Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 76164 times)

goatmom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #600 on: May 08, 2018, 06:23:03 AM »
Actually, greater than 70 percent of child abuse deaths occur before age 2.  I am just trying to say if we want to stop child abuse we need greater oversight over younger children. 

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #601 on: May 08, 2018, 06:31:25 AM »
Thatís how Iíd read your post, goatmom -that if abuse is our concern, we need checks across the board, for all children, not just those homeschooling ages 5-17. It doesnít fit to say HS kids need checks but nonHS kids donít. Addresssing abuse is a separate matter and would need to apply to all kids, everywhere.

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #602 on: May 08, 2018, 06:40:45 AM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

At birth children should be placed in a government sanctioned conditioning facility and have limited contact with their parents.

^^^This. How can we possibly trust non professionals to properly raise children? Yeah, we allowed that kind of thing in the distant past, but when you know better, you do better, right?

birdman2003

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #603 on: May 08, 2018, 06:44:11 AM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

At birth children should be placed in a government sanctioned conditioning facility and have limited contact with their parents.

^^^This. How can we possibly trust non professionals to properly raise children? Yeah, we allowed that kind of thing in the distant past, but when you know better, you do better, right?

Government oversight and control of raising children is every American's basic right.

ditheca

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #604 on: May 08, 2018, 10:49:44 AM »
Where I live in in Utah, there is a 10 year old boy going around the neighborhood telling all the other children that homeschooling is amazing and they are all missing out by wasting all day at school.

According to him, home schooling consists of 30 minutes of educational videos each day.  He also (rarely) has to complete a few easy multiple choice tests.

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #605 on: May 08, 2018, 01:30:22 PM »
Where I live in in Utah, there is a 10 year old boy going around the neighborhood telling all the other children that homeschooling is amazing and they are all missing out by wasting all day at school.

According to him, home schooling consists of 30 minutes of educational videos each day.  He also (rarely) has to complete a few easy multiple choice tests.

The multiple choice test part sounds pretty unnecessary.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #606 on: May 08, 2018, 02:54:23 PM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

At birth children should be placed in a government sanctioned conditioning facility and have limited contact with their parents.

Alternate answer:  "None, which is they have a higher rate of child abuse."

Maybe, just maybe, the reason why child abuse deaths drop off so dramatically at Kindergarten age is precisely because there are suddenly other adults involved to report and investigate suspicious circumstances. 

I feel like goatmom was intending to argue that external oversight over home situations is unnecessary, but her example sort of proves the converse.  When kids have professional oversight by adults not in their immediate family, the abuse rates apparently drop considerably.

Sorry, but the data doesn't support this.  I got the raw data from the website several pages back that promotes more oversight for homeschool families.  The data showed stagnant rates of child abuse despite increasing population and increasing numbers of homeschoolers since the early Aughts.  I'd be happy to pass it along to you if you want. 

While I was at it, I looked at Department of Education data on abuse in public schools.  Your child's odds of experiencing sexual misconduct by someone working for the public school are 1 in 10.  I will have to find data on bullying and violence by students, but since many schools have abandoned "zero tolerance" I suspect we're going to start seeing even more gang violence at schools.  Sending your kids to many violent public schools throughout the country is basically child abuse and poor people often can't afford private school.  Your views are basically those of a white liberal in a school district carefully-zoned to exclude emerging-majority gangs.

There are two philosophies of government on this thread. The view that the government is a necessary evil because man is evil and should therefore be minimized to the point of keeping order.  The second view is essentially statism.  Given that most people on this forum are bureaucrats or otherwise draw a paycheck from the government, the second view is dominant here.  Obviously, in the limit, we're all very safe if the government just puts us in a cage. 

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #607 on: May 08, 2018, 03:03:35 PM »
Actually, greater than 70 percent of child abuse deaths occur before age 2.  I am just trying to say if we want to stop child abuse we need greater oversight over younger children.

Right, and most "abuse" of older children is actually neglect. 

What do you recommend - a license for having a kid?  How about,  a government-sponsored child-advocate like they tried in Scotland?  This was a bridge too far for even Scots who love the nanny state.  Would you just expand the scope of CPS?  It sure didn't help these poor kids nor many others mentioned on the thread:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pacific-coast-highway-crash-5-killed-mendocino/

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #608 on: May 08, 2018, 03:08:27 PM »
Your views are basically those of a white liberal in a school district carefully-zoned to exclude emerging-majority gangs.

There are two philosophies of government on this thread. The view that the government is a necessary evil because man is evil and should therefore be minimized to the point of keeping order.  The second view is essentially statism.  Given that most people on this forum are bureaucrats or otherwise draw a paycheck from the government, the second view is dominant here.  Obviously, in the limit, we're all very safe if the government just puts us in a cage.

Well, you do get style points.

In the substance though, I'm not impressed. Your simplistic caricatures are self serving and insulting, just like they were six months ago and the year before that.  Your world view seems overly black and white, then cartoonishly amplified with the intent of aggravating people by appealing to their subconscious bigotry.

Which probably works on some folks!  I bet you can find lots of people eager to jump on your scapegoat bandwagon.  But you're probably going to be disappointed with the amount of turnout you get from this particular community, because I think most of us can see through you.

You seriously just said that people who want to reduce child abuse are "statists"?  Does that rhyme with "stalinists" or "satanists" or both?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 06:06:59 PM by sol »

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #609 on: May 08, 2018, 03:55:51 PM »
Your child's odds of experiencing sexual misconduct by someone working for the public school are 1 in 10. 

If you're going to make outlandish claims such as this, please provide source data.

FYI, 1 in 10 means that my high school of 1400 students would have had 140 sexually abused by staff across those four years.  That seems rather...... far fetched.


Given that most people on this forum are bureaucrats or otherwise draw a paycheck from the government, the second view is dominant here.

Actually the 'average' forum member is a techie programmer in their late twenties to mid thirties, making between 70k and 150k a year.  MMM even did a blog about that one.  How many people do you think work for the government...?

/tangent
Although, once you count federal funding, the percentage of 'government employees' grows drastically.  /tangent

Either way, saying that the majority here works for the government is also a stretch.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #610 on: May 08, 2018, 06:21:24 PM »

If you're going to make outlandish claims such as this, please provide source data.

FYI, 1 in 10 means that my high school of 1400 students would have had 140 sexually abused by staff across those four years.  That seems rather...... far fetched.
Chapter 3: https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

Quote

Actually the 'average' forum member is a techie programmer in their late twenties to mid thirties, making between 70k and 150k a year.  MMM even did a blog about that one.  How many people do you think work for the government...?

/tangent
Although, once you count federal funding, the percentage of 'government employees' grows drastically.  /tangent

Either way, saying that the majority here works for the government is also a stretch.

That fits.  The majority of coastal programmers are collectivists.  Later I'll dig-up the poll on the values of Silicon Valley CEOs.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #611 on: May 08, 2018, 06:25:16 PM »
Your views are basically those of a white liberal in a school district carefully-zoned to exclude emerging-majority gangs.

There are two philosophies of government on this thread. The view that the government is a necessary evil because man is evil and should therefore be minimized to the point of keeping order.  The second view is essentially statism.  Given that most people on this forum are bureaucrats or otherwise draw a paycheck from the government, the second view is dominant here.  Obviously, in the limit, we're all very safe if the government just puts us in a cage.

Well, you do get style points.

In the substance though, I'm not impressed. Your simplistic caricatures are self serving and insulting, just like they were six months ago and the year before that.  Your world view seems overly black and white, then cartoonishly amplified with the intent of aggravating people by appealing to their subconscious bigotry.

Which probably works on some folks!  I bet you can find lots of people eager to jump on your scapegoat bandwagon.  But you're probably going to be disappointed with the amount of turnout you get from this particular community, because I think most of us can see through you.

You seriously just said that people who want to reduce child abuse are "statists"?  Does that rhyme with "stalinists" or "satanists" or both?

That's not what I said at all.  You can't read.  Sad. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #612 on: May 09, 2018, 08:16:27 AM »

If you're going to make outlandish claims such as this, please provide source data.

FYI, 1 in 10 means that my high school of 1400 students would have had 140 sexually abused by staff across those four years.  That seems rather...... far fetched.
Chapter 3: https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf


I'm reading Chapter 3.  Among the examples of sexual abuse listed on page 17 (which can occur from teachers, principals, or other students)  we have:
- Seeing sexual jokes, comments, gestures, or looks
- Seeing sexual messages/graffitti on bathroom/locker room walls
- Being called gay/lesbian
- Being Flashed/mooned

In which case, I think that the 10% number is way low.  It should be closer to 100%.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #613 on: May 09, 2018, 09:02:03 AM »
I'm reading Chapter 3.  Among the examples of sexual abuse listed on page 17 (which can occur from teachers, principals, or other students)  we have:
- Seeing sexual jokes, comments, gestures, or looks
- Seeing sexual messages/graffitti on bathroom/locker room walls
- Being called gay/lesbian
- Being Flashed/mooned

In which case, I think that the 10% number is way low.  It should be closer to 100%.
I think 10% by staff is a very high estimate; now if we're talking by peers, you're right it's close to 100% when you include the forms you listed.

K-12FI

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #614 on: May 09, 2018, 09:06:18 AM »
I've been in and out of this thread, so I'm not 100% sure how many I've noticed, but there were a number of statements made that I want to comment on.

There was someone a page or so back that made mention of how curriculum is 'set' at schools. As an educator who has worked at rural and urban schools, I can say that, at least in my experience, this is not the case. Curriculum is very much dependent on the individual district, and oftentimes not even set by the district. Where I currently work we have many foster students, and they move from school to school. In some cases they may read To Kill a Mockingbird every year of high school, or, in one of my students' cases, read it two quarters in a row.

This conundrum is not merely in English. For Mathematics, the content of 'Algebra I' is not standard from textbook to textbook. The sequencing of classes-Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II-is also not consistent from district to district, nor is the content within each. Claiming that, by virtue of it being a 'public school', that there is some form of curriculum standardization, is naive at best.

In short: There are more variables at play in public education than this thread's posters have asserted at times. Just because it's a public school does not make it substantially equitable to surrounding, or even the average school nationwide. Understanding the limits of Public, Private, and Homeschooling, and putting your child's and family's needs first, allows you to make an informed decision-and one that does not have to be irrevocable.

P.S. linked below is Missouri's adaptation of the CCSS for Mathematics, 6-12. They are rather vague and in practice, educators are chosen to choose 2-3 'power standards' to 'hang their had on' and have data for, for each semester. That makes 4-6 pieces of data a year, as a goal.

https://dese.mo.gov/sites/default/files/curr-mls-standards-math-6-12-sboe-2016.pdf

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #615 on: May 11, 2018, 03:02:15 PM »
Just a random thought on this topic since it seems to be popping up again...

It seems to me that what you get when you send your child to a school (public, private, parochial, charter) is an AVERAGE.  You'll always get some great teachers, some awful teachers, and many who are in between.

In homeschooling, you have your parents and maybe a few handpicked instructors. But the sample number of teachers a child will experience is much fewer. So if the parents are great teachers, the homeschool kid will have a better-than-average experience. If they aren't, well, not so much.  Which is why we hear of some homeschooled kids who have fantastic educations, and others who have hardly any education at all.

Same goes for peer interactions. 

Small sample size => greater variation

I guess the question is, is the value of a kid's education measured by the best teacher, the worst teacher, or the average?  Having that one teacher who inspires and lights you up can change your life... as can a mean or abusive teacher. Lots of room for thought.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #616 on: May 12, 2018, 02:21:39 PM »

If you're going to make outlandish claims such as this, please provide source data.

FYI, 1 in 10 means that my high school of 1400 students would have had 140 sexually abused by staff across those four years.  That seems rather...... far fetched.
Chapter 3: https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf


I'm reading Chapter 3.  Among the examples of sexual abuse listed on page 17 (which can occur from teachers, principals, or other students)  we have:
- Seeing sexual jokes, comments, gestures, or looks
- Seeing sexual messages/graffitti on bathroom/locker room walls
- Being called gay/lesbian
- Being Flashed/mooned

In which case, I think that the 10% number is way low.  It should be closer to 100%.

you have to take every study with an enormous grain of salt.  Correlate studies with what you've seen and read and ask yourself if you are fooling yourself with your correlation and how. 

The federal government obviously has a huge problem getting data.  What local school official is going to want to forward data to the government that might put their school in a bad light?  So this study I posted might be under-reporting the problem or over-reporting it.  Maybe we should all start talking to our kids about what they see at school?

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #617 on: May 12, 2018, 03:38:13 PM »
The federal government obviously has a huge problem getting data.

Lol. 

Just as a compare and contrast exercise, I would like to point out that the US federal government is the single most productive and reliable source of scientific data in the entire world.  Your trillions of dollars of taxes make sure of it.

Our government is bad at lots of things.  Record keeping is not one of them.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #618 on: May 13, 2018, 01:02:51 AM »
IMO attitudes towards home schooling often depend on your own childhood baggage.  I had a difficult relationship with my parents, an unstable family background and can't imagine having to spend all day with my parents (or whatever other instructors they selected) as a child.  I went to public school and my parents worked full time which wasn't perfect but was good for me as it allowed me to form other relationships with adults who were more stable and who had different attitudes and points of view and allowed me to become a member of society at large and choose my own path which is different from what my parents would have liked.  My parents tried their best but home schooling would have been an absolute unmitigated disaster for me and my sister.

OTOH - as a kid I remember meeting school friends who had really wonderful, patient parents and lived in very stable family environments. 

So I guess homeschooling could be great or it could be an unmitigated disaster but IMO it gives too much power to parents, who may or may not be good for kids.  At least at public school you have different teachers and different kids to interact with.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #619 on: May 17, 2018, 06:59:34 PM »
Anecdotal evidence from the front page of today's news:  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/child-abuse-case-california-spotlights-lack-oversight-home-schooling-n874801

People are concerned that the complete lack of required oversight for homeschoolers has fostered situations like this one, in which a couple literally tortured their ten children.  Waterboarding, burning, shooting them, you know just the normal parental discipline stuff.  Amounting to nine counts of felony torture and six counts of felony child abuse.  To children with such visible damage done to them that a public school system would have had to step in long ago.

In a cruel twist of fate, these parents withdrew their kids from public school after concerns that one of their daughters was being bullied.  They opted to home school and torture their kids instead of deal with that unfortunate situation.

This story comes to you close on the heels of the 13 malnourished homeschool kids who escaped from confinement in their California home, and the apparent murder of six homeschool kids after their mother's abuse was revealed back in March.

My sense is that the tide of public opinion may be turning against homeschooling, due to the rapid fire incidence of tragedies like these concentrated in the home schooling community in a single state.


« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 07:03:12 PM by sol »

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #620 on: May 17, 2018, 10:22:29 PM »
Anecdotal evidence from the front page of today's news:  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/child-abuse-case-california-spotlights-lack-oversight-home-schooling-n874801

People are concerned that the complete lack of required oversight for homeschoolers has fostered situations like this one, in which a couple literally tortured their ten children.  Waterboarding, burning, shooting them, you know just the normal parental discipline stuff.  Amounting to nine counts of felony torture and six counts of felony child abuse.  To children with such visible damage done to them that a public school system would have had to step in long ago.

In a cruel twist of fate, these parents withdrew their kids from public school after concerns that one of their daughters was being bullied.  They opted to home school and torture their kids instead of deal with that unfortunate situation.

This story comes to you close on the heels of the 13 malnourished homeschool kids who escaped from confinement in their California home, and the apparent murder of six homeschool kids after their mother's abuse was revealed back in March.

My sense is that the tide of public opinion may be turning against homeschooling, due to the rapid fire incidence of tragedies like these concentrated in the home schooling community in a single state.

For someone who claims to like SCIENCE! you sure dwell in the Land of Anecdote.  Of course, I offered you data further up the page and you didn't respond. 

Even in California, another anti-homeschooling bill based on the anecdote you shared above didn't even make it to a vote in the state assembly.  The reason the tide is not turning against homeschooling except in your white liberal upper class bubble is that the school system is strained to the point of breaking in many states for many reasons.  On the matter of sexual abuse by school personnel alone I could fill this entire forum with anecdotes.  In California, one out of every two dollars allocated to public schools is actually being siphoned off to pay retired teacher benefits.  They're laying off teachers or stuffing more kids into larger classes.  25% of teachers in this state have been assaulted by one of their students.  IMagine what the kids are doing to one-another.  Wait...I have another DoE report on that!

The idea that the State will, in general, look out for kids better than the parents will is something even the State doesn't believe which is why it tries to keep kids with parents even after a visit from CPS. 

MOD EDIT: Forum rule #1.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:32:43 PM by arebelspy »

spookytaffy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #621 on: May 18, 2018, 09:57:18 AM »
I'm a school psychologist, so obviously I'm biased toward public schools.  However, at a recent school psychology conference, I went to a session on home-schoolers and child abuse.  They had actually researched the fact that the TREND is more home schooled children are sexually abused (at home) than public school children.  This study looked at the ultra-right-wing religious home-schoolers that tend to be male-dominated. The male head of household isolates the family and then decides that God told him that his daughter should sleep with him etc etc etc. 

Throughout the session they had disclaimers that not all home-schoolers abuse their kids (duh!) but that there is research that supports these kids are much more vulnerable to it than public school kids.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #622 on: May 18, 2018, 10:23:22 AM »
They had actually researched the fact that the TREND is more home schooled children are sexually abused (at home) than public school children.  This study looked at the ultra-right-wing religious home-schoolers that tend to be male-dominated.

In addition to the overall trend in occurrence, I worry about the severity of the problems.  I suspect that public school kids get bullied harassed by other children far more often, but they are never waterboarded, or raped daily at school for years on end, or shot with crossbows, or starved and confined in cages, or any of the other recent crimes committed by homeschool parents.

The public school system certainly has its own challenges, but those kids have a variety of adults looking out for them and that seems to prevent the worst kinds of abuse.  I would feel a lot better about home schooling if there were mandatory rules about interacting with ten nonfamilial adults every school day, in the presence of other kids who can also report to independent adults about their classroom experiences.  Without those checks and balances, you sometimes end up with children being waterboarded.

This isn't because I'm a "statist" or whatever label the libertarians in this thread want to give me.  I don't care about mind control or social conditioning or the other concerns that conspiracy theorists have about public education.  I care about the safety of children, and unregulated homeschool systems are an identifiable and preventable risk.

All I'm asking is that we put some safeguards in place.  If you want to live in American society, please accept some of the rules of civilization.  Like for example, don't waterboard your kids.  Allow independent adults to conduct welfare checks so no one falls through the cracks.  If you want to live off the grid without any government interference, please move outside of a place under governmental jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 11:03:55 AM by sol »

e34bb098

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #623 on: May 18, 2018, 10:58:09 AM »
The idea that the State will, in general, look out for kids better than the parents will....

I'm not sure anyone actually believes this.

Yes, we as a society should generally be able to trust parents to look after their children's best interests.  This is compatible with the view that we as a society should have safeguards to protect children from the small percentage of parents who are negligent, abusive, or otherwise unfit.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #624 on: May 18, 2018, 12:07:18 PM »
If the concern is child welfare checks, then the state should step in before age 5. You could have a law that authorizes a state agency to check on the welfare of a child resident if there has not been a report indicating the child is well in a certain amount of time (perhaps 3 months). Public schools would be one source of providing reports of child wellness, medical professionals could be another, there could be a method for ecclesiastical leaders to submit reports as well. This would give the state power to prevent children being isolated and abused while still giving parents plenty of choice in how their children are raised.

BlueMR2

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #625 on: May 20, 2018, 01:42:20 PM »
I'm doing a complete turnaround on this one.  I've previously complained about how socially awkward the homeschoolers are when they hit society and used that as my argument against.  That portion still holds true as a negative.  However, after having worked recently with a fairly large number of distinct groups of home schooled children (some entering the workforce) I have to say that they are far more mature, capable, and responsible than the ones schooled outside the home.  Awkward at times yes, but far better contributors overall.  I'm now solidly in the pro-homeschooling camp.  Yes, there are more opportunities for certain types of abuse, but the public school system is also quite abusive.  I call that a wash...

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #626 on: May 20, 2018, 06:43:57 PM »
Quote
Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.  Seems like a recipe for deliberately increasing the risk of child abuse, if you ask me. 

There may be lots of other good reasons to home school your kids.  Keeping them safer from child abuse does not appear to be one of them.
Before you can credibly make such a claim, you must first show, using relevant statistics, that the amount of abuse prevented by the background checks, child abuse prevention training, and mandatory reporting requirements is greater than the amount of abuse that takes place because of the public school setting, plus the benefits homeschooling brings as a whole, plus the cost of implementing those checks, training, and reporting.

When drilling down into child abuse statistics, showing that homeschooling families have a similar income distribution to the general public, and using that as a proxy to claim that homeschooling families are just as prone to abuse as public schoolers is not a valid step.  You'll have to actually gather statistics on homeschoolers vs public schoolers, and control for income, race, age, etc.

I'm not saying that your claim is false.  What I'm saying is that you are wrong to make such a claim, because there's no evidence to support it.  Walking through a series of "do you agree"s presents a false choice.
I'm a school psychologist, so obviously I'm biased toward public schools.  However, at a recent school psychology conference, I went to a session on home-schoolers and child abuse.  They had actually researched the fact that the TREND is more home schooled children are sexually abused (at home) than public school children.  This study looked at the ultra-right-wing religious home-schoolers that tend to be male-dominated. The male head of household isolates the family and then decides that God told him that his daughter should sleep with him etc etc etc. 

Throughout the session they had disclaimers that not all home-schoolers abuse their kids (duh!) but that there is research that supports these kids are much more vulnerable to it than public school kids.
(emphasis mine)Does it strike anybody else as...odd...that the study focused on a particular subset of homeschoolers in order to come up with a particularly negative result?  It's kind of like running a study on inner-city Baltimore schools, and pointing out the high level of gang involvement, while claiming "but not all public schools are like this!"

goatmom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #627 on: May 20, 2018, 07:44:28 PM »
Do you have the source for that study? 

Villanelle

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #628 on: May 22, 2018, 10:39:52 PM »
I'm doing a complete turnaround on this one.  I've previously complained about how socially awkward the homeschoolers are when they hit society and used that as my argument against.  That portion still holds true as a negative.  However, after having worked recently with a fairly large number of distinct groups of home schooled children (some entering the workforce) I have to say that they are far more mature, capable, and responsible than the ones schooled outside the home.  Awkward at times yes, but far better contributors overall.  I'm now solidly in the pro-homeschooling camp.  Yes, there are more opportunities for certain types of abuse, but the public school system is also quite abusive.  I call that a wash...

But wouldn't adding a level of basic oversight allow for all of those advantages while helping to prevent some of the disadvantages?  Isn't that the ideal outcome?  All those good things of which you speak, but less potential for abuse going unnoticed?  If the kids have to sit down with the local school counselor for one hour every 6 months, that's not going to prevent all those awesome things you noticed, but it may prevent some of the potential for abuse. 

spookytaffy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #629 on: May 23, 2018, 08:33:03 AM »
I'm sorry--I don't have a source for the study. It was a presentation at a conference a couple years ago.  And I  misrepresented it--they didn't look at only ultra-right-wing homeschoolers; the results indicated that among homeschoolers, the ones who fit that demographic were the ones that fell out as being more prone to abusing their kids.  I don't even remember the parameters of the study; just the results surprised me so it stuck with me.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #630 on: May 23, 2018, 09:55:34 AM »
I'm doing a complete turnaround on this one.  I've previously complained about how socially awkward the homeschoolers are when they hit society and used that as my argument against.  That portion still holds true as a negative.  However, after having worked recently with a fairly large number of distinct groups of home schooled children (some entering the workforce) I have to say that they are far more mature, capable, and responsible than the ones schooled outside the home.  Awkward at times yes, but far better contributors overall.  I'm now solidly in the pro-homeschooling camp.  Yes, there are more opportunities for certain types of abuse, but the public school system is also quite abusive.  I call that a wash...

But wouldn't adding a level of basic oversight allow for all of those advantages while helping to prevent some of the disadvantages?  Isn't that the ideal outcome?  All those good things of which you speak, but less potential for abuse going unnoticed?  If the kids have to sit down with the local school counselor for one hour every 6 months, that's not going to prevent all those awesome things you noticed, but it may prevent some of the potential for abuse.
The problem here is that there's an assumption of guilt, and every 6 months, you have to prove your innocence.  You're going to drag a couple million kids twice per year in order to potentially root out a couple dozen cases of abuse.  Because it's important to remember that you'll only catch some fraction of abuse cases. In the process, you also create the potential for abuse by the overseers.  This isn't just hypothetical, either.  There are a LOT of CPS employees and public school employees who are biased against homeschooling and/or have a poor understanding of homeschooling laws, even in states with next-to-no laws regarding homeschooling, and there are lots of stories of these usually-well-meaning folk causing all sorts of problems for homeschoolers.  There's a reason HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association) exists. 

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #631 on: May 23, 2018, 10:02:14 AM »
The problem here is that there's an assumption of guilt, and every 6 months, you have to prove your innocence.  You're going to drag a couple million kids twice per year in order to potentially root out a couple dozen cases of abuse. 

Why would you possibly think there was a presumption of guilt?  Are parents of public school kids presumed guilty just because their kids interact with other adults outside of the family on a regular basis?

I think that regular interactions with society at large are a vital part of a kid's education.  Maybe detecting child abuse in the home is just a positive side effect. 

In fact, the more I think about it the more concerned I get.  Are there really parents who are deliberately isolating their children from all contact with the outside world?  Isn't that like a classic sign of an abuser?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #632 on: May 23, 2018, 10:58:29 AM »
The problem here is that there's an assumption of guilt, and every 6 months, you have to prove your innocence.  You're going to drag a couple million kids twice per year in order to potentially root out a couple dozen cases of abuse. 

Why would you possibly think there was a presumption of guilt?  Are parents of public school kids presumed guilty just because their kids interact with other adults outside of the family on a regular basis?

I think that regular interactions with society at large are a vital part of a kid's education.  Maybe detecting child abuse in the home is just a positive side effect. 

In fact, the more I think about it the more concerned I get.  Are there really parents who are deliberately isolating their children from all contact with the outside world?  Isn't that like a classic sign of an abuser?
Why do I consider semiannual interviews of children a presumption of guilt?  Because it's done without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause, unless you consider homeschooling itself to be reasonable suspicion.

I find it a bit alarming that you equate homeschooling with isolation from society at large, as if school is kids' only interaction outside the home.  You're forgetting sports, community activities, church, the neighborhood you live in, and every other normal everyday activity people engage in.  This is aside from the wealth of opportunities offered by homeschooling communities--coops, classes, performing groups, etc.  DW, for example, hosts monthly cooking clubs and book clubs and a girls' club.

I may be misinterpreting here, but it sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "preventing abuse" to "ensuring interactions with people outside the family."

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #633 on: May 23, 2018, 11:07:50 AM »
The problem here is that there's an assumption of guilt, and every 6 months, you have to prove your innocence.  You're going to drag a couple million kids twice per year in order to potentially root out a couple dozen cases of abuse. 

Why would you possibly think there was a presumption of guilt?  Are parents of public school kids presumed guilty just because their kids interact with other adults outside of the family on a regular basis?

I think that regular interactions with society at large are a vital part of a kid's education.  Maybe detecting child abuse in the home is just a positive side effect. 

In fact, the more I think about it the more concerned I get.  Are there really parents who are deliberately isolating their children from all contact with the outside world?  Isn't that like a classic sign of an abuser?
Why do I consider semiannual interviews of children a presumption of guilt?  Because it's done without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause, unless you consider homeschooling itself to be reasonable suspicion.

I find it a bit alarming that you equate homeschooling with isolation from society at large, as if school is kids' only interaction outside the home.  You're forgetting sports, community activities, church, the neighborhood you live in, and every other normal everyday activity people engage in.  This is aside from the wealth of opportunities offered by homeschooling communities--coops, classes, performing groups, etc.  DW, for example, hosts monthly cooking clubs and book clubs and a girls' club.

I may be misinterpreting here, but it sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "preventing abuse" to "ensuring interactions with people outside the family."

I think that if proof of involvement in sports, community activities, church, and every other normal everyday activity that people engage in is provided every six months that would suffice for this check up.  The concern is with the families unable to provide any of these.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #634 on: May 23, 2018, 11:11:01 AM »
I find it a bit alarming that you equate homeschooling with isolation from society at large, as if school is kids' only interaction outside the home.

I'm not forgetting anything.  I know that homeschooling doesn't require or even necessarily encourage complete isolation from the outside world, but it does allow it, and those appear to be the cases in which we've recently seen such horrible abuses in home school families.  I'm trying to envision an acceptable solution in which that sort of isolation is no longer allowed.

Quote
I may be misinterpreting here, but it sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "preventing abuse" to "ensuring interactions with people outside the family."

I'm not moving the goalposts (except maybe backwards), I'm suggesting that ensuring that interaction with people outside of the family (without supervision by a family member who could compel silence) is one possible method of preventing abuse.  Maybe the least intrusive way of preventing abuse.  I'm open to other suggestions on how to prevent abuse of home schooled kids, because "trusting the parents to do the right thing" isn't working out very well in some cases.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #635 on: May 23, 2018, 04:07:06 PM »
Quote
I may be misinterpreting here, but it sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "preventing abuse" to "ensuring interactions with people outside the family."

I'm not moving the goalposts (except maybe backwards), I'm suggesting that ensuring that interaction with people outside of the family (without supervision by a family member who could compel silence) is one possible method of preventing abuse.  Maybe the least intrusive way of preventing abuse.  I'm open to other suggestions on how to prevent abuse of home schooled kids, because "trusting the parents to do the right thing" isn't working out very well in some cases.
You are correct that it doesn't work out well in some cases.  And I agree that those cases are absolutely tragic.  However, in seeking a solution, we must make sure that the cure isn't worse than the disease.  We're talking about double-digit numbers of kids abused out of approximately 1.8 million (an estimate of total number of homeschooled kids in the US).  Doing semiannual interviews of every homeschooled kid in the nation in order to root out a problematic fraction of a percent seems...I dunno, a bit excessive?  Inefficient?  Intrusive?  I mean, it's akin to interviewing every owner of a drill press every six months, just in case one of them might use it to finish an 80% AR-15 lower receiver (which is legal) and sell it (not so much).  Or doing the same to every Ford Mustang owner, because they're (stereotypically) more likely to plow into a bunch of bystanders after a Cars 'n' Coffee.

The thing is, you're always going to have some fraction of the population that isn't going to behave itself.  Regulations and monitoring quickly hit the law of diminishing returns, and no matter how tightly you try to ratchet up enforcement, there will always be a percentage that you miss.  The question, then, really isn't as black-and-white as you try to portray it.  Like so many things, it comes down to how much we are willing to pay vs. how much safety we get.  You and I clearly have different levels of risk tolerance, and that's fine.  But before we impose a significant cost on families and governments, let's gather some data and quantify how much that cost will be, and how much benefit we can expect to get out of it.  Then we can argue about whether it's worth it.

goatmom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #636 on: May 23, 2018, 04:17:50 PM »
I'm sorry--I don't have a source for the study. It was a presentation at a conference a couple years ago.  And I  misrepresented it--they didn't look at only ultra-right-wing homeschoolers; the results indicated that among homeschoolers, the ones who fit that demographic were the ones that fell out as being more prone to abusing their kids.  I don't even remember the parameters of the study; just the results surprised me so it stuck with me.

Yes, I did some research looking for numbers and could not find them.  It would be helpful to have the data. 

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #637 on: May 23, 2018, 04:20:38 PM »
Doing semiannual interviews of every homeschooled kid in the nation

I'm not proposing doing semiannual interviews, I'm proposing requiring some interaction with society at large so that kids can't be isolated while being victimized.  If you're involved in a home school community and your kids get to spend time with other adults who have mandatory reporting requirements, without you present, then interviews would be redundant. 

And you haven't proposed a single positive alternative during this discussion.  All you've done is shoot down every idea as "too intrusive" and whine about the supposed "lack of data" and then propose we maintain the status quo indefinitely.  You don't appear to WANT protections for abused kids, you just want to maintain the existing  protections for abuser parents.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #638 on: May 23, 2018, 05:04:08 PM »
have mandatory reporting requirements
This is the sticky part of your proposed solution to me. The only people that many homeschoolers regularly interact with that meet this requirement would be health care providers - and for most school aged children the frequency is much less than every 6 months.

gaja

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #639 on: May 23, 2018, 05:17:50 PM »
Re: the cost/benefit ratio of having regular check ups for homeschooled kids.

The good thing about living in a socialist nanny state, is that we have good statistics. Domestic violence in Norway has an annual cost of 4.5-6 billion NOK (numbers from 2010). The cost per person varies from 27 million NOK if they die, to down to 50 000 - 150 000 NOK a year of future productivity loss averaged over lifetime for children who suffer lighter long term damage. (P. 11 her: https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/upload/jd/ingressbilder/rapporter/voldsmaling2012.pdf)

Let us say that you could stop parents from killing 10 kids a year, and reduce long term damage for 100 kids. That means savings of around $34 million. If Sol can implement a programme costing less than that, you would have a net gain.

calimom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #640 on: May 23, 2018, 08:25:21 PM »
I was deeply impacted and saddened by the PMW family who drunkenly and purposely drove their 6 home schooled children over a cliff in Mendocino County recently.Just about 100 miles from where I live. Documented concerns of physical and emotional abuse had raised red flags by neighbors had been called in, and social services were going tobe investigated by overworked caseworkers when they could get to it. It was too late.

Hard not to think that if they were in public school, with mandated reporters, that this preventable tragedy could have been averted. Obviously most homeschoolers don'tharm or kill their children, but when it slips through the cracks, the results can be deadly.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #641 on: May 24, 2018, 08:58:37 AM »
Doing semiannual interviews of every homeschooled kid in the nation

I'm not proposing doing semiannual interviews, I'm proposing requiring some interaction with society at large so that kids can't be isolated while being victimized.  If you're involved in a home school community and your kids get to spend time with other adults who have mandatory reporting requirements, without you present, then interviews would be redundant. 

And you haven't proposed a single positive alternative during this discussion.  All you've done is shoot down every idea as "too intrusive" and whine about the supposed "lack of data" and then propose we maintain the status quo indefinitely.  You don't appear to WANT protections for abused kids, you just want to maintain the existing protections for abuser parents.
The burden of proof lies on those who wish to change the status quo. 

Wait, did you just say that because I an unconvinced of the benefit of your proposals, that I want to protect abusive parents and don't want to protect kids?  I don't know whether to be annoyed or amused.

I admit to a mistake--you didn't propose semiannual interviews, but annual ones:
Quote from: sol
I would like those protections to be universal.  I believe that operating without them increases the risk.  In the absence of those protections for home schoolers, I think we should be leveraging the existing capabilities of public schools to benefit home schoolers, and that could take the form of an annual check in with the guidance counselor.  This is not government overreach, it's basic child safety.
In any case, that comment was four months ago, so I can understand not remembering it or shifting one's position over time.  No worries, it happens :)  I also get you and GuitarStv mixed up at times!

I agree that interaction with people outside the family is healthy and beneficial.  But setting an arbitrary requirement for it?  C'mon.  Are you going to impose the same requirement on kids when they're out of school for the summer?  What if a family goes to their lakeside cabin for a month out in the country?  What about families that live way out in a rural area?  As always, the devil is in the details.  Because incidents of abuse enabled by isolation enabled by homeschooling are (statistically) so rare (thankfully!), for every suspicious set of circumstances you come up with, you're going to catch way more innocents than abusers.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #642 on: May 24, 2018, 09:43:55 AM »
The burden of proof lies on those who wish to change the status quo. 

Wait, did you just say that because I an unconvinced of the benefit of your proposals, that I want to protect abusive parents and don't want to protect kids?  I don't know whether to be annoyed or amused.

I admit to a mistake--you didn't propose semiannual interviews, but annual ones:
Quote from: sol
I would like those protections to be universal.  I believe that operating without them increases the risk.  In the absence of those protections for home schoolers, I think we should be leveraging the existing capabilities of public schools to benefit home schoolers, and that could take the form of an annual check in with the guidance counselor.  This is not government overreach, it's basic child safety.
In any case, that comment was four months ago, so I can understand not remembering it or shifting one's position over time.  No worries, it happens :)  I also get you and GuitarStv mixed up at times!

I agree that interaction with people outside the family is healthy and beneficial.  But setting an arbitrary requirement for it?  C'mon.  Are you going to impose the same requirement on kids when they're out of school for the summer?  What if a family goes to their lakeside cabin for a month out in the country?  What about families that live way out in a rural area?  As always, the devil is in the details.  Because incidents of abuse enabled by isolation enabled by homeschooling are (statistically) so rare (thankfully!), for every suspicious set of circumstances you come up with, you're going to catch way more innocents than abusers.

Sol did mention an annual checkup, which I think would alleviate most of your concern.



I also get you and GuitarStv mixed up at times!

No need to insult Sol!  :P
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:46:55 AM by GuitarStv »

frugledoc

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #643 on: May 24, 2018, 04:00:08 PM »
How does a parent in US show that they have the capability to home school their kids?  What quality control is there?

I'm sure some parents will do an excellent job and far exceed the capabilities of the public school system,  but it seems like bad parents can easily abuse the system without any checks.


leopard print

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #644 on: May 24, 2018, 07:37:26 PM »
There is a huge problem in the way this thread and our culture at large uses labels in these types of conversations.  "Homeschooled children" within the "homeschool community" and "homeschooling parents" are not accurate labels for abused children whose abusive parents keep their children out of public school in order to abuse them without being caught. This really has nothing to do with homeschooling. It has to do with public policy and protection of children who do not attend public school.  There is a huge difference between parents who do not allow their children to attend public school, and parents who choose to provide an education to their children at home. We need to stop calling both types of parents homeschoolers.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #645 on: May 24, 2018, 08:20:11 PM »
There is a huge problem in the way this thread and our culture at large uses labels in these types of conversations.  "Homeschooled children" within the "homeschool community" and "homeschooling parents" are not accurate labels for abused children whose abusive parents keep their children out of public school in order to abuse them without being caught. This really has nothing to do with homeschooling. It has to do with public policy and protection of children who do not attend public school.  There is a huge difference between parents who do not allow their children to attend public school, and parents who choose to provide an education to their children at home. We need to stop calling both types of parents homeschoolers.

I love it when new people show up and suddenly have interesting things to say!  It's like Christmas morning in here.

Zikoris

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #646 on: May 24, 2018, 08:38:59 PM »
I'm curious how they could possibly monitor whether or not kids have an "acceptable" level of interaction outside of home, and what would even qualify. Especially in really remote areas. When I lived in the far north as a teenager and homeschooled, who would have been qualified to judge one way or the other on my situation, I wonder? Definitely not coaches or girl scouts leaders or whatever, because they didn't exist in that fly-in town of maybe a few hundred people at best. Maybe the priest? We did have one of those.

I suppose someone could have called me once in awhile from the city, assuming they could get through on one of the five long distance lines the whole settlement shared.

The logistics of these things are always interesting.

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #647 on: May 25, 2018, 12:12:45 AM »
Sorry, but laws requiring that all home schooled children report to government officials every six months, or even once a year, are not reasonable, IMHO. It's amazing to me that any Americans would actually willingly tolerate something like that. This isn't Europe. Thankfully, in most parts of the US, parents still have the right to decide how their children are educated, not the state. It makes no sense to take away the rights and invade the privacy of millions of innocent homeschooling families just because of a few bad apples. Really bad parents with evil intentions who want to isolate their kids and abuse them will just ignore such laws anyway. If there's credible evidence of abuse, CPS should investigate but, otherwise, parents who choose to educate their children outside of the conventional public school system should be presumed innocent. The vast majority of homeschoolers are good people who shouldn't have to constantly worry that their kids might be taken away from them by some petty bureaucrats. This is a great example of the advantages of having enough FU money to just walk away from any state or country that tries to impose crazy laws like that. On a Friday afternoon in 2016, I didn't ask permission. I just told the office lady at my daughter's elementary school that she wouldn't be returning the following Monday because our family would be leaving the country over the weekend. The secretary asked how long we were planning to be away, and I said I wasn't sure. She said, "Oh, okay, well when you know the name and address of your daughter's new school please let us know and we'll forward her records there." I said I would let them know. That was seventeen months ago. In August we'll be returning home and enrolling our daughter back in the US public school system for 2018-2019. Thank god she'll finally be safe again. :)

runbikerun

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #648 on: May 25, 2018, 01:01:53 AM »
Sorry, but laws requiring that all home schooled children report to government officials every six months, or even once a year, are not reasonable, IMHO. It's amazing to me that any Americans would actually willingly tolerate something like that. This isn't Europe.

What's with the use of Europe as a pejorative?

shelivesthedream

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #649 on: May 25, 2018, 02:24:39 AM »
Sorry, but laws requiring that all home schooled children report to government officials every six months, or even once a year, are not reasonable, IMHO. It's amazing to me that any Americans would actually willingly tolerate something like that. This isn't Europe.

What's with the use of Europe as a pejorative?

Didn't you know that Europe is full of commies who want to steal your guns, your identity and your thoughts? It's used that way all over the forum and is extremely tedious for those of us who actually live there, especially when used in the same post as complaints about your shitty healthcare system.