Author Topic: Retire or Rich  (Read 10849 times)

hoping2retire35

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Retire or Rich
« on: January 03, 2018, 12:23:40 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?

SC93

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 12:41:20 PM »
I haven't worked for a company since the mid 90's but I tried being retired and it wasn't for me. I had to start another business. The grass was not greener on the retirement side for me. Now I love my new business more than I loved the old one.

Aegishjalmur

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 12:46:23 PM »
Nope, can't say I have the desire to work an additional 5-10 years, even as part time. My wants and needs are pretty simple and looking at our current expenses and budget, with what we have planned, what we have now will suffice. I could work longer and get more money, but for what? I really don't need it and having more wouldn't make me any happier, if anything it would bother me that I had wasted the additional time working when I could be off doing something I enjoy.

BiggerFishToFI

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 01:43:09 PM »
In the same position, hope to be FI in 6-7 years, but working an additional 6-10 would make me much richer. Then working another 5-10 could put me at 7 figures...

I'm leaning toward one of the many other options after FI however such as going to part-time to cover base expenses, taking a couple years off and then maybe going back to work for a few, starting some businesses, etc. etc.

fattest_foot

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 01:49:57 PM »
I've tried to figure out how people can spend $100k a year. The usual suspects of new cars every couple years, way too big houses, and constantly upgrading gadgets is about the only thing I can come up with. And even then, I don't get that high of spending.

Heck, just the other day my wife and I were talking about how we can't figure out anything we'd want to buy with $100 cash that relatives give us for Christmas.

So no, I don't see any reason to continue working. OMY or part time work to make sure sequence of returns doesn't bite us? Sure. Another decade so that our SWR ends up being enough to cover six figures? Absolutely not. I just don't know what I'd do with that kind of money.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 01:59:26 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?

That is exactly what we are doing. We like what we do and make a good income doing it.  We are hoping that working part time will give us the best of both worlds.  Working 8 days a month should treat us pretty well.  8 days a month will cover all of our expenses allowing our wealth to grow.  The plan is to go part time at the end of this year if markets cooperate (meaning 0% or better growth.)  Otherwise part time after the next correction recovers. 

I know that it is not 100% Mustachian, but there are just some luxuries I am choosing not to give up.  BTW, if I hated by job I have no problem forgoing those luxuries immediately.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 02:40:31 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?

That is exactly what we are doing. We like what we do and make a good income doing it.  We are hoping that working part time will give us the best of both worlds.  Working 8 days a month should treat us pretty well.  8 days a month will cover all of our expenses allowing our wealth to grow.  The plan is to go part time at the end of this year if markets cooperate (meaning 0% or better growth.)  Otherwise part time after the next correction recovers. 

I know that it is not 100% Mustachian, but there are just some luxuries I am choosing not to give up.  BTW, if I hated by job I have no problem forgoing those luxuries immediately.

Yeah, same here (except for the timeline -- we're probably a few years behind your plans).

And I think whether the job is enjoyable makes a huge difference.  In fact, part of my desire to go part time eventually is that I fear I will miss my job.  I do fun, challenging stuff with minimal BS and get paid well for it.  The main reason I want to retire (or go part time) is that my time is limited, and when I'm working I can't do the other things I want to do.

moof

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2018, 02:53:31 PM »
The math is tempting, but no, I fully intend to bail once I have secured FI.

I'm tired of looking out the window on a beautiful day from inside my fabric box.  I'm tired of having to rush through making dinner in the evening because don't get home till 6.  I'm tired of having to structure trips and vacations around weekends and holidays when every other SOB is clogging up things for the same reasons.  I'm tired of going to jam packed grocery stores during the evening when every other SOB is there shopping too, I've rather shop in the morning dead times thank you very much.

So I am instead I fill my days wondering about new ways to curtail wasteful spending to achieve a lower cost of living and bring the date of freedom closer.

terran

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2018, 02:54:57 PM »
I see no reason to pursue "being rich" just for the sake of it, that just seems silly. But if you legitimately think you'll find value in the increased spending (whether that be on stuff, experiences, charity, leaving it to your heirs, whatever) or the increased capacity to spend (safety margin so you don't need to worry) commensurate with the extra time you'll need to put in, then go for it. You're FI (and should FIRE) as soon the amount of money you have will support your optimal level of spending at a safe withdrawal rate that makes you feel comfortable. The safe withdrawal rate is relatively constant (with some variation for risk tolerance), so the one lever we can pull is the amount we want to spend, and beyond a basic level of subsistence (which is quite low) we're all just balancing spending desires vs the desire not to work.

MoneyStacher

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2018, 03:34:06 PM »
I get your thinking because I have it. Right now, single and 1.2M. I only need 40k/year. But, I've got this work from home thing that is really easy and max 40 hours. So, I've decided that my OMY money goes to something fun/rewarding. Like OMY this year means a new kitchen. Plus I did an OMY already to make a buffer in case there is a market decline.

Bateaux

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2018, 03:37:09 PM »
At first it was just get enough to retire.   Now,  money is so easy to make.  Portfolio makes more than I do.  RICH!

ketchup

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2018, 03:42:00 PM »
Once I hit "enough," more money will just be extra numbers with no real purpose.  If they keep going up post-FIRE for whatever reason, that's fine, but I would expend extra resources to make that happen.

Aelias

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2018, 03:47:20 PM »
This is something my husband and I have talked about. We're 35. Depending on the market, we'll hit our FIRE number in 7-13 years.  If we worked until 65, we'd be somewhere between really rich and crazy, absurdly rich by the time we retire. Here's how I think about it.

Reasons to keep working:

Work is fun!: We both have jobs that are both pretty enjoyable and pretty flexible.  They pay really well.  Hard to walk away from that.

We're constrained by our kids' schedules anyway: One of the things we want to do is travel.  But extensive travel doesn't work well with a traditional school schedule. And I don't think we're cut out for homeschooling.  So, if we're mostly stuck in one locale for 9 mos a year, why not work?

Sense of accomplishment: I've known a couple people who were really good at their jobs.  When they retired at 60-something, you could see their pride in what they'd built.  They'd done useful projects, mentored younger people, and become valued colleagues and friends.  Work is fickle, but when someone finishes on top of a really good career, it means a lot to them.

Be philanthropists: We already give a healthy portion of our income to causes we care about, and we want to do more.  Lots more.  Even if we only make it to modestly rich territory, we'll be in a position to make a huge impact.

Reasons to FIRE:

There's so much other stuff to do!: We are both intensely curious, project people by nature. We have a lot of interests and hobbies that have gone unexplored.  When you're working, those take a back seat.

Travel: While we'd still have the kids schedules to contend with, there would be summers!  Long, glorious summers to see the world with our kids before they move out on their own.  It's hard to imagine a better gift to give them.

Focus on our health: We're reasonably healthy, but we could definitely stand to eat, sleep, and exercise better. 

Be there for our parents and our family: All of our parents are still alive, but they aren't getting any younger (of course, none of us are). And they don't live nearby.  Everyone's doing good now, but in the not too distant future, they will need care. I want to be able to go to them at the drop of a hat and stay as long as they need me without worrying about work.

Find out what I'd do if I had nothing do: External motivations have dominated my whole life.  I want to find my intrinsic motivation. What do I want just for myself?  It's an important question.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 03:48:46 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?

That is exactly what we are doing. We like what we do and make a good income doing it.  We are hoping that working part time will give us the best of both worlds.  Working 8 days a month should treat us pretty well.  8 days a month will cover all of our expenses allowing our wealth to grow.  The plan is to go part time at the end of this year if markets cooperate (meaning 0% or better growth.)  Otherwise part time after the next correction recovers. 

I know that it is not 100% Mustachian, but there are just some luxuries I am choosing not to give up.  BTW, if I hated by job I have no problem forgoing those luxuries immediately.

Yeah, same here (except for the timeline -- we're probably a few years behind your plans).

And I think whether the job is enjoyable makes a huge difference.  In fact, part of my desire to go part time eventually is that I fear I will miss my job.  I do fun, challenging stuff with minimal BS and get paid well for it.  The main reason I want to retire (or go part time) is that my time is limited, and when I'm working I can't do the other things I want to do.

The job is even more enjoyable the less I do it if it makes any sense.  If I have to work 4 days in a row, day 5 is very difficult and not that fun.  But after a few days off working 2 days in a row is actually fun. 

Another reason why I like the idea of working part time is because it forces me into a schedule.  At times I become very lazy staying up very late and then sleeping till noon.  By adding a sporadic day of work here and there I am back on a reasonable schedule and my days off are more enjoyable and more productive.

Also, one of the reasons why days off or so nice is because I work.  Without the work, days off become routine and not that special.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2018, 04:19:27 PM »
I've tried to figure out how people can spend $100k a year. The usual suspects of new cars every couple years, way too big houses, and constantly upgrading gadgets is about the only thing I can come up with. And even then, I don't get that high of spending.

Heck, just the other day my wife and I were talking about how we can't figure out anything we'd want to buy with $100 cash that relatives give us for Christmas.

So no, I don't see any reason to continue working. OMY or part time work to make sure sequence of returns doesn't bite us? Sure. Another decade so that our SWR ends up being enough to cover six figures? Absolutely not. I just don't know what I'd do with that kind of money.

Over the last 4 years I have been slowly decreasing how much I work.  With the added free time in our lives I find new ways to have fun.  At times these new things cost more money then I initially expected to spend in retirement.  Are these fun things worth working extra? Yes if the job is worth working. 

Here's an example:  We will be doing a 5 week road trip across a part of the US.  That means 5 weeks in Hotels/Air B&Bs.  If we did not have the available free time it would maybe be a one week vacation via plane.  At an average $150/night after taxes hotels alone will cost us $5250.   Again if this was a simple 1 week vacation the cost would be significantly less. 

Another example: I recently joined an IPDA league which has a routine consumption cost of equipment plus driving to and from the event/practice.  This hobby cost about $2k-$3k a year.

Another example:  This year I plan to go hunting which may likely have an initial outlay but maybe provide a reasonable amount of food.

I will admit that our largest expense is our home.  It was a mistake purchase. Now that we are accustomed to it, and have settled into a good life here we are choosing to stay.  I did my budget for 2017 and this home as compared to a more reasonable more modest size house costs us close to an extra $10k/yr in utilities, property tax, maintenance, and running a pool. Property tax in this area is very high considering there is no state income tax. When we bought this house it was only 1.2 x our salary.  Since then the value skyrocketed and so has the property tax.  If we were to completely retire today we would move to a lower cost area.  But since the plan is part time in 2019 we can stay here indefinitely.

MrsPete

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 04:55:47 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?
I AM putting up with work a while longer.  I am not comfortable with having "just enough"; rather, I want a buffer to account for inflation and comfort.  I expect to have fifty years in retirement, which isn't too shabby.

Given your details, I suggest you split the difference.  Make it five years.  Set a date now, and work towards it. 

Bumbles8

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 07:03:45 PM »
I think way too much about FIRE.  But honestly, this has never crossed my mind.

I am still unsure on my actual FIRE number, but my current top range would be one million.  I have never considered "man, if I work 10 more years I could be super rich".

Then I could just be a boglehead. 

I'll fire with a number that I'm extremely happy with because I will be happy with my spending (ie - buy what actually brings happiness)

Malkynn

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2018, 07:59:33 PM »
Like Pete, Iíll likely be more profitable in retirement than during my day-job years.
My industry isnít scalable, my passion projects probably are.

Iíll stick with my extremely meaningful and fulfilling day job, at least part time, until I either stop enjoying it or my other projects start taking over.

Once I have saved a solid nest egg, not FIRE just a big chunk that I can leave alone, I will likely take several months to a year off. Get that post-FIRE chill out phase out of my system, and then get back to being productive. I may go back to my day job, I may not. It depends on what I enjoy at the time.

I canít fathom living the last several decades of my life doing nothing of substance. I may not be able to predict their level of profitability, but I have some pretty ambitious projects, so Iím sure some of them will be surprisingly lucrative.

So...sort of yes, sort of no?
I mean, yes, I anticipate generating income well past my minimum FIRE target, but no, I donít plan to slog away at a day job a moment more than I absolutely need to.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 03:54:54 AM »
Nope! not for me. Life is to short so If I can take the time to chill earlier than whatever the norm is as it seems to keep going up I will take it. Now if there was something that wouldn't ruin it say couple hours a day for 100$ and hour+.. I would reconsider but I think living my life is being rich. There is always those that will have more than me so dont need to get caught up on the roller coaster. Kinda reminds me as trying to keep up with the jones's. All those extravagant things that you use a few times here and there and end up sitting in your driveway you can rent.

Trifele

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 04:29:56 AM »
No, I am not tempted to keep working.  I am 50, and barring some unforeseen disaster, I will be FIREing next year from my cushy and very-well-paying day job, and I cannot wait.  There are way too many other things I'd rather be doing.  I have a couple of small side gigs that I will keep doing for fun and some cash, and other things may come my way.  But as soon as I hit the magic number -- buh-bye. 

PhilB

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 07:56:54 AM »
This thread strikes so many chords with me!  My plan included 3 'extra' years that would move us from comfortably covering current spending if I went at 50 to having one third more if I went at 53.  I am now exactly half way through those 3 years and being driven slowly crazy by the internal tussle.  When things go well at work the original plan sounds great and maybe even part time beyond.  When they go badly I think what the hell am I doing still working for money I probably won't even spend?
In hindsight I wish I had never planned for the extra as once you get it in your mind as something achievable, it's harder to walk away from.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 08:20:56 AM »
First of all, kudos to @Aelias for an awesome post. Nice pros and cons.

I am only 44 but I think about my mortality all the time. Per the Social Security Administration, I am currently expected to have 37.9 years left on the planet, dying at age 82. If I live that long, and I further assume that the last 12 years are somewhat sucky because of health issues, that means I have a grand total of 26 "good years" left. And I'm nowhere near FIRE.

So I am focusing on "how much is a 'good year' worth to me?"  And I wonder how much it's worth to others. I see my parents and my in-laws all currently working FT in their mid 60s. They are run-down, and frankly old. I'm not sure they have many, if any, "good years" left.

So how much money would you trade a "good year" for? If you could trade away half of your "good year" allotment in exchange for being rich, is that a good trade? People will disagree.

honeybbq

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 09:44:18 AM »
Aelias- great post. Many of my sentiments there.  Constrained to a 'normal' school year is a big one for us. I don't want to home school and take my child out of the 'normal' growing up environment unless I have some really solid alternative plans (which I don't). Plus friends, sports, etc... I think all those things are important for kids.

I like my job for the most part and I help people. Lots of feel goods there.

I'll probably have more money than I can ever spend, and I'll enjoy donating to causes I believe in when I'm older.

I'm at a cross roads where I could FIRE early, and do whatever I want. But I don't think I'm ready to pull the trigger yet.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2018, 09:47:19 AM »
The 4% rule already leaves people with extra money, usually more than they started with. If an extra year pushed me to 3.5 or 3, I would consider it, because it's likely I could take up more expensive hobbies. Think track days, sailing, living in more expensive/desirable places.

4% maintains current lifestyle
3% LIKELY gives you an ever expanding lifestyle. (or more giving)

I will likely pull the plug at 4%, but I won't rule out extra contract work here-and-there. It's likely that my SWR will continue to fall after I FIRE.

Ocinfo

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Retire or Rich
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2018, 09:56:37 AM »
I was just looking at this a few days ago. I’ll be FI in 3-5 years (around age 36). I have the option of working part-time so will likely do that from age 36 to 40. It gets really interesting if I keep working part-time (likely WFH, possibly as an expat). I wouldn’t touch my investments, would actually still be adding, and enjoying working 20-30 hours per week but I would end up with $6-10 million (at age 50) that would continue to grow as my withdrawal rate will be 2% or less (some problem to have, right?). I don’t want to downshift any earlier, I generally enjoy my work, and I spend more than I like to already.


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Brother Esau

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2018, 10:04:23 AM »
I recently changed jobs to a cushy gig. Part of the thought process was that it would make it easier for me to hang on a few years after FI and then have a "rich" retirement. The difference would be winters in Maui and several months in Europe each year vs not.

Trifele

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2018, 11:03:20 AM »

I am only 44 but I think about my mortality all the time. Per the Social Security Administration, I am currently expected to have 37.9 years left on the planet, dying at age 82. If I live that long, and I further assume that the last 12 years are somewhat sucky because of health issues, that means I have a grand total of 26 "good years" left. And I'm nowhere near FIRE.

So I am focusing on "how much is a 'good year' worth to me?"  And I wonder how much it's worth to others. I see my parents and my in-laws all currently working FT in their mid 60s. They are run-down, and frankly old. I'm not sure they have many, if any, "good years" left.

So how much money would you trade a "good year" for? If you could trade away half of your "good year" allotment in exchange for being rich, is that a good trade? People will disagree.

The mortality factor is a big one for me in pulling the plug next year.  I've had cancer, and once you've been through that -- time becomes so much more precious.  Especially good time, as Nick_Miller wisely points out. 


zinnie

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 11:14:35 AM »
Great summary of pros and cons, Aelias!

My biggest hangup on retiring early is the philanthropy angle that Aelias mentioned. If I could find something I really loved that paid well, I'd have millions more dollars to help make the world a better place. That is motivating for me. Not sure it's motivating enough to work an extra 30 years, but it is definitely something that I mull over from time to time. It's one reason I'm not sure I'm fully committed to the retiring-and-definitely-never-working-again philosophy. I am now thinking more about a retiring-for-now-until-something-better-comes-along approach. It's why I left my job before fully hitting my FIRE number.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2018, 11:27:45 AM »
I never really thought about in the I can be really really stupidly rich sense but I have thought about it from the standpoint of.....wow if I work for couple more years I could pay for college for my three kids at ANY college regardless of the cost, I could take care of their down payments when/if they want to buy a house, I could fund a travel year for them when they are out of college, and so on....for me I think how the extra riches can be used for them but without the full spoiling aspect of it, more of the I am giving them some additional advantages.

But it won't come at the cost of me hating my existence.....so its a struggle right now how it will play out. 

Reasons to keep working:
We're constrained by our kids' schedules anyway: One of the things we want to do is travel.  But extensive travel doesn't work well with a traditional school schedule. And I don't think we're cut out for homeschooling.  So, if we're mostly stuck in one locale for 9 mos a year, why not work?

This is an issue for me as well.
First of all, kudos to @Aelias for an awesome post. Nice pros and cons.

I am only 44 but I think about my mortality all the time. Per the Social Security Administration, I am currently expected to have 37.9 years left on the planet, dying at age 82. If I live that long, and I further assume that the last 12 years are somewhat sucky because of health issues, that means I have a grand total of 26 "good years" left. And I'm nowhere near FIRE.

Yes and now I am depressed.

L8_apex

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2018, 11:41:34 AM »
Retired at 47 two years ago, not really 'rich' per-se.  But I've got what I think is enough buffer, which added 2 - 3 years of work there at the end. 

I couldn't find a compelling reason to work for another couple of years even if that added another 1 or 2k to my monthly income going forward.  As it is, I've got enough extra to pay all of the basics and luxuries like business class flights/vacations 2 or 3 times a year.

If somebody wants to keep working to hit 'rich' - good for them, they've probably thought through their options.  The people that leave me scratching my head are those that have the net worth to retire, but won't acknowledge that and just keep on with the daily/weekly grind.  I'm referring to my ex-coworkers in silicon valley, many who had enough equity in their home to fund retirement.  (Assuming they sold and used the proceeds to move somewhere with a low COL)...  The majority of those folks didn't want to bother figuring out if they could retire that day...




mathlete

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2018, 11:53:23 AM »
It depends, I guess. Depends upon if I have kids and how much of a head start I want to give them.

Outside of that though, there are other considerations to be made. I love travel, and it isn't something I'm willing to wait on. Thankfully, frugality and rewards cards have helped me see so much more of the world than I ever though possible before even my 30th birthday. But I would like to travel for a longer period of time than just a week here of there. I'd like to make a month or so out of driving around the United States.

That could be a very different experience if I wait to much longer, what with urbanization, and the decimation of small and mid-sized downs that I see coming.

Jrr85

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2018, 12:05:40 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?

We will probably put up with work for an extra 4-6 years if we continue on our current pace.   The main issue for us will be setting up our kids. 

We kind of started kids in the middle range.  Not early enough to get them out of the house early, but not late enough for us to get set before they get to high school. 

So we should be FI right around the time the first hits college age.  At that point, we could pull the plug on work and sort of let them figure out paying for college on their own, and depending on market performance, we could live a pretty nice upper middle class lifestyle and still leave them a nice little retirement when they are say early to mid fifties. 

Or we can keep working for ~6 years and cash flow college and by the time the last one gets done, our investments will have (hopefully) grown significantly while we get them out of college without debt.  At that point, not only will they be starting from a much better financial position, we should have moved from upper middle class lifestyle to the ability to basically live months at a time anywhere we please, and also spring for plane tickets for the kids to come see us regularly.  It is a huge trade-off though, as we will be "old" at the time we truly retire. 

Who knows though.  Maybe when we're not spending $25k per year on daycare, we'll find out that we can retire much earlier. 


Retire-Canada

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2018, 12:10:14 PM »
So we have all done the math and thought if we reach our FIRE date we could potentially keep working 5-10 more years and eventually be pretty wealthy in a couple decades; at least I know I have.

Would anyone else put up with work for a while longer? What makes the difference?



I don't really see a need to choose. At 4%WR I would be pretty wealthy and I can retire. As it stands in most cases at 4%WR you end up with a big pile of money...more than you started with. So if I kept working past 4%WR say down to 2%WR all I would do is exchange precious years at the prime of my life for something I no longer need...more and more money.

See Maizman's awesome charts above. What's a bigger problem for a retiree...running out of money or dying?

If you say you like your job so working longer isn't a problem my response would be that unless you have tried not working for several years you really have no idea what you are giving up. You might find out too late that retiring early was the better decision. Hopefully you don't die at your desk.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2018, 12:11:39 PM »
For me it's if I overcome my inner bag lady.  I'm in a place where I could retire but I don't have enough of a cushion yet for the IBL.  By the time I'm likely to overcome my IBL there is a good chance I'll be on the path to basically being rich.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:14:15 PM by neverrun »

HawkeyeNFO

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2018, 12:42:57 PM »
...The main issue for us will be setting up our kids.

...we could pull the plug on work and sort of let them figure out paying for college on their own, and depending on market performance, we could live a pretty nice upper middle class lifestyle and still leave them a nice little retirement when they are say early to mid fifties.

Kids are the driver for sure.  If I didn't have kids, I certainly could have retired earlier and not relied on my military pension.  My goal is to get the kids out of college with zero debt hanging over their heads. 

I have used Coverdell accounts (better than 529s for my specific situation) since they were each born, contributed the max each year, and plan to use my GI bill for their education (I'm done going to college).  The oldest will likely start in '21, and right now there is enough to cover 3.3 years of her school.

damnedbee

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2018, 01:01:26 PM »
If I worked a few years past FIRE, then I could retire in a more desirable HCOL area. For example, would it be worth working 5-10 extra years to retire on Kaua'i (a longtime dream)? Sure, I could FIRE and be mostly happy elsewhere, but I might always wonder and regret compromising. This is the FIRE question that I think about the most. I'm still 10 years away and figure I'll decide when I'm a bit closer.

ol1970

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2018, 01:12:04 PM »
I sort of way overshot my FIRE number and I'm probably what most people would define as wealthy.  I spent the last 3 years working exactly 0 hours and loved every minute of it.  I'm also the creative/inventor/entrepreneurial type which has me starting another endeavor for fun, some people would call it a "job", but it is not for the money, its for the excitement of creating something from nothing and the challenge.  Having the money gives you options...if you aren't doing something you love then get the hell out and start living life, but that does not have to mean you won't earn another dollar or two along the way. 

Aelias

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2018, 01:12:17 PM »
I wonder if a healthy respect for (or preoccupation with?) one's own mortality is a unifying characteristic of MMM types.  Though I didn't have any significant loss early in my life, I've always felt I was more acutely aware of my mortality than others. Like, I'm very aware that I could be hit by a bus at any time.  Or have a heart attack. Or get cancer.

Rather than being depressed, I've found this feeling makes me braver.  I'm already risking death everyday by just being a person walking around, so doing "scary" things isn't really all that scary.  If it goes wrong, I'll be just as dead as if I were hit by that bus.

To me, MMM is really about using your resources in a way that allows you to maximize meaning in your life.  Once you've hit FI, material needs are satisfied, so you can keep climbing Maslow's hierarchy.  And you get to decide what adds meaning to your life--your paying job, your family, your passion projects, a combination thereof.  Not to get schmaltzy about it, but it's kind of profound.  We're talking about the meaning of life, guys--crazy!

I do feel sorry for people who are stuck in cyclical poverty and have a very steep climb to get out.  I'm also feel somewhat sorry for and am very confused by people who have plenty of resources but think they could never consider retiring.  Or people who mindlessly spend their resources on things that don't really give them meaning and, in fact, actively prevent them from ever finding meaning.  The unexamined life, I guess.

PS--Thanks for the kudos on my last post.  :)



zinnie

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
I wonder if a healthy respect for (or preoccupation with?) one's own mortality is a unifying characteristic of MMM types.  Though I didn't have any significant loss early in my life, I've always felt I was more acutely aware of my mortality than others. Like, I'm very aware that I could be hit by a bus at any time.  Or have a heart attack. Or get cancer.

Rather than being depressed, I've found this feeling makes me braver.  I'm already risking death everyday by just being a person walking around, so doing "scary" things isn't really all that scary.  If it goes wrong, I'll be just as dead as if I were hit by that bus.

To me, MMM is really about using your resources in a way that allows you to maximize meaning in your life.  Once you've hit FI, material needs are satisfied, so you can keep climbing Maslow's hierarchy.  And you get to decide what adds meaning to your life--your paying job, your family, your passion projects, a combination thereof.  Not to get schmaltzy about it, but it's kind of profound.  We're talking about the meaning of life, guys--crazy!

I do feel sorry for people who are stuck in cyclical poverty and have a very steep climb to get out.  I'm also feel somewhat sorry for and am very confused by people who have plenty of resources but think they could never consider retiring.  Or people who mindlessly spend their resources on things that don't really give them meaning and, in fact, actively prevent them from ever finding meaning.  The unexamined life, I guess.

PS--Thanks for the kudos on my last post.  :)

This is an interesting take and pretty accurately describes me as well!

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2018, 03:11:43 PM »
Pretty much what Aelias said, minus the "work is fun" part, which of course, definitely pushes me towards retiring early.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2018, 03:28:00 PM »
For me FIRE would include all of the spending that I realistically want/need to do in retirement. As opposed to FI, where I could support myself, but perhaps not indulge in some of the retirement luxuries (such as travel) that I might otherwise.

So when/if I hit FIRE, the only thing working five-to-ten-more-years (which by the way is .635 to 12.7 percent of the U.S. life expectancy) will get me is a bigger for money that I likely will not spend.

Roboturner

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2018, 03:51:44 PM »
I agree with RetireCanada, in most scenarios you are already going to die wealthy. We play a similar game of extending past FI solely for specific items/goals. i.e. my SO would really like a specific house in a specific neighborhood that would cost more than something I'd be ok with. Thus perhaps we should work x more years to afford that house. Rather than for a larger pile of money that will likely go unused.

Counting_Down

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »
I think there's a time value of money take here too, as has been somewhat alluded to... but for a more direct approach:

One more year for one million dollars would buy anyone a near irrefutable sense of security and many would trade that for the 1MM.
One more year for $10 wouldn't change the outcome for someone who is already FI.

There's a crossover point, that depends on the amount of money, time, and to account for the mortality aspect...your age.
One more year for one million dollars - the answer changes if you're 30 vs 75.

For us, we're <30 and our accumulation rate is ~300k/yr.  To me, I'm liking the odds of the extra security in trade for 3 years.  My SO argues that we already have enough.  Some would rationalize my response as inner bag person as above, but I think its a rational assessment of TVM.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 04:11:29 PM by Counting_Down »

Chuck Ditallin

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2018, 04:00:41 AM »
I wonder if a healthy respect for (or preoccupation with?) one's own mortality is a unifying characteristic of MMM types.  Though I didn't have any significant loss early in my life, I've always felt I was more acutely aware of my mortality than others. Like, I'm very aware that I could be hit by a bus at any time.  Or have a heart attack. Or get cancer.

Rather than being depressed, I've found this feeling makes me braver.  I'm already risking death everyday by just being a person walking around, so doing "scary" things isn't really all that scary.  If it goes wrong, I'll be just as dead as if I were hit by that bus.


My guiding motto is 'Accept it. Get over it. Move on.' I don't mean it in a flippant way and I accept that each step is sometimes difficult and/or protracted. A lot of people find the concept of death to be frightening or morbid, but having got to the 'move on' stage regarding my eventual demise, I too find the concept freeing... and I can't wait to get to RE, to free up my time for having fun.

(Full disclosure: I'm FI with a large illiquid asset which is hopefully selling in the next month or two. At that point, I'll be ludicrously over my expenses. I couldn't have sold earlier as the value of the asset has risen dramatically while my unavoidable expenses drop off a cliff this year and my pension moves ever closer. Even 2 years ago, the numbers didn't work, but now, we'll retire relatively early AND relatively rich.)

Trifele

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2018, 04:30:59 AM »
I wonder if a healthy respect for (or preoccupation with?) one's own mortality is a unifying characteristic of MMM types.  Though I didn't have any significant loss early in my life, I've always felt I was more acutely aware of my mortality than others. Like, I'm very aware that I could be hit by a bus at any time.  Or have a heart attack. Or get cancer.

Rather than being depressed, I've found this feeling makes me braver.  I'm already risking death everyday by just being a person walking around, so doing "scary" things isn't really all that scary.  If it goes wrong, I'll be just as dead as if I were hit by that bus.


My guiding motto is 'Accept it. Get over it. Move on.' I don't mean it in a flippant way and I accept that each step is sometimes difficult and/or protracted. A lot of people find the concept of death to be frightening or morbid, but having got to the 'move on' stage regarding my eventual demise, I too find the concept freeing... and I can't wait to get to RE, to free up my time for having fun.


Yes -- this exactly captures the mortality aspect of it for me.  It's not about depression or morbid dwelling.   Once you've worked through the issues of your mortality -- which can take a while -- there is a tremendous sense of freedom and lightness on the other side.   Once you have faced those issues, not much else in life will feel hard by comparison.  I feel braver and more at peace than ever.   I feel like I could fly.           

edgema

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2018, 04:55:04 AM »
I completely agree with the time value of money point and the arithmetic falls very differently depending on age and earnings.

If you are a financially very successful couple in their early 30s putting away 300k a year and have only been aggressively saving for say 5 years after paying off expensive student loans etc, then an extra year or two of market returns and cash additions makes an enormous difference in the size of the stash. Call it 600k plus 300k of market returns. To me it would be crazy not to buy the security that affords. 

If you are in a lower paying job, have been diligently saving 30k a year for 25 years but are now in your mid 50s then an extra year or two 1) doesn't have as big an impact on your stash and 2) is a bigger percentage of your active remaining life.

I am somewhere in the middle at 41 with a stash that I can grow by 20-25% over the next 15 months ($400k). To me, with no health issues that I know of, the cost-benefit is clear that another 450 days (yes I am counting) is worth it to further diminish risk.   

People also think of FI in different ways (I think). If you are the school of the stash being enough to sustain the basics then I would say that most people work considerably beyond this. Perhaps I am wrong but I think the genuine number of people FIREing on $25k a year and a $625k stash is quite small. On that definition I could have FIREd a long time ago so I am an example of someone working well beyond basic FIRE. 

Of course it also depends on the 'cost' of continuing to work. Do you enjoy it. Is it impacting your health. etc. It depends on the ease you could return to your career if you left. It depends on many things....

So there is no general answer to this question except that, in my opinion, what is most important is thinking carefully about what makes you tick as a person and solve for what is best for you.


soccerluvof4

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2018, 05:16:24 AM »
I wonder if a healthy respect for (or preoccupation with?) one's own mortality is a unifying characteristic of MMM types.  Though I didn't have any significant loss early in my life, I've always felt I was more acutely aware of my mortality than others. Like, I'm very aware that I could be hit by a bus at any time.  Or have a heart attack. Or get cancer.

Rather than being depressed, I've found this feeling makes me braver.  I'm already risking death everyday by just being a person walking around, so doing "scary" things isn't really all that scary.  If it goes wrong, I'll be just as dead as if I were hit by that bus.


My guiding motto is 'Accept it. Get over it. Move on.' I don't mean it in a flippant way and I accept that each step is sometimes difficult and/or protracted. A lot of people find the concept of death to be frightening or morbid, but having got to the 'move on' stage regarding my eventual demise, I too find the concept freeing... and I can't wait to get to RE, to free up my time for having fun.


Yes -- this exactly captures the mortality aspect of it for me.  It's not about depression or morbid dwelling.   Once you've worked through the issues of your mortality -- which can take a while -- there is a tremendous sense of freedom and lightness on the other side.   Once you have faced those issues, not much else in life will feel hard by comparison.  I feel braver and more at peace than ever.   I feel like I could fly.         


Mortality is inevitable we all know that so I dont dwell on it to much but occasionally when someone passes BUT I do concern myslf more with quality of life. While I am for the most part in good health (you never know what could be lurking) and need knee replacements for me having not taken care of sport injuries I feel I need to do alot of things now then wait till I am in my 60's or 70's. 

itchyfeet

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2018, 06:02:40 AM »
I certainly consider what each extra dollar of spending power will give DW and I.

The cost of a moderate lifestyle was covered by my stash a few years ago, and each extra year we work is paying for very specific excesses:

  - House/ apartment in a prime location
  - Large budget for international travel
  - Enough to allow for either a 2nd car or a luxury car
  - Enough for season tickets every year for the theatre and/ or basketball

But on each point DW and I debate and draw a line in the sand

  - Yes, an apartment in a prime location, but a modest apartment. Def not willing to work a few years to save an extra $500K
  - Yes, lots of travel but in economy class. Not willing to work an extra year to fly business class for future trips
  - Yes to potentially 2 cars, but no to luxury cars. Sigh, ok.
  - ok for season tickets if financial returns allow. Not going to,work extra years to pay for them.

We will FIRE before we are rich (how much is that in $ these days anyways) but will have plenty to finance an awesome lifestyle and a budget that is above the median for Australian households. We will focus our spending carefully to get the maximum bang for our bucks.

BTDretire

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2018, 06:25:08 AM »
 Rich! But that needs defining for this thread.
I am comfortable with the 4% rule.
I would not feel comfortable retiring with an income of $25,000.
I would not feel comfortable retiring with an income of $40,000.
 When I'm up around $50,000 plus that seems like a resonable income
to live on. That number also puts you in the middle of US household
income. 50% of households make more 50% make less.
 I think we all would agree $50,000 of yearly income does not
make you rich, but not having to work for the $50,000 does.

PhilB

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Re: Retire or Rich
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2018, 06:55:16 AM »
Rich! But that needs defining for this thread.
I am comfortable with the 4% rule.
I would not feel comfortable retiring with an income of $25,000.
I would not feel comfortable retiring with an income of $40,000.
 When I'm up around $50,000 plus that seems like a resonable income
to live on. That number also puts you in the middle of US household
income. 50% of households make more 50% make less.
 I think we all would agree $50,000 of yearly income does not
make you rich, but not having to work for the $50,000 does.
That may be the median US household income, but the median household is presumably having to pay rent/mortgage and save for retirement out of that.  If you have that income without those big ticket costs you are going to look pretty rich to a very large percentage of the population.