Richer I get the Poorer I feel. Anyone else?

[Jrr85]

I will say this re:  "feeling poor."  I see and know lots of people who I know make far less than our household, and they spend wildly so they look like they're rich.  You know the type -- the opposite of the Millionaire Next Door type. Remember that old brokerage house (can't remember which) commercial where everyone was walking around with "their number" under their arm? I kinda wish that were the case in real life, not because I want to flaunt what I have or get into a dick measuring contest, but just because I'm really, really fucking curious to confirm that these people don't have shit put away for a rainy day. You know what I mean?  I suppose its just some inner desire (or more likely insecurity) to have my lifestyle choice(s) validated. Which of course is stupid, because I shouldn't need any outside validation for my choices. Being human is hard and weird sometimes, amirite?

I completely get this sentiment.  My wife and I often talk about how we have no clue if we are just stupid and don't know how to make money and/or are way underpaid compared to our peers, or if the people around us are saving nothing, or if they have family help or what.  We know that generally people in the U.S. don't save, but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something. 

[terran]

...but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something.

I doubt it.

[plainjane]

Its not that I feel poorer, its that I feel society's consumer spending message is more difficult to fight.  When I didn't have any money, it was easy to not go waste money on the nice convertible that you think would be great fun. 

I get this. Like I have a silly expensive tshirt I've been coveting since December. Maybe November. And the amount it will cost is 5x the price of a reasonable tshirt. But it is also the noise in my invested assets as those fluctuate day by day. Maybe if we end up getting bonuses this year.

[burninglights]

This sounds somewhat like the Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect), which basically goes that people with low ability overestimate their skill level and people with high ability underestimate their skill level.

So as you've become more skilled and successful at wealth creation, your knowledge of the subject and its perils have also increased.

[Dicey]

I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.

I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.

[RookieStache]

I feel this way all the time, I have always wondered where my peers savings rates are.

I do know that a work friend and his girlfriend make about 25% less than my wife and I do (gross). They also eat out for lunch every day and make expensive meals for dinner and refuse to eat the left overs (I eat their left overs 3 days a week for my lunch). They go out to dinner 3 nights a week and spend quite a bit on alcohol while they are out. They have the newest iphones, computers, lots of guns, go on road trips to see concerts, buy expensive gifts for special occasions.

They always tell me how cheap I am and "you only live once". But they also complain about how they don't have enough money to put down on a house and some months they are really tight on paying bills. They are both saving the 6% in their 401K's but no other savings (HSA/529's/IRA,etc.). I know this because I have explained to them what each of these different accounts are and how they work.

I guess more people are like that than we on this forum can imagine and that's what makes the low saving statistics seem so off to us.

[mxt0133]

I have taken the last year off from my corporate career to decompress and enjoy life and honestly I have been so blissed out by my daily freedom that I have gone days/weeks on end without spending any money (except for weekly groceries) without any effort. This has been the BEST.YEAR.OF.MY.LIFE!!!!!!!!! Just know that it is sooooo worth it, and foregoing those $20 here-and-there purchases will probably be a piece of cake once you are FI.

Ohh, man that paragraph really spoke to me.  I don't have issues with impulse buying, maybe on food, but nothing else.  However, I am ready to take a few months off from work to just spend time with my kids and travel.  We are close but not FI yet but I also have no intention of not ever working again for money.  I have so many things I want to do, I just fear that with I won't come out of the decompression stage and my wife will leave me for being lazy.

[Jrr85]

...but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something.

I doubt it.

I don't doubt some of them are being idiots, but I find it hard to believe most of them are.  And I don't doubt that very few of them are saving more than the 10-15% range.  But even at that savings level, we seem to be behind.

I suspect we have made relatively poor choices as to which employers we have taken jobs with, and I am also certain some of them have access to family money, and I'm sure some of them just make smarter choices about how they spend their money, and of course some of them are probably saving nothing or even going into debt (I've certainly heard a couple of people make comments about paying off credit card debt, which floored me).  I would just be curious to see how much of each are a factor. 

[OtherJen]

I don't doubt some of them are being idiots, but I find it hard to believe most of them are.  And I don't doubt that very few of them are saving more than the 10-15% range.  But even at that savings level, we seem to be behind.

I suspect we have made relatively poor choices as to which employers we have taken jobs with, and I am also certain some of them have access to family money, and I'm sure some of them just make smarter choices about how they spend their money, and of course some of them are probably saving nothing or even going into debt (I've certainly heard a couple of people make comments about paying off credit card debt, which floored me).  I would just be curious to see how much of each are a factor.

You'd be surprised at how many of them have access to family money. One of our friend-couples received the entire 20% downpayment for their custom-built McMansion from both sets of parents (gift, not loan) and regularly receive help in the form of food, cash, and childcare. They buy new cars on credit, eat out on a daily basis, pay a housekeeper to clean the McMansion, and rely on parents for emergency funds because they are so far in debt (they've described themselves as "poor", at which point a sibling quickly reminded them that they are not poor, but "broke"). Another friend-couple is currently on a fancy tropical vacation that they "desperately need", even though one of them told me that they couldn't pay their monthly bills recently without help from one set of parents. They eat out several times a week, take trips about once a month, and buy loads of toys.

Husband and I make less money than the first couple and probably about the same as the second couple. Because we strongly value financial security and tend toward minimalism, the difference in stuff doesn't normally bother us. It does sting when they occasionally treat us like we're poor, with little comments about our "situation", worries about our ability to afford things, etc.

[oldmannickels]

reminded me of this blog post

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/21/embracing-the-nagging-voice-of-success/

[pecunia]

I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow.  A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.

This same person had tools for his livelihood.  He noted that they were old and wore out.  I told him that by putting away just a little money with each job, the tools could be replaced.

I still remember the response.  It was this look that told me, "What are you talking about?"  It was like the concept was foreign.

The odd thing is that my frugality has netted me a better life than he had, but to this day I am sure he was happier.

[zygote]

Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.

My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.

That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.

[Jrr85]

Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.

My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.

That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.

I do get this.  We had to knock out about $55k of student loan debt, which obviously if we had been putting that money into the market instead of paying off debt (about of third of it at 6.8% interest, and about two thirds of it at 4.5%), we'd probably have another $100k in investments right now.  Or actually, we'd probably be part owners in a vacation condo that would have doubled in value, which with the benefit of hindsight, would have been a great decision rather than the stupid decision it would normally be, and people would probably be wondering how we have even a part ownership in a vacation home that nice. 

Also, some of our friends were able to push their limits in real estate investing because if they had gotten in over their head, their families would have been able to provide enough cash to get them through any temporary crunches, which of course over the last ten years has been a massive benefit that hasn't necessarily required any cash to change hands. 

[Dicey]

Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.

My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.

That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.

Huh. My parents did not pay for my college. When I had cancer right after [two years of self-funded junior] college, they did not help pay my medical bills. (I had insurance, but my 20% was still a lot.) No down payment money either. I learned to stand on my own two feet. I know I can take and prevail over any shit life hands me. My parents are dead now, and I am the executor of their estate. There's not a huge amount of money left, but enough to give each of us a little boost. It was very kind of them, but it's not going to change the course of our lives. If anything, for me, it's just more that I can give to charity. Moral of the story: you don't need family help to be successful. Sometimes, parental support just makes you look successful. It doesn't teach you how to DIY it when the shit hits the fan. And it always does.

[ditheca]

Sometimes it helps to be reminded that we are rich.  I suspect that applies to most the readers on this forum.

DW had an opportunity to go study abroad last year. She mentioned the trip some of her classmates were planning, saying "I always wished I could have done something like that."  She couldn't comprehend the idea that it was a possibility for her... I have to remind her frequently that our debt-free $80k income household is well within any sane definition of "rich."

She got an experience she'll remember for a lifetime, none of the children starved while she was gone, and we still maxed out all the retirement accounts. It is amazing to me that I can drop $5000 on literally anything, and the only downside is that it might delay FIRE for some fraction of a month.

At our income, the only thing we need to avoid is completely worthless expenses. Eat out? Second car? Big house? Not a chance. Charitable giving? Lasik? Physical therapy? Absolutely.

Buying a house that cost well under my net worth was a pretty liberating feeling.  I have a mortgage by choice, not because I have to.

Now that I'm well on my way to FIRE, I just need to max out our retirement accounts each year to be happy.  As long as we manage that, I don't even notice trivial expenses.  I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s.  I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.

[sol]

I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s.  I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.

We have noticed this same effect when discussing promotions at work.  When you're within about two years of your retirement date, promotions become less and less meaningful.  Why would I work my ass off for a 2% pay raise for the next two years, when I can make just as much money by retiring 12 days later at my current pay rate?

[Dicey]

I have a mortgage by choice, not because I have to.

 
Brilliant!

[PNW Lady]

I have taken the last year off from my corporate career to decompress and enjoy life and honestly I have been so blissed out by my daily freedom that I have gone days/weeks on end without spending any money (except for weekly groceries) without any effort. This has been the BEST.YEAR.OF.MY.LIFE!!!!!!!!! Just know that it is sooooo worth it, and foregoing those $20 here-and-there purchases will probably be a piece of cake once you are FI.

Ohh, man that paragraph really spoke to me.  I don't have issues with impulse buying, maybe on food, but nothing else.  However, I am ready to take a few months off from work to just spend time with my kids and travel.  We are close but not FI yet but I also have no intention of not ever working again for money.  I have so many things I want to do, I just fear that with I won't come out of the decompression stage and my wife will leave me for being lazy.

It was certainly a difficult decision to make but it ended up being a win for the entire family. I was able to get physically and emotionally healthy and spend some super fun quality time with DD. DH actually started enjoying work much more because I happily took on his portion of the family responsibilities and he was free to just get up and go. Happy hour after work/gonna miss dinner - no problem. Going in early to play some basket ball - have fun! Need to work late to hit a deadline - can DD and I bring you some dinner? We discovered that all of our happiness increases when only one parent is working (and yes, I know that doesn't apply to everyone).

I will say, I did become surprisingly "lazy". DD is 10 and in school most of the day so I had a ton of "me time". I prioritized getting healthy (exercise/physical activity, reading and self-reflection) and DD's academic/emotional development over cleaning and cooking, which DH didn't always fully appreciate (until I'd distract him with sex;-). The more I was home, the more I wanted to stay home FOREVER, which is why I've decided to go back to work. We are not yet FI either (but have serious FU money), but we're so close I think it's worth going for it. If either of us starts to burn out again we will take another break. If we both start to burn out we will probably both quit our jobs and travel as a family for a year before DD goes to high school.

The decision is a super personal one, so I won't necessarily encourage you to do it, but I will say for me it has been the best decision and brought our family much closer together. I honestly cannot imagine a better life than what I've had this past year, but I'm also a simple lady.

[zygote]

Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.

My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.

That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.

Huh. My parents did not pay for my college. When I had cancer right after [two years of self-funded junior] college, they did not help pay my medical bills. (I had insurance, but my 20% was still a lot.) No down payment money either. I learned to stand on my own two feet. I know I can take and prevail over any shit life hands me. My parents are dead now, and I am the executor of their estate. There's not a huge amount of money left, but enough to give each of us a little boost. It was very kind of them, but it's not going to change the course of our lives. If anything, for me, it's just more that I can give to charity. Moral of the story: you don't need family help to be successful. Sometimes, parental support just makes you look successful. It doesn't teach you how to DIY it when the shit hits the fan. And it always does.

I didn't mean that you can only be successful with family help. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. I just meant that it's a boost a lot of people take for granted - the people who had their parents' help, and also people looking at their lives from the outside who don't know the extent of the support. I agree that in some cases, it can make people appear successful when they haven't really learned how to manage their own shit yet.

[Fomerly known as something]

Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich."  I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts.  I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so. 

Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

[moof]

A few years ago I get a decent raise by changing jobs.  About the same time we got out of the crisis fog of having a new kid in the house.  I hit that point where I was getting money in the door faster than I was spending it, and was maxin out the 401k and was not sure what to do next.  Better vacations?  House projects?  More toys?

I finally felt kind of rich finally, and also nervous as hell.  Usually money sitting in my bank account attracts a crisis.  In the past it has been dogs needing surgery, cars needing major work, the roof starting to leak, etc.  It was about that time I discovered MMM and had my eyes opened a bit wider.

Looking at others' savings rates and staches made me feel poor again.  Instead of finally breaking through the stress of money/family, I realized I was miles behind others.  I also realized that my goal was no longer one of getting a good job and working till 70, but of working as few years as possible to be able to spend more time with kid/wife/nature.  With only half my number saved at 40, I now feel poor again in certain ways.  So much more is needed to be saved, yet it feels like I am not able to pour as much into my stache as fast as I want.

[dougules]

A few years ago I get a decent raise by changing jobs.  About the same time we got out of the crisis fog of having a new kid in the house.  I hit that point where I was getting money in the door faster than I was spending it, and was maxin out the 401k and was not sure what to do next.  Better vacations?  House projects?  More toys?

I finally felt kind of rich finally, and also nervous as hell.  Usually money sitting in my bank account attracts a crisis.  In the past it has been dogs needing surgery, cars needing major work, the roof starting to leak, etc.  It was about that time I discovered MMM and had my eyes opened a bit wider.

Looking at others' savings rates and staches made me feel poor again.  Instead of finally breaking through the stress of money/family, I realized I was miles behind others.  I also realized that my goal was no longer one of getting a good job and working till 70, but of working as few years as possible to be able to spend more time with kid/wife/nature.  With only half my number saved at 40, I now feel poor again in certain ways.  So much more is needed to be saved, yet it feels like I am not able to pour as much into my stache as fast as I want.

The folks here are completely not a representative sample of the population.  Take a look at the wider world, and you'll see that you are probably way ahead.  That's not a dig on other people as much as a way to highlight how rich you actually are.  At this point your challenge is more to clean up the space between your ears than clean up your finances.

[mbl]

Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich."  I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts.  I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so. 

Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.

 
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.

[dogboyslim]

Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich."  I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts.  I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so. 

Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.

 
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.

You are so punny!

[effigy98]

Suffering = Expectations - Reality

[scottish]

Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich."  I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts.  I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so. 

Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.

 
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.

You are so punny!

That was a very strange article.   The author - a self-proclaimed member of the 10% - says that the 10% are evil and they should all stop being successful.  Furthermore, they should stop helping their children be successful.   Meritocracies are unfair to people who don't have ability?

I have to wonder what would happen to the economy if the 10% just stopped working and everyone went to the beach for 6 months.     

[effigy98]

I have to wonder what would happen to the economy if the 10% just stopped working and everyone went to the beach for 6 months.   

There is a movie about this and books called Atlas Shrugged.

[scottish]

OMG, am I channeling Ayn Rand?

[PhilB]

I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow.  A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.

I love the Dorothy Parker version of this, entitled 'The flaw in paganism':

Drink and dance and laugh and lie,
Love, the reeling midnight through,
For tomorrow we shall die!
(But, alas, we never do.)

[mak1277]

I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow.  A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.

I love the Dorothy Parker version of this, entitled 'The flaw in paganism':

Drink and dance and laugh and lie,
Love, the reeling midnight through,
For tomorrow we shall die!
(But, alas, we never do.)

I'll take "Tripping Billies" by Dave Matthews Band, please.

[4tify]

What I've done is allow myself little luxuries along the way. It's sort of a dance between buying my freedom, while also allowing myself to enjoy the present a bit. For instance, once I went out and bought some really nice pillows--I think they were like $150. And in the moment I considered how the opportunity cost was "robbing me of my freedom" and putting me on the hedonic treadmill etc, but every night for a year when I went to bed I felt "rich." To me, the trade off was absolutely worth it and it helped a great deal in countering that feeling of "being poor." Now every year or so I allow myself some kind of indulgence and I've managed to collect a lot of really nice things along the way which help create the feeling of a life of luxury and "remind" me I've actually got a lot of money in the bank. Not very mustacian, maybe, but it works for me :)

[zolotiyeruki]

After reading this thread and giving it some thought, I've come to a bit of a realization, because I often feel the same way as OP.  Even though our needs are more than comfortably met, and we are saving for early retirement, I often feel like we're barely making ends meet.  For me, I've noticed that such feelings most frequently come when one of the following is true:

• Those around us do not appear to worry about money, because they spend a lot, whether they can afford it or not.  This is especially true when I see other people who have lower income but nicer things.
• Those around us do not appear to worry about money, because they earn more than us and live a similar lifestyle
• We go over budget during a month (even if on average we're under budget)
• When I feel like I scrimp on little things, and then a bigger, avoidable expense occurs, e.g. I bike to work to save $2, but then DW is out of energy and we spend $20 on dinner.

For me, I have to remind myself that, respectively:

• Appearances are deceiving.  They probably are far more stressed about "will we have enough to pay our bills," while my stress is "how early will I be able to retire."
• Others' success should in no way diminish mine
• The reason our budget is tight is because we're pretty good at budgeting, AND our retirement accounts are growing
• If I saved $2, I saved $2.  Sure, the $2 and the $20 come out of the same account (or don't), but they're really separate things

[Tyson]

I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.

I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.

Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips? 

[zolotiyeruki]

I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.

I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.

Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips?

Thrift stores for the former, yard sales for the latter.  Seriously--I'm in the process of selling the stuff my brother used to stage his house, everything from furniture and bedding down to vases, art, mirrors, and fake plants.  The stuff that won't sell, even at low prices, is the stuff you hang on walls and put on flat surfaces for staging.  Vases, candle pedestals, wall mirrors, artwork.  You have to practically give it away before anyone will take it.

[BlueHouse]

Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result.   Now....right now.  Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence.....

this is brilliantly said, and something I need to remind myself of.  Thanks for the insight!

[AlanStache]

We all need to work on "mindful spending", some more than others.  Also there is a difference between having fun and being happy; 20k on hookers and blow in Vegas might be fun but you wont be happy even after you save Doug from the roof.

[tinaglass]

Hi all,

I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.

The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)

I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.

I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.

Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?

Hey friend, I too feel in the same way. Even we don't spend much except on the daily household needs. But still, sometimes I fell saving is a good habit.

[Dicey]

I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.

I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.

Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips?

Thrift stores for the former, yard sales for the latter.  Seriously--I'm in the process of selling the stuff my brother used to stage his house, everything from furniture and bedding down to vases, art, mirrors, and fake plants.  The stuff that won't sell, even at low prices, is the stuff you hang on walls and put on flat surfaces for staging.  Vases, candle pedestals, wall mirrors, artwork.  You have to practically give it away before anyone will take it.

Yup, pretty much ^this^. I also like Craigslist and NextDoor. I had a great Home Consignment Store in my area. It's closed now (boo!), but when I was furnishing our current house, it was amazing. My eleven foot long custom-made-from-recycled-wood-at-a-very-high-end-shop dining table with ten chairs and a bench came from there. So did my fancy bedcovers and eleventy-zillion matching pillows. Best advice: be flexible and be patient. Use placeholders until you find what you really, really want. I kept my undies in a filing cabinet for years, until I finally found the perfect dresser.

[ruffles]

Suffering = Expectations - Reality

Brilliant. I am going to remember this one

[Steeze]

I have been feeling like we are living paycheck to paycheck in a way. I can't wait for Thursday as this is when the investment accounts are funded. Every other day seems like a grind. Just always looking forward to that one day, and for what? I know my life is out of balance, no time for recreation, just work, study, cook, clean, sleep, repeat. Maybe that expensive rock climbing gym membership would make me more fulfilled? I can't bring myself to spend the money, I can't stop thinking about FIRE.

I used to be poor. Sleeping in my car eating at a food bank and soup kitchen poor. I knew I was poor, but I didn't feel like this. I had a large group of friends and spent most of my waking hours in the pursuit of outdoor recreation, live music, and partying the night away. I always worked, but it wasn't my focus. I enjoyed every day of my life then, and often felt incredibly privileged to have such a wonderful life.

These days I feel like a sellout. I traded my soul for money in the bank. I traded my strength for a seat at a desk. I traded my friends for a career. All this and I don't even mind my job, it's better than many I have had in the past.

I look forward to FIRE everyday. I keep telling myself that this sacrifice is payment for not being more disciplined and balanced in my youth. I keep telling myself that I can keep this up for another 10-12 years. Keep grinding away and one day I will be free.

Trying to find a balance. I cut my hours at work from 65 to 45, and I am using that to study for my PE exam in the fall and help more around the house during the week. Already starting to feel better. Once the exam is over I will have that time to start going back to the gym and do chores so I can play outside at least 1 day on the weekends. Getting closer but not there yet.

All tough mind games - I will get better at it in time.

[OurTown]

Read the stoics, or alternatively read some modern, secular Buddhism.  You can live a good life right here in the present moment.   

[dude]

I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s.  I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.

We have noticed this same effect when discussing promotions at work.  When you're within about two years of your retirement date, promotions become less and less meaningful.  Why would I work my ass off for a 2% pay raise for the next two years, when I can make just as much money by retiring 12 days later at my current pay rate?

Amen! A few years back when I was topped out at my pay grade, I had the option of a $1500 cash award (before taxes) or a 40-hour time off award, i.e., a free week of vacation! Man, that's a no-brainer -- give me the vacation!

[EscapeVelocity2020]

There is a crossover point where, one year you feel like you are working for money and working to add as much of it to the 'stache as possible, then the next year you take your foot off the gas and the 'stache grows as fast if not faster than it did when you were working so hard.  The year after that, the process accelerates further and you realize that working is optional.

That's when I first felt really 'rich'.  Before that, I pretty much felt (and looked) poor.  Now I just look and feel neither rich nor poor, while all that financial stuff takes care of itself and I pay attention to the more important non-monetary things in life.

Good luck, it IS hard work at first, but well worth it.  Nothing can be more fulfilling than achieving freedom on your own terms (personally I think people that inherit FI or get there too easily miss out on feeling fulfilled, but now I'm rambling)...

[PizzaSteve]

Read the stoics, or alternatively read some modern, secular Buddhism.  You can live a good life right here in the present moment.   

+1 I find audiobooks by Alan Watts on Zen, very enlightening

[PNW Lady]

Now I just look and feel neither rich nor poor, while all that financial stuff takes care of itself and I pay attention to the more important non-monetary things in life.

I really like that.

[Schaefer Light]

There is a crossover point where, one year you feel like you are working for money and working to add as much of it to the 'stache as possible, then the next year you take your foot off the gas and the 'stache grows as fast if not faster than it did when you were working so hard.  The year after that, the process accelerates further and you realize that working is optional.

That's when I first felt really 'rich'.  Before that, I pretty much felt (and looked) poor.

I think there is a binary way of thinking that many of us engage in - we're either financially independent or we're not.  And if we're not, then we feel either poor or insecure or some combination of the two.  Even if we're $100k richer this year than we were last year, if we haven't reached our FI number yet we worry about all sorts of things.  Am I saving enough?  Am I earning enough?  What would happen if I lost my job or suffered a huge pay cut?  But I don't know if reaching FI gets rid of the uncertainty or if we just trade one set of worries for another.  Instead of worrying about a job loss, will I then worry about a medical emergency wiping out a huge chunk of my savings?  Or about the stock market collapsing?

So much of life is a crap shoot.  I feel like I just need to get better at living with uncertainty.  Maybe I should take more risks now instead of always playing it safe (i.e. continuing to work a well-paying job that doesn't suit me) even if it screws up my target FI date.  I've always said I wanted to move near the water and live in a place where it's warm enough to play golf year round.  Yet I'm nearly 40 years old and I haven't gotten any closer to my warm-weather destination because I'm afraid of taking any risks that would jeopardize my early retirement dreams. 

Once I did the math and realized when I could retire, it was almost as if I told myself that it would be the end of the world if I didn't become financially independent by that date.  Every decision I make is done with my FI goal in mind.  As a result, I feel like I'm just settling for a life that doesn't really make me happy in the hopes that eliminating the need to earn an income will make me happy.  And yet I could lose my job tomorrow as part of a corporate restructuring and that could seriously interfere with my plans.  But maybe that would be the kick in the ass I need to start really living.  It might be a freeing experience for me.  On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job.  Sounds crazy, right?

[Nicholas Carter]

It seems to me that what I really mean when I ask if someone is rich or poor is "With that much income, could I accomplish all of my current goals without having to count out the money?". A rich person has enough money to accomplish all of their ambitions, and a poor person has to worry over every dollar to meet their goals, and prioritize among those goals aggressively.
ER is, to begin with, a pretty grand ambition. It requires a lot more money that most of the other ambitions that you've actually acted to achieve (more than most of mine, at any rate). But the strategy we use here actually doubles down on that discrepancy between ambition and resources: we get to the FI number by worrying over every dollar of the money.
So basically: You got a lot of cash, to accomplish a goal that is even beyond that lot of cash, by thinking about money like you were a poor person in your day to day life. Because you are walking the walk, your emotions are talking the talk.

[plainjane]

On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job.  Sounds crazy, right?

This doesn't sound crazy at all. Because otherwise it is our fault if we pull the trigger on RE too quickly, or if the big risk (new job, new place, new person/no partner) doesn't pan out. Or maybe that is just me.

[Schaefer Light]

On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job.  Sounds crazy, right?

This doesn't sound crazy at all. Because otherwise it is our fault if we pull the trigger on RE too quickly, or if the big risk (new job, new place, new person/no partner) doesn't pan out. Or maybe that is just me.

I think that's a big part of it.  If I quit and it doesn't pan out, then I'll feel like an idiot.  But if I get laid off and fall on hard times, then I'm likely to judge myself less harshly.  With just 5-7 years until I reach my FI number, I don't know if it's worth the risk to make a move.  But maybe it's an even bigger risk to stay in a boring job for that long.  After all, I could die between now and then.

[Schaefer Light]

My future is completely uncertain, and I now consider that a great thing. I used to crave stability and predictability and now nothing would depress me more than knowing exactly what my life will look like in 5 years because that means that no amazing and new opportunities will have popped up.

I'm trying to get to a place where I consider the uncertainty to be a good thing, too.

Aiming for FIRE is all nice and good, but it’s incredibly unhealthy to let it hold you back from living your full life just because you have some imaginary timeline for some arbitrary savings goal. Nothing in life is guaranteed, except that it *will* pass you by if you let it.

I totally agree.  My biggest fear is that it will pass me by and I'll regret the way I've lived.

I like this quote from Alan Watts' book The Wisdom of Insecurity.

"If happiness always depends on something expected in the future, we are chasing a will-o’-the-wisp that ever eludes our grasp, until the future, and ourselves, vanish into the abyss of death."