Should frugalnacho buy a new house and move?

[John Galt incarnate!]

YOLO.
If you find a "forever" home, this shouldn't deter you from moving.

+1.

[lhamo]

Considering what you would lose in fees/moving costs +the likelihood that you would end up overpaying in a tight market, I would be inclined to make the improvements that will make your current house more liveable for the next few years.

I would go for the fixed rate on a 30 year refi, given the wonkiness at your employer.  Give yourself room for lower payments if you have to take some time to find a new job.

Or, if you think there is any chance you might get a new offer that would make moving make sense maybe hold off on the renos (but maybe not the cash out refi) a bit longer until your job situation stabilizes.  I know it is frustrating to wait but....

[Fomerly known as something]

Time to revive this thread.

Mrs. frugalnacho has still been on a real estate kick looking at houses.  We went over the math, and it still seems insanely expensive, in fact even more expensive than when this thread was created.  The inventory is nuts as well.  Houses are in short supply, and are going for ridiculous prices.  So we went over all our wants and needs to see if it was possible to make our current property fit our needs.

We've done a lot of decluttering, and are in the process of cleaning the basement out.  We haven't gotten to the sheds, but are planning to declutter and dispose of everything we don't actually need.  We'd like to completely empty the basement and finish it to give us a lot of additional living space.  I previously poo-pooed the idea of putting in a garage, but it seems far more affordable than moving, and we would likely need it for storage space (if we want to finish the basement with almost no dedicated storage space).  I could rearrange my garden beds and still have adequate space for what I want to grow.  We wouldn't have a huge spacious yard, but we aren't going to be able to get that for a reasonable price so I think we just need to compromise. 

The basement is pretty small (22' X 22'), and has laundry, furnace, water heater, sump pump, electrical panel, and a staircase - all of which eat into the final finished space.  There is also a small cubby in addition to that that we are using as a pantry, and are planning to keep it a pantry after finishing it. We are planning to wall off under the stairs for chemical storage (paints, etc that we don't want in a freezing garage, and also don't want by the furnace).  The wall around the furnace/water heater/laundry will have sufficient space to put a few 18" deep rolling shelves to provide a little storage space in the furnace room.  We haven't purged everything we don't need, but we already have enough that we will require more storage space than what I just outlined in the basement.  The basement will provide us with a second living room type area, space for a computer/musical equipment, and space for gym/fitness.  When we want to host a large family gathering (assuming covid goes away and we can eventually have gatherings again!) we can clear the floor and have a large open space to setup tables and chairs. 

The garage will provide a space to put up our large shelving units for storage.  It will also give us space for everything currently in the sheds (except purged junk!), as well as a space for me to organize my tools and set up a workbench.   

After speaking with a couple contractors, and several non-contractors, we think the garage will cost roughly $25k.  That's for cement work (extend driveway and a pad for garage), materials, labor, permits, upgraded electrical panel in house, and just about everything needed.

The costs I've been given to finish the basement are consistently around $3k if I do most of the labor myself, but I think that sounds a bit on the cheap end and I don't know how I could possibly get everything needed for that price and I am anticipating it will actually be more.   I can do the electrical work and put up the walls and do carpentry.  I'm less confident about finishing the floor myself (I'm unsure of what we even want the floor to be). 

We can either fund the construction out of our brokerage account/new savings (can't even pour concrete until spring), or do a cash out refinance.  We are currently leaning toward a cash out refinance since the rates are so low.  We will have to pay off that $46k 0% lien if we refinance, which sucks, but we'd be able to take a lot of cash out and lock in a low rate (2.875%).

I’m in the other half of the state, likely to finish my basement this winter doing none of the work.  It’s a bit different because there will be a full bath as well.  Electric and plumbing has been quoted at $6-7k, the general contractor is coming out Wednesday to formally quote.  He thinks we can get it done for $10k or so total.  It’s about 800sqft finishing about 75% of it.

[the_fixer]

Time to revive this thread.

Mrs. frugalnacho has still been on a real estate kick looking at houses.  We went over the math, and it still seems insanely expensive, in fact even more expensive than when this thread was created.  The inventory is nuts as well.  Houses are in short supply, and are going for ridiculous prices.  So we went over all our wants and needs to see if it was possible to make our current property fit our needs.

We've done a lot of decluttering, and are in the process of cleaning the basement out.  We haven't gotten to the sheds, but are planning to declutter and dispose of everything we don't actually need.  We'd like to completely empty the basement and finish it to give us a lot of additional living space.  I previously poo-pooed the idea of putting in a garage, but it seems far more affordable than moving, and we would likely need it for storage space (if we want to finish the basement with almost no dedicated storage space).  I could rearrange my garden beds and still have adequate space for what I want to grow.  We wouldn't have a huge spacious yard, but we aren't going to be able to get that for a reasonable price so I think we just need to compromise. 

The basement is pretty small (22' X 22'), and has laundry, furnace, water heater, sump pump, electrical panel, and a staircase - all of which eat into the final finished space.  There is also a small cubby in addition to that that we are using as a pantry, and are planning to keep it a pantry after finishing it. We are planning to wall off under the stairs for chemical storage (paints, etc that we don't want in a freezing garage, and also don't want by the furnace).  The wall around the furnace/water heater/laundry will have sufficient space to put a few 18" deep rolling shelves to provide a little storage space in the furnace room.  We haven't purged everything we don't need, but we already have enough that we will require more storage space than what I just outlined in the basement.  The basement will provide us with a second living room type area, space for a computer/musical equipment, and space for gym/fitness.  When we want to host a large family gathering (assuming covid goes away and we can eventually have gatherings again!) we can clear the floor and have a large open space to setup tables and chairs. 

The garage will provide a space to put up our large shelving units for storage.  It will also give us space for everything currently in the sheds (except purged junk!), as well as a space for me to organize my tools and set up a workbench.   

After speaking with a couple contractors, and several non-contractors, we think the garage will cost roughly $25k.  That's for cement work (extend driveway and a pad for garage), materials, labor, permits, upgraded electrical panel in house, and just about everything needed.

The costs I've been given to finish the basement are consistently around $3k if I do most of the labor myself, but I think that sounds a bit on the cheap end and I don't know how I could possibly get everything needed for that price and I am anticipating it will actually be more.   I can do the electrical work and put up the walls and do carpentry.  I'm less confident about finishing the floor myself (I'm unsure of what we even want the floor to be). 

We can either fund the construction out of our brokerage account/new savings (can't even pour concrete until spring), or do a cash out refinance.  We are currently leaning toward a cash out refinance since the rates are so low.  We will have to pay off that $46k 0% lien if we refinance, which sucks, but we'd be able to take a lot of cash out and lock in a low rate (2.875%).

See how much extra attic trusses would cost for the garage it can add a HUGE amount of storage space and typically is very inexpensive for what you get over a standard truss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frugalnacho]

We are limited to a 14 foot structure height.  That's measured as average between ceiling and peak, so it's actually higher than 14 feet, but not high enough to allow a loft (which was my first plan).  I am definitely planning to get some attic space up there if possible.

[frugalnacho]

Time to revive this thread.

Mrs. frugalnacho has still been on a real estate kick looking at houses.  We went over the math, and it still seems insanely expensive, in fact even more expensive than when this thread was created.  The inventory is nuts as well.  Houses are in short supply, and are going for ridiculous prices.  So we went over all our wants and needs to see if it was possible to make our current property fit our needs.

We've done a lot of decluttering, and are in the process of cleaning the basement out.  We haven't gotten to the sheds, but are planning to declutter and dispose of everything we don't actually need.  We'd like to completely empty the basement and finish it to give us a lot of additional living space.  I previously poo-pooed the idea of putting in a garage, but it seems far more affordable than moving, and we would likely need it for storage space (if we want to finish the basement with almost no dedicated storage space).  I could rearrange my garden beds and still have adequate space for what I want to grow.  We wouldn't have a huge spacious yard, but we aren't going to be able to get that for a reasonable price so I think we just need to compromise. 

The basement is pretty small (22' X 22'), and has laundry, furnace, water heater, sump pump, electrical panel, and a staircase - all of which eat into the final finished space.  There is also a small cubby in addition to that that we are using as a pantry, and are planning to keep it a pantry after finishing it. We are planning to wall off under the stairs for chemical storage (paints, etc that we don't want in a freezing garage, and also don't want by the furnace).  The wall around the furnace/water heater/laundry will have sufficient space to put a few 18" deep rolling shelves to provide a little storage space in the furnace room.  We haven't purged everything we don't need, but we already have enough that we will require more storage space than what I just outlined in the basement.  The basement will provide us with a second living room type area, space for a computer/musical equipment, and space for gym/fitness.  When we want to host a large family gathering (assuming covid goes away and we can eventually have gatherings again!) we can clear the floor and have a large open space to setup tables and chairs. 

The garage will provide a space to put up our large shelving units for storage.  It will also give us space for everything currently in the sheds (except purged junk!), as well as a space for me to organize my tools and set up a workbench.   

After speaking with a couple contractors, and several non-contractors, we think the garage will cost roughly $25k.  That's for cement work (extend driveway and a pad for garage), materials, labor, permits, upgraded electrical panel in house, and just about everything needed.

The costs I've been given to finish the basement are consistently around $3k if I do most of the labor myself, but I think that sounds a bit on the cheap end and I don't know how I could possibly get everything needed for that price and I am anticipating it will actually be more.   I can do the electrical work and put up the walls and do carpentry.  I'm less confident about finishing the floor myself (I'm unsure of what we even want the floor to be). 

We can either fund the construction out of our brokerage account/new savings (can't even pour concrete until spring), or do a cash out refinance.  We are currently leaning toward a cash out refinance since the rates are so low.  We will have to pay off that $46k 0% lien if we refinance, which sucks, but we'd be able to take a lot of cash out and lock in a low rate (2.875%).

I’m in the other half of the state, likely to finish my basement this winter doing none of the work.  It’s a bit different because there will be a full bath as well.  Electric and plumbing has been quoted at $6-7k, the general contractor is coming out Wednesday to formally quote.  He thinks we can get it done for $10k or so total.  It’s about 800sqft finishing about 75% of it.

Good to know.  We already have 2 bathrooms.  As nice as an additional bathroom in the basement would be, space is at such a premium we obviously won't be doing that.  Our 1st floor bathroom is right at the top of the stairs anyway, so you couldn't possibly be more than 30 ft + one stairway to the bathroom. 


I'm not sure how we'd finish the basement with all our stuff in it, other than moving everything to one side and covering it, then moving it to the other side when half the floor is done, and working around it to put up all the walls.  Seems like it would be much easier to do with an empty basement, but we may have to work around it if we want to get it completed before spring/summer. 

[Linea_Norway]

Good idea to take a look at your current house and improve it. And for making the requirement list with your wife.

About your basement floor, are you familiar with fluid, self levelling cement? This levels itself out horizontally and dries within short time. As long as you have the edges in place and can just pour it, it is easy to use for a first time user.

[frugalnacho]

Our basement floor is sloped and has multiple floor drains.  I've used self leveling flooring when I built a basement bathroom in my previous house, but I'm unsure how it could be applied to my entire basement.  It would just run down into the drains (which we can't do - they have to remain open by code; also it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't code).  I'm sure it could be done, but I don't know that I want to attempt that myself with no experience. 

I have an uncle that had his basement floor epoxied by a company.  It looks really nice and makes clean up easy.  He said it cost about $3.5k several years ago.     

[Linea_Norway]

Our basement floor is sloped and has multiple floor drains.  I've used self leveling flooring when I built a basement bathroom in my previous house, but I'm unsure how it could be applied to my entire basement.  It would just run down into the drains (which we can't do - they have to remain open by code; also it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't code).  I'm sure it could be done, but I don't know that I want to attempt that myself with no experience. 

I have an uncle that had his basement floor epoxied by a company.  It looks really nice and makes clean up easy.  He said it cost about $3.5k several years ago.   

My DH did this in our bathroom in our first house. Sloped 1:100 towards a drain. He made a wooden construction to divide the floor into 6 or so compartments. And poured the concrete into one compartment at the time. While drying, he would try to shovel it back uphill with a plank. I have never heard him swearing and cursing that much, because the concrete kept running downhill. The result was good though and well sloped. He didn't run it all the way to the drain. Built some wood around it and used solid concrete around the drain with 1:50 slope.

[couponvan]

For the garage, invest the extra in really good pull down stairs so that you can get up and down to the rafter area and finish it with a good plywood floor.  Doing that at our last house made a HUGE difference because we could put all the outside Xmas/seasonal stuff up there and not have it cluttering up the garage when we weren't using it. Also, so for the biggest opening you can get even though it costs a bit more - you will thank me when you are trying to fit a snow blower up the stairs or a lawn mower down the stairs. :-)

That basement sounds amazingly cheap.  I need to find a cheap contractor for my Midwest lake house basement! 

[Fomerly known as something]

@frugalnacho so I finally got the numbers to finish my basement on the west side.  $6400 for all carpentry stuff, 3300 for plumbing and 3400 for electrical.  Only thing “outstanding” would be flooring materials but the installation is in the $6400.

[frugalnacho]

Another update:

I thought the market was bonkers several months ago, but it's off the damn rails now.  No inventory is available, and anything that is available is quickly sold for far above asking price.  The real estate market is absolute insanity right now.  It would be hard enough just buying a house in this market, but to have a big list of must have features in a specific location makes it pretty much impossible to find anything even if you are willing to overpay.  We found a house in our neighborhood before it even went on the market, but couldn't manage to get an appointment to see it because it went on the market friday evening, and on saturday they said they were accepting "best and final offer" and by mid day sunday it was already pending. 

We are still having trouble finding contractors to build a garage.  We've contacted probably 20 people and have received 0 quotes. We received one informal quote of $41k to build a 20x24 garage, but we haven't received a written quote from them yet even though it's been 2 weeks since we got the informal quote.  Lumber prices are insane, and contractors are so busy that the vast majority won't even bother calling us back, they just straight up blow us off.  And the ones that actually do contact us back won't give us quotes, they just kind of ghost us.  I don't get it. My previous experience with supply and demand is that when something is in high demand you simply raise prices until you find an equilibrium, but it seems no one is even willing to give us the "go away pricing", they just ignore us. 

Is building a garage a low profit job?  Is it not as profitable as other renovations? 

[Just Joe]

https://www.youtube.com/user/ken311953

This guy is current and offers a good insight into the garage business including costs. Around here cheap 2x4 are $9 a piece. It was $3 a piece not so long ago.

I haven't paid attention enough to where you live but if the weather allows it, consider using your garage as a family party room. Might be more convenient than a basement. This is assuming that you can creatively make space with whatever you are storing there. You can buy insect screens to cover the open garage door. Some attach with magnets. You might be able to accomplish this dual use simply with curtains or cabinet storage to hide your stuff for appearance sake.

https://www.ana-white.com

Ana White has some really great DIY level furniture and storage solutions. We just built a bunch of the garage shelves seen there.

IMHO I would make your existing house what you want it to be and wait for the markets to cool down.

[frugalnacho]

Just to add another wrinkle that I don't think has been included in this thread yet, we are expecting our second child in October.  So this construction has changed from something we want to something we actually need.  Our final bedroom which is currently a spare bedroom is going to become the new nursery, and we have to finish the basement in order to have a passable "spare bedroom" now.  It's nice to have a spare bed and room for guests to stay in when they visit, but we are really going to need it if we want my MIL to stay and help with the new baby, and we definitely want to accommodate her and get as much help as possible while the child is young, so we are planning to put a sleeper sofa in the finished basement and let it double as a bedroom when needed.  With the small size of our basement, and the fact that I also have to have an area to play guitar/music (non negotiable), I think the only option is to build a garage for storage purposes and finish the entire basement with minimal storage. Or move.   

This is the worst time to be buying a house, but also the worst time to be doing construction.  But I don't really see holding off and waiting as a viable option, I think we just have to bite the bullet and pay inflated prices. 

[robartsd]

This is the worst time to be buying a house, but also the worst time to be doing construction.  But I don't really see holding off and waiting as a viable option, I think we just have to bite the bullet and pay inflated prices.

Not sure how often you need access to the things stored in your basement, but it might be worth considering renting off-site storage to minimize your high market construction costs.

[Kathryn K.]

+1 to renting short-term storage as a stopgap measure.

Other ideas:
Realistically, how long is MIL likely to stay? What would say a monthlong airbnb rental run in your area?

Also, if your MIL is only sleeping there, how finished does the basement actually need to be? I would say get your sheds cleared out and move what you can from the basement into there and put down a nice area rug, a couple lamps, and maybe a standing screen in the basement in addition to the sleeper sofa and called it good. (My sibling and I slept in a semi-finished - at best - basement for several years and were none the worse for the wear; my parents had 4 kids in a 3 BR/1 BA house).

Do your older child and the new baby really both need their own rooms at this point? For example, the toddler be moved into your room temporarily? Or just use a bassinet in your room for the new baby? Every child needing their own room from birth has only been their norm for a very short period and only in a few areas.

[robartsd]

Also, if your MIL is only sleeping there, how finished does the basement actually need to be? I would say get your sheds cleared out and move what you can from the basement into there and put down a nice area rug, a couple lamps, and maybe a standing screen in the basement in addition to the sleeper sofa and called it good. (My sibling and I slept in a semi-finished - at best - basement for several years and were none the worse for the wear; my parents had 4 kids in a 3 BR/1 BA house).

Do think about safety. Is there already an egress window for the basement area where someone would sleep? Be sure that appropriate smoke detectors are installed and operational. Any air quality concerns that should be mitigated?

[Just Joe]

Would MIL be able to climb out of an egress window if she slept down there?

[frugalnacho]

Yes basement has egress and yes MIL will likely be able to get out of it.

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

Multiple quotes for garage have now come in.  $35-41k for a 20x22 garage, the cement work including driveway, and running electrical underground from my house.

[former player]

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

And yet you have having another....

[Kathryn K.]

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

And yet you have having another....

That's not the most helpful comment. Obviously frugalnacho and his wife have decided that even if this baby has the sleep habits of their first child (which is by no means guaranteed) that six months of little sleep is short in the scheme of things versus the benefits adding a member permanently to their family.

Multiple quotes for garage have now come in.  $35-41k for a 20x22 garage, the cement work including driveway, and running electrical underground from my house.

That is less than I thought it would be.  Still urge you to think if some of the more out of the box solutions would meet your needs.

[bacchi]

Multiple quotes for garage have now come in.  $35-41k for a 20x22 garage, the cement work including driveway, and running electrical underground from my house.

Sheeeeitttt. I'm getting $30k quotes for a single-car carport, shed roof, and just the concrete pad under it.

[robartsd]

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

And yet you have having another....

That's not the most helpful comment. Obviously frugalnacho and his wife have decided that even if this baby has the sleep habits of their first child (which is by no means guaranteed) that six months of little sleep is short in the scheme of things versus the benefits adding a member permanently to their family.

Indeed, that first child sounds like an exceptionally bad sleeper. Most babies are exhausting for the first few months, but not quite THAT exhausting (and hopefully for not so long after birth). I don't see any reason to think that frugalnacho's baby #2 is any more likely to be a poor sleeper than any other randomly selected baby; and they have the lessons of experience to help them make a plan to cope - thus this discussion of how to accommodate MIL.

[former player]

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

And yet you have having another....

That's not the most helpful comment. Obviously frugalnacho and his wife have decided that even if this baby has the sleep habits of their first child (which is by no means guaranteed) that six months of little sleep is short in the scheme of things versus the benefits adding a member permanently to their family.

It's the triumph of hope over experience, is all I meant.  The odds are in favour of this one being a much better sleeper.

[elysianfields]

Horses? Oh my.

Yeah I know.  That topic has been tabled until we are further along in FIRE.  If after we FIRE she is still obsessed and wants horses, I guess we can reevaluate and see at that point.  If we are in a position some members of this board where we FIRE on the 4% rule, then the markets go bonkers for a few years and we also earn extra income and end up in a position with a WR of 2%, then why not do whatever makes her happy if we can afford it?

Preliminary research indicates we will need to have a lots of acreage to support horses, she will have to spend a ton of time tending to the horses, and we will likely have to budget $5k+/yr/horse.  Sounds like a giant pain in the ass and also very expensive.  Also I hate horses.  They are majestic, but I hate riding them, hate taking care of animals, don't like smelling them.  Basically I want absolutely nothing to do with them.

On the horse idea, you should just say neigh.

[Linea_Norway]

Horses? Oh my.

Yeah I know.  That topic has been tabled until we are further along in FIRE.  If after we FIRE she is still obsessed and wants horses, I guess we can reevaluate and see at that point.  If we are in a position some members of this board where we FIRE on the 4% rule, then the markets go bonkers for a few years and we also earn extra income and end up in a position with a WR of 2%, then why not do whatever makes her happy if we can afford it?

Preliminary research indicates we will need to have a lots of acreage to support horses, she will have to spend a ton of time tending to the horses, and we will likely have to budget $5k+/yr/horse.  Sounds like a giant pain in the ass and also very expensive.  Also I hate horses.  They are majestic, but I hate riding them, hate taking care of animals, don't like smelling them.  Basically I want absolutely nothing to do with them.

On the horse idea, you should just say neigh.

Horses also attract flies around your house.

Your wife can probably volunteer to take care of someone elses horse.

[Linea_Norway]

Yes basement has egress and yes MIL will likely be able to get out of it.

If this child is anything like our first child (who didn't sleep more than 15 minutes at a time during entire first 6 months) we will need some live in help at least a couple days per week.  The first child nearly killed us with his non sleep.  Too many days of going to work in the same clothes from the previous day because I never got a chance to go to bed and just dealt with a screaming baby all night.  We started doing shifts with one person getting half a nights worth of desperately needed sleep while the other one took baby duty in the living room.  It was not enough and took a huge toll on both of us. We had no idea how bad it could be, or how long it could go on, and in retrospect we regret not hiring a live in nanny even at exorbitant cost. 

Multiple quotes for garage have now come in.  $35-41k for a 20x22 garage, the cement work including driveway, and running electrical underground from my house.

Could you put up a foldable bed in the nursary where MIL could "sleep"? Or a fold out sleeping chair, like a sleeping sofa, but in one person width.
I think it would be acceptable using a foldable guest bed in a random room, instead of keeping a whole room as extra bedroom.

[johndoe]

On the horse idea, you should just say neigh.

FYI you made me chortle, thanks!  But don't be so quick to rule horses out, they could be the glue to solidify this household!

Your county loan seems interesting, don't know that I've heard of that before.  I don't suppose you could transfer that deal to a new property, or the program is open to new purchases?

Do your in-laws live nearby?  Does their home have any space?  Maybe you make some trade with them (storage, childcare, payment) that helps all parties?  If I read right, you may move away in a few years... maybe they'd prefer to spend as much time as possible with their grandkids now?

(Disclaimer: below is "none of my business" territory... certainly not meant as personal attack...more like tongue-in-cheek-gentle-face-punch)  When you started this thread did you plan on a 2nd kid?  Was your wife's interest in real estate related to the pregnancy?  I don't suppose she thought: "oh you don't want to move to a bigger house?  Well let's see what you think once we get pregnant again!" :) On one hand this thread is about carefully considering how to optimize money aspects (i.e. "wow 5k/year on a horse is way too much") and on the other hand there is more to life choices than just the money  (i.e. "by the way we're making another baby").  Something tells me that for a man with a username including "frugal" with thousands of posts on this board - ready to take on the parenting challenge twice - the difference of the $x,000 we're talking about in this thread probably won't make or break your life.  \ramblings of a childless man

[ToTheMoon]

Congrats on the upcoming baby #2!

Your family does not sound unlike ours about 8 years ago - 2 adults, 1 kid, 3 bed 1 bath, unfinished basement, standard yard, winter a good portion of the year and lots of gear - we tent camp/backpack, ski/snowboard/nordic ski, have 2 (pedal) bikes each - you get the idea! Over those 8 years, we added another child, a garage, finished the basement (with a second bathroom) and FINALLY figured out the storage for our bikes & yard stuff!

A garage was the first thing we added - but as my DH is a mechanic and likes to work on his (old) Jeep, classic cars and motorcycles, this did not help with house storage items AT ALL but was awesome for his hobbies. No cars that run are allowed in there either, so we still scrape windows!

Kid #2 came along and spent the bulk of the first year in our bedroom with us, and then the kids shared a 9'x11' room for the next 5-6 years (Ikea kids beds followed by a bunk bed.) This left us with the 3rd bedroom as the guest/office/"put a kid in there if one was having a terrible night" room. Only when the kids reached 9/7 did we start looking at finishing the basement in order to get everyone a bit more space. We did this just before the pandemic (thank goodness) and now have another guest/multi-use room (queen-sized cabinet bed gives it more flexibility) a second bathroom, and a second living room space. I think all of that was to say, do not think that you have to do all of this *RIGHT NOW* just because kid #2 is on the way. If they turn out to be another terrible sleeper you may have to pivot, but feeling the pressure to do everything right at this moment because they *might* be as poor a sleeper as #1 is putting undue pressure on you.

With regards to bikes/tools, this product is the best thing I have ever purchased when it comes to bike storage: https://can.steadyrack.com/ (Sorry, it keeps taking me directly to the Canadian site but you can find it from there I am sure.) It hangs your bikes off a wall and allows them to be close together and "file" them out of the way. Game-changing. Then, we took some leftover 2x4' chunks and hung them on the outside of our garage at three different levels. Then grabbed a few screw-in type tool hangers from the hardware store https://www.homedepot.ca/product/everbilt-7-16-x-5-in-heavy-duty-screw-in-large-tool-hanger-40lb/1000826782 and put all the rakes, shovels, axes, lawn edging tools etc hanging from those. The boards are directly one over the other with the hangers staggered, so the whole works only takes up about 4' of wall space. I can try to snap a photo if you are interested but I am not making sense! Maybe something like these would help even in your current sheds so that the pressure to get a garage up asap would be lessened - and you can always use them in/on it whenever it does get built?

Finally, for most of the household storage stuff, we purchased a bunch of bigger clear tubs with lids that stack nicely. I did put labels on them but you can also easily see the contents. Holiday decor, seasonal gear, extra parts/pieces of things all live in these. They are easy to move around and most of them live in a neat and tidy stack (2 wide, 4 tall) next to our deep freeze in the basement. I was going to build shelving for them to live on but then realized that was a waste of money and effort since they are not really visible to any of the living spaces anyhow and we do not need access to them often enough to justify it.

Sorry for the wall of text - but hopefully there is *something* in there that might help!

TTM

 

[Kathryn K.]

@frugalnacho  Any updates on what you decided to do?

[frugalnacho]

The market is still nuts and we likely couldn't have bought a suitable house if we wanted to; it's definitely a seller's market.  We did a cash out 30 yr mortgage @2.875% on our house for 80% of the equity (we also had to pay off the 0% loan we had).  We decluttered significantly and donated/trashed a lot of stuff. 

We are having a 2 car garage built for ~$36k.  I'm expecting the actual cost to realistically be around $40k. We removed 2 raised beds, and used the materials to make a single bed along the back of the yard behind the garage. I still have enough garden space.

The basement is still full of storage, so we are waiting until the garage is complete so we can move everything out and do the whole basement at once.  Still undecided on how exactly we are going to finish the basement, but we have a floor plan laid out.  It's just a matter of choosing the type of floor, walls, ceiling, lighting, etc and then actually doing it - or hiring someone to do it. 

Just found out today that the new baby is a girl, so we will have 1 boy, 1 girl.  The nursery is last on the list, but also has a hard self imposed deadline of
the end of August.  The nursery will just be painting and putting together furniture, and some kind of decorating that my wife will be doing, so we can get that done on our own relatively quickly.

Also planning to start a business with some long time coworkers.  This will geographically tie me to this location for probably 7-10 years if we are successful, but I should be able fat FIRE from there by then.  If we are not successful then I guess I'll reevaluate and get another 9-5 to grind out until FIRE.  We are already decently along the FIRE path so I'm not too worried. In fact the cash out from the mortgage refinance was enough to push us over $1M in assets (but also ballooned our debt up $130k). 

[Cranky]

Sounds like a plan!

[Kathryn K.]

Thanks for the update, @frugalnacho! Glad you were able to work through the issue of paying back the 0% loan since 2.875% is a fantastic rate for a 30 year mortgage and that is huge you are now at $1M in assets! Congratulations!

Also great that you still have room for gardening and as I mentioned before $36K (or even $40K) is very reasonable, especially considering the current prices for construction materials.

[kina]

Just chiming in to say that it is a very rare sleeper sofa that is nice to sleep on. Not to mention wrangle into (and out of) a basement. Suckers are heavy.

A sleeper sofa may be okay for a night or two, but if you want your MIL to be comfortable (and you should since she is theoretically making your life easier) don't cheap out since she will be there for an extended stay.

(writing as a senior citizen who in my younger days thought a ss was "just fine." I mentally apologize to all who slept on it...)

[couponvan]

I’m going to put in a vote for the Murphy bed for MIL. Easier to get into the basement and so much nicer for her to sleep on. Yes, they are more expensive, but they give you space when you need it most of the time, and that is worth the extra $.

[frugalnacho]

Update:

The garage finally got finished.  Final cost was around $40k.  I bought 11 sheets of 3/4" plywood and secured it on top of the trusses and installed an attic ladder for storage.  It's very short up there so I have to crawl, but it gives us a ton of square footage for storing low weight items.
   
We got the basement floor epoxied for around $3k, and then finished the rest of the basement spending about $12k in total.  We love it so far.  We got a sleeper sofa and an extra foam pad mattress for it.  I have laid on it, but not actually slept on it.  MIL has slept on it multiple times and says it's more comfortable than her bed. 

Baby came early in September.  She's significantly better at sleeping than her brother was, but we are still having a lot of issues with her waking up through the night (shes about 4 months old now).

We still have 2 garden beds, but will likely be taking one out because we just don't have time to garden.  DW has no interest in gardening, and I frankly don't have the time.  I enjoy it, but it ends up neglected.  The remaining garden bed is for cannabis only, which I do somehow make time to tend. 

I just put my two weeks notice in on Friday.  The business is moving forward and I am now geographically tied to this region until our business fails or we sell/disband. 

[couponvan]

The renovations were still cheaper than moving! Congratulations on your daughter and that things sound like they have turned out for the best. Is cannibus legal where you are for home growing? I swore we had a plant at our lake house in the forest-it got really tall, then one day disappeared. But it wasn’t on my land, and it wasn’t mine, so not my problem, right? Definitely was illegal in IL at the time.

[frugalnacho]

Yes it's legal in Michigan. 

[Sibley]

Glad to hear things are working out for you. Good luck with the baby sleeping.

[former player]

I looked back at your first post in the thread.  You were looking at $26k in moving costs and losing a free money loan of $46k to get a garage, more space in the house and a bigger yard. By staying and upgrading you have spent a total of $55k and got everything you wanted except for the bigger yard - which you don't have time to look after in any case.

Total win.  Congratulations on your first class mustachianism.

[Fomerly known as something]

Yes it's legal in Michigan.

I assume you have them properly locked down.  They can’t just be growing in a flower bed. 

[Kathryn K.]

Appreciate you coming back with an update! And congrats on the new addition to the family! Sound like the upgrades have worked out well (and still think you got a good deal on the garage cost).

[RedmondStash]

Sounds like you've moved past the "buy a new house" question, but I wanted to add that the selling/buying/moving scenario costs more like 9%-15% than 6%, when you take into account taxes on the house sale (not just federal but state/local), moving costs, title transfer fees, etc.

We spent some time recently trying to find a nice home to buy, but since you basically lose at least 10% of the value of the house when you move, and since the homes we like are more expensive than the one we're in, we rapidly realized that it just wasn't worth moving.

Just want to be sure you're aware of the additional costs of selling & buying when you're weighing your options.