Redditor asks for a MMM/Ramit blog for non-high income earners...

[ender]

This was in the r/personalfinance a few weeks ago and I found it interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/5gp7ei/is_there_a_financial_school_of_thought_along_the/

I've always felt like MMM has been geared towards higher paying professionals. And in some ways I think that is his target audience. But I find it interesting to see that a normal reader of reddit would see MMM as an upper-middle class type writer (which I do, too). It also makes me wonder, as MMM seems to wonder too whether or not this site has basically softened a lot.

Anecdotally it seems the majority of posters here make a considerable amount of money and basically get by with "sort of frugal" tendencies but given high incomes allow us all to save while still not really living in an ERE type of way.

Thoughts?

[RonMcCord]

It would be an interesting perspective to find a FIRE blogger with low to mid income.  I know while the site does cater more to the high-income earners, there have been some exceptions like arebelspy who made it investing in real estate and teacher salaries.  But I'm basically starting out and trying to move into a higher income so I can really put what I've learned here to use.

[MDM]

Interesting perspective.

Between the two, it seems MMM is geared toward younger and less affluent folks while Bogleheads is geared toward the older and more affluent.  But that still leaves the question of where each sits on the overall distribution.

[BlueHouse]

Anecdotally it seems the majority of posters here make a considerable amount of money and basically get by with "sort of frugal" tendencies but given high incomes allow us all to save while still not really living in an ERE type of way.

Thoughts?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately.  I do think about my spending and I do prioritize my purchases, but the truth is that I still spend a lot of money.  I think there are a lot of categories that I could easily banish if I didn't earn so much, so yeah...my income is allowing me to save despite not really doing much. 

[dreams_and_discoveries]

I'd agree that the MMM posters skew towards comfortable middle-class professionals.

However rather than old-school Type A achievers, it's more high performing alternative types, that are willing to make sacrifices that others may find really strange...

[trollwithamustache]

I'd agree that the MMM posters skew towards comfortable middle-class professionals.

However rather than old-school Type A achievers, it's more high performing alternative types, that are willing to make sacrifices that others may find really strange...

This whole MMM thing is very Alternative.

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year. Its pretty clear the more you make while holding your costs to his level the faster you get to FIRE. Since MMM has written a couple of posts on how to get to greater than 50k/yr jobs that looks like the Reedit poster's missing piece. 

But, this whole thing is pretty alternative. Its totally OK if this guys likes his job and is happy working at it for longer than another higher paying job which could lead to an earlier FIRE. A lot of the Reddit posts seems a bit like they like a mess of things about MMM and want to wine away the rest that they don't like instead of proposing a specific alternative method.

[ender]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

[Bicycle_B]

I'd agree that the MMM posters skew towards comfortable middle-class professionals.

However rather than old-school Type A achievers, it's more high performing alternative types, that are willing to make sacrifices that others may find really strange...

This whole MMM thing is very Alternative.

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year. Its pretty clear the more you make while holding your costs to his level the faster you get to FIRE. Since MMM has written a couple of posts on how to get to greater than 50k/yr jobs that looks like the Reedit poster's missing piece. 

But, this whole thing is pretty alternative. Its totally OK if this guys likes his job and is happy working at it for longer than another higher paying job which could lead to an earlier FIRE. A lot of the Reddit posts seems a bit like they like a mess of things about MMM and want to wine away the rest that they don't like instead of proposing a specific alternative method.

Great Reddit thread; liking the Leanfire thread too.  Full disclosure - my income is closer to the Redditors' than a lot of MMM posters, so I'm predisposed to like it.

I saw the Reddit OP's post and some of the Reddit comments a little differently from the bolded remark.  I agree with Ender that MMM's examples and the majority of MMM posters have incomes higher than the US average, often $75K to $100K and above.  The Reddit OP wanted a blog where the examples are mostly in a lower income bracket, such as 30K.  I think that's a legitimate difference.  Lots of the Reddit commentors basically didn't feel 50K or above was realistic for them.  I think there's room for a legitimate discussion of "Can I achieve FI on 30K? How would I get there?  Where are my peers on this quest, and can we form a tribe?" 

[FIRE Artist]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year. Its pretty clear the more you make while holding your costs to his level the faster you get to FIRE. Since MMM has written a couple of posts on how to get to greater than 50k/yr jobs that looks like the Reedit poster's missing piece. 

Yes, I remember that, and I remember him saying that his intended audience is those with professional salaries.  While there are great ideas which will work for those living on the lower side of middle class, or low income, they simply wouldn't have the cash flow necessary to save for early retirement without finding a way to earn more. 

I don't agree that the site has softened, I think that MMM simply is not posting enough to his blog so people are not getting a steady stream of reminders or injection of new ideas, case studies etc. 

[ender]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year. Its pretty clear the more you make while holding your costs to his level the faster you get to FIRE. Since MMM has written a couple of posts on how to get to greater than 50k/yr jobs that looks like the Reedit poster's missing piece. 

Yes, I remember that, and I remember him saying that his intended audience is those with professional salaries.  While there are great ideas which will work for those living on the lower side of middle class, or low income, they simply wouldn't have the cash flow necessary to save for early retirement without finding a way to earn more. 

I don't agree that the site has softened, I think that MMM simply is not posting enough to his blog so people are not getting a steady stream of reminders or injection of new ideas, case studies etc.

Also keep in mind his annual spending is without a mortgage (regardless of what the fuzzyness of that number is), not very many people who are low income in their early 30s end up in that situation.

[Dicey]

...I think that MMM simply is not posting enough to his blog so people are not getting a steady stream of reminders or injection of new ideas, case studies etc.

Thank Dog we have the Forum for that!

I have to disagree that high income is the only path to FIRE. I scratched and clawed my way past the $100k mark exactly once in my entire career. (Peek to the left to see that I also live in a super HCOLA.) I'd guess my average income was around $50k. I was frugal before MMM existed, but I had no road map for exactly how to retire early.

I liken it to a marathon. It takes planning, dedication and tenacity. It does not take a lot of money if one has enough of the other attributes. Money may make it easier, but it doesn't guarentee the victory or make it any sweeter.

Edited to fix auto-correct stupidity.

[FIRE Artist]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year. Its pretty clear the more you make while holding your costs to his level the faster you get to FIRE. Since MMM has written a couple of posts on how to get to greater than 50k/yr jobs that looks like the Reedit poster's missing piece. 

Yes, I remember that, and I remember him saying that his intended audience is those with professional salaries.  While there are great ideas which will work for those living on the lower side of middle class, or low income, they simply wouldn't have the cash flow necessary to save for early retirement without finding a way to earn more. 

I don't agree that the site has softened, I think that MMM simply is not posting enough to his blog so people are not getting a steady stream of reminders or injection of new ideas, case studies etc.

Also keep in mind his annual spending is without a mortgage (regardless of what the fuzzyness of that number is), not very many people who are low income in their early 30s end up in that situation.

yep.

I see nothing wrong with MMM keeping his focus on his target audience - professionals.  The person the OP is talking about has a perfectly valid concern, that MMM isn't for people like "Joe/Jane Average", but that doesn't mean MMM should feel obligated to fill that gap, and it doesn't invalidate his message. 

[erp]

I'd be tempted to say that Jacob at Early Retirement Extreme is the best example of early retirement planning without higher than average salaries. He's definitely much more extreme than most of the FI crowd, but the serious drive to reduce costs means that that blog tends towards approaches which could theoretically be explored on a lower than average salary. I'm far too soft for that kind of extremism myself, plus he's pretty opposed to index investing - but despite those factors I think that's likely the shortest (if not easiest) answer.

[Shor]

Yes, there are some parts of MMM that can be adopted to live a super lean lifestyle. How to view money, how to view savings, optimizing your life, living the person you want to be.

If you try to emulate his budget, and his lifestyle... well, you're going to be disappointed. This is the primary problem. People don't want to change their own life. They want to follow a template, a strict set of requirements that will lead them on to Success Path D. You see this in dieting, in exercise, and in money. They want something to click Follow.
All over the internet, you hear people chiming in with the common sense: "It's really going to depend on your life, and how you live, and what you can do."
Diets don't impact each person the same. Not everyone can bike to and from work every day. And some people have very strong (or perhaps, very stealthy!) buy-now triggers, that even a perfectly balanced budget plan falls apart to once emotions and personal life starts coming in to play.

This person says that MMM doesn't fit their exact income bracket, thus they throw out the entire mindset.
What they could have done is learn what the mindset is trying to teach:
figuring out what's important.
Understanding how to save, and making it a high priority.
See needless purchases as the expenses that they are, and kicking the weakling must-have desires to the curb.

You take all of those life lessons in to consideration, and you could craft a budget plan that is tailor made to work for you. You make money with what you're good at, spend it where you need on things that are important to you, and save for future-you. Identify the useless crap that weighs us down and cut it out of your life: junk food, spendy habits, flashy things.

A lower income merely has an additional barrier of: I don't have the luxury to spend my hard-earned dollars on so much useless crap, and just needs to cut out a bit more than usual, maybe look for a better living setup, learn where they're bleeding out money, etc.

I could go on, but I am literally repeating myself with different words at this point..

[ender]

I'd be tempted to say that Jacob at Early Retirement Extreme is the best example of early retirement planning without higher than average salaries. He's definitely much more extreme than most of the FI crowd, but the serious drive to reduce costs means that that blog tends towards approaches which could theoretically be explored on a lower than average salary. I'm far too soft for that kind of extremism myself, plus he's pretty opposed to index investing - but despite those factors I think that's likely the shortest (if not easiest) answer.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder what life would be like if I was more on the ERE mindset.

Definitely wouldn't have the house we do that's for sure... :/

[Lski'stash]

I'd be tempted to say that Jacob at Early Retirement Extreme is the best example of early retirement planning without higher than average salaries. He's definitely much more extreme than most of the FI crowd, but the serious drive to reduce costs means that that blog tends towards approaches which could theoretically be explored on a lower than average salary. I'm far too soft for that kind of extremism myself, plus he's pretty opposed to index investing - but despite those factors I think that's likely the shortest (if not easiest) answer.

I think the millionaireeducator site is a good example of a low income/working class ERE lifestyle. They have made so.e tough choices, including moving and uprooting a couple times to help grow their stash.

There's also arebelspy, of course, if he decides he wants to start a blog. I'd love to see that. :-)

[Johnez]

Really wish there was a sort of low key version of MMM, most of his posts in the blog I skip now. I ain't taking trips to Hawaii or South America any time soon, no new cars, don't have the cash for Betterment or 100k for charity. Anyone new to MMM has a huge trove of information to search through though, I would say enough to fill a book. Perhaps a FIRED reader with some time on their hands can pull together a collection of blog posts useful toward low-med income folk. I can think of several examples:

Bike!
Shockingly Simple Math
Index Funds
Republic Wireless
50 jobs to earn $50k or more
Any and all philosophical posts

[BTDretire]

There's also arebelspy,

Oh, it's not, are bel spi, it's, a rebel spy. LOL, read that 100 times, just now got it.
  go ahead, maybe I need a face punch.

[Paul der Krake]

Eh. My income has more than tripled since I joined this forum in 2012, and I sometimes feel like MMM's tenets are LESS relevant to me now.

I truly think MMM's advice transcends all income levels.

[minority_finance_mo]

For those of you wondering, there is a sub for a more "extreme" version of fire: reddit.com/r/leanfire. Learned about it from OP's post.

[human]

This whole site is definitely for hipster yuppies of a specific income. It's called Mr. Money Mustache for chrissssakes, how more bougie and lame can it get than that? People have cheesy photos of themselves or their dogs with fake mustaches to show they belong to this bourgeois boheme tribe.

Don't get me wrong I've learned a lot from this site but it's really meant for folks who can cut a few bills, sell a few cars, down size their homes and ride around on a bike to get a nice savings rate of 50% and stash 25-50k a year. It's not meant for folks who make 30k a year, have three kids two of them with asthma and another with a disability and take trains and subways for an hour to take care of your kids while you work at your 100k a year job or to serve coffe to those that acually buy it.

Edit to add I totally consider myself to be one of these bourgeois boheme poseurs.
I put away just under 40k this year and still managed a trip to New Zealand.

[Johnez]

The bottom line is someone needs to strike down the middle road as an example for the half of America that earns between $40-80k a year. ERE is....well it's in the name-extreme, not going to live in a van. MMM is cool, so cool in fact that he gets on with CEOs of companies....a bit out of reach for average American.  Someone with a kid, and expenses that are realistic (having to pay rent or mortgage for example). A lot of MMM's success can be replicated if one was starting out right after high school-go to school, get a good job, marry a smart woman also with job, DINK it for a while, save money like crazy-success! 25-30 year olds who stumbled in late and have a kid, a mortgage and payments are SOL. The major takeaway after reading every blog is the importance of a high income, despite claims of "it's the savings RATE!" which I lol at. Savings rate of 50% on 50k vs 100k income is hugely different.

[webguy]

This site preaches lowering expenses and increasing income. If everyone followed that advice then this wouldn't be a conversation. If you're not earning enough then work on increasing your income. It's not rocket science.

[h2ogal]

Why are you guys ruling out the capacity of making more money? 

The income side of the equation can be changed!  Even if you start behind the eight ball.

I know what I'm talking about.  I was a teenage mom (married at 18, baby at 19).  I started my career with a HS education.  My income was below poverty level for several years.  We clawed our way up.  I went to college full time, while also working full time and with 2 little babies at home.   I purposely took a tech degree, not because I loved it, but because it paid better than traditional female jobs.   My BS and MBA were paid for by my employers and the US government.  There were many times I did part time work after leaving my full time job.  There were times I worked as a janitor, and as a cocktail waitress after leaving my tech job for the day.

I jumped at any job offers that meant a pay raise.  My last year at work my salary + bonus was over $150k.  I never would have believed it possible if you told me this when I was making $30k per year.   

In the mean time DH grew his small business from nothing to $800K in revenue per year. 

And we did this in upstate NY...land of high taxes and lots of regulations and costs.

We were actually better on the boosting income side than we were on the cost cutting side of things.   If I was actually frugal all these years we would have much more in savings right now than we do.   

[Metric Mouse]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

MustacheMath!!

[shelivesthedream]

My husband and I have a fairly low income. We're not poor, but we are below average. We have no particular plans to change this any time soon.

When I first read MMM, I was hugely excited. All these wonderful ideas really opened my eyes to how much control I had over my own life and finances. It was great! Then I went through a period of disenchantment. Looking at all these dollar numbers felt intensely depressing. I don't even earn £30k - how can I save that much a year?! (Compounded by the exchange rate, which I failed to process.) Just sell your second car? We don't even have one! But then I came out the other side and have rediscovered the inspiration and empowerment.

The dollar numbers still freak me out - both on the blog and in the forum. And, to be frank, I've stopped ever reading case studies because I find them and th advice given incredibly alienating. Particularly the way people are often facepunched for not earning "enough". But anything that doesn't involve dollar amounts is still true! The savings rate percentages, the philosophy about your little green soldiers, anything mentioning insourcing and stoicism... I find MMM's blog posts these days aren't that relevant to me personally but that doesn't mean that golden oldies aren't as true as they ever were.

The advice on almost every decent PF blog is the same. Work out what's important to you, cut unnecessary spending, invest the savings, wait. It's the tone that makes them different. MMM has acknowledged that his tone is slightly aggressive and his audience is middle-class spendypants. Doesn't mean the principles don't work for everyone. Might mean you can't EARLY early retire if you don't earn as much or if life gets in the way, but a stable old age having retired at 55 sounds awesome.

I guess I'm trying to say that I feel the Reddit poster's pain, but that it is true that the basic ER formula works for everyone if you set appropriate goalposts and don't let the dollar amounts get in the way.

[human]

I had forgotten the common refrain here. Just make more money like I do anyone can! I john galted myself to a gagillion bucks a year so can they!

I personally went from 14k to 100k, it can be done but I have a lot going for me that many don't.

I make more than 93% of Canadians so I always scratch my head when people say "just make more money!" How exactly does the entire population just start making more money all at once? Does everyone take a number and wait their turn or what???

[11ducks]

There's also arebelspy,

Oh, it's not, are bel spi, it's, a rebel spy. LOL, read that 100 times, just now got it.
  go ahead, maybe I need a face punch.

For about my first year on here, I read it as a girls name- like Arabelle Spy. Pictured her(him!) as like a cool, money saving secret agent. Like a financial Carmen Sandiego.

[Rural]

We're just under the median household income. It still works, but in fact what we needed was the investment piece which is too often ignored by venues focused on lower earners.


Shelivesthedream, I don't read case studies anymore either. Interesting. I hadn't pinned my loss of interest on the numbers, but it could be.

[TheMoneyWizard]

I'd agree with the previous poster who said Jacob at ERE is MMM on a lesser income. He lives on about $7K per year. At that rate, even a minimum wage worker could early retire. If he's too extreme, then focus on upping your income.

Can't make more? Financial Samurai recently posted about an immigrant janitor who worked so much he made $271,000 last a year. A janitor! Money is everywhere if you're willing to work for it. Lots of excuse-itis in this thread and the reddit thread.

There's three paths to early retirement - either spend less, earn more, or both. If you're making less, you'll have to be more extreme. There's no way around it. A blog about about making low wages, living a high spender's lifestyle, and retiring 30 years early doesn't exist because that's impossible.

What is possible though, is finding creative ways to cut your spending, make more money, and invest, of which there are plenty of blogs.

[Zikoris]

When I first started getting into the whole FIRE thing, I worked in a warehouse shipping boxes for around $12/hr, and my boyfriend was a part-time grocery store cashier for minimum wage. I still found the majority of MMM posts relevant, and just skipped over the ones that weren't - basically cars, kids, or very US-specific financial topics. Personally, I lean more towards ERE-style living. But if you need to find a blogger who perfectly mirrors your life in order to succeed, you're going to have a hard time.

[stasherus-maximus]

I had forgotten the common refrain here. Just make more money like I do anyone can! I john galted myself to a gagillion bucks a year so can they!

I personally went from 14k to 100k, it can be done but I have a lot going for me that many don't.

I make more than 93% of Canadians so I always scratch my head when people say "just make more money!" How exactly does the entire population just start making more money all at once? Does everyone take a number and wait their turn or what???

Yeah, I think this is the part most of the condescending super-beings forget - "I have a lot going for me that many don't."


But also this:

But if you need to find a blogger who perfectly mirrors your life in order to succeed, you're going to have a hard time.

How about instead of the myopic uber-achievers encouraging everyone to just rock out and be millionaires like them, we all just glean relevant bits of info and philosophy and apply it to our individual situations. Sheesh.

[Huskie87]

It's not meant for folks who make 30k a year, have three kids two of them with asthma and another with a disability and take trains and subways for an hour to take care of your kids

I mean...  if I was this hypothetical person and read MMM on my long commute home, I'd probably have learned a few things.  I probably would learned how expensive my commute is, both from an additional $ perspective and time perspective.  So I might have started looking for a job closer to home and might have realized the importance of using that additional time to earn more money through a side gig or went back to school to up my future prospects.  I also probably would have made sure I understood my taxes and optimized as best I could.  I probably would have made sure I was maximizing my government subsidized healthcare plan so I could refill those inhalers using pretax dollars through my HSA...  so yeah, idk, wouldn't have learned nothing.

The whole, 'get excited about $10 again' article can apply to just about anyone imo.  Those articles like giving $100,000 to charity or whatever wouldn't apply, so you're definitely right in that regard.

[TomTX]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

No mortgage, area with cheap property tax, no insurance, very efficient house.... yeah.

[Tyson]

I had forgotten the common refrain here. Just make more money like I do anyone can! I john galted myself to a gagillion bucks a year so can they!

I personally went from 14k to 100k, it can be done but I have a lot going for me that many don't.

I make more than 93% of Canadians so I always scratch my head when people say "just make more money!" How exactly does the entire population just start making more money all at once? Does everyone take a number and wait their turn or what???

I don't think that it is possible at a population level.  Basic human nature works against that.  But on an individual level it certainly is possible.  When you read stories of individuals 'making it' to a higher income, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that people often worked at it for years and years.  A constant struggle for upward mobility will pay off, sooner or later.  The stories are also useful because people make mistakes and you can learn from their miss-steps so you don't lose time. 

But at the population level, that kind of focused effort and intelligent strategy is not going to happen.  Which is why I think we should make minimum wage $15 and let people in that income bracket have a better life than they can manage now with the current minimum wage. 

Some individuals also might say "well I don't want to spend the effort needed to make more money, it's not my values and a waste of my time and doesn't fit my values", which is a perfectly valid response.  If you feel that way, you won't become a high earner.  Most people that make good $$ have worked very hard to get there, and over a long period of time. 

Not saying that average or low earners don't work hard.  Very often they do.  Maybe they just picked a bad profession or didn't have help early on with their education and career.  So start now.  Figure out what is needed to make $$ and pursue it.  Start from where you are.  Yes, life will suck extra hard for a while and you'll have to work harder than anyone else around you.  But it is possible.  And people here on this forum are more than willing to help out.  Eventually you'll be able to take your foot off the gas and can coast, but only after you've gotten where you need to go and are well established. 

It's not fair that some people have a lot of this just handed to them.  But that's life. 

[Metric Mouse]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

No mortgage, area with cheap property tax, no insurance, very efficient house.... yeah.

Leaving yearly flights to Ecuador out of that budget....

[Zikoris]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

No mortgage, area with cheap property tax, no insurance, very efficient house.... yeah.

Leaving yearly flights to Ecuador out of that budget....

I thought the flights were done with churning/points?

[Tami1982]

I feel their pain.  I get it.  I'm an under 25k earner and I have been struggling since I joined the MMM community in 2012 to find ways to increase it, and more ways to save.  I will say, finding MMM in 2012 saved my life.  In 2013 I was in a car accident, unable to work for months.  If I hadn't really dug in, and made big changes, I wouldn't have survived those months without pay. 

That said, all of us are unique in our situations.  I'm disabled and work part time.  If I make more than $1,000 a month from working, I lose my SSDI and medical benefits.  I easily clear $100,000 a year in medical care.  So I have had to really work outside the box to increase my income.  It's been hard, but I got creative and am hoping in 2017 a small rental/business venture will increase my passive income (that's allowed.)

But what really made the difference was cutting the fat.  I trimmed everything up.  I was very lucky and bought a house for ridiculously cheap and have a stupid small mortgage.  I have a little debt left, and I'm hoping to have it paid off by the end of 2017, and the mortgage gone by 2021.

I think...I think there is an audience here for people in the lower income group, who have the longer slog.  Four years into this - no matter how much math I do, it's going to take a long time to get where I need to go.  People who make 50K+ who are able to save, can look at retiring in 10-15 or financial independence in that time period.  Those who don't, are looking at a much longer slog.  What is interesting is that before, when you were ignorant, and not fired up about FI and ER, and MMM, you didn't think anything about the years of work ahead.  Once you are "in the know,"  it can become battle after battle in a very long war.  You can become weary.   A tribe that gets that, would be awesome. 

ALL that said.  I have made huge progress in four years.  Tremendous really when you look at the scale I'm operating on.  And I do things like go to Camp Mustache, and I have a trip to Scotland happening in January (Travel hacking for the win!)  A lot can be accomplished with a little, but you have to have the time/energy to  be creative and inventive and that is often hard to harness. 

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing guys!

[boarder42]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

No mortgage, area with cheap property tax, no insurance, very efficient house.... yeah.

Leaving yearly flights to Ecuador out of that budget....

I thought the flights were done with churning/points?

they likely are but could and maybe are just written off as business expense claiming he wouldnt do it without this blog like his nissan leaf splurge.  truth is we all have some form of excess spending even MMM.  some more or less than others.  i can make around 20k a year just side hustling buying/ selling shit and adding AUs to my CC ... income can be increased

[Prairie Stash]

MMM is geared towards higher incomes. No need to apologize or make excuses about it.

Yes, this site has soft and hard posters. I've seen that most people get more frugal as time goes on, if you're seeing softer posts its likely due to the influx of new members (Yay!, its a good thing). Read posters histories to see the evolution of people, its different  than reading todays current postings which is heavily influenced by newer members. You can see it more in the journals, which is more heavily trafficked by long term readers and infrequently by casual new people (judging by responses).

[SisterX]

We're just under the median household income. It still works, but in fact what we needed was the investment piece which is too often ignored by venues focused on lower earners.


Shelivesthedream, I don't read case studies anymore either. Interesting. I hadn't pinned my loss of interest on the numbers, but it could be.

For me, in addition to the numbers it's the fact that the face-punching has basically gone away. People can post about how they have a giant SUV and a truck and other posters will be like, "Um, maybe get rid of one of those?" instead of "WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE THOSE UNNECESSARILY GIANT-ASS VEHICLES FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY?!" If you say that, other posters get mad that the special newbie might get scared off, or the newbie gets offended, or something. It's silly. That's what they're posting a case study for!

[I'm a red panda]

We're just under the median household income. It still works, but in fact what we needed was the investment piece which is too often ignored by venues focused on lower earners.


Shelivesthedream, I don't read case studies anymore either. Interesting. I hadn't pinned my loss of interest on the numbers, but it could be.

For me, in addition to the numbers it's the fact that the face-punching has basically gone away. People can post about how they have a giant SUV and a truck and other posters will be like, "Um, maybe get rid of one of those?" instead of "WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE THOSE UNNECESSARILY GIANT-ASS VEHICLES FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY?!" If you say that, other posters get mad that the special newbie might get scared off, or the newbie gets offended, or something. It's silly. That's what they're posting a case study for!

I wonder if the loss of the face-punching has to do with the "guru" changing his stance on some things.  "I leased a brand new car; but it's totally a business expense, so it doesn't count."

To me it's more of a savings focused forum than anything else. People save in different ways, but overall it's less consumer-driven than other places.

[Erica]

We were living at poverty level when I discovered MMM. 2 1/2 yrs ago.  I kept reading anyway, thank God :)

We live in a high COLA area of California. We are 48 & 55 yrs old. Lost a very modest home my husband fixed up to be cute in 2008. Mostly due to medical issues we had to pay for. Medicaid became available to all people via the ACA so our medical issues we'd had for years...they got cleared up. Total difference when your husband can breathe, he can work. He's never been able to breathe well as long as I've known him. He's on a CPAP machine at night.. Me, well I'll forego in the interest of brevity. But in 2.5 years...

-March 2014 I obtained employment providing medical, dental, life, accident insurance, a few other perks making a little over minimum wage.
-2 years later a $2 Raise per hr
- 401K Introduced next month at work. 25% of my paycheck will be deducted & 3% employer match. 2019 and beyond, it will be 100% deducted because certainly by then, we won't have a house payment due to inheritance received by then (after probate, it just began) + the 50K we just made selling property, see more below on that.
- Inherited 50K from doing hospice for an Uncle. Bought Land for 50K (got lucky) sold for $100K
-Obtained a pre-qualification on a loan. Looking for a home to buy but will probably wait until march 2017 when we can qualify for a conventional loan putting down 10%  instead of FHA at 20% + PMI costs.
- Husband will fix up the new home and re-sell. My last two years of re-search tell me only one really good buy comes up about once a year. Both times I called for fun...we looked at it but couldn't buy. No matter what, our $1250 current Rent will cease right after buying this house. We moved to care for his elderly dad he passed on so will get his inheritance within a few yrs
-Husband is taking an extra side job for the next 6 months. This allows me to put the 25% into my 401k. Would be more but $100 is being taken out for medical/dental which issues cleared up wiithin 8 weeks. So the following year, that $100 a month will be added to 401k
-Joined a Real Estate Investors Group. Will attend the 1st meeting next wk
-Replaced a small part of our cycling with heavy hiking. We hike properties for sale looking for water sources not mentioned in the MLS listing. Hence what happened when we bought our first property recently (ok second property. we lost $ on the first property bought 12 yrs ago)We call first to find out about the owners, how familiar they are with the property because some areas have springs which owners don't realize are there.
- A long term plan was constructed which includes us flipping properties/houses every few years. Husb is a painting contractor and has experience as a handyman so repairs will be cheaper. It also includes how to get the $ out of the 401k to some extent, maybe via a Roth
- Purchased 3 Waterpicks. No I don't believe their scientific studies since they are funded by the makers of Waterpik (Teledyne) BUT since using an electric toothbrush and spraying the water into my mouth 3 x per day, I don't have pockets. They were deeper. Dentist asked what I've been doing. Nothing different except using the water pick and flossing 2-3 times per week. Last cleaning dentist said there was very little plaque and pockets improved bigtime. Dental insurance paid for much needed work but that should be in the past. Healthy gums now!
-Learned work/life balance. Anything I can do at work w.free time I have more free time at home.
-Eat better. Continue to juice vegetables.
-Cut down on caffeine. Instead of buying 1-2 cups of coffee per day, I buy one every other day. Sleep better.
-Attended a church in the town we bought the property. Made friends there who assisted with us knowing the property was more valuable+( it showed a 1020 cabin on the record saving 35K in building permit fees) We have many close friends in this tiny town, most don't attend the little church. Lots of out of towners coming up to cycle for weekends. Eventually we will live there, at least part-time.

Only determining factor is how long my Clients will live. Mainly one client I spend 50% of my time with. Not sure if I am good at this job or if I got lucky with the clients I have. They are graded the highest level coming out of the mental institutions which Gov. Brown has been closing down. The State pays alot of $$ for them

My goal in retirement is to be able to qualify for some medi-care savings program. And if somehow, it could happen very easily, I choose to work until age 62, my 401K if it produced a very low rate, would still disqualify us. SO I have to figure how to exempt or remove that $$ before or somehow work that out. Most important is making sure our son has a decent enough home as his inheritance and at least 100K coming to him at our death. Hopefully more. He is doing ok working for Apple but we paid almost nothing towards his education, just paid for books. He worked during school. We've not been on welfare but poor our entire lives.
Luckily neither of us are drawn to anything fancy anyhow so cycling, chickens, church, hiking, and a few trips to the Hostel (at the ocean) is all we really desire to do. Maybe a week long or weekend cycling tour here or there would be nice.

So our plan did include inheritance BUT had i not been on the forum, I wouldn't be interested in maxing out the 401k starting at age 50 which allows 26K to be contributed, about the level of my current salary. By age 50, I might need to add to the HSA (not employer matched) anything I cannot put into the 401k. Problem is, in California, they add on their own HSA tax which is about 9% for most people. And investment options are crappy so it's like a typical savings account.

[Paul der Krake]

I was a lower income earning single (divorced) person who FIREd at 42 with a decent sized NW and think MMMs message us of equal.value to low income people as it is to high income earners. Maybe of greater value to low income earners because of the stoic message. But I do agree the tone of the forums have changed the last couple of years towards a "softer" stance. I miss the good old face punching days.

Engineering solution: a browser extension that inserts some profanity and "sarcasm quotes" here and there.

You should reconsider buying that 4WD lexus. I understand caring for the safety of your loved ones, but maybe give a thought to the broader impact of your actions on the environment and others.

turns into

Look chicken shit, you should reconsider buying that 4WD lexus. I understand caring for the "safety" of your "loved ones", but maybe give a fucking thought to the broader impact of your actions on the fucking environment and others. Sucka!

[TomTX]

MMM lives on something in the neighborhood of 24k a year.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that this 24k a year includes a lot of creative accounting.

No mortgage, area with cheap property tax, no insurance, very efficient house.... yeah.

Leaving yearly flights to Ecuador out of that budget....

But that's for the BLOG, it's blog money! I blogged about it! Like the electric bike, and the trailer and the new car....  Oh and craploads of improvements to the new house, we got money for that that from selling the old house. That's not really SPENDING it, right? I'm still only SPENDING $24k.

[MrsTuxedocat]

I am not a high income earner and neither is my hubby. Our household income is $110k and we live in a very HCOL. I believe that MMM is geared towards a higher income level, but that does not mean that I can't learn from him and his posts.

I am on the softer side no doubt, I love going out to eat, travelling and my hubby enjoys shopping. I really like my job, love working and feeling productive.  I intent to retire in my 50s, so still early but not super early.

[minority_finance_mo]

My income increased drastically the past two years and I'm thankful I learned about MMM before it did. While I could be more frugal, I probably would have bought a car, some expensive clothes, etc by now had I not started reading this blog. I find the awareness of consumer sucka behavior the largest benefit of reading MMM. With that awareness you can prevent lifestyle inflation when your income goes up by avoiding the big-ticket mistakes.

[APowers]

This was in the r/personalfinance a few weeks ago and I found it interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/5gp7ei/is_there_a_financial_school_of_thought_along_the/

I've always felt like MMM has been geared towards higher paying professionals. And in some ways I think that is his target audience. But I find it interesting to see that a normal reader of reddit would see MMM as an upper-middle class type writer (which I do, too). It also makes me wonder, as MMM seems to wonder too whether or not this site has basically softened a lot.

Anecdotally it seems the majority of posters here make a considerable amount of money and basically get by with "sort of frugal" tendencies but given high incomes allow us all to save while still not really living in an ERE type of way.

Thoughts?

I started a blog for exactly this reason a couple years back. I eventually petered out because I don't enjoy writing, and I had too many other things to do. But I was equally frustrated that there was no-one with a "how-to" or a "look-at-me-I'm-doing-the-thing" for people like me (income level = ~$26k/yr) who intend to be FIRE by age 35.

I do perceive MMM's target audience to be the same as Dave Ramsey's-- rich-but-clueless (i.e., incomes over $40k and just wasting their money). I've also found MMM's blog to be a helpful resource, even though I'm not in his target market.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I liken it to a marathon. It takes planning, dedication and tenacity. It does not take a lot of money if one has enough of the other attributes. Money may make it easier, but it doesn't guarentee the victory or make it any sweeter.

Big fan of running metaphors.  It also takes favorable circumstances - having a rising stock market helps a trained runner complete the marathon early.  For a non-high income earner, it just takes longer to 'train'.  If you have the willingness and temperament, there is hardly any difference in the journey other than those 'elite athletes' finishing way earlier, but you also finish before the masses.

But if the markets suck (e.g. windy, rainy weather on race day), no -one is going to finish early.

[Dicey]

I liken it to a marathon. It takes planning, dedication and tenacity. It does not take a lot of money if one has enough of the other attributes. Money may make it easier, but it doesn't guarentee the victory or make it any sweeter.

Big fan of running metaphors.  It also takes favorable circumstances - having a rising stock market helps a trained runner complete the marathon early.  For a non-high income earner, it just takes longer to 'train'.  If you have the willingness and temperament, there is hardly any difference in the journey other than those 'elite athletes' finishing way earlier, but you also finish before the masses.

But if the markets suck (e.g. windy, rainy weather on race day), no -one is going to finish early.

But If the markets suck, the victory is still most likely to go to the athlete who is the best prepared. The winner, by definition, is the one who finishes before the others, i.e. early.