Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 72679 times)

lemonlyman

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2017, 11:19:06 AM »
Not by definition. If we volunteered our $$ to the public fund and some of us exercised our freedom of choice to use it, not fascist. However, forcing a good/service/behavior on a population is fascist. It's all in how it's done.

I don't think fascist means what you think it means by any definition.

goatmom

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2017, 11:34:01 AM »
Hello  -  My children are currently in school but I have homeschooled in the past.  We were military and did find many homeschoolers living on base.   I lived on bases that had homeschool liasons, homeschool gym classes, and homeschool electives.  I think as homeschooling has grown in popularity, more military families see it as a good choice.   Many of the DOD schools have been closed.  It can be tough for military kids to go to the local public school.  Also, we found that moving was disruptive and left gaps.  Especially when states have such different start and end times for the school year.  I support homeschooling as a choice. I would not want a tax break for homeschooling but I appreciated all the services the military provided.

FIRE Artist

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2017, 12:01:33 PM »
I am curious to know if there are laws protecting the states from future lawsuits due to people potentially receiving sub standard education through religious private schools and/or weakly regulated homeschools. 

The province of Quebec recently got burned by this issue.  Is it an issue in the US?  Is basic education a legal obligation of the state?

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-october-8-2017-1.4327802/deprived-of-a-secular-education-former-hasidic-man-takes-the-quebec-government-to-court-1.4339058



Jrr85

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2017, 12:15:15 PM »
Those who are against homeschooling either (1) don't understand the data, (2) don't understand the positive financial implications or (3) disagree with it due to a religious or anti-religious viewpoint.  Show me otherwise.

The thread that started this discussion makes the relevant distinction that people were generally not opposed to home schooling, they were opposed to the proposed new tax breaks for home schooling.  It's a subtle but absolutely vital difference.

I think you should be allowed to pursue pretty much whatever crazy shenanigans you like, up to and including teaching your children that animals can talk and magic is real.  That's totally fine with me.  But I don't think the rest of us taxpayers should be subsidizing your activities.

So...
homeschooling = totally fine
tax breaks for homeschooling = an affront to the Constitution

I'm not sure you understand what subsidizing means.  We have decided that it is beneficial to use tax dollars to educate children.  Children go to public school, and it's paid for by tax dollars.  That's a subsidy. 

If tax funds are made available for home schooling, that is still arguably a subsidy, or depending on the tax burden of the taxpayer in question, arguably not.   But it would almost certainly in every situation be a much smaller subsidy than the students that attend public school full time get.   

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2017, 12:23:54 PM »
I am curious to know if there are laws protecting the states from future lawsuits due to people potentially receiving sub standard education through religious private schools and/or weakly regulated homeschools. 

The province of Quebec recently got burned by this issue.  Is it an issue in the US?  Is basic education a legal obligation of the state?

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-october-8-2017-1.4327802/deprived-of-a-secular-education-former-hasidic-man-takes-the-quebec-government-to-court-1.4339058

If there are any such laws or lawsuits, I thing we also need to include our public schools, some of which are awful. 

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2017, 12:44:24 PM »
I'm actually not against homeschooling and have even considered it in the past.

But on the subject of giving tax breaks to homeschoolers, how is it different from the following situation?

Suppose a family feel that the local police force is not doing a good enough job keeping them safe and so they hire bodyguards. Or they live in a gated community and have a gatekeeper and guards to keep bad elements out.  Why shouldn't we give them a tax break, since they are presumably removing some of the burden on the local police force?
 

BookValue

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2017, 12:47:49 PM »
My wife and I are thinking of homeschooling our daughter. Public school failed both of us in different ways. I never learned how to study and coasted through with good grades. University was a rude awakening. My wife was told by her teachers (in elementary school) she would never understand the subject matter and should stop trying. She also was relentlessly bullied, so hooray for the socialization that is so important. She has a masters degree now and was top of her class, so clearly intelligence was never an issue.

Our daughter is very bright, way ahead of her peers. We have her in preK now and the first grade teacher at the school has told us she already knows material that is just now being covered in her grade. We don't want her to become bored and coast through school. The public school gifted programs amount to spending an hour a week in a special group. I'm sure that will keep her stimulated and engaged...

Public schools here allow homeschoolers to sign up for specific classes, join sports teams, etc. Same with some of the local colleges. State parks, museums and zoo's have a lot of activities during the day as well. There are tons of activities to learn outside of a home setting.

RangerOne

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2017, 12:50:37 PM »
Quote from: TexasRunner link=topic=83349.msg1818441#msg1818441
To address #1, [b
homeschoolers consistent perform better than their peers on testing and have higher college GPAs given that parents include them in some form of structured education[/b] (whether that be a structured, solo lesson plan, homeschool group, or online education such as Khan Academy).

Forgive me I didn't have time to fully read through your source for this, but I would posit one caveat not to dispute this claim but to put in some perspective.

The very act of homeschooling a child requires a great deal of effort and parental involvement which automatically places the student in question in a higher achieving category. Consistent parental involvement in a child's education is probably the number one marker for doing well. Motivation and handwork are the most important factors in doing well in college, not specific scholastic background. Kind of the same as in the workplace after college. Intelligence and previous course work are a wash after about 1 year in. You close the gap in the first year if there was one, and move on to course work that is new to everyone regardless of previous work.

Public school includes the performance of students who may have very little parental involvement in their scholastic lives and thus I would expect on average for their performance to get pulled down by those not provided with added family support needed to instill a strong drive to perform when individual motivation falters which it often does.

I think most of the reaction against home schooling is because their is a perception that most home schooling is done to shelter their children from the "truth" and bury them in what can be seen as religious propaganda. Which minus the negative buzz words, is true in my limited experience. Home schooling has become the last tool to escape a secular education or expensive private religious institution.

   I have had a couple co-workers who home school their kids and yes they are both very religious. And yes I have none trivial disagreements with them on issues like abortion and probably evolutionary theory. But in general they are good people just trying to give their kids a good education. And I see no evidence that their education or intelligence will prevent them from giving their kids a fine education even though they will believe a few things I certainly don't agree with.

I think the right move is to fully support private school and home schooling. And we should keep specific religious teaching out of public schools based on the foundation that secular science and teaching are not laid out as a specific attack on any particular religion and therefor are a good neutral standard even though yes there are cases where they are in direct conflict.

The price we should have to pay for having that secular neutral ground is we have to give some consideration to those who feel forced to avoid public school to provide an education more in line with their beliefs. That consideration most easily comes in the form of tax breaks to offset the added personal cost put upon them.

Parenting is extremely personal and there is probably not a parent alive who doesn't hold some belief or parenting tactic that I don't disagree with. But I think most of the time you just need to shut up and let people raise their kids. It is not our place to critique every parenting choice if they not putting the child under extreme physical or mental duress.

Jrr85

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2017, 01:04:27 PM »
I'm actually not against homeschooling and have even considered it in the past.

But on the subject of giving tax breaks to homeschoolers, how is it different from the following situation?

Suppose a family feel that the local police force is not doing a good enough job keeping them safe and so they hire bodyguards. Or they live in a gated community and have a gatekeeper and guards to keep bad elements out.  Why shouldn't we give them a tax break, since they are presumably removing some of the burden on the local police force?

If they were actually removing burdens from the local police force, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that.  But for the most part, while there is probably a deterrent effect, it's not actually deterring crime but displacing it to less protected areas.  And it doesn't remove the necessity for the police to respond to crime that takes place in the gated community.  So you're talking about maybe reducing the need for patrols in a small area.  But probably most importantly, even if they did actually remove the burden, you're talking about a burden that amounts to well under a $1,000 per person, even in poorly run citizens that spend a lot of "law enforcement" dollars on bloated pensions earned in the past, and if a community were to pay for private security, they probably would be paying less than $1,000 per person. 

Contrast that with removing $7k to $14k of burden per kid for each kid taken out of the public school, and spending say a $1k or $2k on the low end (and much more than that in personal time) if they home school or $7k per kid if they have a very cheap private school.   

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2017, 02:11:35 PM »
I'm not sure you understand what subsidizing means.  We have decided that it is beneficial to use tax dollars to educate children.  Children go to public school, and it's paid for by tax dollars.  That's a subsidy. 

I agree that you do not.  Or are at least using the word in a different way than I intended.

Public schools are not a subsidy, they are a public service.  Like police or roads or buses, they are a service provided to everyone for the good of our society.  You don't have to personally use them to benefit from having them.  Everyone pays, everyone benefits, our civilization thrives.

Home schoolers are asking for additional personal benefits beyond this communal service available to everyone, if they want tax breaks.  A tax break to you, if you home school, does not benefit society.  It benefits you.  That's why it is a subsidy.

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2017, 02:22:32 PM »
I'm actually not against homeschooling and have even considered it in the past.

But on the subject of giving tax breaks to homeschoolers, how is it different from the following situation?

Suppose a family feel that the local police force is not doing a good enough job keeping them safe and so they hire bodyguards. Or they live in a gated community and have a gatekeeper and guards to keep bad elements out.  Why shouldn't we give them a tax break, since they are presumably removing some of the burden on the local police force?

If they were actually removing burdens from the local police force, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that.  But for the most part, while there is probably a deterrent effect, it's not actually deterring crime but displacing it to less protected areas.  And it doesn't remove the necessity for the police to respond to crime that takes place in the gated community.  So you're talking about maybe reducing the need for patrols in a small area.  But probably most importantly, even if they did actually remove the burden, you're talking about a burden that amounts to well under a $1,000 per person, even in poorly run citizens that spend a lot of "law enforcement" dollars on bloated pensions earned in the past, and if a community were to pay for private security, they probably would be paying less than $1,000 per person. 

Contrast that with removing $7k to $14k of burden per kid for each kid taken out of the public school, and spending say a $1k or $2k on the low end (and much more than that in personal time) if they home school or $7k per kid if they have a very cheap private school.

I think the financial issue is the easiest to solve, although because every student and school system is different, figuring out a fair amount to "reimburse" a home/private schooling family seems complicated. Although student education is most often described in cost per student, it seems to me that it would cost almost the same to run a classroom with 15 students as it costs to run a classroom with 20 students, but of course crowding classrooms over a certain threshold will deteriorate education for all.

But the point I'm trying to make is this:
The hire of a private bodyguard, or life in a gated community, has primary benefit to the person receiving these services. The protection is likely to be superior to that of the average taxpayer.  If we subsidize this protection with tax dollars, don't we get the right to say that he share some of his protection with other taxpayers?  Also,  what's this person's motivation to improve the local police force or safety in the community, once his safety needs are met?

Similarly, if we partially subsidize a homeschooling family or private school, doesn't the government get some say on what is taught? Or if the third grade is very crowded one year, can we ask the private school or homeschoolers to take on some extra students? Also, how do the subsidies affect the motivation of a private schooler or homeschooler to help improve the system for everyone once their needs are met? What will happen to public schools if we incentivize the wealthiest and the most engaged parents to leave the system?

However, the issues about how much control that other taxpayers should fairly expect to receive in any private or home school-- sticky.

And finally, I think a real issue that lies behind perceived anti-homeschooling attitudes is this (this is NOT my personal opinion, btw, so please don't get your dander up):
Choosing to pull your kids out of the local public school system implies a disengagement from the system and from the community.  It implies that you are going to put your dollars and volunteer hours not towards making everything better for everyone, but just to helping your own kids and a select few.  It might even imply that the rest of us are not good enough for you and your kids.

Obviously, neither of these implications are necessarily true. In many cases, the one-size-fits-all education that public school can provide is not sufficient for kids who are at extreme ends of various bell curves.  In many cases, people who give generously to their communities also wish to give their own children the very best education they can, and that doesn't seem to be wrong either. But to admit this,  goes against the egalitarian spirit of the US.

[Edit: Oh, Sol just stated one of my points in many fewer words.]
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:28:54 PM by Poundwise »

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2017, 03:07:57 PM »
It's been stated on here that homeschoolers are trying to get subsidies for their homeschools. Actually most homeschoolers are not interested in government money for their homeschools. Why? Because with government money comes government control. Maybe not right away but it will eventually come. No thanks!

As far as the 529 (yes, I know it was rejected), I don't really understand what the issue would be with that being okay for homeschools. I know it's tax free but it would be my money that funded the account so why couldn't I use it for my homeschool?
But again, no thanks, on the vouchers, etc.

seattleite

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2017, 03:16:28 PM »
It always surprises me that homeschooling isn't a larger part of the Mustachian world-view. They are such a perfect match.

We homeschool our children. We do it because schools aren't an optimal use of our children's time.

For a quick background, we are atheists therefore we aren't doing this for religious reasons. We believe in medicine and science and vaccines. We believe in education but don't believe that the pieces of paper that say you have a Doctorate in Philosophy mean you are educated. My wife and I both went to college and earned bachelor's degrees in science and then went out into the corporate world to save money so we could FIRE.

School is great if the parents can't read and need someone educated to educate their children. And they are great for parents who are still working full time and need free childcare. And there are probably other great reasons for school. But if you have the time (and patience, LOTS of patience) then homeschooling (and honestly unschooling) are no worse than school and most of the time I think much better.

There are soooooooo many parallels between MMM and homeschooling (especially unschooling):

- Being able to do what you want with your time without a boss telling you that you have to be working during certain hours
- Forging your own path despite it being so different than what "normal" people do
- Dealing with haters who are probably just envious and scared that they made the "wrong" choices and don't want to own up to their fears
- Doing stuff yourself and learning how to be self-sufficient
- Investing in yourself (or your kids)

If our kids were in school they would be doing stuff like memorizing the 120 counties in Kentucky and getting an education aimed at the median child, or probably more likely, the slowest child. At home they can get everything they get in school (if you care) in like 3 hours and then have the rest of the day to play. And if you are more of a believer in unschooling, that is learning through doing, then it's hard to tell the difference between school and life. A project that's interesting covers many subjects but because you can't do that in a school and there are no good metrics that school administrators can hang their hat on they don't do it this way.

If you FIRE with school-aged children you can spend your time with them. You can work on projects together that teach them and interest you too. You can travel whenever you want with no regard to externally imposed schedules from work or school. This is our first year after I FIREd in August and so far it's been going great.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 03:21:14 PM by seattleite »

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2017, 03:25:47 PM »
There have been some extremely good points in this thread.  I'm also glad that it has remained rather civil, so thanks for that.

I'm actually with Sol on the taxes/subsidies...  I would rather not have subsidies/deductions/credits for religious or pretty much any other incentives.  Personally, I would prefer we have no deductions, including state or local taxes, mortgages or anything else.  I also wish that the corporate tax breaks would be removed (and inherent to that change, all loopholes removed).  My logic is as follows:  A business exists to make money, that is their sole directive and (optimally) they would do so in the most efficient method possible or consequently cease to exist.  Any government influence via taxation or deduction is therefore introducing inefficiency in the markets.  If government had not been subsidizing residential housing (but not apartments) sine the 80's, then maybe we wouldn't be having a housing crisis (and maybe 2008 wouldn't have been so severe, though I know that was a host of other factors as well).  There may have been more non-residential housing available in big cities, etc.  But we will never know because the federal government has screwed up the markets (for over 30 years!!!!!) through the mortgage deductions.

The same with homeschooling. I don't need the federal subsidy to make an elective choice (homeschooling my kids) especially when it could create incentive for swaths of 'unfit homeschool parents' to enter the 'homeschool market', thus requiring mandated testing or standards or whatever.  I would rather they stay out of it if it includes those new requirements / restrictions. 

Please keep up the other discussions.  I am seeing quite a few different viewpoints (outside of the federal subsidy discussion) that I hadn't considered.



(Edits because I don't prrof read or speil very well apparently lol)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 03:30:01 PM by TexasRunner »

seattleite

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2017, 03:25:56 PM »
Home schoolers are asking for additional personal benefits beyond this communal service available to everyone, if they want tax breaks.  A tax break to you, if you home school, does not benefit society.  It benefits you.  That's why it is a subsidy.

Errr, I don't expect a subsidy for my homeschool and I had never even heard of this stuff before this thread. The other homeschooling families I know know they are paying property taxes for schools they don't use and they are ok with it. Homeschooling is for people who are able to kick it financially and we help those in need by paying taxes for poor people to be educated.

I agree with you here. I just don't want you to lump all homeschoolers together as people who want public money for their essentially private education.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2017, 03:29:36 PM »
It's been stated on here that homeschoolers are trying to get subsidies for their homeschools. Actually most homeschoolers are not interested in government money for their homeschools. Why? Because with government money comes government control. Maybe not right away but it will eventually come. No thanks!

As far as the 529 (yes, I know it was rejected), I don't really understand what the issue would be with that being okay for homeschools. I know it's tax free but it would be my money that funded the account so why couldn't I use it for my homeschool?
But again, no thanks, on the vouchers, etc.

If the Cruz amendment had allowed 529 money to be used for homeschool expenses I probably would utilize it and save a small amount. In no way would it provide an incentive to homeschool though. Contrast that with paying $5-10k per year per child for private school which is a much bigger tax break if you can put that money straight into a 529 and then draw it out to pay tuition.

If the state said "here's the $7k we would have sent to your local public school per child, you can take it to a private school or use if for homeschool expenses" that would be a much bigger deal (and very unlikely to ever happen). Frankly we could never spend close to that on homeschooling unless it was to just hire tutors or put our kids in various classes. Our homeschool expenses (aside from the opportunity cost of being a single-earner household) pay for textbooks/lesson plans, books to read, and supplies. Last year we spent less than $1,000 and this year we spent about $1,500. Mostly it was because we decided we would rather buy a lot of books then get then from the library so we could have them for the next child and didn't have to worry about taking them back. We also purchased some art supplies and an art course for our oldest son that he's enjoyed. The costs for our third, fourth, and fifth child will be much less since we can reuse much of the material and don't need to buy a lot of the books they'll be reading. On the other hand we might spend a few hundred dollars and some science things like LEGO Mindstorms since our boys love LEGOs and would love to be able to build a robot.

If the government is going to give me a tax break I'll take it. But I would much rather stick with the current system of paying for it out of pocket and the government control stay limited to an annual notification that we're homeschooling our children. Luckily New Mexico does not have the onerous requirements of some states that require you to submit lesson plans and curriculum for review or require standardized tests, etc.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2017, 03:40:30 PM »
There was a post challenging the independence / veracity of the sources and self-selective data.

I was going to respond to it with more reference material and identify that those studies were mostly graduate thesis but it seems that post has been edited or removed......?

Anybody else find it?

No biggie if someone changed their mind, but its useful to the conversation to address arguments as they stand, even if the original author changes their mind (since others may be thinking the same thing...)

MrsPete

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2017, 03:56:03 PM »
In answer to your title question, it is okay to think whatever you wish about homeschooling -- pro or con -- because this is America, and we're all entitled to hold /express our own opinions.

Personally, I suspect if we could accurately measure ALL homeschooling families, we'd find that homeschooling families are not all that different from public school and private school families:  Some kids are doing fabulously well, while others are mid-range, and others are badly behind. 

I know a number of homeschooling families from church, and I see a great deal of variability in their kids.  One family I know seems to be doing really well -- their oldest has finished college with a nursing degree, their two middle kids are knocking the top of of college, and their youngest will begin in the fall.  Good for them all!  I know another family whose oldest child entered a small Christian college, and she left after a single day of classes -- she was afraid of being in a big class.  Yeah, the socialization stereotype doesn't come from nowhere.  In my personal experience, most of these homeschooling kids go to community college. 

And I see a small-but-horrible segment of students at the high school where I teach who leave "to be home schooled" because they're not making it in public school.  I am teaching one of these students right now in my elective course; she opted to leave public school because she was convinced that she could graduate earlier if she were home schooled ... but she remained in my online elective course.  She's been out of her core classes for about three months now, and she tells me she hasn't actually started any coursework at home yet -- she and I get along well, and she comes by to see me regularly.  My prediction:  She'll either return to public school or will drop out altogether; if she were going to home school, she'd have already dug into her work.  These kids are just as real as the homeschooling success stories, but no one ever includes them in the statistics.

The very act of homeschooling a child requires a great deal of effort and parental involvement which automatically places the student in question in a higher achieving category. Consistent parental involvement in a child's education is probably the number one marker for doing well. Motivation and handwork are the most important factors in doing well in college, not specific scholastic background. Kind of the same as in the workplace after college. Intelligence and previous course work are a wash after about 1 year in. You close the gap in the first year if there was one, and move on to course work that is new to everyone regardless of previous work.
Absolutely true.  Plenty of research shows that the #1 predictor of academic achievement is parental involvement in the child's education; by definition, GOOD homeschooling parents are involved. 

I think the financial issue is the easiest to solve, although because every student and school system is different, figuring out a fair amount to "reimburse" a home/private schooling family seems complicated. Although student education is most often described in cost per student, it seems to me that it would cost almost the same to run a classroom with 15 students as it costs to run a classroom with 20 students, but of course crowding classrooms over a certain threshold will deteriorate education for all.
I am strongly against any type of "reimbursement" for homeschooling.  Why?  Think it though:  Plenty of people in our society will do anything to get a bit of money.  If people were allowed to pull their kids out of school and essentially "get a paycheck" for doing it (in my county, the schools get something like $5,500/student per year), a fair number of people who have no intention of actually homeschooling would do it.  If these folks don't actually do much of anything, what's the fallout?  The kids don't learn, so either they aren't able to join the work world, or they return to the public school system badly behind. 

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2017, 04:08:25 PM »
So far this school year, I've if my kids has been on the wrestling team, the after school science club, the national hint society, and now the swim team.  These are great opportunities for a kid, and they seem hard to reproduce in sa homeschool environment. 

How do you deal with that?  Do your kids just not do team sports or activities with their friends from school?  These are all "free" programs to our family provided by the school district by our tax dollars, and I'm guessing they make up a nontrivial portion of the schools budget.

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2017, 04:16:27 PM »
Michael in ABQ, I agree, it would be very difficult to spend that amount on homeschooling. We are currently homeschooling 5 (have a preschooler, toddler and two college kids too) and spend about what you do - between $100-1500 a year. If we had $7K a kid, the only way I could see to spend it would be to travel to study - go to Gettysburg to study the Civil War type stuff. And, like you, I prefer it to remain the way it is - no government funding, no government interference.

MrsPete, the girl in your online class isn't homeschooling. She's doing nothing. Just because she says she's homeschooling doesn't make her a homeschooler. If I said I was public schooled but didn't show up for class, I wouldn't be public schooled so...
But, yes, there are some good and some bad in homeschooling just like in public and private schools. But for those families who really do homeschool, I would say most of the kids do really well. Most of the ones I know go to colleges/universities not community colleges unless that is where they can get the degree they want. One of my sons is at a community college but that's because it's the only place he can get the welding degree he wants. The universities don't have that degree so. But then again, there is nothing wrong with a community college - it can be a great way to save money while getting your first couple of years under your belt.

Sol, many states allow homeschooled students to participate in extra curricular activities and/or take a few classes at the school if they desire. Two of my kids go to the local public school once a week to participate in a club. One of my now college kids did basketball for a little while at the local public high school. There is also dual enrollment at a community college or university. Or joining a YMCA to take classes or rec teams for sports. Or homeschool coops. There are many ways to find the things your kids want to participate in.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2017, 04:23:09 PM »
How do you deal with that?  Do your kids just not do team sports or activities with their friends from school?  These are all "free" programs to our family provided by the school district by our tax dollars, and I'm guessing they make up a nontrivial portion of the schools budget.

Texas has provisions that homeschoolers get to do any of the extracurricular stuff with public school.  I had many homeschool friends when did Track and Field with me in High school.  We also already knew each other from summer training / competitive track and field outside of school, but as those parents pay taxes that thoroughly cover the extracurriculars, I have no problem with that system.

Someone upthread posted that only about 2%-3% of Texas school's funding comes from the federal coffers so homeschooler use of the programs is definitely not causing a financial burden (at least in my state).

Lichen

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2017, 04:27:40 PM »
So far this school year, I've if my kids has been on the wrestling team, the after school science club, the national hint society, and now the swim team.  These are great opportunities for a kid, and they seem hard to reproduce in sa homeschool environment. 

How do you deal with that?  Do your kids just not do team sports or activities with their friends from school?  These are all "free" programs to our family provided by the school district by our tax dollars, and I'm guessing they make up a nontrivial portion of the schools budget.

In my state we can participate in these through our local public schools, since they are supported via our tax dollars. We have done band, Lego League, art clubs, and an engineering club. My kids had no interest in school sports, so we never participated in those. We have to fill out a form to participate, which I believe then increases the funding of the school providing the club/class materials. Another option is private clubs -- YMCA, community centers, scouts, sports leagues through the rec center or one of the organizations like YSA or YAFL. There are also homeschool groups that run these sort of things, but they weren't for us. Too disorganized.

The funny thing is, around here you can get state money to homeschool. WA has the ALE program (Alternative Learning Environment). One of the ALE options is a parent-teacher cooperative school. You can take twice a week classes at the school and get reimbursed for certain homeschool materials. In exchange, the school district gets to claim the kid as a part-time attendee, which increases their funding and this is shared by the parent. Naturally, all materials purchased must be approved by the school, which means nothing religious in nature. We looked into the program, but the education standards were too low for our liking.

When my son decided to participate in running start so he could enter college early, we simply walked into the local high school and told them our plans. They wanted to test him before signing the forms, but waived the requirement after seeing his PSAT scores. The high school is motivated to let homeschoolers do the program under their name, I'm assuming because it adds another student to the roster for funding purposes.

Personally, I am against homeschool/private school subsidies. They would most definitely be abused. The ALE program homeschool subsidy has been abused often in WA. To the point where they used to simply give the parents a check, but now all materials must be ordered through the school to verify they are actually purchased. The amount has also dropped from a couple of thousand to a couple hundred.

mm1970

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2017, 04:28:13 PM »
So far this school year, I've if my kids has been on the wrestling team, the after school science club, the national hint society, and now the swim team.  These are great opportunities for a kid, and they seem hard to reproduce in sa homeschool environment. 

How do you deal with that?  Do your kids just not do team sports or activities with their friends from school?  These are all "free" programs to our family provided by the school district by our tax dollars, and I'm guessing they make up a nontrivial portion of the schools budget.

It will probably depend a lot on the community.  Our community is big enough to provide these options.  Not for free, but not terribly expensive.

An extracurricular sport will run you a couple hundred dollars a year.  Baseball, soccer, track or cross country.  Swim teams will be more expensive, but those aren't available at elementary anyway.  True, there are free things at the elementary level above grade 3.  Basketball, soccer, track, and music being the big one.  My son has been able to learn flute at the school starting in 4th grade, and join the (free) district band.  Also gets to compete in the math superbowl.

mm1970

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »
Quote
School is great if the parents can't read and need someone educated to educate their children. And they are great for parents who are still working full time and need free childcare. And there are probably other great reasons for school. But if you have the time (and patience, LOTS of patience) then homeschooling (and honestly unschooling) are no worse than school and most of the time I think much better.

I think this is going to vary a LOT.  Aside from the bullying (because in my rural area, being smart was not a popular thing), I had a great experience in school.  I learned a lot.  My teachers taught me a great deal.  They got me excited about the subject matter.  They encouraged me to go to college (something that my parents would have NEVER done).

I resent the implication that school is "free childcare" also.  Yes, I work FT because I like it.  I send my children to public school because I believe in public school.  I had a good experience.  My husband had a good experience. Our public schools were good enough to get us into our colleges of choice (top 10 engineering schools), and these were your run-of-the-mill public schools in blue collar areas.

The patience is a good point because I'm simply not a patient person (better than I used to be) and not a teacher.  Doesn't help that my eldest is resistant to learning from me, when I try to help him with math superbowl homework.  "You don't know how to do it!"  "Dude, let me read the stupid problem.  I'm an engineer, I CAN DO MATH."  My husband is actually the math superbowl teacher for my son's class. So he has a bit more patience than I do, but certainly doesn't want to be a teacher.  Or, he would have been a teacher.  Or gone on to academia after his PhD.

Your assertion that home schooling is better than public school is based on a pretty small section of population.

mousebandit

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2017, 04:56:58 PM »
Sol, I have to say you have a lot of opinions that I've never seen.  I wasn't homeschooled, but was brought up in a poverty-based, very isolated area, and am realizing of late, how little I've strayed out of that mindset.  Anyways, I had previously been in the camp of not wanting to engage at all in the public education realm, feeling like I wasn't part of it, didn't want anything to do with it.  I can definitely say that I'm being persuaded otherwise.  I still want to home educate my children, but I am seeing everyone's points about funding the public school system as a safety net and need public service for those that need it. 

I think your description of the goals of the public school system, being more about babysitting and preparing for life as a worker, and much less about educating, is spot on.  And I think that is so sad.  Other countries manage to educate their children in a public system, why should we settle for just keeping them (mostly) from being out on the streets during the day?  As everyone keeps saying, I think it goes back to a lack of parental involvement and a lack of parents feeling responsible for their children's education.  When my older kids were in public school, the general consensus among parents was that it was the school's responsibility to educate them, we just had to feed them a good breakfast, dress them warmly, and get them there on time.  SHowing up for concerts and parent-teacher meetings was above and beyond, and marked you as a pillar of the PTA.  I probably would still want to homeschool my children regardless of the offerings at the public schools, but I do believe that they are failing our children and our society in the goal of education, and most parents just don't care.   

As to the costs of homeschooling, we have gone through a LOT of curriculum changes since we started.  We began with a curriculum that was going to run a couple hundred dollars per child, per year, when the initial costs for books was spread out, but have since made multiple changes and now utilize a program that costs almost $1000 per child / per year.  Still much less expensive than private school, but with 4 kids, it's an investment, and the bottom line for us is that it gets done, and the academics are solid.   

We are getting to the age now (oldest is 9) that are searching for outside activities to involve the kids in.  Our issue is more one of geographical isolation, rather than lack of options based on being homeschoolers.  In our little town, there's not much going on.  The middle school and high school kids have some sports teams, and very minimal choir / music options.  (In our state, we can choose to have our children participate piecemeal in these things, for the small costs of participation fees.)  Outside of the schools, there are Boys & Girls Club sports teams for basketball, and Little League in the spring.  Oh, and there's a few 4H groups.  If we go 50 miles away to the nearest big town, there's a YMCA with homeschool PE classes twice a week, lots of choices for martial arts, dance classes, gymnastics, drama clubs, chess clubs, etc.  I've just started checking them all out, and it's impressive.  We are intending to spend a lot more time in the "big town" specifically so our children can participate in these activities.

I'm also fascinated by the observations that homeschool families are flakey, not staying consistent in their participation with activity groups.  In retrospect, I can see we would have fallen into that category, as we have started participating with groups, both in our small town, and the big town 50 miles away, and ended up dropping them, for various reasons.  But I can see how that reputation gets earned, and I will be thinking on that a lot.   

I really appreciate this thread and the candid opinions being given in a civil manner.  As always, I get a lot to chew on when I hang out on the MMM forums.  Viewpoints that just don't come around much in my neck of the woods.  Thanks, guys. 



Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2017, 05:03:38 PM »
There was a post challenging the independence / veracity of the sources and self-selective data.

I was going to respond to it with more reference material and identify that those studies were mostly graduate thesis but it seems that post has been edited or removed......?

Anybody else find it?

No biggie if someone changed their mind, but its useful to the conversation to address arguments as they stand, even if the original author changes their mind (since others may be thinking the same thing...)
Why do you think that matters?

JLE1990

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2017, 05:10:02 PM »
So I just want to comment as someone who was homeschooled with 6 siblings(A lot of friends from my hometown's college were homeschooled). The problem with homeschooling is that the vast majority of parents who do it are doing so for the purpose of controlling what the children learn both academically and behaviorally. You are taking upon yourself to decide what is important and not important for the child to learn. That is fundamentally narcissistic and will have debilitating impact on their futures in proportion to level of controlling you are. You are not depriving them of "socializing," you are depriving them of the ability to interact with their world independently and form their own opinions of the things they interact with. Not only that but you are depriving yourself of the ability to parent them. Do you plan to keep them at home for the whole lives and never let them interact with anyone who will say 'bad words' and tell them that Santa Claus isn't real? Whose going to help them through it when someone bullies them, or do you think that no one has to deal with difficult people as an adult?

Then there's religion. My family is very religious, for all the wrong reasons. Are you aware of the concept of free will in the Bible? I hope so, since each soul's individual choice to embrace God is what decides whether they go to heaven or hell. What you're doing is limiting their freedom by only allowing them access to what you decide they should learn so they will be good Christians. Are you teaching them objectively about other religions? Or are you implanting your own preferences to minds that are so young they don't know the difference between hyperbole and reality?

Quote
been taught that up is down and wrong is right
This illustrates so clearly what is behind you're thinking. What exactly do you mean by wrong? Let me guess one example: Homosexuality is a sin and anyone that is "queer" is going to hell. Please don't tell me how you're raising your kids to "treat everyone with respect no matter their race, religion, or creed." You simply cannot do that and teach them some of the things that modern day Christians (falsely) believe Christ said(LBGTQ is a great example; he never mentioned it).

Lastly, thinking interacting with siblings is going to teach him about to interact with other people is so shortsighted and ignorant I can't actually believe you think that. Do you think that will help him interact with girls and women sexually/romantically? Please say no. Do you have any idea how hard it is to learn the subtleties of creating interpersonal relationships when you are already an adult?

Homeschooling is an incredible opportunity to teach your kids to think for themselves and not fall victim to the pitfalls that are in any modern society. But you have to do that by teaching them to think for themselves and not take anyone's word, including yours. You can not be a good homeschool parent without being aware of the fact that any system you design is going to have flaws in it, and the more you can let your child experience the world on their own the better off they will be. Yes, you should teach them what things are wrong with modern society and why, but there is a lot of good in society and they need to be exposed to it to learn about both parts. You're job as a parent is not decide what person your kid will be, it's to mentor and train them to decide for themselves. Instead of sheltered they need to be flooded with as much experience of the world as they can handle, and that includes public school at some point.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of homeschool parents are controlling douchebags that think they know how to raise their children but are really destroying their children's ability to become well-rounded functioning members of society.

And just in case you don't want to take my anecdote that being sheltered and homeschooled is torturous once you become an adult look at this study: 45% of home-schooled adults reported having suicidal thoughts. To put that in perspective, that is 2.5x the national average of teenagers that think about suicide. But please tell me more about how home-schooling is protects kids from the mental anguish of bullying.

https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/dear-homeschooling-parents-lets-talk-about-suicide/
https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/suicidal-teens/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 06:03:17 PM by JLE1990 »

Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2017, 05:17:36 PM »
Texasrunner, is this the post you were looking for?

With regards to #1:

Sorry, but if you read the studies discussed you'll realize a fatal flaw in them - they compare "random samples/statistics from all public schools students" to "samples of only those who chose to provide the information for homeschooling" in pretty much every case. They are also almost all financially motivated (i.e. paid for) by people and/or organizations promoting homeschooling. In fact, the first of the studies linked includes the following in the conclusion:

Quote
They sometimes do not have the skills or funding to homeschool their children so the children do not get the education they should.


Even the "best" results from the large scale studies (Rudner, 1999; Ray, 2009) only use data from those homeschoolers who chose to respond to a voluntary study. Do you think the parents who homeschooled their kids and ended up with kids who couldn't get into college were likely to voluntarily report their failure??

Even Rudner, in his original report that proponents try to use as support, said "This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It should not be cited as evidence that our public schools are failing. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled."


Poundwise

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
Here's a local example from my state about what can happen when a group gets too disengaged from public schooling.  In East Ramapo, two thirds of the residents are ultra-Orthodox Jews, who do not use the public schools.  They ran for school board and won a majority.  After that they began steadily cutting funding for the public schools, which combined with a state funding equation unequipped for a situation where private school students outnumber public school students, led to the payment of $7.3 million to law firms by the school board over 6 years, and a funding crisis that led to a mass layoff of 90 teachers in 2012 and the closure of the beloved marching band for years.

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2014/11/17/east-ramapo-monitor-wants-state-intervention/19191367/
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2014/09/30/east-ramapo-band-director-returns/16500689/
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183757/east-ramapo-schools

MrsPete

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2017, 06:11:14 PM »
How do you deal with that?  Do your kids just not do team sports or activities with their friends from school?  These are all "free" programs to our family provided by the school district by our tax dollars, and I'm guessing they make up a nontrivial portion of the schools budget.
Yes and no.  School sports (in my area anyway, and I assume everywhere) must be self-supporting.  So, in reality, football and basketball (and to a lesser extent, volleyball and wrestling) "carry" tennis and the other smaller sports.

MrsPete, the girl in your online class isn't homeschooling. She's doing nothing.
Totally right, but if you ask her, she'll tell you she's a home schooler -- and I know other kids who've left school, are similarly doing nothing, yet they call themselves home schoolers.  Would a casual observer know the difference between these kids and your kids?  No.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2017, 06:41:42 PM »
Texasrunner, is this the post you were looking for?


Yup!  Thanks, I'll respond to it when I get the chance.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2017, 06:45:57 PM »
I was going to respond to it with more reference material and identify that those studies were mostly graduate thesis but it seems that post has been edited or removed......?
Why do you think that matters?

Because they specifically said that that the studies I quoted were bought and paid for, thus implying the data was manipulated or corrupted.  Thats why it matters.

I'll reply to this post tomorrow when I have time.

[The Studies] are also almost all financially motivated (i.e. paid for) by people and/or organizations promoting homeschooling.

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2017, 07:06:56 PM »
MrsPete, you're right, a casual observer wouldn't know the difference. Sad for that girl. Now instead of graduating early which she probably could have done by homeschooling, she'll probably graduate late or not at all.

JLE1990, I'm sorry you had such a horrible homeschool experience. It sounds like it has continued to cause you problems. It sounds like your parents chose to isolate you instead of just homeschool you.
Although most homeschool parents, me included, do teach their children from their belief system, that isn't a bad thing in most cases. Everyone does that - you will (or do) also if you have children. You can't help but do that. If I sent my kids to public school, the government would be teaching them from their view point. Again, that's just the way it works. I know for us, we teach them as we believe when they are young. Once they enter 7th grade and can think more critically and logically, we expose them to other beliefs and talk about them. They are allowed to have different opinions from us but they need to back up the opinions and be willing to listen to ours. So far, my oldest two (the others are still in our house - minors- so have not totally formed their own opinions) do have the same core beliefs as we do but different views on some things. That's fine - I realized while they were in the womb and kicking me when I wanted to sleep, that they were separate entities.
As far as the interacting with people by playing with siblings, Michael in ABQ (I believe that's who said it) still has young children - under age 9, if I remember correctly - so it wouldn't be appropriate for his children to learn to relate romantically/sexually with other people at all in any situation at this point. But a peer relationship with siblings is a good way to learn to interact.

FINate

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2017, 08:07:58 PM »
We've considered homeschooling, may go that route in the future, but for now have decided for public school. We are Christians but don't see any conflict between science and our faith so this issue is not a problem for us (yes, we believe in evolution and don't think this in conflict with the Bible - for those genuinely curious this lecture sums it up: http://www.timmackie.com/science-and-faith/). In our area an organization exists for homeschoolers (technically organized as a charter school), so structure and support and resources are provided, and we get plenty of socialization through an extensive network via family and church. Our main motivation for considering homeschooling are the time and flexibility aspects. When I observe my kids at school, and when I ask about their day, it's clear that much of the time is 'filled' -- line up, do this, go here -- busy work really. Not the fault of faculty, just a reality of managing a class of 30 kids within a highly regimented schedule. So I'm drawn to the idea of being able to wake when we feel like it (DW and I are also FIRE), complete lessons in ~1/2 the time, and have the flexibility to incorporate travel and nature as part of the curriculum.

The decision (for now) to public school is motivated by a desire to be more fully integrated within our community. As Christians we want our kids to be exposed to the "world," different ideas and attitudes, it's not something we fear and, in fact, believe it's good for them to experience the difference in worldviews. At some point they will be adults in the real world and we'd rather they get exposed to things as they grow up, when we can talk and discuss at home, rather than just getting thrown into the deep end in college. In other words, we think this will make them more resilient, and actually deepen their faith. Already, starting in first grade, one of my daughters has experienced a little bit of bullying. We consider this part of her religious training, learning how to love overs, even her enemies, as Jesus taught. Obviously, if goes too far we will intervene, but for now our daily prayer with her is that God's love and grace will overflow to everyone around her, including those who aren't nice to her. Rewarding to see her genuinely nice to the problem girl.

That said, the schools in our area are solid and pretty well funded. I don't blame parents (of any creed for faith) for homeschooling or going the private school route in districts where schools (administrators and/or communities) fail to provide an environment conducive to education. 


tralfamadorian

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2017, 08:09:24 PM »
Here's a local example from my state about what can happen when a group gets too disengaged from public schooling.  In East Ramapo, two thirds of the residents are ultra-Orthodox Jews, who do not use the public schools.  They ran for school board and won a majority.  After that they began steadily cutting funding for the public schools, which combined with a state funding equation unequipped for a situation where private school students outnumber public school students, led to the payment of $7.3 million to law firms by the school board over 6 years, and a funding crisis that led to a mass layoff of 90 teachers in 2012 and the closure of the beloved marching band for years.

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2014/11/17/east-ramapo-monitor-wants-state-intervention/19191367/
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2014/09/30/east-ramapo-band-director-returns/16500689/
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183757/east-ramapo-schools

I enjoyed the This American Life episode on this very much-
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority

PDXTabs

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2017, 08:15:20 PM »
My personal experience is that the home-school movement attracts people at the polar extremes of society. The people in the middle feel adequately served by the status quo, it's the people at the fringes that want to pull their kids out of school.

Specifically, I know people that have horribly failed to prepare their children academically through poor homeschooling. I also know someone that graduated at 19 years of age with a BS in Biochemistry that got so much money in scholarships that she made an extra $10K in school.

The same is true politically. I know people that are super conservative Christians, and others that are crazy liberal.

EDIT - which is to say that I'm okay with home schooling, but I do know children that have been poorly served by it.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 08:17:36 PM by PDXTabs »

PDXTabs

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2017, 08:23:19 PM »
So far this school year, I've if my kids has been on the wrestling team, the after school science club, the national hint society, and now the swim team.  These are great opportunities for a kid, and they seem hard to reproduce in sa homeschool environment.

I don't necessarily disagree. With that said, my son is home-schooled by his mom (we aren't together anymore), and he too is on the local swim team and is currently swimming 6 days per week.

ysette9

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2017, 08:37:43 PM »
I find the topic of homeschooling interesting and also emotionally charged since I was homeschooled for a few years, went to a private Christian school, then public school, junior college, public university, and finally private university. I have pretty much seen the entire spectrum of schooling (charter schools weren’t a thing when I was a kid).

My personal experience is that home schooling is good academically, but it is crippling socially. This was true for my sister and me and I have seen it in others who spent substantial time being schooled home. Humans are social animals and much of success in life is related to dealing effectively with other people in social, academic, and work settings. Depriving children of this important learning environment is a big hurdle that has to be overcome later in life when it is harder to learn. We socialized a ton with neighborhood kids and yet still missed some crucial lessons in social interactions by not being in normal school.

Personally the religious overtones creep my out. That wasn’t the reason we were home schooled but we got plenty of the similar attitude going to private Christian school. “We are better than everyone else. The world outside is evil and full of sinners. Only our way is The Right Way.” Many parents sent their kids to the church school to ensure they were not indoctrinated with any mainstream ideas. To me, if your beliefs can’t hold up to the scrutiny of regular life then that is too shaky a foundation to be legitimate.

That was all a long time ago though. Perhaps things have changed substantially since then. I hope so for the sake of kids being homeschooled.

JLE1990

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2017, 08:52:58 PM »
BAM
I'm not saying that all homeschooling is terrible. I plan to homeschool my own children(once I have any, scary thought lol) until 10-12 when they would go to hopefully an advanced prep school. What I'm talking about is not homeschooling but the danger of being completely in control of another human being without any oversight in any situation.

Unfortunately, a large amount of the homeschooled families I've encountered(where I grew up was quite the hotbed of them) keep their kids at home for the exact purpose of controlling them. People naturally self-correct to align when around other people and everyone doing this maintains society the way it is. It's good to teach them not to change their behavior to align with other people in instances such as buying a bunch of shit on credit. But a lot of the behavioral learning they will do in school is extremely is good and cannot be taught by interacting with a sibling. I connect with my siblings on a level I rarely if ever connect with anyone else on. They have to learn to interact with people on those more superficial levels as well. It's taken years and years of repeated failure to be able to interact normally and I'm one of the lucky ones. Others I know either became a statistic or completely lack self-awareness in social situations.

To go back to the controlling idea, it seems those families and texasrunner move to homeschooling from the belief that the public system and by extension society is morally bankrupt, teaching people what's "wrong is right." This implies the belief that they have moral authority over society and represents an extremely dangerous mentality in which they decide what is and is not righteous. Isolation is what happens when children are told that the "others" (society, public schools etc.) are bad and they need to stay away from them. Once isolation occurs the parents no longer do any of the self-policing that I mentioned earlier and this just opens the floodgates for any type of absurd(by society's standards) behavior. As the authority figure, the parents get to decide what is and isn't truth and there is no dissenting voice so the children absorb anything the parents' say. I've seen extreme bigotry and patriarchal bullshit(and subservience of women), too far worse. It's not a matter of whether a homeschooled child who is kept in a bubble of 'neighbors, relatives and the church,' will show abnormal behavior, but how much.

I don't mean people don't mean well when they start out but they fuck it up along the way. Personally, I think child-rearing should be done with extremely detailed planning like any investment discussed on here. You're literally creating a full-grown human being from nothing and spending 18yrs min. of your life doing so.

StockBeard

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2017, 12:48:23 AM »
I would counter the idea that it takes a village with the examples of the early American colonists and states.  Children being educated at home was the rule, the town schoolhouse was the exception.  Children were frequently, probably usually, not exposed to multitudes of adults on a regular basis.  Socialization, outside of their immediate family unit, was pretty minimal by today's expectations.  And, by and large, the people of that era were much better educated than our children are turning out
I don't think this statement is based on any evidence whatsoever, unless you use a very personal definition of "educated". To me there is no question that the average child today knows way more things than a kid from the 17th century.

ooeei

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2017, 06:34:50 AM »
What I've seen in homeschooled friends is the fringe tendency someone talked about above. If the parents are smart/motivated, the kids will likely do better academically than most kids in public schools. Then again kids in public schools with smart/motivated parents also do better than most kids in public schools.

The more common reality I've seen is the parents are highly motivated not on giving their kid extra teaching, but on restricting ideas. They want to prevent their kids from learning about evolution, vaccines, whatever it may be. Rather than making their own argument against those ideas while their kid is in public school, they simply block it out by keeping the kids home. Many of them have this worry that schools will "brainwash" their kids into believing in evolution or whatever it may be, when the reality is the kids will just hear a very persuasive argument for it presented with lots of evidence and examples. It's not them sitting kids in a room with their eyes taped open repeating a phrase concurrent with electrical shocks.

I've also never met a homeschooled person who wasn't pretty weird. That's not to say bad, but they always seem to be socially awkward, and have a tough time talking with new people or casual friends. The same thing often happens with people who went to schools in very small towns (think 5 students per grade). The longer a group stays isolated, the weirder they get. I've noticed this same thing happen with friend groups from long ago who've never branched out and made new friends. Their sense of humor gets really strange. I think an occasional move to a new place with new friends, even if casual ones, is a good "reset" for social skills. Homeschooled kids generally only talk with the same group of people and the same ideas for the first 18 years of their life. I find it very hard to believe that's the optimum way to raise someone to give them the most opportunity in life. It is a great way to raise someone to make sure they believe exactly the things you want them to without question.

As for the question in the thread title, I think seeing the negative effects on kids/adults is a good reason for having an anti-homeschool attitude. It's the same reasons you can have an anti-fundamentalist attitude even though not all fundamentalists are bad. It's simply a system that gets taken advantage of very regularly to prevent people from getting all of the available information out there.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 06:37:03 AM by ooeei »

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2017, 07:56:22 AM »
To go back to the controlling idea, it seems those families and texasrunner move to homeschooling from the belief that the public system and by extension society is morally bankrupt, teaching people what's "wrong is right." This implies the belief that they have moral authority over society and represents an extremely dangerous mentality in which they decide what is and is not righteous. Isolation is what happens when children are told that the "others" (society, public schools etc.) are bad and they need to stay away from them. Once isolation occurs the parents no longer do any of the self-policing that I mentioned earlier and this just opens the floodgates for any type of absurd(by society's standards) behavior. As the authority figure, the parents get to decide what is and isn't truth and there is no dissenting voice so the children absorb anything the parents' say. I've seen extreme bigotry and patriarchal bullshit(and subservience of women), too far worse. It's not a matter of whether a homeschooled child who is kept in a bubble of 'neighbors, relatives and the church,' will show abnormal behavior, but how much.

Please don't inject your assumptions upon myself or my life.  If you want to take any arguments I have posted and present evidence for what you say you see from those, thats fine, or if you want to build an argument from any sort of data (rather than anecdotal) thats fine, but this is a HUGE strawman argument.

I don't mean people don't mean well when they start out but they fuck it up along the way. Personally, I think child-rearing should be done with extremely detailed planning like any investment discussed on here. You're literally creating a full-grown human being from nothing and spending 18yrs min. of your life doing so.

I don't think ANYONE on here who is homeschooling would disagree with you.  However, you making this statement implies that we are not "[planning] with extremely detailed planning like any investment discussed on here".  I do not believe that is the case.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2017, 08:06:42 AM »
As for the question in the thread title, I think seeing the negative effects on kids/adults is a good reason for having an anti-homeschool attitude. It's the same reasons you can have an anti-fundamentalist attitude even though not all fundamentalists are bad. It's simply a system that gets taken advantage of very regularly to prevent people from getting all of the available information out there.

Just out of curiosity, how many non-socially awkward previously homeschooled people do you know?  If you can't think of any, its probably because you didn't even notice that they were homeschooled or never asked.  Humans always recognize the outliers, but we filter out the middle.

For some anecdotal data (useless I know), My kids (based on age and activities) have an exponential interaction with other kids, very similar to what you would find in public school.

At the following ages, my kids interact from about the following number of same-age kids (FYI, for several hours, typically at least twice a week, in anywhere from 2 to 15 different social settings):
- Age 3, about 10 per week
- Age 4, about the same, 10 per week
- Age 5, about 25 per week
- Age 7, about 25 per week
- Age 9, about 30 per week up to 50 if we are doing anything at the local theater
- Age 10, same
- Age 13, haven't gotten there yet, but our plans indicate that they will be around 100 different same-age people throughout the week
14 and above, about the same as 13 but we haven't made specific plans yet.

I would say that isn't a drastic difference from public school.  We don't 'hover' to 'control their conversations'.  We don't steer them away from certain other individuals.  We don't mitigate the conversations.  We allow them to have their own interactions, discussions and actions.  Now, if you want to call that 'controlling' or 'confined', be my guest but its still a strawman.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »
As for the question in the thread title, I think seeing the negative effects on kids/adults is a good reason for having an anti-homeschool attitude. It's the same reasons you can have an anti-fundamentalist attitude even though not all fundamentalists are bad. It's simply a system that gets taken advantage of very regularly to prevent people from getting all of the available information out there.

Just out of curiosity, how many non-socially awkward previously homeschooled people do you know?  If you can't think of any, its probably because you didn't even notice that they were homeschooled or never asked.  Humans always recognize the outliers, but we filter out the middle.

For some anecdotal data (useless I know), My kids (based on age and activities) have an exponential interaction with other kids, very similar to what you would find in public school.

At the following ages, my kids interact from about the following number of same-age kids (FYI, for several hours, typically at least twice a week, in anywhere from 2 to 15 different social settings):
- Age 3, about 10 per week
- Age 4, about the same, 10 per week
- Age 5, about 25 per week
- Age 7, about 25 per week
- Age 9, about 30 per week up to 50 if we are doing anything at the local theater
- Age 10, same
- Age 13, haven't gotten there yet, but our plans indicate that they will be around 100 different same-age people throughout the week
14 and above, about the same as 13 but we haven't made specific plans yet.

I would say that isn't a drastic difference from public school.  We don't 'hover' to 'control their conversations'.  We don't steer them away from certain other individuals.  We don't mitigate the conversations.  We allow them to have their own interactions, discussions and actions.  Now, if you want to call that 'controlling' or 'confined', be my guest but its still a strawman.

What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

ysette9

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2017, 08:38:15 AM »
I’m still perplexing over the difference in the quality of social interactions from when I was a homeschooled kid versus when I went to real school. As i mentioned before, i played with the neighborhood kids a ton, usually the one organizing and deciding what we were going to play. All of that was different enough from the structured social hierarchy of school to place me unwittingly and firmly on the very bottom of the social ladder due to my own social ineptness. The same was true for my sister.

I remember leaving the US as an exchange student and meeting up with a group of other 17-18 year olds at the airport getting ready to fly out together. There was one girl who immediately struck me as odd and it didn’t take long for it to come out that she had been homeschooled all the way through. These are all anecdotes but in my personal experience I associate home schooling with extreme social awkwardness. I’d like to see counter examples but I haven’t met anyone yet.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2017, 08:47:41 AM »
What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

My concerns here are that sometimes, and I would hope not in the case of anyone present, the answer to this question is going to be "God hates fags" and "Ragheads killed Jesus".

ooeei

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2017, 08:48:56 AM »
As for the question in the thread title, I think seeing the negative effects on kids/adults is a good reason for having an anti-homeschool attitude. It's the same reasons you can have an anti-fundamentalist attitude even though not all fundamentalists are bad. It's simply a system that gets taken advantage of very regularly to prevent people from getting all of the available information out there.

Just out of curiosity, how many non-socially awkward previously homeschooled people do you know?  If you can't think of any, its probably because you didn't even notice that they were homeschooled or never asked.  Humans always recognize the outliers, but we filter out the middle.

I know one guy who's reasonably social, and his parents did include him in lots of social groups and activities. I met him in soccer when we were kids. I know around 15 others who are all a bit weird, 3 of which are his siblings. I guess I misspoke when I said never.

You're entirely right that I could've met normal people who were homeschooled that I didn't know about, then again I could've met more weird people who were homeschooled that I didn't know about. It's not like I ask weird people if they were homeschooled. Of the people I know who were homeschooled, most are pretty weird.

Quote
For some anecdotal data (useless I know), My kids (based on age and activities) have an exponential interaction with other kids, very similar to what you would find in public school.

At the following ages, my kids interact from about the following number of same-age kids (FYI, for several hours, typically at least twice a week, in anywhere from 2 to 15 different social settings):
- Age 3, about 10 per week
- Age 4, about the same, 10 per week
- Age 5, about 25 per week
- Age 7, about 25 per week
- Age 9, about 30 per week up to 50 if we are doing anything at the local theater
- Age 10, same
- Age 13, haven't gotten there yet, but our plans indicate that they will be around 100 different same-age people throughout the week
14 and above, about the same as 13 but we haven't made specific plans yet.

I would say that isn't a drastic difference from public school.  We don't 'hover' to 'control their conversations'.  We don't steer them away from certain other individuals.  We don't mitigate the conversations.  We allow them to have their own interactions, discussions and actions.  Now, if you want to call that 'controlling' or 'confined', be my guest but its still a strawman.

I'm not saying it can't work, I'm saying generally what I've seen is kids turn out weird. I'm simply providing reasons why people may have anti-homeschooling attitudes. If you think the average homeschooled parent is better than the average school at educating/socializing their kids, then it makes sense to be pro homeschool. I don't think they are based on what I've seen, so I'm not generally pro homeschool. I also don't think it should be illegal, and admit sometimes it works out well.

Having kids hang out with other kids for a few hours twice a week is way different from them being together 8 hours a day every day completely separate from their parents and siblings. I don't think we can discount the challenges kids have to navigate in a regular school, whether they are social skills, learning to deal with a person in authority who's stupid/mean, being forced to be around people you don't like, being forced into awkward/uncomfortable situations, or meeting people from different cultures/demographics. Can those things be done for someone homeschooled? Some of them can, others not so much. Maybe the lack of it can be made up for by other things homeschool has as an advantage, but I just don't think the average parent has the skillset to do it based on what I've seen.

Parents tend to want the best for their kids, but the real world doesn't really give a shit about them. School is a preview of that experience.

I sincerely hope your kids turn out great, and you caring this much and being this aware means they probably will. There are certainly plenty of homeschooled success stories out there.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2017, 08:55:00 AM »
What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

Good question and I appreciate you asking.

Sexual Orientation:
Mostly, that isn't really open/discussed up to age 9 or 10.  Sexuality (from my parenting perspective) is developing internally but not externally discussed, just cued through flirtation or whatever...  We are just now getting there with our oldest, so the examples I am presenting on this topic (just because are kids are so young) are coming from my own experiences in the exact same environments that our kids will be in.  I had three openly homosexual friends who 'came out' at ages 12, 13 and 16.  Two of which were through a local civic theater and one through a school group.  We were friends before and remained friends after.  While I disagreed with their behavior, I didn't think less of them, but it did open me up to very important viewpoints about freedom and liberty of decision.  I completely expect my kids' experiences to be similar or at least a similar level of interaction (although that is an assumption, I cannot assume or define the decisions or actions of my kids based on my own experiences).  But overall, thats a 'check' if thats what you are looking for.

Religions:
Again, this starts about age 12.  As a kid I went through "confirmation" at our church (Methodist) and during that process we attended Synagogue, the local Mosque, a Latter-Day Saints Temple and had discussions with a leader of each of those places in a private setting afterward (for which I am very thankful).  From my recollection, our own leaders didn't manipulate or distort any of the experiences or conversations, etc, and considered it a learning opportunity.  For my kids, we plan on doing the same thing, through homeschooling, about grade 6 or so (about age 12).  Namely when we start going through social studies.  Our plan is to start off with a deeper view on our own beliefs and historically where they come from, then branch out to several other belief systems.  I do not believe 'sheltering' is appropriate, and I agree with someone upthread who mentioned that if your belief system cannot withstand exposure to the 'outside world', then it is not worth having.  I do, however, think this is an age-appropriate task that should be defined by the parent, though it does need to happen.

Cultures:
This one is more difficult.  According to US Census records from 2010, the population of East Texas counties is 65.93% White Non-Hispanic, 17.44% African-American, 14.29% Hispanic or Latino Origin and 2.34% Other (including native and Asian).  Numerically, that restricts much of the cross-cultural interaction that can develop.  That makes this pretty difficult...  However, one way we plan to expand our kids cultural breadth and knowledge is through international travel.  We plan on taking our oldest to Nicaragua possibly this year or next, and plan on taking all of our kids wherever we go internationally (or domestically) above age 10 or so.  Thats one of the great things about homeschooling, you can do in-depth cultural studies wherever you are.  It really does open up more possibilities.

As far as obtaining a consistent exposure, its pretty difficult with the percentages as stated above, but we do hope to have our daughter join a mixed soccer team (as in mostly Hispanic) in lieu of the self-segregating all white teams.  The draft team is usually good for this in our soccer district since it captures everybody without a 'home team'.  Outside of that and the international experiences, its pretty difficult and we are open to ideas.



Edit to clarify for my specific county: The racial makeup of the county was 88.50% White, 6.61% Black or African American, 0.54% Native American, 0.30% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 2.72% from other races, and 1.30% from two or more races. 6.92% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. So ya, pretty difficult to find opportunities...  :/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 09:04:19 AM by TexasRunner »

BAM

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2017, 09:10:55 AM »
Stockbeard,
Here are two 8th grade graduation exams from the late 1800s/early 1900s: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/12/1912-eighth-grade-exam_n_3744163.html and http://www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/8thgradeexam.htm. My guess is you won't find them so easy to answer and neither will the children of this time period.
Or we could mention Shakespeare. He wrote his play in the 1500-1600s for the COMMON man - not highly educated people. Yet most today find him difficult to understand.
So I would have to disagree with you on your assessment that today's children know more than those from the 17th century. 

« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 09:14:00 AM by BAM »

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2017, 09:20:39 AM »
What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

Good question and I appreciate you asking.

Sexual Orientation:
Mostly, that isn't really open/discussed up to age 9 or 10.  Sexuality (from my parenting perspective) is developing internally but not externally discussed, just cued through flirtation or whatever...  We are just now getting there with our oldest, so the examples I am presenting on this topic (just because are kids are so young) are coming from my own experiences in the exact same environments that our kids will be in.  I had three openly homosexual friends who 'came out' at ages 12, 13 and 16.  Two of which were through a local civic theater and one through a school group.  We were friends before and remained friends after.  While I disagreed with their behavior, I didn't think less of them, but it did open me up to very important viewpoints about freedom and liberty of decision.  I completely expect my kids' experiences to be similar or at least a similar level of interaction (although that is an assumption, I cannot assume or define the decisions or actions of my kids based on my own experiences).  But overall, thats a 'check' if thats what you are looking for.

Religions:
Again, this starts about age 12.  As a kid I went through "confirmation" at our church (Methodist) and during that process we attended Synagogue, the local Mosque, a Latter-Day Saints Temple and had discussions with a leader of each of those places in a private setting afterward (for which I am very thankful).  From my recollection, our own leaders didn't manipulate or distort any of the experiences or conversations, etc, and considered it a learning opportunity.  For my kids, we plan on doing the same thing, through homeschooling, about grade 6 or so (about age 12).  Namely when we start going through social studies.  Our plan is to start off with a deeper view on our own beliefs and historically where they come from, then branch out to several other belief systems.  I do not believe 'sheltering' is appropriate, and I agree with someone upthread who mentioned that if your belief system cannot withstand exposure to the 'outside world', then it is not worth having.  I do, however, think this is an age-appropriate task that should be defined by the parent, though it does need to happen.

Cultures:
This one is more difficult.  According to US Census records from 2010, the population of East Texas counties is 65.93% White Non-Hispanic, 17.44% African-American, 14.29% Hispanic or Latino Origin and 2.34% Other (including native and Asian).  Numerically, that restricts much of the cross-cultural interaction that can develop.  That makes this pretty difficult...  However, one way we plan to expand our kids cultural breadth and knowledge is through international travel.  We plan on taking our oldest to Nicaragua possibly this year or next, and plan on taking all of our kids wherever we go internationally (or domestically) above age 10 or so.  Thats one of the great things about homeschooling, you can do in-depth cultural studies wherever you are.  It really does open up more possibilities.

As far as obtaining a consistent exposure, its pretty difficult with the percentages as stated above, but we do hope to have our daughter join a mixed soccer team (as in mostly Hispanic) in lieu of the self-segregating all white teams.  The draft team is usually good for this in our soccer district since it captures everybody without a 'home team'.  Outside of that and the international experiences, its pretty difficult and we are open to ideas.



Edit to clarify for my specific county: The racial makeup of the county was 88.50% White, 6.61% Black or African American, 0.54% Native American, 0.30% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 2.72% from other races, and 1.30% from two or more races. 6.92% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. So ya, pretty difficult to find opportunities...  :/

Those sound like mostly reasonable answers.  I think that the concerns you were responding to in your previous post were that there may be a level of cloistering happening when children are being homeschooled  . . . hence the comments about 'controlling' and 'confined'.

There were a couple things that stood out to me from your responses.
- How do you strongly disagree with the day to day behaviour of someone without thinking less of them as a person, and while continuing to remain friends?
- I really like the idea of exposing children to different schools of religious thought.  It would be great if you could expand outside of the Abrahemic religions (which all have the same basic roots/stories) to Buddhist and Hindu practices, as well as atheist arguments.