The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: WoodsRun on June 17, 2015, 11:58:39 AM
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This is a rant, a space where I can vent anonymously.
My parents still have a large mortgage on their house. I started my professional career almost four years ago so a few months ago I agreed that I would be able to help them out for some time. So I give them $700/month to help out with a couple bills. They live in an outer borough of NYC, so it is not Manhattan expensive, but it is definitely HCOL compared to the rest of the US. I live in central Connecticut, and I know that it is more expensive compared to a lot of other areas, but it is much cheaper than even the outer boroughs of NYC.
They have been pushing for me to get a job in NYC over the one I have now so that I can be closer to them, but I really like it here. I suppose it is a little odd for someone my age to prefer CT over a city like NYC, but I like the space and parks and the culture here. Their logic is such that I won't have to pay rent in CT and will be able to help them out more if I take a job in NYC and live with them. It is very sound logic but I really do not want to live with them. I love them but I need my own space.
A little about myself: 25 year old male, gross about 53k a year which includes bonus and OT, so I take home maybe 30k a year after taxes, deductions and 401k contributions. I am the oldest of four siblings; my sister recently got married to a cop and she herself is a nurse. Together they gross about 110k a year and live in the outskirts of Queens in a nice neighborhood so they are all set and I'm very happy for them. One of my brothers just got a job as a lab tech after graduating with his bachelors a month ago, and my youngest brother is still in undergrad. My younger brothers live with our parents.
What I find annoying though is that my dad has been paying my sister's student loans and car insurance, and I told my parents last week that should stop considering her and her husband make a good salary. (My dad should not have been doing that at all to begin with but anyway..) And of course, my dad goes and buys one of my brothers a car after he graduated. Something that he does not need considering he lives in Queens and he works in Manhattan.
My thoughts are a little convoluted, but I think I just need to grow some b**ls and sort out this whole money situation. $700 is not a whole lot but it is not chump change either considering how much I make.
I have been looking for something higher paying here in CT and plan to stay here for a very long time. After a lot of thought I have decided that I really do not want to go back to Queens or Long Island because the cost of living is much higher than what I think it is worth. Queens was always an affordable part of NYC but in the past ten years housing prices and rent have sky rocketed. And central CT is far away enough from Boston and NYC that the cost of living is lower, but still a short drive away from both cities.
My family is important to me and I wish only happiness for them but sometimes they drive me nuts. My rant is over for now, thanks for reading this far.
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Are you living with your parents?
If not I find it odd that you're giving your parents money each month that they then turn around and spend on your siblings. You might as well give your sister the money for her students loans directly and be done with it.
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If all the adults in this situation behave like adults, everything will be solved.
It's silly for your parents to be paying your sister's student loans while they're also getting money from you.
Stop giving your parents money immediately. If they're smart they'll see your reasoning and stop paying your sister's loans and car insurance too.
If they don't though, that's their problem.
I know you care about your family but you gotta look out for A Number 1 because no one else in this situation is.
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I was going to say the same thing.
700/mo!? That's close to a third of your take home.
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I could not give my parents money if they were supporting a sibling that seems to be doing ok. I can see you folks wanting to help out a newly married couple but if they need cash from you then they cant afford to be generous. 700$/mon is a huge on going chunk of cash.
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Are you living with your parents?
If not I find it odd that you're giving your parents money each month that they then turn around and spend on your siblings. You might as well give your sister the money for her students loans directly and be done with it.
Frair is right.
Your dad is essentially facilitating a transfer of wealth from you, to your sister. Given that your sister's household grosses 2x what your household does, that is egregiously unfair.
You're 25. You should be spending your money on doing all the things you want to do as a young person. (and saving for retirement of course)
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If you consider the fungible quality of money, it's you paying for your sister's student loans and your brother's car. And $700/mo invested at 7% over 10 years is like $121K. Hardly chump change!
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I was going to say the same thing as PP - it's essentially like you are giving your sister $700 because it's all flowing through to her. If you're not ok with that, then stop immediately.
I know this is hard sometimes with parents. Just tell them something came up. Lie. Tell them you need it to pay a bill, even if you don't. You're paying yourself instead and that counts.
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Shoot, $700 a month is no chump change to us and we are fortunate to have relatively LCOL and good salaries. At $30K take home a year, $8.4K is DEFINITELY a big portion. 28% of your take home!!
This would definitely upset me too, since you're essentially subsidizing these other things. This is why I am so hesitant to give money to others: every little other expense I end up viewing as being paid with "my" money in the sense that apparently my money used towards essential items freed up more funds that can be used for non-essential expenses.
You don't need to tell them that they should stop giving away money to your siblings; you can only control what YOU will be giving them. Drop or reduce your contribution. How they choose to handle it from there is their choice. You can also gently explain that you're trying to get on your own feet, if they press you.
And no, it's not ridiculous that as a grown person you don't want to live with your parents, esp with their rationale of "you wouldn't have to pay rent so you could help us out more". I mean....makes no difference if you "pay rent" of $1000, or "help out" with $1000 per month other than taxes (since one I think would be rental income).
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Your dad is essentially facilitating a transfer of wealth from you, to your sister. Given that your sister's household grosses 2x what your household does, that is egregiously unfair.
You're 25. You should be spending your money on doing all the things you want to do as a young person. (and saving for retirement of course)
Stop paying your parents anything immediately. It's the only way they will get the message. You should not be part of their finances any longer.
You should continue to live on your own & where you want to. If they really want to be closer, they could move -- it works both ways.
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Just tell them that you love CT and plan to make your home there…that you are saving for a house down payment…and that as much as you care about them, appreciate all they've done for you…etc. etc. ..that you can no longer give them the $700 per month. I don't really see why you would be giving it to them anyway. And you don't really need to explain yourself or concoct a reason…but "house downpayment" is hard to argue with. (Whether you really want to buy a house or not, lol.) If there is some reason you have been giving them the money that you have not told us…then that would be different. If you borrowed money from them and are paying them back, then of course you should continue to do so. (But that isn't what you posted, so I'm assuming that's not the case.) Are there any cultural issues in play? Are you all from a culture where the adult children are expected to subsidize the parents? Just asking.
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Are you living with your parents?
If not I find it odd that you're giving your parents money each month that they then turn around and spend on your siblings. You might as well give your sister the money for her students loans directly and be done with it.
No I do not live with my parents, I live in CT. My two younger brothers live with my parents in NYC, and my sister lives in a different neighborhood in NYC along with her husband.
I was going to say the same thing.
700/mo!? That's close to a third of your take home.
If you consider the fungible quality of money, it's you paying for your sister's student loans and your brother's car. And $700/mo invested at 7% over 10 years is like $121K. Hardly chump change!
Yes it is a large percentage. This has been going on since only January so I have not yet given a lot in absolute terms, but if the money is only going to support siblings then I do not want this to go on. My parents did not help me out when I graduated and moved, they should not help out my siblings either considering they graduated and have jobs.
And no, it's not ridiculous that as a grown person you don't want to live with your parents, esp with their rationale of "you wouldn't have to pay rent so you could help us out more". I mean....makes no difference if you "pay rent" of $1000, or "help out" with $1000 per month other than taxes (since one I think would be rental income).
Thanks for confirming this lol, I suppose it is easy to feel bad since they are my parents.
Just tell them that you love CT and plan to make your home there…that you are saving for a house down payment…and that as much as you care about them, appreciate all they've done for you…etc. etc. ..that you can no longer give them the $700 per month. I don't really see why you would be giving it to them anyway. And you don't really need to explain yourself or concoct a reason…but "house downpayment" is hard to argue with. (Whether you really want to buy a house or not, lol.) If there is some reason you have been giving them the money that you have not told us…then that would be different. If you borrowed money from them and are paying them back, then of course you should continue to do so. (But that isn't what you posted, so I'm assuming that's not the case.) Are there any cultural issues in play? Are you all from a culture where the adult children are expected to subsidize the parents? Just asking.
Spot on. My parents are immigrants, they moved to the US in the 1980s, I was born here in the US along with all my siblings. The culture is very much stay close to the family and help out your parents when you can. So there is definitely a culture clash involved here as well.
And no I never borrowed from them, they did not pay for my undergrad (went to a public school on scholarship, thank goodness), never bought me a car, etc etc. I lived with them while I was an undergrad and commuted to school and they did not charge me rent for that time, so I suppose you can say that helped me not get into debt. But otherwise I did not borrow from them.
I suppose I just need to make them understand that I do not plan to move back in the forseeable (sp?) future. And that I do want to save money for a condo (which is true).
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You don't need to make them understand that you no longer want to live with them or in NYC -- you just continue to do what you want to do while telling them you love them.
Given the possible culture, your parents may see you, the eldest, as a resource extension for them, but this thinking does not make it appropriate. You should not feel guilty or obligated in any way.
When DH & I married at 21 (1969) in the Chicago area, our parents were horrified that we immediately moved to Texas for our careers & life. It was the best move we ever made for independence, quality of life, happiness, & financial well being. My parents divorced several years later & I was so glad not to be part of or privy to any of that drama. We have stayed close to extended family members & visit back & forth.
I hope this is your call to be truly independent. You must not be a part of enabling your parents & siblings to not face their own responsibilities & growth.
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OP, I'd suggest continuing to pull $700/m from your spending, and put it in a separate account/separate investments. Think of it as the "if my parents were in desperate need" fund--but also as the "if they aren't, this is for my future" fund.
That way you aren't subsidizing your sister, but you'll know that if your parents every truly needed your help, you would be able to. Win/win.
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If you consider the fungible quality of money, it's you paying for your sister's student loans and your brother's car. And $700/mo invested at 7% over 10 years is like $121K. Hardly chump change!
Exactly what I was going to say.
I'd bow out. I'd tell everyone involved "Mom, Dad, Sis: Love ya, but you guys have to sort this out amongst yourselves."
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Oftentimes parents need to say "no - you need to make it on your own" to their kids, but in this case you need to tell the parents "no - we all need to make it on our own". That includes you, your parents and your sibling. Sounds like some enabling is going on. I think everyone will benefit when it stops.
Definitely don't feel bad about living on your own. Also, you do not need to be helping your parents who in turn are helping a sibling who should be able to manage on their own. I also would set that 700/ month aside for your self, and only tap into it if they have a true one time emergency.
Best thing we ever did when we first got married and graduated was to move 1,100 miles from all parents. Made us grow up and it set good boundaries for everyone. If you like where you live, enjoy it!
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I was going to say the same thing as PP - it's essentially like you are giving your sister $700 because it's all flowing through to her. If you're not ok with that, then stop immediately.
I know this is hard sometimes with parents. Just tell them something came up. Lie. Tell them you need it to pay a bill, even if you don't. You're paying yourself instead and that counts.
No, don't do this. No offense to the quoted Mustachian intended at all; it was sincere advice. However, that will only prolong the problem. The real issue is the ability to say "no". It is something you learn with age and experience. I was in a similar position and forked over cash to fuel my Dad's wasteful habits for years before getting super pissed off one day and cutting my parents off. That is not the best route either. The relationship is repaired but things could have been handled more smoothly(just to be clear, I was 100% right in what I did, just maybe not in how it happened).
Go over to their house one day and explain the situation to them and how you do not think it is fair. Be prepared for arguments, anger, and possibly even tears from your mother, but stand your ground. Then give them a little time to cool off before continuing on the otherwise good familial relationship.
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If the ethos is "Help out your parents," why isn't your sister doing it? It seems that in this situation, "Helpout your parents" is only for patsies (as viewed by your parents). And they don't even need the money — since they're giving it away every month.
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I would not put it in terms of fairness--"you didn't help me, so it's not fair to help my siblings." Parents have the right to do what they want with their own money. The issue is that they are using your money to help your siblings, which is not what you agreed to.
Another caution--don't try to make your parents understand. They are getting a nice benefit in this situation (at your expense), and it's unlikely they will suddenly see reason and see your side of things. There are no magic words that will make them do so. Just tell them what you're going to do and why. Don't get into an argument, don't offer justifications, don't defend yourself. You need to do what's right for you. They will have to accept it. Whether they like it or not is unfortunately not under your control.
Easier said than done, I know.
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Ah, I feel for you. My mother asks me for money, while living in an expensive house she can't afford, and supporting my brother who doesn't work, which I really don't approve of. I have given her giftcards to buy clothes since she complains she has nothing to wear (which is true) but then she will use the card to buy him an expensive pair of boots. It's at the point I only give small token amounts, but nothing to subsidize her.
It sounds like your parents now feel rich because you are giving them 700 a month (Wow that is a lot on your income!!!) That's not fair. Maybe have an honest heart to heart, and some guilt of your own, that you are just starting out and need to save for your own future and not to be a burden on them, and isn't that what all parents want for their children? You can even embellish a little, saying someday may want to have a house and family and want to save for those things.
And that you are willing to sit down with them to review their finances, to see if any cuts, or whether they can downsize.
Whew. No one likes these kind of talks.
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One of the toughest transitions can be the one from parent-child to adult-adult. The parent is used to being in control & the child is used to doing what the parent says and/or enjoying being taken care of. When the child reaches adult age, one of them has to take the initiative to change the dynamics of their relationship. The other may not be happy about it, but this must not change or distort reality.
You have to unlearn living your life to please your parents. You have to learn to say no.
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$700/month is huge dude! That's $8,400 a year after tax, probably 10-11k before tax. I'm guessing if you saved that instead of gave it your your parents it would double your savings rate. HUGE!
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One of the toughest transitions can be the one from parent-child to adult-adult. The parent is used to being in control & the child is used to doing what the parent says and/or enjoying being taken care of. When the child reaches adult age, one of them has to take the initiative to change the dynamics of their relationship. The other may not be happy about it, but this must not change or distort reality.
You have to unlearn living your life to please your parents. You have to learn to say no.
This. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
The cultural expectations you are dealing with are tough. I really do feel for you.
But something this massively unfair would definitely threaten to destroy my relationships with my family. And that is why I'd stop handing over "help" with the mortgage. I also think you set the stage for future adult parent/adult child interactions. It sounds like they're having a pretty hard time with the concept of you leaving the nest/being an independent adult.
I would not put it in terms of fairness--"you didn't help me, so it's not fair to help my siblings." Parents have the right to do what they want with their own money. The issue is that they are using your money to help your siblings, which is not what you agreed to.
Another caution--don't try to make your parents understand. They are getting a nice benefit in this situation (at your expense), and it's unlikely they will suddenly see reason and see your side of things. There are no magic words that will make them do so. Just tell them what you're going to do and why. Don't get into an argument, don't offer justifications, don't defend yourself. You need to do what's right for you. They will have to accept it. Whether they like it or not is unfortunately not under your control.
Easier said than done, I know.
I think this is spot on, too. There is such a thing as overexplaining....and that actually can weaken the boundary, too...because it's like saying, I guess I need to provide you an "acceptable" explanation for making [whatever decision you totally have the right to make on your own]. There's a difference between trying to make them see your point of view, and explaining, "I'm going to save for a condo here, so I won't be able to help out anymore"...and leaving it at that. Kinda like breaking up with someone (weird comparison?) - there's such a thing as trying too hard.
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I'm with everyone else... $700/mo is a lot of money. If you are looking for people to back you up so you can work up the courage to tell your parents you will no longer help support them while they are just funneling the money to your sibs... I think you've found it here.
Detachment from parents here is key. My mom would have me living at home if she could. Of course our relationship has a somewhat co-dependent dynamic that I won't go into here (she is co-dependent on me emotionally, not me on her) but I've found that it has been absolutely vital to my own sanity and well-being to cut her out as much I can. Sucks, but you have to be your own person, wish the other well, and live your life. Just do you.
But yeah.. as another posted mentioned.. I'd keep sending that $700 out since you're used to it as an outflow now, but toward an investment account rather than parent's (of course assuming you're already maxing your pre-tax accounts). You won't notice it and since you're young, you have the opportunity to compound that money over time.
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Sounds like you should move in with your sister and borrow your brother's car.
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You don't need to make them understand that you no longer want to live with them or in NYC -- you just continue to do what you want to do while telling them you love them.
When DH & I married at 21 (1969) in the Chicago area, our parents were horrified that we immediately moved to Texas for our careers & life.
You had a lot of courage to do that at 21, props to you. I do not yet have that to stand up to my parents, not yet lol.
OP, I'd suggest continuing to pull $700/m from your spending, and put it in a separate account/separate investments. Think of it as the "if my parents were in desperate need" fund--but also as the "if they aren't, this is for my future" fund.
That way you aren't subsidizing your sister, but you'll know that if your parents every truly needed your help, you would be able to. Win/win.
I do plan to save as much as I can, so I am prepared for whatever the future brings.
If the ethos is "Help out your parents," why isn't your sister doing it? It seems that in this situation, "Helpout your parents" is only for patsies (as viewed by your parents). And they don't even need the money — since they're giving it away every month.
I had to look up what 'patsies' means, that seems to describe me in this situation lol
OP - Your situation sounds very much like the norm in my Asian (Vietnamese) neighborhood (I'm Caucasian) where the oldest son is expected to help the parents and family (including sibs) financially and the oldest daughter is expected to care for the parents in their old age, and everyone is expected to live together in the family home even after marriage and children (grandparents watch the kids while parents work). ...
That is a pretty good explanation of my parents culture. I do not have a Vietnamese background but my parents are from an obscure country in Asia (but I don't check off 'Asian' in surveys because we are not 'Asian' if that makes sense). Anyway, it is a bad culture clash. I wish I didn't have to distance myself though, and they just understood that I just want to live my own life, and that it does not mean I want to cut contact with them.
Ah, I feel for you. My mother asks me for money, while living in an expensive house she can't afford, and supporting my brother who doesn't work, which I really don't approve of. I have given her giftcards to buy clothes since she complains she has nothing to wear (which is true) but then she will use the card to buy him an expensive pair of boots. It's at the point I only give small token amounts, but nothing to subsidize her.
It sounds like your parents now feel rich because you are giving them 700 a month (Wow that is a lot on your income!!!) That's not fair. Maybe have an honest heart to heart, and some guilt of your own, that you are just starting out and need to save for your own future and not to be a burden on them, and isn't that what all parents want for their children? You can even embellish a little, saying someday may want to have a house and family and want to save for those things.
And that you are willing to sit down with them to review their finances, to see if any cuts, or whether they can downsize.
Whew. No one likes these kind of talks.
This must suck. My parents are also in an expensive house in an expensive city. I wish they would downsize and move to a cheaper area. It is not like they have a lot of kids living with them anymore, my youngest brother is already 20, it should not be long before my two brothers move out as well.
I'm with everyone else... $700/mo is a lot of money. If you are looking for people to back you up so you can work up the courage to tell your parents you will no longer help support them while they are just funneling the money to your sibs... I think you've found it here.
Detachment from parents here is key. My mom would have me living at home if she could. Of course our relationship has a somewhat co-dependent dynamic that I won't go into here (she is co-dependent on me emotionally, not me on her) but I've found that it has been absolutely vital to my own sanity and well-being to cut her out as much I can. Sucks, but you have to be your own person, wish the other well, and live your life. Just do you.
But yeah.. as another posted mentioned.. I'd keep sending that $700 out since you're used to it as an outflow now, but toward an investment account rather than parent's (of course assuming you're already maxing your pre-tax accounts). You won't notice it and since you're young, you have the opportunity to compound that money over time.
That explains my mother as well unfortunately, but that is a whole other issue which I do not want to get into right now either.
And yea I think I just needed some support and I found it really quickly here!
Sounds like you should move in with your sister and borrow your brother's car.
This literally made me laugh out loud
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So, despite all the good advice, I recommend something different. I think you should sit your parents down, thank them for helping you by letting you live there for free for 4 years in college and tell them that you would like to pay them back for the rent, but after that you need to save for a condo, married life, etc. then you should figure out a decent amount probably $350 a month and pay them for 48 months of rent. If you give them $700 a month, you will be done in 2 years total, you have told them in advance what you are doing, you have paid off a debt that was obviously unnamed, but was nevertheless a debt. You get to be honorable, they helped you graduate debt free.
After you have told them this, you can mention that it seems odd that you are giving money to them and they are giving money to your sister, but it is their money and they can do whatever they want with it. It is a lot of freaking money but you are paying off a debt. Tell them along the way, how much you have given and how many months you have left. Encourage them to save it for themselves. Make it clear that it ends 24 months after you started in January. You need to start your life, they should see that. So pay them back.
I know this may not be popular advice, but these are his parents, and obviously the "you can live here for free in college" was a lie. He is making decent money, he can afford to pay his parents back. Everyone wins. He tells them what to expect from him, they get some time to make their own decisions. He can even tell his siblings that this is what he is doing. It sucks that parents don't treat all their children the same, but life isn't fair, so pay your debt and be done.
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I moved out at 17, and though I got a little help here and there, I've been on my own over 20 years now.
Most of those were expensive, wasteful years.
for the OP, I would tell your parents "I can do that for one more month, and then you'll need to figure it out. Sis makes plenty of money now, and everyone is happy. I don't have a desire to move back home, I like where I am."
if needed you can bring up that the money went from you to the siblings, and just let everyone know you've got your own savings goals.
Might not be an easy conversation to have, but you need to be fair to yourself. You make a few thousand more than me, at 14 years younger. Learn from my mistakes, save that $$
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A common story I hear about immigrant parents is that they want the adult kids at home with them. Does no one ever point out to these folks that they moved away from their own parents? TO A DIFFERENT COUNTRY???
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Do your siblings know that your parents are in need of financial help and they are receiving $700/mo from you? If they don't the first conversations should be with them. Perhaps they would not be accepting money from your parents if they knew their financial truth. I don't think you necessarily need to cut off your parents completely if they really need the help, but you should not be subsidizing your siblings indirectly. I do give money to my elderly mother who felt horrible having to ask me for it. What I have done is taken over a particular expense that I pay directly. I also help out a sibling occasionally but always in the form of a loan.
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So, despite all the good advice, I recommend something different. I think you should sit your parents down, thank them for helping you by letting you live there for free for 4 years in college and tell them that you would like to pay them back for the rent, but after that you need to save for a condo, married life, etc. then you should figure out a decent amount probably $350 a month and pay them for 48 months of rent. If you give them $700 a month, you will be done in 2 years total, you have told them in advance what you are doing, you have paid off a debt that was obviously unnamed, but was nevertheless a debt. You get to be honorable, they helped you graduate debt free.
After you have told them this, you can mention that it seems odd that you are giving money to them and they are giving money to your sister, but it is their money and they can do whatever they want with it. It is a lot of freaking money but you are paying off a debt. Tell them along the way, how much you have given and how many months you have left. Encourage them to save it for themselves. Make it clear that it ends 24 months after you started in January. You need to start your life, they should see that. So pay them back.
I know this may not be popular advice, but these are his parents, and obviously the "you can live here for free in college" was a lie. He is making decent money, he can afford to pay his parents back. Everyone wins. He tells them what to expect from him, they get some time to make their own decisions. He can even tell his siblings that this is what he is doing. It sucks that parents don't treat all their children the same, but life isn't fair, so pay your debt and be done.
This is good advice, something I can afford and something that will make them happy. I don't know if they would be happy about the timelime I give them though, but I think after two years at least my siblings will be on better ground financially speaking.
Do your siblings know that your parents are in need of financial help and they are receiving $700/mo from you? If they don't the first conversations should be with them. Perhaps they would not be accepting money from your parents if they knew their financial truth. I don't think you necessarily need to cut off your parents completely if they really need the help, but you should not be subsidizing your siblings indirectly. I do give money to my elderly mother who felt horrible having to ask me for it. What I have done is taken over a particular expense that I pay directly. I also help out a sibling occasionally but always in the form of a loan.
Yes my siblings do know. My youngest brother (who is also one of the more rational members of my family) agrees that it does not make sense for me to give my parents money. I just wish my parents would be a little more responsible with their money. Or if they really do need help be more open about their finances. I am more than willing to help them out, but if it just enabling irresponsible then the extra cash is not really helping them.
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I'd stop ASAP. "It's clear you guys are okay financially since you have plenty of cash for non-necessities like help out Timmy and Susie. So I'm sending the $700 check this month, but I want you to know it will be the last one."
Setting boundaries is hard, especially with family. But the longer you delay, the harder it gets, and it is only putting off the inevitable. Helping your parents if there is a true need is one thing. Supplementing your sibling's incomes, with your parents as the middle man, is another.
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If you consider the fungible quality of money, it's you paying for your sister's student loans and your brother's car. And $700/mo invested at 7% over 10 years is like $121K. Hardly chump change!
Exactly what I was going to say.
I'd bow out. I'd tell everyone involved "Mom, Dad, Sis: Love ya, but you guys have to sort this out amongst yourselves."
Pretty much this.
Mom, Dad, I need to save more for my future and for emergencies. If you can afford to pay my sister's loans and to buy my brother a car, you don't need my money anymore.
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I'll echo the cultural expectation being difficult, but you NEED to set boundaries. I'm a white male marrying into a very ethnically Chinese family, my fiancee is the youngest of 5, all the siblings including us do pretty well financially.
Her parents are expecting an allowance, and also expecting our house to be open to them as they travel around for long term stays. I am very much not on board with this and my fiancee thankfully is very understanding and we're going to work to find a middle ground. They don't own a place of their own and are essentially live in babysitters for her two older sisters who still have kids that need watching (the brothers' kids are teenagers and no longer require help).
That was just to give context, this isn't about me but I somewhat know where you're coming from.
Why are they helping your sister but not you? I'm not saying you should ask for help financially from them since that will likely come back to haunt you in an argument down the road, but at the very least they should understand you make approximately half of what your sister's family makes yet they're subsidizing her poor decisions (re: student loans and new car?)
Do they not see you as 'needing help' because you're so independent? Just trying to get a feel for the logic, either way you're fully justified in saying 'Look, if you need help from me I'm there for you, but I can't afford to subsidize sister when I make less than half of her family and need to support myself.'
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Your parents are assholes.
They should be ashamed of themselves for taking your money. Especially $700/mo. That's crazy.
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My guess is that it is because my sister just got married recently, so my father might feel that he has an obligation to help his newly-wed daughter out. She was married in March of this year so it has only been a few short months since her wedding. (I am not married by the way). I do not yet want to bring this up with my sister, at least not until the newly-wed euphoria dies down a little more, maybe after the summer.
Also, I am the oldest son which is really important considering where my parents are from. So they probably feel that I should be able to support myself financially as well as any help that my family needs.
However, I do feel privelaged that I am even able to afford to help them out. That is a bright side to all of this. From one point of view, it is great that I am seen as responsible enough to help out.
And the support on this forum is pretty great lol, I think I just needed confirmation that I was not being unreasonable.
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Your parents are assholes.
I concur!
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My guess is that it is because my sister just got married recently, so my father might feel that he has an obligation to help his newly-wed daughter out. She was married in March of this year so it has only been a few short months since her wedding. (I am not married by the way). I do not yet want to bring this up with my sister, at least not until the newly-wed euphoria dies down a little more, maybe after the summer.
Also, I am the oldest son which is really important considering where my parents are from. So they probably feel that I should be able to support myself financially as well as any help that my family needs.
However, I do feel privelaged that I am even able to afford to help them out. That is a bright side to all of this. From one point of view, it is great that I am seen as responsible enough to help out.
And the support on this forum is pretty great lol, I think I just needed confirmation that I was not being unreasonable.
The cultural aspect is difficult, and there is always going to be one generation that has to make the cut, really.
My very good friend is from China, her husband from Malaysia. She and her sister both send her parents money, and have since they got jobs (though it was $200/ month. OF course that was over a decade ago, maybe it's higher now.)
When they travel to Malaysia, they are expected to pay for EVERYTHING, including a vacation all-expenses for 20 people in the extended family.
"That's how it's done" is a tough one to get over. It's NOT the American way, and I suspect that you won't expect your children to give you money. So how do you be "that guy" to break the mold. I guess go slowly? There are good things about extended families and other cultures, but you get the good and the bad.
Even in the US - My MIL has a big house. It's great for visiting - we visit her, and other family members from Europe visit her (she originally from Scandinavia). Extended visits would be a month at most (not us, we don't have that kind of vacation).
However our house is super tiny (2BR, 1BA, 1100sf), nobody wants to stay with us longer than 4 days. Actually, up to a week when it's a single person, and then only my MIL.
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Support used to be a tradition here as well, my Dad and Uncle both sent money to the aunt who raised them for her whole life (and my uncle's widow kept doing it when he died). But she had very little income of her own, she never married, her young adult life was spent raising her dead sister's children.
Given the cultural dynamics, and the fact that OP did live at home rent-free for university, I think the backpay of rent (350/month for 4 years = $700 for 2 years) should satisfy the family dynamics and get OP off the hook reasonably soon. Of course stopping it now is financially better, and given the support going to others it does make more sense. But what will that do to the family relationships?
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Funny how different cultures are - in ours it is next to impossible for me to actually pay for anything when I am visiting family abroad. even in places that take dollars. treated as personal insult, family goes to great length not to not even present such situations. 'You are our guest, that is the end of it!' .
to the OP - cut parents off, the transfer payments are bad deal for everyone involved
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Cut them off from the gravy train you are giving them. If everything you said is true, they aren't adults. I don't deal with crap like this no matter who it is or what relationships could be damaged. Tell them how it is. You will not give them anything when they are doing ridiculous things like paying your sister.
If you don't stand up now and draw a line in the sand, they will think they can run roughshod over you your entire life. It won't end. They need to know where you stand on this issue. And you don't stand for this BS. Be strong. Eventually they might even come around and realize you are the better person and they could respect you for standing up for your beliefs.
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They should be ashamed of themselves for taking your money. Especially $700/mo. That's crazy.
This was my thought as well, but I was raised in a completely different cultural context from the one you describe. I expect that they are actually proud, not ashamed, that you are giving them that large amount of money.
Here is my fear with the "I'll repay you for rent while I was in college over the next two years plan": they will really come to expect that money from you and it will be EVEN HARDER to say "no more" 18 months from now. While it might lessen your guilt right now, is it really a workable plan?
I have some questions for you:
1) How did the amount of $700 per month even start? Why $700 and not $500 or $1000?
2) Are you MAXING your pre-tax 401K contributions? By maxing, I mean your contributions add up to the current IRS maximum of $18000 per year, so you are contributing $1500 per month pre-tax. I don't mean are you giving some piddly amount of a few percent to get your company match.
If the answer to #2 is "no", then I vote for you to stop the contributions as soon as possible. Like next month is the last month as suggested above. You must save that money pre-tax if you can. It's just common sense to make the most of your money, and it will provide a cushion of much much more $$$ to really help your parents later if they end up really needing it at some point. Clearly they do not need it now.
To put it in context, I understand that it is hard to cut someone you love off. I was helping someone out with over $1000 per month for a period of a few months last year (it initially was only supposed to be one-two month as a gift but that turned into 3-4 months). The first two months it was badly needed, but the next couple of months not so much. I finally just had to say "this is the last month I am sending this money." It might have gone on much longer and become part of our "normal" if I had not taken that simple action. Yes, there was some guilty feelings inside my head that happened right when I did it, but those feelings passed very quickly. You can do it!
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I am surprised you agreed to it in the first place - basically you are paying for your sisters studies and insurance, even though they doing fine - maybe better than you. And your dad is getting the credit.
That's just weird.
If you haven't bought a house, saving for the deposit could be a big out.
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Coming from a south Asian background with similar expectations, I do sympathize with the situation.
To the OP, have you considered talking to your brother and sister who are the recipient of your cash generosity? They may not be aware that your parents need help financially and are essentially taking the money you provide for them. Maybe a discussion with them on this topic may be helpful as your siblings are born in America and more likely to see your point of view.
Also, I know this started as a rant but you should feel proud of all the help you are giving. Maybe the circumstances need to change a bit but your previous post indicating your graditude for the situation you are in to help your parents and siblings (the latter a bit unintentionally) is a great place to be in life. You are indeed lucky. Great job!
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for the OP, I would tell your parents "I can do that for one more month, and then you'll need to figure it out. Sis makes plenty of money now, and everyone is happy. I don't have a desire to move back home, I like where I am."
I would say exactly that. Direct and to the point. When I said above that my Vietnamese friends distance themselves from their families, I didn't mean they cut them off at all. They just chose to say something like the...above yet stay involved with their families/parents. They visit, share holidays, help with chores, home, etc... they just don't give them money or get involved with the day to day financial or cultural expectations of their parents - unless the parents are truly in a bad way financially.
I come from a similar experience as you. I encourage you to figure out what being a good son means to you. It sounds like it may be similar to what spartana says (bolded above). Once you know what that is, you have a strong foundation from which to act (versus reacting). In this way you can be involved with your family, but in ways that are healthy and sustainable for you.
Quick notes:
- If you choose to have a conversation I suggest not trying to change their mind/have them agree, but instead to share how much you love them/are proud to be their son, are happy you were able to help them and now need to use the money to save for a home.
- I've found that if you're single people (not just family) often think you don't have a life and can take on extra hours at work, give money to others, offer free babysitting, etc. This may not be true in your situation, but I thought I'd mention it just in case it's relevant.
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Are you living with your parents?
If not I find it odd that you're giving your parents money each month that they then turn around and spend on your siblings. You might as well give your sister the money for her students loans directly and be done with it.
Frair is right.
Your dad is essentially facilitating a transfer of wealth from you, to your sister. Given that your sister's household grosses 2x what your household does, that is egregiously unfair.
You're 25. You should be spending your money on doing all the things you want to do as a young person. (and saving for retirement of course)
Since there's ranting happening here, I'll rant that people who ask questions that show they didn'tread/understand the OP and then give bad advice based on their incorrect assumptions are worthy of their very own rant thread. Same for those who second bad advice. (I'm criticizing the behavior, of course, not the person(s).)
As to the OP, this is one of those put-your-mask-on-first situations. You're not making enough to be shelling out this much cash, particularly since your parents are not using it well. You wouldn't waste it, so you shouldn't have to watch them do so. If you're not comfortable with cutting them off completely, find more constructive ways to spend your money on your parents. Send them on a trip, pay one or more of their regular bills, or save up and pay for repairs to their home. Save for your own retirement, because your parents will one day be gone and your siblings aren't going to take care of you. Plus, if you don't break this cycle, your siblings will expect the same from you after your parents are gone. There will never be an easier time to solve this than now.
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When I first started giving them money I didn't mind so much really. I figured they will need help eventually (I really have no idea how their mortgage will be paid, so it is either I help them now or later). It is the fact that I found that they are irresponsible with their money. In a way I was pretty naive to think that they will only use the money for their mortgage/bills. They are not frugal, and I can write a book explaining how they are spendthrifts.
I am not currently maxing my 401k. When I first started it over a year ago, I put in the max company match; I put in 4%, my company puts in 1%. At first I thought I should not put in a lot in case I need the money now, and I thought I can't take it out until retirement, all the common misconceptions. But after reading more about personal finance I realize now that I should definitely put in the maximum allowable amount.
I do need to talk to my brother and sister saying that they need to start paying for their own stuff. I think someone mentioned that if my parents want to help my siblings then I can't say much and that life isn't fair, but if they keep helping my siblings they will only end up financially unprepared in their old age and who will be responsible for them? Now that my brother and sister both have jobs they should take on some of the responsibility of helping my parents out if they need it.
And yeah there has to be one generation that has to do most of the transitioning from the old culture to American culture. Since my siblings and I are the first generation to be born Americans, it will fall on us. I don't see children in my future but if I do have children of course I would not expect any financial help from them as adults.
The $700 started as follows: my parents thought a round figure like $1000 would be appropriate but I said that I cannot afford it, and it is much more than I used to pay in rent ($675 for a studio when I first moved to CT but moved to a house where I am renting one bedroom for $625 with utilities included. Now I am moving in July to share a two bedroom apartment with one other person so my rent will go down to $515 plus utilities). So I brought it down to $700. The last check I gave them my mother despaired that I "always gave $700" which is when I said to both my parents they would not need more money if they didn't give money to my brother and sister. And that is when I got mad and started this rant lolol
Also, I am really glad I found this community. I started reaching Jacob's ERE over a year ago and got hooked and found a few other blogs, including MMM.
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The last check I gave them my mother despaired that I "always gave $700"
Ouch! No good deed goes unpunished, I guess, huh?
Obviously you are a good son who wants to honor them. Most people feel good when they are able to help parents. At least we are supposed to feel good about it, but I suppose that is more difficult when there is criticism about the amount provided! I wonder if your Mom has a friend who says her son provides more? Is there some "keep up with the neighbors" competition going on here? Despite their mortgage, it sounds like they don't actually need the money right now at all. I think it's more of a point of pride and cultural expectation for them.
Be very careful: this system of expectations developed at a time when average lifespans were much, much shorter, families were larger, and extended families all lived in one dwelling/one household. Clearly your Mom wants to keep things that way with her pressure to live with her. With today's longevity, smaller families, and the desire of adult children to move to new areas and have an independent household (adding a large expense not present in the past), this system of children paying the way for parents can lead to a cycle of poverty, one that is often now observed and perpetuated in SE Asia.
It is going to be very difficult for you to transition from this cultural system unless you do it yourself, now. If you continue to give them such huge amounts money rather than saving now while you have time on your side for compound interest, then you might be in very, very bad financial straights as you approach old age. And if you do decide not to have children, or if you decide you don't want to be a burden to your own children financially, then you'll be in big trouble if you keep up the current percentage you are shelling out to your folks.
You didn't ask for financial advice, but a Roth IRA could be a good option for you as well. You can access your own contributions to a Roth at any time without penalty, so that gets rid of the "what if I need money now?" question. Several people on the MMM forum use the Roth as their "long-term emergency" fund. Also consider that you need to up your 401k contribution. Try a percent or two increase every three months and see what effect it has on your paycheck. Trust me, 15 years from now you'll be very glad you did that!
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Would your parents be at all interested in having a monthly conversation about budgeting/money with you?
Maybe you could frame it from that perspective - "I'm willing to help, but I want to help - not hurt you - and giving you money every month is hurting you. I want to be supportive though and if you are interested, would love to sit down on a monthly basis and work through your finances with you."
It's pretty unlikely to be a good idea but depends greatly on your dynamic with your parents.
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Even allowing for the cultural component…and I have total respect for the OP honoring his heritage and his parents…it is sounding more and more like his parents are just using him. I think that the fact that they are taking advantage of him is more of an issue here than anything else. I hesitate to sound bossy or like a buttinsky, but I think the OP needs to stop enabling the parental money grab, and just tell them no. I don't even think he needs to pay back rent for the college years, but perhaps that is already a done deal. The OP needs to take care of himself. That is not selfish, it is just everyday common sense. Nobody else is going to do it for him, and he certainly can still maintain a respectful, pleasant family relationship without him ending up in his own old age with no house and no retirement fund. It's nice to be nice…and hey--I'm very family-oriented, too--but in the OP's case: Enough is enough!
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Could you try weaning them off? For example this month $700. The following month $600. Then $500 and so on.
You would need to clearly explain to them what is happening, and that you will no longer be giving them money.
You need to find a way out of this, especially since they are wasting the money.
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"The last check I gave them my mother despaired that I "always gave $700"
That is easy to change - make it $650 next time!
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I'm of the opinion that children don't owe their parents for raising them as they didn't choose to be born.
If they didn't pay for your college or help you out after moving out, I don't see why you need to give them any money at all since they didn't do their "parental roles" according to custom.
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I'm of the opinion that children don't owe their parents for raising them as they didn't choose to be born.
If they didn't pay for your college or help you out after moving out, I don't see why you need to give them any money at all since they didn't do their "parental roles" according to custom.
I do think when kids leave school/uni and start working, they should contribute to household expenses if they live at home.
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This thread has blown my mind!
Dude! Stop giving money to your parents if they are just using it to subsidize your healthy employed siblings.
Knowing how hard it is to be a sibling with parents that treat their kids unequally this thread makes me sick to my stomache.
OP I wish you luck in this situation.
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I suppose I just need to make them understand that I do not plan to move back in the forseeable (sp?) future. And that I do want to save money for a condo (which is true).
I would not cut them off without warning. Hand them the $700 one more time, but include the message that this will be the last time because [insert whatever truthful or diplomatic reason that you desire].
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So... OP... What are you going to do? You've received a lot of good advice. If you plan to take action, please do so and report back how it went.
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I gave my mom $500.00 for mother's day this year. She said it was too much money. I said use it to get someone to watch my dad so she can get out and do stuff (he has dementia). She just called me today and said she spent it on getting his dentures fixed which was fine, but then she told me she bought a new bed that probably cost thousands of dollars because it is one that the head and foot of the bed move up and down.
She continues to spend money she really doesn't have fixing up her house. She is determined to spend every last dime she has because he will probably have to go into a home sometime soon. She complains to me about not being able to do upkeep of their house, so she has hired someone to help out, but she was out power washing the house and cement yesterday. They live about 3 hours away and she will not move closer as she has a lot of friends and won't leave them. I told her she should be spending her money on help with my dad, but she would rather just complain and then buy stuff she doesn't need or replace carpet that doesn't need it (her carpet looks better than mine!). So, basically, when I give her money, she spends it and still spends more on stuff she doesn't need. I am at my wits end!
I feel for you OP! You don't want to give your parents money and then see them turn around and give it to your sister. But, it is so hard to dictate how the money should be spent. Even if you buy them the stuff they need, they will turn around and use their own money to help your sister, so you are indirectly are supporting your sister.
Hope you can solve this problem! I hope I can too! Miss Prim
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I have received a lot of good advice and comments but I haven't figured out exactly what I'm going to do. Today isn't good to bring it up because it is Father's day lol. Maybe next time I give the check I will bring up that they should not be giving my adult siblings with jobs money anymore if my parents are struggling with their own bills. If I was living with them of course I should have been contributing to their household expenses, and I would not care as much what they do with their money but I don't live with them.
It's hard to say that they're selfish because that is the culture that they were brought up with and they want to uphold. If I was born in a foreign country I don't know what my mentality would have been if I immigrated into the US and had American born children. And I will probably never know.
And it's not even that they are from a semi-developed country, or a nation with a rising economy. They are from a nation that is extremely backwards politically, economically, and in pretty much every way I can think of. If they were from say Russia, or China, or Brazil I feel it would be a bit easier to adjust to American culture than from the region that my parents are from. That's how backwards I think it is. Never mind the 'all cultures are created equal'; there are some cultures that are simply superior to others.
Part of it is really on me, I need to learn to stand up to my family for myself. And as a few pointed out now is the time because it will only get harder later in a few years. I do need to give them a reason for me to stop the checks, I can't simply halt the checks without an explanation. I'm sure that will be really bad for family dynamics.
I don't know, but this was good to get my thoughts a little more organized.
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You may benefit from bringing in an outside party if the family is amenable. That way you aren't the only one disturbing the current situation; a financial adviser would concur that in the US, most adult children do not send money to their folks as monthly support/payback/whatever you call it. That the "American Way" is pretty boot-strap in nature and the kids born here have all absorbed that message even though the parents do not grasp that that's the case.
Is it culture that keeps your sister & BIL accepting the money?
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I've been thinking about this some more today. As the above poster said, the American culture is different, and you all are living here now…making your homes here and presumably staying here permanently. Do your parents realize how detrimental it's going to be for you if you follow the old ways to help them…and then in the future your totally American born-and-bred children won't have the slightest motivation or intention to do the same for you? By subsidizing your parents now (the "old" cultural norm), you are absolutely destroying your own old age (which will be lived in the "new" cultural norm, where kids don't usually support their parents). Frankly, I am worried about you. This situation is likely to damage you badly. And how are you going to meet and marry someone over here…I doubt that your hypothetical future girlfriend/marriage partner is going to be thrilled that you gave all that money to your parents…and may be still doing it. Very scary scenarios, OP.
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Call a family meeting with the siblings - and spouses. Lay out on the table that mom & dad aren't in a good financial spot and haven't saved for retirement. Ask them for suggestions on how to help mom and dad. Carefully listen - maybe they'll have some good ideas. Give them what you think mom & dad's budget is (ballpark it) and ask if anyone has ideas on helping them. Now you're making your parent's problems (and correspondingly yours), theirs to solve - and engaging them in finding a solution/getting their buy in. If no one has volunteered yet, point out that they are paying for the other's loans and cars. Suggest they take responsibility for their own debts - remind them you managed to do so.
Explain you won't be paying $700/month going forward because you need the money yourself, so everyone needs to find $700 in your parent's budget, or you all collectively need to be chipping in (with lower sums for the one in college - e.g. $200 the other 3 and $100 for the one in college). At the end of the planning session, write down what was agreed upon and save that - send it around to everyone and remind them of it. Finally, gift your parents a session with a financial planner (and attend with them if you can). This will hopefully 1) help them get their expenses under control and 2) hopefully help them understand that they can't rely on you for the solution - or at the very least, the weight needs to be shared equally amongest the four children.
And know that the the best you might be able to get them to agree with is a partial subsidy rather than the full one they might accept in their country. (When they left, did they cut off ties with their parents or did they send money back? If they cut off ties, you can point to that.)
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- Ask one of your best (male) friends to come with you next time
- Tell your parents how excited you are that both NY and CT allow gay marriage
- Discuss which bedroom you and your husband will use in NYC. Or maybe you can use the 700 US to have a down payment on a condo
Upside, your parents will no longer care too much about the 700USD. Downside, they may never speak to you again...
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CommonCents has a great idea about having a meeting with your siblings and laying out the parental financial issues for them. At a minimum they need to stop letting parents pay their bills or give them money, especially the sister with the job and husband.
Your parents might not be interested in a planner, but it you go that route please be careful about who you choose as a financial planner; many of them are just looking to put their hands in your pockets or their pockets.
- Ask one of your best (male) friends to come with you next time
- Tell your parents how excited you are that both NY and CT allow gay marriage
- Discuss which bedroom you and your husband will use in NYC. Or maybe you can use the 700 US to have a down payment on a condo
Upside, your parents will no longer care too much about the 700USD. Downside, they may never speak to you again...
While this would be entertaining, and I have suggested it to many friends who have parents being very pushy about not dating enough or not get married soon enough, it might not work. I have a friend from Asia who is very openly gay an in his 40's, and his Mom still hounds him about getting married to a woman and having a family. I have witnessed this, and it seems to be very awkward for everyone in the room except her. She just refuses to change her mind about what will happen in the face of 25 years of facts to the contrary.
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The last check I gave them my mother despaired that I "always gave $700"
Ouch! No good deed goes unpunished.
I'm late to the party and don't have much to add other than congratulating you on your super human control. I'm imagining someone saying this to me after handing them a gift, and I guarantee the string of expletives could be heard around the world.
Now it's time to turn take that self-control and hold strong when they're begging you for money they clearly don't need.
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While this would be entertaining, and I have suggested it to many friends who have parents being very pushy about not dating enough or not get married soon enough, it might not work. I have a friend from Asia who is very openly gay an in his 40's, and his Mom still hounds him about getting married to a woman and having a family. I have witnessed this, and it seems to be very awkward for everyone in the room except her. She just refuses to change her mind about what will happen in the face of 25 years of facts to the contrary.
Have you seen Ang Lee's "Wedding Banquet"? Its an old film, but a goody.
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What if you told them that the money is intended to help them if they need it, but clearly they don't since they are passing it along to siblings who don't need it either? That being the case, as of next month (so one more check), you are going to stop sending the money to them and start investing it. That way, it will be available if and when they are at a point where they truly need help. Because if you keep things up, the money will be gone and when they reach a point where they truly need money, you won't have it to give.
Perhaps phrasing it like that will make it seem a bit more like you are meeting those implicit cultural obligations. You'll keep the money and invest it, when if and when there is a true need, you will be happy to help out (assuming that is the case). Focusing on the fact that in some ways, that money is still going to be available to help out may take some of the sting out for them. Of course, if they never reach a point where they need it (or they only need some of it), then it will just stay as part of your stache. But by focusing on the fact that keeping it now instead of putting it out there for non-necessities, you will be better able to help when help is truly needed, maybe the message will be a bit more in line with their cultural expectations, while still allowing you to prevent the waste.
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What if you told them that the money is intended to help them if they need it...as of next month (so one more check), you are going to stop sending the money to them and start investing it. That way, it will be available if and when they are at a point where they truly need help...[this way] you will be better able to help when help is truly needed, maybe the message will be a bit more in line with their cultural expectations, while still allowing you to prevent the waste.
Like this ^ but minus saying anything about the sibling or non-necessary spending.
Instead keep the focus on what your parents are expecting (that you give them support) and share with them that you plan to uphold cultural values, but this is a new country/economy and, as such, you need to go about it differently than in the old country. In this new context you must become financially solid so that you can be a good son to them. In this way you're not abandoning cultural values, but rather making sure that they can be honored in this new place.
Note: Immigrant parents of my dear friend once said they moved to the USA so their kids could have a future, but that it was hard for them to let go of their previously much-needed day-to-day mentality.
I wish you the best of luck.
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I would stop paying them, immediately. I'd put that money in an emergency fund, and not tell them about it - and if they're truly in trouble, you can help them out, but stop it with this allowance thing!
IF there is no way around paying them, and you really feel a strong obligation, or you want to taper them off slowly... I think that contributing that much money in the household gives you a say in the household's finances. If I was helping out my mom like this, I would INSIST that we sit down every month and look at where the money went. If they're not spending your $$$ wisely, they are not respecting you and the hard work you did to earn that money. If you are contributing that much money (it's a lot!) then you get to look at where all their money is going.
If they don't like you having a say, and they don't like you looking at their finances and making decisions about spending, then they will have to figure out how to do it without you.
I think it's so sad that your parents are pressuring you to move home so that they can have your rent money. Parents should be looking out for their kids, and encouraging them to make the decisions that are best for the kids in the long run - not just trying to make your major life decisions with nothing but their own self-interest.
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Is it culture that keeps your sister & BIL accepting the money?
I didn't even think of it that way. No they should not be accepting any help financially.
I'm not really worried about marriage at the moment, it probbaly won't happen anytime soon at all, but as a few others pointed out it is my retirement that I am concerned about. But I am pretty sure that I will be alright, I am saving for a downpayment for a condo now, maybe a small two bedroom place and getting a roommate so that I can pay that off as soon as I can. After that I will be on much better ground financially speaking.
There is no one specific that my parents mention about anyone who gives money to their parents, not sure if there is a keep up with the Jones' kind of mentality with them. But they do mention stories and such of people becoming very successful and their families are living a much more comfortable life.
I definitely don't want to burden my youngest brother who is still in undergrad, he deserves to not worry about money while he is still in school. But I will start pressuring my other siblings about taking some more responsibility for their own expenses.
- Ask one of your best (male) friends to come with you next time
- Tell your parents how excited you are that both NY and CT allow gay marriage
- Discuss which bedroom you and your husband will use in NYC. Or maybe you can use the 700 US to have a down payment on a condo
Upside, your parents will no longer care too much about the 700USD. Downside, they may never speak to you again...
I should just do this, it will be so much easier and quicker lol
The idea that I should invest the money now on my own so that I can take advantage of compound interest over a longer period of time is good; and the funds being available later if they need it. I should bring this up to my family.
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The idea that I should invest the money now on my own so that I can take advantage of compound interest over a longer period of time is good; and the funds being available later if they need it. I should bring this up to my family.
I agree that you should do this. If you tell them this, don't expect their approval. It may even backfire -- people can act badly when they believe there's money that they can access. My grandmother left $10K (1974) to my father in a ten year trust, with me as trustee, because she was afraid he'd immediately spend everything else in her estate. She was correct. During the 10 years, my father constantly was after me to break the trust & give him the money, but there was no actual emergency. This was when I was in my mid-20s, so saying no to my parent was very difficult. However, I wanted to honor the trust my grandmother had in me & preserve something for my father. I wish my father had the same regard for me. At one point, he hung up on me & didn't talk to me for a year -- he must have thought he was punishing me but it was actually a relief. Reluctantly I realized that he only called when he wanted something. When I transferred the money after the 10 years, I had doubled it.
We helped out my brother after his heart surgery a few years ago, in $1K increments that happened about every week. When it totaled $10K, he complained that it was time for his next payment, with no plan for the future. Although I went over his expenses with him at the start, as a condition of the payments, he was not willing to cut anything that made a difference. Meanwhile, his partner had not looked for a job for 3 years. Two cars, both with big loans. A large house with a large mortgage at 8% interest. Major CC debt & a terrible credit score. We said no to any further payments & he was furious -- he expected us to support his lifestyle because we are FI & he was declared disabled. Finally, last fall he & his partner declared bankruptcy & he lost the house.
Conclusion: Neither relative appreciated the help. Family relationships can not & should not be purchased.
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Very good advice here from everyone. OP, if you feel like reading, check out The Millionaire Next Door, with particular attention to the chapters on Economic Outpatient Care.
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Ill add the same.
Wtf are you thinking??
Through the chain of money transfer you are paying for your sisters bills, and she has double your income.
Wtf. Wtf. Wtf.
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Through the chain of money transfer you are paying for your sisters bills, and she has double your income.
Just one note, directed at many not just KungfuRabbit who happened to make it most recently. Your sister does not have double your income. Together with her husband *they* have double your income. This is critical distinction, because *they* also now have double the parents who might need support.
I still, as stated up thread, think that she ought to pay her bills which includes her student loans. But on other threads I know others have been annoyed at the expectation that people will pay more because of a spouse's job without considering that the couple may also have double responsibilities (and some increased bills from supporting two). In this case it sounds like they aren't actually shouldering the double responsibility, but regardless I felt it important to make this distinction.
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I agree that you should do this. If you tell them this, don't expect their approval. It may even backfire -- people can act badly when they believe there's money that they can access. My grandmother left $10K (1974) to my father in a ten year trust, with me as trustee, because she was afraid he'd immediately spend everything else in her estate. She was correct. During the 10 years, my father constantly was after me to break the trust & give him the money, but there was no actual emergency. This was when I was in my mid-20s, so saying no to my parent was very difficult. However, I wanted to honor the trust my grandmother had in me & preserve something for my father. I wish my father had the same regard for me. At one point, he hung up on me & didn't talk to me for a year -- he must have thought he was punishing me but it was actually a relief. Reluctantly I realized that he only called when he wanted something. When I transferred the money after the 10 years, I had doubled it.
We helped out my brother after his heart surgery a few years ago, in $1K increments that happened about every week. When it totaled $10K, he complained that it was time for his next payment, with no plan for the future. Although I went over his expenses with him at the start, as a condition of the payments, he was not willing to cut anything that made a difference. Meanwhile, his partner had not looked for a job for 3 years. Two cars, both with big loans. A large house with a large mortgage at 8% interest. Major CC debt & a terrible credit score. We said no to any further payments & he was furious -- he expected us to support his lifestyle because we are FI & he was declared disabled. Finally, last fall he & his partner declared bankruptcy & he lost the house.
Conclusion: Neither relative appreciated the help. Family relationships can not & should not be purchased.
This is heartbreaking. It's sad what money can do to family relationships.
And 8% rate, on a mortgage... ouch!
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OP, my first reaction upon reading your plan to perhaps tell your family that "the money will be saved and available later" was the same as that of GizmoTX. I think it enables them to feel like they don't really need to plan or be careful with their own money. This is a very bad idea for them. After all, what if some tragedy befalls you? Also it seems to encourage them to keep bringing it up to see if "later" is here yet :-)
It seems like maybe a better approach would be something of acknowledging your love for them but noting that no one really seems to be really struggling now and you can't give them your money. They should not plan to rely on you to support them (even if in your mind you plan to support them at some point in the future.) They won't like it. Just keep reinforcing that you love them but will not give them your money at this time. If it keeps coming up, answer with "we've already discussed this." Then don't discuss it again other than "I love you, and I want you to know that. But I've already talked about this with you." Mom will keep bringing it up; your answer will stay the same for many, many years at the very least.
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I agree with the idea of stop paying them directly now, put money in savings so it's available to you if they ever do have a true financial emergency (which hopefully they won't), and in the meantime it's earning interest instead of being blown every month. If you take the approach of "paying them back" for rent for a year or two, I'm concerned you will wind up right back in the same place you are now - them expecting this money (and more!) from you every month, and you agonizing over what to do. It's best to just deal with it now, IMHO.
My husband and I aren't Asian, but he is the oldest of his 3 siblings, and he's like you in a lot of ways - got a degree (which he paid for himself through scholarships and student loans, which he paid off within a year of graduating), got a good paying job, we're very responsible with our money (no car payments, only $6k left on the credit cards from $150k in medical expenses over the last 12 years), I have a good paying job, too.
Meanwhile, his siblings (both in their 30s) don't work, still live at home, and his parents pay for their brand new cars (we drive a 1998 and a 2005, both of which we bought used and paid cash for), their clothes, their food. When the fiance (also unemployed and living with my in-laws) of one of the siblings complains that they didn't buy enough of his favorite soda that month, they run out to the store to buy more.
My in-laws are planning to retire next year. They still have a large mortgage, which they plan to continue having in retirement, and they only have the same amount saved in their retirement account that we do in ours, even though they're 30 years older than us. Thankfully they have pensions and 401ks that will help them, but it will still be tight.
My point is, in all likelihood they will continue to support their children until they die. (Any time we suggest that they recommend the siblings get a job, they say "We can't do that! That will upset them!" The siblings practice a lot of emotional blackmail - threaten to harm themselves if the in-laws ever suggest they take responsibility for themselves, but refuse to see a mental health counselor or other professionals for help.)
You don't want to wind up in the kind of situation where you're providing a large chunk (or all!) of the financial support for your parents and/or siblings for the rest of your life, and it's deceptively easy how guilt, expectations, and a strong desire to please the people you love can combine to make that happen.
In our case, we flat-out say to my in-laws every once in a while "You do realize that heaven forbid anything ever happens to you, we will not take over financially supporting the siblings, right?" Our 3-year-old already understands the concepts that 1) things require money to buy, 2) she will need to get a job to buy her own car and her own house when she is ready for those things. (She has decided on a red car already.) Our 1-year-old will also be taught those things at a very early age.
Please do keep us posted on what you decide to do.
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I agree 100% that we should help out our family members.
If one of my family members were to get into financial difficulty....I would be there for them..... to assist in filling out the necessary paperwork for any government social/welfare benefits that they are entitled to.
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Meanwhile, his siblings (both in their 30s) don't work, still live at home, and his parents pay for their brand new cars (we drive a 1998 and a 2005, both of which we bought used and paid cash for), their clothes, their food. When the fiance (also unemployed and living with my in-laws) of one of the siblings complains that they didn't buy enough of his favorite soda that month, they run out to the store to buy more.
That is incredible. Surely your husbands parents must realize that their children will eventually have to fend for themselves when they are no longer around? Hopefully they don't use your husband in the future. It's amazing the stories I hear about the dynamics of different families, you just can't make this stuff up I guess.
It may even backfire -- people can act badly when they believe there's money that they can access.
......
Conclusion: Neither relative appreciated the help. Family relationships can not & should not be purchased.
In a perfect world, relationships between family would be unconditional, not depending on how much financial support you give. It's almost as if you get punished for being the responsible one.
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The dynamics of Asian family relationship culture with money never ceases to amaze me. Experiencing it firsthand, as Argyle said it really seems like a "find the patsy" game to use cultural expectations to con successful children out of their money through guilt about reparations for the struggle that was raising them, and then taking that money and turning right around dishing it out in a fanciful showing to whomever they want to attempt to impress be it family & friends & the world that THEY made it. I mean look how successful they are! They can afford to pay your sis's student loans and your brother's car (pay no attention to that man behind the curtain handing us the cash that we hand out).
As others noted, cut them off after 1 final payment. No amount of money is ever enough, as you've already found out. You can always come up with a little more, right? If only you loved your parents as much as you should for all they've done for you, you could start paying them the $1,000 they deserve for raising you, instead of the paltry insulting $700 you're coming up with now.
Quick and to the point -- "I know you appreciate the financial help I've been able to gift you these past XX months, but as I settle down in (new area), I need to start saving my income for [insert life milestone like a house, grad school, dowry, whatever]". Any resistance, feel free to follow up with "Hopefully you haven't come to rely on my temporary financial help for your lifestyle needs. (Sis) and (Brother) let me you're in a position to help them out with X & Y, so I'm confident my not being able to gift you $700 a month isn't going to impact your needs, right?". Notice the keywords -- temporary, financial help, my income, been able to gift you, your parents needs (not wants). Unless you borrowed a boatload of money from them for tuition or whatever, you don't owe them shit. Repeat again. YOU. DON'T. OWE. THEM. SHIT. Gifts freely given, gifts freely not given.
Unfortunately I'd also highly recommend keeping any future successes in your career to yourself. Again, firsthand experiences, any wonderful promotions or better jobs in your career horizon that boost your earnings will likely be met with a renewed desire of your parents to discuss the reparations, er, support you can now afford to offer them in light of your better financial footing.
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Thanks for being so blunt AH013, needed to hear something to look at this objectively. I brought it up with my brother today that he needs to start paying for his own things. He said that my parents don't let him pay for his car insurance, cellphone bill, etc, (not sure if that is true) but I will bring this up next time I give my parents a check. I have not seen my sister yet but when I do I will bring up the same.
If the case really is that my parents are not letting my siblings pay for their own stuff (I really don't know) then I have a lot to work with, it will be easy to say that they don't need the money and if they are just going to hand it away then I do not need to give them any more checks as they are clearly not struggling.
I can predict that it won't go well but I can't let that hold me back. They always mention that I should be saving money and I'll let them know that I can do a pretty good job saving on my own and hope to save for a down-payment.
It is too bad that I should not be so open about any future raises or job changes with my family. I might tell them that I got a slight raise if I ever do get a higher paying job, but I won't disclose the entire amount, it will lead to a slippery slope of me being able to afford more. Of course if I withhold any larger earnings from them they will be disappointed in that I don't make a lot of money but whatever.
Some people will probably never be able to please their parents as much as they wish, so it's best that I just accept that now.
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My poor sister:(
She is 25, has three kids under 4, is burden by about 15K in debt (includes college debt), and has a $13 dollar an hour job.
It pains me to see my sister living under the poverty line. I try to help as much as I can, but she also has to feel the pain of her mistakes.
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It is too bad that I should not be so open about any future raises or job changes with my family. I might tell them that I got a slight raise if I ever do get a higher paying job, but I won't disclose the entire amount, it will lead to a slippery slope of me being able to afford more. Of course if I withhold any larger earnings from them they will be disappointed in that I don't make a lot of money but whatever.
For what it's worth, my parents don't know a thing about my paycheck, other than that it's enough to support me. Focus on non-monetary career achievements, and they can be proud of you WITHOUT money being an issue. If you get a promotion, focus on your new responsibilities and the faith that the company is putting in you - not on the dollar amount of your paycheck.
It's really none of their business, and there's plenty more to be proud of than just the money.
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It sounds like you are still seeking the approval of your parents, by your job, by how much you make or how much of a breadwinner you are. That is playing their game. They should be proud of you that you are an adult and can support yourself. Anything else is a bonus. I wouldn't necessarily share a lot of financial information with them, it's really not their business. You need to develop past needing to impress your parents to fully separate, just focus on improving your life in the direction you want and being productive, and having a healthy relationship with your family. Them seeing you as financial life support, is not a healthy relationship.
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If your parents can't afford their lifestyle they need to see this sooner rather then later. They can downsize their home, etc. You did not ask to be born-it was their decision. I would give them one last check & then tell them you need to save $ for your retirement & down payment on condo. Then don't ask any further questions & use "the broken record" method. Just keep repeating until they get sick of it. Good luck!