Author Topic: Senate votes to repeal ACA  (Read 48684 times)

Fireball

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2017, 11:40:46 AM »


Assertions made with no evidence are easily dismissed by assertions made with little evidence.
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Where's your evidence?  Otherwise I might dismiss your assertion  :)
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Now your catching my drift. :).

brooklynguy

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2017, 12:49:53 PM »
I don't see how defunding doesn't blow up in the Repubs face.  So no subsidies and no Medicaid.  Which will cause havoc.
How will they blame Dems for this when they are the ones who did it?

Here's one possibility:  Republicans move forward with the "repeal and delay" tactic, passing a reconciliation bill that defunds Obamacare but doesn't become effective until some future date.  Ostensibly, the delay in effectiveness is to allow Obamacare to continue to operate during the transition to a post-Obamacare world.  But, as the Republicans surely know, even a delayed-effectiveness repeal will immediately wreak havoc on the insurance market as long as uncertainty continues to exist regarding Obamacare's replacement (or lack of replacement).  So Obamacare would collapse at a time when it is technically still in effect, allowing the Republicans to spin the story as Obamacare's own failure.

llorona

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2017, 01:00:03 PM »
Maybe I am not reading the right news sources, but I find it interesting how the story is spinned as the big political showdown that it is, and the millions of people losing coverage as an afterthought.

Yeah the people affected most are rarely being heard anyway, but I can't help and wonder if a similar number of people suddenly lost, say, their mortgage interest deduction. I bet there would be people in the streets demanding

Why isn't there a large group marching in DC right now?
Because they will be there on the 21st....

There will be at least 30 health care rallies around the country on January 15: https://berniesanders.com/ourfirststand/


Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2017, 01:01:23 PM »
I don't see how defunding doesn't blow up in the Repubs face.  So no subsidies and no Medicaid.  Which will cause havoc.
How will they blame Dems for this when they are the ones who did it?

Here's one possibility:  Republicans move forward with the "repeal and delay" tactic, passing a reconciliation bill that defunds Obamacare but doesn't become effective until some future date.  Ostensibly, the delay in effectiveness is to allow Obamacare to continue to operate during the transition to a post-Obamacare world.  But, as the Republicans surely know, even a delayed-effectiveness repeal will immediately wreak havoc on the insurance market as long as uncertainty continues to exist regarding Obamacare's replacement (or lack of replacement).  So Obamacare would collapse at a time when it is technically still in effect, allowing the Republicans to spin the story as Obamacare's own failure.

I am starting to lose faith in humanity.  :(

Yup. And then they will propose a replacement that very probably will be a worse alternative to the ACA and if the Dems oppose it, they will be painted as the obstructionists keeping hardworking Americans from having healthcare. What a fun game this is.

talltexan

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2017, 01:03:50 PM »
posting to follow...

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2017, 03:23:34 PM »

Similarly, if you claim that annual checkups are categorically useless,

I didn't say that.  I said that regular checkups are, statistically, unlikely to catch anything in the absence of any symptoms that would have prompted a normal person to seek out a checkup anyway.

Sure.  Seatbelts are also statistically unlikely to save your life.  I put that damn thing on every single time and it's never done me one bit of good.

But I still wear it.  Seatbelts save lives.  So do routine doctor visits.  And vaccines.  And having health insurance.

So do I.  But they shouldn't be required by the law.  Do you see where I'm going with this?  A slightly better analogy would be helmet laws for motorcyclists.  Helmets do save lives in most conditions; but there are contrary situations that make sense.  For example, helmets restrict the wearer's vision to the sides of their head, because they can't just flick their eye side to side anymore, they have to move their heads.  This takes more time, and such short time delays have shown to increase the odds that a near miss will result in an actual contact accident when a motorcycle is involved.  Furthermore, there are more than a few riders that, if an accident were bad enough that a helmet saves their life, they might rather have died quickly.  Based on these and other arguments against the, statistically true, value of safety helmets; several states have repealed the requirement to wear a helmet.

A seat belt law that requires me to be snapped in anytime my car is in motion is more likely to result in a government imposed cost by way of a fine than it is to save my life.  Either I am in the habit of using it, or I'm not.

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2017, 03:29:29 PM »
I'm actually with you on seat belt laws but that's not a relevant comparison to this conversation other than Sol's exact point that just because they aren't necessary most of the time doesn't mean they aren't a good idea.

No one is forcing you to get annual checkups whether or not they are subsidized.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2017, 03:35:47 PM »
I'm actually with you on seat belt laws but that's not a relevant comparison to this conversation other than Sol's exact point that just because they aren't necessary most of the time doesn't mean they aren't a good idea.

No one is forcing you to get annual checkups whether or not they are subsidized.

True, but they are forcing me to pay for them.  I'd rather pay for them when I think I need them.  Don't I have that right?

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2017, 04:29:19 PM »
Don't I have that right?

You want the right to consume healthcare without paying for it?  No, I don't think you should have that right.

You are currently protected from lots of things because other people buy insurance.  That insurance pays for care, which trains doctors and provides emergency ambulance services, both of which benefit you.  And on top of that, some day, whether or not you buy insurance, you are guaranteed to consume healthcare.  You can get it for free at the ER if you don't buy insurance. 

People who don't pay for insurance are getting all of the benefits of this system while bearing none of the costs.  They are freeloaders.

Are you a freeloader?

Does your objection to being compelled (with paltry fines) to buy health insurance also extend to being compelled to buy disability and unemployment insurance, both of which you also current buy with your taxes?  To being compelled to buy old age insurance (aka social security)?  To being compelled to buy national defense, or mail delivery?  You benefit from having all of things available to you, whether you use them or not and whether you pay for them or not.  I think you should pay.

RangerOne

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2017, 04:50:37 PM »
I'm actually with you on seat belt laws but that's not a relevant comparison to this conversation other than Sol's exact point that just because they aren't necessary most of the time doesn't mean they aren't a good idea.

No one is forcing you to get annual checkups whether or not they are subsidized.

True, but they are forcing me to pay for them.  I'd rather pay for them when I think I need them.  Don't I have that right?

You absolutely do have that right. You can chose to be uninsured and pay for everything 100% out of pocket.

There is no setup that is going to make everyone happy. Simplifying insurance plans has some benefits. But as you point out it probably mean you are paying for things you would rather opt out of to save money.

Sometimes giving up some choices makes sense if it simplifies your life to let you focus your decision making energy elsewhere. It can feel really shitty though for those of us who like to be able to dive in and optimize our expenditures.

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2017, 05:10:21 PM »
You absolutely do have that right.

I disagree.  American taxpayers do not have the right to opt out of paying for services that they enjoy.  I can't opt out of paying for invading Iraq.  I can't opt out of paying for polio vaccines.  Congress decided that some things are in the public interest, and everyone should pay for them.  Why is this so hard?

Whether or not you buy health insurance, you benefit from the health care infrastructure that the rest of us pay for.  Before you suggest we should each be a little island, recognize that these are social services that benefit everyone, and you are claiming the right to benefit without paying.

Even if you are not sick, you are still benefiting from having these services available to you, just like you are still benefiting from having disability insurance even if you are not disabled and unemployment insurance if you are not unemployed.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2017, 05:16:25 PM »
The seatbelt and helmet thing doesn't even fly because when you choose to not wear one of those and you get injured, the cost is usually shared by some other entity than yourself.  Even if it is suing someone who was at fault, it is still your responsibility to do reasonable things to reduce your injuries and their cost (everyone makes mistakes when driving, even if they never drink or text).

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2017, 05:49:44 PM »
Don't I have that right?

You want the right to consume healthcare without paying for it?  No, I don't think you should have that right.

You are currently protected from lots of things because other people buy insurance.  That insurance pays for care, which trains doctors and provides emergency ambulance services, both of which benefit you.  And on top of that, some day, whether or not you buy insurance, you are guaranteed to consume healthcare.  You can get it for free at the ER if you don't buy insurance. 

People who don't pay for insurance are getting all of the benefits of this system while bearing none of the costs.  They are freeloaders.

Are you a freeloader?

Does your objection to being compelled (with paltry fines) to buy health insurance also extend to being compelled to buy disability and unemployment insurance, both of which you also current buy with your taxes?  To being compelled to buy old age insurance (aka social security)?  To being compelled to buy national defense, or mail delivery?  You benefit from having all of things available to you, whether you use them or not and whether you pay for them or not.  I think you should pay.

How would this be different from the current situation? How many millions of people now have health insurance that they pay little to nothing for? It's all paid for by others, subsidized by taxes. There have always been free loaders, and there are still free loaders - just now everyone is paying for their health insurance premiums rather than paying for their health care bills as was the previous system. This would maybe be ok if it were cheaper, but it hasn't proven to be so. And in the end, it's for everyone's benefit to pay for them; under the previous system one had a choice to pay insurance premiums or pay the hospital bills which were inflated to cover the free-loaders. So I'm not sure why you're so hard on the free-loaders; they have always been there, and were already paid for. The only thing that has changed is that it has been made more expensive for those who have to pay for it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 05:52:26 PM by Metric Mouse »

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2017, 06:24:10 PM »
The seatbelt and helmet thing doesn't even fly because when you choose to not wear one of those and you get injured, the cost is usually shared by some other entity than yourself.
Certainly not the majority of the costs.

Quote
Even if it is suing someone who was at fault, it is still your responsibility to do reasonable things to reduce your injuries and their cost (everyone makes mistakes when driving, even if they never drink or text).

Yes, it is my responsibility to look after my own interests.  It is not the role of government to protect me from the consequences of my own decisions.  Keep going down that like of thought, and you will be agreeing with me in no time.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2017, 06:30:59 PM »
I don't see how defunding doesn't blow up in the Repubs face.  So no subsidies and no Medicaid.  Which will cause havoc.
How will they blame Dems for this when they are the ones who did it?

Here's one possibility:  Republicans move forward with the "repeal and delay" tactic, passing a reconciliation bill that defunds Obamacare but doesn't become effective until some future date.  Ostensibly, the delay in effectiveness is to allow Obamacare to continue to operate during the transition to a post-Obamacare world.  But, as the Republicans surely know, even a delayed-effectiveness repeal will immediately wreak havoc on the insurance market as long as uncertainty continues to exist regarding Obamacare's replacement (or lack of replacement).  So Obamacare would collapse at a time when it is technically still in effect, allowing the Republicans to spin the story as Obamacare's own failure.

You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates as HI companies struggle to keep up with the effect of the ACA as implemented.  If your scenario does come to pass (which seems pretty likely, to me) it would only speed up the collapse that would happen anyway. (Baring reform to the ACA)

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #215 on: January 13, 2017, 07:05:10 PM »
I'm not sure why you're so hard on the free-loaders;

I'm not hard on the freeloaders, I think they should freeload.  Children, for example, need to have medical care paid for by someone else.  Also disabled people, and the impoverished, and the catastrophically unlucky.

But Q clearly hates freeloaders.  I was trying to highlight for him how his decision to not pay for insurance makes him a parasite on the rest of us.

It is not the role of government to protect me from the consequences of my own decisions. 

In this case, government isn't protecting you from the consequences of your own decisions, it is just asking you to pay for the consequences of your own decisions.  See the difference yet?

You are also free to not wear a seatbelt.  You won't go to jail.  But they will fine you, so that you share in the costs that society incurs from people who don't wear seat belts.  The individual mandate penalty is fully analogous. Either follow the rules, or pay the fine.

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #216 on: January 13, 2017, 07:10:40 PM »
You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates

Let's not be dishonest about this.  Health insurance rates have risen more slowly under the ACA than they did before it was enacted, and insurers are now pulling out of markets they only ever got into in the first place because of the ACA subsidies.   

The ACA, while far from perfect, was a better system than what we had before.  I'm hopeful that whatever comes next is even better, but all signs suggest I am being overly optimistic.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #217 on: January 13, 2017, 07:12:41 PM »


But Q clearly hates freeloaders.  I was trying to highlight for him how his decision to not pay for insurance makes him a parasite on the rest of us.
You are misrepresenting my position.  I don't mind paying for myself, or my own premiums.  I just want to have the option of just paying for myself.  I don't hate freeloaders, I just think that the ACA makes that too easy, leading to too many freeloaders.

Quote

It is not the role of government to protect me from the consequences of my own decisions. 

In this case, government isn't protecting you from the consequences of your own decisions, it is just asking you to pay for the consequences of your own decisions.  See the difference yet?


Not true, the ACA demands that I pay for the consequences, and bad luck, of others.  Simply comparing my premiums just before and just after the ACA, my own costs are about half of what I actually pay.  That is not acceptable.
Quote

You are also free to not wear a seatbelt.  You won't go to jail.  But they will fine you, so that you share in the costs that society incurs from people who don't wear seat belts.  The individual mandate penalty is fully analogous. Either follow the rules, or pay the fine.

See, that is exactly what is wrong with the ACA.  I don't like your rules.

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #218 on: January 13, 2017, 07:13:30 PM »
I don't see how defunding doesn't blow up in the Repubs face.  So no subsidies and no Medicaid.  Which will cause havoc.
How will they blame Dems for this when they are the ones who did it?

Here's one possibility:  Republicans move forward with the "repeal and delay" tactic, passing a reconciliation bill that defunds Obamacare but doesn't become effective until some future date.  Ostensibly, the delay in effectiveness is to allow Obamacare to continue to operate during the transition to a post-Obamacare world.  But, as the Republicans surely know, even a delayed-effectiveness repeal will immediately wreak havoc on the insurance market as long as uncertainty continues to exist regarding Obamacare's replacement (or lack of replacement).  So Obamacare would collapse at a time when it is technically still in effect, allowing the Republicans to spin the story as Obamacare's own failure.

You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates as HI companies struggle to keep up with the effect of the ACA as implemented.  If your scenario does come to pass (which seems pretty likely, to me) it would only speed up the collapse that would happen anyway. (Baring reform to the ACA)
The ACA is not going to collapse on its own.  That is pure BS.  Even if the rates go up the subsidies go up as well so most people are not affected to a great degree.  Take away the subsidies and Medicaid and they WILL collapse it.  But that is the strategy they will use.  And say look it doesn't work!  Dems must not let them get away from the fact that THEY sabotaged it on purpose and THEY will own the collapse.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #219 on: January 13, 2017, 07:14:14 PM »
You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates

Let's not be dishonest about this. Health insurance rates have risen more slowly under the ACA than they did before it was enacted, and insurers are now pulling out of markets they only ever got into in the first place because of the ACA subsidies.   


Let's not be dishonest about this.  The bolded portion is a lie.  Not just wrong.  A lie. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #220 on: January 13, 2017, 07:17:27 PM »
I'm not sure why you're so hard on the free-loaders;

I'm not hard on the freeloaders, I think they should freeload.  Children, for example, need to have medical care paid for by someone else.  Also disabled people, and the impoverished, and the catastrophically unlucky.
You stated Quindon should not have the right to consume healthcare without paying for it. I think that is being pretty hard on them. I think so many people enjoy that 'right', that one more would not make a difference, and should be covered the same way all the others are.  I don't see why one free loader is worse than the others.

oldtoyota

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #221 on: January 13, 2017, 08:33:45 PM »
If they come up with a system that is better than the ACA, this is perfectly fine with me. I am not loyal to any party or a system (except Capitalism, which rocks!).

I wouldn't necessarily call Obamacare a total disaster, but it certainly did not help reduce the cost of healthcare for us.

Though I agree that ACA was very flawed I doubt they are planning on setting up something more effective at helping more Americans. If they were interested in doing that they would have been working on that before repealing the ACA.

I would gladly be proven wrong though.

People have told me the ACA was originally created by Republicans and modeled on Romney's healthcare plan for MA. Do they now just want to abandon it to hurt the Obama legacy?

I think these Senators will go down in history as some of the worst.

oldtoyota

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #222 on: January 13, 2017, 08:36:40 PM »
I wouldn't necessarily call Obamacare a total disaster, but it certainly did not help reduce the cost of healthcare for us.

I don't think there is much we can do to reduce the cost of healthcare outside of government price-setting or care rationing.

Compared with the average OECD nation, the US has twice as many MRIs and CT scans, 67% more bypasses, 86% more knee replacements, and 27% more c-sections.

We spend a lot on healthcare because we consume a lot of healthcare.

I get why people were frustrated by the ACA, but I'm not sure how much better we can do.

This brings up a good point. We eat terribly, don't walk or exercise, and work too much. Then we complain we have high healthcare costs.

We have more c-sections because doctors get paid to do them. If we did not have hospitals needed to keep their anesthesiologists billing, then we'd have fewer c-sections.


Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #223 on: January 13, 2017, 11:17:52 PM »
I think these Senators will go down in history as some of the worst.

As a student of history myself, I'd have to say that they have a pretty high bar to jump.

http://www.theprogressiveprofessor.com/?tag=ten-worst-senators-in-american-history


Gin1984

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #224 on: January 14, 2017, 06:57:57 AM »
You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates

Let's not be dishonest about this. Health insurance rates have risen more slowly under the ACA than they did before it was enacted, and insurers are now pulling out of markets they only ever got into in the first place because of the ACA subsidies.   


Let's not be dishonest about this.  The bolded portion is a lie.  Not just wrong.  A lie.
It is the complete truth, if you compare apples to apples.  Not plans that did not actually cover you if you get sick and not plans that did not.

wenchsenior

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #225 on: January 14, 2017, 09:35:14 AM »
So I've been listening to a ton of policy wonk discussions about this pending Repeal and Replace.  As of a couple months ago, all had been certain that this would happen once the GOP got control of all branches of government. This was based not just on public GOP stance, but on many of the policy analysts and journalists convos with politicians who were 100% committed to doing away with the law and putting in a better conservative plan.

Now, with all eyes on them and pressure building, these same policy analysts and journalists are becoming MUCH less certain how things will go. Their consensus is that the GOP rank and file (ie, regular Senators and Congresspeople who were not involved in crafting the handful of alternative plans that are currently floating around) never paid much attention to 1) exactly what the ACA was and how it was currently working (ie they didn't really understand the law they were against); 2) what was popular and unpopular about the law; 3) what the conservative alternatives involved.   

In other words, most GOP politicians just kept hearing from their most rabid base "law is evil and everyone hates it, repeal it or we will vote you out" and from senior members "law is evil, and we have a much better conservative plan".  And they took all this on faith and happily carried water for this message.

But now, with the reality staring them in the face, a lot of them have actually started looking in detail at the law they are about to do away with, and looking at the supposed alternatives being proposed by the GOP leadership. And they are starting to hold public hearings to find out what people truly like and dislike.

And guess what?  People do indeed dislike some parts of the law (the mandate, the often high deductibles, the limited plan options in some parts of the country) and that's fine, since the GOP also dislikes those things. But the public LOVES a few parts of the law (preexisting condition coverage, kids on parents plans, mandated coverage of preventative care, etc). Unfortunately for the GOP rank and file, they are now looking at their alternative plans and finding that the 'conservative' options mostly are fundamentally based around increasing the things that people most dislike about the current law, while simultaneously not having a workable funding mechanism to allow inclusion of the things people really LIKE.

During the discussions I've heard, one policy analyst compared it to the crash and burn of W's Social Security privatization scheme within his own party. That occurred for basically the same reason: rank and file took it on faith for years that privatization was sooo much better than current SS. But when they actually had to sit down with the proposals and pay attention to the details, they suddenly realized that to make privatization work they had to somehow come up with trillions of dollars to cover the gap for paying for the current SS recipients (because privatization would take all those contributions away and put them in the ownership of the current workers), they all freaked out and had no appetite for paying for that gap. Hence, the scheme went dead in the water almost immediately.

Something similar seems to be churning up now.  In addition to this, the GOP governors of the states that accepted the Medicaid expansion are also starting to make noise and put pressure on their Congresspeople about 1) losing the federal Medicaid money, and 2) the fact that they will be on the front lines dealing with the millions of poor people who will lose coverage under the existing GOP plans.

Add to this the fact that Trump ran on making sure everyone stayed covered for less money, and on not touching Medicare/Medicaid, and also the fact that Trump keeps insisting that repeal and replace will happen simultaneously (which is giving Ryan, McConnell et al. fits because they would never promise that and would much rather 'Repeal and Delay' until after the mid-terms) and now the future of this repeal is very uncertain.

Further, here is a truly deadly possibility: what if the GOP repeals and replaces, and the GOP healthcare law fails or proves unpopular? The GOP knows that the story will then be, well, we tried the Dems version of private health care insurance reform, and we tried the GOPs version of private health care insurance reform, and guess what the next option is? Single payer! And the GOP will do almost anything to avoid that storyline.

So....There is now a decent chance developing that the GOP will have to "repeal" the law in name only, keep nearly all of it intact, tinker to fix the things that aren't working very well (which is what the Dems have been pushing all along), rename it Trump-care or Ryan-care or whatever, and continue on their merry way patting themselves on the back for their awesome health care plan.

Which, given that this WAS originally the GOP's awesome heath care alternative back in the 1990s, would be very ironic.

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #226 on: January 14, 2017, 09:40:15 AM »
You are acting as if insurers have not already pulled out of market places in several areas and that prices haven't been rising in double digit rates

Let's not be dishonest about this. Health insurance rates have risen more slowly under the ACA than they did before it was enacted, and insurers are now pulling out of markets they only ever got into in the first place because of the ACA subsidies.   


Let's not be dishonest about this.  The bolded portion is a lie.  Not just wrong.  A lie.
It is the complete truth, if you compare apples to apples.  Not plans that did not actually cover you if you get sick and not plans that did not.

You don't even have to make that caveat for my statement to be true, but thanks for trying.

Q just flat out called me a liar, without any evidence to support his position.  Maybe do five minutes of googling next time before you go on the attack.

You would have found that rate of premium increases from 2011 to 2016 (~20%) was smaller than it was from 2006 to 2011 (~31%) OR from the five years before that, 2001 to 2006 (~63%).  The ACA indisputably coincided with slower cost increases for health insurance.  You can argue about whether or not the effect was due to the ACA or something else, but you can't really argue that it made rates go up faster.  That's just counterfactual.

Not that being counterfactual matters anymore.  I'm sure if you just call me a liar loudly enough and often enough, everyone will believe you despite the data.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 11:49:31 AM by sol »

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #227 on: January 14, 2017, 10:38:00 AM »
Seniors will get a great surprise when the Part D 'donut hole' which from 2013 - 2020 was scheduled to close under the ACA, opens back up.  The Repubs are hammering a land mine.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #228 on: January 14, 2017, 03:14:12 PM »

You would have found that rate of premium increases from 2011 to 2016 (~20%) was smaller than it was from 2006 to 2011 (~31%) OR from the five years before that, 2001 to 2006 (~63%).  The ACA indisputably coincided with slower cost increases for health insurance.  You can argue about whether or not the effect was due to the ACA or something else, but you can't really argue that it made rates go up faster.  That's just counterfactual.

Not that being counterfactual matters anymore.  I'm sure if you just call me a liar loudly enough and often enough, everyone will believe you despite the data.

Perhaps you didn't intend to lie, but you just repeated one. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/07/28/overwhelming-evidence-that-obamacare-caused-premiums-to-increase-substantially/#4966e0dd46e3

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First, unlike Adler and Ginsburg’s approach, Brookings 2014 study used actual data and found that “enrollment-weighted premiums in the individual health insurance market increased by 24.4 percent beyond what they would have had they simply followed…trends.” Second, S&P Global Institute found that average individual market medical costs increased substantially between 2013 and 2015, up an estimated 69%. Third, 2014 insurer data shows that premiums for individual market Qualified Health Plans (QHPs), ACA-compliant plans certified to be sold on exchanges, were much higher than premiums for individual market non-QHPs, mostly plans in existence before 2014 that did not comply with the ACA.

I call your bullshit and raise you a turd. 

realDonaldTrump

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #229 on: January 14, 2017, 03:24:35 PM »
Instead of Obamacare you will get something terrific :) IE Bullshit

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #230 on: January 14, 2017, 03:26:53 PM »
I call your bullshit and raise you a turd.

Just keep saying it, louder and louder, and I'm sure you'll convince some people.  Maybe call me a total loser next time, and give me a catchy and insulting nickname.

I will leave it up to the reader to evaluate that Forbes hit piece on its own merits and draw their own conclusions.  The flaws seem so obvious to me that I don't even feel compelled to point them out.  Read critically, consider the sources, make up your own mind.

Not that any of this matters anymore anyway.  Health insurance was a disaster before the ACA, the Democrats had their chance to make changes, now it's the Republican's turn.  Hopefully they offer some solutions that people like.

realDonaldTrump

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #231 on: January 14, 2017, 03:38:57 PM »
And pray to God that Mr Trump is not impeached because next people in line will get rid of Medicare as well.

Now that will derail your FIRE even if you have millions of dollars in investable assets. Good to know people like me and Mr. MoneyMustache have dual citizenship with access to Universal Health Care.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #232 on: January 14, 2017, 05:52:39 PM »
I call your bullshit and raise you a turd.

Just keep saying it, louder and louder, and I'm sure you'll convince some people.  Maybe call me a total loser next time, and give me a catchy and insulting nickname.

I could say the same for you, but I'm sure that you already have.
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I will leave it up to the reader to evaluate that Forbes hit piece on its own merits and draw their own conclusions.  The flaws seem so obvious to me that I don't even feel compelled to point them out.  Read critically, consider the sources, make up your own mind.
I did that already.  Kind of a cop-out to complain that I didn't cite any sources, after I challenge your unsupported claim, then declare that you don't feel compelled to point out the flaws in the reference that I provided, again without any references of your own.  You are more of a typical liberal than I had thought you for, Sol.  You stake your position based upon emotions and then latch onto whatever data you can find to justify that position.  How often do you dismiss such references provided for you, after so much complaining that others don't provide references, by deciding that it's just a "hit piece"? 

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #233 on: January 14, 2017, 06:45:42 PM »
How often do you dismiss such references provided for you, after so much complaining that others don't provide references, by deciding that it's just a "hit piece"?

You're new here so I'll cut you some slack.  If you feel my posts to this forum are unhelpful, factually incorrect, or motivated by emotion, then you haven't yet read enough of the content I have contributed. 

You came here and and started making wild and unsupported claims about American health insurance, with clear disregard for the tens of thousands of words we have already written addressing your exact complaints.  Like twenty trolls before you, you have selectively ignored every coherent argument made against you, twisted the positions of the people with whom you claim to want open debate, doubled down when proven wrong time and time again, and misdirected and backtracked at every opportunity.  You are not interested in learning.  You are only here to complain.

So go ahead.  Complain.  Please write ten more posts about how much worse off we are as a nation with the ACA than we were without it.  You're going to get exactly what you want, because Congress is going to repeal the ACA.  You will ultimately win the argument about whether or not the ACA should stay, because it was already decided by the election of Donald Trump.  There is no longer any point in me or anyone else trying to defend a law that is already doomed.

We've already established that facts don't matter.  For every OMB report about the budget impact of a particular law, some partisan think tank will publish a conflicting report and the American public will think it is just as truthful as the OMB one.  Truth doesn't matter, as long as someone disagrees with it.  This is the America people like you have created.  It is yours to own and command, I guess.  Good luck!

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #234 on: January 14, 2017, 06:52:12 PM »

You don't even have to make that caveat for my statement to be true, but thanks for trying.

Q just flat out called me a liar, without any evidence to support his position.  Maybe do five minutes of googling next time before you go on the attack.

You would have found that rate of premium increases from 2011 to 2016 (~20%) was smaller than it was from 2006 to 2011 (~31%) OR from the five years before that, 2001 to 2006 (~63%).  The ACA indisputably coincided with slower cost increases for health insurance.  You can argue about whether or not the effect was due to the ACA or something else, but you can't really argue that it made rates go up faster.  That's just counterfactual.

Not that being counterfactual matters anymore.  I'm sure if you just call me a liar loudly enough and often enough, everyone will believe you despite the data.

You are forgetting that the reason these price increases were lower were because the government absorbed any losses for the insurance companies. There was no need to raise prices if profits were made up by tax money.  Now that this has ended, the projected increase for 2017 is 22%. That is 22% in a single year, three times the amount of the previous year. So while it could be said that the ACA has 'slowed' the rise of health care premiums for select years (which was actually happening anyway, without the ACA, as evidenced by your numbers) in reality the plan just shifted the costs around.

So while not a lie (because Sol no doubt believed it to be true) the statement was not completely accurate, nor a full accounting of the facts.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #235 on: January 14, 2017, 08:16:18 PM »
How often do you dismiss such references provided for you, after so much complaining that others don't provide references, by deciding that it's just a "hit piece"?

You're new here so I'll cut you some slack.  If you feel my posts to this forum are unhelpful, factually incorrect, or motivated by emotion, then you haven't yet read enough of the content I have contributed. 

Oh, I'm sure that you have your moments.  But that doesn't excuse such easily dis-proven "facts" being thrown around.  You have yet to even tell me where you pulled those claims from, yet you are the same person complaining that I don't bother to support my. claims.

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You came here and and started making wild and unsupported claims about American health insurance, with clear disregard for the tens of thousands of words we have already written addressing your exact complaints. Like twenty trolls before you, you have selectively ignored every coherent argument made against you, twisted the positions of the people with whom you claim to want open debate, doubled down when proven wrong time and time again, and misdirected and backtracked at every opportunity.  You are not interested in learning.  You are only here to complain.

I came to this forum to learn about a completely different topic than politics.  You might be a star with finances, but that doesn't mean that you know anything else worth studying.  I truly regret getting sucked down this rabbit hole with the lot of you.  If I could figure out how to keep these threads from showing up in my "new replies" page, I would do that.  The truth here is that you twisted me in knots with BS, and then get to call me a troll; and then believe that your arguments are coherent?  I don't even know how to relate to you.
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So go ahead.  Complain.  Please write ten more posts about how much worse off we are as a nation with the ACA than we were without it.  You're going to get exactly what you want, because Congress is going to repeal the ACA.  You will ultimately win the argument about whether or not the ACA should stay, because it was already decided by the election of Donald Trump.  There is no longer any point in me or anyone else trying to defend a law that is already doomed.

Then why are you doing it?

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We've already established that facts don't matter.  For every OMB report about the budget impact of a particular law, some partisan think tank will publish a conflicting report and the American public will think it is just as truthful as the OMB one.  Truth doesn't matter, as long as someone disagrees with it.  This is the America people like you have created.  It is yours to own and command, I guess.  Good luck!

People like me?  Do you talk like this in real life?

CDP45

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #236 on: January 14, 2017, 11:52:31 PM »
I love how all the statists like Sol are born-again libertarians and federalists fighting against the big bad national government.

This health care system is such a mess, and Obama barely escaped in time to not suffer the implosion his partisan disaster accelerated.

Anywho, I just leave the obamabots 2 facts:

1) Guantanamo bay is still open
2) Obama is the only president in history to be at war continuously for 2 straight terms.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #237 on: January 15, 2017, 12:00:09 AM »
2) Obama is the only president in history to be at war continuously for 2 straight terms.

Is this true?

Edit: --- seems to be. Wow; interesting fact for recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #238 on: January 15, 2017, 12:06:09 AM »
I love how all the statists like Sol are born-again libertarians and federalists fighting against the big bad national government.

This health care system is such a mess, and Obama barely escaped in time to not suffer the implosion his partisan disaster accelerated.

Anywho, I just leave the obamabots 2 facts:

1) Guantanamo bay is still open
2) Obama is the only president in history to be at war continuously for 2 straight terms.

1) You clearly have not researched this issue at all

2) Agree this is a problem but I would attribute it to the trajectory of our government as a whole, with BHO being incidentally in power during the culmination of decades of terrible foreign policy. This is not to say he isn't complicit, just that he is one in a long line of interventionist executives.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 11:20:28 AM by Lagom »

CDP45

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #239 on: January 15, 2017, 11:11:48 AM »
Are you a freeloader?

Does your objection to being compelled (with paltry fines) to buy health insurance also extend to being compelled to buy disability and unemployment insurance, both of which you also current buy with your taxes?  To being compelled to buy old age insurance (aka social security)?  To being compelled to buy national defense, or mail delivery?  You benefit from having all of things available to you, whether you use them or not and whether you pay for them or not.  I think you should pay.

Sol, we all stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before us, so we are all freeloaders. I wish you would question your premise:

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You benefit from having all of things available to you, whether you use them or not and whether you pay for them or not.  I think you should pay.

Couldn't I use that premise to undermine your opposition to invading Iraq and the NSA wiretapping? There are "benefits" supposedly that need to be paid for.

I hope you are strong in your opinions against the GOP and Trump, but just remember theirs is just another flavor of kool-aid.

I recommend abstaining.

brooklynguy

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #240 on: January 15, 2017, 01:03:10 PM »
You're new here

I suspect this is not the case.  Is that you, MoonShadow?

scottish

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #241 on: January 15, 2017, 01:43:20 PM »
Quidnon doesn't sound quite like MoonShadow.    Similarities, but not the same.

Why does the GOP have such a big problem with single payer health care?    This would move Murica up to the level of the rest of the developed world!


Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #242 on: January 15, 2017, 05:57:38 PM »
You're new here

I suspect this is not the case.  Is that you, MoonShadow?

I'm guessing that you were comparing to another forum member that sounds like I do, but I searched for that name and couldn't find anything.  But, no.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 06:04:31 PM by Quidnon? »

brooklynguy

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #243 on: January 15, 2017, 09:15:27 PM »
I'm guessing that you were comparing to another forum member that sounds like I do

Yes, he was another forum member, the content of whose posts reminded me very much of your own, who shared not only your proclivity for applying both bold and italics to the same word but also your apparent fondness for the ampersand and your relatively heavy (and often grammatically incorrect) use of the semicolon, and who purportedly resided in Louisville, Kentucky, a city with which you are apparently intimately familiar, and who (on at least three occasions) asserted to have a personal dream to retire aboard a sailing houseboat of the type embodied by the vessel named "Quidnon" (or otherwise cited the blog devoted to it).  Curious...

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #244 on: January 15, 2017, 09:19:40 PM »
Quidnon doesn't sound quite like MoonShadow.    Similarities, but not the same.

Why does the GOP have such a big problem with single payer health care?    This would move Murica up to the level of the rest of the developed world!

Why do democrats? They had a filibuster proof majority and an agenda to enact healthcare reform. They were much better set up to pass it than the GOP is now.

But to answer the question, basically they are against it because it would raise taxes and expand the size of the government, while removing the freedom for people to make their own choices.

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #245 on: January 15, 2017, 11:49:32 PM »
Quidnon doesn't sound quite like MoonShadow.    Similarities, but not the same.

Why does the GOP have such a big problem with single payer health care?    This would move Murica up to the level of the rest of the developed world!

Why do democrats? They had a filibuster proof majority and an agenda to enact healthcare reform. They were much better set up to pass it than the GOP is now.

But to answer the question, basically they are against it because it would raise taxes and expand the size of the government, while removing the freedom for people to make their own choices.

Aren't you in favor of single-payer? As far as I can tell, the Dems didn't go further because BHO had this insane idea that compromise could lead to truly bipartisan progress. Or maybe he honestly believed the ACA was better than single-payer. Pity.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #246 on: January 15, 2017, 11:55:21 PM »
Huge fan of single payer. But the question was why the GOP dislikes it.

Not sure why the Democrats didn't go for it either. Maybe they know something we don't, and it could actually never ever work? Or maybe they just dislike people having healthcare.

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #247 on: January 16, 2017, 12:06:17 AM »
Huge fan of single payer. But the question was why the GOP dislikes it.

Not sure why the Democrats didn't go for it either. Maybe they know something we don't

One reason that I have heard suggested to explain why some Democrats have sometimes not supported universal healthcare is "union contracts".

The larger and more effective unions have successfully negotiated better health insurance packages for the members, in exchange for lower wages.    If the health insurance goes away, it's not like they are likely to get those wages back.  So the Republican talking point is that unions have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and are one of the largest bundlers of donations to Democrats, so therefore Democrats should oppose universal healthcare.

The problem I see with that is that we just don't.  You just don't see Democrats opposing universal healthcare, as a party.  A couple of individuals here and there, maybe, but generally speaking the party platform has always favored extending more health care to more people, by whatever means possible.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #248 on: January 16, 2017, 12:12:44 AM »
Huge fan of single payer. But the question was why the GOP dislikes it.

Not sure why the Democrats didn't go for it either. Maybe they know something we don't

One reason that I have heard suggested to explain why some Democrats have sometimes not supported universal healthcare is "union contracts".

The larger and more effective unions have successfully negotiated better health insurance packages for the members, in exchange for lower wages.    If the health insurance goes away, it's not like they are likely to get those wages back.  So the Republican talking point is that unions have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and are one of the largest bundlers of donations to Democrats, so therefore Democrats should oppose universal healthcare.

The problem I see with that is that we just don't.  You just don't see Democrats opposing universal healthcare, as a party.  A couple of individuals here and there, maybe, but generally speaking the party platform has always favored extending more health care to more people, by whatever means possible.

Thank you for the insight. So since that explination is not the reason, do you have any insight on why the democrats didn't push for this when they had a filibuster-proof majority in both houses of congress and the executive branch whole-heartedly supporting healthcare reform?

Cathy

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #249 on: January 16, 2017, 12:18:30 AM »
Yes, he was another forum member, the content of whose posts reminded me very much of your own ...

Stylometrist extraordinaire brooklynguy reminds us here of a point that I last posted about on March 29, 2015: namely, it's very difficult to stay anonymous, on a forum or elsewhere, if you give people a nontrivial corpus of text to analyse. This applies not only to picking out members who adopt new usernames (and I have my suspicions about several other users as well) but also to the more general point of anonymity relative to life outside of the MMM forums. Anybody familiar with your writing elsewhere (such as in an employment context) could potentially identify you on this forum even if your posts are otherwise carefully sanitised of personal information.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:25:05 AM by Cathy »