Author Topic: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds  (Read 4894 times)

imolina

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Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« on: July 15, 2018, 12:24:09 AM »
We have some rental properties in different countries as we are Canadian expats, but we are thinking of selling them all as we have had some bad experiences and don't really want the stress; however, we will put all the money in index funds.
Has anyone sold all their real estate to put everything in index funds?, any regrets?. I am afraid of having all eggs in one basket, but I don't want the stress of real estate.

marty998

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 02:07:32 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

Chaplin

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 01:15:42 PM »
I would go that route. Maybe one rental property more locally might provide some nice cash flow and diversification, but if you're only putting up with the hassle because of a perceived diversification make the switch and sleep better.

We recently did some geographic arbitrage by selling in Vancouver and buying Victoria. We decreased our real estate assets by over $200K and have so far added about $130K in index funds. The rest is waiting for me to open a taxable account.

plantingourpennies

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 01:30:12 PM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 01:53:13 PM »
We have some rental properties in different countries as we are Canadian expats, but we are thinking of selling them all as we have had some bad experiences and don't really want the stress; however, we will put all the money in index funds.
Has anyone sold all their real estate to put everything in index funds?, any regrets?. I am afraid of having all eggs in one basket, but I don't want the stress of real estate.

Other than purchasing my home I never invested in real estate because like you imolina, I didn't want the stress.

I do not want to deal with "bad tenants" who damage property/don't pay rent on time, property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc.

I much prefer to invest in low-ER, broadly diversified index funds.


SwordGuy

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 06:00:45 PM »
I think that people overestimate the problems.   I spend very little time on my properties once they are rented out.  If you are picky about tenants, hire a good property management company to deal with the little stuff, and offer a good product, you are likely to have few problems.

imolina

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 09:30:20 PM »
I think that people overestimate the problems.   I spend very little time on my properties once they are rented out.  If you are picky about tenants, hire a good property management company to deal with the little stuff, and offer a good product, you are likely to have few problems.

I had a tenant in Florida that was really good and young but unfortunately had an unattended death in the property (not an easy situation). Also, a local tenant here where I live committed fraud against me (long story), so even if you try to do things right, things can get out of control.

wjinghlw

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 05:23:49 AM »
I have some C class properties and let me tell you, the only way I sleep at night is hiring good property management. If I had to do it again, I think I would still allocate funds to SFH rentals, but focus on class B or better. It’s a common pit fall for people to underestimate the amount of work/headache associated with rental properties. I have seen a lot of burnt out landlords. Although if u ever get to talking to one you can probably sweet talk your way to a good deal.


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jlcnuke

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 05:33:19 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

RE didn't seem very local in 2007-2009...

SwordGuy

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 05:41:31 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

RE didn't seem very local in 2007-2009...


If you are renting them out, you're not selling, so all is well...

jlcnuke

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 05:44:45 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

RE didn't seem very local in 2007-2009...


If you are renting them out, you're not selling, so all is well...
If you're not selling stocks in the same period you could use the same logic in them...

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« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 06:47:14 AM by jlcnuke »

SwordGuy

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 05:51:34 AM »
I think that people overestimate the problems.   I spend very little time on my properties once they are rented out.  If you are picky about tenants, hire a good property management company to deal with the little stuff, and offer a good product, you are likely to have few problems.

I had a tenant in Florida that was really good and young but unfortunately had an unattended death in the property (not an easy situation). Also, a local tenant here where I live committed fraud against me (long story), so even if you try to do things right, things can get out of control.


Sure, and if you rent long enough, it will happen.


A competent property management company will deal with most of the details.   Your pricing should include setting aside reserves for dammit situations like this.


I look at it this way.  My current two rental properties will bring in $4000 to $5000 a year profit each.   I spend maybe 8 hours a year for that money.    That's $1000 to $1,250 per hour.   

Every so many years, a dammit will show up that will take an extra 24 hours of work to deal with.   So, for that year, I'll only make $250 to $312.50 an hour for a whopping total of 32 hours that year.

Such a headache.   Woe is me.   Cry me a river, will you?  :)

In fact, I'm such a masochist that I'm working on getting rental #3 ready to rent by the end of August and I close on rental #4 on August 2nd.   

As soon as I get those on line I'll be looking for rentals #5 and #6.



bognish

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 10:34:19 AM »
I had a 4 bedroom rental condo near a university. For years one person would move out at a time and get replaced by remaining roommates friends. Then about 3 years ago they all moved out at once. The place needed a refresh: floors, painting yard etc. After doing all the work to get it nice I didn't want to deal with the risk of having a bad tenant trash the place. Rent and deposits are low in the area so its easy to do more damage than a deposit will cover. I sold the place and dumped the money in with existing funds in a total market fund. I am so happy to be done with rentals. I understand the business case for real estate, but it not worth the stress it gives me.

bacchi

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 10:49:51 AM »
I had a 4 bedroom rental condo near a university. For years one person would move out at a time and get replaced by remaining roommates friends. Then about 3 years ago they all moved out at once. The place needed a refresh: floors, painting yard etc. After doing all the work to get it nice I didn't want to deal with the risk of having a bad tenant trash the place. Rent and deposits are low in the area so its easy to do more damage than a deposit will cover. I sold the place and dumped the money in with existing funds in a total market fund. I am so happy to be done with rentals. I understand the business case for real estate, but it not worth the stress it gives me.

Yep. I just started landlording again and I remember why I sold my previous properties. Whatta pain-in-the-ass. Index funds require no work at all beyond withdrawing once a year and rebalancing once every few years.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 03:14:38 PM »
Some People get stressed over their index funds just as easily. End of the day , do what lets you sleep at night. I wish I could find a rental property for some diversification but I just never seem to be able to find one that makes sense.

marty998

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 05:31:47 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

RE didn't seem very local in 2007-2009...


If you are renting them out, you're not selling, so all is well...
If you're not selling sticks in the same people you could use the same logic in them...


Selling sticks? do you mean selling stocks?

yes - shares fell more than 50% too.... when there's blood on the floor it's generally contributed by many donors.

Though yes point taken, I can see the benefit of holding properties in different regions. So long as you've got the capital to do so :)

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 06:23:33 PM »
I have some C class properties and let me tell you, the only way I sleep at night is hiring good property management. If I had to do it again, I think I would still allocate funds to SFH rentals, but focus on class B or better. It’s a common pit fall for people to underestimate the amount of work/headache associated with rental properties. I have seen a lot of burnt out landlords. Although if u ever get to talking to one you can probably sweet talk your way to a good deal.


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Long-term successful self-made real estate investors I know have always traded up when they could.  Most start with class C because that's what they can afford, adding sweat equity and putting up with headaches (ie, risk).  When they can afford to, they sell out to reinvest in better and better properties.

wjinghlw

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2018, 05:28:00 AM »
I have some C class properties and let me tell you, the only way I sleep at night is hiring good property management. If I had to do it again, I think I would still allocate funds to SFH rentals, but focus on class B or better. It’s a common pit fall for people to underestimate the amount of work/headache associated with rental properties. I have seen a lot of burnt out landlords. Although if u ever get to talking to one you can probably sweet talk your way to a good deal.


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Long-term successful self-made real estate investors I know have always traded up when they could.  Most start with class C because that's what they can afford, adding sweat equity and putting up with headaches (ie, risk).  When they can afford to, they sell out to reinvest in better and better properties.


I am beginning to see the light now regarding better properties because of the headaches. Another issue regarding class C is the exit strategy because there is minimal profit on sale and hard to find buyers. I’m however planning on listing some of the properties on the market targeting investors. Also as tenants move out on some of the nicer properties I was thinking of doing rehab to target sales to home owners. I keep talking myself out of it because revenue is good (but earnings poor) and praying gentrification would hit the area.


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Barbaebigode

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2018, 06:40:54 AM »
Not sure if it's a option for the OP, but in my country there are real state funds that own buildings and rent them. You buy shares like you would buy individual stocks and every month you get your share of the rent. Easy to diversify and hassle free. A substantial part of my savings is invested in those funds.

powskier

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 09:51:08 AM »
An index fund is much more diversified than a handful of properties. You're actually upgrading to hundreds or thousands of baskets.

I would disagree on this. RE is local so if the properties are spread out across different geographies they may be well diversified.

An index fund is diversified in comparison to holding individual stocks, but isn't diversified in comparison to different asset classes (bonds, RE, cash, precious metals, private businesses, etc).

We have a local rental that provides good cashflow for us. We're keeping it in our portfolio and treat it like a bond that can't be easily sold in a downturn.

RE didn't seem very local in 2007-2009...
Actually it was. My area continued to climb and yes, it is in the US.

Lmoot

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Re: Selling real estate to put everything on index funds
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2018, 03:21:48 AM »
I think that people overestimate the problems.   I spend very little time on my properties once they are rented out.  If you are picky about tenants, hire a good property management company to deal with the little stuff, and offer a good product, you are likely to have few problems.

I've lucked out with the 4 sets of tenants I've had so far, in that I knew them beforehand (3/4 I actively pursued to become my tenants). I've never had to advertise my property. I charge what they can pay, but in 4 years I've never had a consistently late payment (errant late payment here and there, and only by a week or less), and I consider it an investment in a good tenant. I also stipulate in the lease that they take on the basic roles of property managers in exchange for below market rent, only notifying me of major issues. They take care of yard work, and pay out of pocket for pest control (I only pay for termite control/monitoring because of the expense of damage), and they schedule and meet with service providers on the property (after I authorize service), and they report back to me...or depending on the service I'll speak with the provider over the phone while they are at the property. I'd rather split the savings of hiring a management firm, with myself and the tenant, especially if that means I can control the quality of the tenant (all within legal parameters of course).

There are quite a few things in my favor though. The property is located in a desirable area, walking distance to a campus that hires low-paid professionals (I've learned that gratefulness is more binding than a contract) in the science field, and I happen to work there part time, so it's easy for me to "fish" for tenants. Because of the lifestyle value of the area, and convenience of walking to work, I have never been turned down "courting" someone to live there; leases have been broken lol. So I plan on buying most if not all of my properties in this same area, and keeping a low prof. I'm not out for guts and glory....I'll gladly take a hit on profit for a quality tenant and less headache. The less negative experiences I have, the more likely I am to continue and expand with real estate investing, and the more money I can earn in the long-run.

I genuinely enjoy helping someone find a place to live that changes their life for the better, and I like nurturing a relationship with my tenants to the point it really feels like a partnership. My favorite experience as a landlord, was working with a tenant to figure out a plumbing issue, literally YouTubing it together and shopping at Home Depot, and ultimately fixing it without having to call a plumber. We both got valuable experience and gained confidence. I've had more than one tenant tell me that helping out with maintaining a house has inspired them to work towards homeownership. I know that woowoo stuff isn't for everyone, but it's nice when you get invited to a tenants' housewarming party :)

And I'm not totally blind to earning profit. This area continues to rise in value and the neighborhood is changing for the better, so I feel I can "give" in terms of rental profit without feeling like I'm leaving money on the table, since if I ever decide to sell properties in the future, I'll make out nicely. The facility that provided 1/2 of my tenants is not going anywhere. It's a tourist destination on city property (for over 50 years) and they just expanded, with future expansions on the way.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 03:44:57 AM by Lmoot »