Author Topic: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone  (Read 12494 times)

MrThatsDifferent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2017, 02:06:48 PM »
... And retiring isnít necessarily beneficial for everyone, a large number of men die soon after retiring (women are generally fine), so continuing to work in some capacity is a good thing. ...
That's because women continue to work in the home.  Men generally sit on the couch and watch football while yelling for their wife to bring them a beer.  :)
If I did that, my life expectancy would be short indeed...

LOL. Yes, weíll, that brings up the other interesting thing about the number of divorces after retirement when people learn they actually donít like being around each other 24/7.   But from a gender perspective, women are better off because women donít generally associate their identity with work, they associate identity with family and friends, work is often just a means to an end. Men wrap their entire sense of self up in their work and when it ends, donít know who they are or what to do. Best thing for men is to work part-time, paid or not, doing anything that gives them some sense of purpose. Obviously this doesnít apply to everyone but thereís a reason most retirement centers are filled with women, not men.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4306
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2017, 02:24:28 PM »
I am 63 and retired at 58. Then a year later I was offered a chance to teach an online college course which I love and still do.  I knew the subject matter as it was my career for my life but I had to teach myself the computer program they were using and the first semester it was like having a f.t. job. I took a million notes and it was difficult. The 2nd semester I realized I was doing some things the long and hard way.  Then they changed programs and I thought that would be terrible but actually it was easy because I had learned one it was so easy to learn another.  However, not one of my friends are still working. Most got laid-off from their professional jobs and never were able to get back to work.  Most gave up eventually, adjusted their lifestyles, collected SS and are fine.  Also a few of my friends have left work due to illness or disability and 3 died between 59-67.  So most people won't be able to just keep working.

MrThatsDifferent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2017, 02:26:05 PM »
I donít think saving for early retirement is a luxury anymore. Even if you are ok with the idea of working until you are 70, your employer probably isnít.
You're right, of course, that many people physically can't continue in their jobs after a certain age. 

And I've seen a couple people who are REALLY not up with technology:  The other day I had a quick conversation with the custodian, and he asked me if I'd give him information on something we'd just discussed.  I said, "Sure, write down your email for me."  He took my note pad, looked uncomfortable a minute, then copied down his Employee ID # from his work badge.  I was a little shocked, and rather than tell him he was completely ignorant of a major method of communication these days, I just said, "You know, I think I'll just print it for you."  He looked massively relieved. 

In addition to these items, however, two more reasons we can't realistically all work 'til 70:

- By the time you've reached 50, you're probably making as much money as the company's willing to pay you /as much money as your job can reasonably pay (every job has a value within society).  You're not going to be satisfied staying at the top of the salary scale for two decades, and your boss is going to figure out that he can ditch you and hire two younger workers at the bottom of the salary scale. 
- If we current workers stay in our jobs 'til 70, the younger folks just out of college aren't going to be able to find positions in the work force -- especially with technology taking away some jobs.

With technology and advances in health, 70 will be the new 50, there will be lots of people willing and able to work. Itís actually happening now with the baby boomer generation not really retiring and the millennials feeling squeezed out, thatís only going to continue. Working to 70 doesnt necessarily mean working full-time either. There will be plenty of people working flexibly and if they are older and ok financially but working to stay engaged, then high salaries may not be the main focus. By 2025, 75% of the population will be millennials and younger, what do you think will happen when that group becomes 70 and is as tech savvy as anyone else with 40 years of advances in medicine and health?  Will start to see 100 as the avg lifespan and people will probably work until their 80s.

tipster350

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 173
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2017, 03:25:00 PM »
With technology and advances in health, 70 will be the new 50, there will be lots of people willing and able to work. It’s actually happening now with the baby boomer generation not really retiring and the millennials feeling squeezed out, that’s only going to continue. Working to 70 doesnt necessarily mean working full-time either. There will be plenty of people working flexibly and if they are older and ok financially but working to stay engaged, then high salaries may not be the main focus. By 2025, 75% of the population will be millennials and younger, what do you think will happen when that group becomes 70 and is as tech savvy as anyone else with 40 years of advances in medicine and health?  Will start to see 100 as the avg lifespan and people will probably work until their 80s.


[/quote]

Ummm...not so much https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-23/americans-are-retiring-later-dying-sooner-and-sicker-in-between

MrMoneySaver

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2017, 03:37:27 PM »
Quote
With technology and advances in health, 70 will be the new 50, there will be lots of people willing and able to work. Itís actually happening now with the baby boomer generation not really retiring and the millennials feeling squeezed out, thatís only going to continue. Working to 70 doesnt necessarily mean working full-time either. There will be plenty of people working flexibly and if they are older and ok financially but working to stay engaged, then high salaries may not be the main focus. By 2025, 75% of the population will be millennials and younger, what do you think will happen when that group becomes 70 and is as tech savvy as anyone else with 40 years of advances in medicine and health?  Will start to see 100 as the avg lifespan and people will probably work until their 80s.

What makes you think that millennials will be as tech-savvy as anyone else when they're 70? That's not the natural way of things.

Also, what makes you think people will live to an average of 100?

tipster350

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 173
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2017, 03:44:14 PM »
I'm surprised by how many positive comments this article is generating. As has been mentioned, and she even mentioned it in the article, health issues may force retirement sooner than planned. She says working to 70 may be difficult but not impossible, as if it is all within our control. It is not. You never know when health issues will arise. You can eat well and exercise and increase the odds but that is all.

And as others have mentioned, many are forced out by their employers. Ageism is a very real thing. So is cognitive decline. This is another area one has little control over. I like how she says to look around to see how many 70 year olds are in your company. I have a suggestion: look how many 65 year olds are in your company. Few are wanted. Many retire voluntarily but many don't. They are pushed out.

So how is working until you're 70 a viable plan that you can count on? It isn't. I guess what she is really saying is other than try to keep going and try to get p/t work, the average person who has not or wasn't able to save much just has to try to keep going until SS is at its highest payment at 70. There isn't any choice so cross your fingers to make it to the finish line.

I know several people who are on the retire at 70 track and close to the finish line. Every one of them is miserable and crawling up to the line. They are tired and it is a real fight for them to keep up the pace. But they have no choice because their savings are paltry. When they decided (or circumstances decided for them) to keep working past traditional retirement age, they assumed they would have the energy and tolerance to keep going.

I know many others who were forced out starting at about age 60. Fortunately most of my friends and acquaintances who were forced out were in decent enough shape financially to be able to survive.

Others I know had health issues that forced them out.


sokoloff

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2017, 05:07:15 PM »
What makes you think that millennials will be as tech-savvy as anyone else when they're 70? That's not the natural way of things.
Primacy in learning is a very strong (and positive effect). Millennials grew up in a world where computers were common and since middle school, the internet (for the pedantic, read this as web browsers) was always a thing. When I look at my own parents (70), they don't struggle at all with anything that was learnable through high school. My dad could probably still use a slide rule if you gave him a few minutes to get reacquainted with it.

OTOH, they do struggle sometimes with an iPhone, not because it's complex, but because it's novel (to them) and they have some cognitive load just thinking about how a touch screen works, that they can't hold it with one hand in a front-to-back pinch grip and use the other hand to push the buttons, etc. For all of its simplicity to use, it might as well be a StarTrek communicator to them.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1730
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2017, 05:40:32 PM »
What makes you think that millennials will be as tech-savvy as anyone else when they're 70? That's not the natural way of things.
Primacy in learning is a very strong (and positive effect). Millennials grew up in a world where computers were common and since middle school, the internet (for the pedantic, read this as web browsers) was always a thing. When I look at my own parents (70), they don't struggle at all with anything that was learnable through high school. My dad could probably still use a slide rule if you gave him a few minutes to get reacquainted with it.

OTOH, they do struggle sometimes with an iPhone, not because it's complex, but because it's novel (to them) and they have some cognitive load just thinking about how a touch screen works, that they can't hold it with one hand in a front-to-back pinch grip and use the other hand to push the buttons, etc. For all of its simplicity to use, it might as well be a StarTrek communicator to them.

I wonder about this in myself.  I perceive myself to to learn tech things perfectly well, but only if I have a compelling reason to learn them. I'm not really interested in them for themselves, but only as a means to an end.  E.g., although I actually was one the first of my peer group to log substantive time on some of the early pcs, I didn't need to know how to use them until the mid 1990s, when the personal computer became ubiquitous and the internet developed.  When I needed to learn Windows in college, I learned it. I never touched an Apple product from 1989 until 2009, when I bought an ipod that I dearly loved.  So far, it's the only Apple or touch-screen product that I've tried and liked at all, which is irritating because touchscreen is becoming the rage now.  The question is: could I learn to be comfortable with touchscreen in most forms and even to prefer it IF I had to (for work, etc.)?  Presumably.

I guess we'll know one day when I finally break down and get a smart phone.  Hopefully not for at least 5 more years or whenever they quit making the little flip phones.  I still haven't switched to streaming tv/movies, either, and likely won't until Netflix phases out their hard-dvd mailing program.

When it comes down to it, I guess I'm a consistent late/never adopter of most of the modern tech products.  I'm no luddite, just see no pressing need for most of it. I have never had to build a website, I've never used Outlook or one of those automated calendar and email programs, I've never even SEEN Twitter or a lot of the internet stuff that people talk about, I wouldn't know an "app" if it bit me on the butt, etc. (Side note: what is the difference between an app and a regular software program?)

I've gone 25 years assuming "I'll learn [that new tech thingy] if and when I need it, which is quite possibly never because tech changes so fast" and it's been fine. On the other hand I've not been looking for jobs that focus on tech applications.  Still, I wonder if I'm fooling myself and I really would NOT pick up new stuff as quickly as younger people, given that we were both starting on a new 'tech thing'...

MrMoneySaver

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2017, 06:08:40 PM »
What makes you think that millennials will be as tech-savvy as anyone else when they're 70? That's not the natural way of things.
Primacy in learning is a very strong (and positive effect). Millennials grew up in a world where computers were common and since middle school, the internet (for the pedantic, read this as web browsers) was always a thing. When I look at my own parents (70), they don't struggle at all with anything that was learnable through high school. My dad could probably still use a slide rule if you gave him a few minutes to get reacquainted with it.

OTOH, they do struggle sometimes with an iPhone, not because it's complex, but because it's novel (to them) and they have some cognitive load just thinking about how a touch screen works, that they can't hold it with one hand in a front-to-back pinch grip and use the other hand to push the buttons, etc. For all of its simplicity to use, it might as well be a StarTrek communicator to them.

Sure, but by the time millennials are 70, iPhones will seem like slide rules, or worse. There will be a lot of new developments and paradigm shifts -- we can't assume that technology will build directly from what we have now. In fact, we should assume the opposite. Younger generations will certainly be using things that millennials won't "get." I don't see the millennial generation being particularly insulated from the trend of time and technology marching on, and of the older generations not getting it.

HawkeyeNFO

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
  • Location: Moose Scrotum, Alberta
  • Retired at 44
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2017, 01:59:43 PM »
Suze offers GREAT advice....for Joe 6-pack and also Billy-Bob Buttcrack.  Those people need to ensure that they have an income until they can take SS.  Her advice is NOT appropriate for the MMM crowd, who (whether or not they admit it) are the capitalists. 

The MMM crowd will invest their money into companies and take ownership of them, and also will assume the risks and rewards that come with that investment.  I do this through mutual funds, others may choose bonds or stocks directly, or even real estate.  As the owners, we also need a pool of labor, and supply and demand interact to give us a price for that labor.  If more workers demand jobs until they are 70, then the price of labor goes down as the supply of workers goes up.  The lower labor rates result in lower expenditure and hopefully more profits, which we, the MMM crowd (capitalists), then receive.

If you want to work until 70, then that's great!  Enjoy!  It's just not for me.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 02:01:37 PM by HawkeyeNFO »

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2017, 02:07:18 PM »
70 is the new 40 for me, mustachian-retirement-wise. :-)

Healthwise I'm on good trajectory, but wary of things like Parkinsons, etc.  And we all decline with age, both physically and mentally. 

We also become socially undesirable in the workplace, where people may be uncomfortable working alongside us as peers, or have trouble taking us seriously in certain roles.

My current plan as a consultant in tech is to build a business of my own, rather than get paid to help others with theirs.  It could be any kind of business, where my tech skills would give me an edge in marketing, operations, or whatever.

I often think about new careers worth retraining for, where gray hairs of wisdom and authority may be OK, and one could continue making real money into their seventies; but beyond the usual catch-alls like selling real estate or insurance.  Why not a 2nd/3rd/4th career as an accountant, or a building inspector?  What else might there be? 

fuzzy math

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
  • Location: PNW ---> Midwest (for now)
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2017, 02:46:02 PM »
RE: "70 is the new 50"

Not in body and not in mind when it comes to decision making. I'm a medical clinician and 90% of the age 60+ people I've worked with (who strangely enough have made up a disproportionate amount of my coworkers over the years) suffer from mental decline and are not the first person I'd want taking care of my loved one. The levels of befuddlement and "I've always done it this way and I'll be damned if I'm going to learn something new in my old age" are quite striking. Lots of mistakes made.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:09:37 AM by fuzzy math »

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3494
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2017, 05:28:03 PM »
With technology and advances in health, 70 will be the new 50, there will be lots of people willing and able to work. Itís actually happening now with the baby boomer generation not really retiring and the millennials feeling squeezed out, thatís only going to continue. Working to 70 doesnt necessarily mean working full-time either. There will be plenty of people working flexibly and if they are older and ok financially but working to stay engaged, then high salaries may not be the main focus. By 2025, 75% of the population will be millennials and younger, what do you think will happen when that group becomes 70 and is as tech savvy as anyone else with 40 years of advances in medicine and health?  Will start to see 100 as the avg lifespan and people will probably work until their 80s.
I'm doubtful about much of this. 

- Yes, we have advances in medicine, but the average person's diet isn't as good as those of previous generations ... so that's working against a longer lifespan.  Fewer people smoke though, and that's helpful for long lives.
- The article tipster references mentions obesity as an obstacle to longer lifespans ... we all know that's true.  My RN daughter says that obesity is a +1 for every other health difficulty you're experiencing ... and diabetes is another +1 for every other health difficulty you're experiencing.  I think that's true.
- 2025 is not far away; I don't think the Baby Boomers and Gen Xers are all going to die out in such numbers that Millenniels and youngers will make up 75% of the American population ... remember, the youngest Baby Boomers are still in their 50s and some Gen Xers are in their 40s.  For those two generations to make up only 25% of the population within eight years doesn't seem likely. 
- Will today's tech savvy milennials still be "cutting edge" in 20-30 years, or will a new generation of tech have made their knowledge as obsolete as floppy disks? 
- I read somewhere -- don't remember where -- that lifespans are growing longer for upper-class people (because of  medical advances, as you mentioned), but that people in manual labor jobs are dying at the same ages as their grandparents and great grandparents.  Bodies that work hard do wear out.

I wonder about this in myself.  I perceive myself to to learn tech things perfectly well, but only if I have a compelling reason to learn them.
I'm the same.  I have no problem learning tech-y things, but everything tech-y doesn't interest me, and if I don't see it as something useful to me on a personal level, I just don't bother.  Sometimes this is a problem at work.  :)

Sure, but by the time millennials are 70, iPhones will seem like slide rules, or worse. There will be a lot of new developments and paradigm shifts -- we can't assume that technology will build directly from what we have now. In fact, we should assume the opposite. Younger generations will certainly be using things that millennials won't "get." I don't see the millennial generation being particularly insulated from the trend of time and technology marching on, and of the older generations not getting it.
Exactly.  Consider how much yesterday's manual typewriter shares with today's iPhone ... pretty much just the arrangement of the keyboard.  I don't know what's coming in future years, but I suspect it'll make the iPhone look like that old typewriter. 

Remember, too, that technology is a fickle mistress.  It's great when it works, but you need to have other knowledge behind it for the all-too-common times when technology fails us.  A very common thing I see at school:  We're moving to  sooooooo many computer-based lessons, and about every two weeks the wifi goes down, leaving us without computers.  The teachers who have nothing but tech in their lesson-plan arsenal are adrift and fall apart.  Those of us who taught before Smart Boards and computers carts just change gears and roll right on.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:48:28 PM by MrsPete »

99to1percent

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • https://99to1percent.com
Re: Suzie Orman: Working until 70 (or later) should be the goal of everyone
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2017, 10:00:17 AM »
70? Hopefully it would be because we love what we are doing, and not because we have to. For example, should we might continue our side gigs, but ideally we would want to have other people manage them for us, while we travel the world.

avrex

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 286
  • Location: Canada
    • Avrex Money (it's been dormant for awhile)
Quote from: Suze Orman
"Yes, you heard me right: 70 is the new retirement ageónot a month or year before."

Hey Suze Orman,
F that.  You go ahead and work until 70.
Don't tell the rest of us when we can FIRE.

Here's a more thoughtful rebuttal of your ridiculous 'work until 70' rule.

Hereís Why Sheís Wrong


pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
She is a national figure.  She has probably spoken with the movers and shakers that truly run the economy of this country.  We all look at the trinity report and proceed along the assumption that history will repeat itself.  Four percent of a savings that is 25X your expected necessary income is supposed to suffice.

I'm just saying she has built herself up to being a national figure.  She is known as a financial guru.  There are probably things she can say and cannot say due to her various connections with the powers at be.  Maybe she is just telling us what she can about the financial future of the US.

The best laid schemes oí Mice aní Men  Gang aft agley.

swampwiz

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 392
a large number of men die soon after retiring (women are generally fine),

Ah, but do these men retire because they're in ill health, or do they retire and then get sick?

They retire, get depressed, then ill, then die.

Actually, I think these men just work until they die, and only "retire" when they are to sick to work.  Think of Andy Rooney, John McLaughlin, Paul "Bear" Bryant.