Scary article about "How the Elderly Lose Their Rights"

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

Did y'all see this in the New Yorker (link below)? It scared the crap out of me and I can't stop thinking about it. I worry about my mother, but also about myself later on. It seems like having kids and spouse is no protection against this. I thought it might be of interest on this forum since there are folks here who are likely to have lots in terms of assets. Here's what I'm wondering:

How do I figure out what the guardianship laws are in my state? (NC) Is it law or policy that determines who can be a guardian and how that gets decided?

Is there a way to legally do something to my assets (or that my mom can do to hers) to prevent this kind of abuse? (Probably depends on the laws in my state?) Not that I have much in the way of assets yet. Can you preemptively establish guardianship to prevent someone random from doing it?

Any lawyer types out there who know anything about this?

Finally, how can there be that many evil people in the world? Unbelievable.

Here's the link.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights

It looks like there's an advocacy group that deals with this issue: http://aaapg.net/

[Pylortes]

Fascinating article, and scary.   To answer one of your questions, a Power of Attorney (in which the individual chooses who to appoint to represent them) would more than likely preclude any Guardianship/Conservatorship from being initiated.  Guardianships where the court gets involved really only come into play when prior arrangements were not set up and a need is identified and proven.   And most states would give preference to a suitable and competent family member being appointed.  The NV system of oversite of these cases sounds completely messed up.  Real reform is needed there.

[solon]

Can someone summarize the issue? What's the scam and how does it work?

[ixtap]

Can someone summarize the issue? What's the scam and how does it work?

Professional guardians get custody of someone, move them to cheaper care facilities, and drain off their savings in "fees."

This article references cases where the guardianship is initiated by the professional guardian, not by a case worker. It is unclear how they find their targets.

[meadow lark]

That makes me want to vomit. Utterly evil, and to have doctors and judges in collusion with it is insane.  The issue where I have been, by far, has been people who probably needed guardianship not getting it.

[WhiteTrashCash]

This is a problem created by individual states. In this case, Nevada is not just a state. It's a criminal enterprise. You should look at what they are doing to force people not to adopt solar power, because the fossil fuel industries own the politicians. That state is shady as Hell.

[bogart]

That is a scary/creepy article.

My dad lived and died in NC and had dementia for many years.  I was told that getting him declared incompetent would be difficult and exhausting (to be clear, this was after it was apparent to everyone interacting with him that he was, in fact, incompetent, though he was not incoherent.  Capable of expressing his wishes, yes, capable of planning or weighing alternatives, no).  So it may be that you are better protected than you'd be in other states.  As his daughter, I did make decisions on his behalf but I did not in fact have legal guardianship and I'm reasonably sure no one else could have gotten it (though in fairness I should say, no one would have wanted it anyway, and he had no assets to bilk). 

I myself have a mental note to connect with a CFP when I'm between 50 and 60 with the goal of finding a firm that I want to have a long-term relationship with and want to pay for some aspect(s) of managing my finances -- could be as little as once-a-year meetings at an hourly rate for a checkup, or could be more, depending on my circumstances and desires then.  I figure having someone with fiduciary responsibility charged with keeping an eye on things will be useful as I grow older and that it's better to start that while I'm still (hopefully) reasonably coherent.  I want a firm, not an individual, in case I'm not the first one of us (between me and the CFP) to kick the bucket.  It's my hope that in my later/less coherent years, this fiduciary can make sure that I don't get taken advantage of, even if I'm not in a position to protect my own interests anymore.

[joonifloofeefloo]

Professional guardians get custody of someone, move them to cheaper care facilities, and drain off their savings in "fees."

This article references cases where the guardianship is initiated by the professional guardian, not by a case worker. It is unclear how they find their targets.

!!!

[misshathaway]

Can someone summarize the issue? What's the scam and how does it work?

Professional guardians get custody of someone, move them to cheaper care facilities, and drain off their savings in "fees."

This article references cases where the guardianship is initiated by the professional guardian, not by a case worker. It is unclear how they find their targets.

This was on NPR too the day the article came out. There were a few more details. In the case from the article that happened in NV the visiting home health aides reported cleanliness and confusion problems to their agency and this was communicated directly to the scam guardian woman who filed the court guardianship.

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

Bogart, I'm really hoping that living in small town NC would mean this kind of thing is less likely, that the judges might not be corrupt (in that way, anyway). I would think that in small towns, these kinds of abuses would be more visible and maybe people would get up in arms about it, but who knows?

The CFP idea sounds good. That might be a better way to present it to my mom, who I think will be resistant to talking about this or taking any action. This also sounds like a good idea for me, but how do you know you can trust the CFP? Couldn't they bilk your estate with a bunch of unnecessary fees too?

[FireLane]

I have to assume the judges are getting kickbacks from the scammer "guardians," or are otherwise in on this scam somehow. No halfway competent judge would grant guardianship over an elderly person to a total stranger without proof of mental incompetence, a real hearing, or an attempt to contact any existing relatives.

There was a case a few years ago where a judge was getting paid off by the private prison companies to send teenagers to juvenile detention for the slightest misdemeanor. I bet something like that is happening here too.

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

Firelane, I got the impression that the guardians were getting doctors to sign off on the victims' incompetence, so I suppose the judge could say they were presented with evidence of their need for a guardian. Still, it seems there should have been a deeper look into whether the doctor had a long history with the patient, etc. I think any doctor who would just sign off on this with little to no knowledge of the patient is also a deplorable piece of fucking shit. It seems as if these scammers are checking all the boxes so things are "legal," but as we all know, just because something is legal, that don't make it right!

[KCalla]

A worrisome article, for sure.  Definitely makes living in Nevada in the golden years sound more risky.  We've set up some legal documents to try to reduce our own risk.  (powers of attorney, "living will", and trusts.  I also wonder if this would be much less likely in a continuing care senior living  situation.  My mom moved, last year, to an independent living apartment.  They also have assisted living and skilled nursing (what we used to call nursing home) care on campus.  She likes it.  This particular place is a nonprofit.  If you run out of money, they use your deposit (which was otherwise 90% refundable to her or beneficiaries).  Then if you run through that, there is money available to make up the difference between your monthly income, Medicaid and costs.  That is, you don't have to worry about running out of money before you run out of life.  My aunt lives in a similar, but larger for profit continuing care community in Maryland.  Her monthly costs are lower, probably because it is so much larger.  They have a similar arrangement.  The move in deposits were significant, both a little over $100,000 for 1 bedrooms.  Higher, of course, for larger independent living apartments. This "we won't kick you out if you run out of money" safeguard was not available in the area where my mother in law lives, so there is more concern for us in her memory care situation.  I know that a facility could go bankrupt, etc, so nothing is risk free.  It does seem like living in a smaller town, or anywhere where you are highly engaged in the community, would help.  I certainly hope there are prosecutions.  It was unfortunate to read that the "founders" of the movement were not gone after.

[letired]

You don't even need to be old. You just need to have lots of money. Britney Spears is still under some form of guardianship: https://www.ginsbergshulman.com/blog/britney-spearss-conservatorship-guardianship-is-still-in-place/

[bogart]

@Duchess I don't think any setup is perfect, particularly if one really is mentally incompetent (or too proud/independent/scared to seek help).  But CFP is a genuine professional qualification that should be (somewhat) regulated by the profession in terms of fees, etc., and the fiduciary requirement does mean that they "have to" act in your interest not theirs -- which I'd think could extend to fees at least at a really absurd level, i.e., there must be some plausible level between what's charged and the service they provide.

If you want a much more modest story to share with your mom, my dad's sister who died a few years ago basically also died with nothing but was cared for by family (she did not have dementia) and lived with a child.   She had modest income (SS and a small pension, I think) and wanted to use her money to do stuff like buy gifts for her grandkids but never had as much as she thought she should (in an "it all goes so quickly" sense).  Well, after she died it turned out she was subscribed to various (relatively) expensive stuff, monthly deliveries of fancy hair-care products and such.  If she'd shared her credit cards statements with anyone, they'd have seen (and could have helped her stop) this, but she wasn't "with it" enough to catch what was going on, but also not willing to share her info. (at that level) with anyone who could help.  Now I don't know if a CFP would catch that but again, it's an argument for having someone you can trust to keep an eye out for you seems like a good idea.

I hope to have family as well as a professional to strike a balance of people looking out for me, but of course that will depend on what the future holds -- an unknown!

[WhiteTrashCash]

One thing this article accomplished was dissuading me from considering Nevada for my retirement. I had been considering the state because they have no state income tax and the COL is fairly low. But I can't risk being imprisoned for no cause by their courts and having all my money stolen, so that state is off the table. Now that I'm aware of this issue, I'm going to have to do some research on other states to ensure I can avoid this problem.

[fuzzy math]

One thing this article accomplished was dissuading me from considering Nevada for my retirement. I had been considering the state because they have no state income tax and the COL is fairly low. But I can't risk being imprisoned for no cause by their courts and having all my money stolen, so that state is off the table. Now that I'm aware of this issue, I'm going to have to do some research on other states to ensure I can avoid this problem.

I'm pretty sure the press on this is going to cause some serious reform. Nothing like some national shaming to make things suddenly a priority. I hope that awful woman went to prison.

OP thanks for the article. It gives me some pause about how to keep me and my extended families affairs less vulnerable.

[MrsPete]

Well, after she died it turned out she was subscribed to various (relatively) expensive stuff, monthly deliveries of fancy hair-care products and such.  If she'd shared her credit cards statements with anyone, they'd have seen (and could have helped her stop) this, but she wasn't "with it" enough to catch what was going on, but also not willing to share her info. (at that level) with anyone who could help.  Now I don't know if a CFP would catch that but again, it's an argument for having someone you can trust to keep an eye out for you seems like a good idea.

My grandmother, who was very intelligent and had a college degree (unheard of for a woman born in 1911), fell into some of these issues in the last 2-3 years of her life.  She "subscribed" to a couple things without fully realizing what she was doing; then she couldn't figure out how to get out of them.  A couple times she purchased things, then wanted to return them, but wasn't sure HOW to do it -- so she'd give me the items and the receipts, saying I could have the money if I'd just go do it.  Another time she received a sales pitch about a reverse mortgage and asked me to read it for her, saying she wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.  This is a woman who worked in the business world quite successfully when she was younger! 

She was very proud, and I suspect she hid some financial mistakes from us; however, having seen that problem in motion, I think I'll be glad to pass off some financial tasks to my kids when I suspect I'm reaching that point.  I trust them way more than any stranger. 

[Miss Piggy]

I think this is happening to a guy down the street.  He has dementia and has been going downhill.  The neighbors had been trying to help him out -- taking him to get groceries, etc., -- but not getting overly involved.  Then late this summer some random person swooped in and started lining up caregivers, etc.   Immediately distanced him from the neighbors who had been helping.  We suspect they are after his house (dilapidated but the property alone would be worth $500k) and whatever other assets he might have.

He doesn't have any kids or other immediate heirs, so not really sure what can be done.  Part of me wants to look into it, but I don't want to stir things up.   It does seem he is getting better care now, so that is good.

PS:    I missed the question about how the scammers identify their targets.   In the case of my neighbor and his possible scammer, I think they probably just noticed the run-down property (it is very obvious in our otherwise pricey neighborhood -- DH and I noticed/commented on it the first time we walked by) and went up and knocked on the door.

lhamo, you could start by talking with the local police and asking them what your next steps could be. Also, if you have any idea what bank(s) your neighbor uses, go straight there (well, the local ones, anyway), and explain what you've seen. Bankers and financial advisors are trained to watch for these sorts of things (new "best friends," new POAs who quickly make large withdrawals, etc.), but sometimes the scammers are very, very good. Tell them you suspect possible elder financial abuse.

[PizzaSteve]

One thing this article accomplished was dissuading me from considering Nevada for my retirement. I had been considering the state because they have no state income tax and the COL is fairly low. But I can't risk being imprisoned for no cause by their courts and having all my money stolen, so that state is off the table. Now that I'm aware of this issue, I'm going to have to do some research on other states to ensure I can avoid this problem.

Ahmen.  The fact that this appears tacitly supported by the judiciary and legislature makes me want to boycott the state, wholesale.

[bogart]

I think I'll be glad to pass off some financial tasks to my kids when I suspect I'm reaching that point.  I trust them way more than any stranger.

Agree -- but my kid (and other family members) who are likely candidates for that are too young now, and I am too uncertain of what the future will look like for them, to be confident that they'll be available to do that.  Doing the math, when I'm ~90 my kid will be ~50, so it's not a crazy idea, but -- who knows where he'll be? 

I do read a lot about 70-year olds today struggling to take care of their 90-year old parents, which seems both likely (plenty of 20-year old parents, 70 years ago), and problematic.  Of course many may have grandkids who could (in principle) step up, but again -- do they live nearby?  Are they healthy?  Are they overwhelmed by trying to take care of their own parents and kids?  Etc. 

Certainly having family you can turn to seems great, but it seems like other alternatives are needed when that's not an option for whatever reasons.

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

One thing this article accomplished was dissuading me from considering Nevada for my retirement. I had been considering the state because they have no state income tax and the COL is fairly low. But I can't risk being imprisoned for no cause by their courts and having all my money stolen, so that state is off the table. Now that I'm aware of this issue, I'm going to have to do some research on other states to ensure I can avoid this problem.

I think Florida is pretty bad as well, which would make sense since so many folks retire there. I can't remember where I read that though.

[MrMoneySaver]

Scary as hell. Any additional ideas on how to prevent this kind of thing from happening?

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

I found this a few clicks away from the link that letired posted above: https://www.ginsbergshulman.com/legal-services/estate-planning/

Looks like some good ideas for a place to start.

[Milkshake]

That's one of the most infuriating articles I've ever read.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Apparently this is an egregious problem in Michigan too.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2017/10/03/judge-requests-investigation-lansing-lawyer-conflicts-interest-judge-requests-investigation-lansing/712704001/

This topic of elder abuse is being actively debated in the bogleheads forum also:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=228930

Here are some ideas on how to protect yourself:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/boomers-against-elder-abuse/how-to-protect-yourself/580363958705859/

According to the Jane Clayson/WBUR interview, Kentucky is the only state that requires an adversarial approach to making a person a ward of the state and appointing a guardian.

[bobechs]

You don't even need to be old. You just need to have lots of money. Britney Spears is still under some form of guardianship: https://www.ginsbergshulman.com/blog/britney-spearss-conservatorship-guardianship-is-still-in-place/

You don't even need to have lots of money.  Note the article alludes to how some of the victims were identified by the professional guardians as ripe for the picking: they were denounced by bill collectors.

All you have to do is get forgetful about paying all your bills on time and, perhaps, jumping when a collector says frog, and you could find yourself a tragical character in a Dickens novel.  For real.

But I expect the guardian will be very diligent in paying that overdue bill, so there is a happy ending to the story.

[MrsPete]

This article made me think, so I checked my will (drawn up by a lawyer), and here's an annotated version of what my Power of Attorney says: 

I ____ ... sound mind and body ... appoint MY HUSBAND'S NAME /if not possible MY TWO CHILDREN'S NAMES to serve as agent(s) for me ... make health care and financial decisions for me ... Expires only when I revoke it ... document shall become effective if /when an attending physician determines I lack ability to make /communicate decisions about my health /finances ... guardian may make decisions about my health care, anatomical gifts, autopsy, disposition of remains, financial decisions ... I may at any time prior to onset of guardianship revoke this document /change my designee ... explains how to revoke. 

I left out a great deal, but I'm feeling secure in the idea that I've named my potential guardian(s). 

[joonifloofeefloo]

^ Yeah, I've had similar documents in place since my child was born. I update them every few years.

This thread is a helpful reminder, though, in letting someone trustworthy and organized doublecheck our YNAB account at least monthly. I retrieved over $3000 last week as a result of pursuing other people's administrative errors. That's probably my best round to date, but I've collected over $1000 at least once before, and around $300 in many months.

Letting a second pair of trusty eyes watch at least one's YNAB account could go a long way, so long as you subsequently let them rectify things they find... But at least they could go to the police if they found something extreme and you weren't letting them take normal action (thinking of a relative that won't let anyone fix any of their expensive blips).

[fantabulous]

This is a problem created by individual states. In this case, Nevada is not just a state. It's a criminal enterprise. You should look at what they are doing to force people not to adopt solar power, because the fossil fuel industries own the politicians. That state is shady as Hell.

Apparently not too shady, if the fossil fuel industry needs to fight to keep solar power out of the state.

[misshathaway]

Here are some ideas on how to protect yourself:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/boomers-against-elder-abuse/how-to-protect-yourself/580363958705859/

That is a very helpful link, especially the info on Village to Village which has groups nationwide in the US. Thanks for posting it.

[Evgenia]

Apparently this is an egregious problem in Michigan too.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2017/10/03/judge-requests-investigation-lansing-lawyer-conflicts-interest-judge-requests-investigation-lansing/712704001/

I do not doubt it. I could fill a book with the horrifying experiences we've encountered in caring for my grandparents over the years, many of those years in Michigan. My mother is my grandparents' only child and she lives back in Poland from whence they came, because Nazis.

In lieu of memoir I will list some highlights:

A hospital in Michigan sent my grandfather to a nursing home via ambulance, without any permission from ANYONE, dying grandfather or living spouse included. They sent him there in nothing more than a hospital gown, with electrodes and crap still stuck on his chest. The clothes and personal effects from his arrival at the hospital? Who the hell knows?

We physically removed him from the nursing home the same day, as in, I did not ask anybody anything and just hired a personal ambulance and wheeled him out myself, once we FOUND OUT WHERE HE WAS, which was NOT easy. The hospital literally would not tell my grandmother where her husband was. I thought the experience would be the end of both of them.

More recently, my grandmother lay in another Michigan hospital for four days, in agony, with no more than Tylenol 3 once per day and NO diagnosis. Despite this total lack of comprehension about a marked change in her condition, we were told it was "time for her to go to a nursing home."

I had to physically put myself between my grandmother and the social worker and guardian type person (as in, stand between them and her bed, arms outstretched), and I have full POA. I was at the hospital for 14-20 hours/day for seven consecutive days because I knew that, the minute I left, the guardian would swoop in and they'd probably do what they did to my grandfather.

Grandma now lives in California with me and is doing marvelously, walking all over and pain free.

We don't have children and won't, and after these experiences I have cold, pure terror of aging in this country. But, I also know that most of the people in hospitals and nursing homes did have kids, and you don't necessarily see much of them.

[MrMoneySaver]

Maybe transferring part of your assets, such as your house, to your kids' names, if you have them, would avoid some of this mess? I know that can bring problems of its own, especially if you don't trust your kids.

[elaine amj]

This is absolutely terrible. Incredibly heartbreaking.

I'm happier than ever that my mother (who is turning 70 next year) has decided to move in with us, more or less permanently. She is a resourceful, intelligent, extremely capable person but it makes me feel so much better knowing that I will be able to look after her and that she will be with us.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Apparently this is an egregious problem in Michigan too.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2017/10/03/judge-requests-investigation-lansing-lawyer-conflicts-interest-judge-requests-investigation-lansing/712704001/

I do not doubt it. I could fill a book with the horrifying experiences we've encountered in caring for my grandparents over the years, many of those years in Michigan. My mother is my grandparents' only child and she lives back in Poland from whence they came, because Nazis.

In lieu of memoir I will list some highlights:

A hospital in Michigan sent my grandfather to a nursing home via ambulance, without any permission from ANYONE, dying grandfather or living spouse included. They sent him there in nothing more than a hospital gown, with electrodes and crap still stuck on his chest. The clothes and personal effects from his arrival at the hospital? Who the hell knows?

We physically removed him from the nursing home the same day, as in, I did not ask anybody anything and just hired a personal ambulance and wheeled him out myself, once we FOUND OUT WHERE HE WAS, which was NOT easy. The hospital literally would not tell my grandmother where her husband was. I thought the experience would be the end of both of them.

More recently, my grandmother lay in another Michigan hospital for four days, in agony, with no more than Tylenol 3 once per day and NO diagnosis. Despite this total lack of comprehension about a marked change in her condition, we were told it was "time for her to go to a nursing home."

I had to physically put myself between my grandmother and the social worker and guardian type person (as in, stand between them and her bed, arms outstretched), and I have full POA. I was at the hospital for 14-20 hours/day for seven consecutive days because I knew that, the minute I left, the guardian would swoop in and they'd probably do what they did to my grandfather.

Grandma now lives in California with me and is doing marvelously, walking all over and pain free.

We don't have children and won't, and after these experiences I have cold, pure terror of aging in this country. But, I also know that most of the people in hospitals and nursing homes did have kids, and you don't necessarily see much of them.

That's terrifying Evgenia. Not sure what to do as I approach that age, I don't have kids.

[Evgenia]

That's terrifying Evgenia. Not sure what to do as I approach that age, I don't have kids.

I don't know what to do, either. I have wracked my brain on this a lot. I guess I feel like, "Hey, I figured out ways that got me to FIRE at age 38, I can figure out anything, or should be able to." And I can't, or haven't yet. Everything I come up with has one or more very weak links, i.e. anyone I might pay has no incentive to keep me alive vs. take money, and even a chain of oversight wouldn't prevent anyone from being in cahoots to get money, and who cares what happens to me.

My family and I have joked-but-not about suicide at 80, no matter what, being the safest route. Our present system is just not set up for ANY of this.

[DavidAnnArbor]

I hope caretaker robots improve exponentially in the next 30-40 years.

[BTDretire]

I'm pretty sure the press on this is going to cause some serious reform. Nothing like some national shaming to make things suddenly a priority. I hope that awful woman went to prison.

 I hope she gets life! That's what she was giving to her, uhm, clients.