Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 82103 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #550 on: January 19, 2018, 09:33:58 AM »
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I wasn't able to find any comprehensive studies that show large population abuse rates by parents and prevalence of homeschooling.  The data we have suggests that that parents/caregivers of children abuse at roughly the same rates whether they do education at home or send kids to a school.  It's certainly possible that people who homeschool abuse at a lower (or higher) rate, but I don't have data to support using that hypothesis.

Up the thread, you said that homeschooled children are at greater risk of abuse for lack of people evaluating them for abuse.

I don't believe I said this.  Could you quote the post you're referring to?

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #551 on: January 19, 2018, 09:38:59 AM »
I've only read the last page of this thread recently, but it seems to me, GuitarStv, that you could have been more specific about what kind of "false equivalence" you were talking about.

I think that the false equivalence is between different kinds of potential abuse:
- In a B&M school/other group setting such as coaching or scouts, it seems that the potential abuses will range from poor instruction quality, verbal abuse and humiliation by other students or authority figures (almost certainly the most common), to physical abuse/beatings (probably the rarest and most easily caught), to periodic/recurrent sexual abuse (most serious). 

The potentials for abuse outside the home are scary to a loving parent, because it feels that no matter how a good a parent you yourself try to be, you can't completely control the possibility that an aide at the nursery school might molest your toddler,  that the kids in your son's third grade class might bully him at recess, or that your teen daughter's beloved skating coach might slyly groom her for years of abuse. If you know that you yourself are good, then you can cut down on this potential abuse 100% by keeping your kids at home.

- Homeschooling abuse could include all of the above, and at its worst, could also include crazy stuff like starvation, imprisonment, severe beatings, with a higher frequency and permanence than a child would get by attending school... school abuse will be periodic and temporary, but a homeschooled child can't get away from the abusive home for any respite.

So the potential abuses are much more severe in homeschooling, which leads pro-B&M school advocates to fear the consequences of unregulated homeschooling. If you are a good teacher or coach, you know that kids from sketchy homes can be safe while they are with you, they can get a good free lunch and maybe breakfast at school, and watchful reporting can rescue a few from abusive homes.

The only sure way to prevent and stop abuse is to make sure that many eyes are on the kids at all times, and that the kids know how to speak up.  It's a puzzle: kids ought to  have access to a variety of trusted adults in whom they can confide; yet the introduction of each new adult brings a certain (hopefully low) probability that they will be an abuser.

Maybe homeschool families ought to at the minimum, submit their kids to annual testing/interviews... nothing too severe, just  checking for progress over the previous year in basic literacy/math, and maybe a 15 minute chat to hear about what the kids studied that year. That wouldn't help with the abuse, but it might help parents and school systems make better academic choices. Also every homeschooling kid ought to take a short class every year informing them about their rights over their own bodies, basic safety, and how to report any issues (as should regular school children).

I think the best solution is to move away from the all-or-nothing mindset (constant testing and ignoring individual student variations in the public schools, absolutely no regulation of homeschooled students) to providing a range of compromises that would bring oversight and standards to homeschoolers, yet allow for more presence and roles of parents.

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #552 on: January 19, 2018, 09:40:06 AM »
[split into two posts because of wall-of-text]

My personal experience is having my child in a public school system where over 60% of children came from near or below the poverty level, some of whom lived in the projects or were homeless, and who had very different needs from our family. I seriously considered homeschooling, but in the end, the best solution was for me to join the PTA. Although I poured 30 hours a week into the school, it was a wonderful life-changing experience, personally speaking. In three short years, the PTA helped bring many enrichment programs such as cooking classes, Science Fair, Health Fair, college planning info for parents, and after school classes to all the children.  We wrote grants, raised funds, and lobbied local government for resources, and also set up a culture of parental participation which appears to have lived on. Although we have since moved on, my son and I are still in contact with many families from that school. My son had no academic issues keeping up with a top-rated suburban school system after our move.

I think that most homeschooling comes from a perceived mis-fit between the family and the community.  In those cases where parents feel that the school will not/has not provided sufficient academic challenge, I encourage them to try sticking with the public schools a year or two and trying to make them a little better, before moving on.  You might be surprised at how much you can accomplish.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:52:20 AM by Poundwise »

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #553 on: January 19, 2018, 10:19:32 AM »
I really enjoyed your post(s), Poundwise. Thank you for those.

Some thoughts bouncing off them...

When I was considering how many different classes, groups, leaders, medical professionals, community members, and teachers my (homeschooled) son was with yesterday alone, I was thinking the ideal includes introducing new people. Sometimes a "community system" (e.g., family, or B&M school, or neighbourhood, or church) is too tight, with people protecting each other. Sometimes it's only the person brought in newly or occasionally that is willing to speak up, mess with the status quo -so bringing in new people can increase risk of abuse but it can also decrease it.

None of the schools my kid has been eligible for do free meals, so that part wouldn't be resolved for kids in areas we've lived in, unfortunately.

Of further tragic note, the latest article on the 13 imprisoned children said their space was subject to an annual visit by the fire marshall -no records for such visits have been located. At B&M schools and nonB&M schools, we have so many systems for regulation, yet so often these aren't implemented. Maybe we need to focus more on implementation of the systems already set up.

I wonder if we should have different words/phrases for homeschooling in which a child is fully engaged with a wide community, homeschooling that is used as a cover for imprisonment, and variables in between. The term "homeschooling" seems too broad to be able to discuss effectively. In this thread, it seems like the term is used to talk about a very wide range of scenarios. More effective would be to have separate threads, one talking about child imprisonment, one talking about other forms of child abuse (regardless of school location), one talking about unregulated nonacademic schooling, one talking about curriculum-based study-at-home, etc.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #554 on: January 19, 2018, 10:41:41 AM »
Quote
Sol sez, "Let me rephrase that in a more direct way:  home schooled kids are at a greater risk of sexual abuse by predatory adults than are public school kids."

Where is the data proving this?  Do you have data that the abuse incidence amongst homeschooled kids is higher?

Do you agree that the incidence of abuse goes down when everyone in an educational setting, child and adult, gets regular and comprehensive training in abuse prevention and identification?

Do you agree that public schools are legally required to provide such training, while home schools are not?

Do you agree that qualified professional social workers and therapists are better at dealing with these issues than the average American adult?  Do agree that these qualified professionals are consistently employed in public schools, and not in home schools?

Do you agree that public school curriculums are publicly evaluated to ensure they include subject matter about growth and development and personal safety, while home school curriculums are not?

Do you agree that all public school employees are legally required to undergo background checks, while home school instructors are not?

Do you agree that the vast majority of child sexual abuse victims are abused by a parent or close family friends and not by a public school staffer?

I feel like I am not the one who should be required provide potentially non-existent data on child abuse occurrence in home schoolers.  Public schools have extensive prevention policies in place that home schools do not.  I believe these policies help, and that circumventing them increases the risk of abuse.

Imagine two neighboring states, one with a motorcycle helmet law and one without.  Just because nobody has tallied the motorcycling fatalities for home schoolers compared to public schoolers does not mean that riding without a helmet is just as safe as riding with one.  Home schoolers are metaphorically riding without a helmet, because they do not have the same legally required protections in place.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #555 on: January 19, 2018, 01:48:15 PM »
Do you agree that the incidence of abuse goes down when everyone in an educational setting, child and adult, gets regular and comprehensive training in abuse prevention and identification?
I hope so, but I have not seen actual data to back up this claim. Seems like a reasonable hypothisis to study.
Do you agree that public schools are legally required to provide such training, while home schools are not?
Yes.
Do you agree that qualified professional social workers and therapists are better at dealing with these issues than the average American adult?
Most likely, yes.
Do agree that these qualified professionals are consistently employed in public schools, and not in home schools?
No. In my experience these professionals might be referred to by public schools, but are not employed there. Most public schools I've had experience have a nurse present a few hours a week at best.
Do you agree that public school curriculums are publicly evaluated to ensure they include subject matter about growth and development and personal safety, while home school curriculums are not?
Most likely, yes.
Do you agree that all public school employees are legally required to undergo background checks, while home school instructors are not?
Yes.
Do you agree that the vast majority of child sexual abuse victims are abused by a parent or close family friends and not by a public school staffer?
Yes. I believe this is largely due to the development of a trusted relationship which gets violated. Most pupils in public school are in a class of 20+ students with a teacher ~5 hours a day, ~5 days a week, ~9 months before moving to a class with a different teacher. I expect the rate of abuse by public school staff would go up as time spent with the staffer by a particular student goes up and/or group size that interacts with the staffer goes down.
I feel like I am not the one who should be required provide potentially non-existent data on child abuse occurrence in home schoolers.  Public schools have extensive prevention policies in place that home schools do not.  I believe these policies help, and that circumventing them increases the risk of abuse.

Imagine two neighboring states, one with a motorcycle helmet law and one without.  Just because nobody has tallied the motorcycling fatalities for home schoolers compared to public schoolers does not mean that riding without a helmet is just as safe as riding with one.  Home schoolers are metaphorically riding without a helmet, because they do not have the same legally required protections in place.
I feel like your argument is not strong enough to support your claim for a need to regulate homeschoolers without evidence - certainly not to the extent that some have suggested in this thread.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #556 on: January 19, 2018, 02:07:35 PM »
I feel like your argument is not strong enough to support your claim for a need to regulate homeschoolers without evidence - certainly not to the extent that some have suggested in this thread.

Not all states have helmet laws, either.  I'm comfortable stating that the risks are higher without the protections (which I did) without then claiming that the protections should be legally mandated (which I did not).

I would like those protections to be universal.  I believe that operating without them increases the risk.  In the absence of those protections for home schoolers, I think we should be leveraging the existing capabilities of public schools to benefit home schoolers, and that could take the form of an annual check in with the guidance counselor.  This is not government overreach, it's basic child safety.

Remember, I'm not the one arguing that home schoolers should be required to protect children.  In this thread, it has only been home schoolers arguing that they should not have to protect children, to which I responded that I think this is dangerous.  Let's lay the burden of proof on the side making extraordinary claims.

If you really think riding without a helmet is safer, please cite your evidence.  If you really believe that home schoolers see less child abuse, please cite your evidence.  Those claims both seem obviously unlikely to me, and I don't think it's fair to claim they are equally safe just because the people making the obvious claim that protections are protective don't yet have a comprehensive data set about your little niche topic.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #557 on: January 19, 2018, 04:03:26 PM »
I would like those protections to be universal.  I believe that operating without them increases the risk.  In the absence of those protections for home schoolers, I think we should be leveraging the existing capabilities of public schools to benefit home schoolers, and that could take the form of an annual check in with the guidance counselor.  This is not government overreach, it's basic child safety.
I agree that this type of contact would not be overreach. Earlier in the thread someone talked about weekly checks in home which I think is a bit invasive. The purpose of the visit should be to evaluate how education of the child is progressing for reporting purposes and to make recommendations to the parents.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #558 on: January 19, 2018, 07:14:36 PM »
Quote
Sol sez, "Let me rephrase that in a more direct way:  home schooled kids are at a greater risk of sexual abuse by predatory adults than are public school kids."

Where is the data proving this?  Do you have data that the abuse incidence amongst homeschooled kids is higher?

Do you agree that the incidence of abuse goes down when everyone in an educational setting, child and adult, gets regular and comprehensive training in abuse prevention and identification?


I feel like I am not the one who should be required provide potentially non-existent data on child abuse occurrence in home schoolers.  Public schools have extensive prevention policies in place that home schools do not.  I believe these policies help, and that circumventing them increases the risk of abuse.
You feel; you believe.  "Feeling" and "believing" are not "knowing."  "To measure is to know" - Lord Kelvin.  Come back with some data or else drop your assertion.  What you say may be true, but you have no proof.  Strong claims require strong evidence.

Quote
Imagine two neighboring states, one with a motorcycle helmet law and one without.  Just because nobody has tallied the motorcycling fatalities for home schoolers compared to public schoolers does not mean that riding without a helmet is just as safe as riding with one.  Home schoolers are metaphorically riding without a helmet, because they do not have the same legally required protections in place.

I think you need to re-read the forum rules.  This is a false equivalence. 

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #559 on: January 19, 2018, 07:15:37 PM »
Quote
I wasn't able to find any comprehensive studies that show large population abuse rates by parents and prevalence of homeschooling.  The data we have suggests that that parents/caregivers of children abuse at roughly the same rates whether they do education at home or send kids to a school.  It's certainly possible that people who homeschool abuse at a lower (or higher) rate, but I don't have data to support using that hypothesis.

Up the thread, you said that homeschooled children are at greater risk of abuse for lack of people evaluating them for abuse.

I don't believe I said this. 

You didn't.  I conflated you with sol.  Please accept my forums apology. 

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #560 on: January 19, 2018, 07:26:34 PM »
You feel; you believe.  "Feeling" and "believing" are not "knowing."  "To measure is to know" - Lord Kelvin.  Come back with some data or else drop your assertion.  What you say may be true, but you have no proof.  Strong claims require strong evidence.

I'm not the one making strong claims!  I'm the one making totally reasonable and ordinary claims like "child abuse prevention policies prevent child abuse".  You appear to be the one arguing for an outlandish position.  I'd love to see your data on that.

Do you also believe that safety harnesses are not safe?  That microwaves are not micro?

In the meantime, I'll stick with my assertion, thanks.  Background checks help.  Training helps.  Mandatory reporting helps.  Home schools are not required to have any of these.

Quote
I think you need to re-read the forum rules.  This is a false equivalence.

Oh please, explain to me which forum rule I have broken?

I'm arguing that safety policies are implemented for a reason.  As a society, we have decided that they make us more safe.  You are apparently arguing that it is a logical fallacy for society to implement policies to make us more safe?  It's very confusing.  Please clarify.

Also, if you really want to have a conversation about this topic, you might consider responding to some of the ten questions I asked you above. 

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #561 on: January 19, 2018, 08:26:52 PM »
You feel; you believe.  "Feeling" and "believing" are not "knowing."  "To measure is to know" - Lord Kelvin.  Come back with some data or else drop your assertion.  What you say may be true, but you have no proof.  Strong claims require strong evidence.

I'm not the one making strong claims!  I'm the one making totally reasonable and ordinary claims like "child abuse prevention policies prevent child abuse".  You appear to be the one arguing for an outlandish position.  I'd love to see your data on that.

What position am I arguing?  I asked you to substantiate your claim, that's about it.  I took no other position other than to say that the incidence of abuse amongst homeschoolers may be higher but requires study.  Your position seems to be that more regulations and bureaucratic oversight will make these children safer.  Of course, there is always a tradeoff between the number of regulations ostensibly made for our safety and our freedoms and privacy.  Like George W. Bush, nuance is not your thing, so you didn't explore any of these tradeoffs.  Your unstated assumption is that public school teachers are the main child abuse oversight arm of our government because of their training and frequency of interaction with students and that this should be extended to homeschoolers for their safety.  Obviously, unless homeschoolers make daily trips to a bureaucratic inspection center, your proposal will never result in the same frequency of interaction.  I wonder if the fear of civil and criminal penalties generates a lot of false positives from mandatory reporters and reduces trust between reporters and reportees and the public generally.   One would hope that teachers, cops, doctors and nurses would report on child abuse out of a sense of duty rather than fear of the rod. 

This N=1 case of 13 homeschoolers enslaved in a basement raised everyone's alarm.  Of course, it was reported in the press rather than the daily cases of successful homeschooling that others on this thread have described.  I am reminded of the Duggard girl's kidnappers whose parole officers failed in their duty to recognize a kidnapping and numerous other chances the state of California and federal government had to end the captivity of that girl but failed.  The negligence by mandatory reporters of child abuse was so egregious that the girl was awarded a $20 million settlement against the state by a judge.  So there's another N=1 for you.  I am making no policy prescriptions but am cautioning you against unsubstantiated bluster. 


sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #562 on: January 19, 2018, 08:52:51 PM »
I am making no policy prescriptions but am cautioning you against unsubstantiated bluster.

In this case, the entirety of my bluster is "home schoolers obviously lack the same protections against child abuse that public schoolers have."  Do you really disagree with that statement?

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #563 on: January 19, 2018, 09:34:38 PM »
I am making no policy prescriptions but am cautioning you against unsubstantiated bluster.

In this case, the entirety of my bluster is "home schoolers obviously lack the same protections against child abuse that public schoolers have."  Do you really disagree with that statement?

I agree that homeschoolers lack the daily interaction with a mandatory reporter like a public school teacher.  This may or may not matter.  Homeschoolers might be abused at lower rates thus have lower risk.  They might be abused at higher rates suggesting oversight is necessary.  You, as a scientist, should know that the way you model probability is to take data and categorize it.  You seem unconcerned whether your proposed oversight is warranted or necessary or whether it will create bad feeling amongst the people affected.  You want an Hobbesian Leviathan but not everyone else does.   

Let's explore some other possibilities.  What is the probability that a teacher reports abuse if he sees it?  I can think of plenty of examples of laws that are ignored; mandatory reporting may be no different depending on the circumstances.  Maybe in some poor or nonwhite school districts the teachers think, "Gee, if I report on this kid's parents he might end up in foster care which would make a bad situation worse."  I've heard horror stories from friends who've been in foster care. Maybe they see the government as The Man in certain areas. I can think of several areas of Los Angeles county where this might be true.  I can think of several rural counties where this might be true.  Maybe the teacher thinks, "If I report on this kid's parents, the parents or their out-of-town family will get revenge.
 Maybe the community won't trust me if I start reporting on parents."  For instance, people coming from Latin America have a vastly different relationship with their government than Americans and Canadians and all of the above might be true to them. Also, 75% of abuse is actually neglect which is much more difficult to prove.  Is the kid skin and bones or are his parents just ignoring him on their smartphones?   So, even if reporting is mandatory, it might not be doing much.  That's something worth measuring before saying whether it should be applied to more cases. Being someone who works for the government, you have incentive to believe government solutions are always good and effective.  Not all government solutions are good or effective.  Not everyone thinks the way you do.   

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #564 on: January 20, 2018, 08:34:36 AM »
I am making no policy prescriptions but am cautioning you against unsubstantiated bluster.

In this case, the entirety of my bluster is "home schoolers obviously lack the same protections against child abuse that public schoolers have."  Do you really disagree with that statement?

I agree that homeschoolers lack the daily interaction with a mandatory reporter like a public school teacher.

Do you agree that daily interaction with a mandatory reporter (like a public school teacher) is a protection?


This may or may not matter.  Homeschoolers might be abused at lower rates thus have lower risk.  They might be abused at higher rates suggesting oversight is necessary.

Evidence has already been provided that parents/caregivers are more likely to abuse children than any other group that the child will come into contact with.  This information is not being contested, correct?

Parents/caregivers are also the group of people who perform home schooling.  This information is not being contested, correct?

You're hypothesizing that parents who home school could be a distinct subgroup from other parents with regards to abuse practices - then arguing that conclusions drawn from what we know about parents in general therefore do not hold true.  That seems to be a misunderstanding of how science works.  You put forth the best theory supported by evidence at the time.  If evidence changes in the future, then the theory is altered.  It appears that you're asking for the alteration to theory without doing the legwork first.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #565 on: January 20, 2018, 09:08:09 AM »
Evidence has already been provided that parents/caregivers are more likely to abuse children than any other group that the child will come into contact with.  This information is not being contested, correct?

Parents/caregivers are also the group of people who perform home schooling.  This information is not being contested, correct?

Are B&M teachers (coaches, guidance councelors, etc.) not also caregivers?  I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I'm just wondering whether the statistics/evidence you refer to specifically excludes B&M school staff from the "parents/caregivers" category.

I'll admit I haven't looked closely at the statistics so I could certainly be wrong about this, but I always had the impression that child abuse was most commonly committed by people known to the child, versus strangers.  Not parents/relatives/daycare provider/babysitter versus strangers/B&M teachers.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #566 on: January 20, 2018, 09:29:49 AM »
Quote
You're hypothesizing that parents who home school could be a distinct subgroup from other parents with regards to abuse practices - then arguing that conclusions drawn from what we know about parents in general therefore do not hold true.

Actually, what I said was,

Quote
Homeschoolers might be abused at lower rates thus havelower risk.  They might be abused at higher rates suggesting oversight is necessary.  You, as a scientist, should know that the way you model probability is to take data and categorize it.

I then argued that regulations are not necessarily followed and gave some reasons why teachers in many locations might not comply with mandatory child reporting regulations.  To add further weight to this argument, there are 200,000 gang members in Los Angeles county out of 734,641 students in LAUSD.  Assuming at least half of the gang members are school-aged children and most join gangs as a surrogate family due to neglect/abuse, LAUSD should be reporting 1/7 of their students to child protective services.  Do you think this is the case? If so, do you think it's having a positive effect?

Admittedly, we have the exact opposite political philosophy.  Most people on here believe in a Hobbesian Leviathan state.  I do not. 

Either way, we have no data on the incidence of homeschooling abuse.  Your 'data' is that parents are most likely to abuse which is like saying the sun causes skin cancer.  Sure, but OF THOSE, poor parents are most likely to abuse. My point is that there are a lot of ways to parse the data to get more information about the TYPES of parents who abuse and you and sol are incurious as to whether homeschooling parents fit this profile suggesting you are arguing from doctrine, not data. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #567 on: January 20, 2018, 10:22:07 AM »
Quote
You're hypothesizing that parents who home school could be a distinct subgroup from other parents with regards to abuse practices - then arguing that conclusions drawn from what we know about parents in general therefore do not hold true.

Actually, what I said was,

Quote
Homeschoolers might be abused at lower rates thus havelower risk.  They might be abused at higher rates suggesting oversight is necessary.  You, as a scientist, should know that the way you model probability is to take data and categorize it.

So, you're hypothesizing that parents who home school could be a distinct subgroup from other parents with regards to abuse practices?


I then argued that regulations are not necessarily followed and gave some reasons why teachers in many locations might not comply with mandatory child reporting regulations. 

If there's a problem with paid professionals following policy in some locations, then that is indeed an issue that should be addressed.  I'm not entirely sure that I see the connection to parental abuse as related to homeschooling though.


To add further weight to this argument, there are 200,000 gang members in Los Angeles county out of 734,641 students in LAUSD.  Assuming at least half of the gang members are school-aged children and most join gangs as a surrogate family due to neglect/abuse, LAUSD should be reporting 1/7 of their students to child protective services.  Do you think this is the case?

I don't know.  I'd certainly hope so.  If not, then I'd argue that this particular school district has a serious problem and needs additional attention via various channels . . . special services, funding, better training, etc.  Again, in what way does this relate to parental abuse from homeschooling?


If so, do you think it's having a positive effect?

Yes, absolutely.

I've never claimed that school reporting is a panacea for all abuse.  Since most abuse comes from the home, schools are naturally limited in what they can do to protect children.  There is also a lot of complication involving social workers in a situation.  That said, having some recourse is better than having no recourse.


Admittedly, we have the exact opposite political philosophy.  Most people on here believe in a Hobbesian Leviathan state.  I do not. 

Using a political philosophy to alter how evidence is viewed/treated in order to get a particular desired result is not commonly bragged about.  Do you identify as libertarian by any chance?


Either way, we have no data on the incidence of homeschooling abuse. 

There is a poison.  It works to 95% efficacy on a population of rats.  You have a rat problem.  After killing a rat, you examine it and find out that it has 78,000 individual hairs on it's body.
 Maybe the rats with 78,000 hairs will be stronger after giving them poison, maybe they'll be worse.  We don't know.

I guess the best course of action is to simply learn to live with the rats since:
- we have no study showing the efficacy of the poison on rats with 78,000 hairs
- we have no way of knowing if every rat in your house has 78,000 hairs


Your 'data' is that parents are most likely to abuse which is like saying the sun causes skin cancer.  Sure, but OF THOSE, poor parents are most likely to abuse.

Yes, there is data to suggest that lower income results in higher abuse:  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/133/3/454.

This is not relevant to the discussion though, unless it can be demonstrated that income is significantly different for homeschooling parents.  So, let's check the stats:  https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/Homeschool/chara.asp

"...the Parent-NHES:1999 indicates that the household income of homeschoolers, reported in ranges from less than $25,000 to over $75,000, is the same as the household income of nonhomeschoolers. The same percentage of homeschooled and nonhomeschooled students lived in households with annual incomes of $50,000 or less (64 percent)"

It appears that median income for homeschooling is slightly higher, but doesn't sound like there's a really significant difference for the majority of children.


My point is that there are a lot of ways to parse the data to get more information about the TYPES of parents who abuse and you and sol are incurious as to whether homeschooling parents fit this profile suggesting you are arguing from doctrine, not data.

No, not incurious at all.  On at least three occasions now, I've requested information regarding the difference in abuse cases between parents who home educate and those who send children to school that you have been unable to provide.


Still unanswered questions:
- Do you agree that daily interaction with a mandatory reporter (like a public school teacher) is a protection?
- Evidence has already been provided that parents/caregivers are more likely to abuse children than any other group that the child will come into contact with.  This information is not being contested, correct?
- Parents/caregivers are also the group of people who perform home schooling.  This information is not being contested, correct?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 10:28:55 AM by GuitarStv »

PhilB

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #568 on: January 20, 2018, 10:26:25 AM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #569 on: January 20, 2018, 10:45:03 AM »
Evidence has already been provided that parents/caregivers are more likely to abuse children than any other group that the child will come into contact with.  This information is not being contested, correct?

Parents/caregivers are also the group of people who perform home schooling.  This information is not being contested, correct?

Are B&M teachers (coaches, guidance councelors, etc.) not also caregivers?  I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I'm just wondering whether the statistics/evidence you refer to specifically excludes B&M school staff from the "parents/caregivers" category.

I'll admit I haven't looked closely at the statistics so I could certainly be wrong about this, but I always had the impression that child abuse was most commonly committed by people known to the child, versus strangers.  Not parents/relatives/daycare provider/babysitter versus strangers/B&M teachers.

That was imprecise language on my part.  Technically, anyone who gives care to a child could probably be considered a care giver.  I meant 'primary caregiver'.

Primary caregivers typically include parents, foster parents, aunts/uncles/grandparents who are charged with looking after the child.  They're the people legally responsible for the care of the child (if you can claim tax deductions for the kid, you're the primary caregiver).  I've been using the term along with parent so as not to exclude people who aren't biological parents.

78% of all substantiated abuse cases involve the parent, and 90% of those investigated for child abuse are relatives.  (http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse).  These are the people most likely to be involved in homeschooling.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #570 on: January 20, 2018, 11:29:40 AM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults...

I really like how you put that, PhilB. I don't have this sense, though. I would agree that if a child is imprisoned or otherwise isolated, and no one aware of this is reporting it, and no one is completing the checks they are mandated to complete, any abuse by a relative that's occurring is less likely to be discovered and resolved.

The children in all homeschool families I know interact with multiple teachers/leaders/coaches every week, plus neighbours/community members. All access medical professionals as needed. Many also access a counsellor or similar professional every week or so. All do so year-round versus on the official school schedule.

These teachers/leaders/coaches/etc also have vastly better group environments for the kids in their care, so violence and surreptitious bullying is nil (so far in our experience). HS parents are often also more available during these hours, so when one's child is presenting poorly, the parent is available to remove the behaviour from the other children and access the next level of support for the child (they didn't get to do this when their kids were in B&M). In my experience, there is much more communication between these adults and the parents than between B&M school staff and parents, so the parent is enabled to provide more support re: child's needs, group's needs, or teacher's needs.

Serious stress (via any factor, whether too-low income or otherwise) is a trigger for abuse. For many families, moving a child from B&M schooling to homeschooling dramatically reduces the family's stress (for many reasons), so I would think that would help reduce vs increase potential for abuse. (An aside: Engaging with a family to relieve them of specific stress points also reduces potential for abuse. We can all do that, with any neighbour who is not committed to isolating.)

The only kids I've known to have experienced abuse were attending B&M school at the time. (I'm not saying abuse takes place at all B&M schools, or that all kids using B&M schools experience abuse.) In one case, it was only (as far as I know) by a family member. In one case, it was by a family member, other students, and school staff. In all other cases, it was by other students and/or school staff and not by a family member. Based on direct experience, I no longer have the expectation that school staff will fill a parent in on what's going on or connect a child with effective support. Some school staff people will do their darndest to ensure a child's wellness inside a difficult system, but their efforts may be frustrated by the system itself. I feel for them, as well.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #571 on: January 20, 2018, 01:25:38 PM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #572 on: January 20, 2018, 01:34:32 PM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.  Seems like a recipe for deliberately increasing the risk of child abuse, if you ask me. 

There may be lots of other good reasons to home school your kids.  Keeping them safer from child abuse does not appear to be one of them.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #573 on: January 20, 2018, 04:52:55 PM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.

All of the following have most if not all of these: teachers, tutors, educational assistants, youth centre leaders, camp leaders, other activity leaders, coaches, medical professionals, counsellors, other therapists. These are who our HS kids are with.

shenlong55

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #574 on: January 20, 2018, 05:00:00 PM »


What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.

All of the following have most if not all of these: teachers, tutors, educational assistants, youth centre leaders, camp leaders, other activity leaders, coaches, medical professionals, counsellors, other therapists. These are who our HS kids are with.

Is that a requirement of homeschoolers where you live or just how you choose to do homeschooling?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #575 on: January 20, 2018, 05:02:53 PM »
All of the following have most if not all of these: teachers, tutors, educational assistants, youth centre leaders, camp leaders, other activity leaders, coaches, medical professionals, counsellors, other therapists. These are who our HS kids are with.

Sure.  As previously noted, it's possible to provide your home schooled kids with a similar level of safety precautions that public school kids get by default.  But you're not legally required to, and not all home school parents will.  Which is why, as I keep saying, home school environments have fewer child abuse prevention safety measures than public schools have, and consequently why I think home school kids are, as an aggregate population, at greater risk of child abuse than are public school kids. 

This seems really obvious to me.  Safety precautions enhance safety.  It's clear that some people are too emotionally invested in the home school movement to acknowledge that.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #576 on: January 20, 2018, 05:21:22 PM »
Is that a requirement of homeschoolers where you live or just how you choose to do homeschooling?

There are different options here -ultimately, we can choose any degree of administrative activity, but are not allowed to neglect or abuse. The HS families I know all choose lots of engagement with different people -regardless of the level of administration they've chosen- because our whole goal in HS is meeting our kids' needs :)

sol, I'm for requirements (not only in homeschooling households, though). Most of us are already well exceeding any requirements people would want to see anyway. I would want to see certain requirements for all people, regardless of school location or age.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #577 on: January 20, 2018, 05:31:59 PM »
Most of us are already well exceeding any requirements people would want to see anyway.

That could be totally true, but the fact is that you can't possibly know this for certain.  Not every single one of those adults is legally required to undergo a background check before they can interact with your kids.  You can personally make a judgement, but unless you're running background checks then you would never know if one of those seemingly-normal adults is actually a registered sex offender, or domestic abuser, or ex-con, or living under an assumed name.

Schools check.  Every single person, every time, no exceptions.  Do you?

If not, then I think you're being less protective than the public school is.  Don't worry, it's probably fine.  What's the worst that could happen?

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #578 on: January 20, 2018, 05:40:23 PM »
sol, are you saying teachers, youth leaders, coaches, counsellors, educational assistants, and medical professionals in your region aren't required to have a background check?? If so, I would be much more concerned with resolving that issue than with resolving homeschooling.

I know *I'm* required to have a background check done -including the higher level for persons volunteering with vulnerable populations- for almost every activity in which I'm with kids who aren't mine. I have at least four per year done, per volunteering with different groups that include kids.

(I would also urge people not to rely on a background check as the primary gauge of safety. Many people who abuse have clean criminal records. This is an easy point on which we can become complacent. Clean criminal record check does not equal not criminal. Other gauges and systems are much more important. Maybe that could be a separate thread?)

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #579 on: January 20, 2018, 07:04:09 PM »
I know *I'm* required to have a background check done

Is every parent of a home school kid required to pass a background check, the way every teacher of a public school kid is?

Because I might actually support that plan.  I was previously trying to make space for home school families to do their own thing, but you've convinced me they need to be screened and registered before they are allowed to interact with anyone's children except their own.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #580 on: January 20, 2018, 07:52:04 PM »
Is every parent of a home school kid required to pass a background check, the way every teacher of a public school kid is? [...] you've convinced me they need to be screened and registered before they are allowed to interact with anyone's children except their own.

Yes, we're required by most (all?) organizations to do these (and often more) when supporting others' children in activities such as youth group, scouts, brownies, art class, tutoring, etc, same as parents with B&M schooled kids are.

People caring for their own children, people spending informal time with other people's kids, and (last I knew) people babysitting, aren't -whether they are a parent of a B&M schooled kid, a parent of a homeschooled kid, or a nonparent.

It sounds like you're concerned with screening and regulating for any adults (and perhaps older youth in roles of responsibilities) who spend time with any children, regardless of where they have school. That could be a neat topic for another thread.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #581 on: January 21, 2018, 08:36:16 AM »
Is every parent of a home school kid required to pass a background check, the way every teacher of a public school kid is? [...] you've convinced me they need to be screened and registered before they are allowed to interact with anyone's children except their own.

Yes, we're required by most (all?) organizations to do these (and often more) when supporting others' children in activities such as youth group, scouts, brownies, art class, tutoring, etc, same as parents with B&M schooled kids are.

People caring for their own children, people spending informal time with other people's kids, and (last I knew) people babysitting, aren't -whether they are a parent of a B&M schooled kid, a parent of a homeschooled kid, or a nonparent.

It sounds like you're concerned with screening and regulating for any adults (and perhaps older youth in roles of responsibilities) who spend time with any children, regardless of where they have school. That could be a neat topic for another thread.

Assuming that a person who does youth programs at a church, is a childcare worker at a public school, or works with a scouting organization has had a background check (for example) is not s safe assumption to make:

Quote
Some laws requiring criminal checks of home health aides and attendants only cover employees. Other laws may include those providing direct care and substitute caregivers. In addition, mandated settings vary. For example, many States require criminal record checks for daycare centers, some cover schools, some include licensed home healthcare facilities, and some cover any setting in which people have supervisory or disciplinary authority over a child. Specific exceptions, however, often exist. With respect to services for children, exceptions have included:
■ School-based childcare.
■ Youth recreation groups such as Scouting or camping organizations.
■ Childcare affiliated with a religious group.
■ Youth programs operated in adult facilities.
■ Babysitting arrangements.
■ Single-family “nanny” situations.
■ Daycare situations in which fewer than a specified number of children—
often three, four, or five—are cared for.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/167248.pdf

It sounds like screening practices vary widely . . . from as little as a personal interview to as much as an FBI background check and psychological screening.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #582 on: January 21, 2018, 09:15:01 AM »
Assuming that a person who does youth programs at a church, is a childcare worker at a public school, or works with a scouting organization has had a background check (for example) is not s safe assumption to make:

I agree.

I know which of ours "require" them (since I volunteer at a lot of them and read the forms for stuff I register my kid for), but I also know there have been cases of organizations "requiring" them and then not bothering to do them, with abusers gaining access to vulnerable people.

I put very little trust in CRCs. They only tell us about the minority of abusers who've been found and processed as such. I rely more on other factors. Even so, no one can guarantee safety. That's where additional pieces come in: empowerment and voice for vulnerable people, people who believe them, people who advocate for follow through on known issues, effective rapid-response therapies for recovery, etc.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #583 on: January 29, 2018, 11:09:16 PM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.  Seems like a recipe for deliberately increasing the risk of child abuse, if you ask me. 

There may be lots of other good reasons to home school your kids.  Keeping them safer from child abuse does not appear to be one of them.

I went ahead and got some data for you on this.  It appears that your odds of your child being a victim of sexual misconduct by someone in the public education system are about 1 in 10:
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #584 on: January 30, 2018, 08:40:47 AM »
What I'd hope we can all agree on is that for the population of parents who do abuse their kids, homeschooling is likely to reduce their risk of being found out.  For the population of parents who don't abuse their kids, homeschoolers would quite possibly have lower abuse rates due to reduced exposure to other adults (always assuming this isn't homeschooling in a priest-heavy environment).
Except many homeschooling parents on here have specifically said they expose their children to multiple adults.

Adults without background checks, adults without child abuse prevention training, adults without mandatory reporting requirements.  Seems like a recipe for deliberately increasing the risk of child abuse, if you ask me. 

There may be lots of other good reasons to home school your kids.  Keeping them safer from child abuse does not appear to be one of them.

I went ahead and got some data for you on this.  It appears that your odds of your child being a victim of sexual misconduct by someone in the public education system are about 1 in 10:
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

And those are abuse cases where there's a chance of someone finding out about it!  It would be interesting to find out what the numbers related to sexual abuse are for home schooled children.  There is some preliminary research that suggests that abuse from home schooling occurs at a higher rate:

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/commentary/some-preliminary-data-on-homeschool-child-fatalities/

"Our preliminary research suggests that homeschooled children are at a greater risk of dying from child abuse than are traditionally schooled children. This preliminary finding is based on an analysis of the cases in our Homeschooling’s Invisible Children (HIC) database and on national government reports on child maltreatment. When we compare the rate of child abuse fatalities among homeschooled families to the rate of child abuse fatalities overall, we see a higher rate of death due to abuse or neglect among homeschooled students than we do among children of the same age overall."

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #585 on: January 30, 2018, 04:55:10 PM »
Did you actually read any of the articles on that website? I clicked through a bunch of them and, in most, the child was in the public school system and was pulled to "homeschool" once there was suspicion. That's not a homeschooled child. That's an abuser hiding. Big difference!

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #586 on: January 30, 2018, 05:21:36 PM »
No true Scotsman fallacy.

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #587 on: January 30, 2018, 05:45:23 PM »
Seriously?????
If these kids had continued to be followed... If the public school personnel had called CPS (or whatever they are called now) and reported that there were suspicions and that once the parent was confronted with the suspicions, they pulled their child to "homeschool", and CPS had checked up on it, there would have been no death. 
More regulations on homeschoolers would not have stopped these kids deaths/abuses. The regulations already in place didn't stop them so...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #588 on: January 30, 2018, 06:51:03 PM »
As a former Scouter, I can confirm that Scouts Canada has done police checks on all leaders for years.  There are also guidelines so that it is difficult for anyone to take advantage of a youth wile they are at an activity.  Of course this is not a guarantee.

When Missy and I were a Therapy Dog team, I had to have another police check because I was working with vulnerable elderly people - and some of them were definitely vulnerable.

A friend confided to me that he had been abused as a child, by a sports coach - and the coach did this so much that the kids thought this was almost normal.  That coach had great grooming skills, unfortunately.  He would be dead of old age by now.

As an aside, once we are in contact with the general public (as children or adults), people can seem to be perfectly nice and ordinary, when they are not.  The alleged* gay village serial killer just arrested in Toronto looks like a nice old guy.

*I put in "alleged" because he has not been tried yet - but there was a restrained man in his home when the police arrested him, and buried remains in his yard, and as he is a landscaper, think of all the garden renovations where he could bury remains.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #589 on: January 30, 2018, 07:46:23 PM »
No true Scotsman fallacy.

You're not careful with data or analysis.  In the case of Musa Muhammed listed on the website, his kids were public schooled AND the teachers had called CPS AND CPS had investigated but did nothing.  THEN he homeschooled.  Polygamy is also illegal and Muhammed was married to 3 different women.  The analysts on the website excluded 1999 and earlier from their analysis because it was more difficult to find news reports of homeschool fatalities before 2000 when internet news exploded. 

I think the only recommendations that website makes that I can get behind is that child abusers should not be allowed to homeschool (why are they still with their kids?) and that parents who are under investigation by CPS should not be allowed to homeschool. 

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #590 on: January 30, 2018, 08:08:28 PM »



And those are abuse cases where there's a chance of someone finding out about it! 
ACtually, in many cases where public school personnel have offended, parents or students report it, not the mandatory reporters.

Quote
It would be interesting to find out what the numbers related to sexual abuse are for home schooled children.  There is some preliminary research that suggests that abuse from home schooling occurs at a higher rate:

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/commentary/some-preliminary-data-on-homeschool-child-fatalities/

"Our preliminary research suggests that homeschooled children are at a greater risk of dying from child abuse than are traditionally schooled children. This preliminary finding is based on an analysis of the cases in our Homeschooling’s Invisible Children (HIC) database and on national government reports on child maltreatment. When we compare the rate of child abuse fatalities among homeschooled families to the rate of child abuse fatalities overall, we see a higher rate of death due to abuse or neglect among homeschooled students than we do among children of the same age overall."

Just so everyone's clear, you are attempting to argue inductively that because the rate of child abuse fatalities is higher amongst homeschoolers, homeschoolers abuse more often in all forms.  You are generalizing homeschool abuse rates based on specific evidence (homeschool abuse fatalities).

Inductive logic works as follows:
Quote
Inductive reasoning is the process of reasoning from the specific to the general. Inductive reasoning is supported by inductive logic, for example:

From specific propositions such as:

This raven is a black bird.

This rifle recoils when it is fired.

To general propositions:

All ravens are black birds.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

In contrast to deductive reasoning, conclusions arrived at by inductive reasoning do not necessarily have the same validity as the initial assumptions.

Bayesian statisticians state that statistics is a branch of philosophy because statistical models only hold under definite propositions (see above).  The point is, you can't always reason inductively.

I read through the data on that website.  The homeschool fatality data was gathered from the news.  I have no problem with this.  The analysts say they got abuse rates and fatalities from the CWIG website.  I couldn't find any raw data on there and the graphs weren't binned the same way the HIC data was.  I clicked through some slides
http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/63_Child_Mortality.pdf
and found that the raw data was likely gathered from here:
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D76

I couldn't figure out what fields the analysts configured to get the data report.  They binned the data by year.

From there, they computed the proportion of homeschool fatalities each year over the number of homeschoolers for that year.  The number of homeschoolers WEREN'T COUNTED - they were estimated from an estimate of the PROPORTION of children homeschooled in the US every year.  I actually have no problem with this if the estimate is off by less than a percent.  If it's off by 10% or more, it sure would account for the greater RATE of fatalities amongst homeschool abused children.  This proportion was compared to the rate of public schooled child abuse fatalities.  Hopefully, they subtracted the number of homeschool children from the number of children in the denominator of this proportion.

I will ask the HIC analysts for their raw data, or at least which fields they plugged into the CDC website, to duplicate their research.   

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that HIC is right and homeschoolers are dying at 10% higher rates.  This suggests a fairly weak relationship between mandatory reporting from teachers and saving lives.  The teachers have a huge "last mile" problem: CPS.   THere are several reports on the HIC website where teachers reported and it didn't help.  The other thing you notice from the reports is that abusive parents* move around a lot.  Were EVERY suggestion on the website implemented, I don't think it would help the problem one iota: the parents would simply pull up stakes and move if they weren't allowed to homeschool in one area.  Who would check if they were enrolled in public school wherever they moved?  The parents could just tell neighbors, "Yeah, my kids aren't truant, they're homeschooled."  So if the laws were changed, it would only increase the burden on people who follow the law already like so many laws do. 

*Why do so many of these homeschool lunatics end up in California - the Land of the Fruits, Nuts, and Flakes?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 08:10:05 PM by Lance Burkhart »

Teachstache

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #591 on: May 01, 2018, 06:43:17 PM »
Disclaimer: My bias: I was a public school teacher for 7 years. I have a master's degree in elementary education. Then I was an instructional coach for teachers (as an "expert" regarding teaching itself), working with teachers to help improve their teaching, and leading professional development sessions for my last year before I FIRE'd. I very likely will homeschool my kids, when the time comes.

I get the impression that a lot of home schoolers feel like primary school and high school teachers are just random adults who like kids.  They don't recognize any value in getting a degree in education.  They have no exposure to pedagogy, or strategies for behavioral problems, or specialized support for kids with disabilities.  They think any moron can stand at a blackboard and say "reach chapter 3, test on Friday" and call themselves a teacher.

I don't disagree, for the most part, but I do need to point out that parents don't need to have strategies for kids with disabilities, if their kids have disabilities.   They only need to be experts in strategies for their own kids.

Many parents, regardless of schooling choice, that I have met, have done a LOT of work to become specialists in what their own kids need.  Autism, high achievers, anxiety, dyslexia,  when a need is identified, interested parents often become that kid's specialist.

My kid has cancer (for real).  I don't need to take him to an oncologist who will work with him, I just need to become an expert myself and I will give him the appropriate chemos.  After all, I am an expert on strategies for my kid.  I've done A LOT of work to become a specialist on what my kid needs.

Sound pretty reckless and irresponsible, right?  And with cancer, that attitude could kill him.

My kid has Autism too (for real) and a learning disability (for real) and is also Gifted/Talented (for real). 

I also find it reckless and irresponsible for me to try to teach him instead of a special ed teacher.  Because even though I know my kid and they don't, they have a lot of experience with kids with his disabilities.  He started high school this year.  His teacher has been teaching high school kids with disabilities for literally decades.  Not to mention things like the fact he is in an AP class for a subject that I didn't take a singe class of in college.
 On the first day of school, I had exactly 1 day experience working with a high school student with a disability.

From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

I'm coming in late on this, but as someone who has a doctoral degree in Education policy & a child with Autism, I appreciate that there are specialists who understand what my child needs in a way that I do not. I'm highly educated, specifically in Education, but I need someone else to help my son with his social and language needs. Homeschooling isn't right for every family, and ours is one of those.

Goldielocks

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #592 on: May 06, 2018, 12:19:33 AM »
I don't see the connection between access to specialists and public education.

I became as much as an expert as I could for my son. I quickly sussed out that there was a lot a did not know, and only some could I figure out. School said he was a "late bloomer" when it came to education and that he would "grow of out if".   That resulted in my paying a private specialist for an assessment, and paying another team for support and treatments that were needed.   With that as a back up, and only then, could I get even a token of help from the public school to address in-school needs. 

 They certainly were not going to have my kid anything other than typical classroom situation because he was quiet and non-disruptive and able to quietly get grades called "Approaching standard", which they thought was ok.

When I say that parents become their kids' own specialists, and advocates, I certainly did not mean that parents would not reach out to and use experts... that part is vital for the parent to learn.



Livethedream

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #593 on: May 07, 2018, 12:49:16 AM »
Hope I can add a new perspective.

Probably one of the younger people here, 31. I was homeschooled traditionally and non-traditionally. Early years I was taught just by my mom. We had multiple groups full of homeschool families who would meet up for park days, do school at each other’s houses, working parents would organize field trips to their jobs. The second type was “college” model. Classes MWF and at home T TH. Sports, extracurricular activities, and field trips were available.

Homeschooling isn’t just a school choice, it’s a lifestyle choice. I loved it. It allowed me to travel, work, and learn many life lessons not afforded to youth who attend “regular” school.

Example; senior year I half half days, so MWF I would be done at noon. Before/after basketball season, I would go straight to my job after lunch those days. I would work 1-5 MWF. T and TH, I would work 8am-12pm. I never had to work a weekend job, had more money then all my friends, and learned great time management skills.

There is such a negative stereotype that I feel cake out of the 90s and 2000s that homeschoolers aren’t socialized. People like to pull the 1% of homeschoolers that are super conservative, dresss differently, and some of who do not get enough socializing in, and act like the rest of the 99% are the same.

No facts to back this up, just my biased opinion: if you took 100 random highschool seniors from a public hs then a homeschool, I’m willing to bet the homeschooled kids will have a much larger percentage that are able to act appropriately “socialized” entering college/the work force.

We are about 90% sure we will be homeschooling our two boys.
#1. School has been set up and organized better for girls to succeed. (Do 5 mins of research and you might be pretty surprised)
#2. We are able to receive funds to buy approved curriculum and extracurricular activitie with a county program that also provides oversight. (Religious curriculum is not approved for reimbursement)
#3. Individualized learning plans. Flexibility is amazing, we can challenge our kids and introduce them to things not feasible at public schools.
#4. Length of school day. Traditional schools have lots of wastes time that our children are not learning, some of that has to happen, some is waste, others is your kid is 1 of 30 in their class, good luck getting much 1-1 help. Homeschooling is much shorter school days, more time for kids to play (google the importance of kids recess and the impact on grades, not to mention unstructured outdoor play). This leaves time to pursue hobbies, passions, and just free time.
#5. Flexibility to travel and not worry about missing school. I, and many friends were able to go on trips, had we been in public school would not have worked. Bring homework with us, or do it ahead of time. We plan on traveling quite a bit with our boys and know they will learn many great life skills from this.
#6. I could go on and on about the pros, in fairness I’ll list some negatives.

Negatives
#1. Time consuming for the stay at home parent.
#2. Pretty much only works if there is a stay at home parent.
#3. It’s not for some kids, my sister hated it so my parents sent her to a traditional school which she enjoyed.
#4. Can get expensive if you aren’t careful.
#5. Stay at home parent now spends even more time with said children and gives up his/her free time, job, or other responsibilities.
#6. It takes a lot of energy from both parents.

Hope this added something new.

I want to close by saying I believe homeschooling is more of a lifestyle choice compared to being an educational choice. Taking schooling out of the equation, I believe a typical homeschool family will look much different vs a traditional school family. In the end, engaged parents willing to fight for their kids is what counts.

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #594 on: May 07, 2018, 04:38:12 AM »
Awesome post @Livethedream!  I'll just add one thing to your #2 negative (that it only works with a stay at home parent).  It can work with the solo parent/both parents working, but it is much harder.  We homeschooled for three years with me working part time, and DH full time.  It's doable with schedule juggling and help -- both family and hired help -- but it takes some ninja-level organizational skills.  It can be done, though it is much easier with a SAH parent, which is what we are now doing.

All that said -- we homeschool for both educational reasons (public school was unable to meet the needs of one of our kids) and a family lifestyle choice, and we love it. 

partgypsy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #595 on: May 07, 2018, 10:14:34 AM »
Probably from watching too much news, there definitely seems to be a pattern of kids who were abused, killed, disappeared where the parents are moving around, and the kid is withdrawn from public school. After a child is not enrolled in school, it does seem there is not a basic safety check done on the child. This has nothing to do with the high achieving, organized families who home school. But for the vast majority of kids, it does seem being enrolled in public school is a very basic, minimum safety check for that child, because the child has to show up every day and there are eyes on that kid. If there isn't an equivalent daily/weekly check for children not enrolled in school, there should be.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:31:27 AM by partgypsy »

e34bb098

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #596 on: May 07, 2018, 05:23:21 PM »
Probably from watching too much news, there definitely seems to be a pattern of kids who were abused, killed, disappeared where the parents are moving around, and the kid is withdrawn from public school. After a child is not enrolled in school, it does seem there is not a basic safety check done on the child. This has nothing to do with the high achieving, organized families who home school. But for the vast majority of kids, it does seem being enrolled in public school is a very basic, minimum safety check for that child, because the child has to show up every day and there are eyes on that kid. If there isn't an equivalent daily/weekly check for children not enrolled in school, there should be.

There's unfortunately a large conspiratorial mindset among religious homeschoolers (I had a friend who got sucked into that world) that the government is trying to outlaw homeschooling, replace parents, steal your kids away, and indoctrinate them into evolution and teh gays.  This causes them to rabidly resist any kind of oversight on the grounds that it is a slippery slope to concentration camps for Christians.  This in turn gives cover to actual abusers, who can often gain sympathy and even legal funding from the homeschool community for resisting CPS.

goatmom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #597 on: May 07, 2018, 06:18:15 PM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

zoltani

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #598 on: May 07, 2018, 06:37:37 PM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

At birth children should be placed in a government sanctioned conditioning facility and have limited contact with their parents.


sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #599 on: May 07, 2018, 07:18:35 PM »
More than 80 percent of children that die from child abuse in the US are not yet old enough to go to kindergarten.  Where are the safety checks for these kids?

At birth children should be placed in a government sanctioned conditioning facility and have limited contact with their parents.

Alternate answer:  "None, which is they have a higher rate of child abuse."

Maybe, just maybe, the reason why child abuse deaths drop off so dramatically at Kindergarten age is precisely because there are suddenly other adults involved to report and investigate suspicious circumstances. 

I feel like goatmom was intending to argue that external oversight over home situations is unnecessary, but her example sort of proves the converse.  When kids have professional oversight by adults not in their immediate family, the abuse rates apparently drop considerably.