Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 61017 times)

PizzaSteve

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #300 on: January 02, 2018, 10:39:22 AM »
However, you are ignoring the fact that it's perfectly legal to homeschool by secluding a child, surrounding the child with few completely unqualified instructors, and deny real education.

I'm not ignoring this fact so much as I'm saying it's covered by abuse laws. If I were concerned about abuse, I would rely on abuse laws. If it's legal to abuse children in a given region, I would work to resolve the (lack of) abuse laws, not demand children go to B&M schools.

It is my understanding that none of the above are covered by abuse laws.  If I'm wrong, can you provide the abuse law number and subsections that you're talking about that cover what I was mentioning.  Specifically:
- A homeschooled child must be educated by competent people (degree in education for primary grades, post secondary degree demonstrating knowledge in secondary education).
- A homeschooled child must be socialized with a wide number and variety of different people.
- A homeschooled child must receive a certain minimum standard of education equivalent to that offered by the public school system.

I also don't think that what you suggested (attempting to regulate homeschooling through child abuse law legislation) makes any sense.  They should be regulated through the educational legislation that each state implements.



More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.

Well, that's silly.  If they can't read, give them phonics worksheets and tell 'em it's a diploma.  It's not like they're going to know.
PTF (great thread).

FYI there are 6.3 million students in California public schools.  Think a reporter can find a few problem situations?  Question GuitarStv, how many public school children have you taught?

PS, both wife and I are 100% CA public school taught Ivy League School Grads with advanced professional degrees.  We also happen to have multiple siblings and family members teaching in CA public schools  (while both of us are retired early, FI, ..our siblings are still working and teaching).  Your flippant comments are not respectful to the decades of work our families have made to public education in our great state.  Please respect their work and decades of personal sacrifices (including spending personal funds for student benefit) and in many cases possibly being the key influence in a bad home that changed a life from certain poverty to becoming a productive citizen.   I literally had a store manager at Staples on reading my name on a form tell me my sister saved her life, with a tear in her eye.

About three hundred children give or take during the period I spent teaching Taekwondo.  (Obviously this isn't comparable to what educators in a structured class do.)

My father taught special education, biology, and computer science during the 25 years he spent as an educator in Ontario's secondary school system.  My mom taught primary grades 2-4 for 30 years.  My step-mom spent 30 years teaching secondary school art, history, and later in her career became a consultant to help teachers develop more effective lesson plans.  I greatly respect teachers and all the hard work that they do (especially after years of observing just how much stuff goes on behind the scenes to make education work).  It's vitally important, and it doesn't get much credit.

I've always been against the idea of handing out a diploma to someone who hasn't earned it.  While the comment that I made was flippant, it is ridiculous to have a single high school graduate who is illiterate.  That's indication of a pretty huge failure of the system.  Pointing this out does nothing to disrespect the tremendous amount of good work that educators do.  The system that exists is very good, but sometimes people fall through the cracks.  Pretending that there's no problem does a disservice to everyone.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.   Whether reading is possible for all children and whether it should be a diploma requirement is an interesting topic.  Perhaps some different 'socialization' completion recognition diploma could be a compromise answer.

Eubonics as a recognition of some kids reality is not as rediculous as a white suburban adult might think, once you dig into the lives of real American urban youth and how they are living their lives.

As stated earlier, it helps society if a suffering kid is kept in school, receiving some sort of structure, vs roaming the streets in gangs. The ability to advance with peers, maybe play sports, etc can keep a kid out of a gang and ultimately dead, which is a real possible outcome here in Oakland. And yes, the possiblity to graduate can sometimes become an incentive that loses its meaning when offered to the ill prepared.  That said, some very functional people are unable to read.  For example, some groups in Laos did not have a literate history and an adult Laotian friend of mine is not literate, but a very functional adult.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Laos

Anyway, it is very different working with kids from that world and I assume you recognize that challenge for society.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 10:50:31 AM by PizzaSteve »
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Villanelle

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #301 on: January 02, 2018, 11:05:59 AM »
...handing your museum ticket to a ticket taker doesn't constitute much social interaction.

I agree. I don't know any HS communities that are largely limited to this + their families.

I'm very curious about these isolated, distressed, unfortunate situations some of you are running into. It's such a very different one than any I've run into, from a very involved position with hundreds of families. We're not the exception in any environment we've been in -we're the norm. Is there something extra weird in certain locations? Are these locations exceptionally absent in opportunities? Is the local culture one in which people shy away from each other?

...they simply aren't learning how to move in the world in ways that are expected of them.

This is true of some folks with specific disabilities, and some folks without disabilities (diagnosed or undiagnosed, homeschooling or B&M schooling). I've never seen any of these people learn this in a B&M school, either.

Some people don't have these skills naturally and are able to learn them enough to "pass" socially for some minutes. Some seem unable to learn them. Simple exposure to a random group doesn't suffice for some of us to learn the stuff -we can be in large groups for 12 years and still have no idea why things are going poorly for us socially. We can hang with people who don't mind our ways or (my preference for me and my kid) we can move to a therapeutic environment and learn the stuff others learn intuitively. But simply being in a B&M school doesn't make us normal.

Personally, I don't highly value "expected social norms." I value kindness, honesty, friendliness...but not just social norms in general. I'm friends with mostly "weird" adults who don't manage social norms, but are solidly good people who create, produce, connect...  Good enough for me! I've known a handful of people that were socially awkward in the way of being belligerent jerks -some were eventually diagnosed with neuro stuff, some declined to be assessed. It's important to me that my kid learn how to not do those behaviours, but I don't need anyone to live out all norms.

Cultivating originality is wonderful, as is teaching kids to resist pressures to conform.  But there's a point at which it becomes a disservice.

I agree on both counts.

But I'm not going to close my eyes to the very real issues that do exist in the homeschool community.

Me neither. Nor those in any other system/community.

I'd say 98% of the homeschool kids I know are part of the overseas military community.  I don't think they are isolated or that there are no opportunities.  Our community os nearly overflowing with kids.  There are sports programs around base, lots of play groups, etc. I'd say they spend more time in the "going to a museum" pursuits, or at home studying, than most other things.  Thus, when their kiddos come to larger group events (a summer picnic with a bunch of families, for example), the kids are ill prepared. 

You say that you don't value social norms.  I'm not sure what that means to you, exactly.  When I say that I'm talking about just walking up to a person, entering what is generally considered personal space (within 18 inches of another person), and literally standing motionless and staring, as one example.  It's, well... weird.  And not in a good way. And it's the kind of thing that is clearly overlooked in the family because it's just Timmy being Timmy.  But Timmy, who is apparently a generally neuro-typical child, has been ill-served because no one has told him that outside the family, that makes people--both adults and kids-- very uncomfortable.  It's incredibly unnerving.  It's hard to tell, but I think he kind of thinks it's funny because it makes people uncomfortable.  Admittedly, that's just a guess, but his motivation doesn't matter much.  I've seen his parents observe the behavior, not correct Timmy, and laugh about it.  "Timmy is such an original!"  Maybe we just disagree on whether this kind of thing is okay and whether it serves Timmy to allow it to continue.  But I worry greatly for Timmy's future.  I have no doubt he's bright and his academics are incredibly advanced and he's a smart kid.  I have no reason to think he's not a generally decent human being to that he's unkind or anything like that.  But I also see him struggling greatly at whatever point he actually leaves the nest.  Maybe that's high school if he's not always home schooled, or maybe it is when he wants to start dating, or when he goes off to college or when he tried to get a job, or what he's attempting to interact with coworkers or constituents or clients. 

Interesting, I see what I consider a related but different dynamic of families who send their young kids to the Japanese schools.  (I'm an American living in Japan.) What a wonderful opportunity!  And it truly is, when done thoughtfully.  I can't imagine what a leg up it is for a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 year old to be conversational in Japanese!  And many families do this and get all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.  Unfortunately, some families are not mindful of the fact that eventually, their children are going to return to the US and presumably go to US schools.  That means that things like reading and American vocabulary need to be supplemented at home, or the kids are going to struggle terribly when they get back to the US.  Another issue is that Japanese teachers are unlikely to notice things like speech impediments in their English students.  One child I know in particular (about 6 years old) has a very clear speech issue.  This is the kind of thing that is generally noticed by a teacher in a public school, so that the parents who either aren't aware of it or think it's just something Timmy will outgrow are made aware that is should be addressed.  Some parents are going to notice it and address it on their own, but others aren't, and those kids are at a disadvantage because there's no early intervention.  Again, that doesn't mean there's a problem with the practice of sending kids to local schools.  But it is a downside that does need to be address or the kids are going to pay a pretty high price. 

But that doesn't mean I don't think sending kids to the Japanese schools can be absolutely wonderful!  I just think that like with homeschooling (and public schooling, but that's not really what we are discussing), there are also possible pitfalls, and one needs to be aware of those and open to hearing about them, rather than being defensive, so that one can account for and address them. 

FINate

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #302 on: January 02, 2018, 11:15:37 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.   Whether reading is possible for all children and whether it should be a diploma requirement is an interesting topic.  Perhaps some different 'socialization' completion recognition diploma could be a compromise answer.

Eubonics as a recognition of some kids reality is not as rediculous as a white suburban adult might think, once you dig into the lives of real American urban youth and how they are living their lives.

As stated earlier, it helps society if a suffering kid is kept in school, receiving some sort of structure, vs roaming the streets in gangs. The ability to advance with peers, maybe play sports, etc can keep a kid out of a gang and ultimately dead, which is a real possible outcome here in Oakland. And yes, the possiblity to graduate can sometimes become an incentive that loses its meaning when offered to the ill prepared.  That said, some very functional people are unable to read.  For example, some groups in Laos did not have a literate history and an adult Laotian friend of mine is not literate, but a very functional adult.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Laos

Anyway, it is very different working with kids from that world and I assume you recognize that challenge for society.

Handing out undeserved diplomas undermines the incentive because it erodes the value of the credential, for everyone. Its value is diminished in the eyes of employers and society in general. There's a reason professional associations (e.g. Bar Association) are proponents of high standards for their profession.

If we're going to have standards for HS graduates then everyone must abide by those standards (incl. homeschoolers, via exit exams or other verification), otherwise the credential itself is worthless. Basic literacy is one of those requirements. If we're going to pass people along because the system decides it has done all it can, then at least come up with a different credential for this purpose. Otherwise such good intentions end up hurting everyone that actually completed the requirements.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 11:17:11 AM by FINate »

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #303 on: January 02, 2018, 11:54:26 AM »
I just think that like with homeschooling (and public schooling, but that's not really what we are discussing), there are also possible pitfalls, and one needs to be aware of those and open to hearing about them, rather than being defensive, so that one can account for and address them.

I agree 100%. Whatever approach to school a family chooses or is forced into, we need to have our eyes open to potential issues in any, and work to keep those in check. I see that as a critical aspect of parenting. Kids are strong, resilient, smart, capable...and also vulnerable to effects of the systems and cultures adults create. Keeping our eyes open to the inevitable disadvantages in any aspect of a society's culture is vitally important. (I view this as exactly equally so in homeschooling, B&M schooling, child employment, child daycare, etc, with none being more or less inherently problem-filled than another for all people.)

I really enjoyed your notes re: "Timmy", the Japanese schools, etc. I have more to say about Timmy's presentation and social norms, etc, but that's probably better for another thread, since it's not homeschool specific.
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DumpTruck

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #304 on: January 02, 2018, 12:08:54 PM »
I didn't know there was an anti-homeschooling sentiment. Who says they are ok?

Well, not reading all 300 responses but this is close to home. I was homeschooled from day 1 up to 9th grade, at which point I was in our church school, which might as well have been an extended home school. My graduating class was around 12 kids. All super christian, classical education.

Our classes went from 8am to 12 noon, Tues-Fri. So 16 total hours per week and the rest of the time was when you studied and did your homework.

College was a breeze (BSBA) compared to my high school education.

I also started working at age 15 and by 16 or 17, had met the public school kids through work, which was really exciting for me because I had an urge to party and socialize with females.

And how did I turn out? Well, on paper very well. I paid cash for every other semester of college and paid the loans off by the time I was 28. Make 6 figures, no debt besides the mortgage on my modest 780 sq ft home. Could easily get many different types of corporate jobs. I'm an attractive employee. I just ended up being disenchanted with what they teach kids in school. Basically it's wage-slave training with little do it yourself skills. Ah well. Perfect for the system.

MrsPete

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #305 on: January 02, 2018, 07:04:17 PM »
I completely agree with Gin1984. As someone raised religious who subsequently left all of that I am very aware of how Christianity is in the pores of so much of our regular lives, even living in a big coastal urban area. If I go to a southern state it is like being smacked up the face with it every where I turn. It really is inescapable.
Several people said similar things; assume I'm replying to all ...

I disagree.  I don't mean people aren't aware that Christianity exists; sure, the majority of Americans -- even if they go to church only for the occasional wedding or funeral -- are aware of Christianity, and most don't care much if there's a prayer before a meeting or whatever ... but more and more don't know what Christianity is actually about.  A couple things to consider ...   

Holidays:

Christmas is barely over -- my tree is still up -- but Christmas today is really a secular holiday.  People who never, ever attend church still celebrate Christmas.  Christmas may bear Christ's name, but Santa Claus and shopping is the real star.  Consider the things that've disappeared over the last decade:

- We used to hear about 50-50 religious vs. secular songs on the radio.  This year I heard plenty of Baby, It's Cold Outside, but I didn't hear Away in a Manger or Hark the Herald Angels Sing even once.  No one wants to offend the  non-religious.
- Similarly, it wasn't long ago that we saw many people wearing sweatshirts saying "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" or "Wise Men Still Seek Him".  I haven't seen any this year.  Not one.
- TV commercials (and other advertisements) have subtly left out the religious message ... while keeping some of the trappings of Christmas.  If you're not a Christian, you probably don't notice it.  For example, TV stars pose in front of a fireplace loaded with greenery, and they proclaim that the real message of Christmas is time with family -- or giving is better than receiving -- or it's a time to give to those in need.  Not bad messages, but absolutely not a religious message.  As I said, they do this subtly:  one commercial I noticed this year used geographic designs that looked rather like Christmas trees (but were pink and green instead of red and green) ... and girls carried bags that might've been gift bags or might've been gifts ... and the speaker proclaimed "That's the way we holiday".  Yeah, it's soooo close to Christmas, but it's really about shopping. 
- If you want to include anything religious in your Christmas celebration, you have to look for it.  It won't be in popular media or at the mall. 

Easter has almost dropped off the map for most people.  We get Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday off school instead of Good Friday now.  While I don't mean to insult that man in any way, given that he was a reverend, I have trouble thinking he would've wanted to take away Jesus' day. 

People really don't know what the Bible says /what Christianity is about anymore:


A decade ago my students understood Biblical references in literature.  I don't mean obscure references like the story of Susannah and the Elders; rather, today they don't understand that a David and Goliath situation means a little guy going up against a stronger opponent.  Our AP students now complete a unit that includes reading a children's Bible -- not for religious purposes, but so they'll understand the references. 

People mistakenly think old sayings are in the Bible; for example, Cleanliness is next to Godliness ... The Lord helps those who help themselves. 

Ask most people -- and I don't mean just kids -- what it takes to go to Heaven according to Christianity, and most will say something to the effect of, You need to do good deeds.  Or, Follow the tend commandments.  That's not in keeping with the Bible's message at all. 

Anecdote time!!  Just because a kid graduates public or private high school is also no proof that they have mastered the material they studied.  DH (longtime college professor) had a small handful of students each year in his science classes who could not do simple arithmetic.  I'm not talking calculus here. I'm talking questions like "What is 7 percent of 200?"  There was one student in particular that DH worked with very intensively to get his math up to scratch. (My hat is off to that guy. Most in that position dropped out of the class, but he didn't.  He dug in, and made up the ground.  Imagine -- with that drive -- what he could have done if he'd had a good education along the way!). The student honestly had no idea that he didn't know these things. He had gotten average to good grades in math in high school.

How on earth does this happen???  I can only conclude that the schools these kids attended aren't checking to see if the basics have been mastered, or not being honest about testing/grades. 
Yeah, I see similar things in my high school classroom:  Kids who are doing FINE in math class ask me how to average their three test grades.  Kids who zip through grammar worksheets neglect to capitalize proper nouns.  Why?  Because they don't generalize the knowledge.  They can complete a worksheet full of the same type of problem, yet when it's time to USE the information, they don't recall it /can't apply the proper skill.  Or, just as often, they're too lazy to think through which skill to use.

... Go read the "Brainy Bunch"* where the author sent her kids as young as 12 to community college.  I wouldn't have a problem doing so, I actually plan to as community college in my city is free for residents as soon as they are academically capable.  It's not like I'm going to leave them by themselves to party overnight.  They will attend class and group study and that's it.

EDIT:  What is wrong with teenagers going to school with adults? ...
That was interesting; I've never heard of this family before.  Clearly, however, they're not typical. 

As to "what's wrong with teenagers going to school with adults", it depends on the kid.  My oldest would've been fine with it; she would've enjoyed it and would've seen it as an affirmation of her intelligence; whereas, my youngest would've freaked out for no particular reason.  In fact, she came home from a freshman college class a few years ago and said, "Mom, an adult sat next to me today in class!"  I pointed out that SHE HERSELF is an adult, and she answered, "No, Mom, a real adult.  Like you."  It seemed odd to her, and it bothered her. 

Our local community college has a minimum student age of 16.
Ours too.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.   Whether reading is possible for all children and whether it should be a diploma requirement is an interesting topic.  Perhaps some different 'socialization' completion recognition diploma could be a compromise answer.
This exists.  My school houses the Special Ed program for our county, and we have three classrooms full of students who will never be able to read -- but they are learning skills that are within their grasp (self care, laundry, cooking, polite interaction with others, etc.).  At the end of their studies, they receive a diploma -- not the same one that the majority receive.  I forget what they call those diplomas. 

We actually have four levels of diploma ... but the vast, vast majority (more than 90%) receive the standard diploma. 

Handing out undeserved diplomas undermines the incentive because it erodes the value of the credential, for everyone. Its value is diminished in the eyes of employers and society in general.
I totally agree, and I think anyone reasonable agrees -- but the general public likes to read that 92% of the freshmen who enter our high school graduate within four years, and they want to buy houses in our area because of that.  And if we don't give diplomas to X percent of our students, we lose funding and our school will be taken over by specialists.  As it exists now, this is a lose-lose situation.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #306 on: January 02, 2018, 08:42:47 PM »
Christmas today is really a secular holiday. 

Let me make sure I understand correctly the point you are trying to make.  You are unhappy that your religious holiday has become so popular, so universally celebrated, so ubiquitous, so necessarily interwoven into the fabric of our society, that the original message of religious superiority is lost under the avalanche of good will?

Yea, that's really terrible.  I feel so bad for Christians now.  It must be horrible to be so persecuted that the entire world celebrates your holidays.
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Goldielocks

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #307 on: January 02, 2018, 11:24:19 PM »

I get the impression that a lot of home schoolers feel like primary school and high school teachers are just random adults who like kids.  They don't recognize any value in getting a degree in education.  They have no exposure to pedagogy, or strategies for behavioral problems, or specialized support for kids with disabilities.  They think any moron can stand at a blackboard and say "reach chapter 3, test on Friday" and call themselves a teacher.

I don't disagree, for the most part, but I do need to point out that parents don't need to have strategies for kids with disabilities, if their kids have disabilities.   They only need to be experts in strategies for their own kids.

Many parents, regardless of schooling choice, that I have met, have done a LOT of work to become specialists in what their own kids need.  Autism, high achievers, anxiety, dyslexia,  when a need is identified, interested parents often become that kid's specialist.

My kid has cancer (for real).  I don't need to take him to an oncologist who will work with him, I just need to become an expert myself and I will give him the appropriate chemos.  After all, I am an expert on strategies for my kid.  I've done A LOT of work to become a specialist on what my kid needs.

Sound pretty reckless and irresponsible, right?  And with cancer, that attitude could kill him.

My kid has Autism too (for real) and a learning disability (for real) and is also Gifted/Talented (for real). 

I also find it reckless and irresponsible for me to try to teach him instead of a special ed teacher.  Because even though I know my kid and they don't, they have a lot of experience with kids with his disabilities.  He started high school this year.  His teacher has been teaching high school kids with disabilities for literally decades.  Not to mention things like the fact he is in an AP class for a subject that I didn't take a singe class of in college.
 On the first day of school, I had exactly 1 day experience working with a high school student with a disability.

From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Whoa,  where's the attitude coming from?

On my earlier posts you will see that I am definitely pro-public school and "queasy" about the idea of home schooling becoming more than a fringe minority.   e.g., IMO, it may be a good thing for students laid up in hospital, or travelling a lot for film schedules or sports training, especially if they get home visits from the local district.   Also: taking kids out of school for a year, while the family travels, removing kids from gosh-awful school environments, etc.   There seems to be a valid place for it, as an exception.

My post you outraged on, was written to try to gently deflate a series of prior posts that seemed to be building to say that parents were worthless because they did not have specialized multi-year training for all types of learning disabilities, and should  therefore not teach their own kids.   I disagree that parents are unable to teach their kids, if they have the motivation to get the knowledge to do so.   I am glad the tone of the thread turned away from "other parents are idiots" themes.

Parents are the kids' best advocates, especially for kids with disabilities.  No one is going to care more about their kid getting the right tools than the parent.

Because you asked:
I have a child with a modest diagnosed learning disability.  Enough to get him extra supports for high school and a classification. Now that he is through elementary, he has developed many strategies to learn in the way he does best, and we should be smoother sailing from here on in.   I would say that I had a taste of what other parents go through, within the system, for a while.

In those elementary years,  I knew better about his needs than the untrained support workers at his small elementary who were mis-diagnosing him left and right.  He was not advanced to "full" testing because there was only funding for the lowest 3 kids in the grade, and he was #4, and a complacent, quiet sort that was easy on the teachers.   I had to take him to (and pay for) specialists for official testing and supports to get over the challenges they created through the wrong diagnosis.   Once the right diagnosis was made, the schools then came through with better supports.

.......

AND
I do hope you aren't taking your kid to your public school for their cancer treatments......[couldn't resist adding this, your comment is so extreme.]   I think that is a topic for a different thread, such as "Who should parents turn to if their kids have cancer?" ... this thread is about educational institutions and homeschool approaches.

Goldielocks

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #308 on: January 02, 2018, 11:50:12 PM »
The interesting question would be how many homeschooled engineers do you know?

I know none.

Three... but hmm,  they are all computer programmers, so......

Goldielocks

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #309 on: January 03, 2018, 12:19:07 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.   Whether reading is possible for all children and whether it should be a diploma requirement is an interesting topic.  Perhaps some different 'socialization' completion recognition diploma could be a compromise answer.

Eubonics as a recognition of some kids reality is not as rediculous as a white suburban adult might think, once you dig into the lives of real American urban youth and how they are living their lives.

As stated earlier, it helps society if a suffering kid is kept in school, receiving some sort of structure, vs roaming the streets in gangs. The ability to advance with peers, maybe play sports, etc can keep a kid out of a gang and ultimately dead, which is a real possible outcome here in Oakland. And yes, the possiblity to graduate can sometimes become an incentive that loses its meaning when offered to the ill prepared.  That said, some very functional people are unable to read.  For example, some groups in Laos did not have a literate history and an adult Laotian friend of mine is not literate, but a very functional adult.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Laos

Anyway, it is very different working with kids from that world and I assume you recognize that challenge for society.

Handing out undeserved diplomas undermines the incentive because it erodes the value of the credential, for everyone. Its value is diminished in the eyes of employers and society in general. There's a reason professional associations (e.g. Bar Association) are proponents of high standards for their profession.

If we're going to have standards for HS graduates then everyone must abide by those standards (incl. homeschoolers, via exit exams or other verification), otherwise the credential itself is worthless. Basic literacy is one of those requirements. If we're going to pass people along because the system decides it has done all it can, then at least come up with a different credential for this purpose. Otherwise such good intentions end up hurting everyone that actually completed the requirements.

Our public school system has had a two tier diploma system for many years now.   When it works well, for the reasons you state, it works very well.  Keeps kids legitimately struggling to gain the basics the ability to still achieve one type of diploma, that has some value in the working world.  (They have graduated high school, but with a different diploma category).

The flip side is that some districts graduate FAR TOO MANY students with that diploma, it is like the teachers give up and second track the students by grade 10, and then feel success just to graduate them.  Some of these students have learning disabilities, and many have a home environment that causes them to miss a lot of school (for family activities or because they are rural and school is very far away).

 The effort is on now to challenge those schools to increase the # of students with full diplomas, without dropping any of the students along the way.  Tough to do!

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #310 on: January 03, 2018, 08:43:39 AM »
It is my understanding that none of the above are covered by abuse laws.  If I'm wrong, can you provide the abuse law number and subsections that you're talking about that cover what I was mentioning.  Specifically:
- A homeschooled child must be educated by competent people (degree in education for primary grades, post secondary degree demonstrating knowledge in secondary education).

I don't view facilitation of learning by a nondegreed person as abuse. Several governments don't seem to either. (It seems some people might. I accept that some people might; I just disagree with that.)

- A homeschooled child must be socialized with a wide number and variety of different people.
- A homeschooled child must receive a certain minimum standard of education equivalent to that offered by the public school system.

Every region (country, etc) has its own laws. [Without spending endless hours cutting and pasting] I can't quote each law for each area.

But I can say that many regions have laws regarding a child's right to education, laws re: truancy, laws re: a minor child working during school hours or working more than x number of hours during school weeks, and laws against emotional abuse and neglect, which includes isolation. If a region lacks these laws, I would concern myself with getting these laws into place, in order to address concerns of child abuse (regardless of where the child is schooling/unschooling).

A warm, happy family of six living on their farm, homeschooling, socializing in their community four days out of each week, feeding the animals morning and night, with the kids heading out to Cadets every Tuesday night and swim meets every weekend isn't inherently abusive, including neglectful, so abuse laws that exist don't apply and we needn't be concerned.

If the crux of your concern is that facilitation of learning by nondegreed people is abuse, that could be an interesting conversation.

I also don't think that what you suggested (attempting to regulate homeschooling through child abuse law legislation) makes any sense.

I didn't suggest that. I suggested that abuse be addressed through abuse laws. This is in response to posts referring to abuse rather than to a homeschooling issue. In some cases, people are inappropriately conflating these, but they need to be addressed as the distinct topics they are.

I'm stuggling to understand what point you're arguing here.

I initially mentioned that there are benefits and disadvantages to both public education and homeschooling.  Public school is regulated to provide a minimum quality of education and to ensure that instructors are knowledgeable and qualified.  Homeschooling does not have these requirements, but motivated individuals can provide an education specifically tailored to the strengths and weaknesses of a child.  Therefore homeschooling has the potential to be both better, and worse than public education.

You then claimed that abuse laws provide protection to homeschooled children regarding education and socialization.  Abuse laws do not cover education and proper socialization via homeschooling.  This is why you were unable to find any that do so when asked about it.  No, I don't believe that education from someone without a degree is abuse.  I do believe that many subjects are difficult to impossible for the average person without a degree to effectively teach though (advanced level physics, calculus, finite math, chemistry, other languages, etc).  Providing a child with a poor education is not legislated as abuse though, so people homeschooling are free to educate in whatever (good or bad) way that they feel is best.  No laws exist that require a child be allowed to play with other children of the same age.  If I wanted to restrict my child's interactions to the people in my immediate family only, that wouldn't be legally considered abuse (despite the detrimental pact it may have on his development) because it's not total isolation.  Standard of education for homeschooling is minimally regulated in a few US states, but the vast majority do not regulate it in any meaningful way.  (Canada's homeschooling minimum requirements are also pretty skimpy.)

As has been mentioned several times, I get why people would want to homeschool.  There are valid reasons to do so.  In many cases it can provide an excellent education.  What I'm having trouble understanding is why you refuse to acknowledge that a bad homeschooling situation can be detrimental to a child's wellbeing - while also not being serious to be legally considered abuse.  There are quite valid reasons to homeschool, but there are quite valid objections to how the practice is implemented by some parents.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #311 on: January 03, 2018, 09:47:27 AM »
@MrsPete
Quote
People really don't know what the Bible says /what Christianity is about anymore:

A decade ago my students understood Biblical references in literature.  I don't mean obscure references like the story of Susannah and the Elders; rather, today they don't understand that a David and Goliath situation means a little guy going up against a stronger opponent.  Our AP students now complete a unit that includes reading a children's Bible -- not for religious purposes, but so they'll understand the references. 

People mistakenly think old sayings are in the Bible; for example, Cleanliness is next to Godliness ... The Lord helps those who help themselves. 

Ask most people -- and I don't mean just kids -- what it takes to go to Heaven according to Christianity, and most will say something to the effect of, You need to do good deeds.  Or, Follow the tend commandments.  That's not in keeping with the Bible's message at all. 

Barna has been polling Christians for decades.  The Christian church is not Christian in the US.  Read this.  This is why when I talk to homeschoolers about the Christian education they claim they're giving their children, I get frustrated.  They don't know the milk of the Christian faith.  They might even hold to heretical beliefs.  There's plenty of evidence on this thread of kids who've left the faith and their testimonies sound and awful lot like they were given a false gospel.  But the LORD -they believe- told their parents to homeschool for religious reasons.  I wonder how they know this.  They discern God's will so poorly in his Word when it comes to other matters of life and doctrine, how do they know they are called to homeschool when the Bible is silent on school choice? How many of these parents have daily family worship and catechism and take their kids to a gospel-preaching church on Sunday?

Personally, I'm happy if anyone chooses ANY of the school choices available in the US for the RIGHT REASONS. My kids are public schooled but I'm thinking of sending them to Christian school because I don't like the state government's continuous pursuit of its values in our K-12 schools against the wishes of teachers and parents. 

I've been reading a lot on this topic lately.  This book is very good.  So is "The Collapse of Parenting" by Leornard Sax.  So is this one.

EDIT: fixed links
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:11:36 PM by Lance Burkhart »

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #312 on: January 03, 2018, 09:54:09 AM »
@DumpTruck I'm interested in what your parents taught you (which books, what curricula, what are their backgrounds).

@arebelspy Can you help me out here? Out here, public school parents with accelerated kids have trouble finding accelerated tracks for their kids.  There is a scramble for limited slots in charter schools, but some kids are left out and the state teacher's union is on a constant jihad against charter schools.  I may supplement my kids' k-12 education by teaching math at home (I am an electrical engineer). I'm interested in learning better teaching methods.

Quote
A reasonably intelligent person willing to research teaching methods and techniques can probably do better than an expert with 30 kids, at the low level content areas. I would not count most people in this category (reasonably intelligent, willing to seek help and able to do so, etc.) though.

MrsPete

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #313 on: January 03, 2018, 11:36:48 AM »
Christmas today is really a secular holiday. 

Let me make sure I understand correctly the point you are trying to make.  You are unhappy that your religious holiday has become so popular, so universally celebrated, so ubiquitous, so necessarily interwoven into the fabric of our society, that the original message of religious superiority is lost under the avalanche of good will?

Yea, that's really terrible.  I feel so bad for Christians now.  It must be horrible to be so persecuted that the entire world celebrates your holidays.
It's a fine twist on words with an excellent attempt to insert an attitude that wasn't present in my post; however, no.  Christmas wasn't originally about God's gift to the world, not superiority; and it isn't about good will today -- it's about material goods and commercialization. 

Barna has been polling Christians for decades.  The Christian church is not Christian in the US.  Read this
I'd like to read this, but the link doesn't work. 

GoConfidently

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #314 on: January 03, 2018, 11:42:10 AM »
I completely agree with Gin1984. As someone raised religious who subsequently left all of that I am very aware of how Christianity is in the pores of so much of our regular lives, even living in a big coastal urban area. If I go to a southern state it is like being smacked up the face with it every where I turn. It really is inescapable.
Several people said similar things; assume I'm replying to all ...

I disagree.  I don't mean people aren't aware that Christianity exists; sure, the majority of Americans -- even if they go to church only for the occasional wedding or funeral -- are aware of Christianity, and most don't care much if there's a prayer before a meeting or whatever ... but more and more don't know what Christianity is actually about.  A couple things to consider ...   


Some of us are very aware of what Christianity is actually about and think that the less religious our society becomes the better it will be for everyone. We have good reason to believe this.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

"The correlation is clear and strong: the more secular tend to fare better than the more religious on a vast host of measures, including homicide and violent crime rates, poverty rates, obesity and diabetes rates, child abuse rates, educational attainment levels, income levels, unemployment rates, rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancy, etc. You name it: on nearly every sociological measure of well-being, you’re most likely to find the more secular states with the lowest levels of faith in God and the lowest rates of church attendance faring the best and the most religious states with the highest levels of faith in God and rates of church attendance faring the worst."

The reason religion gets brought up in this home school conversation so much is because some parents can't see the difference between education and their beliefs. Overwhelmingly home school parents (on here and elsewhere) say that they don't want any government oversight in their home school curriculum. For many of them, that's because they want to teach religion in place of actual curriculum. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 91 percent of homeschooling parents want to offer a religious (64 percent) and/or moral (77 percent) alternative. That's a huge chunk of the home schooling families, and those children deserve a complete education. Refusing to educate children on certain topics, or purposely teaching outdated and incorrect information because it corresponds to one particular ancient text, is not an education, and it's dangerous for those children and our society as a whole.

simonsez

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #315 on: January 03, 2018, 12:56:02 PM »
Christmas today is really a secular holiday. 

Let me make sure I understand correctly the point you are trying to make.  You are unhappy that your religious holiday has become so popular, so universally celebrated, so ubiquitous, so necessarily interwoven into the fabric of our society, that the original message of religious superiority is lost under the avalanche of good will?

Yea, that's really terrible.  I feel so bad for Christians now.  It must be horrible to be so persecuted that the entire world celebrates your holidays.
It's a fine twist on words with an excellent attempt to insert an attitude that wasn't present in my post; however, no.  Christmas wasn't originally about God's gift to the world, not superiority; and it isn't about good will today -- it's about material goods and commercialization. 
Fine, let's call it Satanmas or Secularmas then.  If it's a secular holiday, then no one should have a problem with the name change.  But lo and behold, at least a quarter of the country gripes every year about keeping the "Christ in Christmas".

What percentage of the populace would take offense if Ramadan took the place of Memorial Day or anything like that because it wouldn't be 100% secular.

I pledge allegiance...under Buddha...

Doesn't our money say In Muhammad We Trust?

Happy New Year (the 2018th year of our Lord, of course)!

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #316 on: January 03, 2018, 02:08:24 PM »
Fine, let's call it Satanmas or Secularmas then.  If it's a secular holiday, then no one should have a problem with the name change.  But lo and behold, at least a quarter of the country gripes every year about keeping the "Christ in Christmas".

What percentage of the populace would take offense if Ramadan took the place of Memorial Day or anything like that because it wouldn't be 100% secular.

I pledge allegiance...under Buddha...

Doesn't our money say In Muhammad We Trust?

Happy New Year (the 2018th year of our Lord, of course)!
When people complian about religious references in the public space I wish they would remember that explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #317 on: January 03, 2018, 02:28:16 PM »
explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.

So you think atheism is theism?

In that case, my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps.

Your argument fundamentally misunderstands (or perhaps intentionally misrepresents) what atheism is.  It is not a religion, any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby.  It is the absence of belief in counterfactual narratives.  It does not presuppose or require a complete understanding of a factual narrative, only that you willing abandon the obviously wrong ones.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

almcclur

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #318 on: January 03, 2018, 02:43:57 PM »
So many thoughts. We are a military family with 3 kids and homeschool 2 of them. We've moved 8 times since my oldest started school--3 times in his high school years.

 

My daughter goes to the local public middle school. She loves it and does very well there, enjoying pre-AP classes and extra curricular activities. She also tells me about the drugs in the bathroom, the never-ending F-bombs on the bus, the weird kid who stands too close and stares at her constantly, and the class where the teacher tells them to read the book and then do the worksheet, every single day. The school is not interested in parent participation--I've tried. Despite the negatives, overall I'm mostly satisfied with her education, though I'm willing to re-evaluate at any time.

 

We homeschool my oldest who just turned 18. He has Asperger's (yes ASD) and school was failing him when we pulled him out in 1st grade. Even with a 1:1 aide, it was a very bad fit. If he had been made to suffer through it he would be a very different person today. He still has his challenges, but after years of therapy and homeschooling, he will be graduating this year with over 50 hours of college credits, and so far has been accepted into 3/5 of his preferred colleges with significant scholarships. We have been gradually preparing him for a college environment with more and more group classes and mandatory activities, though he still sometimes pushes back. If you met him on the street you might say, "oh there's one of those weird homeschoolers." But the truth is that we hs because he's "weird", not the other way around. PS might have ironed out some of his wrinkles a little better, but his actual education would have suffered immeasurably.

 

We also homeschool my youngest son, who is 11. I would consider him your typical kid. He's super smart in some areas and average or even below average in others. He's a kinetic learner and was miserable in kindergarten, which had no regular recess. By December he was in the slow reading group and had stomach aches every morning before school. In the end it was just not the best learning environment for him. We brought him home and he was reading at grade level within the month.

He is exactly the type of kid who would fall through the cracks in school. At home he gets all A's bc we don't move on until he learns something thoroughly. If left to his own devices he would put in the bare minimum and skate through with C's or D's even. He would be labeled dumb even though he just isn't interested. And he would start to think of himself as dumb, like he had already started to in Kindergarten. Instead he knows that he's great with tools and mechanical stuff, and animals, and cooking, and that if he has to he can diagram a sentence and plot the voyages of the early explorers on a map. We are always open to considering ps for him in the future, but I accept that his education will suffer if we do.

We found that homeschooling the early years is really easy. I can get them above grade level in about 3 hours a day up to 4th grade or so. I'm not an "expert," but one on one tutoring at that level just isn't hard. (Except for the patience factor!) Around 6th grade I start outsourcing certain subjects. By high school I'm more of a learning facilitator and overseer. There's not enough time in the week to fit in all the different activities, and groups, and clubs, so we have to pick and choose, but the options here (huge city) are limitless.

All this is to say that I strongly value the freedom to make whatever choices are best for my kids and also appreciate that our current state doesn't interfere with my choices at all.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #319 on: January 03, 2018, 03:22:05 PM »
explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.

So you think atheism is theism?

In that case, my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps.

Your argument fundamentally misunderstands (or perhaps intentionally misrepresents) what atheism is.  It is not a religion, any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby.  It is the absence of belief in counterfactual narratives.  It does not presuppose or require a complete understanding of a factual narrative, only that you willing abandon the obviously wrong ones.
Sol, you can be so poor at reading comprehension sometimes. I clearly stated that I think that the belief that there is no god is a religious point of view. I think agnostics (we don't/can't know if their is a god or not) are non-religious.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #320 on: January 03, 2018, 03:35:06 PM »
clearly stated that I think that the belief that there is no god is a religious point of view.

It's not a "belief" to discard things that are factually disproven.  I do not "believe" that 2+2 does not equal 500.  This is not a matter of faith.

For example, prayer is a lie. It doesn't work.  Every single double blind study every conducted agrees that praying for something, anything, is a feelgood waste of time.  Unless you're praying for a feelgood waste of time.  I don't "believe" that prayer works or doesn't work, because we can test it and know the real answer.  I don't have to know what does work in order know that prayer doesn't work.

There is nothing religious about my knowledge of the efficacy of prayer.  It is not a belief, it is knowledge plainly there for anyone to see.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

birdman2003

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #321 on: January 03, 2018, 04:12:49 PM »
I had public school for K-3, homeschool for 4-8, and then a mix of both for grades 9-12.  Played sports and band at the public school.  Played sports and choir with the homeschool group.  Got a good mix of both.  I would prefer homeschool for my kids if we have kids someday.

jeninco

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #322 on: January 03, 2018, 04:43:30 PM »
explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.

So you think atheism is theism?

In that case, my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps.

Your argument fundamentally misunderstands (or perhaps intentionally misrepresents) what atheism is.  It is not a religion, any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby.  It is the absence of belief in counterfactual narratives.  It does not presuppose or require a complete understanding of a factual narrative, only that you willing abandon the obviously wrong ones.

Then what's agnosticism? There's probably lots more of that out there than anything else.

I mean, I can't be bothered with your un-provable beliefs and don't care what you do, until you start trying to enact policy and that affects other people based on your explicitly religious beliefs.

(And even then, I'll be standing right there with you, because it turns out "feed the hungry" and "clothe the naked" aren't merely Christian beliefs. It's when you get to dopey ideas like "don't teach children science" and "limit what adult women can do with their bodies" and "deny science in the name of furthering petrochemical profits" that I'll be opposed.)


WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #323 on: January 03, 2018, 07:03:04 PM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

Undecided

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #324 on: January 03, 2018, 09:08:40 PM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

No atheist has ever come to my door to educate me about atheism.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #325 on: January 03, 2018, 09:31:57 PM »
I see this thread has veered into a number of subtopics since I was last here. But I want to respond to your post to me, GuitarStv, because I respect your focus and manner and appreciate the conversation.

You then claimed that abuse laws provide protection to homeschooled children regarding education and socialization.  Abuse laws do not cover education and proper socialization via homeschooling.  This is why you were unable to find any that do so when asked about it.

No. I was unable to paste any in because I didn't copy any. I'm familiar with the laws covering the items I specified and I know anyone here is able to locate them, too. If a person lives in an area lacking laws covering those items I specified, I'd be interested to hear about that (and then I would likely dig into legal info there, out of interest and curiousity).

No, I don't believe that education from someone without a degree is abuse.

We're agreed here, and I do appreciate the confirmation.

No laws exist that require a child be allowed to play with other children of the same age.

I, too, am unfamiliar with such a law. I'm glad it doesn't seem to exist, as I would feel that's a very weird one and unjustified. (I'm absolutely not opposed to kids of the same age hanging together, but I don't think it's necessary either. I do think it's vastly more helpful for a child to hang out with a wider age range, and specifically people ages 0-110 their whole lives. Naturally, that would usually include a few around their own age.)

What I'm having trouble understanding is why you refuse to acknowledge that a bad homeschooling situation can be detrimental to a child's wellbeing

I think what I'm saying is understandable. I see that certain things in any situation can be detrimental -just that those things are not specific to homeschooling.

I wonder if I'm just not communicating this effectively. I'm not sure how else to say it, though.

I agree that children should not be isolated or abused, in any context (homeschool, B&M school, daycare, child employment). There are valid reasons for homeschool, B&M school, daycare, and child employment. Abuse should not be permitted in any of these. Where abuse happens in one of these -and it does happen to children in every single one of these places- the abuse should be addressed, not the form of schooling or other healthy activity. Basically, not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm sorry, I wish I could think of another way to phrase what I'm trying to say. I can't, though, so I'm essentially repeating myself, which is probably not going to feel like a productive contribution for you :(
I am well and happy, and doing a series of brief forum breaks as part of self-care :)

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #326 on: January 04, 2018, 04:07:11 AM »
clearly stated that I think that the belief that there is no god is a religious point of view.

It's not a "belief" to discard things that are factually disproven.  I do not "believe" that 2+2 does not equal 500.  This is not a matter of faith.

For example, prayer is a lie. It doesn't work.  Every single double blind study every conducted agrees that praying for something, anything, is a feelgood waste of time.  Unless you're praying for a feelgood waste of time.  I don't "believe" that prayer works or doesn't work, because we can test it and know the real answer.  I don't have to know what does work in order know that prayer doesn't work.

There is nothing religious about my knowledge of the efficacy of prayer.  It is not a belief, it is knowledge plainly there for anyone to see.

@sol, If by prayer you only mean humans asking an imaginary magical sky father for favors, then you're right. It doesn't work.

In many ways, though, traditional prayer is similar to meditation and creative visualization, which do work. Many people use mediation along with creative visualization to help themselves achieve goals. If, for example, an athlete or student or employee closes her eyes and over and over again pictures herself achieving some goal, be it winning a race, graduating or getting a promotion or a raise, pretty sure her chances of succeeding increase.

Just because some people call their meditation and visualization exercises "prayer," doesn't mean it can't work. It's not a coincidence that the environment in churches, mosques and temples is similar to what people consciously try to create for themselves when they meditate. When people "pray," just like when they meditate, they calm their minds, focus their concentration and picture the things that they want to come true in their lives, over and over again.

It may be difficult to prove this point in an objective scientific study, but I'm pretty sure it works.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #327 on: January 04, 2018, 06:38:58 AM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

No atheist has ever come to my door to educate me about atheism.

Nah, they have social media. It's the 21st century.

Bourbon

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #328 on: January 04, 2018, 06:54:56 AM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

I'll break my rule and post on this, but I'm atheist and 99.9% of people I know don't know that. I would wager you know many more atheists than you know.

Atheism is a lack of belief.
Agnosticism is a lack of knowing.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  People who label themselves as one verse the other aren't more virtuous etc, more of a confusion of the terms to try and vilify one over the other in the cultural dialogue.

That's all I will post on the matter.  Feel free to PM if you really want to hear more from me, but I don't really have much invested in and don't have much more to say.

Gondolin

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #329 on: January 04, 2018, 07:03:59 AM »
Quote
Many people use mediation along with creative visualization to help themselves achieve goals. If, for example, an athlete or student or employee closes her eyes and over and over again pictures herself achieving some goal, be it winning a race, graduating or getting a promotion or a raise, pretty sure her chances of succeeding increase.

This idea gets a lot of play in pop psych magazines and life coaching brochures but, has it ever been tested in a repeatable, scientific way with a large N sample size? Most of the evidence seems to be ex-post-facto anecdotes from already elite athletes coupled with a few small-N (N<=30) psych studies that have not been replicated. Given that social psychology is currently being staggered by a full blown replication crisis, I'm curious if any of the studies on visualisation have been validated.
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me1

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #330 on: January 04, 2018, 07:09:07 AM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

No atheist has ever come to my door to educate me about atheism.


Nah, they have social media. It's the 21st century.

I am a huge fan of your journal and your writing WhiteTrashCash, but I think you are generalizing here, and not advancing the conversation in any way.
I am an atheist. I never tell people I am an atheist, because (although I am a scientist) it could have negative consequences on my career. It also means people make stupid presumptions about what I believe based on some encounters they have had before, and then... generalize.
It's completely counter-productive to tell other people what YOU think they believe. I only ever bring it up if people start saying shit about atheists that is completely ridiculous. I've been told before "I can't believe you are an atheist, you are so nice." WTF? I don't think that's a compliment.
I think you have the right to believe what you believe. I do think that the dominant religion is everpresent, and infringes on the rights of those who are not a part of it. But I don't think you as an individual shouldn't have the right to believe what you believe. 
In my experience, the ratio of militant atheists to non-militant ones is quite low. But the loud ones are the ones you notice. Just like with religious people... proselytizing religions are more likely to grate on people than ones that have no converting agenda...
Anecdotally, I think I have only ever met one militant atheist in my life, and it was a friend of a friend, and he was super annoying. All other atheists I know are really not that into it. It only comes up in response to someone being an ass about your opinions, or someone trying to shove theirs down your throat. It's kind of hard to have something you don't believe in be central to your life. Most of the time I don't think about the fact that I don't believe in god, I just go on about my day. It's not like I have to make time to "not pray" or "not go to church."

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #331 on: January 04, 2018, 07:17:44 AM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

I'll break my rule and post on this, but I'm atheist and 99.9% of people I know don't know that. I would wager you know many more atheists than you know.

Atheism is a lack of belief.
Agnosticism is a lack of knowing.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  People who label themselves as one verse the other aren't more virtuous etc, more of a confusion of the terms to try and vilify one over the other in the cultural dialogue.

That's all I will post on the matter.  Feel free to PM if you really want to hear more from me, but I don't really have much invested in and don't have much more to say.

From what I've seen and experienced in talking/interacting with many atheists (not all, obviously), they think Neil DeGrasse Tyson is some kind of prophet who will bring about a utopia by doing away with "irrational thinking". There are even factions opposed to one another -- like different denominations of religions -- who can get aggressive with one another over perceived lack of "rationality" (i.e. Having different thoughts about things.) And then they post memes against water fluoridation.

All I'm saying is that a lot of atheists aren't really irreligious. They just view Science in a religious way, like it's some kind of magic instead of something used to observe and understand the known universe.

By the way, I was amused by Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "Cosmos" series because the very first episode focused on the Catholic Church's supposed evil anti-Science stance, when the reality is that the Church fully embraces Science and has for centuries and actually has helped develop many scientific fields and discoveries through their vast network of schools and colleges.

I guess folks just like to play victim, though, which I get. A lot of Christians pretend to be persecuted too.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:19:35 AM by WhiteTrashCash »

me1

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #332 on: January 04, 2018, 07:23:28 AM »
Oh, I see now. You actually have issues with people who are into scientism, not atheists. There is some overlap for sure, but it's not the same thing at all. I find scientism annoying too! Anyone who has actually done science, not just read about it, cannot possibly blindly believe in science.
I do think science is a very valuable pursuit, but cannot be used to explain everything. You are right, though, there are people who just need to "believe" in something, and so they just replace religion with science.
I don't think this is equivalent to atheism.




From what I've seen and experienced in talking/interacting with many atheists (not all, obviously), they think Neil DeGrasse Tyson is some kind of prophet who will bring about a utopia by doing away with "irrational thinking". There are even factions opposed to one another -- like different denominations of religions -- who can get aggressive with one another over perceived lack of "rationality" (i.e. Having different thoughts about things.) And then they post memes against water fluoridation.

All I'm saying is that a lot of atheists aren't really irreligious. They just view Science in a religious way, like it's some kind of magic instead of something used to observe and understand the known universe.

By the way, I was amused by Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "Cosmos" series because the very first episode focused on the Catholic Church's supposed evil anti-Science stance, when the reality is that the Church fully embraces Science and has for centuries and actually has helped develop many scientific fields and discoveries through their vast network of schools and colleges.

I guess folks just like to play victim, though, which I get. A lot of Christians pretend to be persecuted too.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #333 on: January 04, 2018, 08:19:22 AM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.

No atheist has ever come to my door to educate me about atheism.


Nah, they have social media. It's the 21st century.

I am a huge fan of your journal and your writing WhiteTrashCash, but I think you are generalizing here, and not advancing the conversation in any way.
I am an atheist. I never tell people I am an atheist, because (although I am a scientist) it could have negative consequences on my career. It also means people make stupid presumptions about what I believe based on some encounters they have had before, and then... generalize.
It's completely counter-productive to tell other people what YOU think they believe. I only ever bring it up if people start saying shit about atheists that is completely ridiculous. I've been told before "I can't believe you are an atheist, you are so nice." WTF? I don't think that's a compliment.
I think you have the right to believe what you believe. I do think that the dominant religion is everpresent, and infringes on the rights of those who are not a part of it. But I don't think you as an individual shouldn't have the right to believe what you believe. 
In my experience, the ratio of militant atheists to non-militant ones is quite low. But the loud ones are the ones you notice. Just like with religious people... proselytizing religions are more likely to grate on people than ones that have no converting agenda...
Anecdotally, I think I have only ever met one militant atheist in my life, and it was a friend of a friend, and he was super annoying. All other atheists I know are really not that into it. It only comes up in response to someone being an ass about your opinions, or someone trying to shove theirs down your throat. It's kind of hard to have something you don't believe in be central to your life. Most of the time I don't think about the fact that I don't believe in god, I just go on about my day. It's not like I have to make time to "not pray" or "not go to church."
My husband is mostly agnostic (leaning towards atheist but still not 100% sure) and he keeps it to himself for the same reason, harm to his career.  Maybe those who are willing to take the risk, have responded by being aggressive about it?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #334 on: January 04, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
Oh, I see now. You actually have issues with people who are into scientism, not atheists. There is some overlap for sure, but it's not the same thing at all. I find scientism annoying too! Anyone who has actually done science, not just read about it, cannot possibly blindly believe in science.
I do think science is a very valuable pursuit, but cannot be used to explain everything. You are right, though, there are people who just need to "believe" in something, and so they just replace religion with science.
I don't think this is equivalent to atheism.


Huh?  Scientism?  I am a scientist (just because I am retired doesn't mean I am no longer a scientist).  Science is not a belief system, science is a way of figuring out how the world works.   So as a biologist, I do not *believe* in evolution, I *think* that the theory of evolution is a good explanation of how all this biological diversity developed.  And part of the way science works is that if well-supported evidence turns up that disproves part of a theory, the theory gets adjusted.  And sometimes the whole theory gets replaced by a new one.  And then the new one gets tested and adjusted.

I think the thing that sums up this attitude to me is a story a colleague told me.  He was in a geology class when his professor, who had just returned from a conference, walked into the class and told them to rip up all their notes, everything he had told them was wrong.  The professor had been to the conference where all the varying bits and pieces got put together and the theory of plate tectonics was sorted out.  Doesn't seem much like religious dogma to me.

On the other hand, people who are not scientists seem to often want scientists to speak in absolutes - if someone is willing to adjust theories as new information comes along, because they know they do not have all the information and their hypotheses are a reflection of truth, not truth itself, they are not going to want to speak in absolutes.   Is this scientism?  The expectation that scientists already know everything and have everything 100% right? 
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #335 on: January 04, 2018, 08:42:05 AM »

 It's kind of hard to have something you don't believe in be central to your life. Most of the time I don't think about the fact that I don't believe in god, I just go on about my day. It's not like I have to make time to "not pray" or "not go to church."
[/quote]

This sums up my type of "atheism" perfectly.  I use quotations because I don't even identify with the term atheist, I was raised without religion, and without a belief in a creator, and never felt the need to have a label to describe the lack of those things in my life.  My parents never used the term atheist to decribe us, not once.  Atheist is a term I learned later on in life, when someone tried to tag me with that label after explaining that I simply didn't have faith in my life.  I suspect that there are a lot of people out there like my family.

To me, the need to even have the term atheist, is like having to have a special name to describe a child who doesn't believe in Santa Clause.    In a way, I do understand some of the push back against those who do openly self label as Atheist, because I have observed that they tend to be more vocal about it.

simonsez

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #336 on: January 04, 2018, 09:31:58 AM »
When people complian about religious references in the public space I wish they would remember that explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.
First, I think you can use a simple modus tollens to prove atheism is not a religious POV (even though Sol's new fave hobby might be more fun).  Religion means belief in one or more deities.  With atheism we do not have belief in one or more deities.  Thus, we do not have religion.

As such, I do not think that explicit atheism is relevant nor was I specifically trying to complain - rather just trying to shed light on how ingrained Christian culture is in a country that is supposed to be founded on religious freedom (including freedom from religion altogether) and explicit separation of church and state.  Further, to act like the ingrained Christian culture is passe or rather secular comes from a place of privilege.  I do not think that is a bad thing per se and is to be expected for much of the country since the vast majority of immigrants have been Christian and have shaped (directly or indirectly) the basis for much of American society.

I'm not advocating for removal of Christian things/systems from the public just trying to express that IT'S THERE and it often gets overlooked because it is often the norm.

me1

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #337 on: January 04, 2018, 09:35:31 AM »
On the other hand, people who are not scientists seem to often want scientists to speak in absolutes - if someone is willing to adjust theories as new information comes along, because they know they do not have all the information and their hypotheses are a reflection of truth, not truth itself, they are not going to want to speak in absolutes.   Is this scientism?  The expectation that scientists already know everything and have everything 100% right?

yes, as I understand it, this is scientism.

zoltani

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #338 on: January 04, 2018, 09:52:14 AM »
clearly stated that I think that the belief that there is no god is a religious point of view.

It's not a "belief" to discard things that are factually disproven.  I do not "believe" that 2+2 does not equal 500.  This is not a matter of faith.

For example, prayer is a lie. It doesn't work.  Every single double blind study every conducted agrees that praying for something, anything, is a feelgood waste of time.  Unless you're praying for a feelgood waste of time.  I don't "believe" that prayer works or doesn't work, because we can test it and know the real answer.  I don't have to know what does work in order know that prayer doesn't work.

There is nothing religious about my knowledge of the efficacy of prayer.  It is not a belief, it is knowledge plainly there for anyone to see.

@sol, If by prayer you only mean humans asking an imaginary magical sky father for favors, then you're right. It doesn't work.

In many ways, though, traditional prayer is similar to meditation and creative visualization, which do work. Many people use mediation along with creative visualization to help themselves achieve goals. If, for example, an athlete or student or employee closes her eyes and over and over again pictures herself achieving some goal, be it winning a race, graduating or getting a promotion or a raise, pretty sure her chances of succeeding increase.

Just because some people call their meditation and visualization exercises "prayer," doesn't mean it can't work. It's not a coincidence that the environment in churches, mosques and temples is similar to what people consciously try to create for themselves when they meditate. When people "pray," just like when they meditate, they calm their minds, focus their concentration and picture the things that they want to come true in their lives, over and over again.

It may be difficult to prove this point in an objective scientific study, but I'm pretty sure it works.

Overall I agree with you. However, if you are picturing/visualizing things that you want to come true in your life you are not meditating. Meditating is about acceptance, detachment and letting go, not holding on.

As people turn away from religion I think that they try and fill their spiritual hole with something. Take a look at crossfit, which resembles a kind of cult. And how about this site right here where people want to attach to something called "mustachianism" with its own prophet and everything. People need something to "believe" in, and if that is not religion it will be something else.

As far as science as a religion goes I think that it is mostly non-scientists that display the same fervor that many religious people do. They will ignore evidence and science when convenient for them. A good example of this is Bill Nye. Another good example is the James Demore memo, which was scientifically accurate but vilified.

I'm about to have a kid and I may consider homeschooling. As schools move more and more towards indoctrinating children with ideologies rather than educating them I question sending my child there. 

zoltani

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #339 on: January 04, 2018, 09:53:50 AM »
When people complian about religious references in the public space I wish they would remember that explicit atheism (the belief that their is no deity) is as much a religious point of view as one of the many forms of theism.
First, I think you can use a simple modus tollens to prove atheism is not a religious POV (even though Sol's new fave hobby might be more fun).  Religion means belief in one or more deities.  With atheism we do not have belief in one or more deities.  Thus, we do not have religion.


I think we are talking about it by this definition:

Religion:
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

gaja

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #340 on: January 04, 2018, 09:57:22 AM »
My husband and I don't have religion, but for a few years my children said they believed in god, angels, and all that stuff. I think they are mostly over it now. We told them they could believe in what they wanted, as long as they didn't confuse science and religion. Unfortunately, in most day to day speach, many of us fall into scientism traps (great term BTW - never heard it before, but very true). For instance; when someone asks whether I believe in global warming, it is much easier to say yes, than to explain that I don't have any religion, but based on current knowledge it seams very likely that human activity is a main factor in the changing climate. It gets especially difficult when the only alternatives in the poll are "yes" or "no".

I've read a lot, including a lot of religious texts. When you connect that to a reluctance to share anything private in face to face settings, a very restrictive attitude to alcohol and swearing, and a tendency to dress conservatorly, you end up with a public image that a lot of people interpret as christian. Why should I bother to explain that they are wrong? Religion has no place in my life, so I have no interest in spending time discussing it with anyone. The only time I've been very clear (and rather unpolite) about the topic, is when I've met people who have tried to convince me I'm wrong, or who have tried to minister to my kids. Based on the Americans I've met, it could very well be that you get more loud atheists in the US because you have more intrusive religious people. But it could be some sort of selective bias, with a higher number of aggressive American christians going on vacation to Europe?
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #341 on: January 04, 2018, 10:08:35 AM »
My husband and I don't have religion, but for a few years my children said they believed in god, angels, and all that stuff. I think they are mostly over it now. We told them they could believe in what they wanted, as long as they didn't confuse science and religion. Unfortunately, in most day to day speach, many of us fall into scientism traps (great term BTW - never heard it before, but very true). For instance; when someone asks whether I believe in global warming, it is much easier to say yes, than to explain that I don't have any religion, but based on current knowledge it seams very likely that human activity is a main factor in the changing climate. It gets especially difficult when the only alternatives in the poll are "yes" or "no".

To me this is what stifles the conversation and action on climate change. You either have to "believe" in it or not. From my point of view the planet is warming, but it would be doing that with or without humans, it is a natural cycle. Anyone that disagrees with this is not looking at the evidence. Now, are humans accelerating this phenomenon? Probably, but who cares. To me the conversation needs to be that the planet is warming, the cause of which can be debated but it doesn't matter. If we want to solve the challenges that climate change will bring, drought, extreme weather, etc, then we need to get over our "beliefs" and start implementing solutions. Both sides treat this topic with the fervor of religious people, it is amusing in a fucked up way.




sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #342 on: January 04, 2018, 10:13:51 AM »
From my point of view the planet is warming, but it would be doing that with or without humans, it is a natural cycle.

Why do you think the planet would be warming without human intervention?

I agree that there is a natural cycle that influences global temperatures, but that cycle is currently in a cooling phase.  The current observed warming, caused by greenhouse gas emissions, has dramatically overprinted that natural cycle.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:41:36 AM by sol »
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zoltani

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #343 on: January 04, 2018, 10:30:09 AM »
Perhaps I should have said "the planet's climate is changing".

I agree with you, due to human activity the rate at which the planet is warming is more rapid than in prehistoric times. Again, this doesn't matter as we need to implement solutions no matter what the cause.

Or maybe none of that will matter and a giant comet will wipe us all out. After all there is evidence that has happened in the past.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #344 on: January 04, 2018, 11:21:22 AM »
Just wanted to reiterate that it seems like America's relationship with Christians/Christianity is hugely different to the UK/European one. Nothing y'all have described about either Christianity or aggressive atheism/scientism is something that I recognise. Maybe everything is just more public in America? I think that by and large in the UK we regard religion as a private matter and it would be enormously rude to comment on anyone's religion or lack thereof unless they brought it up first.
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #345 on: January 04, 2018, 11:27:04 AM »
Just wanted to reiterate that it seems like America's relationship with Christians/Christianity is hugely different to the UK/European one. Nothing y'all have described about either Christianity or aggressive atheism/scientism is something that I recognise. Maybe everything is just more public in America? I think that by and large in the UK we regard religion as a private matter and it would be enormously rude to comment on anyone's religion or lack thereof unless they brought it up first.

I have found this to be very true in time spent outside of the states.

It seems to me, Americans are more assertive/aggressive in general, despite belief system, and therefore Religious/Non-Religious discussions seems more vocal.

In addition to that, pretty much every aspect of American subculture(s) have an extremely vocal minority, while the majority of the subculture's group is rather quiet.  This seems to be true across the whole political spectrum as well as religious and other subcultures.  That "loud" minority gets noticed a lot more than the quiet majority, and usually the "loud" ones are more extreme.

I would really like to understand exactly why this is (or seems to be) compared to other countries (as in where did this vocalism come from...?), but this is pretty far off topic.
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #346 on: January 04, 2018, 12:46:23 PM »
So many thoughts. We are a military family with 3 kids and homeschool 2 of them. We've moved 8 times since my oldest started school--3 times in his high school years.

 

My daughter goes to the local public middle school. She loves it and does very well there, enjoying pre-AP classes and extra curricular activities. She also tells me about the drugs in the bathroom, the never-ending F-bombs on the bus, the weird kid who stands too close and stares at her constantly, and the class where the teacher tells them to read the book and then do the worksheet, every single day. The school is not interested in parent participation--I've tried. Despite the negatives, overall I'm mostly satisfied with her education, though I'm willing to re-evaluate at any time.

 

We homeschool my oldest who just turned 18. He has Asperger's (yes ASD) and school was failing him when we pulled him out in 1st grade. Even with a 1:1 aide, it was a very bad fit. If he had been made to suffer through it he would be a very different person today. He still has his challenges, but after years of therapy and homeschooling, he will be graduating this year with over 50 hours of college credits, and so far has been accepted into 3/5 of his preferred colleges with significant scholarships. We have been gradually preparing him for a college environment with more and more group classes and mandatory activities, though he still sometimes pushes back. If you met him on the street you might say, "oh there's one of those weird homeschoolers." But the truth is that we hs because he's "weird", not the other way around. PS might have ironed out some of his wrinkles a little better, but his actual education would have suffered immeasurably.

 

We also homeschool my youngest son, who is 11. I would consider him your typical kid. He's super smart in some areas and average or even below average in others. He's a kinetic learner and was miserable in kindergarten, which had no regular recess. By December he was in the slow reading group and had stomach aches every morning before school. In the end it was just not the best learning environment for him. We brought him home and he was reading at grade level within the month.

He is exactly the type of kid who would fall through the cracks in school. At home he gets all A's bc we don't move on until he learns something thoroughly. If left to his own devices he would put in the bare minimum and skate through with C's or D's even. He would be labeled dumb even though he just isn't interested. And he would start to think of himself as dumb, like he had already started to in Kindergarten. Instead he knows that he's great with tools and mechanical stuff, and animals, and cooking, and that if he has to he can diagram a sentence and plot the voyages of the early explorers on a map. We are always open to considering ps for him in the future, but I accept that his education will suffer if we do.

We found that homeschooling the early years is really easy. I can get them above grade level in about 3 hours a day up to 4th grade or so. I'm not an "expert," but one on one tutoring at that level just isn't hard. (Except for the patience factor!) Around 6th grade I start outsourcing certain subjects. By high school I'm more of a learning facilitator and overseer. There's not enough time in the week to fit in all the different activities, and groups, and clubs, so we have to pick and choose, but the options here (huge city) are limitless.

All this is to say that I strongly value the freedom to make whatever choices are best for my kids and also appreciate that our current state doesn't interfere with my choices at all.

I just wanted to say that this whole post was lovely.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #347 on: January 04, 2018, 12:51:26 PM »
Most of the Atheists I have met will simply not shut up about how much they don't believe in God. They go on and on about it, even if everyone else is talking about the new season of The X-Files instead. It's like -- let it rest. We get it. Atheists are like those people who are really into Crossfit.
I am going to go out on a limb there and say that it's probably a small % of the atheists that you know.

Only a very few people know that I'm atheist.  I don't go on and on about it.  I rarely talk about it at all (I really don't want people to try and "fix" me).  Luckily, I am an engineer who works with a lot of Asians, so there aren't a lot of people trying to fix me.  Honestly in my entire family, probably only one of my sisters knows (and only because my mother is dead).  I have 8 siblings and a passel of nieces, nephews, in laws, not to mention cousins, aunts and uncles.  Most of whom are very very Catholic or in some cases very Christian. 

I do know a fair # of atheists (due to my job and location) and ... we don't talk about it very much.

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #348 on: January 04, 2018, 12:54:04 PM »
Quote
Many people use mediation along with creative visualization to help themselves achieve goals. If, for example, an athlete or student or employee closes her eyes and over and over again pictures herself achieving some goal, be it winning a race, graduating or getting a promotion or a raise, pretty sure her chances of succeeding increase.

This idea gets a lot of play in pop psych magazines and life coaching brochures but, has it ever been tested in a repeatable, scientific way with a large N sample size? Most of the evidence seems to be ex-post-facto anecdotes from already elite athletes coupled with a few small-N (N<=30) psych studies that have not been replicated. Given that social psychology is currently being staggered by a full blown replication crisis, I'm curious if any of the studies on visualisation have been validated.

The Effects of Visualization and Guided Imagery in Sports Performance

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #349 on: January 04, 2018, 01:33:20 PM »
I do know a fair # of atheists (due to my job and location) and ... we don't talk about it very much.

That kinda makes sense.  There's not much need to get together and talk about God (or the lack of God) if you kinda see the whole thing as kinda silly.  It would be like a bunch of adults getting together to talk about the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy.  After you get past the 'yeah, kinda silly' comments . . . what else is there to say?