Random thought on knowing coworkers' salaries

[boyerbt]

This morning on my way into work the topic on the radio was how knowing what your coworkers’ salary or pay rate is can affect how people get along and work together. I’m sure almost everyone on the site knows of someone who makes way too much money for the little work that he/she contributes but that is for another topic at another time.

After listening to the radio for a few minutes I realized that after learning about MMM and changing my overall thought process about possessions or “keeping up with the Joneses” that this topic is not an issue for me. Obviously I want to continue to progress in my career and increase my earnings but knowing other peoples’ incomes whether higher or lower than mine no longer affects me. If anything, I get a little kick out of hearing people around the office talk about whether or not they can afford something when I know that they make a substantial amount more than I do and that I could afford that item/trip/experience because I don’t purchase everything under the sun or advertised on TV.

TL:DR - Knowing coworkers compensation no longer affects me as I am happy with where I am at financially and my overall goals thanks to MMM.

Does anyone else feel the same way - What are your thoughts?

[DeskJockey2028]

I've pretty much stopped worrying/thinking about this as well.

My big problem now is that my two other co-workers are in their late 20's and I have to restrain myself from lecturing on the FIRE lifestyle. :)

[Slee_stack]

I think I'm more towards letting everyone know everything.

While not perfect, this should tend to reward folks more for merit than for tenure (or some other random reason).

Ultimately, do I add more or less value?  Pay me accordingly.  Its not 'keeping up with the Jones', its maximizing my own take home.

Obviously, keeping salaries secrets is of greater overall benefit to the employer.  That translates to lower salary costs.

From a shareholder perspective, I of course would prefer to keep the secret!

[2buttons]

I worked in an area where everyone's salaries were public. At first you go through a process of jealousy, or entitlement, but once you realize that everyone is different, and some people are better at negotiating it makes you think more inwardly about your work and your approach toward your employer. 

I also find that mostly, not always, the longer the time horizon the quicker things work themselves out in more of a just manner. More importantly, worrying about other people's salaries is a distraction from advancing your own. Good to know, but nothing to spend too much time on.

[markbike528CBX]

Post salaries on a whiteboard before a HR management visit, and watch the horror on HR's face.
       (Just for fun)

I too don't care that much.   Most of my colleagues would probably prefer that my salary was minimal, as they (correctly) assume I'm FI, I really don't work that hard, and they have expensive lifestyles or loads of kids.

[Inaya]

Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xH7eGFuSYI

[Greenroller]

^exactly ( to video above)! My husband and I net in college, we have the exact same degree, same work experience ( I honestly have a bit more) have worked for several of the same companies yet he is always offered more $ than me. It irks me a lot. I always try to negotiate for more $ but somehow the cap they give woman is lower than a man's. Super annoying.

[Giro]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!! 

[mak1277]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.

This is absolutely true, and it's also based on a person's previous salary.  If I'm hiring two people for the same position and one is currently making $40k and one is making $50k, the one making $50k right now is going to get a higher offer from me, even if they are equally qualified.

[dougules]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.

This is absolutely true, and it's also based on a person's previous salary.  If I'm hiring two people for the same position and one is currently making $40k and one is making $50k, the one making $50k right now is going to get a higher offer from me, even if they are equally qualified.

+1  I think a change in culture about openly discussing salaries would be a big benefit to the majority of workers and would probably go along way to reducing the gender pay gap. 

[asauer]

I was a huge advocate for my company being transparent about what everyone makes.  For me it's more about consistency and honesty.  Anything that's a "black box" process fosters mistrust.  At first the leadership team freaked out...mainly b/c it forced them to examine some of the existing inequities and *gasp* actually TALK to employees about why they're in the salary band that they're in.  After 2 years, we implemented and the first 6 months was a big adjustment but after that, people were VERY supportive.  Additionally, salary adjustment discussions have been so much less fraught with politics. 

[Lunasol]

I can relate to this topic a lot, since a coworker and I started on this job on the exact same day, just different areas within the same department, and last year he got a promotion after negotiating to leave, and guess what, it worked for him.

I only learned what happened after a few months later, and it made me realize what I was doing, what I needed to improve, and what I wanted to do with my career and life in general. It sometimes felt discouraging and unfair, but most often than not I was fine because I trusted my abilities, after that I talked to my manager and her boss and none could offer me anything.

I'm still in the same job, but I've been looking for jobs for the past few months and I have an interview next Tuesday, for a much better position with a 40% pay increase. Wish me luck!

[skekses]

Since I work in accounting, at times I've been privy to other people's salaries. I learned to be dead to it and treat salaries as if they were mere numbers and not as a benchmark for my own status. Others with similar access did use that information as a personal benchmark, generally to the negative. Others with accidental access also used it as a benchmark, again as a negative. Mind you, the people that I've worked with were on the younger end and therefore more likely to be at the low end of the salary spectrum. I suppose if you saw you were doing relatively well, then you'd feel good about it.

For example, apparently when I started at my latest job, someone brilliantly left my salary information on a coworker's desk. There was enough of a difference between our amounts that my coworker became obsessed about the disparity. She attempted negotiations, but all they would give were paltry bumps that did nothing to close the gap.

I'd be curious to know from those who have open workplaces about such things if disparities do still exist and if they do then are people comfortable or angry about it? Also, does everyone end up getting the same raises despite varying amounts of talent/effort?

[Lanthiriel]

I work in a position where I have to send rates to clients fairly often, so I see everyone's salary. It's helped me a lot in being able to talk about what I'm worth. It's also helpful to know that I'm being paid pretty competitively for this firm at least.

I agree that women are not great at negotiating salary. Through a change to a different firm and a promotion at that firm, I've raised my salary by 55% in the last 2.5 years. I was feeling pretty proud of myself until I was trying to hire someone under me into my department, but she was making $5k more than I am at her current job...

[JLee]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

[Milizard]

The secrecy only serves the company so that it can get away with paying someone less than it is willing to pay others for comparable work.  It is unfair, and yes, it does matter when tenths of a % matter in returns and $10 saved matters in accumulating a stash.

[asauer]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

[JLee]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

[Chris22]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more. 

In my experience this isn't true.  My experience has been that employers will gladly throw silly money on top of silly money to get a person in the door, and then fight tooth and nail to keep from increasing anyone inside the company when promotion/raise time comes along.  I have been told I can't hire an internal, well-qualified, highly-rated candidate currently making $60k, for, say, $85k, because it would be "too big of an increase" but go ahead and hire any dipshit off the street for $95k because hey, why the fuck not?

[Hall11235]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

One of my college professors (my degrees are in History and Education) (this was in an Ed class where I was, as usual, the only boy) used to tell all the girls regularly that if they wanted something, they should demand it. She would say, "When men press for something, they don't leave till they get what they want. You ladies? You need to make sure that the person knows that it is NOT ok for you to not have it. Don't walk out the door till you have what YOU want." She was probably talking about the supplies closet at school, but it seems relevant for salary discussions, too.

[nawhite]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

 If a company is a dick about requiring a number, I switch to "Total compensation" numbers. My "total compensation" at my current employer includes salary, vacation time, sick time, health insurance premium discount, 401k match, travel allowances, equipment loans for tech (value of the laptop, screens, etc, amortized over 3 years), etc which ends up being a whole lot higher than your salary. To some low level HR person they just need a number. When you say "my total compensation package was around $X" they're happy because they got a number to put in the box, you're happy because you listed a number 30% higher than your current salary without lying.

[Chris22]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

 If a company is a dick about requiring a number, I switch to "Total compensation" numbers. My "total compensation" at my current employer includes salary, vacation time, sick time, health insurance premium discount, 401k match, travel allowances, equipment loans for tech (value of the laptop, screens, etc, amortized over 3 years), etc which ends up being a whole lot higher than your salary. To some low level HR person they just need a number. When you say "my total compensation package was around $X" they're happy because they got a number to put in the box, you're happy because you listed a number 30% higher than your current salary without lying.

Or you completely eliminate yourself by pricing yourself at 10-29% above market....

[NoVa]

I don't really care what other people make. Some could have been hired in a tight labor market, others may have been grateful to take this job over whatever situation they came from, etc. Everyone makes their own deal. As a policy I can see both sides of this.

I am curious, the companies who demand to know your current salary, are these companies publishing the salaries of their own employees? Or are they just trying to grab a competitive edge on hiring as cheaply as possible? It would seem disingenuous to demand salary on the one hand but not give it on the other.

jfolsen

[MMMarbleheader]

I work for a large national company. They don't try to hide that they have salary levels/grades much like the federal government. I am able to see what people make and have been pretty impressed with how consistent it is. There are a few people you question why they have made it to the level they are at but overall it is pretty consistent. This company is unique though in that they only started hiring outside of entry level only a few years ago. Most employees started as interns and retire with the company, including the current ceo. To have such a small attrition rate I guess they need to be consistent with compensation.

[Crusader]

In my first full time position I regularly asked around. Granted we all basically earned the same so discussing how much we made was something we used to complain about the job. It was $15/hour with benefits as an IT contractor in DC. Then I hopped to a Temp contract job as a Tier 2 Software Support Technician for $25/hour no benefits. We were all temp contractors at the site and we all complained and traded pay information for how much the recruiters were paying us and billing us out at. After that ended I am currently at a $26/hour no benefit basically infinite term contract at the internal IT Service Desk of the same company. I asked about everyone's pay and people seem fairly open about it because of being contractors. The full timers also seem pretty open to telling people when asked because the contractors want to know what they get when they convert.

[Blonde Lawyer]

I definitely negotiate hard for myself.  If I can't negotiate for myself, who would want to hire me to negotiate for clients.  However, there is a lot of compelling research out there that women who negotiate or ask for raises are viewed negatively by their male superiors.  Instead of being seen as ambitious and determined they are seen as shrill, bitchy, aggressive, annoying, arrogant.  You have to somehow be a chipper cheerleader while self advocating and stroke the boss' ego enough too.  Regardless of how you feel about politics, I cracked up when I heard Hillary once described as "too ambitious."  Have you ever heard of a man, who hoped to someday be president, called "too ambitious?" Anyway, my point is, we shouldn't always fault women for not negotiating when many of them have had very negative results for doing so.

Even though I've had good luck, I still had one boss act personally hurt and offended when I suggested I should be paid more money.  Like he was doing me a favor by paying me what I was already being paid.  I still got the money but I think my relationship with that boss ended up somewhat damaged by asking for more.

[JLee]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

 If a company is a dick about requiring a number, I switch to "Total compensation" numbers. My "total compensation" at my current employer includes salary, vacation time, sick time, health insurance premium discount, 401k match, travel allowances, equipment loans for tech (value of the laptop, screens, etc, amortized over 3 years), etc which ends up being a whole lot higher than your salary. To some low level HR person they just need a number. When you say "my total compensation package was around $X" they're happy because they got a number to put in the box, you're happy because you listed a number 30% higher than your current salary without lying.

I was talking with the VP of HR and his assistant. The total comp here is actually pretty awesome - much, much better than my last place.  That's the only negative aspect of my entire process...if they had given me the same offer they had without demanding my previous salary, I wouldn't have been so annoyed.  I just feel like I was lowballed because I was underpaid at my last job.

That is a great suggestion, though, and one that may serve me very well when I eventually move on from my current place!

[WSUCoug1994]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

 If a company is a dick about requiring a number, I switch to "Total compensation" numbers. My "total compensation" at my current employer includes salary, vacation time, sick time, health insurance premium discount, 401k match, travel allowances, equipment loans for tech (value of the laptop, screens, etc, amortized over 3 years), etc which ends up being a whole lot higher than your salary. To some low level HR person they just need a number. When you say "my total compensation package was around $X" they're happy because they got a number to put in the box, you're happy because you listed a number 30% higher than your current salary without lying.

I was talking with the VP of HR and his assistant. The total comp here is actually pretty awesome - much, much better than my last place.  That's the only negative aspect of my entire process...if they had given me the same offer they had without demanding my previous salary, I wouldn't have been so annoyed.  I just feel like I was lowballed because I was underpaid at my last job.

That is a great suggestion, though, and one that may serve me very well when I eventually move on from my current place!

IMO - these are some of the worst suggestions for negotiating salaries/discussing compensation that I have heard and I have been an Executive Recruiter for 20+ years and I have heard a lot.  If you think that deception is the best way to start out an employee/employer relationship you are mis-informed.  If you think that this "new" company is responsible for dealing with your issues of being under-compensated you are crazy.  If you think that requesting this information makes them ass-holes you are confused.  You expect transparency from the company but your don't expect it from yourself?  That is insane.  You think that walking away makes you the winner?  I likely see it the other way around. 

[ender]

Any time a recruiter/application asks for salary expectations or previous salary, I just ask point blank, "what is the pay range and benefits breakdown for the position? I can let you know whether we're in the right ballpark."

Not everyone likes it, but hey, our goals are different. You want to screw me over by asking for previous salary/expectations? I'll ask the question that matters and answer what you really need to know - whether we can find a number both agree on. If the recruiter/manager doesn't like that? Tough, information is a two way street.

Recruiters/companies want my skills, I want their money. My skills are pretty constant but the money they can offer is much more fluid. Keeping my current salary information private to the company only hurts them in the negotiation. As much as it's a desire for "win-win" the reality is that winning condition is different for employee/employer. Employers want to hire you and keep you. You want to make as much as they will pay you.

IMO - these are some of the worst suggestions for negotiating salaries/discussing compensation that I have heard and I have been an Executive Recruiter for 20+ years and I have heard a lot.  If you think that deception is the best way to start out an employee/employer relationship you are mis-informed.  If you think that this "new" company is responsible for dealing with your issues of being under-compensated you are crazy.  If you think that requesting this information makes them ass-holes you are confused.  You expect transparency from the company but your don't expect it from yourself?  That is insane.  You think that walking away makes you the winner?  I likely see it the other way around.

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

[JLee]

Salaries are kept secret because it benefits employers.  I have hired nearly 100 people over the past 5 years and I can tell you with certainty that employers pay what they have to in order to secure the employee and not a penny more.  Women are the worst negotiators BY FAR.  It helped me personally because I know what I'm worth and I know that if I don't ask for it, I won't get it.  All women need to know that.  They need to study the market rates for their positions and negotiate!!

My current company refused to give me an offer until I told them what I made at my last job.  I was angry enough that if it hadn't been a huge career leap for me, I probably would've told them it's none of their business.

I'm and HR professional and have NEVER given out that info.  I say "I'm looking for x so that will be the number we discuss going forward."  If they push (which most do), I say in a light tone "My accountant would kill me if she found out I disclosed personal financial information.  I'm sure you understand.  But as I'm looking for "x" amount, this will be a solid number for us to discuss."  The "personal financial information" usually gets them off of my back.  I've only had two companies who were ass-holes about it and you know what- if they're not going to respect boundaries for that, what other boundaries will they violate?

I will have to keep that in mind for the future. I should probably have held out longer - they brought me in $28k/yr lower than what my inside source (i.e. manager's boss) told me to ask for.

 If a company is a dick about requiring a number, I switch to "Total compensation" numbers. My "total compensation" at my current employer includes salary, vacation time, sick time, health insurance premium discount, 401k match, travel allowances, equipment loans for tech (value of the laptop, screens, etc, amortized over 3 years), etc which ends up being a whole lot higher than your salary. To some low level HR person they just need a number. When you say "my total compensation package was around $X" they're happy because they got a number to put in the box, you're happy because you listed a number 30% higher than your current salary without lying.

I was talking with the VP of HR and his assistant. The total comp here is actually pretty awesome - much, much better than my last place.  That's the only negative aspect of my entire process...if they had given me the same offer they had without demanding my previous salary, I wouldn't have been so annoyed.  I just feel like I was lowballed because I was underpaid at my last job.

That is a great suggestion, though, and one that may serve me very well when I eventually move on from my current place!

IMO - these are some of the worst suggestions for negotiating salaries/discussing compensation that I have heard and I have been an Executive Recruiter for 20+ years and I have heard a lot.  If you think that deception is the best way to start out an employee/employer relationship you are mis-informed.  If you think that this "new" company is responsible for dealing with your issues of being under-compensated you are crazy.  If you think that requesting this information makes them ass-holes you are confused.  You expect transparency from the company but your don't expect it from yourself?  That is insane.  You think that walking away makes you the winner?  I likely see it the other way around.

Why is my previous salary relevant to my salary at a new company?  Why is it fair for them to ask me what I want, for me to tell them what I want, and then for them to demand to know what I make now at my current employer before providing a counter-offer to the number I already provided?

[mm1970]

I definitely negotiate hard for myself.  If I can't negotiate for myself, who would want to hire me to negotiate for clients.  However, there is a lot of compelling research out there that women who negotiate or ask for raises are viewed negatively by their male superiors.  Instead of being seen as ambitious and determined they are seen as shrill, bitchy, aggressive, annoying, arrogant.  You have to somehow be a chipper cheerleader while self advocating and stroke the boss' ego enough too.  Regardless of how you feel about politics, I cracked up when I heard Hillary once described as "too ambitious."  Have you ever heard of a man, who hoped to someday be president, called "too ambitious?" Anyway, my point is, we shouldn't always fault women for not negotiating when many of them have had very negative results for doing so.

Even though I've had good luck, I still had one boss act personally hurt and offended when I suggested I should be paid more money.  Like he was doing me a favor by paying me what I was already being paid.  I still got the money but I think my relationship with that boss ended up somewhat damaged by asking for more.

Very good points here

[BlueHouse]

Any time a recruiter/application asks for salary expectations or previous salary, I just ask point blank, "what is the pay range and benefits breakdown for the position? I can let you know whether we're in the right ballpark."

Not everyone likes it, but hey, our goals are different. You want to screw me over by asking for previous salary/expectations? I'll ask the question that matters and answer what you really need to know - whether we can find a number both agree on. If the recruiter/manager doesn't like that? Tough, information is a two way street.

Recruiters/companies want my skills, I want their money. My skills are pretty constant but the money they can offer is much more fluid. Keeping my current salary information private to the company only hurts them in the negotiation. As much as it's a desire for "win-win" the reality is that winning condition is different for employee/employer. Employers want to hire you and keep you. You want to make as much as they will pay you.

IMO - these are some of the worst suggestions for negotiating salaries/discussing compensation that I have heard and I have been an Executive Recruiter for 20+ years and I have heard a lot.  If you think that deception is the best way to start out an employee/employer relationship you are mis-informed.  If you think that this "new" company is responsible for dealing with your issues of being under-compensated you are crazy.  If you think that requesting this information makes them ass-holes you are confused.  You expect transparency from the company but your don't expect it from yourself?  That is insane.  You think that walking away makes you the winner?  I likely see it the other way around.

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Very well said ender.  Every word of what you've said here is true.

[thd7t]

Very interesting thread. I have recently moved to a state job. All salaries are public and positions are advertised with a salary range. I love the transparency.

[Chris22]

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them. 

[JLee]

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

I'm not sure about that - if that were the case, nobody would change jobs.

[ender]

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

I've never actually asked a hiring manager for that information (nor would I recommend someone do so). It's a thought exercise response to the implication not wanting to give your salary to someone is somehow "deception" but the company doing the same thing to a candidate is somehow fair and reasonable.

[Chris22]

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

I'm not sure about that - if that were the case, nobody would change jobs.

A company needs employees.  Except in very specific instances, they don't need YOU as that employee.  If you raise a big stink about not telling them your salary, they'll move on to the next best candidate behind you. 

[ender]

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

Accepting this statement is why so many people get into crappy work situations and allow their employers to basically abuse them. It's why so many consider it "ok" for companies to do everything possible to take advantage of their employees. Afterall, the company is doing the employee a service and giving them the opportunity to work there, right? I should be deep with gratitude for the chance to make the company more money be generously given a paycheck.

If all the non-C level employees at my company quit, it would fall apart quickly (just like many, many companies would).

Employees make the company money. The company is able to offer jobs because it has employees who, on average, make the company money, more than they cost it. The more employees realize this, the better working conditions, pay, and benefits they will receive.

I am not drinking from a fountain of unbridled goodness and blessing that a company so graciously and selflessly offers me when I go to work.

A company needs employees.  Except in very specific instances, they don't need YOU as that employee.  If you raise a big stink about not telling them your salary, they'll move on to the next best candidate behind you.

Sure. That's fair - but if a company application process is so rigid and firm that it requires knowing my previous salary and considers this more important than finding the right candidate based on their skillset, it strongly suggests to me I would not be happy there.

[Chris22]

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

Accepting this statement is why so many people get into crappy work situations and allow their employers to basically abuse them. It's why so many consider it "ok" for companies to do everything possible to take advantage of their employees. Afterall, the company is doing the employee a service and giving them the opportunity to work there, right? I should be deep with gratitude for the chance to make the company more money be generously given a paycheck.

If all the non-C level employees at my company quit, it would fall apart quickly (just like many, many companies would).

Employees make the company money. The company is able to offer jobs because it has employees who, on average, make the company money, more than they cost it. The more employees realize this, the better working conditions, pay, and benefits they will receive.

I am not drinking from a fountain of unbridled goodness and blessing that a company so graciously and selflessly offers me when I go to work.

And honestly, not to be a shill for them, that's where a good recruiter can help you in determining your value on the open market.  I am working with several right now.  I have a pretty clear range of what I'm worth.  It's about 10% more than my current compensation, which is what I'm seeking, and that's what I'll honestly reply with when I interview if asked.  "I make x, but in order to consider a move, I'd need to make at least Y."  Assuming X and Y are not ridiculously far apart, no one gets ruffled by that.  They anticipate paying switching costs.  But if you get in a huff and start making demands of them and obfuscate and start rolling everything under the sun into your pay, who do you think is going to win?  Them, or you?

A company needs employees.  Except in very specific instances, they don't need YOU as that employee.  If you raise a big stink about not telling them your salary, they'll move on to the next best candidate behind you.

Sure. That's fair - but if a company application process is so rigid and firm that it requires knowing my previous salary and considers this more important than finding the right candidate based on their skillset, it strongly suggests to me I would not be happy there.

Possible.  On the other hand, most of your day to day life is going to be affected by your management and your immediate leadership.  In a company of any size, the hiring, at least the initial part, is handled by the (likely) far off HR team, who are probably going to have little real impact on your job once you actually start. 

[JLee]

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

Accepting this statement is why so many people get into crappy work situations and allow their employers to basically abuse them. It's why so many consider it "ok" for companies to do everything possible to take advantage of their employees. Afterall, the company is doing the employee a service and giving them the opportunity to work there, right? I should be deep with gratitude for the chance to make the company more money be generously given a paycheck.

If all the non-C level employees at my company quit, it would fall apart quickly (just like many, many companies would).

Employees make the company money. The company is able to offer jobs because it has employees who, on average, make the company money, more than they cost it. The more employees realize this, the better working conditions, pay, and benefits they will receive.

I am not drinking from a fountain of unbridled goodness and blessing that a company so graciously and selflessly offers me when I go to work.

I agree 100%.

Shortly after I started my IT career (very entry level, Sept 2012) I became friends with one of our field engineers who had a few years experience on me.  I had come from a union/government job where I was paid for overtime and was generally treated fairly - entering the IT world, for a company that routinely expected their salaried employees to work/travel 5-6, sometimes 7 days a week (at 50-60 hours) without compensation was a bit of a shock. Our salaries were not adjusted to compensate for this either; we were generally paid below general market value. The tradeoff was it was a small company with an immense amount of learning opportunity, so a few years there would give you much more experience than you'd get in most places.

So, this guy tells me that 50hr weeks are just the way it is, and if you don't do it then they'll just hire someone else who will.  I was promoted into a salaried role in mid-2014 and made sure to track my hours and take comp time if I worked too far past 40.  I got to the point where I'd just tell my boss 'hey I worked XYZ extra on ABC days so I'm going to take X off as a comp day." I never caught flak for it, was never denied, and got promoted again (5th promotion in under 3 years).  On my 3yr anniversary, I accepted a job with my current company, increasing my salary by over 60% and doubling my vacation time.

My friend who insists that 50+hr weeks are normal and "you have to deal with it if you want the job" is still at the same place, now making less than I do (while he has 2-3x the time in this field).

tldr; the reason employers get away with shit is because the employees think they don't have options.

[Sailor Sam]

As a recruiter, would you be willing to tell candidates what everyone in the position a candidate is applying for makes?

"Deception" goes two ways. But in your world, corporate sponsored deception/power-games are 100% ok but a candidate not wanting to share unrelated personal information is not.

If a company gives me the full pay range and benefits breakdown for a req I apply to and what everyone currently in that role makes, I'll gladly share my current salary information. I've no problem being transparent if a company is transparent. But you seem to not realize what transparency looks like - transparency is not candidates volunteering salary expectations/current salary and receiving nothing from the company which eventually results in the company spitting out a single number to the candidate.

Unless you have a very specific set of rare skills, your point may be valid from a "fairness" perspective, but as a hiring manager, I'll just write you off as a pain in the ass and hire someone who is more readily willing to play the game.  Most of the time you need to accept that a company needs you less than you need them.

I'm not sure about that - if that were the case, nobody would change jobs.

A company needs employees.  Except in very specific instances, they don't need YOU as that employee.  If you raise a big stink about not telling them your salary, they'll move on to the next best candidate behind you.

I agree with ender. If all the high performers walked out today, my department would collapse. I could repair the hemorrhage by hiring new performers, but it would still take 6-12 months for the department to regain the same level of expertise. As a supervisor, I do more to keep the performers happy, because I recognize that I need them more than they need me. There's a lot of power in being good at something.

Original point, I work for the military section of the U.S. government. I know everyone's salary, and everyone knows mine. I like this system, and if I ever start my own business I'll institute the same sort of transparency. 

[ender]

And honestly, not to be a shill for them, that's where a good recruiter can help you in determining your value on the open market.  I am working with several right now.  I have a pretty clear range of what I'm worth.  It's about 10% more than my current compensation, which is what I'm seeking, and that's what I'll honestly reply with when I interview if asked.  "I make x, but in order to consider a move, I'd need to make at least Y."  Assuming X and Y are not ridiculously far apart, no one gets ruffled by that.  They anticipate paying switching costs.  But if you get in a huff and start making demands of them and obfuscate and start rolling everything under the sun into your pay, who do you think is going to win?  Them, or you?

I think you are reading a lot into how I ask this sort of question. Get in a huff? Making demands? Obfuscating things?

No, I ask what the pay range to a position is when asked about salary expectations or current pay. There are many ways to ask questions and not all of them are "give me the information. now. or I walk." I have as of yet never not received the range of the position I am applying for (or being contacted by recruiters about) so I guess I am good with words.

[Chris22]

I agree with ender. If all the high performers walked out today, my department would collapse.

Obviously, but that's a different scenario than the one we were discussing, which was about trying to obtain a job with a company.  Retaining current talent is different.

[JLee]

I agree with ender. If all the high performers walked out today, my department would collapse.

Obviously, but that's a different scenario than the one we were discussing, which was about trying to obtain a job with a company.  Retaining current talent is different.

It's not all that different, because if you want to hire a high performer who's otherwise happy where they are, you need incentive to get them. 

[Sailor Sam]

I agree with ender. If all the high performers walked out today, my department would collapse.

Obviously, but that's a different scenario than the one we were discussing, which was about trying to obtain a job with a company.  Retaining current talent is different.

I was responding to the bolded foamy bit, about whether a company needs a specific You, or just a general warm body you. I meant my response to address both recruitment and retention, but I see now that it could be read as skewed towards retention, without addressing recruitment. My bad, as they say.

[Fred2004]

Interesting.

I was a pricing analyst and had access to thousands of people's pay...it was interesting to see the pay bands that existed.

Some people were WAY outside a 20% band (above usually, but rare).

Usually employers ask current pay, I always give it assuming they can probably find it out anyway and hoping to not waste my time.  why would you even consider a position that is way less than your expectation?  There could be reasons, but not many.

As for me, I was in the odd position of applying for a job that was a step down that would be in FL vs CA and I was willing to take a 20% hit in pay and no relo (single)...despite these concessions, they hired someone with less experience and changed the position to a lower grade.  Why?  Who knows.

I'm assuming you are all familiar with bands.

Example:
Engineer II can make 100k a year...with people in that band making anywhere from 80k to 120k based on their years w/ company, experience etc.

I'm for transparency in pay.  It is nice to know people are being "fairly" compensated, but does suck when you find out a co-worker that sleeps in their cubicle is making 20% more than you only because they have sat in the chair for a few  years more than you.

It also sucks to read your companies 10k (if it is public) and find out the CEO got a 100k raise to stay in line w/ the market (increase from 750 to 850k, excluding other compensation that totals 4-8M depending on performance of the company) only to find out that promotion that they with-held $2k from me on is pissed away on tons of frivolous expenses.

[WSUCoug1994]

I agree that the information exchange must go both ways.  I have no idea why someone would interview for a job when they don't know the pay range.  I would never work for a client that doesn't share the compensation range - for one that is how I get paid and secondly I have no way to screen for the right people and third it is a total waste of time - compensation is a major driver for change.  I also don't understand why people who know the pay range - yet still interview when they are above it - because they think they are a special case and should be above the law and then get upset when their expectations aren't met (this happens a lot). 

I don't understand why people believe that their value is so much higher than their current wage.  Either they have made some really bad career decisions or they lack self-awareness or maybe both.  This is a market - just like any market - people get paid what they are worth to the company.  There are a few exceptions of course, like in any market, but some people have better access, network, relationships or negotiation skills.  Timing and Luck have a lot to do with it as well.

One of the most frustrating aspects of compensation, which was mentioned earlier, is this internal/external candidate compensation.  I fight this as a Managing Partner of my company as well as with my clients.  This is one of the weirdest corporate anomalies I have seen.  You can't pay the internal guy $80K but you can pay the external guy $95K.  It makes me lose my mind.

As many people have demonstrated, job hopping (particularly for compensation) is a real thing.  It has it's advantages and its disadvantages.  I personally don't believe it is a good long term career strategy but a lot of people follow it.  It depends on what your end goal really is.

The employment market is a dynamic and fascinating one to watch.  There are entitlement problems on both sides - we have candidate driven markets and we have company driven markets.  There are people whose skills are in-demand and those that are no longer needed.  I think that has a lot to do with how people view their employment.  Some feel they can do what they want and when they want and if they don't get it they just leave and find another job because their skills are so in-demand.  There are others that are simply trapped, with fewer options, who "feel" that they need to work 80 hours a week for 40 hours of pay.  Darwinism at play.  The ability to evolve and change is so critical in terms of maintaining relevance to employers.

In almost every study - compensation is the third most important factor they consider in making career decisions.  It is usually behind the "People" and the Charter/Quality/Impact of the work. 

[big_slacker]

I talk to recruiters a lot. I've found that almost all of them in my field (higher level network engineering) will always give you a ballpark, or at least ask you what you're looking for and let you know if the that fits in the range they've been given for the position.

FWIW you ought to know what you're worth/what you want to make. It's one thing to leave 5-10k on the table negotiating for a 150k/yr job, but if you're asking for 100k or 200k then you have a serious blind spot going on in your career. :D

Per the OP our company has pretty clearly defined levels/pay grades so everyone has a good idea of what everyone else is making.

[mustachepungoeshere]

While I'm happy with our financial situation, I wasn't happy when I recently found a co-worker's payslip on the company server.

He had downloaded it and saved it in a file accessible by all staff. I wasn't happy with the disparity in our salaries (his is higher) given that we basically do the same job.

But it is ammunition when it comes time to next negotiate my salary.

[ender]

I don't understand why people believe that their value is so much higher than their current wage.  Either they have made some really bad career decisions or they lack self-awareness or maybe both.  This is a market - just like any market - people get paid what they are worth to the company.  There are a few exceptions of course, like in any market, but some people have better access, network, relationships or negotiation skills.  Timing and Luck have a lot to do with it as well.

This is answered often by salary progression hampered by this:

One of the most frustrating aspects of compensation, which was mentioned earlier, is this internal/external candidate compensation.  I fight this as a Managing Partner of my company as well as with my clients.  This is one of the weirdest corporate anomalies I have seen.  You can't pay the internal guy $80K but you can pay the external guy $95K.  It makes me lose my mind.

which gets caused by those people believing this:

As many people have demonstrated, job hopping (particularly for compensation) is a real thing.  It has it's advantages and its disadvantages.  I personally don't believe it is a good long term career strategy but a lot of people follow it.  It depends on what your end goal really is.

and made even worse by how often this happens as a result of the above:

It is nice to know people are being "fairly" compensated, but does suck when you find out a co-worker that sleeps in their cubicle is making 20% more than you only because they have sat in the chair for a few  years more than you.