university provides events and diversity.

To answer the rural internet access question up thread: we have DSL. It is fast enough for eldest teen to game online while we stream to a pair of other devices simultaneously. The problem is reliability. When it fails it take days for the provider to get a technician to our door step but this failing provider has famously slow response times. If we closer to town, we might have access to one of the other two providers and service might be more reliable, faster and with better outage response times. That is part of the reason that I think having a local university is important. The university requires good internet service and thus I'd like to believe improves service for the whole town to serve businesses, students, and faculty who work from home. Our provider seems to be improving customer response times lately. If it was a major problem I'd switch to the local cell provider of choice and have a hotspot to back up my DSL.

Back to the original question: not skipping town b/c we did that 20+ years ago. ;)

[Just Joe]

Also, consider what it means to move away from your support circle. We're a couple hrs from our extended families. We raised our kids alone while siblings relied heavily on our other siblings and parents for child care. They have a closeness with each other that is just different for us. DW and I have always been more independent anyhow. We missed out on episodes of "family drama" so that's been a plus... ;)

I'm not sure moving further away would be any different for us but had we been local to the extended family and then moved long distance - it would be tough.

We met a couple that moved from the northeast to escape high taxes. They lasted only a few years before returning home b/c everyone they knew and cared about was back in the high tax state. Maybe if they had moved to a retiree mecca like Florida they would have been able to develop a new social circle but here they were neither independent enough nor plugged into the usual social outlets of family, workplaces, and church families. There are other opportunities but those are the obvious ones. The other ones are connected to hobbies as mentioned up thread. That's been DW and my solutions.   

[Cranky]

A lot of people retire to Florida. The guy plays golf for some years, and then dies, and then the wife moves back to be closer to the family.

We are actually moving to *be* closer to family. I don't like the weather in Ohio, and I don't expect to like it any better in Wisconsin, but the area we are moving to is very pleasant.

[Just Joe]

I've visited Wisconsin in the milder months and thought it was quite nice. The winters are probably tough though.

[Cranky]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

[Just Joe]

Similar grey skies here too in the winter. Gets old.

[StarBright]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

The greyness of Northern Ohio winter is still shocking me to and I've been here a few years now. I started my supplemental vitamin D and sun lamp the first week of October this year, hoping to stay ahead of the winter blahs.

[Chrissy]

UPDATE:  We got the word this morning that my job isn't coming back until late 2021, so we're moving to our rural lake house.  We've already put in our notice with our landlord, daycare, and school.  It's a mad dash to have us out of our apartment by the end of the month.

[Buffaloski Boris]

UPDATE:  We got the word this morning that my job isn't coming back until late 2021, so we're moving to our rural lake house.  We've already put in our notice with our landlord, daycare, and school.  It's a mad dash to have us out of our apartment by the end of the month.

Cool. So what’s the over/under that you just skip going back to Chicago?

[dignam]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

[By the River]

Our bid for a rural lake condo was just accepted.  It has high speed internet so easy to work from there just as easy as working from home.  We are within a few years of retirement and moved our purchase up to take advantage of great interest rates and the work from home aspect.  I assume that home demand there will be steady as people learn that they can live further away from work and still be productive. 

[Just Joe]

So you'll need to change your username... ;)

CONGRATS!

[Chrissy]

UPDATE:  We got the word this morning that my job isn't coming back until late 2021, so we're moving to our rural lake house.  We've already put in our notice with our landlord, daycare, and school.  It's a mad dash to have us out of our apartment by the end of the month.

Cool. So what’s the over/under that you just skip going back to Chicago?

Unclear.  I LOVE my job in entertainment, so I definitely want to come back for that. 

[Manchester]

I'd imagine that relocating from state to state can be quite isolating?  If you end up in different communities that have long-established friendship groups, does it become problematic to find new friends?

It depends on how you form friendships. A lot of people make friends via proximity - classmates, co-workers, neighbours, etc, which often takes a really long time. That's common in a lot of the world. I'd say that in the large North American cities friendships tend to be based more around common interests - so people meet friends through, say, a hiking club or shared activity. I generally find friendships from those groups form a lot faster because you already have a lot in common to begin with. In my own case there tends to be a huge amount of overlap of people in my various interests (FIRE, travel, cooking, environmentalism, anticonsumption, philosophy, DIY, and outdoor activities, mainly), so if I meet someone through one of those, we most likely have an additional 2-3 more big things in common as well.

An interesting side effect of this is that people from the first group who move to these places often find the cities here kind of "chilly" socially because people from the second group aren't generally really interested in just going for drinks with their neighbour who they don't know if they have anything in common with yet.

That's interesting and it makes sense that people make friends in different ways (common interests/proximity etc).

In Manchester, we're seen as one of the most welcoming and 'friendly' cities in the UK.  You tend to get a more 'chilly' reception further south (basically London).  But even in Manchester, people are usually friends from their school days and don't really change their bubble from then onwards. 

If you came from the US and wanted to join your local football team to make friends, everyone would be nice and polite, but they all would have been friends for years and you probably wouldn't be a real part of their friendship group for a very long time.  I think social groups in the UK are incredibly 'clique' orientated.  I also don't know if it's getting worse or better as a result of social media - the way we socialise just seems to have changed dramatically over the past decade.

[anotherAlias]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

Where is this sunny part of WI in winter?  I've lived here 15 years and struggle with the gloom every winter.  I'm actually looking at getting a sun lamp because I struggled so much last winter.

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[Cranky]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

Where is this sunny part of WI in winter?  I've lived here 15 years and struggle with the gloom every winter.  I'm actually looking at getting a sun lamp because I struggled so much last winter.

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I didn’t say it was the Sunshine State, just that it was better than NE Ohio. It’s a very low bar! ;-)

When we moved from Colorado to Detroit, we were pretty stunned by how gloomy winter was. Ugh.

[dignam]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

Where is this sunny part of WI in winter?  I've lived here 15 years and struggle with the gloom every winter.  I'm actually looking at getting a sun lamp because I struggled so much last winter.

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I agree, I've been here for much of my life, so it's not "sunny" in the winter by any stretch.  Just noticeably sunnier than other areas in the great lakes region.

[Trudie]

Moved from small, rural, cute, college town to mid-size university town in same state after we FIREd.  Traded in an 1800 square foot house an a half acre lot for a 1350 square foot condo in a historic adaptive reuse project. 

Socially it’s much better here.  Easier to make friends.  Lots of ways to connect, even during COVID.  Cost of living is about the same, but we bought our condo outright and lowered day to day expenses just by virtue of no longer working and commuting.

This is not a huge city, but it isn’t rural.  Am not a fan of rural living.  Just a personal choice.

[Arbitrage]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

Where is this sunny part of WI in winter?  I've lived here 15 years and struggle with the gloom every winter.  I'm actually looking at getting a sun lamp because I struggled so much last winter.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

I agree, I've been here for much of my life, so it's not "sunny" in the winter by any stretch.  Just noticeably sunnier than other areas in the great lakes region.

A quick check of Wisconsin vs. West Michigan shows about 30 more sunny days per year in Milwaukee than the other side of the lake (and about the same number of partly sunny days).  Wisconsin's not Phoenix by any means, but noticeably less dreary.

Never lived in Wisconsin myself, though I have family there, but I grew up in West MI.

[paideuma]

I'm considering making a move. My workplace has said we will be WFH throughout all of 2021, so that opens up some possibilities since I am renting. Was considering buying a place, but with the market craziness it hasn't worked out. I'm not trying to time the real estate market, but with prices going higher every month, I'm not entirely convinced to buy if I don't have to.

I'm on the east coast now in a MCOL, but there have been a ton of outdoor spots (national/state parks) I've wanted to explore in the western part of the US. I was thinking with somewhere like Portland, Seattle, Denver (open to more) as a homebase for a year, it would make a lot of those trips more feasible. Still a days drive in a lot of cases, but that is better than 3+ days. And they all have plenty of hiking and camping nearby for weekend trips.

Still trying to keep COL down, I would look to the suburbs for a rental and in some brief searching that seems doable (rent under $2k /mo for a 2-3 bedroom). With COVID, I doubt I would get to experience any of those cities fully, as there will likely be some level of gathering restrictions for the next year. WFH, there is no need to be "in the city" for job purposes. As long as I'm close to a grocery store I'll be good. So given the restrictions that will be in place for the next year, and the opportunity to move anywhere, to move somewhere where I can explore outside as much as possible. Maybe get a taste of slow travel before FI.

[FINate]

I'm considering making a move. My workplace has said we will be WFH throughout all of 2021, so that opens up some possibilities since I am renting. Was considering buying a place, but with the market craziness it hasn't worked out. I'm not trying to time the real estate market, but with prices going higher every month, I'm not entirely convinced to buy if I don't have to.

I'm on the east coast now in a MCOL, but there have been a ton of outdoor spots (national/state parks) I've wanted to explore in the western part of the US. I was thinking with somewhere like Portland, Seattle, Denver (open to more) as a homebase for a year, it would make a lot of those trips more feasible. Still a days drive in a lot of cases, but that is better than 3+ days. And they all have plenty of hiking and camping nearby for weekend trips.

Still trying to keep COL down, I would look to the suburbs for a rental and in some brief searching that seems doable (rent under $2k /mo for a 2-3 bedroom). With COVID, I doubt I would get to experience any of those cities fully, as there will likely be some level of gathering restrictions for the next year. WFH, there is no need to be "in the city" for job purposes. As long as I'm close to a grocery store I'll be good. So given the restrictions that will be in place for the next year, and the opportunity to move anywhere, to move somewhere where I can explore outside as much as possible. Maybe get a taste of slow travel before FI.

Fun! What a great opportunity.

The definitions are a little squishy here, but I would say Seattle is HCOL, Portland a little less so. My sense is that Denver has also become a lot more expensive, but not sure about this.

The "problem" (if you can call it that) with Seattle and Portland, in your situation, is that they are smashed up against the West Coast. This cuts the range of one-day-driving options almost in half. E.g. Seattle: Not a bad home base, puts you within very easy drive of Olympic NP, North Cascades NP, Mt Rainier NP, Mt Hood NP, and countless other State Parks. But, for a lot less money you can live in the Spokane/CDA area and still be within less than 6 hrs drive of all these places plus Glacier NP and (a little further, but still a day drive), Yellowstone NP and Grand Tetons NP.

Twin Falls, ID puts you within striking distance of Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and Glacier, and all the incredible NPs in Utah, plus Great Basin NP (an overlooked gem in far Eastern Nevada).

St. George/Hurricane, UT puts you within a day of all the NPs in UT, plus North and South Rim of the Grand Canyon, Great Basin NP, plus the backside of Yosemite NP and all the Eastern Sierras (overrun, but gorgeous), and Death Valley NP.

In short, if you don't need to be near an airport or in a major metro area, you can live for very little in smaller cities/towns that put you within range of a lot more.

[Smevans]

We are moving.

We moved to Wisconsin in 2017 for my company. But with the pandemic, it is clear I can do my job from home. And since October through the end of May are absolutely miserable and cold, we are moving to the South.

[Smevans]

I've visited Wisconsin in the milder months and thought it was quite nice. The winters are probably tough though.

June 15th through the end of September are wonderful in Wisconsin.

October 1st through mid-June are horrible.

[paideuma]

I'm considering making a move. My workplace has said we will be WFH throughout all of 2021, so that opens up some possibilities since I am renting. Was considering buying a place, but with the market craziness it hasn't worked out. I'm not trying to time the real estate market, but with prices going higher every month, I'm not entirely convinced to buy if I don't have to.

I'm on the east coast now in a MCOL, but there have been a ton of outdoor spots (national/state parks) I've wanted to explore in the western part of the US. I was thinking with somewhere like Portland, Seattle, Denver (open to more) as a homebase for a year, it would make a lot of those trips more feasible. Still a days drive in a lot of cases, but that is better than 3+ days. And they all have plenty of hiking and camping nearby for weekend trips.

Still trying to keep COL down, I would look to the suburbs for a rental and in some brief searching that seems doable (rent under $2k /mo for a 2-3 bedroom). With COVID, I doubt I would get to experience any of those cities fully, as there will likely be some level of gathering restrictions for the next year. WFH, there is no need to be "in the city" for job purposes. As long as I'm close to a grocery store I'll be good. So given the restrictions that will be in place for the next year, and the opportunity to move anywhere, to move somewhere where I can explore outside as much as possible. Maybe get a taste of slow travel before FI.

Fun! What a great opportunity.

The definitions are a little squishy here, but I would say Seattle is HCOL, Portland a little less so. My sense is that Denver has also become a lot more expensive, but not sure about this.

The "problem" (if you can call it that) with Seattle and Portland, in your situation, is that they are smashed up against the West Coast. This cuts the range of one-day-driving options almost in half. E.g. Seattle: Not a bad home base, puts you within very easy drive of Olympic NP, North Cascades NP, Mt Rainier NP, Mt Hood NP, and countless other State Parks. But, for a lot less money you can live in the Spokane/CDA area and still be within less than 6 hrs drive of all these places plus Glacier NP and (a little further, but still a day drive), Yellowstone NP and Grand Tetons NP.

Twin Falls, ID puts you within striking distance of Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, and Glacier, and all the incredible NPs in Utah, plus Great Basin NP (an overlooked gem in far Eastern Nevada).

St. George/Hurricane, UT puts you within a day of all the NPs in UT, plus North and South Rim of the Grand Canyon, Great Basin NP, plus the backside of Yosemite NP and all the Eastern Sierras (overrun, but gorgeous), and Death Valley NP.

In short, if you don't need to be near an airport or in a major metro area, you can live for very little in smaller cities/towns that put you within range of a lot more.

Yep! Some great points here. Agree those cities are HCOL, but further out in the suburbs where I'd be looking I'd consider more MCOL. Seattle might have to get even further out, maybe not as possible there.

This has definitely made me consider some other spots, because yeah, if the aim here is to be closer to parks that makes sense. Any mid sized town can provide the other essentials (a few different grocery stores, takeout options, reliable high speed internet). No need to be near an airport for the next year. Still early on in the decision making process so lots to consider. Thanks for the reply!

[texxan1]

as soon as my bride gets her greencard.. were bolting to Thailand... Already gave a condo there, so just need the american paperwork side done and were in  business,   we change our mind often, but seems that it alway goes back to somewhere that is always warm lol

[FINate]

Yep! Some great points here. Agree those cities are HCOL, but further out in the suburbs where I'd be looking I'd consider more MCOL. Seattle might have to get even further out, maybe not as possible there.

This has definitely made me consider some other spots, because yeah, if the aim here is to be closer to parks that makes sense. Any mid sized town can provide the other essentials (a few different grocery stores, takeout options, reliable high speed internet). No need to be near an airport for the next year. Still early on in the decision making process so lots to consider. Thanks for the reply!

If that's all you need then you have a huge number of potential locations. Most cities with population over 50k should have these, with perhaps internet being the wildcard. Cities with a university, and/or airport, large government agency (fed or state), should be on or near the internet backbone, which often (though, not always) translates to good residential service. ETA: You may find better internet in the heart of a small city than in the far flung suburbs of a larger metro.

You're renting, so if you're living somewhat light you can easily move along to the next location if you get bored/don't like it. Could even plan to stay 6 months in one place and 6 months in another, or however you want to slice it up. Could winter in the south west and summer in the north west. I'm a little jealous :)

Keep us posted on your adventures.

[Johnez]

Leaving greater Los Angeles for Omaha, NE. Cost of living + change of pace. People either seem to think it's an excellent idea or a horrible one. We'll see.

[Dancin'Dog]

Leaving greater Los Angeles for Omaha, NE. Cost of living + change of pace. People either seem to think it's an excellent idea or a horrible one. We'll see.

I've never been to either, but if I had to choose I'd try Omaha first.  I'll take flat over crowded any day. 


Maybe you'll see Warren Buffett at McDonald's eating breakfast.   

[roomtempmayo]

The upside is that Wisconsin is a lot sunnier in the winter than NE Ohio, which is horribly grey all winter.

This is true of most of lower Michigan as well (especially western MI).  Wisconsin actually gets quite a bit more sun in the winter, although probably a bit colder.  My dad lived outside of Kalamazoo for several years for work.  The one thing he said he didn't expect was the unrelenting cloud cover in the winter and was glad to move back here.

Where is this sunny part of WI in winter?  I've lived here 15 years and struggle with the gloom every winter.  I'm actually looking at getting a sun lamp because I struggled so much last winter.

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I agree, I've been here for much of my life, so it's not "sunny" in the winter by any stretch.  Just noticeably sunnier than other areas in the great lakes region.

A quick check of Wisconsin vs. West Michigan shows about 30 more sunny days per year in Milwaukee than the other side of the lake (and about the same number of partly sunny days).  Wisconsin's not Phoenix by any means, but noticeably less dreary.

Never lived in Wisconsin myself, though I have family there, but I grew up in West MI.

Western Wisconsin once you're outside of the prevailing northeast jetstream off Lake Superior is surprisingly sunny in the winter.  Minnesota and the Dakotas are also pretty sunny in the winter, certainly sunnier than most of the northeast.

@Buffaloski Boris That's a good article.  There is basically no evidence of a macro trend of homeowners leaving cities.  Yes, renters left NYC and SF.  Yes, the condo market is in the dumps.  Yes, people are living at vacation homes, and shopping for vacation homes.  But the single family home market in core urban areas has roughly matched the suburban and exurban markets in most metros.  People are making short-term moves, but they're not generally altering their life trajectories because of Covid.  Who would really change their life 180 longterm because of a phenomenon we all expect to last months?

Anecdotally, I've known a few people who have made noisy exits from the city since Covid, telling everyone who would listen about how the mayor was a bum and the city had been ruined.  In every case, they were talking about moving well before Covid, and their politics/worldview had significantly departed from urban liberalism over time.  I guess those folks must overlap socially with lots of news reporters, because their stories have sure gotten lots of uncritical airtime (for example, yesterday's NPR Marketplace segment offhandedly mentioned all the people fleeing urban areas as common knowledge).

However, the danger urban areas face is one they haven't really addressed yet, and it's crime.  Crime is up, and in many cities it's way up.  A cornerstone of cities (underneath public transit and walkability and nightlife) is a perception that the city is a safe place for property and people with property.  For the past few decades, that has relied on the community's political will to use the police force to perform the sort of surveillance (usually of those who are poor/Black/brown/mentally ill/transient) that keeps the peace with the propertied class (usually white and professional) so that massive inequalities can exist in close proximity.  If cities lose the political will to police the poor, we'll see another episode of white flight and a death spiral in property values, circa 1960-1990.  We're not there yet, but it's a definite possibility.  The modern (highly unequal, highly segregated) city as we know it cannot exist without a parallel police state engaged in constant low level repression.

[bmjohnson35]

We aren't going anywhere in the near future.  If it was up to me, we would sell everything and move abroad after Covid has blown over sufficiently.  Mainly just for the experience of different cultures and way of life.  I wouldn't mind living 6 months to a year somewhere and move on to another place.  Spouse enjoys traveling, but not interested in moving out the US.