Reddit r/antiwork

[Log]

A few different thoughts/reactions:

Reddit will always be a strange mix of competent/functional people and the most incapable people who spend all day on the computer in their mom’s basement. The latter unfortunately crowd out the former, so it inevitably becomes a pretty pathetic “woe is me” discourse.

As others have said, Antiwork is a really interesting and fruitful line of thinking to pursue in the advancement of a just and moral society. FIRE and Antiwork are fundamentally aligned around the idea that work for a paycheck should not be the defining feature of a person’s life. The demographics of Reddit are responsible for dumbing down that discourse. Go to /r/fire or /r/personalfinance and you’ll find a lot of morons too. It’s not that antiwork or fire is dumb, it’s that Reddit is dumb.

Recommendation: Capital in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Pikkety goes into great detail on how much worse income and wealth inequality have gotten since the end of WW2, and especially since the ‘80s. It’s a pretty long book and can be dry at times but short version: massive inequality is the historical norm. The shocks to the economy from the world wars and the depression flattened the wealth distribution by a LOT. As the economy “recovers” from those shocks, we’re on track to return to equal or greater wealth inequality than the pre-WW1 era (aka the damn GILDED AGE). After the war, we had a perfect window in time for massive class mobility that is now GONE. We’re in a fundamentally different economy than the one boomers grew up in, and inequality is only getting worse. The on-the-ground complaints from randos on Reddit are coming out of very real differences between how the US economy used to be and how it is now, and the fact is that today’s economy is the norm. It will take hard work and big policy change (read: tax the rich) if we want to make economic mobility the norm again. (There’s also great detail about how inequality accelerated due to certain policy changes [Reagan - he really was THAT bad for our country], and how other wealthy developed nations have differing levels of inequality as a consequence of POLICY. It’s not some hand-wavey BS about cultural differences. It’s laws, it’s taxes, it’s regulation.)

One good thing about increasing taxes on the wealthy is you could have more funding for education - including big problems that have already arisen in this thread like the cost of college, or providing after-care at elementary schools so the schedule isn’t such a burden on working parents. (The irony here is that right now school districts in wealthy towns can already afford after-care when they’re the ones who least need it.)

On the school start times tangent: I was quite fond of the staggered schedule in the district I grew up in. Elementary school started the earliest because the pre-teens and teenagers naturally have sleep schedules that benefit from more (and later) sleep. The high school started at 8:30 and the middle school didn’t start until something like 9:15. This meant extra-curriculars for the middle school could meet for about an hour and then let out in time for parents to pick up kids on their way from work, and high school extra-curriculars could run for longer and get out around the same time. Kudos to my district for nailing it on the scheduling for so long. I think a lot of other places are catching up to this. Similarly, my college didn’t have 8am classes, which just seems like common sense for trying to help students get healthy sleep, which enables better learning.

And lastly: the housing crisis is super painful right now for young people. The macro economic trends were already against us, but the housing market in particular was been regulated into scarcity by single family zoning and overly burdensome development codes. Multi-generational households are becoming increasingly normal as educated, competent young people can’t afford to move out of their parents’ houses. On the anecdotal level, my dad just recently drove through the neighborhood in the LA suburbs where his family lived when he was a teenager. Back in the early ‘80s, everybody parked in their garage or driveway. Today, the entire street is parked up because there isn’t enough parking in the driveways for both the parents’ cars and their adult childrens’. If the macro trends toward inequality and the skyrocketing costs of education aren’t already killing us, car-dependent suburban sprawl and zoning-imposed housing scarcity are certainly finishing us off.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk^tm

[LaineyAZ]

I agree with your post, Log.

And I think most of the frustration seen on Reddit and other forums is that the younger generation and those falling out of the middle class into poverty don't feel heard.  There's lip service given to these societal issues but no real movement to change anything.

Maybe it's too late, and the post WWII boom economy is lost forever.  But a society that doesn't feel it necessary to provide basics like affordable housing, schooling, health care and child care is ripe for revolution.

[wageslave23]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

[Edubb20]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

You possess some combination of intelligence, drive, luck and privilege that has allowed you to succeed in what is an ever narrowing amount of opportunities allowing for said success.  Good for you.  Some people, don't have anything but the "drive" and maybe they won't ever have the same financial ceiling as you, but we can sure as hell give them a better floor to stand on.

[Zikoris]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Eh, not really, I'm living proof that you can half-ass your way to FIRE in your 30s with very little effort if you have simple tastes, avoid making any really big stupid life/financial mistakes, and are good at automating things. I'm a receptionist in a chill office and my partner works maybe three hours a day as a freelance editor for the same types of books he reads for fun. We're 33 and 35 and technically FI now, though we want a bit more money before we pull the plug for our future travel plans once that opens up again.

[jlcnuke]

Let's be honest here.... going to r/antiwork and talking about applying yourself, taking responsibility for your situation, or in some way NOT blaming the evil government, evil older people, or evil people that hire people to do work is like coming here and talking about needing to have 10m,, your primary and at least two international vacation homes paid for, and no less than 4 luxury cars just to consider retiring in your late 60's after you've done everything you can to advance up the corporate ladder and anything else is complete nonsense.

The audience your speaking to is almost fanatical in disagreeing with the opinion your voicing and is not going to adjust their viewpoint.

[wageslave23]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

You possess some combination of intelligence, drive, luck and privilege that has allowed you to succeed in what is an ever narrowing amount of opportunities allowing for said success.  Good for you.  Some people, don't have anything but the "drive" and maybe they won't ever have the same financial ceiling as you, but we can sure as hell give them a better floor to stand on.

Intelligence and drive? Yes. Luck and privilege? No. I figure you probably need a combination of two of those variables to retire early.  You only need one to live a happy, sustainable life. If you have drive and nothing else you should do fine.  If you don't have drive and are below average intelligence, then you are probably SOL regardless of luck (see lottery winners).

[Paul der Krake]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

[poxpower]

The problem with antiwork ( and reddit.. and society at large ) is they rarely understand the problems and even less the solutions.

So they advocate for solutions that make the problems worse and they get exactly what they want...

[solon]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

🙂

[CodingHare]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

I don't know, the fact that we now have the first Amazon Workers Union seems like there are people putting in the legwork to organize the collective anger /r/antiwork represents.  Systemic suppression of unions has been going on for generations, and it will probably take generations to swing the pendulum the other way.  The biggest impact of the subreddit as far as I can see is consistently pushing for unions and labor protections.

It's easy to underestimate the impact mere complaining can have.  But the validation that something isn't right about how workers are treated in America is pretty powerful.  It's a direct attack on the idea that you just need to work harder to get ahead, the idea that America is a meritocracy.  Shared grievances are the first step towards collective action, whether at the poll booth or unionizing.

[DoneFSO]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

I don't know, the fact that we now have the first Amazon Workers Union seems like there are people putting in the legwork to organize the collective anger /r/antiwork represents.  Systemic suppression of unions has been going on for generations, and it will probably take generations to swing the pendulum the other way.  The biggest impact of the subreddit as far as I can see is consistently pushing for unions and labor protections.

It's easy to underestimate the impact mere complaining can have.  But the validation that something isn't right about how workers are treated in America is pretty powerful.  It's a direct attack on the idea that you just need to work harder to get ahead, the idea that America is a meritocracy.  Shared grievances are the first step towards collective action, whether at the poll booth or unionizing.

I don't know who is telling people that one simply needs "to work harder to get ahead," but I would stop taking counsel from that person because he sounds like the same guy who gave a lot of people the advice to "just go to college."  Why any fool ever believed anything that guy ever said, I'm not sure.  While it is indeed true that one needs to work harder... it is also true that one needs to be smarter, to get along better with people, to be more focused on meeting/exceeding the expectations of superiors, to better read the tea leaves of office politics and organizational/industrial changes, to live a more balanced life, to eat healthier, to exercise more, to sleep more... to do lots of things better -- things that make certain people more successful than others. 

Now, if someone said that, I would be inclined to agree with the statement!  But just hard work?  I'm a believer in hard work, but for the purposes of this discussion, hard work is frankly overrated.  Amazon warehouse workers work extremely hard, after all... but they are -- for the most part -- going nowhere because what they've got is the definition of a dead-end job.  A meth head smashing his head against a wall repeatedly is arguably working hard (and making tremendous sacrifices).  But life will reward him not one bit.

These redditors apparently give no credence, at all, to the importance of attitude in the outcomes in one's life... whereas there seems to be a consensus among the wise women and men I have read and admired that attitude is key... if not THE key to achieving success.  So on the one hand, I have the perspective of my heros, who achieved great success in this world and in their lives.  On the other hand, I have the perspective of people whose greatest achievements are getting into giant flame wars on the internet and whose fingers are covered in a mixture of Vaseline and Cheetoh dust.

Full disclosure:  I did not mention it in my original response to this thread, but I did not even read the reddit thread.  I don't spend any time on reddit, and I'm frankly not even sure how it works.  I always assumed it was a place for people who actually care what someone else sitting on a folding chair in his mother's basement thinks about the big issues.  This thread just seems to confirm that.

[nick663]

I find antiwork both interesting and frustrating.  As noted by many posters, they share a lot of ideals with the FIRE community but the solutions are targeted much higher.  The FIRE community seems to be willing to play the flawed game to the best of their abilities to achieve an early exit while antiwork is largely focused on not participating.  Any talk of actionable steps that a user could take to better their situation gets criticized and downvoted.

Sometimes reading the posts in antiwork I wonder about demographics/ages of the subreddit.  A lot of them sound like college kids eager to change the world... and I'm sure their stances will temper a bit once they get out in the working world and make some money.

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

My parents were had similar occupations.  They were able to buy a house before they were 30 and raise 2 kids at a middle class standard of living.  Those jobs now would put you renting at a lower middle class standard of living.

I imagine they could have easily retired in their 30s or 40s if they had white collar jobs like the majority of people in this forum.

[wageslave23]

I find antiwork both interesting and frustrating.  As noted by many posters, they share a lot of ideals with the FIRE community but the solutions are targeted much higher.  The FIRE community seems to be willing to play the flawed game to the best of their abilities to achieve an early exit while antiwork is largely focused on not participating.  Any talk of actionable steps that a user could take to better their situation gets criticized and downvoted.

Sometimes reading the posts in antiwork I wonder about demographics/ages of the subreddit.  A lot of them sound like college kids eager to change the world... and I'm sure their stances will temper a bit once they get out in the working world and make some money.

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

My parents were had similar occupations.  They were able to buy a house before they were 30 and raise 2 kids at a middle class standard of living.  Those jobs now would put you renting at a lower middle class standard of living.

I imagine they could have easily retired in their 30s or 40s if they had white collar jobs like the majority of people in this forum.

My point was that I didn't have any special upbringing.  Just studied and worked hard (smart).  You don't need to come from money, your parents don't need to be educated or have connections, you don't need someone to pay for your college.

[GuitarStv]

I find antiwork both interesting and frustrating.  As noted by many posters, they share a lot of ideals with the FIRE community but the solutions are targeted much higher.  The FIRE community seems to be willing to play the flawed game to the best of their abilities to achieve an early exit while antiwork is largely focused on not participating.  Any talk of actionable steps that a user could take to better their situation gets criticized and downvoted.

Sometimes reading the posts in antiwork I wonder about demographics/ages of the subreddit.  A lot of them sound like college kids eager to change the world... and I'm sure their stances will temper a bit once they get out in the working world and make some money.

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

My parents were had similar occupations.  They were able to buy a house before they were 30 and raise 2 kids at a middle class standard of living.  Those jobs now would put you renting at a lower middle class standard of living.

I imagine they could have easily retired in their 30s or 40s if they had white collar jobs like the majority of people in this forum.

My point was that I didn't have any special upbringing.  Just studied and worked hard (smart).  You don't need to come from money, your parents don't need to be educated or have connections, you don't need someone to pay for your college.

I fast tracked my classes in high school so ended up only needing to be in class for six months to get all the credits for my diploma.  So I took six months off to work to save money for university.  During that time I worked a bunch of shitty jobs at weird hours that paid more than minimum wage and met a lot of people.  One thing that I discovered was that there are plenty of folks who work hard and are smart but are seriously fucked over by where they started.

One girl I met was pretty smart, but her parents were abusive.  So she ran away at 17, spent some time living on the streets, and eventually managed to get back on her feet on her own.  At 18 she was holding down a full time job, splitting rent with some roommates that she lived with.  At 19 she went back and finished highschool during nights while working full time.  Very hard worker, smart girl.  She tried to get student loans to go to university, but couldn't . . . because her parents claimed that she was still living with them (I'm guessing for tax reasons?).  Maybe when she turned 25 she could have tried to apply again and I hope she did . . . but my point is simply that many of us overlook how good we really have things.  Where you start can set up some pretty sizable roadblocks in the way of success.

A lot of the time I agree with you - you don't usually need to come from money, your parents don't need to be educated or have connections, you don't have someone to pay for your college.  But I've come across waaaay too many exceptions to this to ever consider it the rule.

[wageslave23]

I find antiwork both interesting and frustrating.  As noted by many posters, they share a lot of ideals with the FIRE community but the solutions are targeted much higher.  The FIRE community seems to be willing to play the flawed game to the best of their abilities to achieve an early exit while antiwork is largely focused on not participating.  Any talk of actionable steps that a user could take to better their situation gets criticized and downvoted.

Sometimes reading the posts in antiwork I wonder about demographics/ages of the subreddit.  A lot of them sound like college kids eager to change the world... and I'm sure their stances will temper a bit once they get out in the working world and make some money.

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

My parents were had similar occupations.  They were able to buy a house before they were 30 and raise 2 kids at a middle class standard of living.  Those jobs now would put you renting at a lower middle class standard of living.

I imagine they could have easily retired in their 30s or 40s if they had white collar jobs like the majority of people in this forum.

My point was that I didn't have any special upbringing.  Just studied and worked hard (smart).  You don't need to come from money, your parents don't need to be educated or have connections, you don't need someone to pay for your college.

I fast tracked my classes in high school so ended up only needing to be in class for six months to get all the credits for my diploma.  So I took six months off to work to save money for university.  During that time I worked a bunch of shitty jobs at weird hours that paid more than minimum wage and met a lot of people.  One thing that I discovered was that there are plenty of folks who work hard and are smart but are seriously fucked over by where they started.

One girl I met was pretty smart, but her parents were abusive.  So she ran away at 17, spent some time living on the streets, and eventually managed to get back on her feet on her own.  At 18 she was holding down a full time job, splitting rent with some roommates that she lived with.  At 19 she went back and finished highschool during nights while working full time.  Very hard worker, smart girl.  She tried to get student loans to go to university, but couldn't . . . because her parents claimed that she was still living with them (I'm guessing for tax reasons?).  Maybe when she turned 25 she could have tried to apply again and I hope she did . . . but my point is simply that many of us overlook how good we really have things.  Where you start can set up some pretty sizable roadblocks in the way of success.

A lot of the time I agree with you - you don't usually need to come from money, your parents don't need to be educated or have connections, you don't have someone to pay for your college.  But I've come across waaaay too many exceptions to this to ever consider it the rule.

I think that's the real problem.  It's very hard for an economic system to make accomodations for terrible parents.  I don't think that's the government or economy's fault.  Maybe make it easier for children in abusive homes to get out.  Make the punishment for abusive parents more drastic.

[Davnasty]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

[wageslave23]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

They might have been able to do it, I don't know. It's just nobody imagined doing it.

[Sibley]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

They might have been able to do it, I don't know. It's just nobody imagined doing it.

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

[EvenSteven]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

They might have been able to do it, I don't know. It's just nobody imagined doing it.

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

Oooooh I like that. When I retire if anyone asks me what I do, I’m going to tell them I’m landed gentry.

[ixtap]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

They might have been able to do it, I don't know. It's just nobody imagined doing it.

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

Oooooh I like that. When I retire if anyone asks me what I do, I’m going to tell them I’m landed gentry.

I am unlanded gentry.

There have even been classes of super frugal people. Remember hippies? Thoreau (forget Mama's sandwiches, people were inspired by what they read, not the facts).

[Davnasty]

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

Oooooh I like that. When I retire if anyone asks me what I do, I’m going to tell them I’m landed gentry.

I am unlanded gentry.

There have even been classes of super frugal people. Remember hippies? Thoreau (forget Mama's sandwiches, people were inspired by what they read, not the facts).

Perhaps indexed gentry?

[ixtap]

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

Oooooh I like that. When I retire if anyone asks me what I do, I’m going to tell them I’m landed gentry.

I am unlanded gentry.

There have even been classes of super frugal people. Remember hippies? Thoreau (forget Mama's sandwiches, people were inspired by what they read, not the facts).

Perhaps indexed gentry?

I actually like the vagueness of "independent means."

[BikeFanatic]

Those of us who have made it to FI probably have some hidden privilege that is not really thought of as privilege as someone said, I was not kicked out of my house at age 17 because my parents were abusive. That actually makes a big difference if you have to catch up at such a young age. Of the 3 women I know who had similar situations only 1 is FI at 50 ( my former spouse) the others have been poor most of their lives.
Growing up poor may actually help in some ways because you are used to not having things, and were brought up frugal.
For me I paid worked some low paying jobs for  for my own college, graduated at age 30, worked some lower paying jobs until I hit 40 and got a great job, was able to  buy my home at age  40,  married sa secretary  who went back to school, and wound up eventually with a  really great high paying job.  Eventually over 10-15  years  we saved to a point where we were FI. My spouse and I worked hard, saved money, did not spend alot but the jobs we eventually got is what put us over the top and the fact that we both attended college and were able to finally land high paying jobs later in life.
I know someone said they half asses it to FI in Vancouver, but I think it is upbringing, luck , frugality and high paying jobs that get a lot of us there. There are exceptions though, Arebelspy is an example, and Our Vancouver friends.

[wageslave23]

This thread is getting hard to take seriously. This whole forum is made up of people retiring in their 30s and 40s. Something that was even imaginable by my parent's and grandparent's generation.  And we come from all different backgrounds.  My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer. Neither went to college.  I'll be retired with a wife and kids by 40 at the latest.  I'm FI now at 37.  But you do have to work hard at some point.

Why not? There may have been more single income families with more kids but a frugal DINK couple could have easily retired early back then. At some points in history it would have been easier than today. Inflation adjusted median salaries haven't changed much since the 60's but the average person started earning sooner and with less debt (that median salary required less education and therefore less student loans, on average)

Another way to look at it - anyone with the right savings rate and the means to invest can retire early. Which of those factors weren't imaginable in their generations? The hardest part would probably be realizing it was possible without books, blogs, and forums to guide you.

Oh, and I'm only disputing this one point you made. I haven't read r/antiwork, it sounds dumb :)

They might have been able to do it, I don't know. It's just nobody imagined doing it.

Of course they imagined it. They did more than imagine it, there was an entire class of people who lived that life and everyone else was well aware of them. The aristocracy, landed gentry, upper classes, whatever you want to call them.

Well put it this way. Whenever I mentioned to someone from their generation that I plan to retire by 40, they cannot imagine it. It's on the level of me saying I plan on moving to Mars at 40 and living there for the rest of my life. So sure some trust fund babies and business tycoons and military veterans retired early, the vast majority of their generation didn't even consider it a possibility. 

[Tempname23]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

 Can I post your fine work on that sub reddit? Do you want credit or would you rather not? :-)

[ixtap]

Well put it this way. Whenever I mentioned to someone from their generation that I plan to retire by 40, they cannot imagine it. It's on the level of me saying I plan on moving to Mars at 40 and living there for the rest of my life. So sure some trust fund babies and business tycoons and military veterans retired early, the vast majority of their generation didn't even consider it a possibility.

That isn't generational. Even among people who have heard of FIRE, it just doesn't seem real to most of them. My gen X friends who have gone through two bouts of long term unemployment don't believe in retirement, at all.

[Zikoris]

A big factor for previous generations was the lack of good investment options available to everyday people. As far as I can tell, the options for an average Joe wanting to invest but not having a pile of money already were 1. buying individual stocks through a broker or 2. buying garbage high-fee mutual funds through the bank. Now a person can open a low-fee investment account online in about five minutes, often with no minimum balance.

The other big factor was a lack of information. If you wanted to learn the nuts and bolts of building wealth way back then, you'd better have had some rich friends to learn from.

[Paul der Krake]

It's pretty incredible how the world is conspiring to punish these redditors. Despite being much smarter than their bosses and peers, they're being held down. Someone should do something about it.

 Can I post your fine work on that sub reddit? Do you want credit or would you rather not? :-)

No point in engaging, they will either dismiss you as a troll, a bootlicker, a fascist, a rich kid, or any combination thereof.

[jim555]

I trolled them, telling them to take the S.W.E.A.T. pledge.  Promptly banned.  LOL

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/sweat/

[OtherJen]

A big factor for previous generations was the lack of good investment options available to everyday people. As far as I can tell, the options for an average Joe wanting to invest but not having a pile of money already were 1. buying individual stocks through a broker or 2. buying garbage high-fee mutual funds through the bank. Now a person can open a low-fee investment account online in about five minutes, often with no minimum balance.

The other big factor was a lack of information. If you wanted to learn the nuts and bolts of building wealth way back then, you'd better have had some rich friends to learn from.

I agree with this. My parents grew up in poor households headed by immigrant laborers, barely finished high school, married very young, and struggled for several years. My dad's union landed a good contract when I was little (after he was unemployed), and after that he made very good money, but they didn't have any examples of what to do with that money. The people they knew who had retired had Social Security and employer or union pensions. By the time my mom started working full-time in the 90s, options like 401Ks and Vanguard were becoming more available, and my parents were able to start investing in those. By that time, they were in their mid to late 40s.

In the US, we also need to consider health insurance. Until recently, personal health insurance plans were prohibitively expensive and maybe not even available for many people, especially people like my dad who had pre-existing health conditions. He worked at his union factory job, doing physical labor on a recently replaced hip and another hip that needed replacement, until the end of the month in which he turned 65 because he needed employer-sponsored health insurance to carry him through until Medicare kicked in (this was before the Affordable Care Act provisions largely took effect in 2014).

[must-stash-the-cash]

My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer...

I am sure things were not easy for your mom and dad.

The whole point of this thread is that the US economy has changed drastically.  You cant compare what someone was able to accomplish two or three decades ago with what people can accomplish now.  People with similar jobs to your parents are getting crushed by rent, college tuition, medical, etc which have all inflated much faster than pay.

Antiwork has a lot of complaining, but also addresses some very important problems that need to be addressed.

[wageslave23]

A big factor for previous generations was the lack of good investment options available to everyday people. As far as I can tell, the options for an average Joe wanting to invest but not having a pile of money already were 1. buying individual stocks through a broker or 2. buying garbage high-fee mutual funds through the bank. Now a person can open a low-fee investment account online in about five minutes, often with no minimum balance.

The other big factor was a lack of information. If you wanted to learn the nuts and bolts of building wealth way back then, you'd better have had some rich friends to learn from.

+1

[wageslave23]

My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer...

I am sure things were not easy for your mom and dad.

The whole point of this thread is that the US economy has changed drastically.  You cant compare what someone was able to accomplish two or three decades ago with what people can accomplish now.  People with similar jobs to your parents are getting crushed by rent, college tuition, medical, etc which have all inflated much faster than pay.

Antiwork has a lot of complaining, but also addresses some very important problems that need to be addressed.

My point in referencing my parents is that I didn't come from a privileged background.  The average person coming from a low middle class background shouldn't have an excuse for not being able to be successful if they want to.

[must-stash-the-cash]

We had used cars, no cell phones...

Whenever I hear someone complaining about cell phones I know they are heavily drinking the divide and conquer Koolaid.

Cell phones are a necessity of modern life, not a luxury.  There are a lot of jobs you can't get if you don't have a cell phone. They are useful for all kinds of things like paying bills, filing paperwork, storing and organizing documents, avoiding traffic, finding the best gas prices, and more.

You could make the argument that people should have a $40/month plan not $100/month or a used $250 phone instead of the newest $1000+ phone.  I would agree with that opinion. To say that someone should have a flip phone or no cell phone altogether is short-sighted and out of touch with modern life.

[must-stash-the-cash]

My point in referencing my parents is that I didn't come from a privileged background.  The average person coming from a low middle class background shouldn't have an excuse for not being able to be successful if they want to.

You're "low middle class" is now lower class. There is still some opportunity for people to get ahead.  It is much, much harder now. That opportunity is one-half, one-third, or something much less than the opportunities your parents had. People making similar choices and sacrifices as your parents are not going to get as far as your parents did.  They may not even get ahead at all.

I worked hard when I was younger and never got anywhere.  Persistence(for over a decade to get a degree and then use it at work), good choices, family help, more hard work, and sacrifices finally got me over the hump after living paycheck to paycheck for decades. Now I have a couple of sources of income and can save and invest. Retirement is a long way off and may not happen early. I have no disillusion that without all of those things, especially the family help, I would still be in the struggle.

I think things have changed and are headed in the wrong direction. It is now significantly harder for people to get ahead than it was for your parents.  We should probably just agree to disagree.

[Zikoris]

We had used cars, no cell phones...

Whenever I hear someone complaining about cell phones I know they are heavily drinking the divide and conquer Koolaid.

Cell phones are a necessity of modern life, not a luxury.  There are a lot of jobs you can't get if you don't have a cell phone. They are useful for all kinds of things like paying bills, filing paperwork, storing and organizing documents, avoiding traffic, finding the best gas prices, and more.

You could make the argument that people should have a $40/month plan not $100/month or a used $250 phone instead of the newest $1000+ phone.  I would agree with that opinion. To say that someone should have a flip phone or no cell phone altogether is short-sighted and out of touch with modern life.

Eh, I think this is a bit much. I've never had anything other than a flip phone, and I have never had any trouble finding jobs, paying bills, or any of that other stuff. I've definitely never been asked about my phone situation in a job interview. The most backlash I've ever had would be someone thinking it's weird, and then I just tell them I'm low technology for ethical reasons. It's really no different than me not eating meat for ethical reasons or not buying other stuff because the companies use slave labor or whatever. I think the actual number of people who "need" a smartphone is extremely low and people mostly use that as an excuse to feed their addiction.

[Log]

My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer...

I am sure things were not easy for your mom and dad.

The whole point of this thread is that the US economy has changed drastically.  You cant compare what someone was able to accomplish two or three decades ago with what people can accomplish now.  People with similar jobs to your parents are getting crushed by rent, college tuition, medical, etc which have all inflated much faster than pay.

Antiwork has a lot of complaining, but also addresses some very important problems that need to be addressed.

My point in referencing my parents is that I didn't come from a privileged background.  The average person coming from a low middle class background shouldn't have an excuse for not being able to be successful if they want to.

In addition to others’ responses, I think the “average person” is the victim of pretty awful parenting and mediocre schooling - and those can be difficult things to overcome. The fact is, we live in a world where average people are failing, so perhaps we should examine why, rather than taking for granted the privileges that enabled us to access opportunities.

[mcraw25]

Only 1-2% of the American workforce is on Federal Minimum wage.  Statistically insignificant. Politically its huge. Interesting right?   

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2020/home.htm#:~:text=The%20percentage%20of%20hourly%20paid,collected%20on%20a%20regular%20basis.

[DadJokes]

My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer...

I am sure things were not easy for your mom and dad.

The whole point of this thread is that the US economy has changed drastically.  You cant compare what someone was able to accomplish two or three decades ago with what people can accomplish now.  People with similar jobs to your parents are getting crushed by rent, college tuition, medical, etc which have all inflated much faster than pay.

Antiwork has a lot of complaining, but also addresses some very important problems that need to be addressed.

My point in referencing my parents is that I didn't come from a privileged background.  The average person coming from a low middle class background shouldn't have an excuse for not being able to be successful if they want to.

In addition to others’ responses, I think the “average person” is the victim of pretty awful parenting and mediocre schooling - and those can be difficult things to overcome. The fact is, we live in a world where average people are failing, so perhaps we should examine why, rather than taking for granted the privileges that enabled us to access opportunities.

Are average people failing? I haven't gotten that impression from the average people I encounter daily. Average people may not be retiring early, but they aren't failing. The people complaining on the internet are a tiny portion of the population.

As another user noted, 1.4% of Americans earn minimum wage, and a full 44% of those are under 25.

[Mr. Green]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

[Sibley]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

This is interesting, can you please elaborate? I've seen the Simpsons some, but have never watched it regularly.

[DadJokes]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

Any sitcom, animated or not, has always overestimated what people can afford.

If TV was anything like real life, it would be incredibly boring.

[Log]

My mom was a part time secretary and my dad was a laborer...

I am sure things were not easy for your mom and dad.

The whole point of this thread is that the US economy has changed drastically.  You cant compare what someone was able to accomplish two or three decades ago with what people can accomplish now.  People with similar jobs to your parents are getting crushed by rent, college tuition, medical, etc which have all inflated much faster than pay.

Antiwork has a lot of complaining, but also addresses some very important problems that need to be addressed.

My point in referencing my parents is that I didn't come from a privileged background.  The average person coming from a low middle class background shouldn't have an excuse for not being able to be successful if they want to.

In addition to others’ responses, I think the “average person” is the victim of pretty awful parenting and mediocre schooling - and those can be difficult things to overcome. The fact is, we live in a world where average people are failing, so perhaps we should examine why, rather than taking for granted the privileges that enabled us to access opportunities.

Are average people failing? I haven't gotten that impression from the average people I encounter daily. Average people may not be retiring early, but they aren't failing. The people complaining on the internet are a tiny portion of the population.

As another user noted, 1.4% of Americans earn minimum wage, and a full 44% of those are under 25.

The median wage is just a bit over $34,000 per year. Median household debt is almost $60,000. Most Americans have a high school diploma but not college degree. That’s what “average” is in this country. It’s easy to see upper-middle class suburban bubble as normal in America when that’s what’s predominantly depicted in media, but it’s quite a bit above average. The meaning of “failing” might be subjective and values-based, but in terms of what I feel actually matters—community, contemplation, fulfilling work, a sense of meaning—even a lot of the upper middle class is not doing so great.

There is a real crisis of meaning in this country. Life expectancy was going down even before COVID, largely due to increases in drug over-doses and suicides. People are lonelier than ever. Trust in institutions is at an all-time low. Most Americans hate the two-party system, don’t trust the government, and either don’t vote or constantly feel they’re just voting for the lesser of two evils. Young people are increasingly giving up hope that any meaningful action on climate change will happen in time, and are fully expecting to live to essentially see the climate apocalypse.

Optimism can be a powerful force, and there are signs of positive progress in which we can place our hope, but blind optimism without acknowledging the challenges we’re up against doesn’t help anyone.

[Mr. Green]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

Any sitcom, animated or not, has always overestimated what people can afford.

If TV was anything like real life, it would be incredibly boring.

Only that was a fairly accurate depiction of affordability 30 years ago.

[ixtap]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

Any sitcom, animated or not, has always overestimated what people can afford.

If TV was anything like real life, it would be incredibly boring.

Only that was a fairly accurate depiction of affordability 30 years ago.

BS. Their house size was slightly above average and well above median at the time. It was comparable to other TV families and perhaps not as exaggerated as Friends, but it wasn't a depiction of affordability.

[Mr. Green]

The most fascinating thing I've seen from r/antiwork that seems an easily digestible example of how things have changed is The Simpsons. I never really thought about it before but when you look at that, it's quite clear that there has been a marked, fundamental shift in what the middle class can afford.

Any sitcom, animated or not, has always overestimated what people can afford.

If TV was anything like real life, it would be incredibly boring.

Only that was a fairly accurate depiction of affordability 30 years ago.

BS. Their house size was slightly above average and well above median at the time. It was comparable to other TV families and perhaps not as exaggerated as Friends, but it wasn't a depiction of affordability.

I must have missed the episode where they gave the exact square footage of their house. Sure looks like every other house built around the late 80s and early 90s. The broader point being no one would even dream of illustrating that situation as average today. And I don't mean just the house. Single income, high school educated, three kids, decent house. The whole shebang. Sell that as a new show to the masses as average in 2022.

[Paul der Krake]

I must have missed the episode where they gave the exact square footage of their house. Sure looks like every other house built around the late 80s and early 90s. The broader point being no one would even dream of illustrating that situation as average today. And I don't mean just the house. Single income, high school educated, three kids, decent house. The whole shebang. Sell that as a new show to the masses as average in 2022.

We have data on this and it's pretty clear that Americans have never had bigger homes than they do today.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/

Since only one in 3 Americans is college educated and by and large, college graduates shack up with college graduates, it follows that there's gotta be a big chunk of high school graduates who live in big houses.

[Mr. Green]

I must have missed the episode where they gave the exact square footage of their house. Sure looks like every other house built around the late 80s and early 90s. The broader point being no one would even dream of illustrating that situation as average today. And I don't mean just the house. Single income, high school educated, three kids, decent house. The whole shebang. Sell that as a new show to the masses as average in 2022.

We have data on this and it's pretty clear that Americans have never had bigger homes than they do today.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/

Since only one in 3 Americans is college educated and by and large, college graduates shack up with college graduates, it follows that there's gotta be a big chunk of high school graduates who live in big houses.

I would want to see how many more people are renting apartments or stuck with their parents today compared to 30 years ago they can't afford a house. That study just looks at house size, not who is buying them.

And while sure there are plenty of high school educated people living in large houses, how many do you know doing so with three kids on one income. I don't know any, or anything even close to that.

[ixtap]

Nevermind