Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 23602 times)

FINate

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #250 on: December 29, 2017, 10:05:04 AM »
RE testing and verifying student competency: The State of California (not homeschoolers) has been known to award diplomas to students who cannot demonstrate proficiency in core subjects. More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.

mm1970

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #251 on: December 29, 2017, 11:32:38 AM »
RE testing and verifying student competency: The State of California (not homeschoolers) has been known to award diplomas to students who cannot demonstrate proficiency in core subjects. More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.
I remember the parent-teacher conference I had when my older kid was in 4th grade.  The teacher mentioned that her goal was to bring all students up 2-3 grade levels.  So, my son was 5th grade reader, she wanted him to become 7th grade reader.  Another kid would be 1st grade math, she wanted to bring him up to 4th.

All I could think was, how the fuck does a kid get to 4th grade while doing 1st grade math???


I don't really know what it does to a kid to be "held back", so maybe that's a reason.  And yes, a large % (almost 50%, predominantly K to 3rd) kids in our school are English Learners.  So I'm sure that's a factor too.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #252 on: December 29, 2017, 01:00:16 PM »
My 2 cents from personal experience. Homeschooled children on average are socially awkward. I want my kids to be as good at every aspect of life as possible

How many non-socially awkward homeschoolers do you know?

(Hint: probably a ton, you just have never asked them)...

Humans tend to only notice those that are different.  Unless you always ask your adult friends 'where did you go to high school', you never know that half of them (exaggerating but you get the point) were homeschooled.  Its a selection bias in what you notice.
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wenchsenior

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #253 on: December 29, 2017, 02:37:21 PM »
Overheard in shower room today at the pool,  exchange between two little girls about 8 years old, members of the home-schoolers' swimming team:

Girl 1, singing a song to entertain herself in shower: tra la la

Girl 2 (listening):  That's pretty! I wish I could listen to music!

Girl 1: I'm sorry you can't listen to music, 'cause of the Devil.

Me: :wtf!?:

slappy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #254 on: December 29, 2017, 03:00:19 PM »
My 2 cents from personal experience. Homeschooled children on average are socially awkward. I want my kids to be as good at every aspect of life as possible

How many non-socially awkward homeschoolers do you know?

(Hint: probably a ton, you just have never asked them)...

Humans tend to only notice those that are different.  Unless you always ask your adult friends 'where did you go to high school', you never know that half of them (exaggerating but you get the point) were homeschooled.  Its a selection bias in what you notice.

I know a bunch of socially awkward non-homeschooled people...

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #255 on: December 29, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
I know a bunch of socially awkward non-homeschooled people...

So how many engineers do you know?

(Bu-dunch-shhh)  /s
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slappy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #256 on: December 29, 2017, 03:32:08 PM »
I know a bunch of socially awkward non-homeschooled people...

So how many engineers do you know?

(Bu-dunch-shhh)  /s

Haha. Only the ones that I see posting in this forum.

me1

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #257 on: December 29, 2017, 03:53:49 PM »
The interesting question would be how many homeschooled engineers do you know?

I know none.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #258 on: December 29, 2017, 04:04:35 PM »
The interesting question would be how many homeschooled engineers do you know?

I know none.

Anecdotally, Four.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #259 on: December 29, 2017, 05:08:01 PM »
More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.

Well, that's silly.  If they can't read, give them phonics worksheets and tell 'em it's a diploma.  It's not like they're going to know.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #260 on: December 29, 2017, 05:48:47 PM »
I know a bunch of socially awkward non-homeschooled people...

+1. (Me, for example. Like many on this forum, as others noted.)

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #261 on: December 29, 2017, 10:04:00 PM »
And what evidence does the parent have to show proving the student mastered the knowledge within each class that was graded?  What evidence does the parent show of their own competency to review the student's knowledge?  I know many state colleges that are required to believe the parents, but I know of many private colleges that refuse to have home school students (that did not get an AA first) because of those issues.  I knew quite a few home school students who were in community college during high school because of this (as underage students) because our state gave free community college to high school students. This caused some issues at that level (teenagers with adults does not always work out well).

Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

mxt0133

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #262 on: December 30, 2017, 12:02:15 AM »

....

Anecdote time!!  Just because a kid graduates public or private high school is also no proof that they have mastered the material they studied.  DH (longtime college professor) had a small handful of students each year in his science classes who could not do simple arithmetic.  I'm not talking calculus here. I'm talking questions like "What is 7 percent of 200?"  There was one student in particular that DH worked with very intensively to get his math up to scratch. (My hat is off to that guy. Most in that position dropped out of the class, but he didn't.  He dug in, and made up the ground.  Imagine -- with that drive -- what he could have done if he'd had a good education along the way!). The student honestly had no idea that he didn't know these things. He had gotten average to good grades in math in high school.

How on earth does this happen???  I can only conclude that the schools these kids attended aren't checking to see if the basics have been mastered, or not being honest about testing/grades. 

I don't think homeschool parents have any more incentive than public or private school teachers to inflate grades or "pass" students along.   Probably less.

This is how it is in the bottom 30-50% of public schools.  Think of the system as an assembly line and the students are the products being assembled together.  You can reject only so many, in the case of students hold them back, but you can't hold them all back if they don't pass inspection, don't understand the material, because there is another batch coming right behind them and the assembly line will come to a grinding halt.  If graduation rates drop then the principal and teachers are screwed.  So what does the system do, well they grade on a curve and pass those that have not learned all the required material, hence the review of subjects at the beginning of each year.  This is not just limited to public schools at the elementary level either, this goes all the way up to the college and university level, I know.

I experienced this first hand, I was bored to death in math, but my English was horrible, straight C student on a curve.  I should have been held back but the rest of my grades were good enough and not enough spots to be held back.  Mind you I graduated ranked #34 out of 500 students, so just imagine how ill prepared all the other kids that were ranked lower than I was.

mxt0133

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #263 on: December 30, 2017, 12:14:03 AM »

Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

Go read the "Brainy Bunch"* where the author sent her kids as young as 12 to community college.  I wouldn't have a problem doing so, I actually plan to as community college in my city is free for residents as soon as they are academically capable.  It's not like I'm going to leave them by themselves to party overnight.  They will attend class and group study and that's it.

EDIT:  What is wrong with teenagers going to school with adults?  I mean everyone is so hung up on socialization of homeschoolers so why the double standard when that social interaction has an age difference?  I see it as an advantage, my son who is 6 already has friends that are 9-12 years old.  I started working at 13 and worked with 18-50 year olds.  When I went to college I had adult classmates, hell I got hired by one of them.  When I started my first "professional" job out of college I was working with 60 year olds.

The only odd thing for me is to group people based on age and not capability in an academic setting.  It doesn't happen anywhere else in the real world outside a 'school' setting.




*https://www.amazon.com/Brainy-Bunch-Harding-Familys-College/dp/1476759340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1514617811&sr=8-1&keywords=brainy+bunch
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:35:08 AM by mxt0133 »

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #264 on: December 30, 2017, 05:23:18 AM »
Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

That's our plan too, Shane. Only difference -- since our community college is quite nearby our daughter is planning to do the classes in person rather than on line.

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #265 on: December 30, 2017, 05:35:09 AM »
Overheard in shower room today at the pool,  exchange between two little girls about 8 years old, members of the home-schoolers' swimming team:

Girl 1, singing a song to entertain herself in shower: tra la la

Girl 2 (listening):  That's pretty! I wish I could listen to music!

Girl 1: I'm sorry you can't listen to music, 'cause of the Devil.

Me: :wtf!?:

Ha ha -- I hear you.  I'm a Girl Scout leader in a very diverse area.  Our troop has everything from atheist homeschoolers, to middle-of-the-road public school kids, on over to super fundamentalist Christians who attend religious private school.  It makes for some super trippy conversations among the girls, and parents.     

LaineyAZ

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #266 on: December 30, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »
My concern about young teens attending community college in-person is their vulnerability to social predators.  If they are attending with an older sibling or trusted older friend, that would be okay. 
I also think it would pressure them to "act older" in order to fit in, which could entail anything from dressing like an older teen, to trying smoking cigarettes or MJ, or becoming sexually active earlier than they would otherwise, etc. 
Big difference in emotional maturity and impulse control between ages 13 and 18.   

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #267 on: December 30, 2017, 08:58:47 AM »
Our local community college has a minimum student age of 16.

mr.mongoose

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #268 on: December 30, 2017, 09:01:48 AM »
My concern about young teens attending community college in-person is their vulnerability to social predators.  If they are attending with an older sibling or trusted older friend, that would be okay. 
I also think it would pressure them to "act older" in order to fit in, which could entail anything from dressing like an older teen, to trying smoking cigarettes or MJ, or becoming sexually active earlier than they would otherwise, etc. 
Big difference in emotional maturity and impulse control between ages 13 and 18.

I've been an adjunct professor at community colleges off and on for over 15 years. I've had these kids in classes, by themselves. Trust me, your concern is not relevant. For any given possibility for one social predator to get their hands on one of these kids, there are 25 other responsible adults that will take those same kids under their wing and protect them. The kids have little to no social pressure to act older. In fact, the older students typically like the kids in there to ask the questions they are too embarrassed to ask because they "should have learned it in high school."

BTW, I was also a kid who took classes at the community college between my junior and senior years in high school (I went to public school many moons ago). I had an entire cadre of loving, caring adults that protected me and guided me. Many of them are still good friends.

mr.mongoose

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #269 on: December 30, 2017, 09:19:19 AM »
Just to add a bit of texture to the discussion, please have a look at this video. This and other reasons is why we chose to homeschool our kids. It is approximately 11 minutes long, but has some very important insights from a man who was knighted for his services to education.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #270 on: December 30, 2017, 09:25:54 AM »
A local family I know here in my town homeschooled their children and it was a disaster. The children were very poorly socialized and were three to four years behind their peers developmentally. In addition, they struggled with math because their parents were not very proficient with it.

Eventually, the parents had to give up because the mother needed to go back to work for income and the children were moved into public school. The children were so stressed by the move into a new environment with a rigorous curriculum that they developed serious emotional difficulties. The older child -- a boy -- threatened to commit suicide off a railroad bridge, but luckily a teacher at the school found him and talked him down.

Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of homeschooling.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #271 on: December 30, 2017, 09:46:13 AM »
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of homeschooling.

It sounds more like you're not a fan of multiple variables in this particular family's overall situation (including what their homeschooling looked like, among many other things). That family's experience isn't about/specific to homeschooling. If homeschooling automatically equalled that, I trust homeschooling would indeed be outlawed. This family had a lot more going on than their school path.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #272 on: December 30, 2017, 11:10:16 AM »
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of homeschooling.

It sounds more like you're not a fan of multiple variables in this particular family's overall situation (including what their homeschooling looked like, among many other things). That family's experience isn't about/specific to homeschooling. If homeschooling automatically equalled that, I trust homeschooling would indeed be outlawed. This family had a lot more going on than their school path.

Homeschooling runs the gamut from potentially better than public education (at least better than the average) to far, far worse (socially isolated, unqualified instructors, failing to meet basic curriculum norms, religious indoctrination).  I don't think that anyone is raising concerns regarding the former, but the latter is common enough that most people have run into the damage it leaves in its wake some time in their lives.  Due to this, there is a reasonable case against homeschooling simply because there's no way to ensure that children in it receive a particular quality of education, just as there is a reasonable case to be pro homeschooling due to the potential benefits that can be reaped from it.

It comes down to what you believe is more beneficial for society - a requirement that a mandated standard of education be applied to all, or potential greater risk/reward by allowing homeschooling.  There's no clear 'correct' path.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #273 on: December 30, 2017, 11:39:36 AM »
Homeschooling runs the gamut from potentially better than public education (at least better than the average) to far, far worse (socially isolated, unqualified instructors, failing to meet basic curriculum norms, religious indoctrination).

All schooling options (homeschooling, public brick and mortar, private brick and mortar, etc) face this wide range.

Some brick and mortar schools have a lot of violence (ours was inflicted by teachers as much as by other students), drugs, bullying and other forms of abuse, really shitty "teaching", etc. But we wouldn't want to say "I'm not much of a fan of schooling" just because some of each type of schooling includes these.

...there is a reasonable case against homeschooling simply because there's no way to ensure that children in it receive a particular quality of education...

This is true for all types of school.

(Surely I'm not the only one on this forum that attended brick and mortar schools with major issues.)

It comes down to what you believe is more beneficial for society - a requirement that a mandated standard of education be applied to all, or potential greater risk/reward by allowing homeschooling.  There's no clear 'correct' path.

Agreed.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #274 on: December 30, 2017, 12:20:23 PM »
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of homeschooling.

It sounds more like you're not a fan of multiple variables in this particular family's overall situation (including what their homeschooling looked like, among many other things). That family's experience isn't about/specific to homeschooling. If homeschooling automatically equalled that, I trust homeschooling would indeed be outlawed. This family had a lot more going on than their school path.

Homeschooling runs the gamut from potentially better than public education (at least better than the average) to far, far worse (socially isolated, unqualified instructors, failing to meet basic curriculum norms, religious indoctrination).  I don't think that anyone is raising concerns regarding the former, but the latter is common enough that most people have run into the damage it leaves in its wake some time in their lives.  Due to this, there is a reasonable case against homeschooling simply because there's no way to ensure that children in it receive a particular quality of education, just as there is a reasonable case to be pro homeschooling due to the potential benefits that can be reaped from it.

It comes down to what you believe is more beneficial for society - a requirement that a mandated standard of education be applied to all, or potential greater risk/reward by allowing homeschooling.  There's no clear 'correct' path.

I think it's important to remember that 49.9% of Americans have a below average IQ and these are the majority of people who are choosing to homeschool their kids. Hence the funny scene from "Mean Girls": "On the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so man could fight the dinosaur. And the homosexual." "AMEN!"

I'm sure there are some great intelligent hippie parents who do cool stuff with homeschooling, but they are overwhelmingly exceptional.

mm1970

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #275 on: December 30, 2017, 12:56:53 PM »
The interesting question would be how many homeschooled engineers do you know?

I know none.

Anecdotally, Four.
I don't know any, but that might be because homeschooling wasn't a "thing" when I was a kid.  I do know a few engineers homeschooling their kids though.  Well, their wives are anyway.

PinsAndArrows

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #276 on: December 30, 2017, 01:41:32 PM »
The interesting question would be how many homeschooled engineers do you know?

I know none.

Anecdotally, Four.
I don't know any, but that might be because homeschooling wasn't a "thing" when I was a kid.  I do know a few engineers homeschooling their kids though.  Well, their wives are anyway.

I was actually homeschooled K-12, and am now a software engineer.

Pros:
- Able to schedule family vacations in off season times (cheaper and fewer people around).
- Large focus on books (I hauled home a full bookbag every week from the library).
- A grudging nod towards facts...Other than the "evilution" shaped hole in my science education, I got mostly well rounded education.
- Pervasive bullshit about conservatism and KJV Bible worship led to me being deeply suspicious of authority and becoming a more logical thinker.
- I now amaze coworkers with my cursive handwriting.

Cons:
- Family drama was the main focus of my childhood, not education.
- Had to build my personality, hobbies, and friendships from scratch after I started working since friends were difficult to make or keep with my family's wacky religious standards.
- Creationist bullshit peddled as facts.
- Nightly viewing of the The O'Reilly Factor was a mandatory part of my civics education.
- Countless hours wasted on mandatory Bible verse memorization and Bible classes.

If you want a deep look into the Religious Right in America, there's a very left leaning chapter by chapter review of the slant and outright lies in my high school history textbook: https://wonkette.com/tag/a-beka-book).  Whether you lean left or right, I think everyone can see some measure of, "Wow, that's pretty far out there."

I'd only ever consider homeschooling my child if I literally had no other choice at all.  Yes, that is tainted by my experiences with homeschooling.  No, I'm not saying all homeschoolers are attempting to stifle their children for religious purposes, or that it's impossible to socialize homeschoolers properly.  But I do think that it takes extra special effort on the parent's part, and the humbleness to continually evaluate whether or not whatever you are doing is meeting your child's needs.

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #277 on: December 30, 2017, 02:12:26 PM »
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of homeschooling.

It sounds more like you're not a fan of multiple variables in this particular family's overall situation (including what their homeschooling looked like, among many other things). That family's experience isn't about/specific to homeschooling. If homeschooling automatically equalled that, I trust homeschooling would indeed be outlawed. This family had a lot more going on than their school path.

Homeschooling runs the gamut from potentially better than public education (at least better than the average) to far, far worse (socially isolated, unqualified instructors, failing to meet basic curriculum norms, religious indoctrination).  I don't think that anyone is raising concerns regarding the former, but the latter is common enough that most people have run into the damage it leaves in its wake some time in their lives.  Due to this, there is a reasonable case against homeschooling simply because there's no way to ensure that children in it receive a particular quality of education, just as there is a reasonable case to be pro homeschooling due to the potential benefits that can be reaped from it.

It comes down to what you believe is more beneficial for society - a requirement that a mandated standard of education be applied to all, or potential greater risk/reward by allowing homeschooling.  There's no clear 'correct' path.

I think it's important to remember that 49.9% of Americans have a below average IQ and these are the majority of people who are choosing to homeschool their kids. Hence the funny scene from "Mean Girls": "On the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so man could fight the dinosaur. And the homosexual." "AMEN!"

I'm sure there are some great intelligent hippie parents who do cool stuff with homeschooling, but they are overwhelmingly exceptional.

I think the current reality of homeschooling is way more nuanced than this . . . I can't speak for what it's like in the 'buckle of the Bible belt', but around here, it's not easy to say what a typical homeschooling family is. I don't think there is a sharp line between religious and 'hippie' homeschooling, and in any event there are loads of families that wouldn't fit into either category.  It's not binary (religious/secular);  there are many different types of families and many different reasons for doing it.   And whoa partner -- careful with the generalization than it's mostly low-IQ parents that are choosing to homeschool. What is that?  Sounds like you need to get out and meet more homeschooling families instead of reading about some sad cases, then deciding that is the norm. 

Personally, I don't think the number of kids who are totally failed by homeschooling is any greater than the number of kids totally failed by the public schools.  To use GuitarStv's language, I don't think the risk of homeschooling is any greater than public schooling, but I think the potential upside is greater.  Grateful that we have the freedom to choose.



Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #278 on: December 30, 2017, 02:17:23 PM »

Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

Go read the "Brainy Bunch"* where the author sent her kids as young as 12 to community college.  I wouldn't have a problem doing so, I actually plan to as community college in my city is free for residents as soon as they are academically capable.  It's not like I'm going to leave them by themselves to party overnight.  They will attend class and group study and that's it.

EDIT:  What is wrong with teenagers going to school with adults?  I mean everyone is so hung up on socialization of homeschoolers so why the double standard when that social interaction has an age difference?  I see it as an advantage, my son who is 6 already has friends that are 9-12 years old.  I started working at 13 and worked with 18-50 year olds.  When I went to college I had adult classmates, hell I got hired by one of them.  When I started my first "professional" job out of college I was working with 60 year olds.

The only odd thing for me is to group people based on age and not capability in an academic setting.  It doesn't happen anywhere else in the real world outside a 'school' setting.




*https://www.amazon.com/Brainy-Bunch-Harding-Familys-College/dp/1476759340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1514617811&sr=8-1&keywords=brainy+bunch

@mxt0133, Thanks for the book recommendation. I requested the Kindle version through our local library.

Agreed, there doesn't necessarily have to be any problems associated with sending kids to community college. If we are living physically close to a CC when our daughter is ready to start taking classes, we'll definitely consider that as an option. In the event that we are still traveling/living outside of the US, it seems nice for her to have the option of taking some or all classes online, at least to start out with.

Maybe @Gin1984 could clarify what she meant by her statement above that there are sometimes issues with sending kids to school with adults?

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #279 on: December 30, 2017, 03:11:37 PM »
Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

That's our plan too, Shane. Only difference -- since our community college is quite nearby our daughter is planning to do the classes in person rather than on line.

If we're living in the US in a place where taking classes in person at a CC is an option for our daughter, we'll definitely consider it as well.

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #280 on: December 30, 2017, 04:13:15 PM »
A really good alternative education related book I read recently was Free to Learn by developmental psychologist Peter Gray. Gray claims the most important way children learn is through play and not from sitting in rows in classrooms, following a curriculum and memorizing facts only to regurgitate them on a test.

In the book, Gray talks a lot about the Sudbury Valley School in Framingham, Massachusetts, which his son attended. The SVS exists in a totally different education paradigm from most conventional schools. At the SVS there are no regularly scheduled classes. Students choose freely what they want to do every day. If one or a group of students asks a teacher to help them learn something, the teacher may set up an impromptu "class" to teach them coding or art or woodworking or 3D printing or whatever, but as soon as the students indicate they have learned enough, the "class" ends. There are no tests. Everything at the school is done democratically. Students, teachers and administrators vote on all school rules, hiring and firing of all faculty and staff, and everything else to do with the operation of the school. One person = one vote. Which means students vastly outnumber teachers and administrators and therefore have more say in what goes on in the school than do the adults. All teachers and administrators work on one year contracts, and everyone votes, every year, whether or not to extend their contracts...

The original Sudbury Valley School, which was founded in 1968, is in Framingham, MA, but there are many so called "Sudbury model" schools or "democratic" schools all over the country and world. If we end up living in a place with easy access to a Sudbury model school, we'll definitely consider enrolling our daughter for a year or two or maybe more, as it seems like it would be a great experience for her.

 

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #281 on: December 30, 2017, 04:30:23 PM »
I think it's important to remember that 49.9% of Americans have a below average IQ and these are the majority of people who are choosing to homeschool their kids. Hence the funny scene from "Mean Girls": "On the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so man could fight the dinosaur. And the homosexual." "AMEN!"

I'm sure there are some great intelligent hippie parents who do cool stuff with homeschooling, but they are overwhelmingly exceptional.

I can only trust your words are true to the region you're living in. They're not correct across the board.

Definitely meet more homeschool families! In my region, I've met zero meeting your first description, plenty meeting your latter one, and countless other sorts (intelligent nonhippies, etc).

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #282 on: December 30, 2017, 06:00:26 PM »

Our daughter's only nine, so we've still got a few years, but when she's ready, maybe starting when she's fourteen or fifteen, we're hoping to help her sign up for online community college courses. Doing the classes online should, hopefully, eliminate any worries regarding teenagers going to school with adults. We're hoping our daughter will be able to get an AA by the time she's eighteen. Then she can start university as a junior and graduate with a B.A. or B.S. by the time she's twenty years old. If she takes four years to get her AA online, say from age fourteen to eighteen, she should have plenty of time to work at a job, at least part time, while she's going to school. Rather than going to high school for socialization, I'd rather see my daughter get paid to learn to get along and work well with others. That way, at the same time she's going to school, she can also be learning important life skills like how to balance her checkbook, opening and fully funding a Roth IRA and 401k if her employer offers one.

Go read the "Brainy Bunch"* where the author sent her kids as young as 12 to community college.  I wouldn't have a problem doing so, I actually plan to as community college in my city is free for residents as soon as they are academically capable.  It's not like I'm going to leave them by themselves to party overnight.  They will attend class and group study and that's it.

EDIT:  What is wrong with teenagers going to school with adults?  I mean everyone is so hung up on socialization of homeschoolers so why the double standard when that social interaction has an age difference?  I see it as an advantage, my son who is 6 already has friends that are 9-12 years old.  I started working at 13 and worked with 18-50 year olds.  When I went to college I had adult classmates, hell I got hired by one of them.  When I started my first "professional" job out of college I was working with 60 year olds.

The only odd thing for me is to group people based on age and not capability in an academic setting.  It doesn't happen anywhere else in the real world outside a 'school' setting.




*https://www.amazon.com/Brainy-Bunch-Harding-Familys-College/dp/1476759340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1514617811&sr=8-1&keywords=brainy+bunch

@mxt0133, Thanks for the book recommendation. I requested the Kindle version through our local library.

Agreed, there doesn't necessarily have to be any problems associated with sending kids to community college. If we are living physically close to a CC when our daughter is ready to start taking classes, we'll definitely consider that as an option. In the event that we are still traveling/living outside of the US, it seems nice for her to have the option of taking some or all classes online, at least to start out with.

Maybe @Gin1984 could clarify what she meant by her statement above that there are sometimes issues with sending kids to school with adults?
Sure, there were issues where discussions were more adult and seemed to make the kids uncomfortable (which seemed to limit the discussion), as well as a more limited knowledge base when in peer discussions, group projects which were limited on times for meetings (most of the adults worked as well) so the professor tried to match the homeschooling students together instead of adults for out of class work and third was an issue in some of the lab classes, where the professor had to be in loco parentis for some legal reason I am not aware of (my mom had to sign paperwork when I was 17 in two classes).
I did notice some of the high school kids trying to appear more adult but that did not happen with most because the majority had parents who picked them up and dropped them off for each class.  The ones who had multiple classes were more likely (and were more likely to cut a middle class because of lack of supervision).
ETA:  I was only aware of a couple times where young adult men seemed to target the homeschool girls.  Sadly IME not often did anyone intervene.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 06:02:12 PM by Gin1984 »

Shane

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #283 on: December 30, 2017, 10:37:57 PM »
My concern about young teens attending community college in-person is their vulnerability to social predators.  If they are attending with an older sibling or trusted older friend, that would be okay. 
I also think it would pressure them to "act older" in order to fit in, which could entail anything from dressing like an older teen, to trying smoking cigarettes or MJ, or becoming sexually active earlier than they would otherwise, etc. 
Big difference in emotional maturity and impulse control between ages 13 and 18.

I've been an adjunct professor at community colleges off and on for over 15 years. I've had these kids in classes, by themselves. Trust me, your concern is not relevant. For any given possibility for one social predator to get their hands on one of these kids, there are 25 other responsible adults that will take those same kids under their wing and protect them. The kids have little to no social pressure to act older. In fact, the older students typically like the kids in there to ask the questions they are too embarrassed to ask because they "should have learned it in high school."

BTW, I was also a kid who took classes at the community college between my junior and senior years in high school (I went to public school many moons ago). I had an entire cadre of loving, caring adults that protected me and guided me. Many of them are still good friends.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's good to know homeschool kids are safe at some CCs.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #284 on: December 31, 2017, 07:51:26 PM »
Homeschooling runs the gamut from potentially better than public education (at least better than the average) to far, far worse (socially isolated, unqualified instructors, failing to meet basic curriculum norms, religious indoctrination).

All schooling options (homeschooling, public brick and mortar, private brick and mortar, etc) face this wide range.

Some brick and mortar schools have a lot of violence (ours was inflicted by teachers as much as by other students), drugs, bullying and other forms of abuse, really shitty "teaching", etc. But we wouldn't want to say "I'm not much of a fan of schooling" just because some of each type of schooling includes these.

...there is a reasonable case against homeschooling simply because there's no way to ensure that children in it receive a particular quality of education...

This is true for all types of school.

(Surely I'm not the only one on this forum that attended brick and mortar schools with major issues.)

I think you're overlooking the differences between a public school and homeschooling here.

There are educational requirements for public school teachers, and they have to meet a minimum proficiency level to be hired.  No such requirements exist for parents homeschooling.  There exist checks and balances in the public education system to prevent and reduce instances of poor education.  None exist for homeschooled students.

Please don't get me wrong, I completely agree that there are some crappy public schools.  The system's far from perfect, the teachers and principals in it are far from perfect.  The worst case for home schooling is an awful lot worse than for public education though, that is the point I was trying to make.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #285 on: December 31, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »
I am highly suspicious that homeschooling is one of the main causes of the anti-fluoridation movement. People think they don't need an expert education and then they end up thinking that water fluoridation with sodium fluoride is harmful because fluorine gas can be dangerous and corrosive. That is kind of like saying that water is harmful, because it contains hydrogen, which is used in thermonuclear weapons.

sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #286 on: December 31, 2017, 08:07:11 PM »
I am highly suspicious that homeschooling is one of the main causes of the anti-fluoridation movement. People think they don't need an expert education and then they end up thinking that water fluoridation with sodium fluoride is harmful because fluorine gas can be dangerous and corrosive. That is kind of like saying that water is harmful, because it contains hydrogen, which is used in thermonuclear weapons.

How do you feel about the anti-GMO (food) movement?  Because from my perspective as a professional scientists, the anti-GMO people and the anti-fluoridation people and the anti-public-school people have uncomfortable amounts of overlap.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #287 on: December 31, 2017, 08:17:48 PM »
I am highly suspicious that homeschooling is one of the main causes of the anti-fluoridation movement. People think they don't need an expert education and then they end up thinking that water fluoridation with sodium fluoride is harmful because fluorine gas can be dangerous and corrosive. That is kind of like saying that water is harmful, because it contains hydrogen, which is used in thermonuclear weapons.

How do you feel about the anti-GMO (food) movement?  Because from my perspective as a professional scientists, the anti-GMO people and the anti-fluoridation people and the anti-public-school people have uncomfortable amounts of overlap.

The Anti-GMO stuff is crazy to me too. Just look at what we've already done to genetically modify stuff. Broccoli, Cauliflower, Brussels Sprouts, Cabbage, Collard Greens, Kale, and Kohlrabi are all the same plant. The difference today is that now we can manipulate the genetic code, which is composed of DNA made of naturally occurring substances. It's completely natural to do these things and genetic engineering has done wonders to reduce world hunger.

People don't seem to understand chemistry anymore. Absolutely everything in the world except for energy is composed of chemicals. Chemicals are not scary things. We don't need to be afraid of knowledge and we should stop treating science like it's a form of magic.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #288 on: December 31, 2017, 10:37:22 PM »
There exist checks and balances in the public education system to prevent and reduce instances of poor education.

Like most services in my area, those exist on paper but prove to have little presence or effect in reality. i.e., The poor education in brick and mortar schools exists despite systems of proposed checks and balances. Kids are passed anyway. Kids are left to their own devices anyway. Kids graduate illiterate anyway.

I don't have reason to believe a higher percentage of kids in B&M schools are succeeding than kids in HS are. Some fall through the cracks of each.

The worst case for home schooling is an awful lot worse than for public education though, that is the point I was trying to make.

I agree 100% that if a child is imprisoned, secluded, or otherwise abused via the use of intentional isolation from people or education, the worst case possibilities are beyond horrific. We have laws to prevent those (abuse laws vs educational laws).

I just differentiate homeschooling -a scenario in which a child is usually interacting with a great number of people who can observe matters and are obligated to report- from those. To homeschool is not to imprison, seclude, or deny education to. It's important to separate these and talk about them as distinct matters.

Villanelle

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #289 on: January 01, 2018, 08:08:55 AM »
My 2 cents from personal experience. Homeschooled children on average are socially awkward. I want my kids to be as good at every aspect of life as possible

How many non-socially awkward homeschoolers do you know?

(Hint: probably a ton, you just have never asked them)...

Humans tend to only notice those that are different.  Unless you always ask your adult friends 'where did you go to high school', you never know that half of them (exaggerating but you get the point) were homeschooled.  Its a selection bias in what you notice.

This has been said several times in this thread.  Again, I am surrounded by homeschool kids (and public school kids).  As a very rough guess, probably 20% of the kids around me are homeschooled.  And it's far, far more than me just thinking "awkward kid" and asking and finding out that yes, they are HSed.  I can (and have) been in a room with 30+ kids, and I personally know which ones are HS and which aren't.  And yes, the truly odd, awkward ones who don't seem to grasp the basic expectations of the American social contract (beyond the truly young ones) are almost exclusively homeschooled.  I'm sorry if that's an uncomfortable truth.  And I fully expect this to be explained away, or for someone else to suggest again that this is some sort of selection bias on my part, but it's not.  As I said, I don't really have anything against HSing, and I think it absolutely can be done in ways that are both socially and academically successful.  I just think that most of the time, it isn't. 

I get that this makes people defensive, especially those who homeschool or were homeschooled.  But it's not as though I'm saying there are no of even few exceptions.  If people are truly taking care of the social and academic parts, and being conscientious about both and finding what works for their children, that's truly wonderful, and those are some very fortunate children.  To dismiss these concerns as people just confirming their own biases actually suggests to me that when coming from a HSer, they are probably less likely to be conscientious about that because they aren't willing to accept that unless they proceed very thoughtfully, this is a downfall of the system they've chosen.  Is it really to hard to say, "yes, unfortunately, plenty of Hers suffer socially, and that can be a problem with the system because there is less forced interaction, less diverse interaction, etc.  And that's why I've gone out of my way to create social opportunities for my kids, and ones that allow for interaction with both lots of people and with some of the same non-family people for a sustained period, so that they have the opportunity to develop socially, too.  It can be in a problem with HSing, but since I accept that and am aware of it, I'm able to compensate for it."

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #290 on: January 01, 2018, 08:10:18 AM »
There exist checks and balances in the public education system to prevent and reduce instances of poor education.

Like most services in my area, those exist on paper but prove to have little presence or effect in reality. i.e., The poor education in brick and mortar schools exists despite systems of proposed checks and balances. Kids are passed anyway. Kids are left to their own devices anyway. Kids graduate illiterate anyway.

I don't have reason to believe a higher percentage of kids in B&M schools are succeeding than kids in HS are. Some fall through the cracks of each.

The worst case for home schooling is an awful lot worse than for public education though, that is the point I was trying to make.

I agree 100% that if a child is imprisoned, secluded, or otherwise abused via the use of intentional isolation from people or education, the worst case possibilities are beyond horrific. We have laws to prevent those (abuse laws vs educational laws).

I just differentiate homeschooling -a scenario in which a child is usually interacting with a great number of people who can observe matters and are obligated to report- from those. To homeschool is not to imprison, seclude, or deny education to. It's important to separate these and talk about them as distinct matters.

Your scenario (great interaction, lots of people involved in education, many knowledgeable instructors) is certainly a possible one when homeschooling.  Generally, I'd say that this sounds like a pretty good way to educate a kid.  However, you are ignoring the fact that it's perfectly legal to homeschool by secluding a child, surrounding the child with few completely unqualified instructors, and deny real education.  That's the other side of the double edged sword that is legalized homeschooling.

I support the right of parents to educate their child in the way that they feel is best . . . But I do so without putting blinders on to the risks and damage that this approach will cause to some children.  Checks and balances that exist on paper provide more safety than a total lack of checks and balances.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 08:12:16 AM by GuitarStv »

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #291 on: January 01, 2018, 10:08:24 AM »
I can (and have) been in a room with 30+ kids, and I personally know which ones are HS and which aren't.  And yes, the truly odd, awkward ones who don't seem to grasp the basic expectations of the American social contract (beyond the truly young ones) are almost exclusively homeschooled.  I'm sorry if that's an uncomfortable truth.  And I fully expect this to be explained away, or for someone else to suggest again that this is some sort of selection bias on my part, but it's not.

I explained it not only by saying awkwardness exists in both environments (and it does), but by saying some of our kids are diagnosed with neurological differences that result in social awkwardness, and we have had to pull our kids out of systems that destroy them.

In other words, for many HS families, the [reasons behind] the awkwardness causes the homeschooling. The homeschooling didn't create the awkwardness. My child's disability can't be cured by sitting in classrooms, so I put him in an environment (which also cannot cure it but) that allows him to thrive regardless (a thing B&M school could not do).

I get that this makes people defensive, especially those who homeschool or were homeschooled.

I don't feel defensive about social awkwardness (because I don't think it's embarrassing, etc).

I just don't like to see inaccuracies, the equivalent of red herrings, or myths. I'm passionate about accuracy, and I think this common myth re: homeschooling is an important one to address. Homeschooling doesn't cause social awkwardness. Some neurological differences do, some emotional issues do, and some cases of abuse do, but homeschooling doesn't.

...that can be a problem with the system because there is less forced interaction, less diverse interaction, etc.  And that's why I've gone out of my way to create social opportunities for my kids, and ones that allow for interaction with both lots of people and with some of the same non-family people for a sustained period, so that they have the opportunity to develop socially, too.  It can be in a problem with HSing, but since I accept that and am aware of it, I'm able to compensate for it."

But there isn't less diverse interaction. We (me, the HSers I know) don't go out of our way to create opportunities [above]. They exist naturally. In our experiences, HS is naturally engaged, interactive, etc. We're out in the world. Maybe it's the word "homeschool" that's throwing people? The kids are "out in the world learning." The kids in my HS community (four cities to date) naturally hang with 30-200 people in any given week. That's just a natural outcome of our way of being in the world, not a result of tripping over ourselves to compensate for a system of isolation.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #292 on: January 01, 2018, 10:14:25 AM »
However, you are ignoring the fact that it's perfectly legal to homeschool by secluding a child, surrounding the child with few completely unqualified instructors, and deny real education. [...] Checks and balances that exist on paper provide more safety than a total lack of checks and balances.

I'm not ignoring this fact so much as I'm saying it's covered by abuse laws. If I were concerned about abuse, I would rely on abuse laws. If it's legal to abuse children in a given region, I would work to resolve the (lack of) abuse laws, not demand children go to B&M schools.

I agree that even a check/balance applied once in a blue moon is better than one applied never. Despite hanging with several hundred HS families -including some I consider even far weirder than ours- I haven't yet seen one that isn't engaged with an effective checks and balance system. I would 100% support that everywhere.

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #293 on: January 01, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »
I agree 100% with Jooniflorispoo.  It's so important to carefully separate the issues being discussed here, and challenge your own assumptions about cause and effect.

We have a kid who is different than other kids, and our local public school was unable to give him anything close to what he needed.  He was being crushed there, disappearing before our eyes.  We started homeschooling, and now he is thriving.  If you had met him a couple years ago, and noticed he was different, this was not caused by homeschooling.  It was the reason behind it.

And -- speaking for us -- the homeschooling communities we've been in (two different states so far) have been more diverse than the public schools we were in.   

PizzaSteve

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #294 on: January 01, 2018, 10:57:14 AM »
More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.

Well, that's silly.  If they can't read, give them phonics worksheets and tell 'em it's a diploma.  It's not like they're going to know.
PTF (great thread).

FYI there are 6.3 million students in California public schools.  Think a reporter can find a few problem situations?  Question GuitarStv, how many public school children have you taught?

PS, both wife and I are 100% CA public school taught Ivy League School Grads with advanced professional degrees.  We also happen to have multiple siblings and family members teaching in CA public schools  (while both of us are retired early, FI, ..our siblings are still working and teaching).  Your flippant comments are not respectful to the decades of work our families have made to public education in our great state.  Please respect their work and decades of personal sacrifices (including spending personal funds for student benefit) and in many cases possibly being the key influence in a bad home that changed a life from certain poverty to becoming a productive citizen.   I literally had a store manager at Staples on reading my name on a form tell me my sister saved her life, with a tear in her eye.

This is not meant to criticize your otherwise thoughtful posts, but perhaps to ask you to pause and think a bit when you make flippant comments about eubonics.  Have you dealt with urban black youth in large California cities, where that approach might actually help them build some self esteem about how they were taught to communicate as children?   
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 11:03:40 AM by PizzaSteve »
All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

GuitarStv

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #295 on: January 01, 2018, 11:30:48 AM »
However, you are ignoring the fact that it's perfectly legal to homeschool by secluding a child, surrounding the child with few completely unqualified instructors, and deny real education.

I'm not ignoring this fact so much as I'm saying it's covered by abuse laws. If I were concerned about abuse, I would rely on abuse laws. If it's legal to abuse children in a given region, I would work to resolve the (lack of) abuse laws, not demand children go to B&M schools.

It is my understanding that none of the above are covered by abuse laws.  If I'm wrong, can you provide the abuse law number and subsections that you're talking about that cover what I was mentioning.  Specifically:
- A homeschooled child must be educated by competent people (degree in education for primary grades, post secondary degree demonstrating knowledge in secondary education).
- A homeschooled child must be socialized with a wide number and variety of different people.
- A homeschooled child must receive a certain minimum standard of education equivalent to that offered by the public school system.

I also don't think that what you suggested (attempting to regulate homeschooling through child abuse law legislation) makes any sense.  They should be regulated through the educational legislation that each state implements.



More recently, instances of graduates who cannot read their own diplomas.

Well, that's silly.  If they can't read, give them phonics worksheets and tell 'em it's a diploma.  It's not like they're going to know.
PTF (great thread).

FYI there are 6.3 million students in California public schools.  Think a reporter can find a few problem situations?  Question GuitarStv, how many public school children have you taught?

PS, both wife and I are 100% CA public school taught Ivy League School Grads with advanced professional degrees.  We also happen to have multiple siblings and family members teaching in CA public schools  (while both of us are retired early, FI, ..our siblings are still working and teaching).  Your flippant comments are not respectful to the decades of work our families have made to public education in our great state.  Please respect their work and decades of personal sacrifices (including spending personal funds for student benefit) and in many cases possibly being the key influence in a bad home that changed a life from certain poverty to becoming a productive citizen.   I literally had a store manager at Staples on reading my name on a form tell me my sister saved her life, with a tear in her eye.

About three hundred children give or take during the period I spent teaching Taekwondo.  (Obviously this isn't comparable to what educators in a structured class do.)

My father taught special education, biology, and computer science during the 25 years he spent as an educator in Ontario's secondary school system.  My mom taught primary grades 2-4 for 30 years.  My step-mom spent 30 years teaching secondary school art, history, and later in her career became a consultant to help teachers develop more effective lesson plans.  I greatly respect teachers and all the hard work that they do (especially after years of observing just how much stuff goes on behind the scenes to make education work).  It's vitally important, and it doesn't get much credit.

I've always been against the idea of handing out a diploma to someone who hasn't earned it.  While the comment that I made was flippant, it is ridiculous to have a single high school graduate who is illiterate.  That's indication of a pretty huge failure of the system.  Pointing this out does nothing to disrespect the tremendous amount of good work that educators do.  The system that exists is very good, but sometimes people fall through the cracks.  Pretending that there's no problem does a disservice to everyone.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #296 on: January 01, 2018, 11:59:56 AM »
It is my understanding that none of the above are covered by abuse laws.  If I'm wrong, can you provide the abuse law number and subsections that you're talking about that cover what I was mentioning.  Specifically:
- A homeschooled child must be educated by competent people (degree in education for primary grades, post secondary degree demonstrating knowledge in secondary education).

I don't view facilitation of learning by a nondegreed person as abuse. Several governments don't seem to either. (It seems some people might. I accept that some people might; I just disagree with that.)

- A homeschooled child must be socialized with a wide number and variety of different people.
- A homeschooled child must receive a certain minimum standard of education equivalent to that offered by the public school system.

Every region (country, etc) has its own laws. [Without spending endless hours cutting and pasting] I can't quote each law for each area.

But I can say that many regions have laws regarding a child's right to education, laws re: truancy, laws re: a minor child working during school hours or working more than x number of hours during school weeks, and laws against emotional abuse and neglect, which includes isolation. If a region lacks these laws, I would concern myself with getting these laws into place, in order to address concerns of child abuse (regardless of where the child is schooling/unschooling).

A warm, happy family of six living on their farm, homeschooling, socializing in their community four days out of each week, feeding the animals morning and night, with the kids heading out to Cadets every Tuesday night and swim meets every weekend isn't inherently abusive, including neglectful, so abuse laws that exist don't apply and we needn't be concerned.

If the crux of your concern is that facilitation of learning by nondegreed people is abuse, that could be an interesting conversation.

I also don't think that what you suggested (attempting to regulate homeschooling through child abuse law legislation) makes any sense.

I didn't suggest that. I suggested that abuse be addressed through abuse laws. This is in response to posts referring to abuse rather than to a homeschooling issue. In some cases, people are inappropriately conflating these, but they need to be addressed as the distinct topics they are.

Mustachio Bashio

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #297 on: January 01, 2018, 12:43:53 PM »
Personally, I was homeschooled for 7th and 8th grade.  My mom had been a teacher before having me and my bro, and she has a Masters in Elementary Education.  I had been going to a "blue ribbon school" in a county with some of the top schools in the country, but sixth grade was ridiculous with terrible teachers, terrible group projects, and all around just not an optimal learning environment.  We checked out a bunch of private schools in our area, but none really fit for me.  My friend was dealing with the same situation, and her mom and my mom were friends, so we decided to do it together.  We got coursework we'd have to turn in regularly, and we always planned on going back to school for high school, but homeschooling really gave me a lot of advantages.  I was able to do so many more activities (piano twice a week, swim team, dance class almost daily, etc), plus we could go on field trips to see the places we were learning about (I'm from DC).  I was always strong in math, but my English had struggled, and by the time I was back in public school I had caught up and was in the honors classes.  We did go to a homeschooled science class once, but decided to never go again, cause it was filled with all of the stereotypical homeschoolers you tend to think of with all of the social awkwardness.  I think my circumstances made homeschooling a great option, and I grew a ton during those years, but I wouldn't have done it going into high school.  Also, my brother had the option to do it as well, but preferred to stay in school, so that's what he did.  I guess it's just not one size fits all.

Villanelle

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #298 on: January 01, 2018, 07:51:40 PM »
I can (and have) been in a room with 30+ kids, and I personally know which ones are HS and which aren't.  And yes, the truly odd, awkward ones who don't seem to grasp the basic expectations of the American social contract (beyond the truly young ones) are almost exclusively homeschooled.  I'm sorry if that's an uncomfortable truth.  And I fully expect this to be explained away, or for someone else to suggest again that this is some sort of selection bias on my part, but it's not.

I explained it not only by saying awkwardness exists in both environments (and it does), but by saying some of our kids are diagnosed with neurological differences that result in social awkwardness, and we have had to pull our kids out of systems that destroy them.

In other words, for many HS families, the [reasons behind] the awkwardness causes the homeschooling. The homeschooling didn't create the awkwardness. My child's disability can't be cured by sitting in classrooms, so I put him in an environment (which also cannot cure it but) that allows him to thrive regardless (a thing B&M school could not do).

I get that this makes people defensive, especially those who homeschool or were homeschooled.

I don't feel defensive about social awkwardness (because I don't think it's embarrassing, etc).

I just don't like to see inaccuracies, the equivalent of red herrings, or myths. I'm passionate about accuracy, and I think this common myth re: homeschooling is an important one to address. Homeschooling doesn't cause social awkwardness. Some neurological differences do, some emotional issues do, and some cases of abuse do, but homeschooling doesn't.

...that can be a problem with the system because there is less forced interaction, less diverse interaction, etc.  And that's why I've gone out of my way to create social opportunities for my kids, and ones that allow for interaction with both lots of people and with some of the same non-family people for a sustained period, so that they have the opportunity to develop socially, too.  It can be in a problem with HSing, but since I accept that and am aware of it, I'm able to compensate for it."

But there isn't less diverse interaction. We (me, the HSers I know) don't go out of our way to create opportunities [above]. They exist naturally. In our experiences, HS is naturally engaged, interactive, etc. We're out in the world. Maybe it's the word "homeschool" that's throwing people? The kids are "out in the world learning." The kids in my HS community (four cities to date) naturally hang with 30-200 people in any given week. That's just a natural outcome of our way of being in the world, not a result of tripping over ourselves to compensate for a system of isolation.

for YOUR KIDS, there isn't less diverse interaction.  Again, I've fully acknowledged that there are many exceptions.  But being "out in the world learning" doesn't mean the are necessarily learning those social skills.  Going to a museum or a park or getting a tour of the post office are not really the same as interacting day in and day out.  It's the "naturally hang[ing] with 30-200 people" that probably does, but even then it matters what that hanging actually means.  Most of the HS families I know go on outings, but handing your museum ticket to a ticket taker doesn't constitute much social interaction.  They largely talk within the family group--siblings and parents.

Also, I differentiate between social awkward and not understanding some basic social expectations.  I'm incredibly socially awkward, made worse my my sometimes crippling social anxiety.  That's not the same as not really understanding how I'm supposed to interact.  I'd give examples, but that starts to wade into some privacy issues--I don't feel comfortable calling out specific behaviors of kids.  But we are talking about things that make adults and other kids extremely and visibly uncomfortable.  Everyone looking at each other like, "what the heck is happening, and how am I supposed to deal with this?" These are kids not diagnosed with anything relevant (and no, this is not an assumption).  Could there be spectrum or other issues at play?  Possibly, but the parents see no issues so aren't seeking anything (another possible issue with HSing, because there is no teacher or administration to bring up these possibilities to a parent not interested in seeing them).  So whether they are dealing with any kinds of specific concerns or not, they simply aren't learning how to move in the world in ways that are expected of them.  Cultivating originality is wonderful, as is teaching kids to resist pressures to conform.  But there's a point at which it becomes a disservice.

Again, I've known some wonderful HS kids and families.  Again, I think there are ways to do it extremely well and those kids are very fortunate.  They are probably some of the very best educational outcomes. But I'm not going to close my eyes to the very real issues that do exist in the homeschool community.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #299 on: January 01, 2018, 08:27:00 PM »
...handing your museum ticket to a ticket taker doesn't constitute much social interaction.

I agree. I don't know any HS communities that are largely limited to this + their families.

I'm very curious about these isolated, distressed, unfortunate situations some of you are running into. It's such a very different one than any I've run into, from a very involved position with hundreds of families. We're not the exception in any environment we've been in -we're the norm. Is there something extra weird in certain locations? Are these locations exceptionally absent in opportunities? Is the local culture one in which people shy away from each other?

...they simply aren't learning how to move in the world in ways that are expected of them.

This is true of some folks with specific disabilities, and some folks without disabilities (diagnosed or undiagnosed, homeschooling or B&M schooling). I've never seen any of these people learn this in a B&M school, either.

Some people don't have these skills naturally and are able to learn them enough to "pass" socially for some minutes. Some seem unable to learn them. Simple exposure to a random group doesn't suffice for some of us to learn the stuff -we can be in large groups for 12 years and still have no idea why things are going poorly for us socially. We can hang with people who don't mind our ways or (my preference for me and my kid) we can move to a therapeutic environment and learn the stuff others learn intuitively. But simply being in a B&M school doesn't make us normal.

Personally, I don't highly value "expected social norms." I value kindness, honesty, friendliness...but not just social norms in general. I'm friends with mostly "weird" adults who don't manage social norms, but are solidly good people who create, produce, connect...  Good enough for me! I've known a handful of people that were socially awkward in the way of being belligerent jerks -some were eventually diagnosed with neuro stuff, some declined to be assessed. It's important to me that my kid learn how to not do those behaviours, but I don't need anyone to live out all norms.

Cultivating originality is wonderful, as is teaching kids to resist pressures to conform.  But there's a point at which it becomes a disservice.

I agree on both counts.

But I'm not going to close my eyes to the very real issues that do exist in the homeschool community.

Me neither. Nor those in any other system/community.