Author Topic: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.  (Read 61011 times)

gaja

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #200 on: December 27, 2017, 06:33:50 AM »
Disclaimer: My bias: I was a public school teacher for 7 years. I have a master's degree in elementary education. Then I was an instructional coach for teachers (as an "expert" regarding teaching itself), working with teachers to help improve their teaching, and leading professional development sessions for my last year before I FIRE'd. I very likely will homeschool my kids, when the time comes.

I get the impression that a lot of home schoolers feel like primary school and high school teachers are just random adults who like kids.  They don't recognize any value in getting a degree in education.  They have no exposure to pedagogy, or strategies for behavioral problems, or specialized support for kids with disabilities.  They think any moron can stand at a blackboard and say "reach chapter 3, test on Friday" and call themselves a teacher.

I don't disagree, for the most part, but I do need to point out that parents don't need to have strategies for kids with disabilities, if their kids have disabilities.   They only need to be experts in strategies for their own kids.

Many parents, regardless of schooling choice, that I have met, have done a LOT of work to become specialists in what their own kids need.  Autism, high achievers, anxiety, dyslexia,  when a need is identified, interested parents often become that kid's specialist.

I have two kids with disabilities. Yes, DH and I are experts on our kids, but we would never have gotten them as far as we have without regular (positive and negative) feedback from the outside. The outside input has ensured we are correcting the course regularly, rather than doing suboptimal things because we think we have found THE way to do this. They have been in local public schools all the time, excepts for 2-6 weeks a year where the oldest is in a residential school for the deaf (also public, btw). I don't always agree with the doctors, teachers, physical therapists, or other people who have strong opinions about what we should do for our kids. But my children definetly benefit from getting all that different input. We make 6 month work plans in cooperation with the teachers, where we typically put more of the social training and language skills in the school's box, while we at home will focus on the academic part.

I've stopped counting all the times a specialist (doctor, teacher, audiologist, etc) has suggested a new activity or approach, I've wanted to veto it because it sounds stupid or just the wrong type of thing to be focusing on, give them the benefit of doubt, and then the kid comes back from that training session with a completely new skill. Or the times we have gone to a meeting about the kid with palsy issues, happy about the development of one muscle, and the specialists have shown us that the kid has been loosing movement in a different muscle.

Most importantly, keeping them i public school ensures that we don't get too hyper focused on dealing with the diabilities, but remember the entire kid.
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CindyBS

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #201 on: December 27, 2017, 01:52:21 PM »
Disclaimer: My bias: I was a public school teacher for 7 years. I have a master's degree in elementary education. Then I was an instructional coach for teachers (as an "expert" regarding teaching itself), working with teachers to help improve their teaching, and leading professional development sessions for my last year before I FIRE'd. I very likely will homeschool my kids, when the time comes.

I get the impression that a lot of home schoolers feel like primary school and high school teachers are just random adults who like kids.  They don't recognize any value in getting a degree in education.  They have no exposure to pedagogy, or strategies for behavioral problems, or specialized support for kids with disabilities.  They think any moron can stand at a blackboard and say "reach chapter 3, test on Friday" and call themselves a teacher.

I don't disagree, for the most part, but I do need to point out that parents don't need to have strategies for kids with disabilities, if their kids have disabilities.   They only need to be experts in strategies for their own kids.

Many parents, regardless of schooling choice, that I have met, have done a LOT of work to become specialists in what their own kids need.  Autism, high achievers, anxiety, dyslexia,  when a need is identified, interested parents often become that kid's specialist.

My kid has cancer (for real).  I don't need to take him to an oncologist who will work with him, I just need to become an expert myself and I will give him the appropriate chemos.  After all, I am an expert on strategies for my kid.  I've done A LOT of work to become a specialist on what my kid needs.

Sound pretty reckless and irresponsible, right?  And with cancer, that attitude could kill him.

My kid has Autism too (for real) and a learning disability (for real) and is also Gifted/Talented (for real). 

I also find it reckless and irresponsible for me to try to teach him instead of a special ed teacher.  Because even though I know my kid and they don't, they have a lot of experience with kids with his disabilities.  He started high school this year.  His teacher has been teaching high school kids with disabilities for literally decades.  Not to mention things like the fact he is in an AP class for a subject that I didn't take a singe class of in college.
 On the first day of school, I had exactly 1 day experience working with a high school student with a disability.

From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.


TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #202 on: December 27, 2017, 02:24:22 PM »
From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.
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Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #203 on: December 27, 2017, 02:52:15 PM »
From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.
The secretary of education.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #204 on: December 27, 2017, 02:59:21 PM »
From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.
The secretary of education.

Specific examples? 

As I stated:
Quote
is encouraging the eradication of public education

Are your examples going to show the desire to eradicate public education or to drastically reconstruct it?Because those are very different things.  If you provide no sources (or even a real argument) than I'll just assume I'm right.
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sol

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #205 on: December 27, 2017, 03:30:00 PM »
This whole thread started with the presupposition that public schoolers "hate" homeschooling.  I think a little bit of turnabout is fair play, as part of the ongoing discussion.

Maybe don't be shocked by it? 
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Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #206 on: December 27, 2017, 04:07:13 PM »
From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.
The secretary of education.

Specific examples? 

As I stated:
Quote
is encouraging the eradication of public education

Are your examples going to show the desire to eradicate public education or to drastically reconstruct it?Because those are very different things.  If you provide no sources (or even a real argument) than I'll just assume I'm right.
You can assume anything you want, as evidenced by this thread.  But you'd be wrong.  And that would be obvious to anyone who has paid any attention to her or even did the bare minimum of research.
See a quote from time:
One of President Trump’s first acts was to appoint the most anti-public education person ever to lead the Department of Education. Betsy DeVos has called public schools a “dead end” and bankrolled a private school voucher measure in Michigan that the public defeated by a two-to-one ratio. When that failed, she spent millions electing legislators who then did her bidding slashing public school budgets and spreading unaccountable for-profit charters across the state. The result? Nearly half of Michigan’s charter schools rank in the bottom of U.S. schools, and Michigan dropped from 28th to 41st in reading and from 27th to 42nd in math compared with other states.

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #207 on: December 27, 2017, 04:27:34 PM »
This whole thread started with the presupposition that public schoolers "hate" homeschooling.  I think a little bit of turnabout is fair play, as part of the ongoing discussion.

Maybe don't be shocked by it?

Nope.  I only said 'hate' once and was using it in the modern context (as in hating on something/someone)

Build a different strawman and lets get back to the discussion.

First post reposted:

...

Since homeschooling is generally associated with (Christian) religion there's certainly animosity from that respect. I think a lot of it comes down to violating the status quo. Educating your children outside the state-run public schools is very threatening to those that want everyone to fit neatly into secular society. It is also threatening to the education complex as its seen as taking money away from public schools since school funding is linked to the number of enrolled students.

This interests me.

So you are saying that some would object to a child not going to a school because the federal funding that is set on a per-child basis is going to be reduced.  But if the federal funding (that is given on a per child basis) is truly a payment for the associated costs of the number of children in a school, then either (1) my child's lack of attendance equals out the lack of funding that (logically) should be specifically used for my child OR (2) federal funding given on a per child basis is not actually spend on a per child basis.

I'll tell you why thats a big deal.  Federal funding has been linked to the number of kids because the assumption is that the spending should be based on the number of children.  My child's absence does not negate my 'portion' of the federal taxation and spending on schooling, therefore I am actually (technically) paying more than my fair share as I have resources available to use that I intentionally forego and still pay for.  That is without including property tax / state tax (though I have no state tax).

The 'hate' of homeschooling is logically inconsistent from a financial standpoint which only leaves (1) the educational standpoint or (2) the religious standpoint.

To address #1, homeschoolers consistent perform better than their peers on testing and have higher college GPAs given that parents include them in some form of structured education (whether that be a structured, solo lesson plan, homeschool group, or online education such as Khan Academy).
Source 1: https://www.nmu.edu/education/sites/DrupalEducation/files/UserFiles/Moreau_Kathi_MP.pdf (page 19 specifically)
Source 2: https://www.nheri.org/research/research-facts-on-homeschooling.html See 'Academic Performance'
Source 3: Ray, Brian D. https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ682480
Source 4: http://www.othereducation.org/index.php/OE/article/view/10
Source 5: https://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html
Source 6: Kunzman R. 2009. Understanding homeschooling: A better approach to regularization. Theory and Research in Education, 7: 311–330. http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ860946&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ860946
Source 7: Martin-Chang S, Gould ON, and Meuse, R E. The impact of schooling on academic achievement: Evidence from homeschooled and traditionally schooled students. Canadian Journal of Behavioural Science 43(3): 195-202.
Source 8: Rudner L. 1999. Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998. Education Policy Analysis Archives, 7(1) 1-38.


....

So that leave us with #2, the religious standpoint.

Now, can someone explain to me why there is blanket condemnation of the travel ban but yet its ok to be against homechooling "Because Christianity!"

How can you rectify the disapproval on a religious-based travel ban but then disagree with homeschooling for religious (or anti-religious) reasons?  Why does one religion deserve the support of free will and exercise but another does not?

Those who are against homeschooling either (1) don't understand the data, (2) don't understand the positive financial implications or (3) disagree with it due to a religious or anti-religious viewpoint.  Show me otherwise.

I have copied this post in from the below linked thread for reference:

Original Post
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #208 on: December 27, 2017, 04:38:23 PM »
You can assume anything you want, as evidenced by this thread.  But you'd be wrong.  And that would be obvious to anyone who has paid any attention to her or even did the bare minimum of research.

So she wants to eradicate the availability of free education to all people?  Or does she just want to do something drastically different (and has shitty results along the way)?

Because those are still different things.  Wanting to do something different is not the same as wanting to eradicate public schools.  Besides, I was specifically asking who was saying [homeschoolers] did not want public school?  None of the pro-homschooler posts I have seen on here have discredited the value of public school, just noted its flaws in the system.

 
Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.

Besides, it would be great if this thread didn't devolve into one of the dozens of Trumpist / Trump-hate threads on the forum.  There are already plenty of those...
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #209 on: December 27, 2017, 04:40:05 PM »

Those muscles won't get flexed at home the way they will when the kids encounter other children that are rude, or misbehave, or behave better than them.  I've had lots of moral conversations with my own kids, prompted by the behavior of their school peers, both good and bad.  I think putting them in a nonselective school with all of humanity is a pretty good way to develop this aspect of their person, and as a family that does prioritize education, I believe that we are adding to learning environment
But there are ways to have the same ‘socialization’ with homeschooling.  There are homeschool groups that include a wide swath of individuals, and many other activities that would occur outside the ‘umbrella of influence’ of a parent.  These lessons can be learned many ways outside of public school, if the parent cares to do so.
What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?
Culture: The diversity of our friends is much higher than the population of the schools
 
+1 on this.  I realized that my circle of friends (and their kids) has more diversity by percentage than our public schools…
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #210 on: December 27, 2017, 04:40:37 PM »
As a teacher and school administrator, I think homeschool can be a good option for the extreme outliers.

Those are the extremes of the spectrum. I have yet to hear any compelling arguments for why homeschool is better for typical children here or anywhere else. Sure, it’s better for parents in a lot of cases. But parents aren’t the important ones in this conversation.

My daughter was bringing home ‘coloring pages’ (which was the most educational thing she would do that day) completely filled in with solid crayon.  When we asked her about it, she said she did the activity but then had to sit around ‘for a very long time’ and got bored, so she colored in the whole page.  We flipped her page over and examined it with a bright light and yup- she had done the whole thing (and done it correctly).  But then she took a black crayon and had enough time to diligently, intentionally and carefully fill in the entirety of the page over what she had already colored.  I bet she spent twice as long filling in the page as she did coloring it to begin with.  You want to tell me that is a useful resource of her time or is somehow educational? 

Systematically, public school wastes TONS of time, all the way up through high school.  Compare it to college (class starts and ends EXACTLY when it supposed to, and all other time is discretionary) or work (you work, get stuff done and make money- go home) and I really don’t see how public school is teaching anything other than obedience through tedium and how to ride the clock.  Not exactly the skillset I think my kids need…

On a personal note, as the child of fundamental Christians who were thankfully too poor to home school due to both parents needing to work outside the home, I am so grateful for public education. I was very sheltered (no after school activities allowed, school mates were considered “bad association” so weren’t allowed to socialize outside of school, etc.) My parents meant well, the way all parents mean well when they don’t allow for any variation in belief, but I was never a “believer.” I always doubted. And I thought something was wrong with me until I was able to meet other people outside our bubble who had a variety of backgrounds and beliefs.

I’m sorry your parents were like that.  I would bet with a more accurate picture of Christianity and your (now adult) understanding of your parents, that they weren’t really fulfilling what the New Testament describes as Christianity. 

I used to be assistant you pastor at a previous church and had two girls who would occasionally miss and whose parents (specifically the dad) were very upset about them coming to youth group…  They considered the youth group to be ‘bad association’ and also did many of the things you mention (not allowing extracurriculars, friends are not welcome, etc).  I wouldn’t consider that a Christianity failure but rather a parenting failure, and have seen it on both sides.  Not exactly comforting and I’m not meaning to discredit your experiences, but I would not consider that ‘normal’ at all.

Probably not comforting but life moves on.  :/

Those of you who homeschool and plan to teach your children about other religions, that’s admirable in thought. It’s fairly pointless though. You’re biased. The materials you choose will likely be biased. There’s a world of difference between you teaching what other people believe and the kind of building they use, etc.  and your children hearing from other believers what they believe and why and how it makes them feel. Religion is not fact-based. It’s not logical. It’s a set of beliefs based on feelings and experiences and faith. You can’t teach that the same way you teach math. So all your lessons don’t mean much in the long run without real world, ongoing interactions with people who are different than you. And those interactions are important, regardless of whether your children end up being believers or not. It’s not about the outcome. It’s about giving them agency to make their own decisions and become their own person.

Exactly.  That’s why my kids will speak directly with leaders / followers in the various religions (as I posted about myself doing upthread).  They will likely spend a week or so on each major religion, which, I would argue is more substantial than the education about religions that would be received from public school.

Beyond that, I anticipate more interaction between my kids any followers of other faiths or non-faith through extra curricular activities than they would receive in public school.

Data for my county shows 40050 respondents on religious association in the 2010 census, with 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses, 4 BahaI Faith, 122 Mormons and 324 no religious affiliation…  Leaving 39598 respondents claiming some level of mainstream Christianity…  Ya.. they’re not getting any association with other faiths through the Public School system so its really a moot point.  If they aren’t going to get it from public school either, than its really not a part of the conversation.

All of this is aside from the fact that public school teachers often have to hold back from discussing religions or teaching on them simply because of the potential blowback for potentially endorsing one over another.  In homeschooling, we don’t have that problem.  You see that as a bug but I see it as a feature.  If I want conversations with a regional Buddhist temple leader to be in my kids’ curriculum, I can knock myself out.  The public school would have 100 lawsuits on its hands.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:50:44 PM by TexasRunner »
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #211 on: December 27, 2017, 04:42:26 PM »
I've been tracking along with this thread as it's been updated. I forgot to include in my original post upthread another reason why homeschooling, at least in theory, makes me grouchy: as a teacher, I find it a little insulting that so many people are so confident that they could teach without any particular training or experience in the field.

This is a little edgier than the first thing I posted, and it obviously reflects a massive bias. Go ahead and homeschool your kids if you want. Like I said originally, I've seen people teach their own kids way better than I could have done.

I can’t teach better than you, but I can teach my kids better than the public school system as a system currently can, and do so with more time to spare and more life flexibility than the public school system.

Congrats on the rant (really) but it’s a bit off-topic since most (all?) homeschoolers are discussing systematic problems and not personal teacher’s failures.  It isn’t the teacher’s fault that the system is flawed.  How much time do the upper 50% of your students spend not learning during the school day?  What if they could be sailing Indonesia instead?

Aside from that, there is a plethora of resources aside from just my wife and I.  There is Khan Academy, Dulingo, Three local homeschooling groups with curriculum on rotation, literally thousands of online homeschools, hundreds of online softwares and many options with a price of 15$ a year….  All of this is ignoring the personal connections and local options for education such as the librarian or college student that will gladly tutor their strong suite for a little side cash (or even for food, lol).

As much as the MMM community discusses online resources and the wide expanse of knowledge collectively found in the internet, you would think it would be a bit more pro-homeschooling.  There is an array of options where I am not the one solely responsible for educating my child.

Besides, as has been posted upthread, many of the skills regarding a bachelors degree in education are focused on learning styles, classroom management and behavior disorder management and recognition.  If your class only had three students, how much of that would have been excessive?

« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:51:10 PM by TexasRunner »
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #212 on: December 27, 2017, 04:43:30 PM »
Children have the right to an education. 
Nope nope nope nope nope…..   No one has the ‘right’ to an education.  We, as an advanced society, have the privilege to be educated through our common resources, but it is not an inherent right.  Or are you saying the kids in West Africa are having their rights withdrawn due to the lack of societal structure?

You are probably going to complain about semantics but it is a crucial difference to understand, and specifically alters the expectations of the social contract.

You have the right to not be murdered, and you have the right to have a dissenting opinion, but education is your privilege and not one to be taken lightly (by students or parents). 

Beyond that, by phrasing it as such, you have intrinsically accused those who homeschool (and do so not up to par with your standards) as infringing the rights of others, which is something the state, by its very nature, is expected to enforce. 
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #213 on: December 27, 2017, 04:44:50 PM »
Here in Florida, we have a a lot of homeschooling. Our older son is in competitive swimming, which also seems to attract a disproportionate share of homeschoolers. Here are my three main beefs with homeschooling:
1. You must accommodate us for sports. Yes, our kids don't go to your high school - or any high school. But we expect them to play for the local high school teams, even if they've never set foot in the building. If Tim Tebow could do it, so can my kid.
If they can try out for and make the team, whats the problem….?  I really don’t understand the issue here as long as they can actually be good enough to make the team, regularly show up for practice as they should and fulfill all other considerations.  Whats your beef with it?

2. (Boy Scouts) You know, my son doesn't really like camping (so accustomed to home-school, helicopter parenting). Plus he'd like to work on the merit badges on his own outside the troop and summer camps. If we can homeschool regular schooling, why can't we homeschool Scouting?
(True story).
That’s already a thing….  Though doing solo scouting when a troop is available is probably going to prevent you from getting your Eagle, or at least have a board very carefully consider the merits of such action.  Besides, it would be near impossible to complete a majority of the merit badges without going to summer camp or winter camp.  They require too many site-specific tasks.  Solo scouts are required to attend these to make progress.

3. One of the major challenges of our current generation of parenting (I have 15 and 12-year-old boys) is instilling any sort of initiative or independence. Kids are wonderful sheep, following their overscheduled lives, being taught to the test, checking the boxes, etc. They do not play unsupervised, mow lawns or any sort of middle-school age job. The one thing that's at least somewhat independent in our helicopter parenting, micrromanaged world is going to school. Homeschool your kids and you've taken that away, too.
I’m not following this…  How exactly does it apply to homeschooling?
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #214 on: December 27, 2017, 04:45:20 PM »
The "socialisation" I learned at school bears very little resemblance to any adult social interactions I have. Sure, you have to learn how to get on with different people and deal with rules and schedules and stuff, but you don't have to learn that in school any more than you have to learn fractions in school.

An extremely good point.  And with intentional building of social functions / actions, this can be outdone in homeschooling.  IMO
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #215 on: December 27, 2017, 04:45:44 PM »
Disclaimer: My bias: I was a public school teacher for 7 years. I have a master's degree in elementary education. Then I was an instructional coach for teachers (as an "expert" regarding teaching itself), working with teachers to help improve their teaching, and leading professional development sessions for my last year before I FIRE'd. I very likely will homeschool my kids, when the time comes.

I get the impression that a lot of home schoolers feel like primary school and high school teachers are just random adults who like kids.  They don't recognize any value in getting a degree in education.  They have no exposure to pedagogy, or strategies for behavioral problems, or specialized support for kids with disabilities.  They think any moron can stand at a blackboard and say "reach chapter 3, test on Friday" and call themselves a teacher.

Nope.  Your impression is incorrect as far as I can tell.  Many homeschoolers think the world of teachers, it’s the systematic inefficiencies and soul-sucking mindlessness of the system that they cant stand.  Which you, yourself posted on quite clearly upthread and several times since. See below:


… The point is to teach kids to sit quietly and follow directions, to defer to artificial authority, to be routed into a trade or a university program that will keep them constrained and directed toward a goal that benefits our capitalist overlords.  We don't need or want a society of freethinkers!

Public school is also a place to send kids so they don't roam the streets of your town in packs every day, looting and pillaging.  So they don't deal drugs in dark alleyways and give each other herpes.  It's centralized daycare in a structured environment, and any book-learning they do along the way, while admirable, is kind of a secondary benefit.  …

If that’s the system you want to put your kids into, go ahead, but don’t force me and my kids to do the same.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #216 on: December 27, 2017, 04:46:12 PM »
They have to devalue the education professions in order to justify their belief that they can do it as well as qualified practitioners.

That’s blatantly false and deconstructive to the conversation.
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #217 on: December 27, 2017, 04:47:07 PM »
I firmly believe that any caring parent has the ability to adequately homeschool a child academically all the way through high school if they want to.  When you hit a subject you feel you can't teach, you find someone who can and/or use the amazing online resources that are available to all of us.  Or --use the public school curriculum, which is made available to all homeschoolers in the states I've lived in.  I agree with the poster above that many folks on this thread who don't homeschool seem to not understand what it is, or can be.  None of the homeschool families I know go it alone, sitting at a table with their kid all day, shutting themselves off from society.

Exactly.  There is a stereotype that homeschoolers are walled into a basement with no windows and an indoctrination book from the 70s, and when they emerge from their ‘sheltered cocoon’ into the real world, they are socially awkward and unable to form normal relationships…  How come stereotypes of blacks or gays (or anyone really) are not OK but stereotyping homeschoolers and calling for regulation is fine?...   Seems a bit hypocritical.


My opinion -- this lack of regulation will result in wide variation in the quality of home school education, but how is that much different than the huge quality variation we see in the public schools?

A good point.  I would be fine with having some level of standardized testing, but really no one has discussed the compromises.  Right now, homeschooling has all the cards, why would they give any up?  Considering it isn’t the federal government’s job to determine education (despite the fact that we all kinda just ignore that ‘belongs to the states part of the consistution’) it is the state’s job if it so decides.  I’m happy with it being unregulated considering additional regulations could easily provide problems for me and my family and it still wouldn’t address the fundamental problem of the outliers.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #218 on: December 27, 2017, 07:08:49 PM »
Interesting thread. I went to public school early on till maybe 3rd or 4th grade, then home schooled till 7th grade where I went back in. I've also been a specialized type of teacher, to adults. So I've got some opinions but maybe not some as radical as those expressed and argued about.

I think that you should avoid using *ONLY* broad statistics to make locally based and individual choices. For example:

Me: Wife and I both work, me in a fairly complex, brain taxing field at a high level. We live in an area with very good public schools (one of the best districts in the state, one high school in the top 50 nationwide) that teach not only to test scores but also kindness, courage, character, good citizenship, conflict resolution. Teachers really care and parents are very engaged. We can supplement the excellent schools with subjects at home they like. Kind of DGAF if some study says more homeschoolers go to college, for our particular situation public schools are a no brainer.

Someone else, somewhere else (like where I grew up): Public schools are poorly performing. Lots of violence, bullying, drugs. Mom stays at home with the kids anyway. There is a low cost homeshooling program available via the church the couple goes to. Kids do really well on the lessons, have friends in the neighborhood to play with anyway and some get togethers via the homeschool group. Homeschooling, equally a no brainer.

Either option works fine if executed well. With the resources available today coming up with a good roadmap isn't hard. Executing it well and dealing with challenges that pop up will be the real work with either method. Doing that is part of parenting excellence, and it's something all parents should work on no matter who is doing the educating.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #219 on: December 27, 2017, 07:35:58 PM »
Really, none of this proves nor disproves anything. Anti-homeschoolers are working off anecdotal info and cultural biases, and homeschoolers are doing the same. This is how these threads always devolve. Examples of broad generalizations thus far:

* A majority in the public school camp are going off about religion -- NOT ALL HS FAMILIES ARE RELIGIOUS.

* Helicopter parenting - hahhahahhhahahha... oh sorry. I've never been called a helicopter parent before. It was the public school parents I knew that thought I was irresponsible when I gave my eldest a bus pass and text-only cell phone at 13. I'm not a taxi driver.

* A notion that HS kids use public schools to no mutual benefit. This is a misunderstanding of the system in states that allow this. My kid does any activity at a public school, the school gets money for him as a part-time student. Plus, my taxes help fund the school. My eldest son's test scores were so high that I had two different high schools request he take the tests at their school instead of through the outreach campus. Why? His numbers would improve their numbers and their funding.

From the other side:

* HSers seem to always think public schools are failing. Some are, most are doing an adequate or even amazing job. One public school horror story is just one story. The vast majority of public schooled children are thriving, well adjusted, and getting a solid start in life.

* Gubmint is going to take away our rights. This always comes out as a huge deal. I live in one of the most liberal states in the nation. It also has some of the least regulation when it comes to homeschooling, and a huge option of services aimed specifically at home schoolers. We progressive pinkoes aren't taking away homeschooling rights.

* Blaming the teachers. Why? That's like shooting the messenger. I was a public school employee in a prior life (writing lab tutor, I have no teacher training), before I began homeschooling. I wasn't union but I still got the newsletter in my mailbox, so I got to see how the unions were fighting stupid policy and school board decisions. The things that upset homeschoolers about education in the classroom? Those are the same things that tend to upset teachers, too. We're on the same side.


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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #220 on: December 27, 2017, 10:25:40 PM »
re: Poster that asked if services were available to kids in schools, would we put them in school. Many of us, yes. If our kids were reasonably safe there, nurtured to thrive, and supported per their needs, we would. Many families identify as "involuntarily homeschooling", meaning the school system's whacky ways drove the family out and pushed the family very reluctantly into homeschooling. Many families who homeschool were scared to, before they made the leap.

My "queasiness" about homeschooling is this:   I believe that "It takes a village to raise a child".   If homeschooling is widely prevalent, I believe that far more children would "fall through the cracks" than today, even with education the way that it is.   It would be very easy to hide neglect or other poor parenting through a guise of homeschooling.   These issues are often identified or corrected through wide interactions between the child and the community (e.g. school) because there is a new teacher every year, and many more people have a chance to interact with the child.

[...]

Is there a place between public schooling and home schooling that would work for the majority of students?

Every homeschooler I know is in this situation currently. i.e., They are homeschoolers, but because they are in several community clubs, classes, or therapeutic sessions weekly, there are additional adults who have opportunity to observe them (emotional expressions, dress, weight, signs of injury). They have some adults for the long-term, and also regularly have new ones added to their world. I don't know any homeschoolers who don't have this interaction.

Imprisoning/secluding a child is not okay, but as posters here have noted that's very different than homeschooling.
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jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #221 on: December 27, 2017, 10:40:49 PM »
Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Interesting! A regional difference, maybe: The vast majority of kids I know who homeschool have disabilities, and this was the reason for HS.
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CindyBS

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #222 on: December 28, 2017, 06:47:40 AM »
From the wording of your post, I assume you do not have a kid with a disability.  I didn't just hear this or meet some people with kids with disabilities, I live it every single day.  Please don't presume you know enough to tell the rest of us why we don't need special ed teachers and that we should homeschool.

Homeschooling is a good choice for some, but for me, and the majority of people I know with kids with a disabilities - we recognize our limitations and turn to real experts and specialists.  AKA - we send them to school.

Who is saying we don't need public school, or public resources, or that we don't all benefit from an educational infrastructure.  No one who supports homeschooling is saying that.

Your attacking an argument that doesn't exist.  Want to send your kid to school?  Great, have at it.  Want to have your kid interact with the specialists at school?  Again, great no problem. 

Where exactly is this "homeschoolers hate public school" mentality coming from?  Just because people point out the deficits of many public schools (and there are many) doesn't dictate that those people are inherently against having an educational infrastructure (usually the opposite, we care very deeply about education).

I keep seeing this argument pop up and no one is saying this.  Biggest strawman here, in my opinion, unless you can find someone (ANYONE) on here who is encouraging the eradication of public education.
The secretary of education.

Specific examples? 

As I stated:
Quote
is encouraging the eradication of public education

Are your examples going to show the desire to eradicate public education or to drastically reconstruct it?Because those are very different things.  If you provide no sources (or even a real argument) than I'll just assume I'm right.



I'm not really sure what the goal in all this is.  You want people to prove that it is ok to have anti-homeshooling bias.   A large variety of people have come forward and said why they are opposed to homeschooling and many of us have stated our reasons for sending our kids to public schools.  The vast majority of people, including myself, have stated that homeschool is a good choice for some kids. 

You obviously feel homeschooling is the right choice for your own kids.  Good for you.  For my own kids, I feel like public school is the right choice.   At what point does my opinion become bias? 

Frankly, aren't you overly biased towards homeschooling? I could say the same things to you that you have said to me.  Where is all this "public school parents hate homeschoolers" coming from?   Just because people point out the deficits of homeschooling does not mean they are inherently against having homeschooling.   Except when we do point out the deficits of homeschooling or even *gasp* the benefits of public school, we are accused of being biased.

It sounds an awful lot like you want to prove all us public school folks wrong and when we don't agree with you it is a problem.  Even the title of this thread is problematic.  Why do I have to prove anything to you?  Why isn't the burden on you to prove why your choice is ok?  Do you actually want anyone's opinion or do you just want to argue?  What do you want from people?  Is it just to be validated?

Seriously, what is the goal here?  Because you are not changing my mind, if anything you are reinforcing my opinion.   
 

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #223 on: December 28, 2017, 07:49:46 AM »
I was born and raised outside of Christianity in Texas, the buckle of the Bible Belt. The idea that the only exposure you will get is a couple of minor encounters with Christianity and that it is realistically impossible to shelter your kids from it if you want to is laughable.

Anecdote time!

I am a scientist.  After finishing my PhD, I interviewed for faculty positions around the country, including at one of those famous Texas universities with a strong religious background.  During my interview (to teach a hard science to undergrads) I was told, quite literally and explicitly, that the university was not looking to hire a scientist who was also a christian.  "Whew!" I thought to myself, "maybe there is hope for the world after all..." except that was immediately followed up with "We're looking to hire a christian who is also a scientist."

Yea, that interview didn't last much longer. 

They're a private college.  They are legally allowed to discriminate against me in their hiring, regardless of my qualifications.  But the idea that Christianity does not weave its tendrils into every facet of modern life is laughable.  I had not sought out the judgmental derision of christians.  I was not able to avoid "exposure" to christian ideology while pursuing a wholly secular career in my professional life.  If my kids ever become scientists, they too will face the hostile work environment christianity creates for people like me.  I will not be able to shelter them from it.


I agree with every word of your post, Sol.

More anecdotes!   My DH (scientist) has multiple stories like yours.  When he interviewed for one of his jobs (public university!!) the chair of the department asked him -- during the interview -- what church DH belonged to, and said if DH got the job, maybe he'd like to come visit his church to check it out.

Another time DH volunteered to spend a Saturday in his lab with a local Boy Scout troop to help them with one of their merit badges.  The troop leader took him aside a few days ahead of time and asked him what his plans were for working God into the day.  DH told him flat out, "Look, you guys can pray beforehand, or afterwards, or whatever you want, but this is science class, not religion class. I don't do that."  Boy Scout leader was not happy.  The troop went ahead with it, though.  I guess they decided, on balance, the good outweighed the evil (?)

Christianity is everywhere in this country.  We're all soaking in it.

Edited to add:  This happened in a northern 'blue' state. Nowhere near the "Bible belt."

It's everywhere in this world where the year is 2017 and soon to be 2018.

Some people call it Common Era instead of Anno Domini, but that's like calling the 13th floor the 14th floor. You know what happened in 0 CE/AD, and you know damn well you're not really on the 14th floor. Calling it something else doesn't change the fact that Jesus literally split time in half for the whole world forever.

But the date doesn't read Christian in such an obvious way, so I imagine no one would actually be upset or feel smothered in Christianity because of it. There's no viable alternative, so, like children receiving their father's surnames, we keep it even if we occasionally recognize its universal shortcomings.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #224 on: December 28, 2017, 07:56:35 AM »
Just to nitpick, there is no "year zero."  Also, the birth of Christ is commonly believed to be 4 B.C.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #225 on: December 28, 2017, 08:39:51 AM »


What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

This stands out to me as a homeschooling parent, because I can't see it coming from any other perspective than that of all homeschoolers are straight, white, christians.

That comment was posed to a straight, white, Christian parent who chose to home-school for what sounded very much like religious reasons.

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #226 on: December 28, 2017, 09:05:30 AM »
What kind of exposure to radically different cultures, religions, and sexual orientation do you provide your children when home schooling them?

This stands out to me as a homeschooling parent, because I can't see it coming from any other perspective than that of all homeschoolers are straight, white, christians.

That comment was posed to a straight, white, Christian parent who chose to home-school for what sounded very much like religious reasons.

/\
He makes a good point...

Though I have been pleased to see the diversity of homeschooling parents, though the MMM leftward lean probably magnifies this effect.  Either way, kudos to GuitarStv since the following line of debate led me to alter and add a few gaps in 'the plan'.
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TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #227 on: December 28, 2017, 09:40:15 AM »
I'm not really sure what the goal in all this is.  You want people to prove that it is ok to have anti-homeshooling bias.   (1) A large variety of people have come forward and said why they are opposed to homeschooling and (2) many of us have stated our reasons for sending our kids to public schools.  The vast majority of people, including myself, have stated that homeschool is a good choice for some kids. (3) 
Regarding (1) The original purpose was for me to explore and see if my presuppositions/understanding of anti-homeschool bias positions was correct.  It appears that my original understanding is pretty accurate, A- some disagree with the financial math (and homeschoolers generally don't want tax deductions *), B- some feel that the education you can receive at home is inadequate (see the GuitarStv concerns about social education, or the teacher posts from Sol and EnglishTeacherAlex about 'homeschool parents think they know better', whic appears to be concern for student welfare), though I disagree with their assumptions and conclusions, and finally C- Several have issues with the religious aspect of homeschooling (as posted above, several times) and while I can't speak for others, I personally find my faith logical and strong enough to endure scrutiny, and expect ,y kids to have the same.  Beyond that, many non-christian homeschoolers have posted and cited their various reasons, so I find that point settled.

Overall, I was exploring if there were other areas of concern or genuine weaknesses in homeschooling aside from the three in my original post to which I was blind.  If there was something other than the "financial", "educational" or "religious" reasons for being against homeschooling (hence the prove me wrong).  Really everything that has been posted about 'anti-homeschool' has fallen pretty cleanly into those areas (though an upthread point about abuse protection / discovery expands from those, but it has been discussed).  And I thank the pro-homeschool posters who discussed/debated the various merits or demerits of those posts.


Regarding (2) I don't want public schools defunded.  I don't think any of the pro-homeschool posters on here do either.  I fully agree with Sol that tax deductions for homeschool (and private school for that matter) is a bad idea.  And the comment towards DeVos was honestly kind of left-field, considering she is much more engaged towards charter schools than homeschooling (and I think shes a loon).  Considering homeschoolers still pay property taxes, I'm not sure how its relevant to the discussion- (and I really didn't want this thread going the mud-slinging everybody-gets-shit-on route... lol)

You obviously feel homeschooling is the right choice for your own kids.  Good for you.  For my own kids, I feel like public school is the right choice.   At what point does my opinion become bias? 
I agree completely with this statement.  Personally, I would draw the line when liberty is infringed.  I have the liberty to educate my kids in any way I see fit under our current system, and we can argue about the merits of that to no end, but what this thread was originally referencing were several 'anti-homeschooling' comments (both on this forum and elsewhere) that played on more than just the financial/tax-deduction aspect but also into the educational aspect.  I wanted to see if there was a wider field of dissension than my presupposition of anti-homeschool bias.  Either way, it appears almost all bias (from both sides) comes from a position of ignorance (IE not knowing the details of homeschooler % attendance or success in college (caring about the educational aspect) or not knowing the multiple reasons one may choose to homeschool (why would anyone 'isolate' their kids) to not understanding that homeschooling ≠ societal isolation (as some seem to think)) and a position of ignorance is never a good place to be...

Frankly, aren't you overly biased towards homeschooling? I could say the same things to you that you have said to me.  Where is all this "public school parents hate homeschoolers" coming from?   Just because people point out the deficits of homeschooling does not mean they are inherently against having homeschooling.   Except when we do point out the deficits of homeschooling or even *gasp* the benefits of public school, we are accused of being biased.

I would not consider noting the potential pitfalls of homeschooling as bias, nor would I consider pointing out the potential good things about public school as bias-  but what I do consider bias is the consideration that (1) homeschooling is wrong because of "heterosexual white evangelical christians" "brainwashing" their "funky dogma" into their kids.  That is bias, possibly with merit and possibly without.  Most everything in the middle has been fine.

It sounds an awful lot like you want to prove all us public school folks wrong and when we don't agree with you it is a problem.  Even the title of this thread is problematic.  Why do I have to prove anything to you?  Why isn't the burden on you to prove why your choice is ok?  Do you actually want anyone's opinion or do you just want to argue?  What do you want from people?  Is it just to be validated?

You know, you really didn't have to participate in the thread if you didn't want too...  No one is making you post here.

And I don't want to "prove all us public school folks wrong"...   I want to engage with the "anti-homeschool folks" to see what merits can be mutually understood.  This section seems to me like you are trying to take this political and group me into the DeVos camp...  I'm not in that camp.

"Why isn't the burden on you to prove why your choice is ok?"  Because I have the liberty in this country to educate my children in the best manner I see fit.  For me, that means stepping back from public school and into a different education model.  For others, it may be different things.  But what I will not tolerate is the accusatory methodology that many take on when discussing homeschooling (they'll be awkward, they won't fit in socially, their education will suffer, etc) when, in reality, many of those are demonstrably false.

Seriously, what is the goal here?  Because you are not changing my mind, if anything you are reinforcing my opinion.

The goal is to see if there are valid anti-homeschool concerns, specifically anything outside of the "major three" anti-homeschooling points in the first post, that I may be missing.  I'm not looking to change your mind- such a thing is extremely rare in online interactions anyways (hence the constant squabble of politics).  I am, however, enjoying the discussion and many of the points being made (on both sides) and would really appreciate it if it didn't tangent into the political BS.  If we want to discuss policy positions, that fine, but name dropping Trump or his associates is going to ruin the thread.





(Edit to clarify the first line, that read really poorly...)


*http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/05/28/why-homeschoolers-dont-want-school-vouchers/
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:50:47 AM by TexasRunner »
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Nick_Miller

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #228 on: December 28, 2017, 09:59:34 AM »
I am torn on homeschooling....

On one hand, I've seen how crappy many public schools are. It starts with parents. They are apathetic. They are lacking education themselves. They do not run structured, healthy households. They never should have had kids in the first place. So guess who gets the responsibility of trying to mold these kiddos into something resembling responsible citizens? Public schools. And unlike some corporation, they do not get a "Quality Control" department that lets them jettison problematic products. The products are the kiddos, and they have to do the best they can with each of them, regardless of the obstacles. When you think about it, that's an almost impossible task for ANYONE.

On the other hand, most parents, even highly educated ones, just don't have the depth or breadth of knowledge to replace a whole team of highly-trained teachers, especially once you get out of elementary school. I know I sure as hell don't. Teaching advanced math, science, etc., would be way beyond the scope of my abilities, and I'm one of the "smart" parents! I know some homeschoolers network, pool resources, bring in specialist teachers, and yes I can see the merit of that. But then I consider how many of these kids will be sheltered in little mini what I could call religious cults, where the parents' ideas are not challenged in any meaningful way. I know that does not describe all homeschoolers. But I fear it describes many of them, especially the ones I know. They are all rather cultish and their heads almost explode when I talk science to them.

They both have huge flaws.


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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #229 on: December 28, 2017, 10:06:18 AM »
my only real concern about homeschool is that sometimes it appears it is falling into line w/ the anti-vaxxers. 


There should be a mandatory curriculum and state level testing as with other schools so your kids can function in society.  Other than that home school is just another arm of "parenting." 


I'm also biased as I have a cousin who is insane and shoots out babies like crazy.  6 now maybe?  They are manipulative leacherous profiteers.  They also homeschool.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2017, 10:32:00 AM »
my only real concern about homeschool is that sometimes it appears it is falling into line w/ the anti-vaxxers. 


There should be a mandatory curriculum and state level testing as with other schools so your kids can function in society.  Other than that home school is just another arm of "parenting." 


I'm also biased as I have a cousin who is insane and shoots out babies like crazy.  6 now maybe?  They are manipulative leacherous profiteers.  They also homeschool.

@clutchy, I have a similar cousin. Are we related?? Do you know Aunt Marlene??

me1

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #231 on: December 28, 2017, 10:47:21 AM »
Regarding (1) The original purpose was for me to explore and see if my presuppositions/understanding of anti-homeschool bias positions was correct.  It appears that my original understanding is pretty accurate, A- some disagree with the financial math (and homeschoolers generally don't want tax deductions *), B- some feel that the education you can receive at home is inadequate (see the GuitarStv concerns about social education, or the teacher posts from Sol and EnglishTeacherAlex about 'homeschool parents think they know better', whic appears to be concern for student welfare), though I disagree with their assumptions and conclusions, and finally C- Several have issues with the religious aspect of homeschooling (as posted above, several times) and while I can't speak for others, I personally find my faith logical and strong enough to endure scrutiny, and expect ,y kids to have the same.  Beyond that, many non-christian homeschoolers have posted and cited their various reasons, so I find that point settled.

None of these were really my main points about what I find objectionable with homeschooling, but maybe it was unclear. My main point is that it is not good for society if everyone homeschools and picks and chooses what their kids learn, and shapes their opinions alone (or by using only people they have approved of, and fall into their life philosophy). I understand in some cases it's unavoidable to homeschool (remote location, some special medical conditions, probably other things I am not thinking of right now, etc), but I think others do it for reasons of wanting to have complete control over what their kids think and how they think. I find this disturbing. To me the point of education is to learn to think, not memorize facts, or opinions that others want you to hold. Even if those others think they are doing a good thing.

And no, this is not an objection about passing on religious beliefs, but because of picking and choosing of what's important for kids to know, and then controlling what they are exposed to. I believe this leads to sheltered adults and to a splintered society where we can't have discussions when having differing opinions, it also makes it so those kids never have to explain those beliefs to anyone, and probably quite a shock when they run into people with other opinions as adults, and inability to form coherent arguments.

Of course, all of us whether home schooling or with kids in public schools, or private schools pass on our biases and our opinions to our kids. There is no way not to. It's just that when they are exposed to other teachers, other view points, just other people, they are better able to discern that these are just biases and opinions and not absolute truth.

I don't need my son to grow up to believe what I believe. Hell, if he wants to be a homeschooler when he grows up, I'd be fine with that. As long as he can articulate why with solid arguments.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2017, 10:51:54 AM »
In some (only some) of this discussion, it sounds like some people are being as narrow as those they see as being too narrow.

i.e., Some are saying, "...homeschool families have too little exposure to other ideas/cultures/information..." But this is showing that a given poster is having too little exposure to homeschool families.

If we're not meeting the ones that are nonreligious/educating well without a degree in education/liberal/exposed to diversity/etc, we can be the first ones to increase our exposure to diversity -that within the very giant homeschool world- rather than make broad declarations about homeschooling families.
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gaja

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #233 on: December 28, 2017, 11:23:11 AM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.
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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #234 on: December 28, 2017, 11:40:25 AM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

clutchy

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #235 on: December 28, 2017, 12:42:34 PM »
my only real concern about homeschool is that sometimes it appears it is falling into line w/ the anti-vaxxers. 


There should be a mandatory curriculum and state level testing as with other schools so your kids can function in society.  Other than that home school is just another arm of "parenting." 


I'm also biased as I have a cousin who is insane and shoots out babies like crazy.  6 now maybe?  They are manipulative leacherous profiteers.  They also homeschool.

@clutchy, I have a similar cousin. Are we related?? Do you know Aunt Marlene??

nope, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with insane cousins ;)

TexasRunner

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #236 on: December 28, 2017, 12:58:09 PM »
...

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

+1 This is accurate from my understanding...

Also note that basically ALL of American testing is multiple choice.  Generally just how its set up.  (Including the TAKS/Starr Exams (Texas), SAT, ACT and non-writing portion of the GRE, CLEP and the ACCUPLACER.  Not sure about the GMAT but I would bet its the same...).  We just like our multiple choice tests.  (Some of those do have a FEW questions that are data-entry, but generally only if they are delivered online, like the GRE).

The tests are pretty useful (for homeschooling) and homeschoolers generally test higher, though in that example there is possibly self-selection occurring (though self-selection also occurs for public school students regarding the SAT, so its anybody's guess on how far that swings the numbers...). 

https://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_StudyFINAL.pdf
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Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #237 on: December 28, 2017, 01:52:30 PM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

Correct.  In our state, homeschoolers are required to take the same standardized tests each year that public school kids take.  When a homeschooled kid finishes high school, the parent (a/k/a 'Administrator') of that homeschool issues a transcript and diploma, same as any private or public school.  Homeschooled kids take the same SAT test with everyone else, and then apply to college using their homeschool transcript and diploma.  From what I have read, colleges see it all the time.  I haven't heard of any difficulties with the college application process.

robartsd

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #238 on: December 28, 2017, 02:54:01 PM »
The point is to teach kids to sit quietly and follow directions, to defer to artificial authority, to be routed into a trade or a university program that will keep them constrained and directed toward a goal that benefits our capitalist overlords.  We don't need or want a society of freethinkers!
...
[Homeschoolers] seem to think public schools are terrible and need to be torn down...

I think the homeschoolers who think public schools are terrible and need to be torn down are thinking about real education as opposed to molding people into a state controlled society. I wonder how many in the "occupy" or similar protest movements were raised within the public school system vs. alternatives - it seems to me that they are rebelling against the artificial authority that they have been subjected too since they were children. I'd like to imagine that those who participated in alternatives realized that there are ways to minimize the artificial authority without smashng themsevles against it head on.

If the true benefit of public schools is the babysiting/keeping kids off the street/providing shelter and nutrition, we have major holes in this system from age 0-5 and from 4pm to 8am (not to mention weekends/school holidays). While I agree that more often than not those are the primary benefits public school systems actually provide, it is not what is sold to the voter/taxpayer and it is not particularly well designed to provide these things.

I agree with Sol that we don't need 529 funds going to private/religious/home school as a new tax break for the people who are already well off (single parent and dual full-time income families don't have the time needed for homeschool, below median income families probably don't have the money needed for private school). I don't see any reasonable arguments for treating home schools differently than other private education.

The homeschoolers that I am most familiar with actually used public school funding. A districit set up a charter school for homeschoolers. The students enrolled and were assigned an education specialist (I beleive they had teacher credentials) who visited the homeschoolers weekly to assess how homeschooling was going. This oversight came with resources (owned by the charter school - non consumables returned to the charter school when they were no longer being used). I think the situation was favorable for the school district because they counted the homeschool students as attending school. Although the pay to the education specialist was probalby aproximately equivilent to the pay per pupil of public school teachers, the district saved on facilities and may have spent less per pupil on other resources.

Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #239 on: December 28, 2017, 04:21:16 PM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

Correct.  In our state, homeschoolers are required to take the same standardized tests each year that public school kids take.  When a homeschooled kid finishes high school, the parent (a/k/a 'Administrator') of that homeschool issues a transcript and diploma, same as any private or public school.  Homeschooled kids take the same SAT test with everyone else, and then apply to college using their homeschool transcript and diploma.  From what I have read, colleges see it all the time.  I haven't heard of any difficulties with the college application process.
And what evidence does the parent have to show proving the student mastered the knowledge within each class that was graded?  What evidence does the parent show of their own competency to review the student's knowledge?  I know many state colleges that are required to believe the parents, but I know of many private colleges that refuse to have home school students (that did not get an AA first) because of those issues.  I knew quite a few home school students who were in community college during high school because of this (as underage students) because our state gave free community college to high school students.  This caused some issues at that level (teenagers with adults does not always work out well).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 06:32:03 PM by Gin1984 »

Undecided

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #240 on: December 28, 2017, 06:28:57 PM »

And no, this is not an objection about passing on religious beliefs, but because of picking and choosing of what's important for kids to know, and then controlling what they are exposed to. I believe this leads to sheltered adults and to a splintered society where we can't have discussions when having differing opinions, it also makes it so those kids never have to explain those beliefs to anyone, and probably quite a shock when they run into people with other opinions as adults, and inability to form coherent arguments.


The fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers I know included responses to all the common arguments over faith as a major part of their children's educations.

Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #241 on: December 29, 2017, 06:01:55 AM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

Correct.  In our state, homeschoolers are required to take the same standardized tests each year that public school kids take.  When a homeschooled kid finishes high school, the parent (a/k/a 'Administrator') of that homeschool issues a transcript and diploma, same as any private or public school.  Homeschooled kids take the same SAT test with everyone else, and then apply to college using their homeschool transcript and diploma.  From what I have read, colleges see it all the time.  I haven't heard of any difficulties with the college application process.
And what evidence does the parent have to show proving the student mastered the knowledge within each class that was graded?  What evidence does the parent show of their own competency to review the student's knowledge? 

These are good questions. I think you what you are really asking is, what is our basis to trust that the parent teacher (a) knows what they are doing, and (b) is being honest with their assessment of their kid. The short answer is -- we don't.  The long answer is -- you can't know or regulate such a thing with a homeschool system. There just aren't the resources to do it.  For this reason, I believe that many college admission offices put more weight on standardized testing than on grades for homeschool student applicants. 

Anecdote time!!  Just because a kid graduates public or private high school is also no proof that they have mastered the material they studied.  DH (longtime college professor) had a small handful of students each year in his science classes who could not do simple arithmetic.  I'm not talking calculus here. I'm talking questions like "What is 7 percent of 200?"  There was one student in particular that DH worked with very intensively to get his math up to scratch. (My hat is off to that guy. Most in that position dropped out of the class, but he didn't.  He dug in, and made up the ground.  Imagine -- with that drive -- what he could have done if he'd had a good education along the way!). The student honestly had no idea that he didn't know these things. He had gotten average to good grades in math in high school.

How on earth does this happen???  I can only conclude that the schools these kids attended aren't checking to see if the basics have been mastered, or not being honest about testing/grades. 

I don't think homeschool parents have any more incentive than public or private school teachers to inflate grades or "pass" students along.   Probably less.

gaja

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #242 on: December 29, 2017, 06:23:15 AM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

Correct.  In our state, homeschoolers are required to take the same standardized tests each year that public school kids take.  When a homeschooled kid finishes high school, the parent (a/k/a 'Administrator') of that homeschool issues a transcript and diploma, same as any private or public school.  Homeschooled kids take the same SAT test with everyone else, and then apply to college using their homeschool transcript and diploma.  From what I have read, colleges see it all the time.  I haven't heard of any difficulties with the college application process.
And what evidence does the parent have to show proving the student mastered the knowledge within each class that was graded?  What evidence does the parent show of their own competency to review the student's knowledge? 

These are good questions. I think you what you are really asking is, what is our basis to trust that the parent teacher (a) knows what they are doing, and (b) is being honest with their assessment of their kid. The short answer is -- we don't.  The long answer is -- you can't know or regulate such a thing with a homeschool system. There just aren't the resources to do it.  For this reason, I believe that many college admission offices put more weight on standardized testing than on grades for homeschool student applicants. 
As described above: we have oral or written exams in all subjects. It takes some resources, but isn't an extravagant cost. The out of pocket cost for each topic is $100-150 if you haven't passed the topic, $250 if you want to improve your grade. Usually, the private students get a spot alongside the public school students, so the total cost for the municipality doesn't increase much.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #243 on: December 29, 2017, 09:02:02 AM »
Please don't flame me for this idle thought, but is there anyone here who would advocate for testing for homeschooling parents? I.e. Not just testing the children post hoc but testing the parents before they are allowed to teach their children. Wondered if the "teachers are more qualified than parents" lot might support it.
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jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #244 on: December 29, 2017, 09:24:26 AM »
Please don't flame me for this idle thought, but is there anyone here who would advocate for testing for homeschooling parents? I.e. Not just testing the children post hoc but testing the parents before they are allowed to teach their children. Wondered if the "teachers are more qualified than parents" lot might support it.

I wouldn't -not for fear that we're incapable and would test as such, but because I don't support ANY irrelevant process in ANY area.

This idea presumes that post-secondary training is required in order to become a competent teacher. Many of us disagree with this idea. I accept that some people believe this to be so; I just don't believe the same thing. The evidence in front of me -comparing school results with unschool or homeschool results- tells me otherwise. But if someone insisted that my son's 12 homeschool teachers pass a test in their areas before we could teach him, meh, sure, no biggie. A waste of public time and funding, yes, but no real skin off our noses.

It's just such a difference paradigm. Some people believe that passing test = qualified to do x. Many see that not to be the case. At the same time, we do witness that many people who have not submitted to x test are wildly qualified to lead a child (or adult) in a given area.

Should everyone agree to buy in to the "test = qualified" paradigm? I think no. (I've had all my own best results with "unqualified" teachers in any given realm.) I think it's excellent, though, that there are schools for people who hold the strong belief that "tested = qualified" so that they, too, are comfortable re: their child's environment.
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Trifele

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #245 on: December 29, 2017, 09:25:46 AM »
Please don't flame me for this idle thought, but is there anyone here who would advocate for testing for homeschooling parents? I.e. Not just testing the children post hoc but testing the parents before they are allowed to teach their children. Wondered if the "teachers are more qualified than parents" lot might support it.

My first thought:  Not sure how this would work with the things homeschoolers outsource.  In our state, when you sign up to homeschool the parent is the Administrator of the school (it's treated like a private school) but not necessarily the teacher for all subjects.  Different families do it differently, but our kids take some classes elsewhere, either with individual tutors or organizations. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #246 on: December 29, 2017, 09:41:45 AM »
My 2 cents from personal experience. Homeschooled children on average are socially awkward. I want my kids to be as good at every aspect of life as possible



lemonlyman

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #247 on: December 29, 2017, 09:46:09 AM »
Does anyone use Connections Academy? My state is getting it this year. It's free, online public school. Kids still have teachers, AP classes, etc. It's all just done remotely.


Gin1984

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #248 on: December 29, 2017, 09:50:40 AM »
When a homeschooled kid wants to go to college - how do they prove they have the necessary knowledge and understanding to get in? How does the system of SAT etc work? My limited understanding of the US educational system gives me the impression there are a lot of multiple choice tests with automical scoring? Do you cover all topics (biology, history, social science...) or just the ones where it is easy to do standardized tests? In Norway, you would have to go through the exams for all topics. To ensure that the student understands (not just is able to gulp up facts) many of the exams are verbal, and none of the others are multiple choice. For science, you would also have to provide proof of a set number of experiments, and the examination board will ask detailed questions to find out how much you have really understood. The example of the old test that someone linked to here is quite interesting in that regard. As a teacher, I could probably not give any of my students top grades based on that test, because the top grades here are reserved for students who show that they understand the topic. I could hardly see a single question that was made to show anything other than rote learning.

Homeschooling is not common in Norway. Partly because we are all blood red commies (according to our Swedish neighbors), and partly because it is very difficult to pass all the exams without going to school.

Where we live, at least, homeschoolers have access to the same standardized tests that the public school students take. The difference is that the homeschool parents pay for the exams (at a neutral, 3rd party site) and grading. The test is administered at an away from home location that has neutral proctors, like for the public school students. Most folks we know who homeschool actually are taking advantage of these tests throughout their children's educations to see if they have any knowledge gaps that need to be filled relative to same-age peers.

Correct.  In our state, homeschoolers are required to take the same standardized tests each year that public school kids take.  When a homeschooled kid finishes high school, the parent (a/k/a 'Administrator') of that homeschool issues a transcript and diploma, same as any private or public school.  Homeschooled kids take the same SAT test with everyone else, and then apply to college using their homeschool transcript and diploma.  From what I have read, colleges see it all the time.  I haven't heard of any difficulties with the college application process.
And what evidence does the parent have to show proving the student mastered the knowledge within each class that was graded?  What evidence does the parent show of their own competency to review the student's knowledge? 

These are good questions. I think you what you are really asking is, what is our basis to trust that the parent teacher (a) knows what they are doing, and (b) is being honest with their assessment of their kid. The short answer is -- we don't.  The long answer is -- you can't know or regulate such a thing with a homeschool system. There just aren't the resources to do it.  For this reason, I believe that many college admission offices put more weight on standardized testing than on grades for homeschool student applicants. 

Anecdote time!!  Just because a kid graduates public or private high school is also no proof that they have mastered the material they studied.  DH (longtime college professor) had a small handful of students each year in his science classes who could not do simple arithmetic.  I'm not talking calculus here. I'm talking questions like "What is 7 percent of 200?"  There was one student in particular that DH worked with very intensively to get his math up to scratch. (My hat is off to that guy. Most in that position dropped out of the class, but he didn't.  He dug in, and made up the ground.  Imagine -- with that drive -- what he could have done if he'd had a good education along the way!). The student honestly had no idea that he didn't know these things. He had gotten average to good grades in math in high school.

How on earth does this happen???  I can only conclude that the schools these kids attended aren't checking to see if the basics have been mastered, or not being honest about testing/grades. 

I don't think homeschool parents have any more incentive than public or private school teachers to inflate grades or "pass" students along.   Probably less.
They do have a fiscal incentive in high school because grades can affect scholarship money.   Then there was original issue, that parents don't always know why something needs to be taught.  Though I total believe your anecdote but my belief is the kids learn arithmetic and then get told their calculator for the next ten years and lose it.

ETA:  As someone who has experience with SATs and GREs and their correlation to good grades in college, the idea that schools would more heavily weigh them is inane.  They have a low correlation.  You need both grades and test scores to statistically get a high correlation with college success.  Which bring me back to the issue and why some of the private college I know, don't accept home school high schoolers (again, those without an AA).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 09:55:29 AM by Gin1984 »

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Re: Prove to me why anti-homeschooling attitudes are OK.
« Reply #249 on: December 29, 2017, 09:52:49 AM »
My 2 cents from personal experience. Homeschooled children on average are socially awkward. I want my kids to be as good at every aspect of life as possible

I agree that a fair number of HS kids are socially awkward (while a great number are socially unawkward, and far more adept than most conventionally-schooled kids I've hung with).

A lot of our kids that left the system did so with a diagnosed disability that includes social impairment. All the years of sitting in classrooms with people their age isn't going to "cure" their disability, so we place them in environments in which they can thrive, while experiencing a much wider range of social opportunities. They continue to have neurological differences that impact their social ways, but they are now happy, well, supported, connected, and having fun while learning.
I am well and happy, and doing a series of brief forum breaks as part of self-care :)