Author Topic: Republican Tax Plan 2017  (Read 380945 times)

pecunia

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1150 on: December 10, 2017, 07:16:45 PM »
accolay wrote:
Quote
See: Oklahoma; Missouri

Did it work there?  Seems like the idea goes against common sense.  If I was loaded and was given a big tax cut,  I'd just pile it in an offshore account where it wouldn't be taxed.  Or - They would invest it in an almost sure thing like Chinese manufacturing and satisfy world demand.  Why invest it here?  People are left poorer after paying the rich man's taxes.  Ain't gonna be no demand for products cause people got no money.  Investing that money in a US factory when there is no demand is kinda stupid ain't it?

On the other hand, if a tax cut is given to folks who need money, what are they going to do with it?

Well - They'll spend it.  They will probably buy stuff they need.  When manufacturers see demand for their products rising, they will run more shifts, open more facilities, buy more raw materials and basically expand the economy.  They may spend some to help their kids through school or fix a leaky roof.

Yeh - It doesn't seem like this trickle down thing has really been thought through by the big dogs in charge.  You know - Somebody ought to really tell them.

 


Pizzabrewer

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1152 on: December 10, 2017, 07:46:11 PM »
EDIT: I'm sorry, I got that wrong, the top 10% pay 2.4 times as much in tax as the other 90%.

...and the top 10% hold 76% of the wealth.  More than 3 times as much as the other 90% 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1153 on: December 10, 2017, 08:44:36 PM »
MOAR DRAMA

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/10/politics/susan-collins-tax-reform-vote/index.html

So much potential for a spectacular season finale. The ratings are going to be through the roof.

powskier

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1154 on: December 10, 2017, 09:37:56 PM »
The smart ultra rich ( Ray Dalio, Warren Buffet to name but a few) are keenly aware that unless income inequality is improved in this country you will eventually see a shrinking economy which does not bode well for those of us wishing to live off investments.

This tax plan increases income inequality by shuttling the savings disproportionately to the top.

That folks at the bottom are so easy to manipulate with notions of religion/guns/whatever the trend seems bound to continue.
For better and for worse, America is weird. I'll just keep on increasing my allocation of VEA as a hedge.


dude

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1155 on: December 11, 2017, 07:41:45 AM »
The smart ultra rich ( Ray Dalio, Warren Buffet to name but a few) are keenly aware that unless income inequality is improved in this country you will eventually see a shrinking economy which does not bode well for those of us wishing to live off investments.

This tax plan increases income inequality by shuttling the savings disproportionately to the top.

That folks at the bottom are so easy to manipulate with notions of religion/guns/whatever the trend seems bound to continue.
For better and for worse, America is weird. I'll just keep on increasing my allocation of VEA as a hedge.

With the GOP assault on public education, from Betsy Devoss' Dept. of Education right down to the GOP tax plan -- removing the SALT deductions effectively means your local tax dollars that go to public schools are now going to be taxed federally -- the trend will not only continue, it will worsen. In case I haven't said it lately . . . oh nevermind.

[MOD NOTE:  F-bombs, sure.  F-U bombs toward other forum members are just going to escalate to the point where I have to lock the thread.]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:19:11 AM by dude »

RangerOne

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1156 on: December 11, 2017, 08:58:26 AM »
accolay wrote:
Quote
See: Oklahoma; Missouri

Did it work there?
Uh....no.

http://kgou.org/term/budget-shortfall-2017
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/missouri-faces-dire-budget-hole-may-need-million-in-cuts/article_a1c1542c-fc7f-535b-8f96-0608f165a939.html

On the other hand, if a tax cut is given to folks who need money, what are they going to do with it?
Probably just spend it on booze, women and movies like they always do.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/04/grassley-explains-why-people-dont-invest-booze-or-women-or-movies/?utm_term=.69aa30482873

Honestly even if they spent all the money on booze, women and movies, the economy would be better off. Last I checked those are all businesses happy to have more customers. And if people are paying for it with tax breaks I guess they aren't lazy because they are working enough to pay taxes in the first place....

Million2000

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1157 on: December 11, 2017, 09:22:07 AM »
accolay wrote:
Quote
See: Oklahoma; Missouri

Did it work there?  Seems like the idea goes against common sense.  If I was loaded and was given a big tax cut,  I'd just pile it in an offshore account where it wouldn't be taxed.  Or - They would invest it in an almost sure thing like Chinese manufacturing and satisfy world demand.  Why invest it here?  People are left poorer after paying the rich man's taxes.  Ain't gonna be no demand for products cause people got no money.  Investing that money in a US factory when there is no demand is kinda stupid ain't it?

On the other hand, if a tax cut is given to folks who need money, what are they going to do with it?

Well - They'll spend it.  They will probably buy stuff they need.  When manufacturers see demand for their products rising, they will run more shifts, open more facilities, buy more raw materials and basically expand the economy.  They may spend some to help their kids through school or fix a leaky roof.

Yeh - It doesn't seem like this trickle down thing has really been thought through by the big dogs in charge.  You know - Somebody ought to really tell them.

I no longer live in Oklahoma but grew up there and all my family lives there. It's like Kansas, and yeah, it didn't work there either. The Laffer curve is laughable. Some ideas put on napkins should just stay on napkins.

simonsez

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1158 on: December 11, 2017, 11:54:11 AM »
I find the idea of cutting social security without making any changes to our payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them completely absurd.
While I'm certainly not arguing for social security cuts, it is worth noting that under currently law we're going to be spending more on those programs each year than the payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them bring in each year.

Last year the social security payroll tax (plus income taxes charged on benefits) brought in $869 billion, but $910 billion was paid out. Which is a small gap, but one that keeps getting bigger every year.*

*Right now that gap is covered by interest on treasury bonds purchased by social security years ago when the program is running a surplus, but the gap is projected to exceed this interest income in 2021, and the bonds themselves are projected to all have been sold to cover annual payments by 2034.
Source for all numbers: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/
When S.S. was introduced, the benefit age was higher than expected life expectancy at birth.  I'm not saying that should track perfectly moving forward but I'd be fine with having the FRA continue to increase incrementally to at least 70 years rather than the current 67 (grandfathering as appropriate).  On the revenue side, I think it makes sense to index the payroll ceiling with inflation.

ixtap

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1159 on: December 11, 2017, 12:01:56 PM »
I find the idea of cutting social security without making any changes to our payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them completely absurd.
While I'm certainly not arguing for social security cuts, it is worth noting that under currently law we're going to be spending more on those programs each year than the payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them bring in each year.

Last year the social security payroll tax (plus income taxes charged on benefits) brought in $869 billion, but $910 billion was paid out. Which is a small gap, but one that keeps getting bigger every year.*

*Right now that gap is covered by interest on treasury bonds purchased by social security years ago when the program is running a surplus, but the gap is projected to exceed this interest income in 2021, and the bonds themselves are projected to all have been sold to cover annual payments by 2034.
Source for all numbers: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/
When S.S. was introduced, the benefit age was higher than expected life expectancy at birth.  I'm not saying that should track perfectly moving forward but I'd be fine with having the FRA continue to increase incrementally to at least 70 years rather than the current 67 (grandfathering as appropriate).  On the revenue side, I think it makes sense to index the payroll ceiling with inflation.

Yes, it seems to me to be appropriate to start benefits at 65 and move FRA to 70.

But then, I also think retirement plans should be removed from employment. Let's all have a $20k IRA, with no 401k, 401a, 403b, 479, 666...

fuzzy math

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1160 on: December 11, 2017, 12:28:51 PM »
I find the idea of cutting social security without making any changes to our payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them completely absurd.
While I'm certainly not arguing for social security cuts, it is worth noting that under currently law we're going to be spending more on those programs each year than the payroll taxes which are supposed to pay for them bring in each year.

Last year the social security payroll tax (plus income taxes charged on benefits) brought in $869 billion, but $910 billion was paid out. Which is a small gap, but one that keeps getting bigger every year.*

*Right now that gap is covered by interest on treasury bonds purchased by social security years ago when the program is running a surplus, but the gap is projected to exceed this interest income in 2021, and the bonds themselves are projected to all have been sold to cover annual payments by 2034.
Source for all numbers: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/
When S.S. was introduced, the benefit age was higher than expected life expectancy at birth.  I'm not saying that should track perfectly moving forward but I'd be fine with having the FRA continue to increase incrementally to at least 70 years rather than the current 67 (grandfathering as appropriate).  On the revenue side, I think it makes sense to index the payroll ceiling with inflation.

they need to raise the SS cap each year so collections meet up with out lays. General inflation is not at all close to keeping up with health care inflation.

70 yrs for full retirement is ridiculous, but I suppose it's essentially the same as only paying out 75% of projected benefits which is what we're facing now. It does concern me thinking about all those elderly ppl out there who are working who should not be and whatever mistakes are occurring. Allowing these people to retire opens up more jobs for younger people.

maizefolk

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1161 on: December 11, 2017, 12:38:23 PM »
When S.S. was introduced, the benefit age was higher than expected life expectancy at birth.  I'm not saying that should track perfectly moving forward but I'd be fine with having the FRA continue to increase incrementally to at least 70 years rather than the current 67 (grandfathering as appropriate).  On the revenue side, I think it makes sense to index the payroll ceiling with inflation.

That's true, although you also have to remember a lot of the low life expectancy back then was caused by extremely high infant and childhood mortality relative to what we see today. If you die between the ages of 0 and 10 you have a big impact on overall life expectancy, but you're neither collecting social security nor paying into the social security fund in any meaningful fashion. The folks who did the most "good" for social security's balance sheets were the ones who lived into their late 50s early 60s, paying into the fund for decades before dropping dead. And life expectancy at 50 has changed significantly less than life expectancy at birth.

I completely agree with indexing the payroll ceiling to inflation (I didn't realize it wasn't already). Because so many people at the low end of the income spectrum appear to take social security the minute they become eligible at 62 while people with a lot of their own savings can put off taking the benefits until after FRA to maximize their payouts, raising the FRA acts is essentially a backdoor benefit cut that is focused more on low income/low net worth seniors than on the population as a whole. If a benefit cut ends up being necessary, maybe that's a politically more palatable approach than being upfront about reducing benefits, but if I had complete control over the program, somehow didn't answer to anyone who had to worry about getting reelected, but still needed to cut total spending, I'd prefer to cut benefits globally, which would have a more balanced effect on both high and low net worth individuals.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1162 on: December 11, 2017, 12:51:57 PM »
When S.S. was introduced, the benefit age was higher than expected life expectancy at birth.  I'm not saying that should track perfectly moving forward but I'd be fine with having the FRA continue to increase incrementally to at least 70 years rather than the current 67 (grandfathering as appropriate).  On the revenue side, I think it makes sense to index the payroll ceiling with inflation.

You also have to consider what those extra years look like. Even for a healthy, active individual, expecting them to continue working may not be reasonable.

People used to die younger, but the trajectory was different (decline was less gradual).

MDM

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1163 on: December 11, 2017, 01:12:15 PM »
I completely agree with indexing the payroll ceiling to inflation (I didn't realize it wasn't already).
Not CPI inflation, but this limit changes each year with changes in the national average wage index.

BTDretire

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1164 on: December 11, 2017, 02:06:28 PM »
Never understood those that think the government should keep taking a larger percentage of an ever increase piece of the pie and that we should continue to give more benefits to more and more people.
 Stop the Madness!

 Many Mustachians are trying to figure out how to pay the least taxes, get the most benefits
and have no understanding there is a limit to how much more the government can spend than it takes in. It's just like a family, pretty soon the credit card payment is due and the money to pay it is spent on the rent.
 Stop the Madness!

ARRGH!

protostache

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1165 on: December 11, 2017, 02:20:42 PM »
Never understood those that think the government should keep taking a larger percentage of an ever increase piece of the pie and that we should continue to give more benefits to more and more people.
 Stop the Madness!

 Many Mustachians are trying to figure out how to pay the least taxes, get the most benefits
and have no understanding there is a limit to how much more the government can spend than it takes in. It's just like a family, pretty soon the credit card payment is due and the money to pay it is spent on the rent.
 Stop the Madness!

ARRGH!

It's really, really not. Finances on the level of the Federal government are completely different than a family or a company experiences, in particular because the Federal government by way of the Federal Reserve can and does manipulate the money supply. We're not on a metal standard and neither is any other currency in the world these days, which means there's no finite supply of money like what we experienced during and after the Great Depression. The Fed will keep inflation within their target range.

At this point Federal taxes are basically a way to influence people's choices. The level of the debt simply doesn't matter. It will never get paid back, and it doesn't really make sense to think of it in those terms. Every single economist, no matter their political leanings, will tell you that the debt ceiling is an anachronism that no longer makes sense (it made very little to start with) and should be abolished.

simonsez

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1166 on: December 11, 2017, 02:22:10 PM »
Even for a healthy, active individual, expecting them to continue working may not be reasonable.
I expect them to plan a little bit during their earlier years.  For those that are not healthy, either physically or financially, we have SSDI and SSI.  Granted, laying the groundwork for personal finance needs to happen on an institutional level (i.e. a normal part of schooling) and is currently lacking.  I think a large proportion of retirees are over-reliant on S.S.  That is the reality but not the intent of the program.  Let's keep S.S. solvent while simultaneously having responsible spending and investing become a norm rather than some niche thing you discover on your own.

Now, if the reason they need to work in their late 60s is due to astronomical healthcare costs for a family member or something along those lines, they do have my sympathy but healthcare is a different nut to crack.  I purposely avoided healthcare in my prior post and only wanted to focus on S.S.  Maybe you can't talk S.S. in a vacuum without considering healthcare, who knows.

The FRA rules are based on incremental birth years that end at 1960.  Someone born in 1960 has the same rules as someone born in 2017 whereas someone born during the 1950s has 6 different FRAs.  That seems odd to me that the increments stopped so suddenly and are treated the same for a 57 (soon to be 58) year period.  I'm also open to keeping the minimum withdrawal age at 62 even if the FRA increases.  I can't speak to the validity of the 6%/year penalty for a period greater than 5 years but someone smarter than me could keep the low end withdrawal age the same without emptying the S.S. coffers while also instituting a fair penalty.

I'm also okay with allowing the delay-in-collecting bonus to be lower.  It's currently 8%/year while the penalty for withdrawing earlier is 6%/year.  Why not make them both 6%/year?  Again, this might have to be grandfathered to be fair to those who have been banking on policies for a long while.

Jrr85

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1167 on: December 11, 2017, 02:35:29 PM »

That's true, although you also have to remember a lot of the low life expectancy back then was caused by extremely high infant and childhood mortality relative to what we see today. If you die between the ages of 0 and 10 you have a big impact on overall life expectancy, but you're neither collecting social security nor paying into the social security fund in any meaningful fashion. The folks who did the most "good" for social security's balance sheets were the ones who lived into their late 50s early 60s, paying into the fund for decades before dropping dead. And life expectancy at 50 has changed significantly less than life expectancy at birth.

I completely agree with indexing the payroll ceiling to inflation (I didn't realize it wasn't already). Because so many people at the low end of the income spectrum appear to take social security the minute they become eligible at 62 while people with a lot of their own savings can put off taking the benefits until after FRA to maximize their payouts, raising the FRA acts is essentially a backdoor benefit cut that is focused more on low income/low net worth seniors than on the population as a whole. If a benefit cut ends up being necessary, maybe that's a politically more palatable approach than being upfront about reducing benefits, but if I had complete control over the program, somehow didn't answer to anyone who had to worry about getting reelected, but still needed to cut total spending, I'd prefer to cut benefits globally, which would have a more balanced effect on both high and low net worth individuals.
  Sort of.  Raising the FRA disproportionately hurts those who don't live as long.  That's presumably going to be correlated to income/wealth, although I'm guessing the difference in life expectancy between different income/wealth levels of those who make it to their early 60's isn't as large if you look at overall life expectancy. 

Arguably, raising the FRA is on net probably more helpful to the lower income, lower net worth.  A lot of people are going to be living on not much more than SS.  If you don't raise the FRA and instead just do a 25% cut to benefits, a lot of them are still going to quit working and take the money at 62.  If you make them wait until 65 to take any benefits in order to avoid cuts, a lot of them will work until 65, and have a better quality of life as a result. 

The ones that really can't make it to 65 are going to still have disability available (although it's going to be insolvent before regular SS, but presumably they;ll fix that).  That's still going to leave a lot of hard cases with people who aren't disabled but just can't find employment and people who manage to work but whose bodies have trouble handling it. 

Not sure how those trade-offs ultimately play out. 

albireo13

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1168 on: December 11, 2017, 04:47:48 PM »
What I don't understand are the heft tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations while, at the same time, reducing deductions for students
with student loan debt.  Really???  That's your priority?


Very revealing.

BTDretire

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1169 on: December 11, 2017, 05:25:40 PM »
Never understood those that think the government should keep taking a larger percentage of an ever increase piece of the pie and that we should continue to give more benefits to more and more people.
 Stop the Madness!

 Many Mustachians are trying to figure out how to pay the least taxes, get the most benefits
and have no understanding there is a limit to how much more the government can spend than it takes in. It's just like a family, pretty soon the credit card payment is due and the money to pay it is spent on the rent.
 Stop the Madness!

ARRGH!

It's really, really not. Finances on the level of the Federal government are completely different than a family or a company experiences, in particular because the Federal government by way of the Federal Reserve can and does manipulate the money supply.

 Do you mean that the government can spend as much as it wants. Clearly you don't, so government spending is limited, just like a families spending has a limit before it causes problems.

Quote
We're not on a metal standard and neither is any other currency in the world these days, which means there's no finite supply of money like what we experienced during and after the Great Depression. The Fed will keep inflation within their target range.

 You say "no Finite supply of money" I'm sure you don't mean there is an infinite supply of money before the excess causes problems!

Quote
At this point Federal taxes are basically a way to influence people's choices.
No, basically it is a source of income to run government programs.
Quote
The level of the debt simply doesn't matter.
I won't even explain why the level of debt matters, you know it does.

Quote
It will never get paid back, and it doesn't really make sense to think of it in those terms.
Thank God, we have agreement!
Quote
Every single economist, no matter their political leanings, will tell you that the debt ceiling is an anachronism that no longer makes sense (it made very little to start with) and should be abolished.
It makes no sense because when they (we) hit the ceiling they just raise it. If they said, we need to raise more money or cut spending because we hit the ceiling then we would be making progress.
  If you compare Total Federal Debt to Total Federal Revenue, our nation is number 3, where number 1 is the worst debt of all nations.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/07/12/forget-debt-as-a-percent-of-gdp-its-really-much-worse/#5c971d2e53ba

 

BTDretire

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1170 on: December 11, 2017, 05:34:01 PM »
What I don't understand are the heft tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations while, at the same time, reducing deductions for students
with student loan debt.  Really???  That's your priority?


Very revealing.
No sure what post you are responding to.
 I'm not concerned if the wealthy don't get a tax reduction, but I do
want the corporations to get cuts.
 Which deductions are being reduced for students?
Their debt is just that their debt, no relation to taxes at all.
If I buy a new car should we adjust taxes for that.

accolay

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1171 on: December 11, 2017, 05:38:43 PM »
I'm not concerned if the wealthy don't get a tax reduction, but I do want the corporations to get cuts.

Could you explain to me why tax cuts for corporations is a good idea again. No, really. Spell it out for me. Maybe I'm just completely missing something that's really obvious.

protostache

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1172 on: December 11, 2017, 05:49:32 PM »
Never understood those that think the government should keep taking a larger percentage of an ever increase piece of the pie and that we should continue to give more benefits to more and more people.
 Stop the Madness!

 Many Mustachians are trying to figure out how to pay the least taxes, get the most benefits
and have no understanding there is a limit to how much more the government can spend than it takes in. It's just like a family, pretty soon the credit card payment is due and the money to pay it is spent on the rent.
 Stop the Madness!

ARRGH!

It's really, really not. Finances on the level of the Federal government are completely different than a family or a company experiences, in particular because the Federal government by way of the Federal Reserve can and does manipulate the money supply.

 Do you mean that the government can spend as much as it wants. Clearly you don't, so government spending is limited, just like a families spending has a limit before it causes problems.

Quote
We're not on a metal standard and neither is any other currency in the world these days, which means there's no finite supply of money like what we experienced during and after the Great Depression. The Fed will keep inflation within their target range.

 You say "no Finite supply of money" I'm sure you don't mean there is an infinite supply of money before the excess causes problems!

Quote
At this point Federal taxes are basically a way to influence people's choices.
No, basically it is a source of income to run government programs.
Quote
The level of the debt simply doesn't matter.
I won't even explain why the level of debt matters, you know it does.

Quote
It will never get paid back, and it doesn't really make sense to think of it in those terms.
Thank God, we have agreement!
Quote
Every single economist, no matter their political leanings, will tell you that the debt ceiling is an anachronism that no longer makes sense (it made very little to start with) and should be abolished.
It makes no sense because when they (we) hit the ceiling they just raise it. If they said, we need to raise more money or cut spending because we hit the ceiling then we would be making progress.
  If you compare Total Federal Debt to Total Federal Revenue, our nation is number 3, where number 1 is the worst debt of all nations.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/07/12/forget-debt-as-a-percent-of-gdp-its-really-much-worse/#5c971d2e53ba

I mean exactly what I said. The Federal government can and will spend whatever Congress decides to spend. There is literally an infinite supply of money because the Fed can just create money. Remember Quantitative Easing? QEII? I don’t see this as either good or bad in and of itself. The thing that matters is the impact on the economy and the Fed seems to have done an ok job since the GFC.

The actual amount of taxes paid balanced against spending doesn’t matter and it hasn’t for many decades. Taxation policy effectively serves to level the playing field, or the opposite, depending on who is in charge. What we’re seeing now is people in Congress tipping the field toward the extremely affluent because they are explicitly bought and paid for by the extremely affluent. All of the rest of us are caught up in the Republican’s dual drives of serving their very small number of donors while appealing to their voter base with a very short term tax cut. Dealing a death blow to the social safety net is a bonus.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1173 on: December 12, 2017, 07:29:43 AM »
What I don't understand are the heft tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations while, at the same time, reducing deductions for students
with student loan debt.  Really???  That's your priority?


Very revealing.
No sure what post you are responding to.
 I'm not concerned if the wealthy don't get a tax reduction, but I do
want the corporations to get cuts.
 Which deductions are being reduced for students?
Their debt is just that their debt, no relation to taxes at all.
If I buy a new car should we adjust taxes for that.

The SL interest deduction.

Because fuck people with debt (except homeowners and corporations, they're cool)?

Trickle down never worked. It still doesn't work. It's a lie.

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1174 on: December 12, 2017, 08:05:37 AM »
Trickle down never worked. It still doesn't work. It's a lie.

Of course it's s lie.  But it's a necessary lie.

The republican party has always been a coalition of two diametrically opposed camps.  The first and more important one is supporting the interests rich people, but there aren't enough rich people to win a democratic election.  So they compromised with the second camp, supporting archaic cultural issues like gays and guns and religion, in order to convince poor people to vote for them.

Rich people don't actually care about the culture war stuff, that's just the bait to convince the deep south to support the party.  This is why so many republicans apparently vote against their own financial interests; they're not voting for tax breaks for billionaires they're voting for keeping women barefoot and pregnant, and the tax breaks for billionaires are just part of the package because that's the way the republican party is built.

Trump turned this game up to eleven.  He ramped up the racist rhetoric to get votes and he embodies the anti-populist billionaires boys club that the party is actually for.  The interesting part to me is what a complete 180 this is from the campaign trail, when he promised to help coal miners and the middle class.  His tax plan has abandoned any pretense of this, and is instead straight up Paul Ryan wet dream giveaway to the ultra rich paid for by tax increases on the middle class.

Anyway, trickle down economics is the necessary thread that binds together these two sides of the republican party.  It's the central lie off their coalition, the only way to rationalize why poor people should vote for things that billionaires want, like repealing the estate tax and lowering the corporate tax rate.  There aren't any proud rednecks in trailer parks who care if the estate tax gets repealed, but if they hear "trickle down"enough times they'll vote for it anyway.

So I'm no longer surprised when republicans consistently revisit such a thoroughly discredited lie.  They have to.  Billionaires can't win elections on their own, because they're just aren't enough of them.  They need the trickle down lie to maintain the viability of their entire party.

dude

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1175 on: December 12, 2017, 08:36:33 AM »
^^ as succinct a synopsis of the GOP as I've ever seen.

TexasRunner

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1176 on: December 12, 2017, 09:24:14 AM »


Talk about painting a fucking one-dimensional picture...

This is exactly why these conversations can never get anywhere.  Because keyboard sociologists and psychologists such as Sol paint half the fucking country with a single one-dimensional brush, “They’re too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests because they are all misogynic homophobes who care more about culturally defeating the ‘others’”.  Heaven forbid some of us actually agree that there should be a flat tax rate, or that the State’s social safety net should be a temporary Band-Aid to get someone back on their feet instead of a crutch that permanently disables them.

But its too fucking hard for people like Sol to imagine there are competent, rational people who vote libertarian or right-leaning for any other fucking reason than that they have been brainwashed and misled by billionaires into voting against their own interests.  There is no possible way that someone could rationally think that a white person and a black person should be admitted to college based on merit and not on race, because to do so is apparently fucking racist?????.....  Come again?  It is not possible that anyone on the right that isn’t a billionaire thinks that corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands (and can be taxed at that time).  Its not possible that anyone could think NAFTA is a fucking terrible deal simply because Mexico has almost nothing as a minimum wage and no environmental regulation that is enforced, and yet can bring products into the US duty free.  “To be against NAFTA is racist because you hate brown-skinned people!!!!”  No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

The political conversation in this country  is not going to go anywhere until people stop painting with single-stroke brushes.  Contrary to what many apparently think, not all Trump supports are Racist Misogynic Homophobic Idiot Assholes who only support lower corporate taxes because it comes with “Law against the other people”.

If I called the Democratic party out as a two party camp- one that wants to rule as an Plutocracy and the other that wants free shit despite the fact that it would make them a slave of the rich, I would probably get banned.

But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…


Undecided

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1177 on: December 12, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »


Talk about painting a fucking one-dimensional picture...

This is exactly why these conversations can never get anywhere.  Because keyboard sociologists and psychologists such as Sol paint half the fucking country with a single one-dimensional brush, “They’re too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests because they are all misogynic homophobes who care more about culturally defeating the ‘others’”.  Heaven forbid some of us actually agree that there should be a flat tax rate, or that the State’s social safety net should be a temporary Band-Aid to get someone back on their feet instead of a crutch that permanently disables them.

But its too fucking hard for people like Sol to imagine there are competent, rational people who vote libertarian or right-leaning for any other fucking reason than that they have been brainwashed and misled by billionaires into voting against their own interests.  There is no possible way that someone could rationally think that a white person and a black person should be admitted to college based on merit and not on race, because to do so is apparently fucking racist?????.....  Come again?  It is not possible that anyone on the right that isn’t a billionaire thinks that corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands (and can be taxed at that time).  Its not possible that anyone could think NAFTA is a fucking terrible deal simply because Mexico has almost nothing as a minimum wage and no environmental regulation that is enforced, and yet can bring products into the US duty free.  “To be against NAFTA is racist because you hate brown-skinned people!!!!”  No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

The political conversation in this country  is not going to go anywhere until people stop painting with single-stroke brushes.  Contrary to what many apparently think, not all Trump supports are Racist Misogynic Homophobic Idiot Assholes who only support lower corporate taxes because it comes with “Law against the other people”.

If I called the Democratic party out as a two party camp- one that wants to rule as an Plutocracy and the other that wants free shit despite the fact that it would make them a slave of the rich, I would probably get banned.

But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…

It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.

obstinate

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1178 on: December 12, 2017, 09:47:57 AM »
If I called the Democratic party out as a two party camp- one that wants to rule as an Plutocracy and the other that wants free shit despite the fact that it would make them a slave of the rich, I would probably get banned.

But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…
I don't mind. :) But Sol discussed two groups that are actually part of the Republican coalition ("moral majority" + donor class, these groups are well recognized and widely commented on, even among non-partisan spectators). While I've no doubt that there are would-be plutocrats among the Democrats, this is hardly a large part of the coalition. Besides some companies who have taken relatively small loans for green energy stuff, I don't see where you get that. As far as folks who want more social services from the government, do you think the poor and middle class in Europe are more slaves to the rich than the poor and middle class here? I'd guess if you'd asked them, they feel the opposite. I don't really see it.

As I said, no harm done w.r.t. name calling, but do try to be more accurate in your representations! :)

If it helps, I don't think Sol was trying to say that every single Republican is a member of the two groups he discussed. Just a substantial fraction.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1179 on: December 12, 2017, 09:52:05 AM »
If it helps, I don't think Sol was trying to say that every single Republican is a member of the two groups he discussed. Just a substantial fraction.

The two fractions that get the most attention from the party, coincidentally.

TexasRunner

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1180 on: December 12, 2017, 09:56:33 AM »

Talk about painting a fucking one-dimensional picture...

This is exactly why these conversations can never get anywhere.  Because keyboard sociologists and psychologists such as Sol paint half the fucking country with a single one-dimensional brush, “They’re too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests because they are all misogynic homophobes who care more about culturally defeating the ‘others’”.  Heaven forbid some of us actually agree that there should be a flat tax rate, or that the State’s social safety net should be a temporary Band-Aid to get someone back on their feet instead of a crutch that permanently disables them.

But its too fucking hard for people like Sol to imagine there are competent, rational people who vote libertarian or right-leaning for any other fucking reason than that they have been brainwashed and misled by billionaires into voting against their own interests.  There is no possible way that someone could rationally think that a white person and a black person should be admitted to college based on merit and not on race, because to do so is apparently fucking racist?????.....  Come again?  It is not possible that anyone on the right that isn’t a billionaire thinks that corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands (and can be taxed at that time).  Its not possible that anyone could think NAFTA is a fucking terrible deal simply because Mexico has almost nothing as a minimum wage and no environmental regulation that is enforced, and yet can bring products into the US duty free.  “To be against NAFTA is racist because you hate brown-skinned people!!!!”  No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

The political conversation in this country  is not going to go anywhere until people stop painting with single-stroke brushes.  Contrary to what many apparently think, not all Trump supports are Racist Misogynic Homophobic Idiot Assholes who only support lower corporate taxes because it comes with “Law against the other people”.

If I called the Democratic party out as a two party camp- one that wants to rule as an Plutocracy and the other that wants free shit despite the fact that it would make them a slave of the rich, I would probably get banned.

But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…

It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.

I do not appreciate being called anyone's "Lackey", and you completely disregarded my point above painting everyone with a one-dimensional brush.

Sorry I was frustrated.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:23:39 AM by TexasRunner »

ixtap

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1181 on: December 12, 2017, 09:58:09 AM »
So much for this thread.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1182 on: December 12, 2017, 10:01:07 AM »
It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.

Fuck You.

A. Why do we need a tax cut for business and rich people when the economy is strong?
B. How do we respond when the economy tanks, as it inevitably will, with tax rates already at record lows?
C. Why is government spending the only side of the equation where it's worth causing pain?

OurTown

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1183 on: December 12, 2017, 10:03:10 AM »
Rule #1 of internet forums:  DBAD  (don't be a dick).
Rule #2 of internet forums:  Why do you get so pissed off by other people's opinions?

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1184 on: December 12, 2017, 10:05:43 AM »
To tie this all back to the original thread, there is one party that desperately needs an accused pedophile to win an election today to stave off ultimate defeat of their tax plan in the Senate.

wenchsenior

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1185 on: December 12, 2017, 10:06:45 AM »

Talk about painting a fucking one-dimensional picture...

This is exactly why these conversations can never get anywhere.  Because keyboard sociologists and psychologists such as Sol paint half the fucking country with a single one-dimensional brush, “They’re too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests because they are all misogynic homophobes who care more about culturally defeating the ‘others’”.  Heaven forbid some of us actually agree that there should be a flat tax rate, or that the State’s social safety net should be a temporary Band-Aid to get someone back on their feet instead of a crutch that permanently disables them.

But its too fucking hard for people like Sol to imagine there are competent, rational people who vote libertarian or right-leaning for any other fucking reason than that they have been brainwashed and misled by billionaires into voting against their own interests.  There is no possible way that someone could rationally think that a white person and a black person should be admitted to college based on merit and not on race, because to do so is apparently fucking racist?????.....  Come again?  It is not possible that anyone on the right that isn’t a billionaire thinks that corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands (and can be taxed at that time).  Its not possible that anyone could think NAFTA is a fucking terrible deal simply because Mexico has almost nothing as a minimum wage and no environmental regulation that is enforced, and yet can bring products into the US duty free.  “To be against NAFTA is racist because you hate brown-skinned people!!!!”  No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

The political conversation in this country  is not going to go anywhere until people stop painting with single-stroke brushes.  Contrary to what many apparently think, not all Trump supports are Racist Misogynic Homophobic Idiot Assholes who only support lower corporate taxes because it comes with “Law against the other people”.

If I called the Democratic party out as a two party camp- one that wants to rule as an Plutocracy and the other that wants free shit despite the fact that it would make them a slave of the rich, I would probably get banned.

But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…

It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.

Fuck You.

You are incredibly silly.

BTDretire

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1186 on: December 12, 2017, 10:09:23 AM »
I'm not concerned if the wealthy don't get a tax reduction, but I do want the corporations to get cuts.

Could you explain to me why tax cuts for corporations is a good idea again. No, really. Spell it out for me. Maybe I'm just completely missing something that's really obvious.

 
 Lower corporate taxes will make us more competitive with other countries. Our corporations will sell more creating jobs.
 Lower corporate taxes will lower the cost of goods which is equivalent to giving people a raise.
 Lower corporate taxes will help keep inflation in check even as the economy booms.
 Lower corporate taxes will boost business investment, creating a larger tax base in the future.
 Lower corporate taxes will reduce shifting of profits overseas.
 Lower corporate taxes will  decrease the tax avoidance that companies use thru legal loopholes
 Lower corporate taxes will decrease time and money spent avoiding taxes.
 Lower corporate taxes will help small companies compete with big companies that hire teams of lawyers to exploit loopholes to reduce their tax bill, small companies can't afford the lawyers needed.
 Lower corporate taxes will increase employee wages.
 Lower corporate taxes will increase stockholder dividends
 Lower corporate taxes will increase foreign investment in the US

  Am I positive all these will happen? There will be several that happen, some will take time to develop,
and many will add their small part to the economic competitiveness and economic growth we want.

          Thanks for asking.         


 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1187 on: December 12, 2017, 10:11:05 AM »
@TexasRunner I have sympathies for some of the views you expressed.

Obamacare is a tax.
The safety net shouldn't create a dependency.
Taxes should be low (but a flat tax is a terrible idea).
Environmental regulations are important.
UBI is a pipe dream.
I have some doubts about affirmative action.
Voter ID laws aren't a ditch worth dying in, a view for which I've been called a racist both online and offline.

But none of this excuses the absolute garbage that the GOP of the last decade wraps what remains of their conservative views in order to get the votes of the batshit insane. Sol's view is pretty fucking on point there. The GOP as it currently stands is the party of idiots, and those who think the ends justifies the means, even if it means waging war on common sense.

Knock off the religious bullshit, stop giving a platform to conspiracy theorists of all stripes, get your house in order, and you may have a shot at luring back rational people. Until then, enjoy the company you have.

GuitarStv

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1188 on: December 12, 2017, 10:16:16 AM »
There is no possible way that someone could rationally think that a white person and a black person should be admitted to college based on merit and not on race, because to do so is apparently fucking racist?????.....  Come again? 

This is a tricky topic.

At one point I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you.  Admissions to college, police forces, fire departments, and hiring should be totally based on merit.

There's kinda a catch 22 that institutionalize racism has built up over the years regarding certain minorities though.  Inequality regarding incarceration rates, education, geographic location, available schooling, and wealth mean that fewer black kids will perform as well as white kids.  This all means that fewer black kids will have good role models and families supportive/able to fund higher education, which spirals over and over again.  The idea behind inequality in acceptance practices is to slowly try to fix the inequality that currently exists.

Currently, I'm kinda torn on the issue.  I see the inherent unfairness in affirmative action.  You're choosing people who are less qualified because of skin colour.  But I also see the inherent unfairness in the current system . . . where there are greater obstacles for people of a particular skin colour to overcome and it's not a level playing field.

When we're discussing racism, there are certainly some folks who fight affirmative action because they don't like minorities.  I wouldn't tar everyone on the 'no affirmative action' side as racist though, and Sol didn't in his post.


It is not possible that anyone on the right that isn’t a billionaire thinks that corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands (and can be taxed at that time).

This I do flat out disagree with.  Large corporations are very good at moving money around to avoid taxation.  The money will eventually fall into someone's hands, but those hands aren't necessarily ever going to be taxed by your countries tax system.


Its not possible that anyone could think NAFTA is a fucking terrible deal simply because Mexico has almost nothing as a minimum wage and no environmental regulation that is enforced, and yet can bring products into the US duty free.  “To be against NAFTA is racist because you hate brown-skinned people!!!!”

Again, at one point I was totally on your side regarding NAFTA.  Tariffs sound like a great idea to protect a countries businesses.  There is the argument that we don't want to be protecting the type of low wage, low education assembly jobs that are lost due to NAFTA though . . . and that a country benefits more from the lower prices of goods created elsewhere than the higher prices/slight increase in unskilled jobs that ending it would bring.  Both arguments have valid points.

Does anyone say that disliking NAFTA is racist though?  I've honestly never heard that before.  Sol certainly didn't say it.

No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

Costs were increased on the middle class (and upper class) via Obamacare . . . and they were increased in order to pay for poor people having health care.  You might not hate poor people . . . but it sounds like you're willing to let them go uninsured to save a few bucks from people who need the money less.  Is that correct, or a misreading of your position?

Contrary to what many apparently think, not all Trump supports are Racist Misogynic Homophobic Idiot Assholes who only support lower corporate taxes because it comes with “Law against the other people”.

Not all Trump supporters fall into this category.  What's disturbing though, is that the ones who obviously do appear to be happily tolerated by the ones who don't.  Look at the full Trump/republican support of a candidate like Roy Moore . . . a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, pedophile.  Stop supporting these people, and I suspect that many of the claims of racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc. will stop coming up.  But you can't have a president who says that marching neo-nazis are good people and then pretend to be confused by cries of racism.

sokoloff

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1189 on: December 12, 2017, 10:16:49 AM »
It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.
Fuck You.
You are incredibly silly.
In (right) before the lock...

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1190 on: December 12, 2017, 10:20:46 AM »
Voter ID laws aren't a ditch worth dying in, a view for which I've been called a racist both online and offline.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, considering the number of people who have fought, died, been injured, imprisoned, etc. over their suffrage rights.

Now, if you want to make it easier for everyone to get a free ID, then we can talk.

sol

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1191 on: December 12, 2017, 10:22:03 AM »
Talk about painting a fucking one-dimensional picture...

Technically, I think it was a two dimensional picture.  Two camps, with competing interests, bound together to form a somewhat paradoxical ruling party.  But a party that holds all of the power in this country right now, so at least it's effective.

Quote
keyboard sociologists and psychologists such as Sol

As a general rule, on this forum we try to constrain ourselves to attacking arguments instead of attacking people.  There's no need to be petty or personally insulting.  You may notice I will not call you any names in this post, and I would ask that you do the same in the future.  Also, consider editing your previous post before you get moderated for violating the forum rules.

Quote
“They’re too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests because they are all misogynic homophobes who care more about culturally defeating the ‘others’”.

I said nothing of the sort, but I recognize your faux outrage over what you heard, instead of what was said.  This is a common tactic on right wing talk radio, too, where discussions of registering mentally ill people who try to buy semi auto rifles with bump stocks immediately turned into "libtards are gunna take our guns!"  No, that's not the topic at hand, and your immediate overreaction into extreme interpretations does not help advance the discussion we need to have.  You're just stifling honest debate with such ridiculousness.

Quote
But its too fucking hard for people like Sol to imagine there are competent, rational people who vote libertarian or right-leaning for any other fucking reason than that they have been brainwashed and misled by billionaires into voting against their own interests. 

Did you even read what I wrote?

I said nothing about "every voter" and I said nothing about you.  I described the party's coalition of disparate interests.

It was a post about the lie behind trickle down economics, and why I think the party has so fully embraced that lie despite so many decades of evidence that it is indefensible.

Quote
corporate tax should be as low as feasible- since all of the money eventually falls into someone’s hands

This is the lie of trickle down economics.  Thank you for proving my point, I guess?

If the republicans actually wanted to help the middle class, they could have given the middle class a tax cut.  They chose not to.  It's not like it's a hard bill to write.  Reagan and Bush BOTH passed tax cuts that actually lowered taxes on the middle class, so I'm pretty sure they know how to do it.  This time they choose to write a bill that instead raises taxes on the middle class, to partially offset the debt created by their giant, permanent, tax cut for corporations and the wealthy.  Sure, they phased in the tax increases on the middle class slowly, to soften the blow, but they still raise taxes on the middle class. 

You don't need to believe in the trickle down fairy tale.  If you want to help the middle class, then actually help the middle class.  Don't help billionaires and claim it will then secondarily maybe help the middle class, even though that has never worked before.  It's silly.

Quote
The political conversation in this country  is not going to go anywhere until people stop painting with single-stroke brushes. 

Do you think your post is helping?  I see an awful lot of name calling, gross exaggeration, strawman arguments, and belittling of opposing viewpoints and the people who hold them.  I don't think you're exactly elevating the discourse.

Quote
If I called the Democratic party out

I would encourage you to offer your personal views on the democratic party, at length, maybe in a thread devoted to that topic.  I would discourage you from continuing to make antagonistic personal attacks on fellow forum members, by name.

I agree that the democratic party has it's own coalition and internal conflicts, but this isn't a thread about them, or about parties in general, or about the social divide in our country.  It's a thread about the republican tax plan, the economic lie it is based on, and how clearly it betrays the ideals the president campaigned on.  Democrats have no role in it.  Trump sold us down the river.

Quote
But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…

I didn't even swear!

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1192 on: December 12, 2017, 10:22:39 AM »
It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.
Fuck You.
You are incredibly silly.
In (right) before the lock...
Yes, let's please try and keep this mostly civil.

TexasRunner

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1193 on: December 12, 2017, 10:25:25 AM »
It's a testament to the success of those billionaires' strategy that their lackeys so vociferously assert their own agency.
Fuck You.
You are incredibly silly.
In (right) before the lock...
Yes, let's please try and keep this mostly civil.
Sorry.

simonsez

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1194 on: December 12, 2017, 10:26:34 AM »
Lower corporate taxes will make us more competitive with other countries. Our corporations will sell more creating jobs.     
Hard to chat when we have this disconnect.  I disagree with your point.  I think executives and shareholders (yay 401k, IRA, taxable accounts) will be better off but can't see how it will create any meaningful number of jobs besides a handful in R&D and that's a maybe. 

In terms of corporate profits, what country is outpacing us currently?

TexasRunner

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1195 on: December 12, 2017, 10:28:43 AM »
But apparently dude can tell half the forum Fuck You and not get banned so why not try it…

I didn't even swear!

I was specifically referencing dude.  Sorry that wasn't clear.  Should have linked the post.

The smart ultra rich ( Ray Dalio, Warren Buffet to name but a few) are keenly aware that unless income inequality is improved in this country you will eventually see a shrinking economy which does not bode well for those of us wishing to live off investments.

This tax plan increases income inequality by shuttling the savings disproportionately to the top.

That folks at the bottom are so easy to manipulate with notions of religion/guns/whatever the trend seems bound to continue.
For better and for worse, America is weird. I'll just keep on increasing my allocation of VEA as a hedge.

With the GOP assault on public education, from Betsy Devoss' Dept. of Education right down to the GOP tax plan -- removing the SALT deductions effectively means your local tax dollars that go to public schools are now going to be taxed federally -- the trend will not only continue, it will worsen. In case I haven't said it lately . . . oh nevermind.

[MOD NOTE:  F-bombs, sure.  F-U bombs toward other forum members are just going to escalate to the point where I have to lock the thread.]


TexasRunner

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1196 on: December 12, 2017, 10:34:56 AM »
No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

Costs were increased on the middle class (and upper class) via Obamacare . . . and they were increased in order to pay for poor people having health care.  You might not hate poor people . . . but it sounds like you're willing to let them go uninsured to save a few bucks from people who need the money less.  Is that correct, or a misreading of your position?

My position onObamacare is largely summed up based on the Family Glitch and Obama's blatant refusal to fix it.

And yes, It has been stated that I hate poor people for hating Obamacare, I would have to find the post.

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
I fall into the "Family Glitch" that Obama blatantly refused to fix even though he had the ability, so F#%$ ACA and Obamacare.  My premiums rose 382% across three years and I wasn't eligble for subsidies.  Burn ACA to the ground and lets build something completely from scratch (I know thats a pipe dream).  (FYI, My family and I are currently Cash Payments for medical without insurance.  I paid over 60,000$ in the last 5 years in insurance premiums but only used 28,000$ worth of benefits, including a (1) car wreck, (2) MRI of DW's lower back when we might have found a tumor, (3) couple of stomach X-rays (because kids, thats why), and (4) a broken collarbone.  Had I made cash payments, I would have been at least 25,000$ ahead.)

If you don't know about the family glitch, it really is something that you should understand if you support ACA:  https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/04/27/family-trapped-aca-glaring-family-glitch-life-gets-harder

Scortius

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1197 on: December 12, 2017, 10:47:10 AM »
I'm not concerned if the wealthy don't get a tax reduction, but I do want the corporations to get cuts.

Could you explain to me why tax cuts for corporations is a good idea again. No, really. Spell it out for me. Maybe I'm just completely missing something that's really obvious.

 
 Lower corporate taxes will make us more competitive with other countries. Our corporations will sell more creating jobs.

Why are we competing in a rush to the bottom with other countries? There's a reason VTSAX is a 'global' index and there is a reason why the world's most educated people fight to come to the US for jobs. Also, the effective corporate tax rate is already in line with other developed countries.

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Lower corporate taxes will lower the cost of goods which is equivalent to giving people a raise.

Good prices are driven by supply and demand, so yes a cheaper supply may drop certain prices, but only in competitive and price-elastic markets. That means cheaper luxury goods for people who have disposable income but likely not cheaper essentials for those living closer to the edge.

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Lower corporate taxes will help keep inflation in check even as the economy booms.

Except this will also balloon the deficit which could possibly lead to greater inflation.

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Lower corporate taxes will boost business investment, creating a larger tax base in the future.

It's been said many times before. Corporations are already sitting on record amounts of cash. This is just bogus.

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Lower corporate taxes will reduce shifting of profits overseas.

True, but the reason profits are being held overseas right now is that 1) corporations are already sitting on record amounts of cash already, and 2) this allows them to simply sit on the foreign profits patiently waiting for a repatriation event companies know the Republicans will eventually grant them. If they needed it they could always bring it back at current rates, which again shows that they don't need it at the moment.

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Lower corporate taxes will  decrease the tax avoidance that companies use thru legal loopholes

So just close the loopholes instead?

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Lower corporate taxes will decrease time and money spent avoiding taxes.

Why would this be true? Effort to minimize taxes is independent of the tax rate when you're taking about tax filings at the corporate level.

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Lower corporate taxes will help small companies compete with big companies that hire teams of lawyers to exploit loopholes to reduce their tax bill, small companies can't afford the lawyers needed.

No, closing loopholes will.

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Lower corporate taxes will increase employee wages.

No, corporations are sitting on record amounts of cash.  They could afford to give out higher salaries right now, yet they don't. Unskilled labor is over-supplied and is wage-inelastic.

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Lower corporate taxes will increase stockholder dividends

Oh yes, yes they will.

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Lower corporate taxes will increase foreign investment in the US

Possibly. Are our corporations hurting for foreign investments enough to justify such a squeeze on the middle class?  Seems like they're sitting on record amounts of cash, not investing it.

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  Am I positive all these will happen? There will be several that happen, some will take time to develop,
and many will add their small part to the economic competitiveness and economic growth we want.

          Thanks for asking.       

I just don't see how the supposed benefits outweigh the squeeze this puts on the lower and middle classes, not to mention the impending hit to the deficit/debt.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1198 on: December 12, 2017, 10:47:59 AM »
No one could think Obamacare is bullshit because to do so means you hate poor people…  Despite the fact that Obamacare increased the taxes on the lower middle class 50-fold (if you factor in insurance premiums as a ‘tax’ as it was defended in SCOTUS).

Costs were increased on the middle class (and upper class) via Obamacare . . . and they were increased in order to pay for poor people having health care.  You might not hate poor people . . . but it sounds like you're willing to let them go uninsured to save a few bucks from people who need the money less.  Is that correct, or a misreading of your position?

My position onObamacare is largely summed up based on the Family Glitch and Obama's blatant refusal to fix it.

And yes, It has been stated that I hate poor people for hating Obamacare, I would have to find the post.

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
I fall into the "Family Glitch" that Obama blatantly refused to fix even though he had the ability, so F#%$ ACA and Obamacare.  My premiums rose 382% across three years and I wasn't eligble for subsidies.  Burn ACA to the ground and lets build something completely from scratch (I know thats a pipe dream).  (FYI, My family and I are currently Cash Payments for medical without insurance.  I paid over 60,000$ in the last 5 years in insurance premiums but only used 28,000$ worth of benefits, including a (1) car wreck, (2) MRI of DW's lower back when we might have found a tumor, (3) couple of stomach X-rays (because kids, thats why), and (4) a broken collarbone.  Had I made cash payments, I would have been at least 25,000$ ahead.)

If you don't know about the family glitch, it really is something that you should understand if you support ACA:  https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/04/27/family-trapped-aca-glaring-family-glitch-life-gets-harder

I meant to return to this and forgot, thanks for bring it back up.

You lay the blame squarely on Obama, but I'm not clear on whether the fix was attainable through agency rule-making or if it required legislative action. Do you have a source that clarifies this?

wenchsenior

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Re: Republican Tax Plan 2017
« Reply #1199 on: December 12, 2017, 10:58:55 AM »
As someone who identifies as center-left and votes Dem 99% of the time only because the GOP has gone bug-shagging INSANE since GH Bush, I also want to state that THIS Dem voter does not actually subscribe to the over-simplification of "GOP voters are too stupid to understand they are voting against their own self-interest". 

Voters of all stripes define self-interest differently, and financial self-interest is only one element among many.  Voter self-interest includes tribal affiliation, family and social-circle harmony/approval, religious/other 'moral' convictions, civil liberties of value (which differ from person to person), short-term financial interest (tax cuts, competition from immigrants for jobs, protectionist policies that protect their job or industry, funding of entitlement or safety net programs that reduces their paycheck), long-term financial interest (deficit spending, funding of safety net and entitlements they are likely to need in the future, negative effects of protectionism on long term GDP growth and jobs, etc.), and any particular pet issues that they feel strongly about.

Any particular voter might prioritize ANY of these issues, and it would be in some way in their 'self-interest'. And most voters have some conflicts taking votes in their own self interest.

So it's totally reasonable to expect that some middle and lower income voters, who will most certainly need to rely on SS and Medicare at some point in the future, to nevertheless vote consistently for a party that wants to dismantle them as long as that party keeps fighting for 'bringing back jobs' (short term financial interest) or supporting gun rights, or restricting abortion, etc.  All that indicates is that those voters value gun rights or stopping abortion MORE at any given voting moment than their long-term financial concerns.

Likewise, as an upper-middle class voter,  it is consistent for me to vote for a party that (historically and rhetorically) believes in raising my taxes to fund the social safety net and health care for all.  I value those things MORE than my personal household's short-term financial gain, so I vote consistently against my short-term financial 'interest'.

Disclaimer 1: I think Sol's 100% accurate about how the GOP holds together its two largest constituencies. Those constituencies do not necessarily encompass all GOP voters.

Disclaimer 2: I am leaving out the inevitable  low-information or just plain stupid voters who really do not know their party's position on issues (which I remember reading somewhere is actually a fairly high percentage of people).




« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 11:02:23 AM by wenchsenior »