POLL: Should the government mandate facial protection in crowded places ?

[darkadams00]

Great news in the county where I live in Florida.
Our Mayor Demings just made masks mandatory in Orange County because our Governor DeSantis doesn't have the balls to do it. Good for Mayor Demings. I know its hard to enforce but if enough people are wearing masks, maybe we can public shame on people that don't comply. I hope mayors in other counties will follow suit. We all want to resume normal lives. It can start if we all just comply and protect our fellow citizens. I hope this is picking up steam for all of the US.

Still perplexed as to why our leaders aren't being more proactive.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out a simple face mask will reduce the transmission.
Look at Italy, they had the biggest crisis. Their government mandated masks in all public transportation and inside stores beginning of May and their rates have dropped significantly.

How does your graph support your claim? Italy showed a peak in early March with a consistent decrease thereafter. If the mask mandate did not occur until early May, then did it really accelerate the decline beyond the rate it was already falling?

[Shane]

It's funny, in a sad sort of way, to watch them pull down their masks in order to take a hit off the joint, then put their masks back on.

I know, right?  Edibles seem like the more appropriate choice while wearing a mask.

Yeah, if only we lived in a state where recreational cannabis was legal, edibles would be a logical, safer choice.

[LennStar]

but excluded children < 12 which pretty much includes all elementary-aged children. By that logic, any conversation about implementing masks for elementary students should certainly be off the table now, but there are still heated, board-level conversations about masks for all students in the fall. Posters here can argue about medically helpful/not helpful as much as they wish, but what I'm seeing is simply this--inconsistent and inexplicable decisions and rationale

I don't see what is consistent or inexplicable here.
Children of a certain age will never hold the distance needed or do things like not taking off the mask for any lengthy amount of time.
That is why ordering children to wear masks is (nearly) useless and the cost/benefit of it (including psychological) is considered a bad one.

Of course you could use this argument to say "In the US there should be no mandatory mask wearing because a large amount of people would not adhere to it", but it would be you who said a large percentage of Americans have not more reason and mindfulness than little children...

How does your graph support your claim? Italy showed a peak in early March with a consistent decrease thereafter. If the mask mandate did not occur until early May, then did it really accelerate the decline beyond the rate it was already falling?

I don't know about masks, but in early march Italy made a real shotdown. Like people not allowed to leave their house. Enforced by the army, who also carried off the dead in their big army trucks (but of course those pictures are a liberal hoax too!).

Based on the experience of Italy, the other EU countries also enacted measures.
I for example got my official "Home Office only" order from my company on the 24th. That was just 3 weeks after the first confirmed spread of the virus in Germany. If you wanted to travel to the office, you would need a "permit" from the company stating that you can't do your job from home.
No meeting with people outside your family (more than one at a time), leave home only if necessary (work, shopping, doctors). Masks.

Today Germany has less death from the whole time than the US has per day. With a month more of strict rules, we could maybe have succceeded in eliminating the virus in our country. But alas, people and "the economy". Let's see if we get a second wave or scratch by.

The only two countries that didn't do that stuff were UK and Sweden. Sweden has the highest per-head rate of death now. UK is a mess.

[totoro]

There really should be no need for anecdotes or debate.  Masks, along with social distancing and hand washing/sanitation, work to reduce Covid community transmission.  This is really clear now.  They should be worn in places like grocery stores.  Not so necessary outside where distance can be maintained.

Perhaps prior to posting or prognosticating based on non-scientific observations it would be good to read this comprehensive review of the science on this: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#%20

As far as the other arguments against:

1. Children won't wear masks.  Response - Children over the age of six are mandated to wear masks in many European and Asian countries - and do.
2. People wear masks incorrectly.  Response - Public education campaign.  It is really easy to wear a mask correctly - like four steps to remember.
3. Breathing problems.  Response - Stay at home as much as possible. Wear a face shield instead, they are readily available now and provide better protection from getting Covid too.
4. Mandatory is government overreach - Response - It is a public health issue not a "personal choice" issue.  If people think it is discretionary a lot won't do this until there are high local infection rates and this impacts other people in an easily preventable manner.

I don't understand the push back myself.  At the very least it seems to be a matter of common courtesy to others.


 

[OtherJen]

There really should be no need for anecdotes or debate.  Masks, along with social distancing and hand washing/sanitation, work to reduce Covid community transmission.  This is really clear now.  They should be worn in places like grocery stores.  Not so necessary outside where distance can be maintained.

Perhaps prior to posting or prognosticating based on non-scientific observations it would be good to read this comprehensive review of the science on this: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#%20

As far as the other arguments against:

1. Children won't wear masks.  Response - Children over the age of six are mandated to wear masks in many European and Asian countries - and do.
2. People wear masks incorrectly.  Response - Public education campaign.  It is really easy to wear a mask correctly - like four steps to remember.
3. Breathing problems.  Response - Stay at home as much as possible. Wear a face shield instead, they are readily available now and provide better protection from getting Covid too.
4. Mandatory is government overreach - Response - It is a public health issue not a "personal choice" issue.  If people think it is discretionary a lot won't do this until there are high local infection rates and this impacts other people in an easily preventable manner.

I don't understand the push back myself.  At the very least it seems to be a matter of common courtesy to others.

Re: children and masks, my SIL had a friend make masks using superhero fabric and then told my niece and nephew (7 and 5) that the masks were “ninja masks.” Worked like a charm. At that age, they’re also old enough to understand that if everyone wears a mask, fewer people will get sick.

[Laserjet3051]

What’re your thoughts about smoking on airplanes? Maybe people just shouldn’t fly if they’re uncomfortable with letting others do what they want?

How do you feel about shitting in a swimming pool? Maybe you shouldn’t go swimming if you’re uncomfortable letting others decide whether they want to shit or not.

How do you feel about residential speed limits? Maybe you should just stay inside if you’re uncomfortable in the streets around your house.

The difference with mandated mask wearing is that everyone is assumed to be sick and treated accordingly. A more apt comparison would be something like "We're making you wear a butt plug if you want to swim, because you might be one of those people who craps in the pool". 99% of the people don't crap in the pool (are healthy) 99% of the time, but everyone has to wear a butt plug (a mask) on the off chance someone craps in the pool (is actually infectious). That's what I object to. Now should you go in the pool if your intestines have been rumbling all day? No. Would I be willing to wear a butt plug to the pool on the off chance I suddenly develop explosive diarrhea? No, lol. Would you?

[Edit: I am not familiar with the particulars of butt plugs and don't care to be, so if there is a specific detail that's wrong - maybe butt plugs make diarrhea more likely - I do not need that information. For the sake of argument, let butt plugs work the way one would assume they do.]

But as to your questions, in all seriousness - once in a great while, someone is going to crap in the pool, rules or not, intentionally or not. Stuff happens. There are rules against peeing in the pool and my understanding is that people, especially kids, do that fairly frequently. It's difficult to enforce so it doesn't get enforced. If you are utterly terrified of that to the point where you don't want to take that risk, then yes, you should not go to the pool. There is no way to quash the risk entirely. You either live with it and go swimming or you don't.

#1 - I'd be fine with smoking planes and non-smoking planes. I'm old enough to remember "smoking or non-smoking?" when we'd book hotel rooms.
#3 - I don't think there are any speed limit signs in my neighborhood (if there are I haven't noticed), nor are there any lines painted. People self-govern and seem to get along fine.

Did you just actually used "crapping in the pool" as a comparison to spreading a deadly disease ??
Last time I checked, if you crap in the pool while I'm in it, there is 100% chance I won't die. Can you say that if you pass the virus on to me ??

What if the crapper had c.diff?  Then it's not 100% anymore.

Fair point. If the excrement ejected into the pool contained Clostridium difficile it could prove fatal to an unknowing infectee.  Thus, if as a society, we insist on risk-free public interactions, I'm afraid that the mandating of butt plugs in pools may gain significant traction and political support.

[totoro]

Fair point. If the excrement ejected into the pool contained Clostridium difficile it could prove fatal to an unknowing infectee.  Thus, if as a society, we insist on risk-free public interactions, I'm afraid that the mandating of butt plugs in pools may gain significant traction and political support.

It is not about being risk-free, it is about reasonable mitigation of a significant and widespread risk during a declared pandemic. 

Pools have to conform to public health sanitation standards based on reasonable risk mitigation, not mitigation risks that are not reasonably foreseeable.

[scottish]

but excluded children < 12 which pretty much includes all elementary-aged children. By that logic, any conversation about implementing masks for elementary students should certainly be off the table now, but there are still heated, board-level conversations about masks for all students in the fall. Posters here can argue about medically helpful/not helpful as much as they wish, but what I'm seeing is simply this--inconsistent and inexplicable decisions and rationale

I don't see what is consistent or inexplicable here.
Children of a certain age will never hold the distance needed or do things like not taking off the mask for any lengthy amount of time.
That is why ordering children to wear masks is (nearly) useless and the cost/benefit of it (including psychological) is considered a bad one.

Of course you could use this argument to say "In the US there should be no mandatory mask wearing because a large amount of people would not adhere to it", but it would be you who said a large percentage of Americans have not more reason and mindfulness than little children...

How does your graph support your claim? Italy showed a peak in early March with a consistent decrease thereafter. If the mask mandate did not occur until early May, then did it really accelerate the decline beyond the rate it was already falling?

I don't know about masks, but in early march Italy made a real shotdown. Like people not allowed to leave their house. Enforced by the army, who also carried off the dead in their big army trucks (but of course those pictures are a liberal hoax too!).

Based on the experience of Italy, the other EU countries also enacted measures.
I for example got my official "Home Office only" order from my company on the 24th. That was just 3 weeks after the first confirmed spread of the virus in Germany. If you wanted to travel to the office, you would need a "permit" from the company stating that you can't do your job from home.
No meeting with people outside your family (more than one at a time), leave home only if necessary (work, shopping, doctors). Masks.

Today Germany has less death from the whole time than the US has per day. With a month more of strict rules, we could maybe have succceeded in eliminating the virus in our country. But alas, people and "the economy". Let's see if we get a second wave or scratch by.

The only two countries that didn't do that stuff were UK and Sweden. Sweden has the highest per-head rate of death now. UK is a mess.

According to World'o'meters the top mortality rate countries in order are:

San Marino (surrounded by northern Italy)
Belgium
Andorra
UK
Spain
Italy
Sweden
France
USA

Canada is #19.   And we haven't had widespread acceptance of masks yet, with mandatory usage in certain situations just starting to be enforced.

[Cassie]

I hope masks become mandatory in the us. The sooner this virus is gone the better.

[Jack0Life]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

[totoro]

Washington State just made them mandatory.

[Arbitrage]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

[Kris]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

[Samuel]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

I'd call them free riders but they'd take it as a complement.

[jrhampt]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

[Jack0Life]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

[Jack0Life]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

[J Boogie]

Recently in the news...

Marco Rubio says that everyone should just wear a damn mask.


And an Oregon county quickly changes course on a controversial mask exemption.

https://www.wjhl.com/news/oregon-county-reverses-mask-exception-for-people-of-color-after-shocking-backlash/

[ixtap]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

Can you imagine the majority of Americans downloading the tracing apps some countries have developed?!

[Kris]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

Can you imagine the majority of Americans downloading the tracing apps some countries have developed?!

I'm already seeing people losing their shit about the fact that the apps exist.

[Cassie]

Nevada just made masks mandatory. It’s a good idea.

[BudgetSlasher]

Yes. We already mandate things like shirts and shoes, so it’s not like there’s no precedent.

Do we? Perhaps socially there are expectations, and businesses can refuse service for certain reasons related to attire, but I don't think there's a government mandate about personal attire as long as the naughty bits are covered.

While he is confusing general business/social practice with government regulation, let look at covering the "naughty bits".

If we can require the naughty bits be covered on the basis of being indecent uncovered. And decency is a social  norm could we not argue that covering your face during a respiratory pandemic is the decent thing to do and therefore to do otherwise is indecent? 

[totoro]

Yes. We already mandate things like shirts and shoes, so it’s not like there’s no precedent.

Do we? Perhaps socially there are expectations, and businesses can refuse service for certain reasons related to attire, but I don't think there's a government mandate about personal attire as long as the naughty bits are covered.

While he is confusing general business/social practice with government regulation, let look at covering the "naughty bits".

If we can require the naughty bits be covered on the basis of being indecent uncovered. And decency is a social  norm could we not argue that covering your face during a respiratory pandemic is the decent thing to do and therefore to do otherwise is indecent?

It is not really about decency, it is a public health issue more like second-hand smoke.  Much more potential immediate harm, including risk of a horrible death and passing it on to your high risk loved ones, than second-hand smoke though.  Given the high potential for harm and the relatively small inconvenience, seems like it should be a non-issue to mandate masks and then they will become a norm.

[Jack0Life]

While in my wonderful state of Florida.
Record were set 2 weeks ago with over 2000 NEW cases.
A week later new record was set with over 4000 NEW cases,then 5000.
Now the NEW record is 8942.
Just for comparison. last month from May 17 to 27, we had 7444 new cases.
This month from June 17 to 27, we've had 42851. More than 5x from last month.
I guess the young people in the state of Florida are partying like its 1999 and without precautions.
Meanwhile, our Governor still won't mandate masks.

[LennStar]

Yes, a great example fo the power of compound interest. Doubling every week. You are right on your way to 1 million death at Christmas. Sometimes I really hate it to be right.

I don't think it will be much of consolation to you, but I am quite sure the EU is just starting it's second wave, too. First one was 3 weeks earlier than US, second one is 3 weeks later.

[Shane]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

[Shane]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

Can you imagine the majority of Americans downloading the tracing apps some countries have developed?!

I'm already seeing people losing their shit about the fact that the apps exist.

I'd be fine with downloading and using a contact tracing app. Do they exist for the US?

[Kris]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

Can you imagine the majority of Americans downloading the tracing apps some countries have developed?!

I'm already seeing people losing their shit about the fact that the apps exist.

I'd be fine with downloading and using a contact tracing app. Do they exist for the US?

There is one that just came out for iPhone and Android devices. I just updated my iPhone yesterday and it appeared automatically with the new update, but the important thing to note is that it does not enable unless you choose to enable it. But just the fact of it being there has enraged the tinfoil hat brigade.

I can't remember where you see it on Android, but for iPhone with the newest system update, you go to Settings -- Privacy -- Health and it's at the top under "Covid-19 Exposure Logging." It is automatically set to "off." But -- and this is the part the tinfoil types don't see -- in addition to enabling it, you apparently also need to install a separate app that can send Exposure notifications in order for this program to work. That app wasn't installed, and it doesn't look like that is a possibility yet.

[Shane]

Thanks @Kris ! I've got Android, but I'll do a search and see if I can find out what's available.

[Shane]

Here's an article I found that explains how Covid-19 contact tracing works on iOS and Android.

"On Android, open Settings, then tap Google and Covid-19 Exposure Notifications. You'll be met with a wealth of information about how exposure tracking works, plus two settings that won't be active until you install a compatible app: One to delete all the random IDs that your phone has collected, and one to turn off the feature completely.

If you use iOS, open Settings and select Privacy, Health, and Covid-19 Exposure Logging. Again, you can turn this logging on or off and read some more information about how it works. To get rid of the random IDs that are stored on your phone, tap the Delete Exposure Log option at the bottom.

For these apps to work, you'll need your phone's Bluetooth and location tracking features turned on, though your actual physical location isn't tracked—the apps won't know where in the world you are or how many times you've left the house today. They'll only know which random IDs your phone has come into contact with."

[LennStar]

Should work without location data. But hell, that is where private companies want their share of the profit.

[Jack0Life]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

This is the most common answer I've seen. "I always wear a masks inside the store but I don't like the government to mandate it".
Well, there lies the problem. You don't mandate it which is why people aren't wearing them.
How to you suppose to get compliance if you don't mandate it ?? If they didn't make the smoking law, do you think you could get compliance from the smokers ??
We're not even talking about making it a law. Its a mandate until we can slow down the virus. When the states shutdown all the businesses for 2+ months, was that a law ?? NO. Mandating businesses to require masks inside wouldn't have to be a law.

[Davnasty]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

I think this has been discussed but I've only skimmed the thread.

Government mandated does not mean we need to call the police every time we see someone breaking the rules. This is one of the biggest problems with the US policing system, it's assumed that we call the police for every little thing.

Instead businesses can be required to enforce mask wearing and if they don't they get citations/fines until they do or they eventually get shut down. This is similar to how other health codes are enforced. We don't call the police in to start rounding people up because waiters are chewing gum or refrigerated foods are left sitting out too long, yet somehow the government manages to "mandate" these things.

You might say, "but the mask requirement is one that a business must enforce with their customers rather than their employees", and yes that complicates the issue, but it's no different than requiring shoes and shirt for service. Do businesses immediately call 911 when someone walks in without a shirt? No, they ask the person to put a shirt on or leave. If they refuse, the business refuses service. If the person uses or threatens violence if they don't get service then (maybe) the police are called.

[GuitarStv]

Waiters can't chew gum?

[Jack0Life]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

I think this has been discussed but I've only skimmed the thread.

Government mandated does not mean we need to call the police every time we see someone breaking the rules. This is one of the biggest problems with the US policing system, it's assumed that we call the police for every little thing.

Instead businesses can be required to enforce mask wearing and if they don't they get citations/fines until they do or they eventually get shut down. This is similar to how other health codes are enforced. We don't call the police in to start rounding people up because waiters are chewing gum or refrigerated foods are left sitting out too long, yet somehow the government manages to "mandate" these things.

You might say, "but the mask requirement is one that a business must enforce with their customers rather than their employees", and yes that complicates the issue, but it's no different than requiring shoes and shirt for service. Do businesses immediately call 911 when someone walks in without a shirt? No, they ask the person to put a shirt on or leave. If they refuse, the business refuses service. If the person uses or threatens violence if they don't get service then (maybe) the police are called.

+1.
This entire thread,people seem to think mandating means law and police are necessarily  involve, Let's start my making businesses compliant to the rules first. Fines and then shutdown are the next steps.

[MudPuppy]

That was my whole point with the fire marshall and building capacity example. These are things we mandate and generally let the businesses regulate for themselves, and mask use need not be any different.

[Shane]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

This is the most common answer I've seen. "I always wear a masks inside the store but I don't like the government to mandate it".
Well, there lies the problem. You don't mandate it which is why people aren't wearing them.
How to you suppose to get compliance if you don't mandate it ?? If they didn't make the smoking law, do you think you could get compliance from the smokers ??
We're not even talking about making it a law. Its a mandate until we can slow down the virus. When the states shutdown all the businesses for 2+ months, was that a law ?? NO. Mandating businesses to require masks inside wouldn't have to be a law.

In my neighborhood all of the homeowners are white, most of the renters are black, and every cop I've ever seen is white. It's fine for the government to mandate whatever they feel like, but when they start actually enforcing rules, it won't be applied evenly. My wife and I will NEVER get slammed on the ground, handcuffed and thrown in the back of a cop car for not properly social distancing. The cops would lose their jobs if they tried to do that to us. Our poor black neighbors lack that privilege. Police can do whatever they want to them, and nothing will happen to them. #defundthepolice

[Shane]

The countless bickering and debating are tiresome isn't it ?? There's zero leadership in what is the most powerful country on Earth.
We know wearing a mask will minimize the spreading. How much we don't know.
Instead of arguing the legality of it, how about just fucking try it ??
I mean we shut down for country for 2+ months and look at the damage it caused.
How about lets start and make everyone wear a mask inside a private entity first. Its perfectly legal there. Let's try it for a month or two and see if the rates go down.
Our leaders need to grow some balls and institute some rules instead of letting people do whatever they want to do. Clearly its not working.

I always wear a mask when inside a public building, like a shop or whatever, and have zero problems with doing so. Still don't think it should be a law that everyone has to do it. We've got too many laws already that get disproportionately enforced against poor brown and black people. Fuck making any new ones, until we dismantle our whole system of mass incarceration and #defundthepolice

I think this has been discussed but I've only skimmed the thread.

Government mandated does not mean we need to call the police every time we see someone breaking the rules. This is one of the biggest problems with the US policing system, it's assumed that we call the police for every little thing.

Instead businesses can be required to enforce mask wearing and if they don't they get citations/fines until they do or they eventually get shut down. This is similar to how other health codes are enforced. We don't call the police in to start rounding people up because waiters are chewing gum or refrigerated foods are left sitting out too long, yet somehow the government manages to "mandate" these things.

You might say, "but the mask requirement is one that a business must enforce with their customers rather than their employees", and yes that complicates the issue, but it's no different than requiring shoes and shirt for service. Do businesses immediately call 911 when someone walks in without a shirt? No, they ask the person to put a shirt on or leave. If they refuse, the business refuses service. If the person uses or threatens violence if they don't get service then (maybe) the police are called.

Agreed, we shouldn't be calling the police for every little thing. Unfortunately, people do, and when people call 911 asking for a cop, guys with tasers, handcuffs and guns *have* to show up. Surprise, surprise, when you send guys who are trained to choke, tase, or kill people, sometimes they do what they've been trained to do. I'd just prefer that we educate people to get them to do the right thing. Businesses already have the right to refuse entry/service to customers who won't follow their rules. Businesses can always choose to add to their existing signs: "No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service." But, when the inevitable person comes along who refuses to comply, somebody's going to call the cops to enforce it. I just don't want any more government laws, mandates, or whatever you want to call them. No more. Too many, already.

[Shane]

You can say all you want, "It's just a *mandate*, not a law. The police don't have to be involved." For us who are reading this thread, that's what it would be, just a mandate, kind of like building codes or maybe a parking ticket. The reality of how *mandates* are enforced against poor black people, though, is very different from anything that might happen to us. Can you imagine any circumstances under which police officers sent to enforce a building code violation against you might "punch you," or maybe your wife, "in the face?" Or, maybe, "knock you to the ground with his fists and then sit on you while another officer handcuffs you?" No, right?

In our bimodal neighborhood, the people I have seen regularly breaking social distancing mandates, throughout our state's shutdown, have been poor, black people. All of us white people would be totally fine if strictly enforced *mandates* were put into place requiring that everyone wear masks. We could all easily comply, and if we didn't, we could just say we're sorry, cops would give us a warning, maybe hand us a free disposable mask, and everything would be fine. We wouldn't get choked out or slammed face first into the asphalt.

NYT: Scrutiny of Social-Distance Policing as 35 of 40 Arrested Are Black


From the NYT article:

"A police officer enforcing social-distancing rules broke up a group of people on a stoop during a nighttime cookout in East New York, Brooklyn, punching one man in the face. Another dispute between officers and residents of the same predominantly black neighborhood over the guidelines led to a man being knocked unconscious. Days later, three men were arrested after taking part in a sprawling vigil at the Queensbridge Houses for a rapper who was said to have died of the coronavirus."

"The arrests of black and Hispanic residents, several of them filmed and posted online, occurred on the same balmy days that other photographs circulated showing police officers handing out masks to mostly white visitors at parks in Lower Manhattan, Williamsburg and Long Island City. Video captured crowds of sunbathers, many without masks, sitting close together at a park on a Manhattan pier, uninterrupted by the police."

"On Thursday night, the Brooklyn district attorney’s office became the first prosecutor in the city to release statistics on social-distancing enforcement. In the borough, the police arrested 40 people for social-distancing violations from March 17 through May 4, the district attorney’s office said.

Of those arrested, 35 people were black, four were Hispanic and one was white."

"A confrontation on Saturday in front of a deli on the Lower East Side has become a flash point in the debate. Officers approached two people for a social-distancing violation, then arrested a man for marijuana charges and a woman for resisting arrest, according to security camera video and the police.

One of the officers, Francisco X. Garcia, then confronted a bystander, knocked the man to the ground with his fists and sat on him as another officer handcuffed him, a second video recorded on a cellphone showed."

[Jack0Life]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

[expatartist]

I think after 6 pages of voting and various arguments, it pretty sum up of whats going on in America.
Here we have a proven, easy but minor inconvenient way to minimize the virus but instead, a lot of Americans are still exercising their "freedom","individuality","entitlement" or what ever to do what they want to do.
Pretty sad as a society. Got nothing else to say except to see how this pandemic play out.

Pretty early on in this pandemic, upon listening to the various political controversies, I noted that I believed that we (in the USA) were probably destined to have the worst outbreak in the world, despite having a lot of advantages that should allow us to combat it effectively (e.g. high income/ability to stay home, safety nets, technology, health care, lower population density than many countries), because we're really a bunch of whiners.  I think I even underestimated just how much whining we would do, though.  People in other countries seem largely ok with doing things for the common good; we seem unable to look beyond the tips of our own noses.

+1.

+2

+3

+4

Those of us watching the shitshow that is America from overseas are stunned.

Where I live (Hong Kong) there is no government mandate to wear masks. There didn't need to be one. At the beginning of the pandemic the govt had recently banned mask-wearing due to our protests. People said F you we're wearing them anyway because we know science has proven that's the best DIY protection for a contagious respiratory virus like SARS, when there's no vaccine.

We've had 6 deaths and 1,197 infections (most imported) in a city the size of NYC.

[Shane]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

[GuitarStv]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

You don't think the educational campaign will be somewhat undercut by the disinformation campaign that the president has been running since the start of the pandemic?

[MasterStache]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

You don't think the educational campaign will be somewhat undercut by the disinformation campaign that the president has been running since the start of the pandemic?

The mere fact that Trump refuses to wear a mask is already disinformation. You lead by example. Not wearing a mask tells others it's ok not to wear one.

The fact that this is even a debate is mind boggling. It's a fucking pandemic! How long does it take to educate someone? How many folks still don't believe in global warming? You can't educate someone who only cares about "mah freedums!" The best education is the leaders of this country stepping up, putting on their mask, and telling everyone else to wear one or else more people are going to die and shutdowns will happen again.  We wouldn't need to discuss mandating mask if people just applied some unselfish common sense. I realize that's asking a lot in America.

[LennStar]

[DadJokes]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

Have you met many people in America?

The information is widely available. People are not wearing masks out of spite at this point because they think it's a political statement. My local professional sports team posted on social media encouraging people to wear masks, and the number of people complaining because "muh freedom" was absurd.

These same people are going to ignore a government mandate anyway. As such, it is going to fall to businesses to deny service to people without masks.

[Shane]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

You don't think the educational campaign will be somewhat undercut by the disinformation campaign that the president has been running since the start of the pandemic?

Yeah, for sure any education/marketing campaign is going to be undercut by the dumbass in the White House. Andrew Cuomo seems to be doing a good job in NY. I wish he were our president. Cuomo doesn't just order people to follow mandates. He leads by talking, sometimes pleading, with the people of NY to follow public health recommendations, and he explains the reasons why people should voluntarily do what he is recommending.

[js82]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

Have you met many people in America?

The information is widely available. People are not wearing masks out of spite at this point because they think it's a political statement. My local professional sports team posted on social media encouraging people to wear masks, and the number of people complaining because "muh freedom" was absurd.

These same people are going to ignore a government mandate anyway. As such, it is going to fall to businesses to deny service to people without masks.

So, my car was in the shop this week.  Shuttle service to/from work not running because of Covid so I stayed there while they worked on my car.  My state is currently masks-mandatory.

I was sitting on a sofa in the waiting area.  There were other chairs/tables that were free that were a reasonable distance from myself or anyone else.  A guy comes in and sits... not at an open spot, but right next to me.  Aaaand... his mask was around his neck.  I abruptly got up and moved elsewhere.

Shortly thereafter a woman comes in, also rocking the mask-as-chinstrap fashion that is currently popular in my area.  She and the man strike up a rather loud conversation about how masks are uncomfortable, and how it's hard for her son who has to wear a mask while working(in an air-conditioned, indoor environment).

As someone who personally has to wear a mask for 6-10 hours a day, sometimes in an environment where temperatures exceed 95F/35C, I can say with confidence that the worst part of the whole thing is a bit of chafing on my left ear.  Other than for the extreme minority of people who have a medical condition that conflicts with mask use this really shouldn't be a big deal.

It's *this* kind of stuff that's infuriating to me.  I'm not into the idea of calling the cops on people for failing to wear a mask, but showing a minimum level of concern for one's fellow citizens(wear a mask in indoor public places, space out from strangers when possible) shouldn't be a big deal, and the fact that people don't do it is pretty depressing.  Mask use and basic social distancing are *cheap* and *easy* compared to all the other stuff we're dealing with as a result of the pandemic, and there'd be a lot less of the "other" stuff to do if we did the cheap/easy stuff.

Mandate or no mandate, leaders setting the tone and modeling good behavior rather than playing politics would certainly help.

[Shane]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

Have you met many people in America?

The information is widely available. People are not wearing masks out of spite at this point because they think it's a political statement. My local professional sports team posted on social media encouraging people to wear masks, and the number of people complaining because "muh freedom" was absurd.

These same people are going to ignore a government mandate anyway. As such, it is going to fall to businesses to deny service to people without masks.

There are some state and local governments that seem to be doing a good job. Andrew Cuomo in NY comes to mind.

I live in the US now, so, yeah, I've met a few Americans. Most of the people in our neighborhood are doing our best to social distance and wear masks whenever we enter businesses. It's not that hard.

In the US we've got some incredibly smart marketing people. Somehow, they manage to convince consumers to purchase a shitload of useless crap, most of which they don't need. It seems like if state and local governments where covid is running rampant, right now, were to hire smart marketing people to conduct a media blitz, they could persuade people to voluntarily start wearing masks. Of course, doing that is complicated by the fact that an election is coming up in a few months.

The example of Hong Kong that expatartist mentioned above was good, I thought. The HK government literally just outlawed the wearing of masks in public, shortly before covid started, but because people there are convinced that masks help keep them healthy, they are mostly all wearing them anyway, even though it's against the law! In the short term, it may not be possible in the US, because of the upcoming election and, also, because of the dipshit in the WH, but convincing the people to wear masks, because it's in their own best interest, seems to me to be the best way to get people to comply, not forcing them to do it.

[Shane]

So you wrote 3 long posts opposing mandating masks.
I think your thought on police involvement is over blown but that's another issue.
What is your solution to reducing the infection rates ?? Do nothing ?? I mean the "do nothing" and let people use their best judgement isn't working.
We wasted 3+ months of shutdowns and the new cases are back to what it was before the shutdown. We can't have another shutdown. We have an easy solution to slow down the virus so I'm still befuddled on why so much opposition.

Education. Use words to persuade people to voluntarily wear masks. In a country where our highest elected official refuses to wear a mask and has stated publicly, multiple times, that he thinks mask wearing should be a personal decision, it makes ZERO sense for the government to *mandate* that individuals do anything.

Have you met many people in America?

The information is widely available. People are not wearing masks out of spite at this point because they think it's a political statement. My local professional sports team posted on social media encouraging people to wear masks, and the number of people complaining because "muh freedom" was absurd.

These same people are going to ignore a government mandate anyway. As such, it is going to fall to businesses to deny service to people without masks.

So, my car was in the shop this week.  Shuttle service to/from work not running because of Covid so I stayed there while they worked on my car.  My state is currently masks-mandatory.

I was sitting on a sofa in the waiting area.  There were other chairs/tables that were free that were a reasonable distance from myself or anyone else.  A guy comes in and sits... not at an open spot, but right next to me.  Aaaand... his mask was around his neck.  I abruptly got up and moved elsewhere.

Shortly thereafter a woman comes in, also rocking the mask-as-chinstrap fashion that is currently popular in my area.  She and the man strike up a rather loud conversation about how masks are uncomfortable, and how it's hard for her son who has to wear a mask while working(in an air-conditioned, indoor environment).

As someone who personally has to wear a mask for 6-10 hours a day, sometimes in an environment where temperatures exceed 95F/35C, I can say with confidence that the worst part of the whole thing is a bit of chafing on my left ear.  Other than for the extreme minority of people who have a medical condition that conflicts with mask use this really shouldn't be a big deal.

It's *this* kind of stuff that's infuriating to me.  I'm not into the idea of calling the cops on people for failing to wear a mask, but showing a minimum level of concern for one's fellow citizens(wear a mask in indoor public places, space out from strangers when possible) shouldn't be a big deal, and the fact that people don't do it is pretty depressing.  Mask use and basic social distancing are *cheap* and *easy* compared to all the other stuff we're dealing with as a result of the pandemic, and there'd be a lot less of the "other" stuff to do if we did the cheap/easy stuff.

Mandate or no mandate, leaders setting the tone and modeling good behavior rather than playing politics would certainly help.

Amen!