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Author Topic: Political Leanings of Mustachians?  (Read 55493 times)

jodelino

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #150 on: January 14, 2015, 04:33:00 PM »
The Political Compass places me at left/libertarian.

Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.15

midweststache

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #151 on: January 14, 2015, 05:00:47 PM »
Quote
Posted by: LucyBIT
« on: Today at 03:51:21 PM » Insert Quote
Economic Left/Right: -8.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.13

Theoretically right on the border of Anarcho-Communism and Anarcho-Socialism, or in other words, almost the exact opposite of Mitt Romney.

Can I join the kum-bay-ah circle?

Everyone is welcome in the Kum Ba Yah circle! :)

kkbmustang

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #152 on: January 14, 2015, 05:06:28 PM »
I'm not where I thought I'd be at all.

*Buries Face in Hands*

MustardTiger

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #153 on: January 14, 2015, 05:08:03 PM »
Mine was right in the same area as most of the others, green quadrant just lower than the dalai lama.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2015, 06:13:16 AM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
Think again.
unconditional basic income
I don't believe in welfare.

midweststache

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2015, 06:34:38 AM »
Quote
Posted by: Schaefer Light
« on: Today at 06:13:16 AM » Insert Quote
Quote from: FliXFantatier on January 14, 2015, 11:46:46 PM
Quote from: Beric01 on January 14, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
Think again.
unconditional basic income
I don't believe in welfare.

Does that include the hidden welfare state? http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2013/05/29/the_hidden_welfare_state_is_regressive_530.html

GuitarStv

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2015, 06:49:54 AM »
Being on the left doesn't mean you against a free market.  It often just means that you want a few controls in place to prevent catastrophic swings (like banking and investment controls for example), and programs to provide help to the poorest in the country.

thd7t

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2015, 06:59:06 AM »
Well, I came in at -7 and -6.97.  It's well within the norm on the Mustachian Libertarian scale (TM).  Seems like everyone is on that side of the line.  Definitely more to the left than most, though.

rionorte

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2015, 01:55:49 PM »
I prefer the term minarchist to describe my politics.

NICE!

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2015, 02:48:58 PM »
So, it looks like I'm the only "mutualist" here. Never heard of the term, and I don't think it is completely accurate in my case (I'm not anti-investing or absentee ownership), but I think it will appeal to some people in the thread. I'll just throw this link down for your perusal:

www.mutualist.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_%28economic_theory%29

senecando

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #160 on: January 16, 2015, 08:11:07 AM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
Think again.
unconditional basic income

Or, right libertarian Milton Friedman's favorite, the negative income tax.

GetItRight

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #161 on: January 16, 2015, 08:32:32 AM »
Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

I don't think you understand what a free market is. Freedom is the absence of regulation. Regulation is the threat of violence.

On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Pooperman

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #162 on: January 16, 2015, 09:01:54 AM »
Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

I don't think you understand what a free market is. Freedom is the absence of regulation. Regulation is the threat of violence.

On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Hence regulation! Letting capitalism run free results in child labor, abhorrent working conditions, and 15+ hour days. Regulations prevent this from happening. The Industrial Revolution (~1800-1900) was not a fun time to be a laborer. The point of the free market is to decide the prices based on supply and demand, not based on it being pegged to something. Saying that workers have to be above the age of 12, have a work week of 40 hours, and safe working conditions tangentially affects the price of goods and definitely makes the workers' lives better. No one WANTS child labor, but take away regulations, and you will have child labor again.

Zikoris

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #163 on: January 16, 2015, 09:08:49 AM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.

I think "fiscally conservative/right, socially liberal/left" is really common among Mustachians, myself included. I'm "leftist" in that I support universal health care, gay marriage, abortion and birth control rights/access, etc, but totally conservative/right about anything with $ signs attached.

caliq

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #164 on: January 16, 2015, 09:20:53 AM »
Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

I don't think you understand what a free market is. Freedom is the absence of regulation. Regulation is the threat of violence.

On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Hence regulation! Letting capitalism run free results in child labor, abhorrent working conditions, and 15+ hour days. Regulations prevent this from happening. The Industrial Revolution (~1800-1900) was not a fun time to be a laborer. The point of the free market is to decide the prices based on supply and demand, not based on it being pegged to something. Saying that workers have to be above the age of 12, have a work week of 40 hours, and safe working conditions tangentially affects the price of goods and definitely makes the workers' lives better. No one WANTS child labor, but take away regulations, and you will have child labor again.

+1

And we have not evolved as a society -- regulations in developed countries have just forced companies to move these activities overseas, and import the products back.  All you have to do is look at Walmart's profits to know that there are many, many, many people in this country that don't give a damn about where their consumer goods come from, as long as they're cheap.   Or that don't make enough money to be able to consider anything but the bottom line in their own individual wallet. 

It's not that the majority desires child labor, or awful air, or 15 hour work days.  The majority desires cheap goods and doesn't give much thought to how companies get them so cheap.  Which is why, absent regulation, companies with despicable practices quickly overtake the free market. 

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #165 on: January 16, 2015, 09:53:56 AM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
Think again.
unconditional basic income

Or, right libertarian Milton Friedman's favorite, the negative income tax.
Not necessarily. There are a lot of different Models, the most difference usually in where the money comes from.

Quote
Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?
Just one example. Back in the good ol' days of free market (Charles Dickens gives an impression), a bill by the english government that children should not be allowed to work more then 10(12?) hours a day in the wool factories was strongly opposed as a supression of the free market.
In every other occupation they still could do longer. After all, it was to support their family!

Timmmy

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #166 on: January 16, 2015, 10:46:10 AM »
Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

I don't think you understand what a free market is. Freedom is the absence of regulation. Regulation is the threat of violence.

On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Hence regulation! Letting capitalism run free results in child labor, abhorrent working conditions, and 15+ hour days. Regulations prevent this from happening. The Industrial Revolution (~1800-1900) was not a fun time to be a laborer. The point of the free market is to decide the prices based on supply and demand, not based on it being pegged to something. Saying that workers have to be above the age of 12, have a work week of 40 hours, and safe working conditions tangentially affects the price of goods and definitely makes the workers' lives better. No one WANTS child labor, but take away regulations, and you will have child labor again.

The things you describe are not exclusive to free capitalism.  Those things are happening all over the world in non capitalist societies currently.  The elimination of those things happens naturally or by law as the country develops.  Sometimes you can force the issue with legislation but if the culture still supports it will simply go underground.  Capitalism isn't the problem that needs fixing, it's cultures that support child labor that need to be changed IMO.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #167 on: January 16, 2015, 11:50:41 AM »
The things you describe are not exclusive to free capitalism.  Those things are happening all over the world in non capitalist societies currently.  The elimination of those things happens naturally or by law as the country develops.  Sometimes you can force the issue with legislation but if the culture still supports it will simply go underground.  Capitalism isn't the problem that needs fixing, it's cultures that support child labor that need to be changed IMO.
Legislation that stops child labor or pollution is not free market.
That other systems have it too has nothing to do with it.

libertarian4321

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2015, 12:12:43 PM »
Surprisingly, I came out as Libertarian.

Didn't see that one coming. :)

thd7t

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2015, 01:21:54 PM »
Surprisingly, I came out as Libertarian.

Didn't see that one coming. :)
Ha!  In all seriousness, did anyone on here come out as Authoritarian?  I feel like there's a range on the left-to-right spectrum, but everyone falls below the center on that aspect!

Spork

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2015, 01:33:56 PM »
The things you describe are not exclusive to free capitalism.  Those things are happening all over the world in non capitalist societies currently.  The elimination of those things happens naturally or by law as the country develops.  Sometimes you can force the issue with legislation but if the culture still supports it will simply go underground.  Capitalism isn't the problem that needs fixing, it's cultures that support child labor that need to be changed IMO.
Legislation that stops child labor or pollution is not free market.
That other systems have it too has nothing to do with it.

Oh good grief.  Capitalism or socialism or really any-ism does not create child labor.  Awful economic conditions create child labor. 
Regulation does not end child labor, either -- any more than regulation can get rid of drugs, prostitution, abortion or whatever cause you may champion.

No one particularly wants their kid working in a factory (or worse: a brothel).  These are things that arise out of desperation.  Making a law that makes it illegal only makes the desperate more so and makes it riskier.  They move from the factory down the street to some where much worse.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2015, 02:10:28 PM »
Oh good grief.  Capitalism or socialism or really any-ism does not create child labor.  Awful economic conditions create child labor. 
Regulation does not end child labor, either -- any more than regulation can get rid of drugs, prostitution, abortion or whatever cause you may champion.

No one particularly wants their kid working in a factory (or worse: a brothel).  These are things that arise out of desperation.  Making a law that makes it illegal only makes the desperate more so and makes it riskier.  They move from the factory down the street to some where much worse.
I wont comment on this and instrad just point to the fact that this is totally not the point we were talking about.

But lets say it so: In the world in the last 4000 years up until today in free cpaitalism there was/woudl be child labor. Laws against it reduced it (provably btw)

GetItRight

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2015, 02:35:50 PM »
On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Hence regulation! Letting capitalism run free results in child labor, abhorrent working conditions, and 15+ hour days. Regulations prevent this from happening. The Industrial Revolution (~1800-1900) was not a fun time to be a laborer. The point of the free market is to decide the prices based on supply and demand, not based on it being pegged to something. Saying that workers have to be above the age of 12, have a work week of 40 hours, and safe working conditions tangentially affects the price of goods and definitely makes the workers' lives better. No one WANTS child labor, but take away regulations, and you will have child labor again.

So what were working conditions and child labor like before the industrial revolution? Do you think the days were shorter and child labor was not used? Conditions were better, you think?

The industrial revolution came about in large part as farming was made more efficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolution Techniques to increase yield from a given acreage were discovered, such as crop rotation and better irrigation methods. Better plows, harnesses, and animal use was invented such as harnesses which allowed oxen to pull a plow across the strong part of their shoulders rather than choking around their neck, allowing more output per animal. Transportation infrastructure was expanded and improved to allow farther and more efficient distribution of food.

These free market innovations allowed the industrial revolution to occur. The majority of people no longer had to work 15+ hour days on farms just to produce enough food to avoid starvation. What do you think those children did before working in factories or as chimney sweeps and so forth in the industrial revolution? They worked on farms and in fields! If you've never done any work on a farm you may have some romanticized city folk view of it, but I assure you farm labor is hard work, and particularly backbreaking and laborious before modern machinery. Farm injuries too are particularly gruesome.

As the free market advances efficient means of production and automation of labor it frees people to pursue other endeavors which advance society as a whole. Hence the industrial revolution. Child labor does not exist today in developed countries because they have (relative) wealth. Parents do not need an army of children to work the farm and make enough food to survive, they don't need children to work jobs to pay for food. The agricultural and industrial revolution are to thank for this. Government did not end child labor, child labor was a thing of the past when government got around to the Fair Labor Standards Act, which was in large part supported by the KKK and labor unions to keep blacks out of the work force. Furthermore, child labor laws prevent teens from becoming gainfully employed and developing useful skills and experience as they are unemployable at any wage. I assure you, government is not doing and has never done anything to make people better off in this regard.
http://mises.org/library/trouble-child-labor-laws
http://nypost.com/2013/09/17/why-racists-love-the-minimum-wage-laws/

If no one wants child labor then it won't just magically happen. You are skipping the most important part which is how or why it mass child labor would occur, it's absurd to just say "child labor doesn't happen because government", and ignore all history, facts and logical thinking. Prior to the 1900s child labor was common because businesses had insufficient labor and parents had insufficient money. This is not the case today, for reasons I've stated.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:38:30 PM by GetItRight »

iamlindoro

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #173 on: January 16, 2015, 02:45:47 PM »
Saw subject and page count.  Came in expecting shit show.  Was not disappointed.

Spork

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2015, 02:50:14 PM »
Oh good grief.  Capitalism or socialism or really any-ism does not create child labor.  Awful economic conditions create child labor. 
Regulation does not end child labor, either -- any more than regulation can get rid of drugs, prostitution, abortion or whatever cause you may champion.

No one particularly wants their kid working in a factory (or worse: a brothel).  These are things that arise out of desperation.  Making a law that makes it illegal only makes the desperate more so and makes it riskier.  They move from the factory down the street to some where much worse.
I wont comment on this and instrad just point to the fact that this is totally not the point we were talking about.

But lets say it so: In the world in the last 4000 years up until today in free cpaitalism there was/woudl be child labor. Laws against it reduced it (provably btw)

Or moved it underground.

It *really* got reduced when the great depression hit.  Child labor paid less than adult labor.  Adults out of work had to compete and suddenly were willing to take less for their labor -- and pushed the children out of work.

Also: in the world in the last 4000 years up until today in very controlled economies there was/would be child labor.  Laws have been passed and it still exists.  Just look to child prostitution in Thailand.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #175 on: January 16, 2015, 02:51:25 PM »
Oh good grief.  Capitalism or socialism or really any-ism does not create child labor.  Awful economic conditions create child labor. 
Regulation does not end child labor, either -- any more than regulation can get rid of drugs, prostitution, abortion or whatever cause you may champion.

No one particularly wants their kid working in a factory (or worse: a brothel).  These are things that arise out of desperation.  Making a law that makes it illegal only makes the desperate more so and makes it riskier.  They move from the factory down the street to some where much worse.
But lets say it so: In the world in the last 4000 years up until today in free cpaitalism there was/woudl be child labor. Laws against it reduced it (provably btw)

The laws may have made it illegal, but unless a law can fix the underlying problem (that that child/child's family is so desperate that child labor is going on), is that even a GOOD thing? You just made it so that kid isn't earning money, without fixing the underlying cause?

iris lily

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #176 on: January 16, 2015, 02:56:39 PM »
Surprisingly, I came out as Libertarian.

Didn't see that one coming. :)

ya but--right, centrist, or lefty lib?

FIPurpose

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #177 on: January 16, 2015, 03:09:22 PM »
Well before taking the test, I described myself as a Right Centrist, but came out pretty much in the smack dab middle. I guess that's why Lefties think I'm a Republican and why Conservatives think I'm a Lefty. Makes perfect sense now. I usually stayed away from the Centrist name because it felt like I was saying I was apathetic politically which is not true, but perhaps I'll just have to fully embrace it now.

Pooperman

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #178 on: January 16, 2015, 03:14:12 PM »
On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

Explain how that would be? Who wants endless pollution? Who wants child labor? Is there really enough of a majority desiring those things that anyone who implemented them would prosper in a free market?

Hence regulation! Letting capitalism run free results in child labor, abhorrent working conditions, and 15+ hour days. Regulations prevent this from happening. The Industrial Revolution (~1800-1900) was not a fun time to be a laborer. The point of the free market is to decide the prices based on supply and demand, not based on it being pegged to something. Saying that workers have to be above the age of 12, have a work week of 40 hours, and safe working conditions tangentially affects the price of goods and definitely makes the workers' lives better. No one WANTS child labor, but take away regulations, and you will have child labor again.

So what were working conditions and child labor like before the industrial revolution? Do you think the days were shorter and child labor was not used? Conditions were better, you think?

The industrial revolution came about in large part as farming was made more efficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolution Techniques to increase yield from a given acreage were discovered, such as crop rotation and better irrigation methods. Better plows, harnesses, and animal use was invented such as harnesses which allowed oxen to pull a plow across the strong part of their shoulders rather than choking around their neck, allowing more output per animal. Transportation infrastructure was expanded and improved to allow farther and more efficient distribution of food.

These free market innovations allowed the industrial revolution to occur. The majority of people no longer had to work 15+ hour days on farms just to produce enough food to avoid starvation. What do you think those children did before working in factories or as chimney sweeps and so forth in the industrial revolution? They worked on farms and in fields! If you've never done any work on a farm you may have some romanticized city folk view of it, but I assure you farm labor is hard work, and particularly backbreaking and laborious before modern machinery. Farm injuries too are particularly gruesome.

As the free market advances efficient means of production and automation of labor it frees people to pursue other endeavors which advance society as a whole. Hence the industrial revolution. Child labor does not exist today in developed countries because they have (relative) wealth. Parents do not need an army of children to work the farm and make enough food to survive, they don't need children to work jobs to pay for food. The agricultural and industrial revolution are to thank for this. Government did not end child labor, child labor was a thing of the past when government got around to the Fair Labor Standards Act, which was in large part supported by the KKK and labor unions to keep blacks out of the work force. Furthermore, child labor laws prevent teens from becoming gainfully employed and developing useful skills and experience as they are unemployable at any wage. I assure you, government is not doing and has never done anything to make people better off in this regard.
http://mises.org/library/trouble-child-labor-laws
http://nypost.com/2013/09/17/why-racists-love-the-minimum-wage-laws/

If no one wants child labor then it won't just magically happen. You are skipping the most important part which is how or why it mass child labor would occur, it's absurd to just say "child labor doesn't happen because government", and ignore all history, facts and logical thinking. Prior to the 1900s child labor was common because businesses had insufficient labor and parents had insufficient money. This is not the case today, for reasons I've stated.

In the free market, the one who makes a good the cheapest will take over unless their competitors adapt. Sounds good. Problem is, child labor IS cheaper. Polluting IS cheaper. Pushing wage costs onto government programs IS cheaper than paying your workers enough. Result? Cheaper products that dominate the market. To say that people will spend their money elsewhere is silly when we have Walmart as an example. To expect corporations to do the right thing (environmentally, socially, whatever) is a false hope. They won't. Regulations are there to force companies to do the right thing (minimum wage laws, environmental protections, FDIC, etc). That's not to say corporations are evil. They aren't. They just need a little direction to keep them honest.

Cressida

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #179 on: January 16, 2015, 10:42:11 PM »
In the free market, the one who makes a good the cheapest will take over unless their competitors adapt. Sounds good. Problem is, child labor IS cheaper. Polluting IS cheaper. Pushing wage costs onto government programs IS cheaper than paying your workers enough. Result? Cheaper products that dominate the market. To say that people will spend their money elsewhere is silly when we have Walmart as an example. To expect corporations to do the right thing (environmentally, socially, whatever) is a false hope. They won't. Regulations are there to force companies to do the right thing (minimum wage laws, environmental protections, FDIC, etc). That's not to say corporations are evil. They aren't. They just need a little direction to keep them honest.

+1 well said.

Frugal_Red

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #180 on: January 17, 2015, 02:54:50 AM »
Like many others, I selected before I took the test. I self selected as a Left Centralist where as the test put me more in the middle of Centralist and Left Libertarian.

I have a screen shot of a similar test I took in college, I have gotten a little bit more conservative economically but I am just the same socially.  Interesting what age and increased financial interests can do...


GetItRight

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #181 on: January 17, 2015, 07:48:48 AM »
In the free market, the one who makes a good the cheapest will take over unless their competitors adapt. Sounds good. Problem is, child labor IS cheaper. Polluting IS cheaper. Pushing wage costs onto government programs IS cheaper than paying your workers enough. Result? Cheaper products that dominate the market. To say that people will spend their money elsewhere is silly when we have Walmart as an example.

Examples? Where are these masses of children looking for work? Where are the parents encouraging their children to find jobs or trying to find jobs for them? Some examples, facts, theories? Define children in this context as preteen, as many teenagers do want to work but are not allowed to and face severe punishment if they do. You can't just say without government violence children would be working in factories instead of adults. Give some information or a well thought out theory, a one liner gives no credibility to your claim and shows you haven't put much thought into it.

I'll provide another counter point to your groundless claim, since you seem to have ignored most of what I've already said. The unemployment rate in the US is somewhere between 6% and 23%. The government figure of 6% is absurd, another outright lie by government. I suspect the real unemployment rate is somewhere in the range between 11% U6 number which mainstream media usually presents and the 23% Shadowstats number which mainstream media has discussed to some extent.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/11/john-williams-shadowstats-com-december-payroll-jobs-report-unemployment-rate/

If you call it 17%, that is still a very large portion of the population that is unemployed. It does not include children. What jobs are children going to be doing in the US or any other developed first world country with wealth? What employers want to hire children when there are a tremendous amount of unemployed people with more skill, experience, and physical ability? How will children compete in the workforce with adults? What parents are so tight on money that they have no other option but to find their children a job (not cutting grass or washing cars occasionally, a real full time job)? What jobs would these children be doing? Examples please, or at least some real logical theorizing.

It simply would not happen, child labor was already disappearing when the FLSA was forced upon the masses, manufacturing was becoming more efficient and more automated, families were sending their young children to school instead of to work because they could afford to and with less labor input required per unit of product output education was viewed as more important for future jobs.

To expect corporations to do the right thing (environmentally, socially, whatever) is a false hope. They won't. Regulations are there to force companies to do the right thing (minimum wage laws, environmental protections, FDIC, etc). That's not to say corporations are evil. They aren't. They just need a little direction to keep them honest.

An important question to ask is how has the government actually helped with the alleged goals?

Minimum wage laws came about from the KKK and labor unions to price blacks out of the labor market. I've already provided links referencing this, and minimum wage laws are still keeping you black men in particular disproportionately unemployed and unemployable, but also harmed by these laws are most young adults in general who have far greater difficulty finding their first jobs and gaining the experience and skills required to advance their careers and earnings. In a high unemployment rate market older and more experienced workers benefit tremendously from minimum wage laws. Given a minimum wage greater than the value a person can provide, an employer will either eliminate the job and pass that work on to other existing employees or eliminate that service or function, automate that job function, and hire a more skilled and versatile worker (generally older) who can also perform other job duties that justify the higher pay. This gives a much greater guarantee that older workers will always have a job if they want one, even if their previous position is eliminated. It's not difficult to see why unions, often composed of members mearning significantly above the minimum wage, always push for a higher minimum wage that would not affect the majority of their members.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/02/union-members-not-minimum-wage-earners-benefit-when-the-minimum-wage-rises

Environmental protections are a subsidy to big business and their lobbyists. Many environmental laws will require a specific technology or product to be used allegedly to reduce the output level of some pollutant. A particular company may be the sole manufacturer of that technology, hold a patent and either prohibit others from manufacturing it or charge significant royalties which allows multiple manufacturers but also higher profits for themselves as well as multiple revenue streams. The laws are a subsidy to big business because it mandates that specific product or technology rather than a more sensible method of regulation such as putting an upper limit on PPM of specific pollutants and no regulation on how that PPM is achieved. The result is less competition, higher prices (essentially a regressive tax or subsidy), and slowed progress in the development of superior and alternative "green" pollution or emissions reducing devices. There are many cases like this of subsidy to big business under the thin veil of environmentalist. The subsidies to the corn industry, production of corn ethanol (a net negative energy fuel), resultant high fructose corn syrup in just about everything (artificially cheaper than real sugar) resultant from those subsidies... There is so much harm the government does under guise of "environmental protections", so much of it amounts to a regressive tax to subsidize big business.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/07/bill-walker/the-environmental-disaster-called-ethanol/

FDIC? Seriously? Just another subsidy to prop up the rich bankers. I'm surprised you brought this one up, but really, just more government evil harming the masses.
http://www.examiner.com/article/why-we-need-to-shut-down-the-fdic
http://libertarianinvestments.blogspot.com/2011/11/problem-of-fdic.html

It's good that you acknowledge corporations are not evil, government on the other hand is evil. It harms everything it touches and the individuals who cause this destruction are sheltered from any accountability or repercussions for their actions.

Pooperman

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #182 on: January 17, 2015, 08:18:42 AM »
In the free market, the one who makes a good the cheapest will take over unless their competitors adapt. Sounds good. Problem is, child labor IS cheaper. Polluting IS cheaper. Pushing wage costs onto government programs IS cheaper than paying your workers enough. Result? Cheaper products that dominate the market. To say that people will spend their money elsewhere is silly when we have Walmart as an example.

Examples? Where are these masses of children looking for work? Where are the parents encouraging their children to find jobs or trying to find jobs for them? Some examples, facts, theories? Define children in this context as preteen, as many teenagers do want to work but are not allowed to and face severe punishment if they do. You can't just say without government violence children would be working in factories instead of adults. Give some information or a well thought out theory, a one liner gives no credibility to your claim and shows you haven't put much thought into it.

I'll provide another counter point to your groundless claim, since you seem to have ignored most of what I've already said. The unemployment rate in the US is somewhere between 6% and 23%. The government figure of 6% is absurd, another outright lie by government. I suspect the real unemployment rate is somewhere in the range between 11% U6 number which mainstream media usually presents and the 23% Shadowstats number which mainstream media has discussed to some extent.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/11/john-williams-shadowstats-com-december-payroll-jobs-report-unemployment-rate/

If you call it 17%, that is still a very large portion of the population that is unemployed. It does not include children. What jobs are children going to be doing in the US or any other developed first world country with wealth? What employers want to hire children when there are a tremendous amount of unemployed people with more skill, experience, and physical ability? How will children compete in the workforce with adults? What parents are so tight on money that they have no other option but to find their children a job (not cutting grass or washing cars occasionally, a real full time job)? What jobs would these children be doing? Examples please, or at least some real logical theorizing.

It simply would not happen, child labor was already disappearing when the FLSA was forced upon the masses, manufacturing was becoming more efficient and more automated, families were sending their young children to school instead of to work because they could afford to and with less labor input required per unit of product output education was viewed as more important for future jobs.

To expect corporations to do the right thing (environmentally, socially, whatever) is a false hope. They won't. Regulations are there to force companies to do the right thing (minimum wage laws, environmental protections, FDIC, etc). That's not to say corporations are evil. They aren't. They just need a little direction to keep them honest.

An important question to ask is how has the government actually helped with the alleged goals?

Minimum wage laws came about from the KKK and labor unions to price blacks out of the labor market. I've already provided links referencing this, and minimum wage laws are still keeping you black men in particular disproportionately unemployed and unemployable, but also harmed by these laws are most young adults in general who have far greater difficulty finding their first jobs and gaining the experience and skills required to advance their careers and earnings. In a high unemployment rate market older and more experienced workers benefit tremendously from minimum wage laws. Given a minimum wage greater than the value a person can provide, an employer will either eliminate the job and pass that work on to other existing employees or eliminate that service or function, automate that job function, and hire a more skilled and versatile worker (generally older) who can also perform other job duties that justify the higher pay. This gives a much greater guarantee that older workers will always have a job if they want one, even if their previous position is eliminated. It's not difficult to see why unions, often composed of members mearning significantly above the minimum wage, always push for a higher minimum wage that would not affect the majority of their members.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/02/union-members-not-minimum-wage-earners-benefit-when-the-minimum-wage-rises

Environmental protections are a subsidy to big business and their lobbyists. Many environmental laws will require a specific technology or product to be used allegedly to reduce the output level of some pollutant. A particular company may be the sole manufacturer of that technology, hold a patent and either prohibit others from manufacturing it or charge significant royalties which allows multiple manufacturers but also higher profits for themselves as well as multiple revenue streams. The laws are a subsidy to big business because it mandates that specific product or technology rather than a more sensible method of regulation such as putting an upper limit on PPM of specific pollutants and no regulation on how that PPM is achieved. The result is less competition, higher prices (essentially a regressive tax or subsidy), and slowed progress in the development of superior and alternative "green" pollution or emissions reducing devices. There are many cases like this of subsidy to big business under the thin veil of environmentalist. The subsidies to the corn industry, production of corn ethanol (a net negative energy fuel), resultant high fructose corn syrup in just about everything (artificially cheaper than real sugar) resultant from those subsidies... There is so much harm the government does under guise of "environmental protections", so much of it amounts to a regressive tax to subsidize big business.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/07/bill-walker/the-environmental-disaster-called-ethanol/

FDIC? Seriously? Just another subsidy to prop up the rich bankers. I'm surprised you brought this one up, but really, just more government evil harming the masses.
http://www.examiner.com/article/why-we-need-to-shut-down-the-fdic
http://libertarianinvestments.blogspot.com/2011/11/problem-of-fdic.html

It's good that you acknowledge corporations are not evil, government on the other hand is evil. It harms everything it touches and the individuals who cause this destruction are sheltered from any accountability or repercussions for their actions.

Corporations aren't evil, and neither is government. We're arguing left vs right libertarian and it's a stupid waste of this thread to do it. FDIC was there to prevent bank panics that plagued the earlier depressions in the last 1800s. It's a stabilizing factor. You know what was a "subsidy to prop up rich bankers"? Repealing Glass-Steagall. That single regulation prevented having a Great Recession for over 60 years; and yet within 10 of it being repealed, shit hits the fan. Now, again, we're arguing right vs left libertarian. No one wins with opinions. I see what I want in the data, as do you.

iris lily

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #183 on: January 17, 2015, 09:01:43 AM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.

I think "fiscally conservative/right, socially liberal/left" is really common among Mustachians, myself included. I'm "leftist" in that I support universal health care, gay marriage, abortion and birth control rights/access, etc, but totally conservative/right about anything with $ signs attached.
dude! Universal health healthcare comes with all kinds of $$$
signs attached!

bacchi

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #184 on: January 17, 2015, 10:29:33 AM »
FDIC was there to prevent bank panics that plagued the earlier depressions in the last 1800s. It's a stabilizing factor.

It was actually formed from the Great Depression but you're right. Abolishing the FDIC is a Bad Idea. We've seen the result without it -- why repeat history (except to be ideologically pure)?

Ganon91

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #185 on: January 17, 2015, 01:06:36 PM »
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.46


Looks like I fit in around here.

SunshineAZ

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #186 on: January 17, 2015, 02:00:03 PM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.

I think "fiscally conservative/right, socially liberal/left" is really common among Mustachians, myself included. I'm "leftist" in that I support universal health care, gay marriage, abortion and birth control rights/access, etc, but totally conservative/right about anything with $ signs attached.
This.

I have been lurking here for a while, but I just registered and thought taking this test would be interesting to see how I compare to others here.  Surprisingly, I too was in the left/libertarian region.  As you said above, I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal, and your comment is spot on.  However, in reality, politically I tend to lean more right although I am registered independent because I don't want to be associated with either party.  :-P

Zikoris

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #187 on: January 17, 2015, 05:36:13 PM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.

I think "fiscally conservative/right, socially liberal/left" is really common among Mustachians, myself included. I'm "leftist" in that I support universal health care, gay marriage, abortion and birth control rights/access, etc, but totally conservative/right about anything with $ signs attached.
dude! Universal health healthcare comes with all kinds of $$$
signs attached!

It comes out of taxes, but I don't think Canada's taxing are ridiculously high. I definitely don't pay much tax myself.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2015, 04:42:21 AM »
Environmental protections are a subsidy to big business and their lobbyists. Many environmental laws will require a specific technology or product to be used allegedly to reduce the output level of some pollutant. A particular company may be the sole manufacturer of that technology, hold a patent and either prohibit others from manufacturing it or charge significant royalties which allows multiple manufacturers but also higher profits for themselves as well as multiple revenue streams. The laws are a subsidy to big business because it mandates that specific product or technology rather than a more sensible method of regulation such as putting an upper limit on PPM of specific pollutants and no regulation on how that PPM is achieved. The result is less competition, higher prices (essentially a regressive tax or subsidy), and slowed progress in the development of superior and alternative "green" pollution or emissions reducing devices. There are many cases like this of subsidy to big business under the thin veil of environmentalist. The subsidies to the corn industry, production of corn ethanol (a net negative energy fuel), resultant high fructose corn syrup in just about everything (artificially cheaper than real sugar) resultant from those subsidies... There is so much harm the government does under guise of "environmental protections", so much of it amounts to a regressive tax to subsidize big business.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/07/bill-walker/the-environmental-disaster-called-ethanol/

Your point about micromanaging the specific techniques for environmental protection is correct, but it seems tangential to the discussion of whether regulations are necessary.  Pointing out ridiculous boondoggles like the ethanol subsidy does not show that environmental regulations are not needed.  (It does, however, show that bought-and-paid-for politicians will use the power of government to reward their benefactors.)  Businesses will externalize as many costs as they can, and, absent regulation, environmental costs are extremely easy to externalize.  See: mountaintop removal coal mining, greenhouse gas emissions, fracking, the Freedom Industries chemical spill, Duke Power's coal ash spill, the Keystone pipeline, etc., etc., etc.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2015, 05:52:28 AM »
+1 

Plus when environmental degradation causes economic activity in other areas, the GDP looks good: bad roads = business for car repairs, polluted water = more home swimming pools, etc. 

Your point about micromanaging the specific techniques for environmental protection is correct, but it seems tangential to the discussion of whether regulations are necessary.  Pointing out ridiculous boondoggles like the ethanol subsidy does not show that environmental regulations are not needed.  (It does, however, show that bought-and-paid-for politicians will use the power of government to reward their benefactors.)  Businesses will externalize as many costs as they can, and, absent regulation, environmental costs are extremely easy to externalize.  See: mountaintop removal coal mining, greenhouse gas emissions, fracking, the Freedom Industries chemical spill, Duke Power's coal ash spill, the Keystone pipeline, etc., etc., etc.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2015, 07:41:47 AM »
+1 

Plus when environmental degradation causes economic activity in other areas, the GDP looks good: bad roads = business for car repairs, polluted water = more home swimming pools, etc. 

Your point about micromanaging the specific techniques for environmental protection is correct, but it seems tangential to the discussion of whether regulations are necessary.  Pointing out ridiculous boondoggles like the ethanol subsidy does not show that environmental regulations are not needed.  (It does, however, show that bought-and-paid-for politicians will use the power of government to reward their benefactors.)  Businesses will externalize as many costs as they can, and, absent regulation, environmental costs are extremely easy to externalize.  See: mountaintop removal coal mining, greenhouse gas emissions, fracking, the Freedom Industries chemical spill, Duke Power's coal ash spill, the Keystone pipeline, etc., etc., etc.
I always say the best you can do for the GDP is to steal a tank, crah a few houses, blow the tank into the air, injure a few and let yourself cought. This way increase in GDP through military repleacement, house building (+interior), chemical industry, medical industry, judicial system and jails.
You can easily make a 1 million GDP increase with a single action! Also a prisoner costs most then a minimum wage worker = long time increase in GDP, too.

Left

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2015, 09:28:17 AM »
Lol I'm a left lib as well, seems like a lot on here are. Wonder what draws us to MMM?

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2015, 12:09:11 PM »
Lol I'm a left lib as well, seems like a lot on here are. Wonder what draws us to MMM?
Freedom from money (to have to work for it) = left and freedom to (do things you like) = lib

ToughMother

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2015, 12:33:01 PM »
Just like so many others...


« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 11:15:15 AM by ToughMother »

FIPurpose

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2015, 01:31:00 PM »
I'd like to see a break down of these questions and how they affect each number. Basically everyone has ended up on the Libertarian side of things, but I've heard of several on this forum that want more business regulation. That to me would say a left authoritarian. Or at the very least, more of a centrist. Perhaps I need to reread the descriptions...

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #195 on: January 18, 2015, 03:35:29 PM »
I think you have a business-centered view of libertarian. Originally it meant free people, and that means check and balances on the state.
That libertarian has something to do with business or free market is a new (and mostly US only) interpretation.
for example: No regulation on the selling of weed is libertarian, but not because of business opportunities but because people should be free to use somthing that doesnt hurt.

Spork

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #196 on: January 18, 2015, 05:08:50 PM »

That libertarian has something to do with business or free market is a new (and mostly US only) interpretation.

What we (in the US) call libertarian now used to be called Liberalism -- now called 'classical liberalism' once social liberalism started.

Darn you dictionary: stop changing.

rocketpj

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #197 on: January 18, 2015, 11:27:52 PM »
I'd like to see a break down of these questions and how they affect each number. Basically everyone has ended up on the Libertarian side of things, but I've heard of several on this forum that want more business regulation. That to me would say a left authoritarian. Or at the very least, more of a centrist. Perhaps I need to reread the descriptions...

Businesses, or at least corporations, cannot exist without a significant state to support them - contract enforcement, all the laws and regulations that make it possible for thousands or millions of people to invest in a corp. and have a modicum of trust that their investment will be respected and rewarded appropriately.  Without rigorous regulation that falls apart quickly - hell, it is pretty shaky even with regulation.  Without a centrally regulated system of enforcement 'business' relationships start to break down fairly quickly once beyond the town level.  Pro-business is rarely an actual libertarian point of view, though for some reason that gets confused in the US.

NICE!

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #198 on: January 19, 2015, 12:21:37 AM »
Businesses, or at least corporations, cannot exist without a significant state to support them - contract enforcement, all the laws and regulations that make it possible for thousands or millions of people to invest in a corp. and have a modicum of trust that their investment will be respected and rewarded appropriately.  Without rigorous regulation that falls apart quickly - hell, it is pretty shaky even with regulation.  Without a centrally regulated system of enforcement 'business' relationships start to break down fairly quickly once beyond the town level.  Pro-business is rarely an actual libertarian point of view, though for some reason that gets confused in the US.

Exactly. I'm not pro-business or pro-government. I'm anti-concentrated power. I guess this is why I landed just right of center and almost all the way at the bottom. That tells you (accurately, in my opinion) that I'm more suspicious of government than I am of business (but still suspicious of corporations large enough to buy themselves welfare & create barriers for competitors). I find this to be a realistic point of view as most of the death and destruction in human history was perpetrated by the state.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #199 on: January 19, 2015, 12:59:53 AM »
Exactly. I'm not pro-business or pro-government. I'm anti-concentrated power. I guess this is why I landed just right of center and almost all the way at the bottom. That tells you (accurately, in my opinion) that I'm more suspicious of government than I am of business (but still suspicious of corporations large enough to buy themselves welfare & create barriers for competitors). I find this to be a realistic point of view as most of the death and destruction in human history was perpetrated by the state.
Now, here we get a definition problem again, because state in current sense of meaning is only applicable for the last ~200 years ;)

But what I wanted to say is that you shoudl probably read about and from the only woman with a Nobel price in economics - Elinor Ostrom - about Commons.
That is (also) about democratic control of ressources and "how to do things" in a "third" way. Its not easy to explain, esp. i short, so you have to do the reading yourself ;)