Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 25775 times)

PhilB

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #450 on: January 13, 2018, 06:42:51 AM »
I think we can all agree that huge amounts of evil is done in the name of religion.  I'm sure we would also all agree that many people practice religion in ways that are generally harmless or even may lead to some societal good through charitable works etc.  We all condemn the former.  The question is what should our attitude be to the latter group?  Richard Dawkins contention is that a) by allowing any leeway for 'moderate' religion we create the conditions for extremist religious views to thrive and do great harm; and b) the harm done by the evil end of the spectrum greatly outweighs any good done by the moderate believers.
I would love to believe that Richard Dawkins is wrong and that we could all go out of our way to be tolerant towards the moderates whilst at the same time ending the evils of the extremists.  Sadly though, I fear that he may well be right.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #451 on: January 13, 2018, 06:49:18 AM »
I think we can all agree that huge amounts of evil is done in the name of religion.  I'm sure we would also all agree that many people practice religion in ways that are generally harmless or even may lead to some societal good through charitable works etc.  We all condemn the former.  The question is what should our attitude be to the latter group?  Richard Dawkins contention is that a) by allowing any leeway for 'moderate' religion we create the conditions for extremist religious views to thrive and do great harm; and b) the harm done by the evil end of the spectrum greatly outweighs any good done by the moderate believers.
I would love to believe that Richard Dawkins is wrong and that we could all go out of our way to be tolerant towards the moderates whilst at the same time ending the evils of the extremists.  Sadly though, I fear that he may well be right.
He is my issue, people get to have opinions, even ones we don't like.  But there is a major difference between a hate group that goes out of their way to traumatize people and a person who uses Twitter and speaks to the news media.  The equivalence bothers me.  A better equivalence would be Dawkins and any of the multiple evangelical groups.  But even that falls apart because I don't see (though he is in the UK so I may have missed) him try to force people not to follow their religion, just not be able to push it on others. 

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #452 on: January 13, 2018, 07:19:28 AM »
I think we can all agree that huge amounts of evil is done in the name of religion.  I'm sure we would also all agree that many people practice religion in ways that are generally harmless or even may lead to some societal good through charitable works etc.  We all condemn the former.  The question is what should our attitude be to the latter group?  Richard Dawkins contention is that a) by allowing any leeway for 'moderate' religion we create the conditions for extremist religious views to thrive and do great harm; and b) the harm done by the evil end of the spectrum greatly outweighs any good done by the moderate believers.
I would love to believe that Richard Dawkins is wrong and that we could all go out of our way to be tolerant towards the moderates whilst at the same time ending the evils of the extremists.  Sadly though, I fear that he may well be right.

I don't know if you are American or not from what I can see here on the forum, so I hope this doesn't come across as condescending.

Speech is handled a little differently under the law in the United States compared to most other countries. There is no penalty for "hate speech" in the United States except for societal ostracization (including possibly certain kinds of economic retaliation) unless the person speaking is instigating violence. Instead, we simply allow all speech and opinions with the thought that we will ignore or argue against the speech we don't like.

This hasn't been the way Americans have handled things recently. Probably because the internet has opened up a lot more interaction with people from other countries who have different ideas about speech.

Under the law, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to picket funerals with signs that say "God Hates Fags". They aren't allowed to advocate murdering gays or destroying their property. Under the same rules, Richard Dawkins would be allowed to say that Islam is a force for evil in public forums and publications to an audience of millions as long as he isn't advocating murdering Muslims or burning down their businesses and mosques.

So I think the comparison is appropriate. They both utilize hate speech and antagonize people. They are both bigoted. They have the same rights to do as they will under the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution.

The difference I'm seeing is that a certain segment of atheists like to tell themselves that they are more intellectually and morally advanced than religious people, so it's probably difficult for those atheists to admit that hate and bigotry can be utilized by atheists just as easily as religious people.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #453 on: January 13, 2018, 07:23:29 AM »
I think we can all agree that huge amounts of evil is done in the name of religion.  I'm sure we would also all agree that many people practice religion in ways that are generally harmless or even may lead to some societal good through charitable works etc.  We all condemn the former.  The question is what should our attitude be to the latter group?  Richard Dawkins contention is that a) by allowing any leeway for 'moderate' religion we create the conditions for extremist religious views to thrive and do great harm; and b) the harm done by the evil end of the spectrum greatly outweighs any good done by the moderate believers.
I would love to believe that Richard Dawkins is wrong and that we could all go out of our way to be tolerant towards the moderates whilst at the same time ending the evils of the extremists.  Sadly though, I fear that he may well be right.

I don't know if you are American or not from what I can see here on the forum, so I hope this doesn't come across as condescending.

Speech is handled a little differently under the law in the United States compared to most other countries. There is no penalty for "hate speech" in the United States except for societal ostracization (including possibly certain kinds of economic retaliation) unless the person speaking is instigating violence. Instead, we simply allow all speech and opinions with the thought that we will ignore or argue against the speech we don't like.

This hasn't been the way Americans have handled things recently. Probably because the internet has opened up a lot more interaction with people from other countries who have different ideas about speech.

Under the law, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to picket funerals with signs that say "God Hates Fags". They aren't allowed to advocate murdering gays or destroying their property. Under the same rules, Richard Dawkins would be allowed to say that Islam is a force for evil in public forums and publications to an audience of millions as long as he isn't advocating murdering Muslims or burning down their businesses and mosques.

So I think the comparison is appropriate. They both utilize hate speech and antagonize people. They are both bigoted. They have the same rights to do as they will under the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution.

The difference I'm seeing is that a certain segment of atheists like to tell themselves that they are more intellectually and morally advanced than religious people, so it's probably difficult for those atheists to admit that hate and bigotry can be utilized by atheists just as easily as religious people.
I'm not atheist and I find the comparison lacking in many respects. 

blinx7

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #454 on: January 13, 2018, 07:33:59 AM »

I didn't read this whole thread, but generally speaking it is "OK" for different people to reasonably disagree about things.  There is no moral or legal requirement that everyone agree with your point of view.

I am a Catholic Christian and send my kids to a private, parochial Catholic school (e.g., an affordable school generally attended by members of a particular parish but also generally open to the wider community, as opposed to an expensive private with cutthroat admissions).  I don't particularly care what other people think about that and I don't care whether they prefer public or homeschool or fancy secular prep school or whatever. 


jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #455 on: January 13, 2018, 10:36:53 AM »
Reading a book that made me think of this thread, and how well unschooling aligns with Mustachianism:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachian-book-club/art-of-self-directed-learning-(blake-boles)/

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #456 on: January 13, 2018, 11:03:42 AM »
So I think the comparison is appropriate. They both utilize hate speech and antagonize people. They are both bigoted.

I feel like you're deliberately avoiding my point.  Opposing hate speech is not bigotry.  Opposing violence is not antagonism. 

Equating the two sides of this debate is just like Trump saying there were very fine people on both sides of the Nazi protest march.  No, one side is promoting violence and the other side is opposing violence.  One side is promoting hatred and the other side is opposing hatred.  Do not make the same mistake that Trump makes.

Dawkins is more outspoken than most, because he believes that religion causes lots of harm in the world and that the good it contributes doesn't require religion.  He thinks we'd be better off if we all just abandoned strict adherence to ancient superstitious texts, and chose to lead good lives because we are good people instead of using magical thinking to rationalize hatred and violence.  This does not make him an islamophobe, and it doesn't even make him an atheist.  It just makes him someone who thinks religion is a problem in human society and should be abandoned (apart from any belief about the validity of any specific religion).

He's literally trying to stop people from using religion to conduct public beheadings, and you're calling him a bigot for that?  How fucked up is your value system?


WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #457 on: January 13, 2018, 11:21:23 AM »
So I think the comparison is appropriate. They both utilize hate speech and antagonize people. They are both bigoted.

I feel like you're deliberately avoiding my point.  Opposing hate speech is not bigotry.  Opposing violence is not antagonism. 

Equating the two sides of this debate is just like Trump saying there were very fine people on both sides of the Nazi protest march.  No, one side is promoting violence and the other side is opposing violence.  One side is promoting hatred and the other side is opposing hatred.  Do not make the same mistake that Trump makes.

Dawkins is more outspoken than most, because he believes that religion causes lots of harm in the world and that the good it contributes doesn't require religion.  He thinks we'd be better off if we all just abandoned strict adherence to ancient superstitious texts, and chose to lead good lives because we are good people instead of using magical thinking to rationalize hatred and violence.  This does not make him an islamophobe, and it doesn't even make him an atheist.  It just makes him someone who thinks religion is a problem in human society and should be abandoned (apart from any belief about the validity of any specific religion).

He's literally trying to stop people from using religion to conduct public beheadings, and you're calling him a bigot for that?  How fucked up is your value system?

Yeah, you don't make any sense at all. Sorry. Blaming an entire religion for the actions of a few people is exactly the same as what terrorists do, which is to blame every man, woman, and child in the United States for the actions that some Americans have taken that have harmed people in the Middle East. When people do that, they are bigots. Period. Full stop. There is absolutely no valid argument against that fact.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #458 on: January 13, 2018, 11:28:30 AM »
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of a few people is exactly the same as what terrorists do

I'm not blaming an entire religion, I'm blaming every religion.  I'm blaming the cognitive malfunction that allows a person to honestly believe that an invisible man who lives in the sky tells them how to live their lives.  It's not about singling out one religion for discrimination, it's about identifying the conditions that let people commit heinous crimes in the name of righteousness.

Religion itself is not evil.  It can be practiced peacefully.  It can also be practiced nonpeacefully, and the problem is that the very nature of magical thinking is that it doesn't allow any room for rational discussion about which is best.  It requires blind faith even when presented with facts.  It forcefully denies the very thing that separates humans from animals, our ability to reason.

So no, Dawkins is not being bigoted against religious people.  He's promoting abandoning magical thinking as a shortcut to facilitating peaceful coexistence.  You can still believe whatever you like, as long as your beliefs aren't harmful to society.  He thinks religion is harmful.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #459 on: January 13, 2018, 11:35:19 AM »
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of a few people is exactly the same as what terrorists do

I'm not blaming an entire religion, I'm blaming every religion.  I'm blaming the cognitive malfunction that allows a person to honestly believe that an invisible man who lives in the sky tells them how to live their lives.  It's not about singling out one religion for discrimination, it's about identifying the conditions that let people commit heinous crimes in the name of righteousness.

Religion itself is not evil.  It can be practiced peacefully.  It can also be practiced nonpeacefully, and the problem is that the very nature of magical thinking is that it doesn't allow any room for rational discussion about which is best.  It requires blind faith even when presented with facts.  It forcefully denies the very thing that separates humans from animals, our ability to reason.

So no, Dawkins is not being bigoted against religious people.  He's promoting abandoning magical thinking as a shortcut to facilitating peaceful coexistence.  You can still believe whatever you like, as long as your beliefs aren't harmful to society.  He thinks religion is harmful.

I'm going to let your response just sit there for people to see.

I just want to remind all the other religious people out there that quite a few atheists are good and decent people who do not hate people for their religion. This one single person does not represent all atheists.

Bigotry is an evil and destructive force, but you don't need to let people like this guy create a false impression that a large segment of society thinks bigotry is okay. The overwhelming percentage of people are good and kind and respectful and this one person does not represent all atheists.

blinx7

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #460 on: January 13, 2018, 11:40:54 AM »
  Dawkins is more outspoken than most, because he believes that religion causes lots of harm in the world and that the good it contributes doesn't require religion.  He thinks we'd be better off if we all just ... chose to lead good lives because we are good people instead of using magical thinking to rationalize hatred and violence. 

Defining what "good" is, and whether it is objective or subjective, and whether if it is subjective it can even be said to exist in any meaningful sense, and whether it is objective how we can determine what and who is in fact "good", what a "good" person should do, and what authority and standards we should use to judge the "goodness" of a particular person, act or civilization, is a quite fascinating subject.  Probably the most fascinating one I've had the pleasure of studying. 

Those ancient "superstitious" texts speak to those questions in quite sophisticated ways, which Dawkins might recognize if he bothered to educate himself. 

I have way too busy of a life to engage in debates with Dawkins acolytes who openly write me off as an idiot for thinking differently than them other than to say that reading and respectful dialogue are both fun and I wish we as a society did more of both.  If people want to argue about fairies or spaghetti monsters instead of say, Zen and the Birds of Appetite by Thomas Merton, then that's a tragic loss of their precious time on earth and not something I have an interest in participating in. 

Hopefully you will all come to your senses in purgatory.  :)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:49:42 AM by blinx7 »

brooklynguy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #461 on: January 13, 2018, 11:42:43 AM »
who do not hate people for their religion

There’s not a word in sol’s post about hating people, for religion or anything else.  In his post I see an attack against ideas (specifically, magical thinking and dogma), not people, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

(Edited to fix an autocorrect typo.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:01:17 PM by brooklynguy »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #462 on: January 13, 2018, 11:44:26 AM »
who do not hate people for their religion

There’s not a word in sol’s post about hating people, for religion or anything else.  In his post I see an attack against ideas (specially, magical thinking and dogma), not people, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Attacking religion is exactly the same as attacking a person's skin color, sex, sexual orientation, etc. That should be obvious to any reasonable person.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #463 on: January 13, 2018, 11:50:20 AM »
who do not hate people for their religion

There’s not a word in sol’s post about hating people, for religion or anything else.  In his post I see an attack against ideas (specially, magical thinking and dogma), not people, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Attacking religion is exactly the same as attacking a person's skin color, sex, sexual orientation, etc. That should be obvious to any reasonable person.
Given I do get attacked for my religion, by Christians no less, I can't tell you without a doubt that one, no one is attacking your religion and two, that they are no where near the same.  Them believing it causes harm is different than harming you because of your religion. 

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #464 on: January 13, 2018, 02:10:17 PM »
The overwhelming percentage of people are good and kind and respectful and this one person does not represent all atheists.

Wait, are we talking about sol now, or are we still talking about Richard Dawkins?

ysette9

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Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #465 on: January 13, 2018, 02:37:59 PM »
I would argue that it is not the same as attacking someone for their skin color or sexual orientation. Religion is a choice. My sexual orientation is not. I can and have made the decision to change my religious status. I couldn’t change my skin color if I wanted to.
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Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #466 on: January 13, 2018, 08:28:49 PM »
I would argue that it is not the same as attacking someone for their skin color or sexual orientation. Religion is a choice. My sexual orientation is not. I can and have made the decision to change my religious status. I couldn’t change my skin color if I wanted to.

Agreed, religion is not an immutable characteristic. Unfortunately, the SCOTUS disagrees, ruling that, "although it is possible to change one's religion, it is not something a person should *have* to change," and is therefore considered immutable. Gender is also generally considered to be immutable, which seems somewhat inconvenient for transgender people who, by definition, transition from one gender to another...

PhilB

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #467 on: January 14, 2018, 01:00:27 AM »
  Dawkins is more outspoken than most, because he believes that religion causes lots of harm in the world and that the good it contributes doesn't require religion.  He thinks we'd be better off if we all just ... chose to lead good lives because we are good people instead of using magical thinking to rationalize hatred and violence. 

Defining what "good" is, and whether it is objective or subjective, and whether if it is subjective it can even be said to exist in any meaningful sense, and whether it is objective how we can determine what and who is in fact "good", what a "good" person should do, and what authority and standards we should use to judge the "goodness" of a particular person, act or civilization, is a quite fascinating subject.  Probably the most fascinating one I've had the pleasure of studying. 

Those ancient "superstitious" texts speak to those questions in quite sophisticated ways, which Dawkins might recognize if he bothered to educate himself. 

I have way too busy of a life to engage in debates with Dawkins acolytes who openly write me off as an idiot for thinking differently than them other than to say that reading and respectful dialogue are both fun and I wish we as a society did more of both.  If people want to argue about fairies or spaghetti monsters instead of say, Zen and the Birds of Appetite by Thomas Merton, then that's a tragic loss of their precious time on earth and not something I have an interest in participating in. 

Hopefully you will all come to your senses in purgatory.  :)
No particular religious or non-religious world view has a monopoly on idiocy.  The great tragedy of the whole religious question is that the more moderate, intelligent and thoughtful people tend not to be the ones shouting.
The whole question of what constitutes 'good' behaviour is indeed an incredibly important one and many religious thinkers have sought to address it over the centuries - just as many people have tried to address other questions such as those of science.   There are different ways in which you can treat those earlier attempts to answer such questions to questions like 'why is the sky blue' or 'why don't eels have gonads?'
A. People were trying to understand difficult questions and their answers need to be evaluated and interpreted in their own historical and cultural contexts.  If we make allowances for that we may find much that is useful and thought-provoking in looking at their works.
B. How could those people have been so dumb to believe x was true.
C. Aristotle said the answer was x and so that must be right because Aristotle is never, ever wrong.
Both the religious and the atheistic / science-based camps have, thankfully, plenty of type A people.  Unfortunately their more reasoned debates tend to get drowned out in the shouting match between type B atheists and type C religious types.  If you do find yourself being treated as an idiot by an atheist because of your religious views, you may need to just check whether you really are a type A being undeservedly attacked by a type B, or if you're actually a type C who ignores all evidence that conflicts with your beliefs and thereby has the magical power to convert your antagonists from type As to type Bs.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #468 on: January 14, 2018, 07:20:06 AM »
I think it's very important to point out that discussion of morality, epistemology, meaning/purpose in life, etc. can be held completely distinct and free from religious trappings, and in many ways benefits from this seperation.  Philosophy is distinct from religion (although there have been many religious philosophers of note worth reading).

This is a something that an awful lot of religious folks get confused about.

almcclur

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #469 on: January 14, 2018, 09:15:09 AM »
Yeah, but there are plenty of parents around the US, at least, who homeschool to control what their kids are exposed to. Mostly for religious reasons. In particular, it's used as a way to keep girls from getting exposed to "ideas"...

Understood. We have that here too, but it's a minority. Most of our region's homeschooling families are the opposite, and it's important this is recognized in discussions. We can't continue equating homeschooling with isolating, as they're simply not one and the same.

Jooni, I'm not pointing a finger at you specifically -- I've read enough of your wonderful writing around here to get a sense of your situation.

Got it :)

...when it's abundantly clear that their needs can't/won't be met, I support looking for other avenues. I just wish those parents would understand that as long as they're engaging with the school system they're actually advocating for other kids as well as their own. (A point which I'm confident you understand, so, again -- I'm not responding to your personal decision, more to the general issues you raise.)

I believe that most parents advocating are aware their effort positively impacts other children in need, too. There's just only so much volunteer service any of us can do in our communities. Parenting an "outlier" can be incredibly taxing, and that's before we even get to the stupid school system's day. (We're also advocating in our communities for accessible child care, inclusive recreation, inclusive transportation, effective medical support, caregiver respite, disability support in their adulthoods, disability-supportive housing... All while working to feed our kids, implementing their therapies, etc. It's a lot, and it'd be nice if we didn't have to lobby for schools to be safe and relevant for them, too.)

i.e., We can see the importance -for all- of lobbying, while simultaneously recognizing that we can't do it all. I think many homeschooling parents understand a lot more than this thread gives them credit for.

Alas, my experience with parents in general is that they understand what they want to understand. My sense is that you're pretty exceptional, both in the lengths you go to to create an appropriate environment for yourself and your son, and for your engagement in your community (-ies).

Also, my sense is that your son's needs are higher then average -- that leaves lots of us with merely normally exhausting "inliers" to push back on district-originated stupidity/lack of flexibility/whatever it is this year. Furthermore, if there are LOTS of parents sharing that load, it's less exhausting for everyone (and the district is more likely to involve parents in decision-making, because there are a butt-ton of them present all the time).

At least in my private school example, the thinking process seems to go "I have a really bright kid who can't have the best possible experience in the stinky public school system. Think I'll send him/her to private school."  Rather than "our schools need to provide more services to all the kids like mine. How can I help make that happen?" at least until it's crystal clear that my kid is not going to have his/her needs met.

I have homeschooled for years all over the country, and have many relationships with all kinds of homeschooling families. This is not the view of most that I've met. A very high number--at least 1/4 of our peers--have special challenges that were not well addressed in a school setting. Sure we could have spent more years battling in the IEP process, but in the meanwhile our kids were being left behind and suffering.

Aside from those with special needs, the idea that every parent should just work within the system to effect change is not realistic in many places. I have a daughter in public school and many of these schools have been resistant to or uninterested in parental involvement and input. This year again I offered to help and tried to be involved in the PTA, but they tell me it's not needed at the middle school level. Period.

So we work in other ways to help improve the communities we're a part of, and are thankful that Texas doesn't try to tell us how best to raise and educate our children.





jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #470 on: January 14, 2018, 09:53:49 AM »
Thank you very much, almcclur. Your note speaks perfectly to my experience (personally and of the families I've connected with in four regions).

RetiredAt63

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #471 on: January 14, 2018, 10:25:10 AM »
Thank you very much, almcclur. Your note speaks perfectly to my experience (personally and of the families I've connected with in four regions).

And thank you both for staying on topic.
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sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #472 on: January 14, 2018, 10:49:53 AM »
Hopefully you will all come to your senses in purgatory.  :)

That might be one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me in this context.  I'm accustomed to damnation, in this situation.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #473 on: January 14, 2018, 11:54:32 AM »
Hopefully you will all come to your senses in purgatory.  :)

That might be one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me in this context.  I'm accustomed to damnation, in this situation.

It's a pretty commonly held belief among more moderate practicing Christians that the path to God is to do good, so if you lead a good life you'll end up partying on down in eternal joy with Him after your death - regardless of whether or not you believed in God while alive.

I always kinda liked this argument because it squares away nicely with a loving God.  Arguing any other fate always sorta makes God seem like a dick - "You led a great life but weren't baptized?  Fuck you, the best you get is eternal limbo.  Say hi to all the dead babies down there."

Pope Francis is a proponent of the former argument, one of many reasons that I really like many of the decisions he has been making as head of the Catholic church.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 11:57:08 AM by GuitarStv »

simonkkkkk

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #474 on: January 14, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »




Ah okay didint know!

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #475 on: January 14, 2018, 12:42:44 PM »
It's a pretty commonly held belief among more moderate practicing Christians that the path to God is to do good, so if you lead a good life you'll end up partying on down in eternal joy with Him after your death - regardless of whether or not you believed in God while alive.

Yeah, some go even farther than that.  We call it the ”easy grace" doctrine because everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus died for your sins whether you like it or not.  Eternal salvation is a gift that cannot be refused.

But I wouldn't exactly call it ”common" among practicing Christians, just the new agey progressive ones that have a hard on for love for forgiveness.  That doesn't describe most of them.  Exclusionary and derogatory judgement of the nondeserving is one of the primary perks of joining a church, after all. Why bother, if you don't get to feel special?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:44:49 PM by sol »

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #476 on: January 14, 2018, 01:01:44 PM »
It's a pretty commonly held belief among more moderate practicing Christians that the path to God is to do good, so if you lead a good life you'll end up partying on down in eternal joy with Him after your death - regardless of whether or not you believed in God while alive.

Yeah, some go even farther than that.  We call it the ”easy grace" doctrine because everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus died for your sins whether you like it or not.  Eternal salvation is a gift that cannot be refused.

But I wouldn't exactly call it ”common" among practicing Christians, just the new agey progressive ones that have a hard on for love for forgiveness.  That doesn't describe most of them.  Exclusionary and derogatory judgement of the nondeserving is one of the primary perks of joining a church, after all. Why bother, if you don't get to feel special?

You might be right on that front.

I spent a fair amount of my youth attending service at the United Church of Canada, which was a pretty easygoing church.  There was commonly held belief that the bible was a product of it's time and must be interpreted - not read literally, they advocated for same sex marriage in the 80s, they allow married/female/gay ministers, they're OK with abortion, believe that there are many paths to God, etc.  Last that I heard, the UCC was reviewing if an atheist minister would be allowed to head a church (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/atheist-pastor-canada-gretta-vosper-united-church-canada).

You should check them out, they're probably the most compatible church that exists for someone of your leanings.  :P

RetiredAt63

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #477 on: January 14, 2018, 04:44:44 PM »
It's a pretty commonly held belief among more moderate practicing Christians that the path to God is to do good, so if you lead a good life you'll end up partying on down in eternal joy with Him after your death - regardless of whether or not you believed in God while alive.

Yeah, some go even farther than that.  We call it the ”easy grace" doctrine because everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus died for your sins whether you like it or not.  Eternal salvation is a gift that cannot be refused.

But I wouldn't exactly call it ”common" among practicing Christians, just the new agey progressive ones that have a hard on for love for forgiveness.  That doesn't describe most of them.  Exclusionary and derogatory judgement of the nondeserving is one of the primary perks of joining a church, after all. Why bother, if you don't get to feel special?

You might be right on that front.

I spent a fair amount of my youth attending service at the United Church of Canada, which was a pretty easygoing church.  There was commonly held belief that the bible was a product of it's time and must be interpreted - not read literally, they advocated for same sex marriage in the 80s, they allow married/female/gay ministers, they're OK with abortion, believe that there are many paths to God, etc.  Last that I heard, the UCC was reviewing if an atheist minister would be allowed to head a church (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/atheist-pastor-canada-gretta-vosper-united-church-canada).

You should check them out, they're probably the most compatible church that exists for someone of your leanings.  :P

My Dad grew up United ( a lot earlier though) and he thought the Anglican church was pretty mellow in comparison.

I figure The Last Battle had it about right, when a young and good Calormene soldier was loved by Aslan and some of the talking animals lost their speech and went back to being dumb animals.  By your deeds are you judged, definitely.
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blinx7

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #478 on: January 14, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »
It's a pretty commonly held belief among more moderate practicing Christians that the path to God is to do good, so if you lead a good life you'll end up partying on down in eternal joy with Him after your death - regardless of whether or not you believed in God while alive.

Yeah, some go even farther than that.  We call it the ”easy grace" doctrine because everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus died for your sins whether you like it or not.  Eternal salvation is a gift that cannot be refused.

But I wouldn't exactly call it ”common" among practicing Christians, just the new agey progressive ones that have a hard on for love for forgiveness.  That doesn't describe most of them.  Exclusionary and derogatory judgement of the nondeserving is one of the primary perks of joining a church, after all. Why bother, if you don't get to feel special?

For those that are curious and want to learn more, from someone who is capable of a rational argument without falling into ad hominems within a few sentences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #479 on: January 14, 2018, 06:20:17 PM »
from someone who is capable of a rational argument without falling into ad hominems within a few sentences:

Did you just accuse me of attacking someone in particular?  Who? 

I've spent my entire life being told I will suffer and burn in the eternal flames of damnation, regardless of the life I lead.  That always feels kind of like a personal attack, too.


ysette9

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Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #480 on: January 14, 2018, 07:17:37 PM »
As long as we are going far off topic...

I remember as a kid sitting through a sermon describing what heaven supposedly was like. I can’t remember the part of the New Testament, but I believe one of the disciples had some trippy dream of heaven with roads made of gold and all of that. As a kid I thought that heaven sounded really boring. As an adult I get stuck on all of the conundrums that would need to be solved. What do you do if your first spouse who died young and your second spouse are both there? Doesn’t that get socially awkward? What is there to do? Sitting around watching lambs and lions hang out sounds boring to me. What do you eat and who does the cooking? What is the weather like and what if we can’t all agree on what temperature it should be? Is there a dress code, and if so, how do we agree with people rubbing elbows from many different times and cultures? If only one religion is indeed correct and all the rest are wrong, do the people who make it spend eternity gloating? If more than one religion is correct, do people spend eternity pissed off that they gave up on bacon for their entire earthly lives when it wasn’t necessary to make it? It just sounds like one logistical nightmare to me.
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Tabaxus

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #481 on: January 14, 2018, 07:20:54 PM »
So, I'm going to bring it back to the original post:

I, personally, can not wrap my head around it being OK for a person who has no real training in pedagogy or any of the substantive areas taught by schools to homeschool.  The process to become sufficiently trained to be a teacher is NOT TRIVIAL, and the ongoing education requirements are also NOT TRIVIAL.

I also believe that many (BUT NOT ALL, to be clear) homeschoolers use homeschooling as a mechanism to avoid having their children exposed to diversity and areas of substantive knowledge that the parents are not comfortable about. 

The first issue could be corrected by imposing rigorous substantive training requirements on homeschooling parents.  The second issue could be corrected by imposing rigorous substantive coursework obligations on homeschooling parents.  Both of those issues would hit a wall of people claiming that it was unfair/elitist/"FORCING ME TO RAISE MY KIDS IN A CERTAIN WAY"  (we also force people not to let their kids become coal miners when they're 10, so), so they would never get implemented, but EVEN IF these obstacles could be surpassed, I do not believe that the socialization opportunities available to homeschooled kids do the job that being in school does.

Of course, I also detest private schools on a fundamental level, so I admit that my views on all of this are kind of outlier. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 07:27:24 PM by Tabaxus »

PhilB

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #482 on: January 15, 2018, 02:29:28 AM »
I, personally, can not wrap my head around it being OK for a person who has no real training in pedagogy or any of the substantive areas taught by schools to homeschool.  The process to become sufficiently trained to be a teacher is NOT TRIVIAL, and the ongoing education requirements are also NOT TRIVIAL.
For an intelligent, well educated parent I don't see this as an issue at all - certainly not before high school and at the high school level they would often just need to study up to keep ahead of the kid.  Much of the formal teacher training is crowd control - which doesn't apply if you're only teaching one or two kids - and as for the rest of it I'd be confident that was more than outweighed by the better pupil/teacher ratio and the degree to which you get to understand how your own kid's mind works and what teaching methods will work best with them as individuals.
I will agree that in a perfect* world we would find a way to ban stupid people from homeschooling, but that's rather hard to legislate for.

*Actually, in a perfect world we'd dissuade stupid people from reproducing in the first place ;-)

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #483 on: January 15, 2018, 07:25:00 AM »
As long as we are going far off topic...

I remember as a kid sitting through a sermon describing what heaven supposedly was like. I can’t remember the part of the New Testament, but I believe one of the disciples had some trippy dream of heaven with roads made of gold and all of that. As a kid I thought that heaven sounded really boring. As an adult I get stuck on all of the conundrums that would need to be solved. What do you do if your first spouse who died young and your second spouse are both there? Doesn’t that get socially awkward? What is there to do? Sitting around watching lambs and lions hang out sounds boring to me. What do you eat and who does the cooking? What is the weather like and what if we can’t all agree on what temperature it should be? Is there a dress code, and if so, how do we agree with people rubbing elbows from many different times and cultures? If only one religion is indeed correct and all the rest are wrong, do the people who make it spend eternity gloating? If more than one religion is correct, do people spend eternity pissed off that they gave up on bacon for their entire earthly lives when it wasn’t necessary to make it? It just sounds like one logistical nightmare to me.

I always pictured heaven as similar to having your brain uploaded to a VR server.  Each person gets to make the heaven that he or she wants, you interact with any (indistinguishable) simulation of another person, place, or thing that you want.  Hell is other people, so the only way for everyone to be happy is total isolation from each other.

almcclur

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #484 on: January 15, 2018, 09:06:07 AM »
Thank you very much, almcclur. Your note speaks perfectly to my experience (personally and of the families I've connected with in four regions).

And thank you both for staying on topic.

Yeah, my pleasure! I don't know how it works but I wonder if it's possible to break this thread into two, so the religious debate can get it's own heading? Does anyone know?

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #485 on: January 15, 2018, 09:14:19 AM »
Yeah, my pleasure! I don't know how it works but I wonder if it's possible to break this thread into two, so the religious debate can get it's own heading? Does anyone know?

almcclur, you can PM a mod to make any requests re: threads. Mod online shows up in red on this page (none at this second, but usually one or two): https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php

There's too much in this thread to separate out now, but a mod can invite those talking about other topics to stop posting here and start a new thread about their distinct topic, or lock this one so all people who want to continue discussing a given topic are required to start new, focused threads.

almcclur

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #486 on: January 15, 2018, 09:40:11 AM »
So, I'm going to bring it back to the original post:

I, personally, can not wrap my head around it being OK for a person who has no real training in pedagogy or any of the substantive areas taught by schools to homeschool.  The process to become sufficiently trained to be a teacher is NOT TRIVIAL, and the ongoing education requirements are also NOT TRIVIAL.

I also believe that many (BUT NOT ALL, to be clear) homeschoolers use homeschooling as a mechanism to avoid having their children exposed to diversity and areas of substantive knowledge that the parents are not comfortable about. 

I've heard this view before, but it's just not accurate. It does not take any special training to teach your kids all the way through high school. It does, I think, take a certain personality--one who is willing to learn and be patient and seek help when needed. In fact up to at least 6th grade, pretty much any moderately educated person could teach an average child what he needs to know to be ahead of his peers in public school. The 1:1 student teacher ratio is just excellent for this age range. You don't have to guess about this information. If your assumption were true hs test scores would be terrible and they are not. Colleges welcome homeschoolers, who graduate at higher rates and with higher gpa's than their peers. I don't usually trot that kind of data out bc I don't think it means that hs is better than ps, but I do think it means your premise that parents can't teach their children well, is clearly false.

I also think (based on a fairly large sample size of all the homeschooling families I've encountered in my 10 years teaching) that your second statement is inaccurate. I have met a few who hs largely to keep their kids away from the negative elements of ps (drugs, sex, bullying, etc), and some who wanted their children to have a religious based education, but the vast majority wanted their kids to get an excellent education and thought they could do a better job than their local choices for whatever reason. My eldest is graduating this year and I can tell you that almost all the families with hs high schoolers are taking advantage of dual credit classes at the local junior colleges. They are not hiding vital educational information they are "not comfortable about."

Finally, something I've been thinking about lately. Today's workforce is undergoing a radical transformation. I have read estimates that up to 2/3 of today's grade schoolers will end up doing work that hasn't been invented yet. However, in many ways our current school system is not best suited for teaching children to think and act creatively. I'm sure some schools are already adapting to this, but by and large I'm still seeing an emphasis on testing, following directions, and completing very structured assignments in my daughters classes. I think that homeschooling could have some strong advantages here because of the freedom to dive into a subject deeply, and follow rabbit trails, and study unorthodox subjects as the passion emerges.


GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #487 on: January 15, 2018, 11:15:00 AM »
It does not take any special training to teach your kids all the way through high school.

I'm an engineer and like to consider myself pretty well-rounded.  I'd be comfortable teaching my own kid grade 12 physics, programming, algebra/geometry, calculus, and finite math.  With a significant investment of effort I'd probably be OK teaching Biology, Chemistry, Statistics, some parts of English (reading comprehension, creative writing), Music, and Environmental Science.  I'd be way out of my depth attempting to teach French, Spanish, Macro/Micro Economics, Business, some parts of English (oral presentations, media studies, sentence analysis), History, Psychology, and Art.

While you might be able to teach some stuff at a high school level without special training, it is a huge mistake to assume that this is true for all subjects.  High school teachers tend to specialize in just a few areas of study for decades because the topics are too broad to be easily covered by one person - no matter how smart.  At the very minimum you should be checking what is covered by public curriculum well in advance of teaching it, then figure out what you are actually competent at (a difficult task of itself) and find another few people who can fill in the gaps you miss.

almcclur

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #488 on: January 15, 2018, 11:44:55 AM »
You’re right—I wasn’t clear. It doesn’t take special training because by that age I’m outsourcing any subject I am not competent in. We do a lot of dual credit.

jeninco

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #489 on: January 15, 2018, 01:36:50 PM »
Also, this may not be relevant to many of the parents on here, but I tutor (math) in HS, and it's easy to see which kids had elementary school teachers who didn't like, or weren't really comfortable teaching math. I'd be concerned about having parents who are not themselves reasonably comfortable and fluent in math teaching it to their kids -- there are a lot of places where math education breaks down, but around 3rd/4th grade where we want kids to have a reasonably fluent understanding of basic arithmetic is a really importing point.

This means, for instance, that we'd expect a (5th grade) kid to be able to use several tactics to complete an arithmetic problem.
26*24 without paper is a good one to think about: you can re-group into
(25*4)*6 + 24, for instance,  or
(26*20) + (20*4) + (6*4), or
possibly count by 26s, or
tons of other ways that I'm not thinking of. Or you can always resort to pencil and paper and use the algorithm we learned a million years ago, multiplying column by column...

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #490 on: January 15, 2018, 02:33:19 PM »
Also, this may not be relevant to many of the parents on here, but I tutor (math) in HS, and it's easy to see which kids had elementary school teachers who didn't like, or weren't really comfortable teaching math. I'd be concerned about having parents who are not themselves reasonably comfortable and fluent in math teaching it to their kids -- there are a lot of places where math education breaks down, but around 3rd/4th grade where we want kids to have a reasonably fluent understanding of basic arithmetic is a really importing point.

This means, for instance, that we'd expect a (5th grade) kid to be able to use several tactics to complete an arithmetic problem.
26*24 without paper is a good one to think about: you can re-group into
(25*4)*6 + 24, for instance,  or
(26*20) + (20*4) + (6*4), or
possibly count by 26s, or
tons of other ways that I'm not thinking of. Or you can always resort to pencil and paper and use the algorithm we learned a million years ago, multiplying column by column...

Or my kid could just take out her phone and type 26*24 into the calculator app and immediately know the correct answer. :)

You're right, though. It's good for children to learn multiple strategies to enable them to think on their feet and at least come up with approximate answers without having to always resort to paper and pencil or a calculator.

Every day, I talk with my 9 year old daughter about short cuts she can use to figure things like that out. For example, we're constantly having to convert currencies in our heads. Every time we move to a different country, which uses different money, we have to come up with short cuts to help us approximate how much things cost without always having to get out a calculator to figure it out exactly.

We're also constantly having to calculate times in different parts of the world. Our nine year old often asks me to help her figure out things like, "If it's 5pm now in Malaysia and we're thirteen hours ahead of Memphis time, will my friend Alana be awake yet to play Minecraft? Okay, if Alana's still sleeping, what about Ruby in Melbourne? Melbourne is three hours ahead of Malaysia time, and Ruby has to go to bed by 10pm. If Alana wakes up at 7am Memphis time and Ruby has to go to bed at 10pm Melbourne time, how many hours will the three of us be able to play Minecraft before Ruby has to go to bed?"...

TBH, though, many times it's just easier to pull out my phone and look at the world clock app than it is to try to remember, "Okay, Auckland is five hours ahead of Kuala Lumpur and Melbourne is two hours ahead of Auckland, and I think Miami is thirteen hours behind KL, so how many hours is Auckland ahead of Miami?" WTF? I'll just look at the app. :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #491 on: January 15, 2018, 02:49:12 PM »
I've run across similar reasoning rather often in the past few years, enough that it's becoming a bit disturbing.

We do live in the information age.  It's possible to pull out a smartphone and find the answer to virtually any question in short order.  That doesn't mean that there's no value in learning and maintaining the general knowledge necessary to think.  The benefits of basic education are massively undervalued by many people.

MrsWhipple

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #492 on: January 15, 2018, 02:54:55 PM »
I, personally, can not wrap my head around it being OK for a person who has no real training in pedagogy or any of the substantive areas taught by schools to homeschool.  The process to become sufficiently trained to be a teacher is NOT TRIVIAL, and the ongoing education requirements are also NOT TRIVIAL.
As someone with a masters' in education, I could not disagree more. The amount of work and learning I had to do for my masters was about 1% of the work I had to do for my STEM undergraduate degree, and much of it was, in fact, trivial. The training was less rigorous than my IB coursework in high school. Many, many of my classmates in masters' classes were not people I would want teaching my children. All of the "NOT TRIVIAL" stuff you mention is honestly a bunch of red tape and hoops to jump through, that's it, and was one of the reasons I quit teaching, because I was wasting time on bullshit. Any teacher will tell you that no amount of pedagogy classes will teach you how to teach well or discipline a classroom.

I'm glad that there are some public schools with excellent teachers. I went to such a high school, ranked the best in our state, and I still felt I was wasting half of my time when I was there. At the public schools I taught at? I would never, ever let my child go there. Bullying, fights, busywork, crushing of curiosity - it made me sick. I did the best I could and got out very quickly. FWIW, I feel the same way about the private schools I taught for. Sticking a bunch of kids into a classroom and expecting everyone to progress at more or less the same rate is just a recipe for failure, and not the good kind of failure.

Parents don't need educational laurels and academic achievements to be a good homeschooler/unschooler to their child. They need to be curious, patient, supportive, and willing to admit that they don't know the answer all the time. While I agree that not a lot of parents are suited for homeschooling, it's not for lack of schooling or intellectual ability.

FIRE Artist

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #493 on: January 15, 2018, 02:56:25 PM »
I've run across similar reasoning rather often in the past few years, enough that it's becoming a bit disturbing.

We do live in the information age.  It's possible to pull out a smartphone and find the answer to virtually any question in short order.  That doesn't mean that there's no value in learning and maintaining the general knowledge necessary to think.  The benefits of basic education are massively undervalued by many people.

This, and if for no other reason, you have to understand how things are calculated if you want to get into the business of building a better app!

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #494 on: January 15, 2018, 03:02:06 PM »
So I think the comparison is appropriate. They both utilize hate speech and antagonize people. They are both bigoted.

I feel like you're deliberately avoiding my point.  Opposing hate speech is not bigotry.  Opposing violence is not antagonism. 

Equating the two sides of this debate is just like Trump saying there were very fine people on both sides of the Nazi protest march.  No, one side is promoting violence and the other side is opposing violence.  One side is promoting hatred and the other side is opposing hatred.  Do not make the same mistake that Trump makes.

@sol, while it's true there are some violent, dangerous right wing extremist nuts in North America, almost all of the violence that has happened at pro-Trump/free speech rallies around the country over the past year has been started by the Left, which is still seething with anger and hatred since it lost the election last November. If Antifa and BAMN and all the other regressive Left wing radicals would just stop physically attacking their political opponents and let them exercise their right to free speech, far right-wing outliers like the guys who marched with tiki torches at the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville would self destruct in the court of public opinion. If left-wing extremists who have been attacking Pro Trump/free speech rallies all over the US were really opposed to violence and hatred, they would hold their counter rallies at a distance from their opponents' and stop physically attacking them. But then they wouldn't get to punch "Nazis," aka regular middle class Americans who happen to be walking around wearing MAGA ball caps. If you don't believe me, try watching some of the many, many hours of live stream videos posted online of the events that happened in places like UCLA, Santa Cruz, Berkley, Boston, etc...

jeninco

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #495 on: January 15, 2018, 03:10:32 PM »
I've run across similar reasoning rather often in the past few years, enough that it's becoming a bit disturbing.

We do live in the information age.  It's possible to pull out a smartphone and find the answer to virtually any question in short order.  That doesn't mean that there's no value in learning and maintaining the general knowledge necessary to think.  The benefits of basic education are massively undervalued by many people.

Oh, for pete's sake: if you can't factor numbers, you won't be able to learn to factor equations (i.e. algebra 1). If you can't factor equations, you aren't going to be able to take derivatives (Calculus 1) or calculate integrals (Calculus 2) because you can't perform the basic arithmetic operations.  I've worked with several kids who can't solve multi-step geometry problems because they have to pull out their phone to compute 6*6, and it takes them completely off track of solving whatever they were trying to work on.

This whole "my kid doesn't need to learn to do arithmetic because they can use a calculator" thing is EXACTLY an example of why people who don't understand the whole scope of the K-12 math program shouldn't be teaching it. (Or at least shouldn't be making decisions about what is and isn't important in the math curriculum.)
/rant

ysette9

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #496 on: January 15, 2018, 03:13:51 PM »
I either have been asleep for the past year or I live in a different universe from Shane.
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jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #497 on: January 15, 2018, 03:20:34 PM »
...by that age I’m outsourcing any subject I am not competent in.

+1.

There continues to be confusion on this thread about the role of a parent in a homeschooling family. We aren't the sole teacher; we are one of several-to-many. Think of us as adminstrators or facilitators of a homeschool education (or unschooling), as others on the thread have suggested.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #498 on: January 15, 2018, 03:34:14 PM »
I either have been asleep for the past year or I live in a different universe from Shane.

Shane apparently thinks that crowd protesting the Nazi march in Charlottesville CLEARLY antagonized James Fields into driving his car into them. 

Just look at all of the "seething anger and hatred" that caused them to "physically attack" his car while they marched peacefully:  http://www.tmz.com/2017/08/13/charlottesville-car-attack-terrorist-white-supremacist-rally/

(Warning, graphic content of murder in Charlottesville).

Shane, that's pretty messed up.  To blame protestors for being "in proximity" to a Nazi march and therefor causing violence when the Nazis attacked, that's about the lowest and most subhuman thing I've heard today.  Shame, Shane, Shame.


Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #499 on: January 15, 2018, 03:36:11 PM »
I've run across similar reasoning rather often in the past few years, enough that it's becoming a bit disturbing.

We do live in the information age.  It's possible to pull out a smartphone and find the answer to virtually any question in short order.  That doesn't mean that there's no value in learning and maintaining the general knowledge necessary to think.  The benefits of basic education are massively undervalued by many people.

You're arguing against a straw man here, @GuitarStv. I sure never said there was, "no value in learning and maintaining the general knowledge necessary to think." Maybe you're referring to somebody else's post?