relationship / finance - am I wrong?

[Cryocash]

Wow this post saddens me... i forsee you losing the 9 months of payments and finding a new woman. Wish luck. 

I really don't think I'm paranoid when asking female  roommates to sign papers after 3 months.

[GreenSheep]

I'm sorry this is happening to you. I suspect it's probably hard to read all of our comments telling you how bad we feel for you, because we all have the benefit of hindsight. It's a lot harder to see this stuff when you're in the middle of it and emotions are involved. I hope things work out better for you than a lot of us think they will, but even if they don't, it's better to find out now than several more years down the road. There are lots of women out there who will appreciate your frugality and desire to make your (singular or plural, as the case may be) life financially secure.

[ysette9]

In the future, either with this lady or another, don't buy property or otherwise mingle your finances unless you are married. This provides a lot of protection that you don't currently rly have. Otherwise, keep everything separate and talk long and hard (and get in writing) any future agreements you come to. Best of luck and please keep us posted.

[Grosgrain]

This whole situation is really sad.  I agree with PPs that she is done.  She is trying to protect herself by refinancing the house.  In your shoes, I wouldn't want to be in this relationship any longer.  She has really disrespected you and taken advantage of your generosity - even if it wasn't with malicious intent.

A couple things jumped out at me, though, in terms of things you should not being doing in future relationships. 

(1) You paid the mortgage for 9 months without asking her for her share.  Um, why not?  Don't be a martyr.  By not holding her to the 50/50 agreement, you probably thought you were being a nice guy.  You were actually showing her that she could run over you.  It's one thing to pay for pizza and not expect her to pony up 50%, but a mortgage payment?  And why were you buying tires and paying for other things for a grown adult who makes 40% more than you?  Be generous with your time, with affection, with emotional support - and small gifts, too, from time-to-time.  But don't pay for basic things that an independent adult should be taking care of on her own. 

(2) Why did you agree to this whole house purchase/remodel in the first place?  $100k and months of your work and energy is a lot to invest in a relationship without any commitment.  Even if you don't want commitment, financially entangling yourself with someone to this degree is a bad idea.  IMHO, you should have lived together in one of your existing properties as a trial run before jumping into something as big as co-owning a home.  When my now-husband and I moved in together, we rented an apartment (my preference - even though he already owned a home) and split things 50/50.  We spent 2 years there - getting comfortable with living together, learning about each other's quirks and habits - before even considering a house purchase.

I know this is a tough time.  Please just consider how you can protect yourself in the future.  You seem to be an extremely generous person who maybe feels like being open and giving with your money is a way of showing love.  Don't change that generosity.  Just find ways to be generous without putting yourself in situations like this.

[Cromacster]

People have hinted that it's coming and danced around it, but in the words of Dan Savage "Dump the mother fucker already"....After you get your money of course.  This is probably already her end game as PP have said, but either way you're better off.

Granted I am making judgement from your side of the story and the details you have provided, but the way I see it she has shown questionable and irrational judgement when it comes to your relationship.  Her action's have shown that she does not respect you or your money.

So after she gets upset at me asking for the $100k payback, I'm completely upset and we argued back and forth.  She even called her friend to ask if she should pay me.

The fact that she had to ask her friend whether she should pay you or not is mind boggling.  Did she just magically think she could refinance in her name and not owe you anything?  And you're still getting the short end if your only getting your 100k back.
 

[mareofnight]

This isn't exactly the advice you asked for, but this situation looks like so many red flags to me.

I have a friend who's a really kind, caring guy, and doesn't like conflict. His former partner dragged their finances down really badly - he contributed much more to their finances than she did, and she considered that his responsibility, and habitually quit jobs whenever she felt like it regardless of how bad their debt was getting. There were also other, non financial problems. The first time they split up, she emptied their joint account and left, leaving him with their lease and all the bills. They tried to get back together and make it work a while later. She was physically abusive on at least two occasions near the end, which I know about because I was on the phone with him during both. It was scary.

And then there's my own ex. I made a lot more, but he promised to contribute something to expenses when he moved in. He took some time to find himself after being fired for getting physically I'll from stress, which I was ok with. He gave up on his side gig (I don't know how successful it ever was) to learn something new, which he never got very good at, but was really insecure about criticism. Conversations about him getting another day job always became uncomfortable and ended quickly, because I didn't want him to feel unappreciated or that I only cared about money, maintaining the status quo of me paying for everything. He never paid for anything but our Netflix, which I wouldn't have bought on my own anyway. My family thought that was a big problem; I thought they were being materialistic. He cooked all our food, and cleaned enough that I usually didn't have to, and he had much less earning potential than I did, anyway.

After living together for over 1.5 years, I realized he had a bad temper, and as someone who easily feels guilty, I shouldn't be dating an easily angry person. So I broke up with him. He was extremely manipulative during the breakup. It also came out that he'd been mean to my friend behind my back to isolate me, stolen a gift from another good friend  (my future fiance), and been incredibly manipulative all through out relationship in ways I hadn't realized until it was over. When I finally got him to leave the house (I was staying elsewhere at the time), he pepper sprayed the matress I'd bought for him, which I didn't realize til I tried sleeping there myself a month later.

My point is that paying yourself for everything or most things, while your partner could easily contribute more but chooses not to, is a sign they don't care about your well-being and success all that much. It doesn't always end with poisoning like it did for my friend and I; we were really unlucky. But I can't help getting the sense this lady didn't care about you that much even when your relationship was more secure. Leaving you paying for everything because paying bills is difficult/boring/unpleasant seems really uncaring. Did she ever offer a way to pay her half, or ask you to suguest one? We're there ever conversations about her contributing that got awkward so you just let it go, or she changed the subject, or made you feel bad for bringing it up?

Just, take care of yourself. Really think about your relationship. Ask your friends what they think of her. Be careful.

[snogirl]

Hindsight is 20/20, but what struck me is that you agreed to split expenses 50/50 but then you paid for everything and never asked her for money.  Did you actually discuss HOW you would split expenses?  Like, you'd pay the mortgage but she'd pay the taxes, utilities, groceries, etc. and it would work out to about 50/50.  Or you'd pay for everything and she'd cut you a check?  Or you'd each contribute a certain amount to a joint account and then you'd do the actual work of paying bills out of that account?  It seems like you  missed an important step in hammering that out.

If you do decide to keep living together it might be good for you guys to sit down and write out a cohabitation agreement.  My boyfriend and I did that before we moved in together.  He owns the house so there are certain protections for me - like he can't just kick me out on the spot - I have something like 60 days to vacate if we were to break up.  Even more than the legal protections, it was just a good exercise to go through how we thought financial things should be handled.  Like, who pays for repairs to the house?  Who pays what bills?  I came in to the relationship with a cat and he had two dogs - was their vet care going to be considered a household expense or were we going to keep it individual?  What about our cars?  That kind of stuff.  If there are fundamental incompatible differences between you two, they might be revealed here.

This point stood out for me as well. If you didn't ask for a penny for bills, mortgage, vacation that is on you. That may sound harsh but it's reality & I've lived it myself. What I mean is my last two serious relationships, I over compensated on finances, doing more than my fair share & it backfired. I had to own my choices, my part. It didn't come easy and I was angry at first, and upset, but in the end I learned a valuable lesson. Also it doesn't sound like your partner cares what you think about her financial know how and is making her own bed now leaving you confused and on an emotional rollercoaster by the sounds of your post.
Also I agree, I would rethink staying for 9 months to make things even. Maybe couples counseling?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[fishnfool]

Op, start putting your paper trail together in case this turns against you. Surely you have documents showing your $100k you put into the house plus payments you made to the mortgage.  The things you did to help her sell her house were purely out of the goodness of your heart. Hopefully she'll remember that and keep her word on paying you back the money you put into this joint property.

[Iplawyer]

First - you really, really, really need to talk to a lawyer in your area before you go out of town.  This entire situation reeks of a your ex-girlfriend (and ex is right here - it is over) ripping you off. Since you are going to be gone you will not know what is going on.  Please, please, please go see a lawyer.  Don't leave town this way and definitely don't leave town without that check being locked up and secure outside of the house. 

I'm sorry - but if there is a next time  - don't do thing this way. 

[Candace]

You seem like a nice guy. It seems that your primary concerns are with her feelings and her sense of well-being.

We are kind of piling on you here. The folks on this forum tend to be very analytical and interested in what we see as fairness, sometimes to the detriment of compassion. In the process, sometimes we can probably make someone feel more badly than they need to. So I'll just say, I would ask that you try and put your own self-interest and your own self-respect at least on a par with how you think your actions make your girlfriend feel. We are only seeing one side of the story here, but it looks to me like she is taking advantage of you.

For this relationship, if it lasts, and definitely for the future, please know that in the usual relationship dynamic, a relationship normally cannot last if your partner loses respect for you. If she sees your role as subordinate to hers, she will likely walk all over you until she leaves you.

YOU deserve to be in relationship where your legitimate need for respect is equal to your consideration of her wants and desires.

I hope you continue to update this thread and let us know how things are going. Even when we are harsh, I believe every person who replies wants the best for you.

[Last Night]

I know this might not be the kind of advice you were asking for and I'm glad you found a way to deal with the financial side of things, but I would seriously be questioning my relationship at this point. Given that you were serious enough to buy place together I am assuming you are either married, engaged or that the intent was for this to be a serious relationship.

However things like her showing no concern on having to help monthly with the mortgage and suddenly changing her mind and wanting to separate your financials to such an extent that she is willing to take the hit on refinancing cost and a significantly worse rate on the mortgage does not show she is considering the two of you as a single unit and also does not have significant faith in your relationship. Also the fact that she wanted the home you both live in looks to me like preparing to be able to kick you out if the relationship does not start moving in the direction she wants.

I really hope I am wrong about this, but I would seriously be looking to protect myself in case things do go this way.

Not saying she is malicious or anything, but that it certainly sounds like she is looking to protect herself in case things go belly up.

I completely agree.  We were going to get engaged, but this will kill any plans for that.  She sees it "her vs me", where I see it as "us".   We apparently have different priorities...I put "us" above each individual, didn't mind paying for things when it was going to be "us" in the long run.  She made into "her vs me" so long term this is no good.

At least this allows us to separate our financials and easily move on if we need to.   

It's a pity this argument really soured things between us.  I put myself at risk to sign away the house...and then get smacked for asking to be compensated.  I'm glad she saw the light, but she is definitely not happy about what happened.

As an aside if she is getting a house that has had renovations done that significantly raise the equity and you only get back your 100k + 5k for the time you worked on renovating, but the house has gained over 5k combining market improvements and renovations you are kind of getting shorted there.

I completely agree I am getting shorted here.  She had no idea how hard it was to do all of the research, interview contractors, get bids, manage the project, and get everything done to her satisfaction.  There were days where I spent 8an-5pm on the phone make 30 calls to various contractors / businesses to get things ordered / done.  I took time off to do this.  The $5k is a token amount for my sweat and time.  It really took a toll on me as I gave up many other things to get the house renovated properly, planning the move, and helping to repair / stage her house to sell.  Literally 9 months of hell.

In terms getting paid for the property appreciation...I didn't even want to broach that with her.  She would be furious that I was "making money" off of her.  I know how she would think.  It's not even worth it at this point to pursue that.  The money is not worth the grief that this would raise.   Such a pity.

I am sorry to say, but if you have to walk on eggshells about all of these things that you've brought up which are absolutely legitimate discussions between two rational adults you are in for a nightmare (it almost seems like yours is only starting).

Play nice for now since you have put yourself in position of weakness like someone else said, try to get the money situation resolved without any blow ups and revaluate if this person is worth being with.

[paddedhat]

Many of the guys on this forum, myself included, fall very much in to the analytical/technical/numbers aspects of working towards financial independence etc, which is easy to convey to someone like that, but can seem very cold and uncaring to someone who doesn't think that way.

This is extremely important. I've been married for 32 years. My wife came from a family that, like the majority of our relatives, had no chance of even conceptualizing becoming independently wealthy on a middle class income. It has literally been the last few years, that she is comfortable with, and supports decisions like having seven figures in Vangard while forgoing all the silly shit that her peers have (new cars, vacation homes, etc) and realizing that she also needs to understand concepts like lost opportunity costs, depreciation, and other financial principals that directly impact our ability to goof off and enjoy life, while our peers work for another decade or two.  As a guy, it's easy to think, WTF? How can she possibly not agree with, me, I'm right! FFS.  But, as you grow older, one thing becomes pretty clear, being right isn't a win, and having a partner that goes with the flow of uberconsumerism that is the engine that drives our economy and culture, makes you the odd duck, not her, when viewed by the majority. Good luck, hopefully things will smooth out in a few weeks.

[With This Herring]

Amount she owes you:
$100K downpayment
1/2 of mortgage payments made to date [This is her debt to you, as you paying her half was effectively a loan]
Of the other 1/2 of the mortgage payments, all of the principle
Value of time you put into the house beyond what she put in
1/2 the appreciation of the house
And, should you choose to argue it, value of time you put into her previous property

Please explain this part.  Why is he owed all of that principal?

(Oh my gosh, I misspelled principal!  Ugh.)

He is owed all of it because she is buying out his entire ownership (plus reimbursing him for the loan of 1/2 of the P+I payments that were her share).  He was an owner for a while, which is why the 1/2 of the interest expense remains his to cover for that time, but his equity is comprised of the downpayment he made and the 1/2 of the principal payments, etc.

So, in the below example (with some made-up numbers), she would owe him for $114,510 of his equity plus $20,990 for all her costs which he paid.  (Obviously house appreciation should be added in as well, but I ran out of column space...)

	…	His Equity	His Expense	His Effort “Income”	His Cash	His Receivable	…	Her Equity	Her Expense	Her Effort “Income”	Her Cash	Her Payable	…	ZERO CHECK
Downpayment	…	$100,000.00	$.00	$.00	-$100,000.00	$.00	…	$100,000.00	$.00	$.00	-$100,000.00	$.00	…	$.00
Mortgage principal	…	$4,500.00	$.00	$.00	-$9,000.00	$4,500.00	…	$4,500.00	$.00	$.00	$.00	-$4,500.00	…	$.00
Mortgage interest	…	$.00	$6,500.00	$.00	-$13,000.00	$6,500.00	…	$.00	$6,500.00	$.00	$.00	-$6,500.00	…	$.00
His labor	…	$10,000.00	$.00	-$20,000.00	$.00	$10,000.00	…	$10,000.00	$.00	$.00	$.00	-$10,000.00	…	$.00
Her labor	…	$10.00	$.00	$.00	$.00	-$10.00	…	$10.00	$.00	-$20.00	$.00	$10.00	…	$.00
	…	__________	__________	__________	__________	__________	…	__________	__________	__________	__________	__________	…	__________
TOTAL	…	$114,510.00	$6,500.00	-$20,000.00	-$122,000.00	$20,990.00	…	$114,510.00	$6,500.00	-$20.00	-$100,000.00	-$20,990.00	…	$.00

[SuperMex]

Step one be the sweetest kindest most loving man on the planet.

Step two make up what ever crazy story about a great deal that came available or the stock market is going to surge etc. Drop the check to make sure it won't bounce.

As soon as that money is in your hand start pumping her for more money or an agreement to pay for the next 9 months mortgage etc. When you have pumped her for all she is going to give you then tell her you want to date other people and start asking her friends out etc. Real jerk crap... 

When she flips her lid hope she touches you and call the police on her.

If she won't put hands on you tell her you don't feel comfortable with her explosive behavior etc and if she will pay you for a moving company you will leave without a fight.

If she doesn't kick back and relax all the bills are on her and she has to legally evict you. 


Yes all this is morally wrong but so is most of the crap she has already done to you. She thinks you are a chump and has treated you like one.

[ysette9]

When others go low, I still think the best thing is to take the high road. You need to be able to live with yourself and your actions at the end of the day. Do protect your interests though.

[Retire-Canada]

When others go low, I still think the best thing is to take the high road. You need to be able to live with yourself and your actions at the end of the day. Do protect your interests though.

Yes. Being a douchebag is its own reward.

[Iplawyer]

I'm just worried she is going to have the locks changed while he is gone.  He needs to go into full protection mode here.  And he especially needs to change all of his passwords on all accounts and take his computer with him or leave it someplace safe that she cannot get to.  There are so many more steps.  A lawyer in his jurisdiction would be the most helpful.

[Just Joe]

Yeah, that computer needs to go "in for service" during your trip. Better yet, get it out of the house and don't go on the trip until this is all resolved for good and you have money in hand.

Change all your passwords starting with email account(s). Then financial passwords. Then I might go around to some websites like Mint and see if there is an account there in your name reporting on your accounts.

I wonder if she is far more savvy than you expect - I'd even suggest do a very comprehensive security sweep of your computer with multiple programs. What you are looking for is a keylogger program. Unlikely anyone would do this but it is easy to install a keylogger program that records every keystroke so even if you change your passwords, you are still telling the other person everything in plain text.  Malware-Bytes, RogueKiller, JRT and ADWCleaner are several I recommend. All free.

Hey I went down a similar path with much, much smaller liabilities once decades ago. Took a female roomie (no romance). We signed a lease for six months. Everything was great until the lease was signed. Within days she turned into something from a horror movie (spin around head and everything). And I quickly moved out b/c I literally feared for my safety.

I could not get released from the lease. And on my piddly income of the time I could not afford that but I did - paying double rent. I remain convinced she got exactly what she wanted. She asked for my keys and everything b/c "she didn't feel safe" suddenly. Note I never raised my voice or my hand. I was a gentleman the whole time. Boy was I naive.

Your fiance doesn't like money but I suspect she could be an expert. That friend she called to ask if she owed you money was either fictional, a lawyer or a friend that knows what she is setting you up for. My nickel's worth here.

If she is a good person - then she ought to agree to balance the books with you immediately and share the burden. If she isn't a good person then read and re-read everything that Erica and others have written here.

Bad, bad things have happened to people for less than $100K. Be careful.

[purple monkey]

This really is unfortunate.
I agree with most posters about getting legal advice.
I tend to think that you have been taken advantage of in a large way.
Hope you get better partners in the future.

[Reynold]

If it is any comfort, OP, I've seen worse.  A work colleague lived with a woman for 6 years, spent ~$200k on renovations and an addition on her house.  She then got mad at him and kicked him out (justifiable, there was cheating involved) and he made the mistake of sending a threatening text, she got a restraining order, and he ended up with nothing, in addition to paying for both his and her lawyer for the restraining order stuff.  He never got put on the title, got any written agreement with her or anything, and he is starting over financially. 

I suspect in your case the woman is not deliberately and with malice setting out to screw you over, she just sounds (1) more anal than you, and (2) less thoughtful about money.  In which case, setting things up that give her more control, at the expense of money, would be completely in character.  On the other hand, since she doesn't think about money, when you brought that up as a "big factor" in your relationship, she would be baffled and hurt.  How could you think money is more important than The Relationship, clearly she doesn't or she would have, I don't know, offered to pay something towards the mortgage in the last 9 months? :) 

So I don't think she set out to dump you, but she appears to be in the process of cutting ties, even if unconsciously, so definitely protect yourself to the extent possible.