Silly article on how much you need to be fi

[jlcnuke]

I can't speak to whether 200/mon is reasonable as I only rent. I was more pointing out the 200 and 80 for frivolous things like lawn care(Buy a cheap mower at a yard sale?).

It cost me ~$300 to buy the fertilizer etc to take care of my lawn (plus the costs of the stuff to maintain it or the gas to run those machines)... on sale. $345/year for termite protection. About another $50/year if I want to spray the yard so I can go outside without getting eaten alive by bugs etc etc

Then there's the whole "I travel for work often" thing (I've spent 2.5 days at home in the past 3 months for example) and suddenly I can't do everything myself and have to pay others to take care of some things at times.

I don't expect you to understand the costs of owning a home if you've never done it. A new roof for my house would run $5-8,000. HVAC replacement runs another $3-4,000. Appliances break. I don't enjoy living in an ugly decrepit home so I keep my landscaping looking nice (if minimalist), the paint not peeling off, the siding not covered in mold, the driveway not a black surface of dirt, etc. etc.     all that stuff costs money, and most aren't really "optional" if you want to take care of your home. FTR - the standard advice for homeowners is to expect ~1% of their home's cost in maintenance each year. My budget reflects that.

As for my food budget, I'm 100% sure I would hate your meal-plan. I could live off it I'm sure, but I'd probably hate it (maybe I'm wrong, do you also have a case of lobster tails in your freezer next to the case of crab legs, behind the whole beef tenderloin?). It is an "outrageous" food budget compared to most people (though I'm guessing it's probably 10% or less of Paris Hilton's food costs for comparison to a "luxurious" budget, and it's certainly much better than the guy I've worked with that spends $4-6k/month eating out with his wife).

Food (and travel, but I didn't actually share my travel expenses, I was afraid you might have a heart condition that couldn't handle it) are the two areas of my life that are anywhere close to "luxurious" imo right now (though I'm still not up to flying first class).

Most of the expenses I listed, however, are pretty much "average" costs a person in their 30's-40's owning a median or so cost home in a LCOL area (my house is 2,200 sq ft and cost $167k for example). 

Water minimum cost $42/month to keep it hooked up (I like water, I'll keep it).
Sewage ~$20/month on average (nope, not even included in the water price).
Trash and recycling $48/month. I prefer to have trash go away from my house, so I'll keep that too.
I'm over your utility bills total cost already and I haven't turned on the electricity or the gas to run the furnace/stove/water heater...... much less started watching TV
Electricity and gas average ~$225/month (one goes up, the other goes down) to keep the house a comfortable 72-74.
TV is another fun one, I could watch NONE and spend $0. I don't like that though, so I have a basic package at the home, but I like to watch shows on the road too so I also have Amazon Prime and Netflix and Hulu. None are necessary, but they bring me more enjoyment than the time needed to work for them produces in the opposite emotion.
Oh, and I need the internet for when I work at home so there's another $75/month. and suddenly I'm at almost $500/month in utilities for the house...


There are MANY things I could do to cut my budget. I could eat foods that aren't what I like. I could not watch the television shows that bring me enjoyment. I could keep my house at a temperature I don't like. I could not take the vacations I enjoy. I could sell my home and live out of a tent without electricity or running water. So many ways to save money. I haven't decided that any of those savings are worth it to me however. I'll stick with just saving my $50-60k/year, retiring quite comfortably in my 40's, and spending my money on the things I enjoy both now and then.

MMM says to spend money on the things that bring you actual enjoyment. I do. You can enjoy your life for less and that's great for you. That doesn't mean I want your life or would enjoy it, or that you would enjoy my life. But we each get to live our own lives.

Also, maybe I missed the requirement to be a hardcore MMM extreme-frugal non-spender in the terms of use of these forums..? Nope, pretty sure it's not there. I enjoy helping out people with my knowledge of finances, economics, and other subjects, as well as providing some perspective to some of the more hard-core members at times.

[DreamFIRE]

In real world spending over 25 years and two houses, my maintenance is still averaging less than $100/mo.  Of course, I'm a DIYer, which saves me a lot.  Replaced my own heat exchanger in my furnace where a vendor probably would have recommended replacing the whole system to the average home sucker.

Here's a thread that might help in estimating long term home maintenance costs:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/budgeting-home-maintenance-costs/

Yea I only have 13 months to go on and basically so far have had to do nothing beyond the very basics, not even worth taking out of maintenance budget, but I know that isn't going to last. That being said $100 seems very unrealistic.

Even if I cut my current estimates in half it would be well over $100. What are you including? And how outdated do you let things get before replacing them? Inflation alone would probably bring you back up to $125-$150 as well.

It's actually been quite a few years since I last calculated my home maintenance budget, which I set to $100/mo at the time, but as the years go by, I have stayed well under that amount, so I've never increased it.

I include all "necessary" maintenance in that, for things as outlined in the linked thread, as they pertain to my home.  I don't have a septic tank.  I live alone and am gone a lot, so I don't wear things out (like carpeting) as fast as a family.  I'm due for some new carpeting in my living room, a new couch, some deck work, and a couple new appliances, but I'm already factoring that in as money spent and am still under my budget.  I let some things go longer than I should, but it varies.

If I "choose" to upgrade or improve something in my home that is completely optional rather than needed maintenance, I consider that discretionary spending.  For example, I spent thousands insulating and finishing to my basement, not a necessity, so I don't count that as a home maintenance expense.

If something looks especially "dated" or worn but is functioning ok, I'm more likely to count that as a home maintenance item.

[HBFIRE]

When I paid health insurance it was more but not huge.

That's the key part right there.  Health insurance is VERY expensive now.  As mentioned, our premium is over 1100/month.  Sounds like you have yours covered though being a vet, which is great.  Unfortunately for the rest of us, we gotta cough it up.  This is a cost many people forget to add into their projections.

[JLE1990]

I can't speak to whether 200/mon is reasonable as I only rent. I was more pointing out the 200 and 80 for frivolous things like lawn care(Buy a cheap mower at a yard sale?).

It cost me ~$300 to buy the fertilizer etc to take care of my lawn (plus the costs of the stuff to maintain it or the gas to run those machines)... on sale. $345/year for termite protection. About another $50/year if I want to spray the yard so I can go outside without getting eaten alive by bugs etc etc

Then there's the whole "I travel for work often" thing (I've spent 2.5 days at home in the past 3 months for example) and suddenly I can't do everything myself and have to pay others to take care of some things at times.

I don't expect you to understand the costs of owning a home if you've never done it. A new roof for my house would run $5-8,000. HVAC replacement runs another $3-4,000. Appliances break. I don't enjoy living in an ugly decrepit home so I keep my landscaping looking nice (if minimalist), the paint not peeling off, the siding not covered in mold, the driveway not a black surface of dirt, etc. etc.     all that stuff costs money, and most aren't really "optional" if you want to take care of your home. FTR - the standard advice for homeowners is to expect ~1% of their home's cost in maintenance each year. My budget reflects that.

As for my food budget, I'm 100% sure I would hate your meal-plan. I could live off it I'm sure, but I'd probably hate it (maybe I'm wrong, do you also have a case of lobster tails in your freezer next to the case of crab legs, behind the whole beef tenderloin?). It is an "outrageous" food budget compared to most people (though I'm guessing it's probably 10% or less of Paris Hilton's food costs for comparison to a "luxurious" budget, and it's certainly much better than the guy I've worked with that spends $4-6k/month eating out with his wife).

Food (and travel, but I didn't actually share my travel expenses, I was afraid you might have a heart condition that couldn't handle it) are the two areas of my life that are anywhere close to "luxurious" imo right now (though I'm still not up to flying first class).

Most of the expenses I listed, however, are pretty much "average" costs a person in their 30's-40's owning a median or so cost home in a LCOL area (my house is 2,200 sq ft and cost $167k for example). 

Water minimum cost $42/month to keep it hooked up (I like water, I'll keep it).
Sewage ~$20/month on average (nope, not even included in the water price).
Trash and recycling $48/month. I prefer to have trash go away from my house, so I'll keep that too.
I'm over your utility bills total cost already and I haven't turned on the electricity or the gas to run the furnace/stove/water heater...... much less started watching TV
Electricity and gas average ~$225/month (one goes up, the other goes down) to keep the house a comfortable 72-74.
TV is another fun one, I could watch NONE and spend $0. I don't like that though, so I have a basic package at the home, but I like to watch shows on the road too so I also have Amazon Prime and Netflix and Hulu. None are necessary, but they bring me more enjoyment than the time needed to work for them produces in the opposite emotion.
Oh, and I need the internet for when I work at home so there's another $75/month. and suddenly I'm at almost $500/month in utilities for the house...


There are MANY things I could do to cut my budget. I could eat foods that aren't what I like. I could not watch the television shows that bring me enjoyment. I could keep my house at a temperature I don't like. I could not take the vacations I enjoy. I could sell my home and live out of a tent without electricity or running water. So many ways to save money. I haven't decided that any of those savings are worth it to me however. I'll stick with just saving my $50-60k/year, retiring quite comfortably in my 40's, and spending my money on the things I enjoy both now and then.

MMM says to spend money on the things that bring you actual enjoyment. I do. You can enjoy your life for less and that's great for you. That doesn't mean I want your life or would enjoy it, or that you would enjoy my life. But we each get to live our own lives.

Also, maybe I missed the requirement to be a hardcore MMM extreme-frugal non-spender in the terms of use of these forums..? Nope, pretty sure it's not there. I enjoy helping out people with my knowledge of finances, economics, and other subjects, as well as providing some perspective to some of the more hard-core members at times.

That's amazing if you are saving 50-60k/year. But that puts your income at around 120k+/year. That puts you in the top 20% of HOUSEHOLDS, so you're making more money than 80% of people, including those where there is two people working. Either you are completely oblivious to how little others in this country(one of the riches in the world) make or you are deliberately being obtuse about what is "normal." Eating lobster fish or whatever you have in your freezer every night is being a baller when 90% of the country and 99% of the rest of the world make less than you. If you are saving 50-60k a year and plan to retire in your 40s than I applaud you absolutely, but to consider yourself "normal" like you stated before just shows a lack of self-awareness at best.

[HBFIRE]

Keep in mind the site referenced is aimed at people in higher income bracket and aiming for higher earning careers.....look at the types of careers/income sources they recommend in their other articles.  These are nowhere close to average types of salaries.  Hence the levels they are recommending to the crowd they are targeting.  After all quickest way to FI is to focus on earnings.

One of the areas they suggest is affiliate marketing, which is what I do, its quite lucrative.

[DreamFIRE]

When I paid health insurance it was more but not huge.

That's the key part right there.  Health insurance is VERY expensive now.  As mentioned, our premium is over 1100/month.  Sounds like you have yours covered though being a vet, which is great.  Unfortunately for the rest of us, we gotta cough it up.  This is a cost many people forget to add into their projections.

Hopefully, most people on this forum aren't forgetting that as frequently as it is mentioned.  I've often mentioned the healthcare cost difference in my pre-FIRE vs. FIRE budget which drops me from around 80X to 65X stache.  I use few healthcare services in a given year, so that's how I have budgeted, but with a large deductible in FIRE (vs. my current plan), if something unusual were to come up, that would drop my 65X even further.  Fortunately, I have a large entertainment/travel/discretionary budget for FIRE, so I could reallocate in a year that I had to pay more out of pocket for healthcare.

[HBFIRE]

True and I readily acknowledge that it is a HUGE thing for my ER and that medical insurance costs can be very prohibitive to91st people looking to FIRE even if able to get big ACA subsidies due to lower income once FIREd.

Yes and I'm not even sure how viable ACA is for now and the future.  I certainly would not plan for it!  I'd assume when planning my early retirement that it won't be there.  Just in case.

[jlcnuke]

That's amazing if you are saving 50-60k/year. But that puts your income at around 120k+/year. That puts you in the top 20% of HOUSEHOLDS, so you're making more money than 80% of people, including those where there is two people working. Either you are completely oblivious to how little others in this country(one of the riches in the world) or you are deliberately being obtuse about what is "normal." Eating lobster fish or whatever you have in your freezer every night is being a baller when 90% of the country and 99% of the rest of the world make less than you. If you are saving 50-60k a year and plan to retire in your 40s than I applaud you absolutely, but to consider yourself "normal" like you stated before just shows a lack of self-awareness at best.

See, you just don't seem to understand what "baller" is.

Baller:
Flies first class when flying (at $600-15k/flight) to stay at 5-star resorts (at $1-10k/night) on the other side of the world for weeks at a time.
Drives a Ferrari with $4k/month car payments.
Owns a boat with similar payments or higher.
Drives another car that also cost 6-figures.
Wears suits that cost $2-10k each.
Does bottle service at the night club in Vegas before continuing the party in their 2 bedroom suite and gamble away whatever they feel like - one week cost of ~$10-100+k
etc etc... that's "baller".  Living much more extravagantly than people in rural China or Nairobi isn't baller in the US, poverty meets that standard.

I know what "normal" is, when I was 19 I was living with a roommate in a crappy apartment making shit money as an enlisted guy in the Navy (pay tables are public, feel free to look up the equivalent of my pay when I enlisted). I've come a long way since then.

"Normal" Americans have car payments and get their cell plans through Verizon or T-mobile and pay for the premium channels on cable while driving their 3-year old -still has 3 years of payments but we're trading it in anyway- car that cost 2/3rds of their annual income while buying the largest home they could find without having their mortgage exceed the 28% rule (or exceeding it, whatever). "Normal" Americans spend 97% of their income after taxes and have next to no tax liability to start with, which is why it's possible for a "normal" American to blow through $4k/month without a problem despite only earning a bit more than that.

[the_fixer]

I can't speak to whether 200/mon is reasonable as I only rent. I was more pointing out the 200 and 80 for frivolous things like lawn care(Buy a cheap mower at a yard sale?).

It cost me ~$300 to buy the fertilizer etc to take care of my lawn (plus the costs of the stuff to maintain it or the gas to run those machines)... on sale. $345/year for termite protection. About another $50/year if I want to spray the yard so I can go outside without getting eaten alive by bugs etc etc

Then there's the whole "I travel for work often" thing (I've spent 2.5 days at home in the past 3 months for example) and suddenly I can't do everything myself and have to pay others to take care of some things at times.

I don't expect you to understand the costs of owning a home if you've never done it. A new roof for my house would run $5-8,000. HVAC replacement runs another $3-4,000. Appliances break. I don't enjoy living in an ugly decrepit home so I keep my landscaping looking nice (if minimalist), the paint not peeling off, the siding not covered in mold, the driveway not a black surface of dirt, etc. etc.     all that stuff costs money, and most aren't really "optional" if you want to take care of your home. FTR - the standard advice for homeowners is to expect ~1% of their home's cost in maintenance each year. My budget reflects that.

As for my food budget, I'm 100% sure I would hate your meal-plan. I could live off it I'm sure, but I'd probably hate it (maybe I'm wrong, do you also have a case of lobster tails in your freezer next to the case of crab legs, behind the whole beef tenderloin?). It is an "outrageous" food budget compared to most people (though I'm guessing it's probably 10% or less of Paris Hilton's food costs for comparison to a "luxurious" budget, and it's certainly much better than the guy I've worked with that spends $4-6k/month eating out with his wife).

Food (and travel, but I didn't actually share my travel expenses, I was afraid you might have a heart condition that couldn't handle it) are the two areas of my life that are anywhere close to "luxurious" imo right now (though I'm still not up to flying first class).

Most of the expenses I listed, however, are pretty much "average" costs a person in their 30's-40's owning a median or so cost home in a LCOL area (my house is 2,200 sq ft and cost $167k for example). 

Water minimum cost $42/month to keep it hooked up (I like water, I'll keep it).
Sewage ~$20/month on average (nope, not even included in the water price).
Trash and recycling $48/month. I prefer to have trash go away from my house, so I'll keep that too.
I'm over your utility bills total cost already and I haven't turned on the electricity or the gas to run the furnace/stove/water heater...... much less started watching TV
Electricity and gas average ~$225/month (one goes up, the other goes down) to keep the house a comfortable 72-74.
TV is another fun one, I could watch NONE and spend $0. I don't like that though, so I have a basic package at the home, but I like to watch shows on the road too so I also have Amazon Prime and Netflix and Hulu. None are necessary, but they bring me more enjoyment than the time needed to work for them produces in the opposite emotion.
Oh, and I need the internet for when I work at home so there's another $75/month. and suddenly I'm at almost $500/month in utilities for the house...


There are MANY things I could do to cut my budget. I could eat foods that aren't what I like. I could not watch the television shows that bring me enjoyment. I could keep my house at a temperature I don't like. I could not take the vacations I enjoy. I could sell my home and live out of a tent without electricity or running water. So many ways to save money. I haven't decided that any of those savings are worth it to me however. I'll stick with just saving my $50-60k/year, retiring quite comfortably in my 40's, and spending my money on the things I enjoy both now and then.

MMM says to spend money on the things that bring you actual enjoyment. I do. You can enjoy your life for less and that's great for you. That doesn't mean I want your life or would enjoy it, or that you would enjoy my life. But we each get to live our own lives.

Also, maybe I missed the requirement to be a hardcore MMM extreme-frugal non-spender in the terms of use of these forums..? Nope, pretty sure it's not there. I enjoy helping out people with my knowledge of finances, economics, and other subjects, as well as providing some perspective to some of the more hard-core members at times.

I would think you were trolling us if it we're not for the fact that you have been a member since 2016.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[nereo]

I can't speak to whether 200/mon is reasonable as I only rent. I was more pointing out the 200 and 80 for frivolous things like lawn care(Buy a cheap mower at a yard sale?).

It cost me ~$300 to buy the fertilizer etc to take care of my lawn (plus the costs of the stuff to maintain it or the gas to run those machines)... on sale. $345/year for termite protection. About another $50/year if I want to spray the yard so I can go outside without getting eaten alive by bugs etc etc

Then there's the whole "I travel for work often" thing (I've spent 2.5 days at home in the past 3 months for example) and suddenly I can't do everything myself and have to pay others to take care of some things at times.

I don't expect you to understand the costs of owning a home if you've never done it. A new roof for my house would run $5-8,000. HVAC replacement runs another $3-4,000. Appliances break. I don't enjoy living in an ugly decrepit home so I keep my landscaping looking nice (if minimalist), the paint not peeling off, the siding not covered in mold, the driveway not a black surface of dirt, etc. etc.     all that stuff costs money, and most aren't really "optional" if you want to take care of your home. FTR - the standard advice for homeowners is to expect ~1% of their home's cost in maintenance each year. My budget reflects that.

As for my food budget, I'm 100% sure I would hate your meal-plan. I could live off it I'm sure, but I'd probably hate it (maybe I'm wrong, do you also have a case of lobster tails in your freezer next to the case of crab legs, behind the whole beef tenderloin?). It is an "outrageous" food budget compared to most people (though I'm guessing it's probably 10% or less of Paris Hilton's food costs for comparison to a "luxurious" budget, and it's certainly much better than the guy I've worked with that spends $4-6k/month eating out with his wife).

Food (and travel, but I didn't actually share my travel expenses, I was afraid you might have a heart condition that couldn't handle it) are the two areas of my life that are anywhere close to "luxurious" imo right now (though I'm still not up to flying first class).

Most of the expenses I listed, however, are pretty much "average" costs a person in their 30's-40's owning a median or so cost home in a LCOL area (my house is 2,200 sq ft and cost $167k for example). 

Water minimum cost $42/month to keep it hooked up (I like water, I'll keep it).
Sewage ~$20/month on average (nope, not even included in the water price).
Trash and recycling $48/month. I prefer to have trash go away from my house, so I'll keep that too.
I'm over your utility bills total cost already and I haven't turned on the electricity or the gas to run the furnace/stove/water heater...... much less started watching TV
Electricity and gas average ~$225/month (one goes up, the other goes down) to keep the house a comfortable 72-74.
TV is another fun one, I could watch NONE and spend $0. I don't like that though, so I have a basic package at the home, but I like to watch shows on the road too so I also have Amazon Prime and Netflix and Hulu. None are necessary, but they bring me more enjoyment than the time needed to work for them produces in the opposite emotion.
Oh, and I need the internet for when I work at home so there's another $75/month. and suddenly I'm at almost $500/month in utilities for the house...


There are MANY things I could do to cut my budget. I could eat foods that aren't what I like. I could not watch the television shows that bring me enjoyment. I could keep my house at a temperature I don't like. I could not take the vacations I enjoy. I could sell my home and live out of a tent without electricity or running water. So many ways to save money. I haven't decided that any of those savings are worth it to me however. I'll stick with just saving my $50-60k/year, retiring quite comfortably in my 40's, and spending my money on the things I enjoy both now and then.

MMM says to spend money on the things that bring you actual enjoyment. I do. You can enjoy your life for less and that's great for you. That doesn't mean I want your life or would enjoy it, or that you would enjoy my life. But we each get to live our own lives.

Also, maybe I missed the requirement to be a hardcore MMM extreme-frugal non-spender in the terms of use of these forums..? Nope, pretty sure it's not there. I enjoy helping out people with my knowledge of finances, economics, and other subjects, as well as providing some perspective to some of the more hard-core members at times.

I would think you were trolling us if it we're not for the fact that you have been a member since 2016.

Wow.  Just... wow. 

[FiveSigmas]

Why are we debating what it means to live a "baller" life on a frugality forum?

Isn't that a bit like arguing over the yummiest brand of bacon on a vegan website?

[JLee]

LOL, I left for a while and alllll sorts of stuff happened!

If you think a roof for your 2200sq ft house is only going to run you $5k, I have some bad news for you.  Mayyybe if you have a tiny roof and all your square footage is gained via multiple floors..

I have been quoted from $8700 to $11k and my house is in an inexpensive area with a very simple (nearly flat) roof.

You're right - I probably wouldn't enjoy your life. Being home a couple days a month (or worse) does not sound like fun at all.

[bacchi]

Note to self: Figure out amortized costs of housing expenses over the past 15 years.

I've replaced the siding, some floor joists, HVAC, wiring, roof, and of course appliances. The only thing I haven't done is replaced the original cast iron plumbing. It's due; oh, it's due.

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$300 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$100 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

[inline five]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

[nereo]

I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

The hedonistic treadmill at work.
What is currently a median-income's worth in spending seems like just scraping by to some. This level of spending (adjusted for inflation) would have been the realm of the upper-middle class just a few decades ago (circa 1970s).

Makes me wonder what a 'normal' budget might look like in 2018 dollars a few decades from now. Will the trend continue?

[MrUpwardlyMobile]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Those numbers are low for the gym membership, maid service, and lawn care service.  Those vacations sound a bit lame.  Far better to take 4 $3,000 vacations ;-D.  That said, your point is pretty spot on.

[JLee]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

You're right, it doesn't say "bare bones." It says "bare minimum."

including only what is most basic or necessary

as low as possible

Doesn't change much.

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Those numbers are low for the gym membership, maid service, and lawn care service.  Those vacations sound a bit lame.  Far better to take 4 $3,000 vacations ;-D.  That said, your point is pretty spot on.

I live in Louisville, KY and there is a popular gym called "Planet Fitness for $20 a month. Free unlimited guests, tanning, steam room etc.
Lawn care is more like $100, accidentally put weekly there.

Still hits right at $4,000 a month. If I were to follow this budget, I feel like I would just be throwing money away, couldn't imagine trying to spend $10,000 a month...

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

2) Maid service, lawn care service, charity, gym memberships, PLUS over $2,000 a month on vacations, buying random widgets, going out to eat is the minimum for a comfortable lifestyle for you? This budget couldn't be anymore anti-MMM. Very surprised someone on that belongs to this forum would have a response like that.

[inline five]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

You're right, it doesn't say "bare bones." It says "bare minimum."

including only what is most basic or necessary

as low as possible

Doesn't change much.

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

[inline five]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

2) Maid service, lawn care service, charity, gym memberships, PLUS over $2,000 a month on vacations, buying random widgets, going out to eat is the minimum for a comfortable lifestyle for you? This budget couldn't be anymore anti-MMM. Very surprised someone on that belongs to this forum would have a response like that.

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

You're right, it doesn't say "bare bones." It says "bare minimum."

including only what is most basic or necessary

as low as possible

Doesn't change much.

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

You are missing the point.  You are stating that this minimum lifestyle you want to live includes:

Spending a year EVERY year for 30 plus years:
Vacation: $12,000
Charity: $1,200
Maid Service: $1,200
Lawn Care: $1,200
New Clothes: $2,400
Random Nonsense Purchases: $3,000
Gym: $240
Eating Out: $3,000
Non Vacation Entertainment: $4,200

How is this living a frugal lifestyle? I literally couldn't spend this much money on myself if I tried.

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

2) Maid service, lawn care service, charity, gym memberships, PLUS over $2,000 a month on vacations, buying random widgets, going out to eat is the minimum for a comfortable lifestyle for you? This budget couldn't be anymore anti-MMM. Very surprised someone on that belongs to this forum would have a response like that.

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

Let's go a different route. Without a car/house payment in a NON HCOLA, please breakdown $4,000 a month for a single person. And.... go!

[nereo]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I personally don't see the difference in a lifestyle called 'bare bones' or 'bare minimum'. Obviously the level is subjective to the author/reader, and for both the operative word is "bare".
I've heard many on refer to these interchangable (e.g. "this is what we consider our bare bones / bare-minimum expenses).  It's rarely so low that people can't live comfortably.

To each their own I guess but I don't think RookieStash was subverting the meaning of the article by exchanging 'bare bones' for 'bare minimum' in this context.

[inline five]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

You're right, it doesn't say "bare bones." It says "bare minimum."

including only what is most basic or necessary

as low as possible

Doesn't change much.

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

You are missing the point.  You are stating that this minimum lifestyle you want to live includes:

Spending a year EVERY year for 30 plus years:
Vacation: $12,000
Charity: $1,200
Maid Service: $1,200
Lawn Care: $1,200
New Clothes: $2,400
Random Nonsense Purchases: $3,000
Gym: $240
Eating Out: $3,000
Non Vacation Entertainment: $4,200

How is this living a frugal lifestyle? I literally couldn't spend this much money on myself if I tried.

I'm seriously in disbelief right now. It's NOT a a frugal lifestyle, that was the ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT THE AUTHOR WROTE.

[inline five]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I personally don't see the difference in a lifestyle called 'bare bones' or 'bare minimum'. Obviously the level is subjective to the author/reader, and for both the operative word is "bare".
I've heard many on refer to these interchangable (e.g. "this is what we consider our bare bones / bare-minimum expenses).  It's rarely so low that people can't live comfortably.

To each their own I guess but I don't think RookieStash was subverting the meaning of the article by exchanging 'bare bones' for 'bare minimum' in this context.

It's a bare minimum to LIVE A COMFORTABLE LIFESTYLE, according to the author, which I agree with.

You *do* realize there was more to that sentence past "bare minimum", right?

[nereo]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

[inline five]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

2) Maid service, lawn care service, charity, gym memberships, PLUS over $2,000 a month on vacations, buying random widgets, going out to eat is the minimum for a comfortable lifestyle for you? This budget couldn't be anymore anti-MMM. Very surprised someone on that belongs to this forum would have a response like that.

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

Let's go a different route. Without a car/house payment in a NON HCOLA, please breakdown $4,000 a month for a single person. And.... go!

The gentleman above did it fairly well.

We have been living frugal lifestyles for 15 years, trust me when I say it gets old and eventually you want to move on and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

I don't mean go out and buy a luxury car brand new but living like we are paycheck to paycheck even with a decent sum in the bank isn't how we want to live for the next 40 years.

I like doing lawn mx but having a maid service would be absolutely luxurious and awesome and not cost very much money, for example.

[inline five]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

[JLee]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

I'm too attached to my Lexus and 500hp mid-engine sports car to live in a van by the river, but thanks for the assumption!

[inline five]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

I'm too attached to my Lexus and 500hp mid-engine sports car to live in a van by the river, but thanks for the assumption!

Well as I stated MMM has been spending well above that level now as well, so maybe he should leave too, or change his name, or whatever. The concept lost on you guys is the initial spending levels, the famed $2k+housing, are just initial and meant to get you to FI asap. This spending level, $4k including housing, really isn't too far off from that to be ridiculously unreasonable.

Where did I say you live in a van down by the river?

[JLee]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

I'm too attached to my Lexus and 500hp mid-engine sports car to live in a van by the river, but thanks for the assumption!

Well as I stated MMM has been spending well above that level now as well, so maybe he should leave too, or change his name, or whatever. The concept lost on you guys is the initial spending levels, the famed $2k+housing, are just initial and meant to get you to FI asap. This spending level, $4k including housing, really isn't too far off from that to be ridiculously unreasonable.

Where did I say you live in a van down by the river?

Read your post - the implication is clear.

If you feel that as a single person, you need to spend what the median household earns annually in order to live a "decent" lifestyle, more power to you, I guess? Gotta keep that economy rolling!

[nereo]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

[inline five]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

I'm too attached to my Lexus and 500hp mid-engine sports car to live in a van by the river, but thanks for the assumption!

Well as I stated MMM has been spending well above that level now as well, so maybe he should leave too, or change his name, or whatever. The concept lost on you guys is the initial spending levels, the famed $2k+housing, are just initial and meant to get you to FI asap. This spending level, $4k including housing, really isn't too far off from that to be ridiculously unreasonable.

Where did I say you live in a van down by the river?

Read your post - the implication is clear.

If you feel that as a single person, you need to spend what the median household earns annually in order to live a "decent" lifestyle, more power to you, I guess? Gotta keep that economy rolling!

Going from single to two person household only increases spending slightly, such as food consumption. Most of the high ticket living costs are fixed. So this hammering on how this is a high amount for a single person is kinda a deflection from the overall point of the article.

[inline five]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

[RookieStache]

You are arguing what the author of the article considers bare minimum to live a decent lifestyle. Why? That is his opinion and you have yours. Personally I agree with the author and not you. I'm not interested in living a "bare minimum" lifestyle in a van down by the river, or freezing in my house, or going for walks every single day for 40 years to kill time.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

I'm too attached to my Lexus and 500hp mid-engine sports car to live in a van by the river, but thanks for the assumption!

Well as I stated MMM has been spending well above that level now as well, so maybe he should leave too, or change his name, or whatever. The concept lost on you guys is the initial spending levels, the famed $2k+housing, are just initial and meant to get you to FI asap. This spending level, $4k including housing, really isn't too far off from that to be ridiculously unreasonable.

Where did I say you live in a van down by the river?

Read your post - the implication is clear.

If you feel that as a single person, you need to spend what the median household earns annually in order to live a "decent" lifestyle, more power to you, I guess? Gotta keep that economy rolling!

Going from single to two person household only increases spending slightly, such as food consumption. Most of the high ticket living costs are fixed. So this hammering on how this is a high amount for a single person is kinda a deflection from the overall point of the article.

What "fixed high ticket living costs" are we speaking of? If a logical person were to retire early, they would most likely have all debts paid off, including housing. What high ticket items are left, a $250 property tax?

[HBFIRE]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to

The article is explicitly including housing costs in the equation.  Obviously removing this changes things a lot.  As a side note, there are very good reasons to have housing costs going into retirement.

[nereo]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Because this is a prototypical budget for someone earning $72k per year.  They pay taxes, they (hopefully) put at least something away as savings.  What they are left with is what they spend. 
In case you missed it, the 'bare minimum' budget being discussed is akin to a single person earning $72k/year. 
I reject the notion that we should consider such a person living a lifestyle which is the bare minimum to be comfortable. That's contrary to my own experiences and this forum and the fact that he/she would be well above the median household income.

Of course you wouldn't include the $12k/month. If you wanted you could take a hypothetical individual earning $85k/year but saving $17.5k in retirement accounts.  Or you could use an individual making $67k/year and saving absolutely nothing (spending his/her entire paycheck each month().  None of those incomes should be considered the bare minimum to live a comfortable lifestyle in a non-HCOL area.

[RookieStache]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to

The article is explicitly including housing costs in the equation.  Obviously removing this changes things a lot.  As a side note, there are very good reasons to have housing costs going into retirement.

Could you explain, could be a learning experience for me here. Please exclude 15 vs 30 year mortgage debate as we would be assuming someone paid the house off at a 30 year fixed rate with no accelerated payments.

[inline five]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Because this is a prototypical budget for someone earning $72k per year.  They pay taxes, they (hopefully) put at least something away as savings.  What they are left with is what they spend. 
In case you missed it, the 'bare minimum' budget being discussed is akin to a single person earning $72k/year. 
I reject the notion that we should consider such a person living a lifestyle which is the bare minimum to be comfortable. That's contrary to my own experiences and this forum and the fact that he/she would be well above the median household income.

Of course you wouldn't include the $12k/month. If you wanted you could take a hypothetical individual earning $85k/year but saving $17.5k in retirement accounts.  Or you could use an individual making $67k/year and saving absolutely nothing (spending his/her entire paycheck each month().  None of those incomes should be considered the bare minimum to live a comfortable lifestyle in a non-HCOL area.

Dude you've lost me. The retired guy living his life pays minimal taxes and saves nothing. He's not taking $72k out of his account every year. Just drop it.

[JLee]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Because this is a prototypical budget for someone earning $72k per year.  They pay taxes, they (hopefully) put at least something away as savings.  What they are left with is what they spend. 
In case you missed it, the 'bare minimum' budget being discussed is akin to a single person earning $72k/year. 
I reject the notion that we should consider such a person living a lifestyle which is the bare minimum to be comfortable. That's contrary to my own experiences and this forum and the fact that he/she would be well above the median household income.

Of course you wouldn't include the $12k/month. If you wanted you could take a hypothetical individual earning $85k/year but saving $17.5k in retirement accounts.  Or you could use an individual making $67k/year and saving absolutely nothing (spending his/her entire paycheck each month().  None of those incomes should be considered the bare minimum to live a comfortable lifestyle in a non-HCOL area.

Dude you've lost me. The retired guy living his life pays minimal taxes and saves nothing. He's not taking $72k out of his account every year. Just drop it.

You are missing the point - you insist that a decent life requires a $4k/mo spend. That's more than the median household income if every penny was spent and nothing was saved. Basically, according to you the median household is unable to live a decent lifestyle even if they spend every penny they earn.

People on this forum disagree with your minimum standards for a "decent" lifestyle, and your lack of comprehension does not render the point invalid.

[nereo]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to

The article is explicitly including housing costs in the equation.  Obviously removing this changes things a lot.  As a side note, there are very good reasons to have housing costs going into retirement.

Could you explain, could be a learning experience for me here. Please exclude 15 vs 30 year mortgage debate as we would be assuming someone paid the house off at a 30 year fixed rate with no accelerated payments.

have fun reading it:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/paying-off-mortgage-early-how-bad-is-it-for-your-fi-date/

tl;dr: For those of us with a fixed mortgage under 4% it is highly probable that over long time scales (15-30 years) they will be financially better off than if they used excess funds to pay off the mortgage faster.  Inflation plays a big factor into this, as does the historical rates of return in the market.

[HBFIRE]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to

The article is explicitly including housing costs in the equation.  Obviously removing this changes things a lot.  As a side note, there are very good reasons to have housing costs going into retirement.

Could you explain, could be a learning experience for me here. Please exclude 15 vs 30 year mortgage debate as we would be assuming someone paid the house off at a 30 year fixed rate with no accelerated payments.

There are many reasons to have a mortgage going into retirement.   It works out to be much better mathematically with a moderate amount of risk.   I won't go into it here as it's been covered extensively on these forums.  I don't want to get too far off topic.  Just do a search.  The main advantages are -- keeping  your investment stache higher and hence getting a much better return than paying off house, tax deductions, stache is better protected against inflation due to portion of costs being wrapped in fixed mortgage.

That said, even having RENT going into retirement can be very advantageous.  Check this out for further reading:  https://www.gocurrycracker.com/renters-for-life/

[nereo]

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Because this is a prototypical budget for someone earning $72k per year.  They pay taxes, they (hopefully) put at least something away as savings.  What they are left with is what they spend. 
In case you missed it, the 'bare minimum' budget being discussed is akin to a single person earning $72k/year. 
I reject the notion that we should consider such a person living a lifestyle which is the bare minimum to be comfortable. That's contrary to my own experiences and this forum and the fact that he/she would be well above the median household income.

Of course you wouldn't include the $12k/month. If you wanted you could take a hypothetical individual earning $85k/year but saving $17.5k in retirement accounts.  Or you could use an individual making $67k/year and saving absolutely nothing (spending his/her entire paycheck each month().  None of those incomes should be considered the bare minimum to live a comfortable lifestyle in a non-HCOL area.

Dude you've lost me. The retired guy living his life pays minimal taxes and saves nothing. He's not taking $72k out of his account every year. Just drop it.

A person earning $72k/year ultimately spends $4k/mo with the assumptions outlined above. This income is above the median for US households.
This is the same as someone who is retired and has no income, but spends $4k/month
The spending is the same for these two individuals.

Neither should be considered a bare-minimum budget for comfortable living.
In reality the retired person is even more luxurious, as he/she is not paying work expenses (commuting, work wardrobe, etc).

You might want to go back and re-read the comments, then ask questions about what you don't understand.

[inline five]

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

The reason I have such a hard time swallowing this argument is that the amount spent ($4000/mo in a non-HCOL area) exceeds the median budget for a solidly middle class family.  This is for one person. If we accept anything under $4000/mo for a single person as extreme frugality we're basically saying that a typical middle class family cannot have a comfortable lifestyle.  I call BS on that notion - in part because my family spends substantially less each month and we live what I'd consider a very comfortable lifestyle.

IMO $4k/month income is on the low end for middle class for a family with little in the name of savings. In most areas that is going to put you pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. Nowhere did anyone say under $4k is EXTRMEME FRUGALITY, now you are just making stuff up.

You got that wrong - it's not income, it's spending. $4k/mo spending = $48k/year.  To equate that to a working household, that's Income - (taxes + retirement contributions + savings).  To keep it simple let's just talk about singles here.

An individual (single filer) earning $72k/year and contributing *only* $458/mo to his/her IRA would have a monthly take-home of about $4k/month*

The argument being made is that this person is somehow living the bare minimum for a comfortable lifestyle.  That's where I call BS. This hypothetical individual earns more than ~59% of households. By definition that's middle class (slightly above, given the percentile and the single status).

*taxes on a $72 income would roughly be: -$913federal/372FICA/87Medicare/162State.

I'm not sure why you are bringing savings into this. Someone who has retired and is now living off of the income is no longer saving.

We save around $12k/month. When we retire will we have to include that in our monthly budget? No of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Because this is a prototypical budget for someone earning $72k per year.  They pay taxes, they (hopefully) put at least something away as savings.  What they are left with is what they spend. 
In case you missed it, the 'bare minimum' budget being discussed is akin to a single person earning $72k/year. 
I reject the notion that we should consider such a person living a lifestyle which is the bare minimum to be comfortable. That's contrary to my own experiences and this forum and the fact that he/she would be well above the median household income.

Of course you wouldn't include the $12k/month. If you wanted you could take a hypothetical individual earning $85k/year but saving $17.5k in retirement accounts.  Or you could use an individual making $67k/year and saving absolutely nothing (spending his/her entire paycheck each month().  None of those incomes should be considered the bare minimum to live a comfortable lifestyle in a non-HCOL area.

Dude you've lost me. The retired guy living his life pays minimal taxes and saves nothing. He's not taking $72k out of his account every year. Just drop it.

You are missing the point - you insist that a decent life requires a $4k/mo spend. That's more than the median household income if every penny was spent and nothing was saved. Basically, according to you the median household is unable to live a decent lifestyle even if they spend every penny they earn.

People on this forum disagree with your minimum standards for a "decent" lifestyle, and your lack of comprehension does not render the point invalid.

I'm not missing the point. The median income is around $60k pretax and $50k post tax. This entire website is devoted to not living like the average American. I would say the average American lives a pretty comfortable lifestyle. House, newer cars not my 23 year old POS, goes on vacations yearly vs what my wife and I pass for vacations, does leisure activities, etc, doesn't freeze in their house to save money on electric costs, etc.

[HBFIRE]

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

They can be.  But not in the context of this article.  It explicitly states:

"We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life without coupon clipping. "

In other words, bare bones would be necessity.  Bare minimum, in the context of this article, is the bare minimum they consider to live a comfortable life.

[JLE1990]

Many posters are replying with what they are currently spending money on. If I were to retire early, I would make damn sure that I had no car/house payments. If I were a single person NOT in a HCOLA, I would have to try awfully hard to fork out $4,000 a month every month for 30 years. We are also forgetting that the article is stating that this is bare bones (IE: can afford bills but not much more)

Property Taxes: $250
Utilities / Cable / Internet / ETC: $500
Gas: $100
Groceries: $$400
Home/Car Maintenance / ETC: $450
Medical: Maxed HSA Funds

$1,700 a month! I would argue even the list above exceeds bare bones as I have listed cable and a hefty home maintenance fund.

Let's add in the following:

$250: Eating Out / Starbucks
$350 Entertainment
$20 Gym Membership
$200 New Clothes
$250 Random Amazon splurges
$25 Lawn Care Service
$100 Maid Service Once a month
$100 Charity
$1,000 Vacation (12 $1,000 vacations, 6 $2,000 vacations....)


I tried my best guys, still couldn't hit $4,000. There is something wrong with America if the lifestyle listed above is bare bones...

Directly from the article

"Bare Minimum – $4,000 a Month: We’re not interested in the frugality crowd. Their lifestyles are not attractive (double entendre). As a single person, it takes a bare minimum of $4,000 a month to live a decent life"

Nowhere does it say "bare bones".

What you posted as your second "budget" actually looks pretty close to what I would also consider a minimum to live a comfy lifestyle.

1) Bare Minimum / bare bones are synonyms good sir/mam.

2) Maid service, lawn care service, charity, gym memberships, PLUS over $2,000 a month on vacations, buying random widgets, going out to eat is the minimum for a comfortable lifestyle for you? This budget couldn't be anymore anti-MMM. Very surprised someone on that belongs to this forum would have a response like that.

IIIRC MMM spent $80k last year so sounds like it's pretty reasonable to me as far as comfortable lifestyles go.

It specifically says they aren't interested in being frugal. Why can't you guys accept that?

Where did you get that our Dear Leader spends 80k/year?? He specifically made an article about how his spending has not gone up since he started the blog. Did you just read the title where he said he was spending 256k a year now that he was raking in money from the blog?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/01/mmm-spending-2015/

I really don't understand why you're posting on this article. I'm not saying you should leave the forum but if the stated ethos of this forum is about frugality(and you know that) why would you comment on an article about gluttony and opulence that we're making fun of(this post really should've been in the anti-mustachian section) and say that the author is being reasonable?
The 4k that you are talking about is considered barebones if you read the article. They are recommending that people get a job that pays more than 10k a month and spend ALL OF THAT!
You can make up all the bullshit and logical fallacies that you'd like but if you are spending 4k/mon and you are a normal single or married person, YOU ARE LIVING AN ABSURDLY LUXURIOUS LIFE!
If you are aware and wanted to keep doing that, great, but don't post on here and try to pretend that 4k/mon is "normal" or barebones, or bare minimum.

To take your point about it being the net pay of $72k a year, the average family median income is 59k/year. Assuming that family gets more tax breaks etc., you are spending more than 2.5 Americans, that's an accomplishment, congrats.

[HBFIRE]

They are recommending that people get a job that pays more than 10k a month and spend ALL OF THAT!

Ah, I see.  You misread the article.  This is what they consider the levels of financial independence, not what one should spend while building up a portfolio.  Now I see why you keep comparing it to median incomes.

[nereo]

I'm not missing the point. The median income is around $60k pretax and $50k post tax. This entire website is devoted to not living like the average American. I would say the average American lives a pretty comfortable lifestyle. House, newer cars not my 23 year old POS, goes on vacations yearly vs what my wife and I pass for vacations, does leisure activities, etc, doesn't freeze in their house to save money on electric costs, etc.

Then I have no idea what you are trying to assert here.  If the average American lives a pretty comfortable lifestyle, and if the 'bare-minimum' budget proposed by the article is far HIGHER than what the average American spends, then the conclusion we draw is that this "bare-minimum' budget is far higher than a comfortable lifestyle.

We have all the things you mentioned (newer cars,  yearly vacations, we have hobbies and don't freeze in our homes even when its well below freezing outside) and we spend far, far less than $4k/mo.