Redditor asks for a MMM/Ramit blog for non-high income earners...

[Mattzlaff]

I'm willing to lean toward the idea that most active MMM posters/readers are in the bracket of "higher than average earners with sort of frugal tendencies".

I know even before I started reading the blog and even into me posting occasionally on the forum that I fall into that group but I try, not every day, but I try to get away from it. That's the point of this forum and the blog I think, it's motivation to me to read what people post here and see how to incorporate that into what I do.

[ender]

I don't they're clueless just less willing to make cuts on things lower income people see as luxuries. If I had a nickel (invested in Vanguard ;-)) for every person who has said "I could never do that" when I explained how to have a nice life at lower cost I'd be rich. Everything from how you can live (get a studio apt even if a couple, rent a room or two out in your house, don't buy a new car every three years or even every ten years, don't take $10k vacation, etc.. The response from higher income earners I know is always the same - "that's fine for you but I could never do that." So its not being clueless its just not wanting to live sooooooo far below their higher income means for a few years and invest the savings. Its not like its forever but its hard for them to see that. Of course I get the same response from many lower income people too.

There are just a ton more low hanging fruit if you make more.

Being able to go "I guess I can stop buying $50k SUVs" or "maybe we don't need to spend $2k a month on <random stuff you don't know about>" is a lot easier to identify when you have a higher income.

Now, that doesn't mean people will be receptive to it, but it means that a lot of MMM stuff is more applicable to people with lots of fat to trim.  Not very many people making $30k a year are going to, for example, go out and buy a brand new electric car and get much benefit out of the tax incentives. Though I will say that MMM's post makes me want to buy an electric car HAHA.

[Paul der Krake]

There also just plain selection bias. Higher income earners are more likely to read blogs and look for personal finance information on the internet in their spare time, or have friends who do.

The poor have are notoriously hard to reach because they don't have the same sources of information, or just don't care. They don't open a tab to nytimes.com when work is slow. They never wonder what they should be doing with that extra $500 in their checking account at the end of the month. They are completely unaware of concepts like "tax-advantaged accounts" or "portfolio".

Back in the fall of 2013 there was some polling done to try and gauge the interest of the target demographics for the ACA before its launch a couple months later. This was after months and months of nonstop media coverage, yet 50% of the people the law was designed to help the most didn't have the slightest idea what the law was about, and only a fraction could explain it well.

MMM doesn't advertise his blog. He gets links from other personal finance bloggers and like-minded communities. No wonder the message doesn't reach those who need it the most.

[SisterX]

I was a lower income earning single (divorced) person who FIREd at 42 with a decent sized NW and think MMMs message us of equal.value to low income people as it is to high income earners. Maybe of greater value to low income earners because of the stoic message. But I do agree the tone of the forums have changed the last couple of years towards a "softer" stance. I miss the good old face punching days.

Engineering solution: a browser extension that inserts some profanity and "sarcasm quotes" here and there.

You should reconsider buying that 4WD lexus. I understand caring for the safety of your loved ones, but maybe give a thought to the broader impact of your actions on the environment and others.

turns into

Look chicken shit, you should reconsider buying that 4WD lexus. I understand caring for the "safety" of your "loved ones", but maybe give a fucking thought to the broader impact of your actions on the fucking environment and others. Sucka!

I'm just going to copy Sister X above and insert it in.to.every comment to a post I make about anything: "WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE THOSE UNNECESSARILY GIANT-ASS VEHICLES FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY?!" ;-)

I also.think there needs to be a definition of "lower income". I would consider anyone (or a couple) making over $100k to be high income and anyone under $30k to be lower income with middle being in between.

Haha, make real face-punching great again!

[Milizard]

I've always been frugal, and interested in saving/investing.  I've never made too much.  I think I was making around $35000/yr when I first heard of MMM.  My DH was making about $30k.  We were already in our mid-upper 30's at that point.  To read about a couple who retired so quickly--and how--at least partly (mostly?) by each making $70k+ nearly immediately upon graduation is disheartening.  I guess we screwed up right out of the gate.  So, what now?   It is even more frustrating now as our combined income is < $50k (with me saying home to care for elderly mother).  A blog for people rocking it with lower incomes would be nice to read/less frustrating.  I got the frugality part of it down, though I could do more I'm sure.  If you really are lower income, you probably do too--because you have to. There's still saving/investing we could do.  And, of course, moving to better areas once family obligations are fulfilled to conclusion.  The frustrating part is I can't right now, so tell me what I can do under the current circumstances!

I'm not blaming MMM for focusing his blog---just saying it would be nice to read about others who do it and aren't software engineers.

[Ynari]

But if you need to find a blogger who perfectly mirrors your life in order to succeed, you're going to have a hard time.

I'm probably going off on a tangent here, but it really annoys me that people want to know MMM's opinion on minutia when the point, IMO, is the math and anti-consumerism mindset. (Questions like "What's MMM's stance on X?" bug me. I just think "WHO CARES???? It's the math/logic/argument that matters; he's not some religious figurehead!") I guess I shouldn't be surprised - MMM has become a bit of an internet celebrity, and people love to imitate the lifestyles of the famous - but it feels so counter to the MMM message to try to emulate him regardless of your own context and values.

[ender]

I've always been frugal, and interested in saving/investing.  I've never made too much.  I think I was making around $35000/yr when I first heard of MMM.  My DH was making about $30k.  We were already in our mid-upper 30's at that point.  To read about a couple who retired so quickly--and how--at least partly (mostly?) by each making $70k+ nearly immediately upon graduation is disheartening.  I guess we screwed up right out of the gate.  So, what now?   It is even more frustrating now as our combined income is < $50k (with me saying home to care for elderly mother).  A blog for people rocking it with lower incomes would be nice to read/less frustrating.  I got the frugality part of it down, though I could do more I'm sure.  If you really are lower income, you probably do too--because you have to. There's still saving/investing we could do.  And, of course, moving to better areas once family obligations are fulfilled to conclusion.  The frustrating part is I can't right now, so tell me what I can do under the current circumstances!

I'm not blaming MMM for focusing his blog---just saying it would be nice to read about others who do it and aren't software engineers.

I'm not sure how much lower than $50k your income is, but median household income in the USA is around $51k - this means prior to your drop in income you were comfortably over median income and after are potentially barely under it.

[Metric Mouse]

But if you need to find a blogger who perfectly mirrors your life in order to succeed, you're going to have a hard time.

I'm probably going off on a tangent here, but it really annoys me that people want to know MMM's opinion on minutia when the point, IMO, is the math and anti-consumerism mindset. (Questions like "What's MMM's stance on X?" bug me. I just think "WHO CARES???? It's the math/logic/argument that matters; he's not some religious figurehead!") I guess I shouldn't be surprised - MMM has become a bit of an internet celebrity, and people love to imitate the lifestyles of the famous - but it feels so counter to the MMM message to try to emulate him regardless of your own context and values.

Right? I've never felt the need to measure my life against his - and I doubt he would approve of my lifestyle much anyway.

[brooklynguy]

I always thought it would be very useful to new forum/blog readers if MMM did a blog about "how I'd live on a lower income now if I was starting from scratch".

He did do something pretty close to this:  "If I Woke Up Broke".  He does assume that he and his wife would immediately start earning a relatively high combined income again (though he invites readers to substitute their own lower amount if desired), but it was still a useful thought exercise for how to go about starting from scratch (or, if not quite from scratch, at least from zero net worth).

[mm1970]

I'm willing to lean toward the idea that most active MMM posters/readers are in the bracket of "higher than average earners with sort of frugal tendencies".

I know even before I started reading the blog and even into me posting occasionally on the forum that I fall into that group but I try, not every day, but I try to get away from it. That's the point of this forum and the blog I think, it's motivation to me to read what people post here and see how to incorporate that into what I do.

Yes, and I wonder a bit about the history?
I found MMM from the Simple Living Network (which I found from an article in the paper version of the LA times back in the early 2000s).

So anyway, about this history thing...I'm one of those people who grew up poor, put myself through college.  Because of my personality and my upbringing, I've always been "on the frugal side" - meaning, when I was young and stupid - I wasn't in debt.  I didn't spend money that I didn't have.  With 2 exceptions: college loans and a car.  But even then, in college, I had a few scholarships (including ROTC) and jobs to pay for food and rent.  Just the jobs couldn't pay for 100% of food and rent.  And car: well, I got a reasonably priced used car.

I was already reasonably frugal, even when we weren't making much money.  And we just stuck to it. Married a guy in grad school on the 7 year plan. Didn't upgrade our life when he got a job (except for losing the cheap grad student housing).

So yeah, now we make the big bucks, but we haven't always.  I think there are a lot of people on here like that. So while I can't immediately empathize with someone making $30k, I can dust off  the cobwebs and roll back the years and ponder it.

[Milizard]

I've always been frugal, and interested in saving/investing.  I've never made too much.  I think I was making around $35000/yr when I first heard of MMM.  My DH was making about $30k.  We were already in our mid-upper 30's at that point.  To read about a couple who retired so quickly--and how--at least partly (mostly?) by each making $70k+ nearly immediately upon graduation is disheartening.  I guess we screwed up right out of the gate.  So, what now?   It is even more frustrating now as our combined income is < $50k (with me saying home to care for elderly mother).  A blog for people rocking it with lower incomes would be nice to read/less frustrating.  I got the frugality part of it down, though I could do more I'm sure.  If you really are lower income, you probably do too--because you have to. There's still saving/investing we could do.  And, of course, moving to better areas once family obligations are fulfilled to conclusion.  The frustrating part is I can't right now, so tell me what I can do under the current circumstances!

I'm not blaming MMM for focusing his blog---just saying it would be nice to read about others who do it and aren't software engineers.

I'm not sure how much lower than $50k your income is, but median household income in the USA is around $51k - this means prior to your drop in income you were comfortably over median income and after are potentially barely under it.

About the same as my engineer father made back in the 80's:  mid $40's.  But that is not my point.  What you say about the median household income is.  We are in the normal range.  The MMM's income levels are the outliers.  MMM has a lot of good information for people at all levels, but starting with those salaries is a huge turnoff before digging in and finding the gold in the blog.  Reading about a DINK couple making $150k in their 20's retiring early is akin to saying, "How do you make a million dollars?  Easy.  First start with a million dollars..."  Like I said, it's cool that he focuses his blog on people who were in his situation.  That is his prerogative.  I, personally, didn't feel like I could relate at all to him until an inheritance doubled my stash and I felt like I could ante up to this table here.  I think his blog is very well written, but it would still be easier to relate to people that make a more normal income.

[FIFoFum]

The missing piece I see is ignoring how much all of this Go Earn More! is premised on being in good health and able-bodied (and not caring for parents, spouses or children who may not be).

The things you can do to earn $50,000 without sinking tons of money into education are predominantly things that you need to be physically capable of doing.

Most of the I can earn all this money, why can't you - it's not JUST about having educational advantage, family advantage, etc. It's also about being able to move your body, move other things, and move about in the world in a way that simply isn't possible for some people.

The my family only spends this much presumes that your family has no special needs, that you have built in caretaking to help YOU, not that you are the caretaker for others.

I'm not saying that you can't make it work earning less or having a disability (or caretaking). A whole bunch of the posters here do. Just that the culture and tone acts like you are "less than" or weak if you aren't as privileged in health and body.

[shelivesthedream]

I also feel like some people are facepunched for not warning more money even if they haven't shown that much interest in doing so. As I said upthread, my husband and I don't earn that much money - but that's a choice we've made. Him for a really secure job that he loves, me for a low-pressure freelance career in the arts. Sometimes I wish I earned more money, but then I think about what I'd have to do for it and it doesn't seem worth it. There are several posts in the post-FIRE section where people regret working as hard as they did, wishing they had taken a slower/part-FIRE approach. Hard work is NOT the highest virtue - and people aiming to ER should know that! I'm content to earn less in exchange for free time and autonomy and doing a creative job. Getting many benefits of FIRE decades before I do! Like the story about the Mexican fisherman.

[Johnez]

^Good point. I love that story and googled to read it again. Might have some new blogs to peruse through soon. In my eyes, MMM is the ultimate Mexican fisherman.

[Cranky]

I think there are loads of blogs about being frugal and living well on a limited income, though without the emphasis on really early retirement. They tend, though, to be aimed more at SAHMs or at least at people with little kids.

I find MMM interesting for the "less materialism" aspect, which sometimes gets lost in the "big house/fancy car" aspect, but still. I'm not very interested in the "make a lot of money at a job you hate and then retire early" side of the discussion, but I am one for picking out what's useful to me and ignoring what isn't.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I see ERE as a site of extreme frugality and testing the limits of where it can go.  I see MMM as a test of self-control for an end purpose (which includes some notion of maximizing ones lifestyle while minimizing the cost of that lifestyle in hours lost to the work making the money).  No one who spends $100k year is ERE material, but if they make $400k/year they are MMM material.  There's obviously a lot of overlap as different levels of frugality can help achieve the savings rate required no matter the income level.

[FIRE Artist]

A proactive approach for one of those who want to see a blog tailored for their financial  situation is to write one!  If the audience is as big as some are leading on, it could be very profitable. 

The responses here are getting really complainy pants. 

[Milizard]

I suppose any legitimate concern could be dismissed as complainy pants.

[FIRE Artist]

I would argue that whining about a blog owner not writing from your particular perspective is not a "legitimate concern". I assume MMM doesn't write from a low-income perspective because he is not, and he doesn't write about being disabled, or raising a disabled child because he is not.  Why would anyone want him to write from a perspective that is not his own? 

If people want to read about these things, then blaze a trail and go out and write about them.  Don't want the hassle of running your own blog?  Then offer to guest post for someone who does. 

[ender]

I would argue that whining about a blog owner not writing from your particular perspective is not a "legitimate concern". I assume MMM doesn't write from a low-income perspective because he is not, and he doesn't write about being disabled, or raising a disabled child because he is not.  Why would anyone want him to write from a perspective that is not his own? 

If people want to read about these things, then blaze a trail and go out and write about them.  Don't want the hassle of running your own blog?  Then offer to guest post for someone who does.

You can disagree with something without being "complainy pants."

[FIRE Artist]

I would argue that whining about a blog owner not writing from your particular perspective is not a "legitimate concern". I assume MMM doesn't write from a low-income perspective because he is not, and he doesn't write about being disabled, or raising a disabled child because he is not.  Why would anyone want him to write from a perspective that is not his own? 

If people want to read about these things, then blaze a trail and go out and write about them.  Don't want the hassle of running your own blog?  Then offer to guest post for someone who does.

You can disagree with something without being "complainy pants."

I absolutely agree with that.

[TexasRunner]

This was in the r/personalfinance a few weeks ago and I found it interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/5gp7ei/is_there_a_financial_school_of_thought_along_the/

I've always felt like MMM has been geared towards higher paying professionals. And in some ways I think that is his target audience. But I find it interesting to see that a normal reader of reddit would see MMM as an upper-middle class type writer (which I do, too). It also makes me wonder, as MMM seems to wonder too whether or not this site has basically softened a lot.

Anecdotally it seems the majority of posters here make a considerable amount of money and basically get by with "sort of frugal" tendencies but given high incomes allow us all to save while still not really living in an ERE type of way.

Thoughts?

I started a blog for exactly this reason a couple years back. I eventually petered out because I don't enjoy writing, and I had too many other things to do. But I was equally frustrated that there was no-one with a "how-to" or a "look-at-me-I'm-doing-the-thing" for people like me (income level = ~$26k/yr) who intend to be FIRE by age 35.

I do perceive MMM's target audience to be the same as Dave Ramsey's-- rich-but-clueless (i.e., incomes over $40k and just wasting their money). I've also found MMM's blog to be a helpful resource, even though I'm not in his target market.

Link to the blog?

:)

[Zikoris]

ETA forum member Zikoris has a good blog which shows how you can live a mainstream life as a couple of lower income workers in.a HCOL city.

Hell yeah, Incoming Assets!

[Prairie Stash]

I'm not blaming MMM for focusing his blog---just saying it would be nice to read about others who do it and aren't software engineers.

Reading MMM is like reading a book from the public library. You're allowed to borrow more than one book, you can read multiple blogs.

MMM won't call you up at 3 AM for cheating on his blog. If you're caught holding hands with Jacob (ERE), we'll forgive you. I think Zikoris will keep quiet when she catches you her blog, I don't think her boyfriend knows I've checked out her wares.

Get out there and find your perfect match, we'll all be here for you when you return.

[APowers]

This was in the r/personalfinance a few weeks ago and I found it interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/5gp7ei/is_there_a_financial_school_of_thought_along_the/

I've always felt like MMM has been geared towards higher paying professionals. And in some ways I think that is his target audience. But I find it interesting to see that a normal reader of reddit would see MMM as an upper-middle class type writer (which I do, too). It also makes me wonder, as MMM seems to wonder too whether or not this site has basically softened a lot.

Anecdotally it seems the majority of posters here make a considerable amount of money and basically get by with "sort of frugal" tendencies but given high incomes allow us all to save while still not really living in an ERE type of way.

Thoughts?

I started a blog for exactly this reason a couple years back. I eventually petered out because I don't enjoy writing, and I had too many other things to do. But I was equally frustrated that there was no-one with a "how-to" or a "look-at-me-I'm-doing-the-thing" for people like me (income level = ~$26k/yr) who intend to be FIRE by age 35.

I do perceive MMM's target audience to be the same as Dave Ramsey's-- rich-but-clueless (i.e., incomes over $40k and just wasting their money). I've also found MMM's blog to be a helpful resource, even though I'm not in his target market.

Link to the blog?

:)

As I said, I've stopped writing for it, so it's not been updated for a long time now. But here you go: The Millionaire Fund.

[The Happy Philosopher]

This is an interesting discussion, and is actually quite complex. The principles that MMM writes about will apply to nearly anyone, but not everyone will be able to do what he has done. MMM is very smart, had a higher than average income, has a deep understanding of efficiency and delayed gratification, has a spouse that is in high alignment with his visions, has excellent health, etc.

If you are earning a below average salary and have other confounding factors you will not be able to replicate MMMs success, but what he teaches will still apply to you. Increase income, decrease spending, invest the difference. As evidenced by some of the replies above (and other threads) people are doing some pretty incredible things at low incomes and complicated situations just by applying the principles of the blog.

What we are really talking about is inspiration. MMM resonated with me because I could relate to him. Some people will not be able to relate as well, but there is a reason this blog is so popular and others like it are not. The good stuff rises to the top. There are other people writing about this stuff at all income levels, but for whatever reason people want to read MMM more. Jacob has written the template for extreme frugality and retirement on a very low income. Anyone wanting to retire on a low income needs to read all his posts. All the information is there. There are millions of frugality blogs that dive into the tactics of living on less.

Increase income. Decrease spending. Invest. That's it. Take what is useful from these blogs, discard what does not apply. I do think that complaining about the fact that his income was higher or he writes off blogging expenses is ridiculous. Throw that stuff out and the basic bones of what he teaches still applies.

I would also say that this is an opportunity for someone with a low income to start blogging about early retirement. Sounds like a business opportunity to me.

TL/DR: Read MMM and ERE. Understand the philosophy. Supplement with other tactical frugality blogs. Stop wishing there was a blogger that is more like you and have gratitude that guys like Pete give us this stuff for free.