Author Topic: Republican Tax Plan 2017  (Read 72142 times)

FIREchiefsr

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #850 on: December 01, 2017, 06:42:42 PM »
I found several reports suggesting that it would be a "modified" AMT with higher thresholds and larger exemptions.  It would almost have to be if they don't want to immediately cancel the tax reductions for a large number of upper middle class workers.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #851 on: December 01, 2017, 07:34:22 PM »
Chuck the Schmuck is still desperately trying to plead his case but it's all but already law, other than going to conference committee.  I hope you all don't shed too many tears when you pay fewer taxes next year.

ixtap

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #852 on: December 01, 2017, 07:41:48 PM »
One report I read of last minute amendments said that there is an exemption from the endowment tax that is specific to one (well connected) college in Michigan.

And cruise ports in Alaska.

sherr

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #853 on: December 01, 2017, 07:51:32 PM »
Chuck the Schmuck is still desperately trying to plead his case but it's all but already law, other than going to conference committee.  I hope you all don't shed too many tears when you pay fewer taxes next year.

Incredibly unlikely for me. I assumed that the R's tax bill would pass. Knowing that the increase in the standard deduction would smack the living heck out of the below-the-line charitable giving deduction (and therefore charitable giving itself since they're highly correlated), I took Taxes' advice and opened a DAF and gave a bunch to charity. My taxes are going to be incredibly low this year. I hope you enjoy the tears of those around you when the Republican's "starve the beast" strategy comes home to roost and the most vulnerable people in society are suffering for it.

Paul der Krake

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jean

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #855 on: December 01, 2017, 09:17:21 PM »
Updated bill is ready.  It is on the Senate finance committee site, but the news orgs have searchable PDFs instead of images.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0

The removal of my pet loophole seems to have been dropped (combining the 457b limit) if I'm reading it correctly.  Not that it changes my position...

I can't tell what they did with the grad student taxable tuition thing.

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #856 on: December 01, 2017, 10:31:27 PM »
Updated bill is ready.  It is on the Senate finance committee site, but the news orgs have searchable PDFs instead of images.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0

The removal of my pet loophole seems to have been dropped (combining the 457b limit) if I'm reading it correctly.  Not that it changes my position...

I can't tell what they did with the grad student taxable tuition thing.

No one can tell anything.  They distributed all 500 pages four hours ago, and have already marked up that version with hand-written changes.  No one knows what's actually in this bill.  No one has actually read it.  Republicans just shut down a Democratic motion to postone the vote until Monday to give people a chance to actually read it.  Looks like they'e trying to pass it tonight, consequences be damned.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #857 on: December 01, 2017, 10:38:25 PM »
The amendments discussed so far are kinda cute. Rubio and Cruz wanted larger child tax credits and expanded 529s, respectively.

Finances_With_Purpose

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #858 on: December 01, 2017, 10:40:50 PM »
Updated bill is ready.  It is on the Senate finance committee site, but the news orgs have searchable PDFs instead of images.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0

The removal of my pet loophole seems to have been dropped (combining the 457b limit) if I'm reading it correctly.  Not that it changes my position...

I can't tell what they did with the grad student taxable tuition thing.

Which particular loophole are you speaking of?  And how did they propose to eliminate it?  (I haven't kept up with all the iterations of it - waiting until it's closer to final, as I assume it'll keep changing right up until near the end.) 

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #859 on: December 01, 2017, 10:42:14 PM »
The amendments discussed so far are kinda cute. Rubio and Cruz wanted larger child tax credits and expanded 529s, respectively.

Cruz's amendment isn't for "expanded" 529s, it's to allow Christian home-schoolers to tax shelter any income they spend on homeschooling, including the fraction of their home allocated to homeschooling and all of the food supplied during the "school day".  It's an ugly farce. 

Just another federal giveaway to the religious right.  Move along, there's nothing new to see here.

sherr

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #860 on: December 01, 2017, 10:45:19 PM »
Updated bill is ready.  It is on the Senate finance committee site, but the news orgs have searchable PDFs instead of images.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0

The removal of my pet loophole seems to have been dropped (combining the 457b limit) if I'm reading it correctly.  Not that it changes my position...

I can't tell what they did with the grad student taxable tuition thing.

No one can tell anything.  They distributed all 500 pages four hours ago, and have already marked up that version with hand-written changes.  No one knows what's actually in this bill.  No one has actually read it.  Republicans just shut down a Democratic motion to postone the vote until Monday to give people a chance to actually read it.  Looks like they'e trying to pass it tonight, consequences be damned.

"A great national debate now begins. It should not be a partisan debate, for the authors of tax reform come from all parties, and all of us want greater fairness, incentives, and simplicity in taxation." - Ronald Reagan

Oh how low and how despicably the Republicans have fallen.

"Oh but Obamacare - that was debated for well over a year and had many open hearings and expert testimony and industry representatives all having plenty of time to weigh in - was also passed in a rushed final vote, so really both parties are the same so you might as well vote Republican." -Republicans

jean

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #861 on: December 01, 2017, 11:33:31 PM »
Updated bill is ready.  It is on the Senate finance committee site, but the news orgs have searchable PDFs instead of images.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0

The removal of my pet loophole seems to have been dropped (combining the 457b limit) if I'm reading it correctly.  Not that it changes my position...

I can't tell what they did with the grad student taxable tuition thing.

Which particular loophole are you speaking of?  And how did they propose to eliminate it?  (I haven't kept up with all the iterations of it - waiting until it's closer to final, as I assume it'll keep changing right up until near the end.)

You have the right approach by not keeping up! There was a proposal to combine the 18k limit for 457(b) with the (currently separate) 18k limit for a 401k/403b. There isn't a good reason for these to be separate (IMO) and I didn't think there was any political will (aka lobbyists) to save it. My spouse has access to both, so I was interested and watching this.

If you had a handful of things you hated in the senate bill, it is not impossible to see if they are still in this latest thing, if you knew where they were in the last released bill.  But most of us rely on news summaries (including me, for the other things I hated). 

The amendments discussed so far are kinda cute. Rubio and Cruz wanted larger child tax credits and expanded 529s, respectively.

So, why are these particular amendments being debated when a bunch of stuff seemed to change behind closed doors and were simply presented as part of the new bill?  This is confusing.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #862 on: December 01, 2017, 11:41:14 PM »
The amendments discussed so far are kinda cute. Rubio and Cruz wanted larger child tax credits and expanded 529s, respectively.

So, why are these particular amendments being debated when a bunch of stuff seemed to change behind closed doors and were simply presented as part of the new bill?  This is confusing.
Not a legislative expert, but my understanding is that amendments are proposed by Senators directly, then a committee determines whether it's worth "debating" (just giving it airtime, really) on the floor. This process happens in parallel to the normal bill drafting process.

sherr

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #863 on: December 01, 2017, 11:53:16 PM »
The amendments discussed so far are kinda cute. Rubio and Cruz wanted larger child tax credits and expanded 529s, respectively.

So, why are these particular amendments being debated when a bunch of stuff seemed to change behind closed doors and were simply presented as part of the new bill?  This is confusing.
Not a legislative expert, but my understanding is that amendments are proposed by Senators directly, then a committee determines whether it's worth "debating" (just giving it airtime, really) on the floor. This process happens in parallel to the normal bill drafting process.

It's a politics thing. The "behind closed doors" bits are the actual serious parts. The Rubio-Cruz child tax credits that are not behind closed doors are so that Rubio and Cruz can go back and say "Hey at least we tried. Vote for us again, we're one of the good Republicans". They know it'll never be added and they don't care because that's not the point.

Johnez

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #864 on: December 01, 2017, 11:56:23 PM »
51-49 pass. On to the House. An I gonna get my $4,000 raise this year, or next???

Exflyboy

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #865 on: December 02, 2017, 12:12:56 AM »
What a shit show!

Johnez

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #866 on: December 02, 2017, 12:19:56 AM »
At least our 401ks will ride high for a while longer. It is going to be an interesting time for sure.

ZiziPB

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #867 on: December 02, 2017, 04:22:03 AM »
Wow, just wow.  I've read somewhere that AMT is back?

Anyway, as many of us were saying before, it's all about the corporate rate cut to 20%.  The rest is just window dressing.  Window dressing specifically designed to hurt us all.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 04:55:28 AM by ZiziPB »



radram

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #868 on: December 02, 2017, 07:22:49 AM »
Anyway, at least changing the step-up basis would be prudent - seems crazy not to.  Unrealized capital gains (not family businesses!) account for a large share of estates that get hit with the estate tax.
If you're advocating getting rid of the step-up in basis, I think that's a bad idea from a practical perspective.

When did Grandpa buy those shares? What were the basis figures on the dates of those various purchases? How much was the result of dividend reinvestments? When were those purchases? What was the share count and cost basis of those shares?

A paperwork and logistical nightmare as compared to "what day did Grandpa die? what were the shares worth on that day? Perfect; glad to have that taken care of in 5 minutes."

Sounds pretty simple to me: if it is worth it to you to keep track, you will. Since when is laziness a valid reason to be sloppy. When alive, grandpa needed to keep track of the cost basis if he wanted to sell in order to not pay a tax on the purchase price. Why upon death is that information suddenly lost? This is especially true in today's world of electronic data storage. Your broker already does this work for you.

Not to mention the fact that an old grandpa will have unrealized earnings that will most likely dwarf the sale price. If is was purchased so long ago that the records are lost, it is probably upwards of 90% unrealized gains anyway. Unless grandpa was a day trader, so then he kept track of those things.

I sure can see why the step-up is a desired outcome, but needed because of piss poor accounting? You didn't sell me.

CoffeeRoyal

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #869 on: December 02, 2017, 07:34:21 AM »
Are there any changes to 401K/403B or other retirement vehicles in the senate plan? I know there where some changes proposed, but I do not know what got in and what was left out.

Patches

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #870 on: December 02, 2017, 07:37:50 AM »
Senate added a nice windfall for pass thru entities.  For a few years anyway...

"Most businesses in the United States are organized as “pass through” companies (sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs and S corporations) where the income from the business is “passed through” to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rate. Under this bill, most pass-through businesses wouldn't have to pay tax on 23 percent of their income. The idea is to give mom-and-pop shops a sizable tax break. But there are limitations. Law firms, doctor's offices and other “service businesses” that earn over $250,000 wouldn't be eligible for the deduction. Other really large pass-through businesses would have a limit on how much they can deduct." -WaPo

radram

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #871 on: December 02, 2017, 07:42:19 AM »

Not if the House just passes the Senate version. Which IMO is much more likely than reconciliation + problem solving + both houses passing an improved version.
+1 on this thought. Most likely House R's already have the votes to pass as is in order to keep a revised bill out of the senate that they could screw up.

I think that was why McCain voted no on ACA repeal. He knew whatever was passed would be the bill, not just the beginning of negotiations.Tax cuts are much easier, because they believe if it turns out to be a disaster, they can always raise them again, figuring the D's will go along with any tax increase.

sokoloff

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #872 on: December 02, 2017, 07:51:02 AM »
Anyway, at least changing the step-up basis would be prudent - seems crazy not to.  Unrealized capital gains (not family businesses!) account for a large share of estates that get hit with the estate tax.
If you're advocating getting rid of the step-up in basis, I think that's a bad idea from a practical perspective.

When did Grandpa buy those shares? What were the basis figures on the dates of those various purchases? How much was the result of dividend reinvestments? When were those purchases? What was the share count and cost basis of those shares?

A paperwork and logistical nightmare as compared to "what day did Grandpa die? what were the shares worth on that day? Perfect; glad to have that taken care of in 5 minutes."
Sounds pretty simple to me: if it is worth it to you to keep track, you will. Since when is laziness a valid reason to be sloppy. When alive, grandpa needed to keep track of the cost basis if he wanted to sell in order to not pay a tax on the purchase price. Why upon death is that information suddenly lost? This is especially true in today's world of electronic data storage. Your broker already does this work for you.
My broker is only obligated to do that for shares purchased in the last few years (I cited the exact cutoff up thread).
Not to mention the fact that an old grandpa will have unrealized earnings that will most likely dwarf the sale price. If is was purchased so long ago that the records are lost, it is probably upwards of 90% unrealized gains anyway. Unless grandpa was a day trader, so then he kept track of those things.

I sure can see why the step-up is a desired outcome, but needed because of piss poor accounting?
If the shares were purchased prior to the requirement for basis tracking by the broker and grandpa knew that he was never going to sell them in his lifetime and that there would be a step-up in basis on death, it's perfectly reasonable accounting to not track the basis. (This happens to be the situation we found ourselves in upon my grandfather's death last year. He bought shares in companies all through his life [as a coal miner, so no multi-million dollar estate here] and I'm not sure he ever sold anything.)

wenchsenior

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #873 on: December 02, 2017, 07:55:16 AM »
I am unbelievably disgusted with Susan Collins right now.  I really thought she might hold out against this monstrosity.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #874 on: December 02, 2017, 08:11:06 AM »
Just more proof Republicans don't give a shit about you. Or democracy.  This was all about paying off their billionaire donors. That's it. Fuck them.

And goddammit stop voting GOP. These assholes have no idea how to govern, don't care about anyone but themselves and the top 0.1%.  Remember the complaints from them about Obamacare being passed too quickly? That pesky legislation that had numerous public hearings, mark ups, debate...that one.  They just passed a bill no one has even read, written by Wall Street lobbyists, and are happy about it.

Fuck them all. Stop voting GOP.
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radram

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #875 on: December 02, 2017, 08:40:46 AM »
Anyway, at least changing the step-up basis would be prudent - seems crazy not to.  Unrealized capital gains (not family businesses!) account for a large share of estates that get hit with the estate tax.
If you're advocating getting rid of the step-up in basis, I think that's a bad idea from a practical perspective.

When did Grandpa buy those shares? What were the basis figures on the dates of those various purchases? How much was the result of dividend reinvestments? When were those purchases? What was the share count and cost basis of those shares?

A paperwork and logistical nightmare as compared to "what day did Grandpa die? what were the shares worth on that day? Perfect; glad to have that taken care of in 5 minutes."
Sounds pretty simple to me: if it is worth it to you to keep track, you will. Since when is laziness a valid reason to be sloppy. When alive, grandpa needed to keep track of the cost basis if he wanted to sell in order to not pay a tax on the purchase price. Why upon death is that information suddenly lost? This is especially true in today's world of electronic data storage. Your broker already does this work for you.
My broker is only obligated to do that for shares purchased in the last few years (I cited the exact cutoff up thread).
Not to mention the fact that an old grandpa will have unrealized earnings that will most likely dwarf the sale price. If is was purchased so long ago that the records are lost, it is probably upwards of 90% unrealized gains anyway. Unless grandpa was a day trader, so then he kept track of those things.

I sure can see why the step-up is a desired outcome, but needed because of piss poor accounting?
If the shares were purchased prior to the requirement for basis tracking by the broker and grandpa knew that he was never going to sell them in his lifetime and that there would be a step-up in basis on death, it's perfectly reasonable accounting to not track the basis. (This happens to be the situation we found ourselves in upon my grandfather's death last year. He bought shares in companies all through his life [as a coal miner, so no multi-million dollar estate here] and I'm not sure he ever sold anything.)

After I posted I noticed I missed an entire page of posts I have since read. Thank you for the detail on the dates those transaction records were required. Should have been decades ago. Seems to me there should be a way to come up with a reasonable compromise other than throwing up my hands and saying, fuck it, I can't figure this shit out. Maybe allow step-up for items purchased prior to the forced recording, or maybe use the arbitrary date of purchase to be the mandatory recording date, unless evidence exists of the actual date.The problem with the latter solution is that it picks an arbitrary and false purchase date, just like the current step-up rule does. Solving a problem by doing more of it. I think I have the makings of the start of my political career :)

So then is your opinion that yes, lack of records is a perfectly valid reason to step-up a cost basis, avoiding paying taxes on millions(or billions) of unrealized gains, but only once they die?

Perfectly valid opinion I simply disagree with. Thank you for the discussion. Have a great weekend.

radram

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #876 on: December 02, 2017, 08:47:42 AM »
Does anyone know how the House/Senate bills treat Form 709?

If you can gift today and use your lifetime exemption while still alive, and the lifetime exemption limit is removed(house version), doesn't that effectively mean there is no such thing as a tax on any gift, allowing trillions to transfer tax free the first day the bill is law?

If I read correctly, Senate version doubles the current limit, while house version eliminated the limit.

wenchsenior

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #877 on: December 02, 2017, 09:14:34 AM »
Just more proof Republicans don't give a shit about you. Or democracy.  This was all about paying off their billionaire donors. That's it. Fuck them.

And goddammit stop voting GOP. These assholes have no idea how to govern, don't care about anyone but themselves and the top 0.1%.  Remember the complaints from them about Obamacare being passed too quickly? That pesky legislation that had numerous public hearings, mark ups, debate...that one.  They just passed a bill no one has even read, written by Wall Street lobbyists, and are happy about it.

Fuck them all. Stop voting GOP.

I haven't voted for a GOP candidate since a couple votes for McCain in the 1990s (and one vote for a GOP congressperson I despised, to prevent a libertarian whom I despised more from having a shot in a seat that no Dem could ever win).

But at least there used to be some GOP sanity prior to the Great Derangement that began with Clinton's election.

sokoloff

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #878 on: December 02, 2017, 09:28:13 AM »
So then is your opinion that yes, lack of records is a perfectly valid reason to step-up a cost basis, avoiding paying taxes on millions(or billions) of unrealized gains, but only once they die?

Perfectly valid opinion I simply disagree with. Thank you for the discussion. Have a great weekend.
Basically, yes. Pragmatism and ease for a great many people with small sums over perfect fairness and a one-shot exploit for some. Your position is also perfectly reasonable and consistent; good weekend to you as well!

accolay

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #879 on: December 02, 2017, 09:31:13 AM »
So if the corporate tax rate is now set at 20% instead of 35%...then the effective tax rate for them will all probably be ... ? (if they're not already receiving a refund)?

Slightly off topic but how long will it be before this helps to contribute to the next economic crash/correction? Assuming we're probably due or close to that anyway...

And about that debt...I'm not an economist, but for those in the know here: since we're experiencing the good times now, wouldn't it be smarter to pay off some debt now instead of adding to it? Just wondering...

gerardc

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #880 on: December 02, 2017, 09:33:50 AM »
So in summary we'll all pay a little less tax?

What happens to the backdoor/mega-backdoor Roth conversions?

Exflyboy

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #881 on: December 02, 2017, 09:56:24 AM »
So if the corporate tax rate is now set at 20% instead of 35%...then the effective tax rate for them will all probably be ... ? (if they're not already receiving a refund)?

Slightly off topic but how long will it be before this helps to contribute to the next economic crash/correction? Assuming we're probably due or close to that anyway...

And about that debt...I'm not an economist, but for those in the know here: since we're experiencing the good times now, wouldn't it be smarter to pay off some debt now instead of adding to it? Just wondering...

But you see that would assume we are acting on logic. This is not logic, this is about pandering to well heeled interest groups and brainwashing a very ill informed electorate that have drunk the Kool-Aid a long time ago..

Drain the swamp.. Riiight.

It is amazing just how poor people vote against their interests though.

Undecided

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #882 on: December 02, 2017, 10:02:08 AM »
So in summary we'll all pay a little less tax?

What happens to the backdoor/mega-backdoor Roth conversions?

Many will, initially; far fewer will over time, as many will instead see taxes rise, assuming the same real income. Whether the trivial savings for most who see cuts will even make up for the other effects they experience remains to be seen.

accolay

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #883 on: December 02, 2017, 10:02:28 AM »
But you see that would assume we are acting on logic.

Who's this "we"?

This is what happens when they don't put me in charge...

jleo

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #884 on: December 02, 2017, 10:06:05 AM »
Senate added a nice windfall for pass thru entities.  For a few years anyway...

"Most businesses in the United States are organized as “pass through” companies (sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs and S corporations) where the income from the business is “passed through” to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rate. Under this bill, most pass-through businesses wouldn't have to pay tax on 23 percent of their income. The idea is to give mom-and-pop shops a sizable tax break. But there are limitations. Law firms, doctor's offices and other “service businesses” that earn over $250,000 wouldn't be eligible for the deduction. Other really large pass-through businesses would have a limit on how much they can deduct." -WaPo

I am a passthrough business what do you mean by we don't have to pay tax on 23 percent of our income I know there will be a decrease but how did you get to 23%?

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #885 on: December 02, 2017, 10:09:10 AM »
Perfectly valid opinion I simply disagree with. Thank you for the discussion. Have a great weekend.
Your position is also perfectly reasonable and consistent; good weekend to you as well!

I'm pretty sure this means the internet is broken this morning.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 10:11:42 AM by sol »

sokoloff

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #886 on: December 02, 2017, 10:11:16 AM »
I'm pretty sure this means the internet is broken this morning.
It will be repaired quickly, no doubt. It always is... ;)

jleo

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #887 on: December 02, 2017, 10:48:46 AM »
I am trying to figure out what my tax rate will be with this new tax plan, I am a LLC and file as an s corp as a passthrough to individual return and currently pay tax at an single individual tax rate.

Income 200k plus, single.

Would my entire 200k now be 25% taxed on personal side or how is this going to work?

Appreciate any help on understanding this!

Paul der Krake

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #888 on: December 02, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »
Does this bill still kill tax lots by imposing FIFO sales? Tried a few keywords, couldn't find a reference to it.

bacchi

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #889 on: December 02, 2017, 10:53:15 AM »
Senate added a nice windfall for pass thru entities.  For a few years anyway...

"Most businesses in the United States are organized as “pass through” companies (sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs and S corporations) where the income from the business is “passed through” to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rate. Under this bill, most pass-through businesses wouldn't have to pay tax on 23 percent of their income. The idea is to give mom-and-pop shops a sizable tax break. But there are limitations. Law firms, doctor's offices and other “service businesses” that earn over $250,000 wouldn't be eligible for the deduction. Other really large pass-through businesses would have a limit on how much they can deduct." -WaPo

I am a passthrough business what do you mean by we don't have to pay tax on 23 percent of our income I know there will be a decrease but how did you get to 23%?

That's the number in the Senate version.

Take advantage of it now. It was a disaster, as Kansas showed, and rates will go up again when revenues hit the floor.

Patches

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #890 on: December 02, 2017, 10:53:51 AM »
Senate added a nice windfall for pass thru entities.  For a few years anyway...

"Most businesses in the United States are organized as “pass through” companies (sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs and S corporations) where the income from the business is “passed through” to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rate. Under this bill, most pass-through businesses wouldn't have to pay tax on 23 percent of their income. The idea is to give mom-and-pop shops a sizable tax break. But there are limitations. Law firms, doctor's offices and other “service businesses” that earn over $250,000 wouldn't be eligible for the deduction. Other really large pass-through businesses would have a limit on how much they can deduct." -WaPo

I am a passthrough business what do you mean by we don't have to pay tax on 23 percent of our income I know there will be a decrease but how did you get to 23%?

I was just quoting the Washington Post... I read another paragraph on a different news site and it confirms the 23%.  Basically the income you show on your k-1 you get to reduce by 23%... Then are taxed normally on the rest. Kinda slick.

But I'm not holding my breath.  Seems to me that the Senate, rather than debating the things they disagreed about, just added into the bill everything in question and punted it back to Congress.

bacchi

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #891 on: December 02, 2017, 10:58:11 AM »
I am trying to figure out what my tax rate will be with this new tax plan, I am a LLC and file as an s corp as a passthrough to individual return and currently pay tax at an single individual tax rate.

Income 200k plus, single.

Would my entire 200k now be 25% taxed on personal side or how is this going to work?

Appreciate any help on understanding this!

No, 23% of your income is a deduction, per the Senate. The rest is taxed normally.

Save it for your old age medical bills, though, since Medicare will be cut.

Tax simplification at work. </s>

Gin1984

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #892 on: December 02, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »
So in summary we'll all pay a little less tax?

What happens to the backdoor/mega-backdoor Roth conversions?
My husband and I make a lot less than many people here.  We will have our taxes go up by $2500 mostly because of losing the daycare FSA and therefore losing much of the savers credit because we now need more taxable income to pay for daycare.  This assumes none of the changes from last night effect us because I have no finished reading all of them.

Undecided

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #893 on: December 02, 2017, 11:41:06 AM »
I am trying to figure out what my tax rate will be with this new tax plan, I am a LLC and file as an s corp as a passthrough to individual return and currently pay tax at an single individual tax rate.

Income 200k plus, single.

Would my entire 200k now be 25% taxed on personal side or how is this going to work?

Appreciate any help on understanding this!

No, 23% of your income is a deduction, per the Senate. The rest is taxed normally.

Save it for your old age medical bills, though, since Medicare will be cut.

Tax simplification at work. </s>

But is it a deduction that would be disallowed under the proposed AMT? I wonder how many Senators who voted in favor of the bill could answer that question.

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #894 on: December 02, 2017, 11:44:45 AM »
My husband and I make a lot less than many people here.  We will have our taxes go up by $2500 mostly because of losing the daycare FSA and therefore losing much of the savers credit because we now need more taxable income to pay for daycare. 

Perfect!  You should write a thank-you letter to Paul Ryan, expressing your gratitude for all of that new freedom.

I mean not your freedom in particular, because like all dirty poor people this is going to suck for you, but gratitude that you have so much more freedom because billionaires will now have lower taxes and that's got to be good for America, right?  #MAGA?

jean

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #895 on: December 02, 2017, 12:06:17 PM »
because of losing the daycare FSA.
That is being removed? I don't have kids, but wow. I can't find this in the current Senate bill, but that doesn't mean it is not there. Not sure exactly what I'm looking for.  Same with tuition benefits being taxable.

Here are a few things I noted:
  • The AMT is back, but with higher exemptions.
  • The estate tax remains, but is doubled. I can't quite figure out what they did with the gift tax - maybe increased it or left it alone.
  • Retirement plans have minor changes.  Some language about 457(e) that seems benign or helpful for anyone that has ever heard of a 457e.  Roth IRA re-characterizations are no longer allowed, but this is different than a conversion (which is what you need for backdoor Roth).

As people have said, this is not yet final until the house and senate approve a unified bill.

radram

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #896 on: December 02, 2017, 12:20:34 PM »
Perfectly valid opinion I simply disagree with. Thank you for the discussion. Have a great weekend.
Your position is also perfectly reasonable and consistent; good weekend to you as well!

I'm pretty sure this means the internet is broken this morning.
Thank's Obama.

FIREchiefsr

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #897 on: December 02, 2017, 12:21:54 PM »
The AMT numbers don't make sense.  They would still result in a joint filer at the top of the 24% bracket paying AMT, even if they're not claiming anything other than the standard deduction.  The whole AMT concept is designed to limit deductions and force some level of tax payments.  If somebody isn't deducting anything, I don't understand how they could still have to pay the AMT.

I tried to decipher the inflation adjustments, and it may be that the thresholds published in the bill (exemption and phaseout threshold), are in 2011 dollars, which will then be escalated to 2018 equivalents.  That would "almost" eliminate the AMT for the situation I described above.  I will be interested in hearing others' understanding of the revised AMT for individuals.

Edit:  I just ran the comparison of the published AMT thresholds against the original Senate brackets.  In this case, the AMT stays just below the 25% bracket top.  Do you suppose that when they wedged the AMT revival in at the eleventh hour they forgot to take into account their earlier amendment to reduce the brackets.  Nah, that would never happen in Washington.........would it?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 12:53:58 PM by FIREchiefsr »
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

Peter Parker

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #898 on: December 02, 2017, 02:05:16 PM »
I am trying to plan a post (apocalyptic) republican tax plan...

I live in a HCOLA (Bay Area).  You cannot find many homes less than $1,000,000....Now that we can no longer deduct all mortgage interest, I'm thinking  there may be downward pressure on housing prices--meaning I can no longer count on my home being what it was worth.  Therefore:

I will NOT be paying down my 30 year mortgage (i.e. making extra payments).  Instead I will wait and see what happens with housing prices, thus sharing the risk of downward pressure with the Bank.  Further since repubs value business over people, I'm going to be making a "business decision" should this event occur.  I will be banking ALL money that could have gone to my housing payment  AND if prices fall I will make a "business default" decision and walk from my home and pay cash for a depressed property.

Just trying to figure out what is best for me under this "me first" republican tax plan...

Any other ideas?  I'd like to know because the notion that we are looking out for the common good has flown out the window...
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 02:08:27 PM by Peter Parker »

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #899 on: December 02, 2017, 02:15:39 PM »
Any other ideas? 

The best game plan under this potential tax future is to just be a multimillionaire.  Be sure to earn at least $500k per year, preferably as a self employed person.

Better yet, be Ivanka Trump and just inherit your money.  Don't show any earned income at all, just profits to the business you own (but don't work at, so you don't have any salary).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 05:52:29 PM by sol »