Author Topic: Silly article on how much you need to be fi  (Read 34773 times)

GU

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2018, 10:40:42 PM »
Was anyone else annoyed by the incorrect, or I suppose new, usage of the phrase "coupon clipping" in the article? That phrase does not refer to frugal people cutting out discount coupons from the mail. It used to refer to the clipping of an interest payment coupon from a bond. The phrase was used to evoke wealthy pensioners or "old money" types that didn't have to work for a living, but could pay for expenses by clipping some bond coupons. The new usage is galling because it completely flips the meaning on its head.

HBFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2018, 10:51:13 PM »
Was anyone else annoyed by the incorrect, or I suppose new, usage of the phrase "coupon clipping" in the article? That phrase does not refer to frugal people cutting out discount coupons from the mail. It used to refer to the clipping of an interest payment coupon from a bond. The phrase was used to evoke wealthy pensioners or "old money" types that didn't have to work for a living, but could pay for expenses by clipping some bond coupons. The new usage is galling because it completely flips the meaning on its head.

No.  But I'm not old enough to remember that I suppose.  The dictionary gives 2 definitions of the term.  Getting annoyed by something like this seems odd.

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2018, 09:15:32 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!

As a person spending more than that per month on average, single, in a relatively LCOL area, I can say we must have VERY different definitions of what it means to "live like a baller".

DreamFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2018, 09:32:08 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!
Yeah, I'm living very comfortably on less than half that amount living alone in a large paid-for house in a LCOL area.  I save well over $4000/mo, but I can't imagine spending that much while still working full time.  When I FIRE and have a lot of free time for travel and such, that might be a different story, so I base my SWR and stache levels for FIRE on $4000/mo. but will likely spend less.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 11:06:10 AM by DreamFIRE »

FiveSigmas

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2018, 10:54:45 AM »
Was anyone else annoyed by the incorrect, or I suppose new, usage of the phrase "coupon clipping" in the article? That phrase does not refer to frugal people cutting out discount coupons from the mail. It used to refer to the clipping of an interest payment coupon from a bond. The phrase was used to evoke wealthy pensioners or "old money" types that didn't have to work for a living, but could pay for expenses by clipping some bond coupons. The new usage is galling because it completely flips the meaning on its head.

No.  But I'm not old enough to remember that I suppose.  The dictionary gives 2 definitions of the term.  Getting annoyed by something like this seems odd.

Someone should sanction his use of such ambiguous terms.

adamsputnik

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2018, 09:00:07 PM »
In other news, dickhead finance guy is a dickhead, writes like a dickhead, espouses dickhead opinions.

Dickhead probably budgets $500 a month for trips to the tanning salon.

the_fixer

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2018, 10:06:29 PM »
GTL bro

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 07:58:37 AM »
It’s very hard to find housing in NYC for under 2k a month even for a 1 bed (not taking about a room and having roommates). So In my mind 4K a month here is actually pretty frugal. Most of my friends bought their places a decade or more ago so we are mostly paying a lot less in housing but I think we are the minority.

It seems like half of the people responding are missing the key aspect of his article... The $4,000 budget he is speaking of is for people that do NOT live in a HCOLA so NYC housing is irrelevant. Conversely, you can get quite the house for a mortgage payment of $900 a month in the large city that I live in. 

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 09:12:46 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!

As a person spending more than that per month on average, single, in a relatively LCOL area, I can say we must have VERY different definitions of what it means to "live like a baller".

Apparently, because I'm spending about half of that in a HCOL area and feel like I have a pretty awesome life! Fast sports car, offroad vehicle, giant TV and sound system, NYC social life...

I could spend $4k a month if I wanted to but I'd have to really try. More/expensive cars, spending $250/weekend on drinks/etc would do it, I guess.

tipster350

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 09:18:53 AM »
$4k a month seems on target to me. I'm planning for the $55-60k per year range as I will have a mortgage and fairly high property taxes to pay for, well into my 80s, should I choose to stay in my current home. I'm also not a DIYer as I have no ability or interest in most of that except for cooking. I live in a moderately high COL area. Not SF, NY, or LA, but above median.

I know a lot of folks live on less and feel comfortable, and I say good for them. But when we get older a lot of expenses hit for healthcare and related, along with some unexpected life circumstances that may not be in view for a younger person.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 09:26:37 AM by tipster350 »

HBFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2018, 09:23:59 AM »
4 K a month without a paid off mortgage is completely reasonable.  My wife and I are permanent renters in a decently HCOL area (coastal CA), and our monthly spending is about 6 K.  We definitely don't live like ballers and have optimized our spending very well relative to where we live.

This article is actually not all that bad, just ignore some of the silly extreme stuff.   The site itself actually has some useful stuff.  Again, ignore the extremes of it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 09:26:02 AM by dustinst22 »

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2018, 09:28:12 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!

As a person spending more than that per month on average, single, in a relatively LCOL area, I can say we must have VERY different definitions of what it means to "live like a baller".

Apparently, because I'm spending about half of that in a HCOL area and feel like I have a pretty awesome life! Fast sports car, offroad vehicle, giant TV and sound system, NYC social life...

I could spend $4k a month if I wanted to but I'd have to really try. More/expensive cars, spending $250/weekend on drinks/etc would do it, I guess.

Let's see:
$1,060 mortgage (PITI) (not a McMansion, that would be double or more)
$300 house maintenance fund (~3% of home value per year)
$450 utilities
$110 vehicles insurance (bike and car)
$100 gas
$200 savings towards new vehicle every ~7-10 years
$10 umbrella insurance
$215 medical/dental

That's $2,445 for me and I haven't even bought food (I spend a lot there but could spend less), paid the phone bill, bought my dog food/toys/vet bills, household goods, vehicle maintenance, much less started doing anything "baller". I get 7-8 weeks of vacation every year and I'm certainly not paying for first class airfare anywhere with what's left over out of $4k at that point.

IMO, a baller would have twice the house, more expensive vehicles swapped out more often, more toys (toss in a boat, for sure, probably a much more expensive motorcycle, etc), they'd fly first class internationally for a few of those weeks of vacation and stay in 5-star resorts, etc.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2018, 10:18:12 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!

As a person spending more than that per month on average, single, in a relatively LCOL area, I can say we must have VERY different definitions of what it means to "live like a baller".

Apparently, because I'm spending about half of that in a HCOL area and feel like I have a pretty awesome life! Fast sports car, offroad vehicle, giant TV and sound system, NYC social life...

I could spend $4k a month if I wanted to but I'd have to really try. More/expensive cars, spending $250/weekend on drinks/etc would do it, I guess.

Let's see:
$1,060 mortgage (PITI) (not a McMansion, that would be double or more)
$300 house maintenance fund (~3% of home value per year)
$450 utilities
$110 vehicles insurance (bike and car)
$100 gas
$200 savings towards new vehicle every ~7-10 years
$10 umbrella insurance
$215 medical/dental

That's $2,445 for me and I haven't even bought food (I spend a lot there but could spend less), paid the phone bill, bought my dog food/toys/vet bills, household goods, vehicle maintenance, much less started doing anything "baller". I get 7-8 weeks of vacation every year and I'm certainly not paying for first class airfare anywhere with what's left over out of $4k at that point.

IMO, a baller would have twice the house, more expensive vehicles swapped out more often, more toys (toss in a boat, for sure, probably a much more expensive motorcycle, etc), they'd fly first class internationally for a few of those weeks of vacation and stay in 5-star resorts, etc.

$1500+ in food, phone, and vehicle maintenance should allow for a lot of other stuff. :P

I'm 20 minutes from Manhattan-
$1025 rent (shared ~850 sq ft 2br)
$45 utilities
$100 vehicle insurance
$100 gas
$12 renters insurance
$230 vehicle payment (1.99%, no point in paying it off with cash on hand)
$50 transit (train/bus/subway)
$15 netflix
-$35 phone ($35/mo with $70/mo reimbursement)
~$60 health care

I have no idea what I spend for food/etc (couple hundred a month and maybe another $100 eating out), and am definitely in a low-spend phase right now anyway (my rental house needs a $9k roof before I put it up for sale), but that's my general bare-bones requirement.  $2k with a couple hundred in misc spending.

To be a proper baller in my area I'd have to spend $4k/mo just in rent, though. Eeek.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 10:21:31 AM by JLee »

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2018, 10:57:54 AM »
$4k a month seems on target to me. I'm planning for the $55-60k per year range as I will have a mortgage and fairly high property taxes to pay for, well into my 80s, should I choose to stay in my current home. I'm also not a DIYer as I have no ability or interest in most of that except for cooking. I live in a moderately high COL area. Not SF, NY, or LA, but above median.

I know a lot of folks live on less and feel comfortable, and I say good for them. But when we get older a lot of expenses hit for healthcare and related, along with some unexpected life circumstances that may not be in view for a younger person.

It's a little disturbing that there are so many replies that look at this completely absurd article's spending and say that "seems on target." Either people are not reading the article and seeing that he is talking about 4k being BAREBONES spending, as in basically min. wage, or they may not be as mustachian as they think. If you can spend more than $1k/mon on unnecessary things (non-basic food, dining out/drinks, travel, gas, etc.) you're simply not frugal.

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2018, 11:16:09 AM »
$4k a month seems on target to me. I'm planning for the $55-60k per year range as I will have a mortgage and fairly high property taxes to pay for, well into my 80s, should I choose to stay in my current home. I'm also not a DIYer as I have no ability or interest in most of that except for cooking. I live in a moderately high COL area. Not SF, NY, or LA, but above median.

I know a lot of folks live on less and feel comfortable, and I say good for them. But when we get older a lot of expenses hit for healthcare and related, along with some unexpected life circumstances that may not be in view for a younger person.

It's a little disturbing that there are so many replies that look at this completely absurd article's spending and say that "seems on target." Either people are not reading the article and seeing that he is talking about 4k being BAREBONES spending, as in basically min. wage, or they may not be as mustachian as they think. If you can spend more than $1k/mon on unnecessary things (non-basic food, dining out/drinks, travel, gas, etc.) you're simply not frugal.

Mustachianism isn't just about "not spending money". It's not "don't spend money except on necessities".

Let me quote the following:
Quote
The Mustache family does not lead an “extremely frugal” lifestyle by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, holy shit, we are a multimillionaire family living in an expensive house with a stream of luxury goods, services and food shooting at us from all directions.

Not only do we bathe daily in this spectacular river of affluence, but we even walk casually away from it a few times a year in order to ride in Jet Aircraft which allow us to sample other unnecessary parts of the world. The total bill for this nuclear explosion of consumption is an outrageous $25,000 per year, which would be closer to $40,000 if you accounted for mortgage interest or rent on a comparable house. The life we lead in this rich part of a rich country is extreme, but at the other end of the scale than that suggested by the critics.

$40k/year with a mortgage or rent is what MMM himself says his mustachian lifestyle would cost most people. That's just shy of $4k/month for an exactly mustachian lifestyle (from the man himself). Most of society would call his spending "minimalist" or "barebones". As such, I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree that it's fairly "basic" or "barebones" to spend $4k/month as a fully independent adult (and no, a person making minimum wage isn't a fully independent adult imo).

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2018, 11:42:18 AM »
Exactly, on $4,000 / month a single dude can live like a baller in a LCOL area!

As a person spending more than that per month on average, single, in a relatively LCOL area, I can say we must have VERY different definitions of what it means to "live like a baller".

Apparently, because I'm spending about half of that in a HCOL area and feel like I have a pretty awesome life! Fast sports car, offroad vehicle, giant TV and sound system, NYC social life...

I could spend $4k a month if I wanted to but I'd have to really try. More/expensive cars, spending $250/weekend on drinks/etc would do it, I guess.

Let's see:
$1,060 mortgage (PITI) (not a McMansion, that would be double or more)
$300 house maintenance fund (~3% of home value per year)
$450 utilities
$110 vehicles insurance (bike and car)
$100 gas
$200 savings towards new vehicle every ~7-10 years
$10 umbrella insurance
$215 medical/dental

That's $2,445 for me and I haven't even bought food (I spend a lot there but could spend less), paid the phone bill, bought my dog food/toys/vet bills, household goods, vehicle maintenance, much less started doing anything "baller". I get 7-8 weeks of vacation every year and I'm certainly not paying for first class airfare anywhere with what's left over out of $4k at that point.

IMO, a baller would have twice the house, more expensive vehicles swapped out more often, more toys (toss in a boat, for sure, probably a much more expensive motorcycle, etc), they'd fly first class internationally for a few of those weeks of vacation and stay in 5-star resorts, etc.

$1500+ in food, phone, and vehicle maintenance should allow for a lot of other stuff. :P

I'm 20 minutes from Manhattan-
$1025 rent (shared ~850 sq ft 2br)
$45 utilities
$100 vehicle insurance
$100 gas
$12 renters insurance
$230 vehicle payment (1.99%, no point in paying it off with cash on hand)
$50 transit (train/bus/subway)
$15 netflix
-$35 phone ($35/mo with $70/mo reimbursement)
~$60 health care

I have no idea what I spend for food/etc (couple hundred a month and maybe another $100 eating out), and am definitely in a low-spend phase right now anyway (my rental house needs a $9k roof before I put it up for sale), but that's my general bare-bones requirement.  $2k with a couple hundred in misc spending.

To be a proper baller in my area I'd have to spend $4k/mo just in rent, though. Eeek.

"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2018, 11:46:16 AM »
MMM is also a 3 person household. It's still very much frugal to have a child while maintaining that level of spending each year. People have told me they've spent $75K just during pregnancy and delivery, for a health baby...

My plan is to get my spending underneath my state's fulltime min. wage earnings which is about $1326(Includes rent/mortgage when I get it) and I will be moving soon to the downtown of a top 100 metro area. If I had 3 people this would put us at about $3900/mon... But the article isn't about 3 people, it's about one person in a theoretical LCOL area.

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2018, 11:52:37 AM »
MMM is also a 3 person household. It's still very much frugal to have a child while maintaining that level of spending each year. People have told me they've spent $75K just during pregnancy and delivery, for a health baby...

My plan is to get my spending underneath my state's fulltime min. wage earnings which is about $1326(Includes rent/mortgage when I get it) and I will be moving soon to the downtown of a top 100 metro area. If I had 3 people this would put us at about $3900/mon... But the article isn't about 3 people, it's about one person in a theoretical LCOL area.

Yes that is true but for >1 person households your costs don't increase on nearly the same scale. Example housing costs are relatively fixed while amount of people increase. Food costs would increase but not on a 1:1 ratio as single person households tend to throw out unused rotten foods. Car costs are relatively fixed as are insurance costs.

No one is saying that $4k figure is "bare bones" - far from it. However that level of spending is certainly a very reasonable level for a "comfy" retirement that the article was talking about.

You could retire on a few hundred a month if you lived in a van down by the river and dumpster dived for food. But that isn't the lifestyle the author wishes to emulate.

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2018, 11:54:34 AM »
MMM is also a 3 person household. It's still very much frugal to have a child while maintaining that level of spending each year. People have told me they've spent $75K just during pregnancy and delivery, for a health baby...

My plan is to get my spending underneath my state's fulltime min. wage earnings which is about $1326(Includes rent/mortgage when I get it) and I will be moving soon to the downtown of a top 100 metro area. If I had 3 people this would put us at about $3900/mon... But the article isn't about 3 people, it's about one person in a theoretical LCOL area.

Quote
We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive

No one is arguing that a person CAN'T manage to live extremely cheaply (ERE forums are full of people doing that). That wasn't what the article was about. It was about what the writer thinks a given lifestyle would cost for a "normal" person. I posted my basic info, which easily reaches $4k/month in a LCOL area for a lifestyle that is nowhere near "baller".

For "average American's", spending like an "average American", the spending amounts listed are pretty close to what an "average American" would consider to be normal for the stated lifestyles. Not to an "extreme frugal person", but to an "average American".

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2018, 12:33:17 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal. Yes if you are an "average American" you can spend any amount of money. This is because we are constantly force fed the notion that if we have the money we should spend almost all of it. That's why you have lots of broke people making 250k/year. But you are either an "average American" spending 4k/mon and you need to cut that shit down, or you're a mustachian and there's no way in hell you could spend that much.

I'm still working on being mustachian so I'm not judging but I mean just looking at your numbers somehow you spend $450/mon on utilities!? And you're saying you could
spend $1600/mon on groceries for you and your pet and a phone bill? How much do you pay veh maintenance each month??

And the truth is the 'average American' is a huge baller by any reasonable standards. If you mean a baller as someone that throws away balls of money than yeah you can't do that with 4k/mon

HBFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2018, 12:47:49 PM »
4 K a month without a paid off mortgage is completely reasonable.  My wife and I are permanent renters in a decently HCOL area (coastal CA), and our monthly spending is about 6 K.  We definitely don't live like ballers and have optimized our spending very well relative to where we live.

This article is actually not all that bad, just ignore some of the silly extreme stuff.   The site itself actually has some useful stuff.  Again, ignore the extremes of it.
Dustin I'm from your same town and would consider $6/month a massive amount to spend there for 2 renters with no kids. Even a nice downtown, beach close 2 bedroom apt or condo can be rented for around $2500 or less and everything else, like food and utilities, can be very inexpensive. I've been looking at rentals in the area as I'm considering moving back to HB This winter and could definitely live on half or less of your amount.

ETA not counting my housing expenses (had a paid off home) I easily lived on less than $1000/ month for everything else except travel.

We have 1 kid.  Granted, we do spend a bit on travel, and we are FI, but still we don't live a "baller" lifestyle.  That said, we don't live bare bones either, probably closer to a bogglehead lifestyle I suppose.    My point is, 4 K a month is not extravagant in an area that is on the higher side but not as much as say NYC or San Fran.

Also, I think you are ignoring health care costs.  Particularly for a couple or family, it is very expensive.  Just for rent + healthcare here (for couple or family), you're looking at over 3500/month alone (with a high deductible). If you have a couple health care costs over the year, then you're spending more than that on your health.   Our healthcare is approx 1100/month with a high deductible, but is fortunately a write off through my business, so there is a bit of a discount there.  As you can see, living in this area is easily approaching 5 K/month bare bones unless you're single.  Sounds like maybe you're still working?  IN that case, yes monthly spending can be quite a bit less due to health care coverage.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:11:06 PM by dustinst22 »

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2018, 12:56:20 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal. Yes if you are an "average American" you can spend any amount of money. This is because we are constantly force fed the notion that if we have the money we should spend almost all of it. That's why you have lots of broke people making 250k/year. But you are either an "average American" spending 4k/mon and you need to cut that shit down, or you're a mustachian and there's no way in hell you could spend that much.

I'm still working on being mustachian so I'm not judging but I mean just looking at your numbers somehow you spend $450/mon on utilities!? And you're saying you could
spend $1600/mon on groceries for you and your pet and a phone bill? How much do you pay veh maintenance each month??

And the truth is the 'average American' is a huge baller by any reasonable standards. If you mean a baller as someone that throws away balls of money than yeah you can't do that with 4k/mon

We'll agree to disagree since we have significantly different definitions of what it means to be mustachian. Yeah, my utilities are $450/month, and that's not getting any cheaper. I could easily spend $1,600/month on EVERYTHING above the basic spending I mentioned. Going out once a weekend to see a a show I'd enjoy would run $4-600/month. It's not NECESSARY spending but mustachianism is NOT about only spending on necessities. You read the "budget" numbers from the quote but missed the point of the article. Mustachianism ISN'T about extreme frugality, but it seems that's the message you got from it.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2018, 12:59:03 PM »
"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

You got me, the $35/mo net phone benefit is really skewing the math here.

:rolleyes:

Ballers don't live in $1k/mo houses either, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?

My point is I'm living what I feel is perfectly fine on ~$2k/mo.  Doubling that would allow for, IMO, a life of ridiculous excess.  Remember the median household income for the US is under $60k/yr and the median household size is 2.5x people, so a $50k post-tax spend is basically like 2+ people spending every dollar they earn.

I suppose it all depends on what your perspective is.

Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal. Yes if you are an "average American" you can spend any amount of money. This is because we are constantly force fed the notion that if we have the money we should spend almost all of it. That's why you have lots of broke people making 250k/year. But you are either an "average American" spending 4k/mon and you need to cut that shit down, or you're a mustachian and there's no way in hell you could spend that much.

I'm still working on being mustachian so I'm not judging but I mean just looking at your numbers somehow you spend $450/mon on utilities!? And you're saying you could
spend $1600/mon on groceries for you and your pet and a phone bill? How much do you pay veh maintenance each month??

And the truth is the 'average American' is a huge baller by any reasonable standards. If you mean a baller as someone that throws away balls of money than yeah you can't do that with 4k/mon

We'll agree to disagree since we have significantly different definitions of what it means to be mustachian. Yeah, my utilities are $450/month, and that's not getting any cheaper. I could easily spend $1,600/month on EVERYTHING above the basic spending I mentioned. Going out once a weekend to see a a show I'd enjoy would run $4-600/month. It's not NECESSARY spending but mustachianism is NOT about only spending on necessities. You read the "budget" numbers from the quote but missed the point of the article. Mustachianism ISN'T about extreme frugality, but it seems that's the message you got from it.

You're spending the median household income in the USA for one person.  It might be frugal in your mind, but it's not really.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:09:20 PM by JLee »

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2018, 01:11:10 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal.

YES WE KNOW THAT WAS STATED IN THE ARTICLE, THEY WERE NOT INTETESTED IN DISCUSSING A FRUGAL LIFESTYLE RETIRMENT.

Good grief people.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2018, 01:12:43 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal.

YES WE KNOW THAT WAS STATED IN THE ARTICLE, THEY WERE NOT INTETESTED IN DISCUSSING A FRUGAL LIFESTYLE RETIRMENT.

Good grief people.

..I think you got so mad you forgot that spellcheck exists.  Relax, it's just the internet. :P

inline five

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2018, 01:15:33 PM »
"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

You got me, the $35/mo net phone benefit is really skewing the math here.

:rolleyes:

Ballers don't live in $1k/mo houses either, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?

My point is I'm living what I feel is perfectly fine on ~$2k/mo.  Doubling that would allow for, IMO, a life of ridiculous excess.  Remember the median household income for the US is under $60k/yr and the median household size is 2.5x people, so a $50k post-tax spend is basically like 2+ people spending every dollar they earn.

I suppose it all depends on what your perspective is.



Actually it IS what the topic and OP was about.

What skews your numbers is the culmination of all your subsidized expenses.

Just because YOU feel living with roommates is a life of excess doesn't mean that is what social norms dictate.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2018, 01:16:49 PM »
"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

You got me, the $35/mo net phone benefit is really skewing the math here.

:rolleyes:

Ballers don't live in $1k/mo houses either, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?

My point is I'm living what I feel is perfectly fine on ~$2k/mo.  Doubling that would allow for, IMO, a life of ridiculous excess.  Remember the median household income for the US is under $60k/yr and the median household size is 2.5x people, so a $50k post-tax spend is basically like 2+ people spending every dollar they earn.

I suppose it all depends on what your perspective is.



Actually it IS what the topic and OP was about.

What skews your numbers is the culmination of all your subsidized expenses.

Just because YOU feel living with roommates is a life of excess doesn't mean that is what social norms dictate.

The context was that jclnuke felt they were being pretty cheap at $4k/mo.

I could kick my roommate out and go buy a 2019 Corvette Grand Sport and still spend less than you do...all while living 7 miles from midtown NYC.  I'm here to provide perspective. ;)

I said doubling what I spend would be ridiculous excess.  Please read what I posted.

"Social norms", lol.  47% of people in my age bracket in my state are living at home.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:31:01 PM by JLee »

inline five

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2018, 01:18:24 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal.

YES WE KNOW THAT WAS STATED IN THE ARTICLE, THEY WERE NOT INTETESTED IN DISCUSSING A FRUGAL LIFESTYLE RETIRMENT.

Good grief people.

..I think you got so mad you forgot that spellcheck exists.  Relax, it's just the internet. :P

Ha. Was typing on my phone while deplaning after getting in from a trip...

inline five

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2018, 01:26:11 PM »
"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

You got me, the $35/mo net phone benefit is really skewing the math here.

:rolleyes:

Ballers don't live in $1k/mo houses either, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?

My point is I'm living what I feel is perfectly fine on ~$2k/mo.  Doubling that would allow for, IMO, a life of ridiculous excess.  Remember the median household income for the US is under $60k/yr and the median household size is 2.5x people, so a $50k post-tax spend is basically like 2+ people spending every dollar they earn.

I suppose it all depends on what your perspective is.



Actually it IS what the topic and OP was about.

What skews your numbers is the culmination of all your subsidized expenses.

Just because YOU feel living with roommates is a life of excess doesn't mean that is what social norms dictate.

The context was that you felt you were being pretty cheap at $4k/mo.

I could kick my roommate out and go buy a 2019 Corvette Grand Sport and still spend less than you do...all while living 7 miles from midtown NYC.  I'm here to provide perspective. ;)

I said doubling what I spend would be ridiculous excess.  Please read what I posted.

"Social norms", lol.  47% of people in my age bracket in my state are living at home.

I never posted what I spend.

Are 47% of your age bracket retired? No? Than not applicable to the article being discussed.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2018, 01:28:54 PM »
"Ballers" don't live with roommates. Also if you read the article posted it's about someone who is retired, ergo not getting any subsidized work healthcare or phone reimbursements etc. etc.

You got me, the $35/mo net phone benefit is really skewing the math here.

:rolleyes:

Ballers don't live in $1k/mo houses either, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?

My point is I'm living what I feel is perfectly fine on ~$2k/mo.  Doubling that would allow for, IMO, a life of ridiculous excess.  Remember the median household income for the US is under $60k/yr and the median household size is 2.5x people, so a $50k post-tax spend is basically like 2+ people spending every dollar they earn.

I suppose it all depends on what your perspective is.



Actually it IS what the topic and OP was about.

What skews your numbers is the culmination of all your subsidized expenses.

Just because YOU feel living with roommates is a life of excess doesn't mean that is what social norms dictate.

The context was that you felt you were being pretty cheap at $4k/mo.

I could kick my roommate out and go buy a 2019 Corvette Grand Sport and still spend less than you do...all while living 7 miles from midtown NYC.  I'm here to provide perspective. ;)

I said doubling what I spend would be ridiculous excess.  Please read what I posted.

"Social norms", lol.  47% of people in my age bracket in my state are living at home.

I never posted what I spend.

Are 47% of your age bracket retired? No? Than not applicable to the article being discussed.

Ahh I'm getting you confused with jclnuke since you jumped into my response to them. Nevermind. Sometimes forum discussions go on tangents that are not specifically relevant to the article posted. That's what happened here. ;)

Regardless, I never said living with a roommate is a life of excess.  You came up with that all by yourself. My issue is with the assertion that $4k/mo is living cheap. It's not.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:32:27 PM by JLee »

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2018, 01:55:22 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal.

YES WE KNOW THAT WAS STATED IN THE ARTICLE, THEY WERE NOT INTETESTED IN DISCUSSING A FRUGAL LIFESTYLE RETIRMENT.

Good grief people.

Lol this has gotten crazy. I was responding to several people who have mentioned that the article is not really that bad as 4k/mon for one person is what they spend as mustachians. It's like if you're all making fun of people who wax their butt and one of your friends goes: Well that's not that weird I wax my butt all the time...


You're spending the median household income in the USA for one person.  It might be frugal in your mind, but it's not really.

This is a great point. $4k/mon isn't even normal for spendypants America!

BDWW

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal. Yes if you are an "average American" you can spend any amount of money. This is because we are constantly force fed the notion that if we have the money we should spend almost all of it. That's why you have lots of broke people making 250k/year. But you are either an "average American" spending 4k/mon and you need to cut that shit down, or you're a mustachian and there's no way in hell you could spend that much.

I'm still working on being mustachian so I'm not judging but I mean just looking at your numbers somehow you spend $450/mon on utilities!? And you're saying you could
spend $1600/mon on groceries for you and your pet and a phone bill? How much do you pay veh maintenance each month??

And the truth is the 'average American' is a huge baller by any reasonable standards. If you mean a baller as someone that throws away balls of money than yeah you can't do that with 4k/mon

We'll agree to disagree since we have significantly different definitions of what it means to be mustachian. Yeah, my utilities are $450/month, and that's not getting any cheaper. I could easily spend $1,600/month on EVERYTHING above the basic spending I mentioned. Going out once a weekend to see a a show I'd enjoy would run $4-600/month. It's not NECESSARY spending but mustachianism is NOT about only spending on necessities. You read the "budget" numbers from the quote but missed the point of the article. Mustachianism ISN'T about extreme frugality, but it seems that's the message you got from it.

Holy sh*t, spending $4(00?)-600 a month on shows is not extravagant?

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2018, 02:01:27 PM »
Well I understand what you are saying jlcnuke, but I point is that if you are spending $4k/mon then you are not being frugal. Yes if you are an "average American" you can spend any amount of money. This is because we are constantly force fed the notion that if we have the money we should spend almost all of it. That's why you have lots of broke people making 250k/year. But you are either an "average American" spending 4k/mon and you need to cut that shit down, or you're a mustachian and there's no way in hell you could spend that much.

I'm still working on being mustachian so I'm not judging but I mean just looking at your numbers somehow you spend $450/mon on utilities!? And you're saying you could
spend $1600/mon on groceries for you and your pet and a phone bill? How much do you pay veh maintenance each month??

And the truth is the 'average American' is a huge baller by any reasonable standards. If you mean a baller as someone that throws away balls of money than yeah you can't do that with 4k/mon

We'll agree to disagree since we have significantly different definitions of what it means to be mustachian. Yeah, my utilities are $450/month, and that's not getting any cheaper. I could easily spend $1,600/month on EVERYTHING above the basic spending I mentioned. Going out once a weekend to see a a show I'd enjoy would run $4-600/month. It's not NECESSARY spending but mustachianism is NOT about only spending on necessities. You read the "budget" numbers from the quote but missed the point of the article. Mustachianism ISN'T about extreme frugality, but it seems that's the message you got from it.

Holy sh*t, spending $4(00?)-600 a month on shows is not extravagant?

Nothing wrong with extravagance, IF it's for what you value and enjoy.  MMM doesn't say never spend any money on things that are expensive or extravagant. That isn't the message...

BDWW

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2018, 02:16:31 PM »

Nothing wrong with extravagance, IF it's for what you value and enjoy.  MMM doesn't say never spend any money on things that are expensive or extravagant. That isn't the message...

Sure... but wasn't your argument that you weren't living an extravagant lifestyle?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 02:27:10 PM by BDWW »

Inna

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2018, 02:22:55 PM »

It would be so easy to take the $1K allocated to fluff and fun to investing instead, not to mention I wanted to jump through the screen and help them set up a food budget when I saw the $1K allocated to food for one person - give me a break:).

To be honest, I plan to spend MORE in retirement than currently. Mostly I want to hire household help, so maybe not $4000/month. Anyway, to me they just have their order wrong. You want a fatFIRE lifestyle? SURE. But cut the fluff first and then bring it back in AFTER you have saved up for it!

HBFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2018, 02:25:35 PM »

It would be so easy to take the $1K allocated to fluff and fun to investing instead, not to mention I wanted to jump through the screen and help them set up a food budget when I saw the $1K allocated to food for one person - give me a break:).

To be honest, I plan to spend MORE in retirement than currently. Mostly I want to hire household help, so maybe not $4000/month. Anyway, to me they just have their order wrong. You want a fatFIRE lifestyle? SURE. But cut the fluff first and then bring it back in AFTER you have saved up for it!

This article is for after you are FI, not on getting to it.  I'd agree that 4 K/month is far too much for a non-FI single person to spend.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 02:30:44 PM by dustinst22 »

mathlete

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2018, 02:48:48 PM »
Just a reminder that $4K is not a real number than any thought whatsoever went into.

The whole purpose of the article and it's component parts are to make you feel small so that you'll sign up for the email list and click the affiliate links so you can feel big.

HBFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2018, 02:57:36 PM »
Just a reminder that $4K is not a real number than any thought whatsoever went into.

The whole purpose of the article and it's component parts are to make you feel small so that you'll sign up for the email list and click the affiliate links so you can feel big.

While I think you're right, I don't think targeting a 4 K/month FI allowance as a single person is that far fetched at all.  In fact I think it's pretty reasonable, particularly if you don't have a paid off home. With health care costs where they are right now, I don't think this number is unreasonable at all as a basic FI figure and not living close to the bone.

jlcnuke

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2018, 02:58:27 PM »

Nothing wrong with extravagance, IF it's for what you value and enjoy.  MMM doesn't say never spend any money on things that are expensive or extravagant. That isn't the message...

Sure... but wasn't you're argument that you weren't living an extravagant lifestyle?

Going out to a nice dinner or show once a month isn't what I'd call an "extravagant" lifestyle; and I'm not personally doing that exact spending, it was merely an example. Other examples of things that could quickly eat up $400, $600, $1000 etc could be:
1. Going out for a 'dinner and a movie" once or twice a week, not exactly extravagant as a single person (like the article is directed towards).
2. Catching a concert once a month (between tickets, parking, eating/drinking while out etc, all adds up).
3. Going to a professional sports game a couple times a month.
etc etc etc

That's not "driving a Lamborghini to the airport to catch a private jet for the trip to Milan for dinner" extravagant, nor is it "have box seat season tickets to the NFL team of your choice" extravagance, or "buying a new designer outfit each week to attend the latest fund-raising social event" extravagance, etc.

Sitting in stadium seats at an NFL game once a month will run most people hundreds alone (for that once day's spending, leaving only 27-30 more days of spending for their enjoyment to account for) if that's their enjoyment of choice (I think a buddy of mine paid ~$800 for the "rights" to buy tickets for his seat, then still has to pay around $40-100/ticket or so plus parking plus food and drinks while he's there with his family, running ~$2-300/game for 3 of them to go).

The point is, a "thing you enjoy and value" can be costly, even if you're not doing it regularly (once a month trips to a professional game, once a month trips to a broadway show, etc etc). Going out for one "nice night on the town" per month isn't what I'd call extravagant. If you get just as much enjoyment watching the local softball league play as you do going to a MLB game, then you can get just as much enjoyment for a much better value. If the experience of the stadium and watching your favorite team play is what brings the core of the enjoyment to your entertainment, then it's going to be a lot more costly. That doesn't mean you're living a "baller" lifestyle.



HOUSING   Projected Cost
All utilities   $485
Phone   $65
Mortgage   $1,060
Maintenance or repairs   $200
Other (lawn Care/termites/etc)   $80

Subtotals   $1,890
   
TRANSPORTATION   Projected Cost
Car Payment   $0
Bus/taxi fare   $0
Insurance (car + bike)   $133
Licensing/ad valorum   $12
Fuel   $100
Maintenance   $33
Saving for next vehicle   $250

Subtotals   $536
   
INSURANCE   Projected Cost
Home   $20
Health   $33
Umbrella   $12
Dental   $0

Subtotals   $32
   
FOOD   Projected Cost
Groceries   $612
Dining out   $200
Other   $0

Subtotals   $812
   
PETS   Projected Cost
Food   $10
Medical   $10
Grooming   $0
Toys   $10
Other   $10

Subtotals   $40
   
PERSONAL CARE   Projected Cost
Medical/dental   $0
Hair/nails   $10
Clothing   $25
Dry cleaning   $0
Health club   $0
Organization dues or fees   $0
Other- household/etc supplies   $35

Subtotals   $70


That's a typical budget for "the basics" in a relatively LCOL suburb. That totals to $3,414 (with employer or ACA heavily subsidized medical insurance).  Notice that it doesn't include ANY entertainment, vacations, etc spending. I personally value traveling to beautiful places where I can have great scuba diving, sailing, and enjoy white sandy beaches while experiencing a different culture. A trip to do that "comfortably" runs ~$2-3k for a week doing it the "normal" way (i.e. not trying to go extreme frugal travel hacking coupon clipping etc but also not flying first class or staying in the most expensive 5-star resorts, but also not staying in no-name roach-motels... i.e. like the people being discussed in the article would do it). Two vacations a year with some souvenirs tossed in and you're at $400-600/month to cover vacation costs for those two weeks off each year, bringing it up to $3,814-4,014/month. With the exceptions of those vacations, that budget still hasn't spend a single dollar going out and doing stuff for the rest of the year....

So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that $4k/month isn't "extravagant" or "baller" by any means. It's take a couple weeks of vacation each year and/or do some not too-expensive stuff each month for enjoyment when you aren't being "ERE frugal-like".

For the record, I spend more than $4k/month (the numbers above are old and don't necessarily reflect my current budget). No average American would call my lifestyle "baller" imo. I'm very frugal in many ways, but far from "extreme" in trying to cut expenses. The reason is simple, I can afford to do all that and more and still save upwards of 50% of my gross pay and I really enjoy what I spend my money on. You don't have to.

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2018, 03:15:57 PM »

Nothing wrong with extravagance, IF it's for what you value and enjoy.  MMM doesn't say never spend any money on things that are expensive or extravagant. That isn't the message...

Sure... but wasn't you're argument that you weren't living an extravagant lifestyle?

Going out to a nice dinner or show once a month isn't what I'd call an "extravagant" lifestyle; and I'm not personally doing that exact spending, it was merely an example. Other examples of things that could quickly eat up $400, $600, $1000 etc could be:
1. Going out for a 'dinner and a movie" once or twice a week, not exactly extravagant as a single person (like the article is directed towards).
2. Catching a concert once a month (between tickets, parking, eating/drinking while out etc, all adds up).
3. Going to a professional sports game a couple times a month.
etc etc etc

That's not "driving a Lamborghini to the airport to catch a private jet for the trip to Milan for dinner" extravagant, nor is it "have box seat season tickets to the NFL team of your choice" extravagance, or "buying a new designer outfit each week to attend the latest fund-raising social event" extravagance, etc.

Sitting in stadium seats at an NFL game once a month will run most people hundreds alone (for that once day's spending, leaving only 27-30 more days of spending for their enjoyment to account for) if that's their enjoyment of choice (I think a buddy of mine paid ~$800 for the "rights" to buy tickets for his seat, then still has to pay around $40-100/ticket or so plus parking plus food and drinks while he's there with his family, running ~$2-300/game for 3 of them to go).

The point is, a "thing you enjoy and value" can be costly, even if you're not doing it regularly (once a month trips to a professional game, once a month trips to a broadway show, etc etc). Going out for one "nice night on the town" per month isn't what I'd call extravagant. If you get just as much enjoyment watching the local softball league play as you do going to a MLB game, then you can get just as much enjoyment for a much better value. If the experience of the stadium and watching your favorite team play is what brings the core of the enjoyment to your entertainment, then it's going to be a lot more costly. That doesn't mean you're living a "baller" lifestyle.



HOUSING   Projected Cost
All utilities   $485
Phone   $65
Mortgage   $1,060
Maintenance or repairs   $200
Other (lawn Care/termites/etc)   $80


Subtotals   $1,890
   
TRANSPORTATION   Projected Cost
Car Payment   $0
Bus/taxi fare   $0
Insurance (car + bike)   $133
Licensing/ad valorum   $12
Fuel   $100
Maintenance   $33
Saving for next vehicle   $250

Subtotals   $536
   
INSURANCE   Projected Cost
Home   $20
Health   $33
Umbrella   $12
Dental   $0

Subtotals   $32
   
FOOD   Projected Cost
Groceries   $612
Dining out   $200
Other   $0

Subtotals   $812
   
PETS   Projected Cost
Food   $10
Medical   $10
Grooming   $0
Toys   $10
Other   $10

Subtotals   $40
   
PERSONAL CARE   Projected Cost
Medical/dental   $0
Hair/nails   $10
Clothing   $25
Dry cleaning   $0
Health club   $0
Organization dues or fees   $0
Other- household/etc supplies   $35

Subtotals   $70


That's a typical budget for "the basics" in a relatively LCOL suburb. That totals to $3,414 (with employer or ACA heavily subsidized medical insurance).  Notice that it doesn't include ANY entertainment, vacations, etc spending. I personally value traveling to beautiful places where I can have great scuba diving, sailing, and enjoy white sandy beaches while experiencing a different culture. A trip to do that "comfortably" runs ~$2-3k for a week doing it the "normal" way (i.e. not trying to go extreme frugal travel hacking coupon clipping etc but also not flying first class or staying in the most expensive 5-star resorts, but also not staying in no-name roach-motels... i.e. like the people being discussed in the article would do it). Two vacations a year with some souvenirs tossed in and you're at $400-600/month to cover vacation costs for those two weeks off each year, bringing it up to $3,814-4,014/month. With the exceptions of those vacations, that budget still hasn't spend a single dollar going out and doing stuff for the rest of the year....

So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that $4k/month isn't "extravagant" or "baller" by any means. It's take a couple weeks of vacation each year and/or do some not too-expensive stuff each month for enjoyment when you aren't being "ERE frugal-like".

For the record, I spend more than $4k/month (the numbers above are old and don't necessarily reflect my current budget). No average American would call my lifestyle "baller" imo. I'm very frugal in many ways, but far from "extreme" in trying to cut expenses. The reason is simple, I can afford to do all that and more and still save upwards of 50% of my gross pay and I really enjoy what I spend my money on. You don't have to.

I'm not sure you get the point of this website. The budget you just showed is insanely expensive. I am a powerlifter who tries to eat 3500+ calories a day and I only spend $200/mon on groceries. I don't coupon or any of that beyond convenience. I just shop at our version of Costco. How could you alone even eat $600 of food a month? Do you have a personal chef? And what do you pay that much for utilities for? I pay $110/mon tops. $68/ electricity, $46/ upgraded Comcast.(Keep in mind these numbers are probably even too high)

You're talking about a "night on the town." What you mean is going out and spending as much money as you feel like without the slightest consideration for frugality. That is the DEFINITION of a baller. The guy that just says "here's my card." Just taking your example of a football game. If he spends $140 tickets, that means he has to spend a minimum of $80 on food and drinks at the game. His kid doesn't drink and one of them should be driving so you're looking at one person spending $50+ on drinks and another $30 on food. Does the idea of bringing food that tastes way better not cross his mind?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 03:23:30 PM by JLE1990 »

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2018, 03:19:03 PM »
The average American may not call that lifestyle "baller," but for perspective keep in mind that the average American earns $862/week and would have a 0% savings rate at your spending level (assuming an 8.5% tax burden, which is low).

You're right, though -- it's not "baller."  Nothing in that article was private jet territory. You're talking thousands of dollars an hour in operating costs -- even at $20k/month in retirement income, you'd blow an entire month's dollar amount in one round trip flight from NY to FL.

FIRE47

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2018, 03:28:18 PM »

Nothing wrong with extravagance, IF it's for what you value and enjoy.  MMM doesn't say never spend any money on things that are expensive or extravagant. That isn't the message...

Sure... but wasn't you're argument that you weren't living an extravagant lifestyle?

Going out to a nice dinner or show once a month isn't what I'd call an "extravagant" lifestyle; and I'm not personally doing that exact spending, it was merely an example. Other examples of things that could quickly eat up $400, $600, $1000 etc could be:
1. Going out for a 'dinner and a movie" once or twice a week, not exactly extravagant as a single person (like the article is directed towards).
2. Catching a concert once a month (between tickets, parking, eating/drinking while out etc, all adds up).
3. Going to a professional sports game a couple times a month.
etc etc etc

That's not "driving a Lamborghini to the airport to catch a private jet for the trip to Milan for dinner" extravagant, nor is it "have box seat season tickets to the NFL team of your choice" extravagance, or "buying a new designer outfit each week to attend the latest fund-raising social event" extravagance, etc.

Sitting in stadium seats at an NFL game once a month will run most people hundreds alone (for that once day's spending, leaving only 27-30 more days of spending for their enjoyment to account for) if that's their enjoyment of choice (I think a buddy of mine paid ~$800 for the "rights" to buy tickets for his seat, then still has to pay around $40-100/ticket or so plus parking plus food and drinks while he's there with his family, running ~$2-300/game for 3 of them to go).

The point is, a "thing you enjoy and value" can be costly, even if you're not doing it regularly (once a month trips to a professional game, once a month trips to a broadway show, etc etc). Going out for one "nice night on the town" per month isn't what I'd call extravagant. If you get just as much enjoyment watching the local softball league play as you do going to a MLB game, then you can get just as much enjoyment for a much better value. If the experience of the stadium and watching your favorite team play is what brings the core of the enjoyment to your entertainment, then it's going to be a lot more costly. That doesn't mean you're living a "baller" lifestyle.



HOUSING   Projected Cost
All utilities   $485
Phone   $65
Mortgage   $1,060
Maintenance or repairs   $200
Other (lawn Care/termites/etc)   $80


Subtotals   $1,890
   
TRANSPORTATION   Projected Cost
Car Payment   $0
Bus/taxi fare   $0
Insurance (car + bike)   $133
Licensing/ad valorum   $12
Fuel   $100
Maintenance   $33
Saving for next vehicle   $250

Subtotals   $536
   
INSURANCE   Projected Cost
Home   $20
Health   $33
Umbrella   $12
Dental   $0

Subtotals   $32
   
FOOD   Projected Cost
Groceries   $612
Dining out   $200
Other   $0

Subtotals   $812
   
PETS   Projected Cost
Food   $10
Medical   $10
Grooming   $0
Toys   $10
Other   $10

Subtotals   $40
   
PERSONAL CARE   Projected Cost
Medical/dental   $0
Hair/nails   $10
Clothing   $25
Dry cleaning   $0
Health club   $0
Organization dues or fees   $0
Other- household/etc supplies   $35

Subtotals   $70


That's a typical budget for "the basics" in a relatively LCOL suburb. That totals to $3,414 (with employer or ACA heavily subsidized medical insurance).  Notice that it doesn't include ANY entertainment, vacations, etc spending. I personally value traveling to beautiful places where I can have great scuba diving, sailing, and enjoy white sandy beaches while experiencing a different culture. A trip to do that "comfortably" runs ~$2-3k for a week doing it the "normal" way (i.e. not trying to go extreme frugal travel hacking coupon clipping etc but also not flying first class or staying in the most expensive 5-star resorts, but also not staying in no-name roach-motels... i.e. like the people being discussed in the article would do it). Two vacations a year with some souvenirs tossed in and you're at $400-600/month to cover vacation costs for those two weeks off each year, bringing it up to $3,814-4,014/month. With the exceptions of those vacations, that budget still hasn't spend a single dollar going out and doing stuff for the rest of the year....

So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that $4k/month isn't "extravagant" or "baller" by any means. It's take a couple weeks of vacation each year and/or do some not too-expensive stuff each month for enjoyment when you aren't being "ERE frugal-like".

For the record, I spend more than $4k/month (the numbers above are old and don't necessarily reflect my current budget). No average American would call my lifestyle "baller" imo. I'm very frugal in many ways, but far from "extreme" in trying to cut expenses. The reason is simple, I can afford to do all that and more and still save upwards of 50% of my gross pay and I really enjoy what I spend my money on. You don't have to.

I'm not sure you get the point of this website. The budget you just showed is insanely expensive. I am a powerlifter who tries to eat 3500+ calories a day and I only spend $200/mon on groceries. I don't coupon or any of that beyond convenience. I just shop at our version of Costco. How could you alone even eat $600 of food a month? Do you have a personal chef? And what do you pay that much for utilities for? I pay $110/mon tops. $68/ electricity, $46/ upgraded Comcast.(Keep in mind these numbers are probably even too high)

You're talking about a "night on the town." What you mean is going out and spending as much money as you feel like without the slightest consideration for frugality. That is the DEFINITION of a baller. The guy that just says "here's my card." Just taking your example of a football game. If he spends $140 tickets, that means he has to spend a minimum of $80 on food and drinks at the game. His kid doesn't drink and one of them should be driving so you're looking at one person spending $50+ on drinks and another $30 on food. Does the idea of bringing food that tastes way better not cross his mind?

I was in disagreement with the overall site that started this thread but why is his maintenance line unrealistic? Sure it isnt a monthly cash expense but if you own your own home it is a very real expense even if it can't be smoothed into a monthly budget. $200 probably isnt anywhere near enough to maintain an average home over the long run TBH if you count things like appliances, furnace etc needing to be replaced.


nereo

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2018, 03:33:36 PM »
Their 'bare bones' = $48,000 spending/year (45th percentile of median income)
their 'normal' = $78,000 spending/year (65th percentile of median income)

The figures above point out just how absurd this is. Just under half of all households earn less than their bare-bones proposed spending. What they consider 'normal' spending exceeds what the majority of families bring in each year.

Once again internet knuckleheads assume some basic fiscal discipline is equatable to poverty. At far less than their 'bare-bones' budget I'm still embarassed at how comfortable and consumeristic our family is (not even single!)




inline five

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2018, 03:34:13 PM »
Yep a new roof alone is $50/month on a smaller 1000-1200 sq ft footprint. New HVAC is $30/month. Carpet $25. That's half your monthly mx budget right there.

JLE1990

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2018, 03:44:03 PM »
I can't speak to whether 200/mon is reasonable as I only rent. I was more pointing out the 200 and 80 for frivolous things like lawn care(Buy a cheap mower at a yard sale?).

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2018, 03:44:43 PM »
Yep a new roof alone is $50/month on a smaller 1000-1200 sq ft footprint. New HVAC is $30/month. Carpet $25. That's half your monthly mx budget right there.

Is roofing expensive in your area? Looking at a 20 year roof, my 1825 sq foot house (plus another couple hundred square feet of porch) could be amortized at $37/mo. Presumably, half of that roof would result in a significantly lower cost.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2018, 03:49:10 PM »
In real world spending over 25 years and two houses, my maintenance is still averaging less than $100/mo.  Of course, I'm a DIYer, which saves me a lot.  Replaced my own heat exchanger in my furnace where a vendor probably would have recommended replacing the whole system to the average home sucker.

Here's a thread that might help in estimating long term home maintenance costs:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/budgeting-home-maintenance-costs/
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 03:51:01 PM by DreamFIRE »

FIRE47

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2018, 03:59:19 PM »
In real world spending over 25 years and two houses, my maintenance is still averaging less than $100/mo.  Of course, I'm a DIYer, which saves me a lot.  Replaced my own heat exchanger in my furnace where a vendor probably would have recommended replacing the whole system to the average home sucker.

Here's a thread that might help in estimating long term home maintenance costs:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/budgeting-home-maintenance-costs/

Yea I only have 13 months to go on and basically so far have had to do nothing beyond the very basics, not even worth taking out of maintenance budget, but I know that isn't going to last. That being said $100 seems very unrealistic.

Even if I cut my current estimates in half it would be well over $100. What are you including? And how outdated do you let things get before replacing them? Inflation alone would probably bring you back up to $125-$150 as well.

JLee

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2018, 04:06:45 PM »
In real world spending over 25 years and two houses, my maintenance is still averaging less than $100/mo.  Of course, I'm a DIYer, which saves me a lot.  Replaced my own heat exchanger in my furnace where a vendor probably would have recommended replacing the whole system to the average home sucker.

Here's a thread that might help in estimating long term home maintenance costs:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/budgeting-home-maintenance-costs/

Yea I only have 13 months to go on and basically so far have had to do nothing beyond the very basics, not even worth taking out of maintenance budget, but I know that isn't going to last. That being said $100 seems very unrealistic.

Even if I cut my current estimates in half it would be well over $100. What are you including? And how outdated do you let things get before replacing them? Inflation alone would probably bring you back up to $125-$150 as well.

I'm at about $24/mo (water heater and AC repair) over five years. This is excluding little stuff like a ~$70 stove repair, $105 garbage disposal, etc..but even still, it's not much.

I do need a roof, which is $8900. That'll throw off the numbers a bit, but would give me 20+ years (if I wasn't selling the house, lol).

FIRE47

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Re: Silly article on how much you need to be fi
« Reply #99 on: April 23, 2018, 04:13:53 PM »
In real world spending over 25 years and two houses, my maintenance is still averaging less than $100/mo.  Of course, I'm a DIYer, which saves me a lot.  Replaced my own heat exchanger in my furnace where a vendor probably would have recommended replacing the whole system to the average home sucker.

Here's a thread that might help in estimating long term home maintenance costs:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/budgeting-home-maintenance-costs/

Yea I only have 13 months to go on and basically so far have had to do nothing beyond the very basics, not even worth taking out of maintenance budget, but I know that isn't going to last. That being said $100 seems very unrealistic.

Even if I cut my current estimates in half it would be well over $100. What are you including? And how outdated do you let things get before replacing them? Inflation alone would probably bring you back up to $125-$150 as well.

I'm at about $24/mo (water heater and AC repair) over five years. This is excluding little stuff like a ~$70 stove repair, $105 garbage disposal, etc..but even still, it's not much.

I do need a roof, which is $8900. That'll throw off the numbers a bit, but would give me 20+ years (if I wasn't selling the house, lol).

Here's hoping - if that turns out to be the case foe me in 25 years Ill be hundreds of thousands better off then I ever expected when I ran the numbers on buying.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!