Author Topic: Poker as a side hustle?  (Read 10562 times)

Omy

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Poker as a side hustle?
« on: December 30, 2018, 06:39:24 PM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?

Zola.

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2018, 02:30:50 AM »
A terrible idea, generally.

I consider myself a good poker player, but playing online in cash games is pure gambling, and nothing more than a roll of the dice.

You can play in a measured, sensible way, but you can get no proper reads/tells off the people you are playing against and many of the players are just wreckless, or will beat you with stupid hands they shouldn't be playing anyway!

Poker in person, much better if the players are at least at a certain level.

Poker is a hobby for me, but I only play it with friends really once a quarter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:33:50 AM by Zola. »

Omy

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2018, 06:43:06 AM »
She goes to a casino to play, so I think it's live (not online). She's been playing (and tracking her results) for years and says she has consistently improved her hourly rate. I enjoy the game and am decent at it, so it's tempting to think that I could make a little money at something I like to do. But I also tend to be a wimp when it comes to risking money. Is there anybody out here who is doing this (or a similarly odd/potentially risky) side hustle and bringing in money consistently?

big_slacker

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 06:56:12 AM »
Former poker dealer here.

It take a *LOT* of work to become a good poker player capable of turning a profit over time in say 3/6 or 5/10 games. You can start online with a fairly small bankroll and there are a lot of books, courses, etc available from free. But ultimately you have to have the right type of mind for it, discipline and a lot of experience.

I do agree with tracking, it's a numbers game and requires brutal honesty about results be successful. Most gamblers consciously or subconsciously inflate their success.

Personally I think there are way easier ways to make $30/hr.

Omy

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2018, 08:10:50 AM »
Big_slacker, did you enjoy dealing? Do you mind sharing how lucrative it is (or isn't)? I've been curious about that as a "retirement" gig if I find I have too much time on my hands. I

GoHokies

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2018, 08:38:18 AM »
Wow a topic I am actually qualified to talk about on here! How exciting.  I've been playing live and online cash as a side hustle for 3 years now. I have a full time job and play poker mainly online to supplement my income.  My hourly depends on the specific game, including how soft the game is, what are the stakes, what is the rake, etc. I would say I average around $40/hour over my large sample size, but as you will find out if you ever play poker for an extended period of time, you can have long periods of time where you are breakeven or even losing money and other times where you are crushing it.  Over large samples (we are talking hundreds of thousands of hands to have a significant sample size in the poker world), if you are a solid poker player playing in good games, you absolutely will win money. 

However, all this being said, I would generally advise people not to get into poker as a side hustle or as a main form of income. This is due to the following:

- To succeed at decent stakes (buy ins of $200+ online and $500+ live), you need to have put in a ton of time and study into the mathematics of poker and theory of poker (including game theory study). In addition, you simply need to have put in a lot of volume to have intuition in how to exploit other players' tendencies. This can come really quickly to you if you are gifted in strategy games and gifted in math, but you will still need to put in a lot of effort here regardless.
- Online poker in the US is not in the best state right now.  Running an online poker business in the vast majority of states is illegal (I believe it is only legal in Nevada, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey).  There are offshore sites that you can play on online in other states, but you run the risk at any point the government could come crack down on these sites, despite it being unlikely they do so (it is legal for you to play on these offshore sites, but not legal for the businesses to offer online poker which is an important distinction). 
- Live poker in the US requires you be in state that has legalized gambling, obviously.  You also need to live near a casino.  Live poker is significantly softer/easier than online poker, but the amount of hands you get is significantly less than online.  I generally play 4-8 tables online with 6 players and average 200+ hands per hour. In a live game, it is generally 9 handed and obviously just one table, so you only get 20-30 hands per hour.  This means that if you are a live player, you need to either be playing high stakes with a decent win rate ($2/$5+) or be playing $1/$2 stakes with a very high win rate in order to make a respectable hourly. 
- In order to succeed at poker, you need to be an emotionally strong person and not let swings get to you.  You need to be able to lose a massive pot and not let it affect you emotionally. As I am sure you know, when someone starts playing differently because they are losing, we call that "tilt" and it can be extremely costly. If losing 10 buy ins at a stake (if you are playing $2/$5 stake and buying in for $500, that means losing $5k) scares you or makes you uncomfortable, you should not play it because over a large sample size it will happen to you. 
- In the poker industry there is so much absolute BS training sites and methods out there to teach you how to play. If you are new to the industry, it can be very hard to sift through all the nonsense and bad advice to get to something that is good.  I would say that 90% of the poker content you would run across just by googling "poker training" is just bad and harmful to you as a poker player long term.
- Artificial intelligence is catching up in poker.  Using chess as an example, the best computer programs can absolutely destroy the best human players.  This is making its way to poker.  A few years ago a bot named "Libratus" developed by Carnegie Mellon beat some of the best heads up human no limit poker players in the world over a large sample.  Now, the game tree for heads up is significantly smaller than 6-9 handed poker, so we are still a ways from "solving" no limit poker, but computer models and bots are just going to get better and better as computers become more powerful.  This is more impactful if you ever plan on playing online.
- You are simply way behind a lot of people of the skilled players (like myself) that have been playing and studying extensively for years.  That is not to say with hard work, a good mind, and utilization of the proper training resources you couldn't eventually surpass the skilled players, but it will take a lot of time to do so.
- You are going to need a lot self confidence, which can be difficult for some people.  I will admit I am not extremely self confident, so there have been countless times in my career I have gone on a downswing and questioned my ability as a poker player.  In order to succeed long term, you need to learn proper poker strategy and be confident that your decisions will win money over the long run. 
- Proper bankroll management for people can be really difficult and I would say is one of the major causes for people failing in poker.  If you are using poker as a side hustle, this is less of a problem as you are not relying on the income to support yourself, but you can still be playing stakes you are not properly bankrolled for and lose more money than you can afford.
- Some people have a moral problem with playing poker, as you are essentially winning money from the bad players, which can sometimes be people with real gambling problems.  People rationalize this in many different ways and I personally have come to terms with it, but this can weigh on you morally if you decide to pursue poker.

Now if you got through all my ranting and are not hesitant or scared of getting into poker, let me know and I can answer any additional questions you have.  I tried to be as complete as possible in my response, but there are probably some things I have left out. 

rocket354

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 08:58:16 AM »
Everything GoHokies says is spot on.

I played poker for a living for years. It is definitely possible. However, to add on to the points already made:

1) You have to really love the game, not just view it as an "easy way to make extra money." It is most definitely not easy. The famous quote goes "Poker is a hard way to make an easy living."

2) It may take years for you to get to the point where you can be consistently profitable.

3) "Consistently profitable" may still mean enduring months (or even entire years) that are losing. So it's hard to be certain if you really are good or just on a hot streak.

4) Poker and gambling in general can be addictive. Much like many alcoholics you might not even realize you are caught until you're in pretty deep.

5) Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.

For all the time it would take to get to a point where you can "reliably" make money at poker, you can probably put that time and effort into another skill that will 1) be socially productive, 2) have less income variance, 3) allow you to have positive interactions with people, and 4) have a chance for advancement or leave you with skills so that if you decide to change jobs/professions/hustles you aren't back at square one with no marketable/useful skills.

Omy

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 09:23:50 AM »
Wow...very detailed and informative post, GoHokies! I play "friendly" games regularly (and win more than I lose), but I do hate losing a big hand when I get my money in good. Any tips on how to get over that?

My poker friend recommended the book "The Course" by Ed Miller. Do you think that's a good one? What books/websites do you recommend? (I understand the math pretty well - I think confidence is my bigger issue. I am patient and probably play too tightly. I don't have much casino experience...and zero online experience. If I attempt this as a side gig, I would probably stick to live play.)

Omy

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 09:28:03 AM »

Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.


That is a perspective I had not considered...scary when you put it that way!

GoHokies

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2018, 10:08:11 AM »
Wow...very detailed and informative post, GoHokies! I play "friendly" games regularly (and win more than I lose), but I do hate losing a big hand when I get my money in good. Any tips on how to get over that?

My poker friend recommended the book "The Course" by Ed Miller. Do you think that's a good one? What books/websites do you recommend? (I understand the math pretty well - I think confidence is my bigger issue. I am patient and probably play too tightly. I don't have much casino experience...and zero online experience. If I attempt this as a side gig, I would probably stick to live play.)

As far as tips regarding how to get over losing a big hand, I'm not really a "mental game" expert as I just have never had a problem handling the swings.  I think it's just really important to detach yourself the short-term results oriented mentality that 90% of poker players fall into.  The result of any 1 hand or session (or string of sessions) just really doesn't matter if you are making the correct long term decisions.  The only book my poker friends have said is good is "The Mental Game of Poker".  I haven't read it personally, but I trust the opinions of my close poker friends.

I have not read "The Course" by Ed Miller.  From what I understand it is very basic and might be OK for beginners, but I can't really recommend or not recommend it.  The only poker books I've read and thought were helpful were books by Mathew Janda, which I will warn you are very dry.  Most other books are pretty outdated with current theory.  The main training site I would recommend is upswingpoker, as it is the only training site that treats poker more like an actual academic course (starts off with basics and gets into advanced concepts later).  It is reasonably expensive at $50/month, but it is worth it if and only if you plan on getting serious and actually studying the material.   In addition, a top former pro, Doug Polk, has a free YouTube channel where he goes over hands and concepts.  He's actually the owner of Upswing, but has tons of really good free content on his YouTube channel. 

My other advice if you actually do pursue this is just to recognize you really know nothing (I know you say you know the math well, but I just really doubt you do as knowing the math requires a ton of time and study) and be open to learning.  Poker is extremely unique that once people understand the basic rules of the game, they think they have a better understanding or better opinion than some of the best poker players in the world.  It is really odd, as you do not see this in other games/sports.  Chess novices do not question chess grandmasters for a move they make. With poker, you see complete noobs and people with just really bad logic berating the play of top professionals.  I think this is just because people are way to obsessed with the short term results of poker (i.e. why did he make that call? It was obvious he had AA there!") and have a hard time thinking about the play in a long term sense. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 10:13:56 AM by GoHokies »

Omy

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2018, 11:55:57 AM »
I admit that my knowledge of Poker is just scratching the surface - my experience is limited to a decade of playing in weekly home games. I have a b.s in math/statistics so I understand the math better than most of the people I play with, but I would need to study it a lot more if I decide to treat it as a source of income and not just a social thing. Thanks for the recommendations.

HBFIRE

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2018, 12:02:24 PM »
I do this, but I've been playing cards at a very competitive level for over 20 yrs now (I play semi-professional bridge).  One of my bridge partners has a world series bracelet and got hired to run a hedge fund purely due to his risk/reward mastery from poker.  Many people I play Bridge with were hired on Wall Street to be options traders just because of their risk/reward skillset from playing Bridge.  It's not something you can just jump into.  You have to play for a very long time and have a high level player mentor you.   You have to lose $ just to learn enough to win long term. The reason you need a mentor is that the game is completely different depending on the skill level of those you're playing as well as the stakes/form of game, and an expert player knows how to adjust accordingly.  Live poker is much more lucrative than online especially in non-Vegas cities.  Socal is good because lots of people with $ that have no idea what they're doing yet love to gamble.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:33:13 PM by dustinst22 »

chuckster

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2018, 03:13:40 PM »
About 15/20 years ago, you could be mediocre and made a decent side hustle out of it. I was a borderline player, not really profitable, but, I did make $100/day for several months by playing online and chasing deposit bonuses.

It used to be that all the online sites were in competition for players, so they'd give you a 10% bonus on your money you deposited. I would deposit $1000 in the morning, and they would give me a credit for $100 after I'd played 10,000 hands of poker. That took a good 6 hours or so of playing multiple tables at the same time.

I did not win much at the tables. Some days I came out ahead, some behind, and on average, I'd say I broke even.

However, every night I could withdraw the now $1100 into my online account, and repeat the process the next day on another poker site. They would only give the deposit once a month, but, there were 30 sites in competition so I would just cycle through them.

I made a lot of side hustle cash doing this for much of a year, then, the hammer came down and all the online poker sites were shut down. It'll never be like that again.



As to your friend, well, poker isn't a great side hustle, or, everyone at the table would be making money at it. You can only win what everyone else loses, after all. You have to be really, really, really good to be consistently profitable.

Gronnie

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Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2018, 04:31:59 PM »
I have a tech job in Irvine, CA by day and grind 5/5 and 5/10 NLH and PLO games by evening in the Southern Los Angeles cardrooms (Commerce, Gardens, and The Bike mostly).

I wouldn't suggest it for most people. I've put in a lot of study and play time and have a big bankroll for the stakes I play. If I was playing a lot more hours instead of only primetime evening and weekend hours and was depending on the income for anything it would be a pretty terrible existence.

As is it is a great side job with an hourly EV (note I say expected value and not wage, because it's possible to run way below expectation for a long time) approximately equal to my tech job compensation on an hourly basis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 04:38:28 PM by Gronnie »

mathlete

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2018, 04:35:29 PM »
Playing cards is like sabremetrics. There's a lot of numbers involved and it can work over a large sample size (162 games, decades of playing poker).

If she's got numbers showing that she comes out ahead over a large number of games, and she's got the intestinal fortitude to ride the ups and downs, sure, why not?

HBFIRE

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2018, 04:51:29 PM »
I have a tech job in Irvine, CA by day and grind 5/5 and 5/10 NLH and PLO games by evening in the Southern Los Angeles cardrooms (Commerce, Gardens, and The Bike mostly).


Heh, we probably have crossed paths.  I also used to work in Irvine before I started my business.  Those are all good places to play.  Irvine used to have a great bridge tournament ever year, it's been moved to Costa Mesa.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 04:58:40 PM by dustinst22 »

big_slacker

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »
Big_slacker, did you enjoy dealing? Do you mind sharing how lucrative it is (or isn't)? I've been curious about that as a "retirement" gig if I find I have too much time on my hands. I

I absolutely hated it. Not that every poker player is a gigantic douchebag but there is almost always at least one at every table. Aside from general dickhead behavior there is almost always someone trying to take advantage of less experienced players, or cheat the house by challenging the dealer after the hand or the pot has been cleared and so on. Easily one of the worst casino jobs I had. Pay was decent, $200-$250/night and it's keep your own tips, cash out at the end of the night. This was in the early 2000's in a small market, I imagine Vegas dealers probably do better based on the diff between my wife's work as a craps dealer back home vs Vegas when we moved there.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 04:49:04 PM by big_slacker »

Werthless

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 12:38:36 PM »

5) Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.

This is why I stepped back from playing poker as a side hustle (I typically 4-tabled Heads-up cash games online, and occasionally played live full table cash games). I started to feel like I was wasting my life, developing some anti-social tendencies, and having the losing days affect my mood. Once I got married and moved in with my wife, I put poker aside, aside from the couple times a year I play live with my friends.

To answer the OP, yes it is plausible to do this as a side hustle, but it's not a simple $30/hr job. It's gambling, which comes with the risks mentioned in the above posts. It takes a disciplined person to succeed.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 11:43:48 AM »

5) Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.


Several years ago I used to host games for my friends and colleagues. Because I studied and played often, I almost always won and took their money.  What made it even worse is that I made a significantly higher income than most of them and was taking the money they needed far more than I did.  As a poker player I become very competitive even if it is for small amounts.  Eventually I realized how bad this was practically stealing from my friends and had to stop hosting games. 

One additional stressor to poker which was kind of alluded to is the variance.  As stated above, you can go on long loosing streaks questioning your ability to play and it could very well get into your head.  It gets even worse when the money you are playing with is eventually supposed to be earmarked for rent, food or 401k savings.  If you are going to play, have a poker dedicated bankroll.  This money is just for poker and nothing else.  Keep it in an online savings account and add/withdraw based on your winnings.  Having this money never earmarked for anything other than poker will alleviate some of that stress.

I still play poker in casinos on vacation for a few hours if the opportunity arrives.  I also play low limit online very rarely just for fun.  I play for fun and not for the money and enjoy the game much more.  I do not play with friends anymore it still brings out the worst in me.

SKL-HOU

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2019, 04:01:11 PM »
I worked as a blackjack dealer when I lived in st. Louis. The pay was decent for an easy, part time job. $4.5/hour plus tips, tips were all combined and split to be added to your hourly, it added up to $18-24/hr. For me it was a lot of fun because I love blackjack. The only hard part was i would work my 8-5 during the week then9 pm to 5 am friday and saturday nights at the casino.i quit after 6 months because of the schedule. My current city/state doesn’t have casinos, otherwise i would love to get back to it.

PJC74

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 09:20:37 PM »
The golden age to make $$ in poker is over. I started playing in 1998 on Planet Poker. I was a novice at the time, only playing poker with friends for small stakes.
I deposited $50 and proceeded to lose that in 15 min playing 2/4 fixed limit. Still though, I was hooked. Kept depositing and playing, reading poker books, etc.
I didn't keep good track first year of playing, but I probably lost a few thousand.

Transitioned over to Paradise Poker, kept honing my skills, kept reading,  starting playing micro NL games . After a year on there I booked an $800 profit. Not impressive, but I felt I could beat the players , learned proper bankroll management, etc.

To keep this short, I eventually moved onto the bigger sites , FT, Stars, Absolute in mid 00's and eventually was multi tabling  $10/20 NL games and playing in large buy-in tourneys. I've cashed tourneys worth more than nice cars and made more in cash games in one week than some folks make in one year.
The Moneymaker effect in 2003 only made the games that much easier. From 2004 to 2007, I made really good $$ . Everybody was online trying to strike it rich. It was awesome! I had 5 years to perfect my craft, and I was playing with people who literally never played poker. They say timing in life is everything :) I noticed the tide starting  to shift in late 2007 as the games  started to get tougher. The novices from 2003 were also reading books, getting their hundreds of thousands of hands under their belt, etc. I made 1/2 of what I did in 2008 as I did in 2007, and even less in 2009. By the time Black Friday in poker hit in 2011, I was on tack to make 1/5 from my best year in 2007.


In short, the online sites these days cant be trusted by US players, and also  the players are much better than a decade ago.
Live games are beatable, especially on weekend nights where you'll encounter more drunks, novice players there for bachelor parties, etc, but since you can't scale (multi table) like you can with online poker, I don't see it being very lucrative.

Play poker for a hobby, but would not consider it as a side hustle.

HBFIRE

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2019, 09:31:48 PM »
Still very lucrative, but live play is where it's at -- particularly in SoCal where there are people with money that think they are skilled and willing to give action but not close to as good as the players in Vegas.  Poker is a funny game compared to others where there is a huge gap between actual skill level and what a player thinks his skill level is at, this happens simply because anyone can win on any given hand and the luck factor keeps it alive.  Lucky success then leads to false confidence and bad plays later.  It's extremely important to recognize when you were lucky vs actually outplayed an opponent so that you can improve your play. It's important to be able to recognize your own real skill level so that you can play in games where you can recognize you have an edge.  Most don't know their actual level and hence lose money.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:41:44 PM by dustinst22 »

PJC74

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2019, 09:41:17 PM »
Still very lucrative, but live play is where it's at, particularly in SoCal where there are people with money willing to give action but not as good as the players in Vegas.

I'm 45 min from closest casino and can only play once a week at most. No way I can get in enough hands to negate variance. Factor in tipping the dealers, casino rake, gas/wear and tear on car and for me at least, it's not lucrative.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:43:25 PM by PJC74 »

clifp

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2019, 10:19:20 PM »
My experience is similar to @PJC74

I started playing in early 2000 and did very well. Then started playing live games in the around 2004 in Hawaii (almost all poker in Hawaii is illegal and the rakes are very high) I did very well there playing 2-3 weeks and start playing in Vegas I played in 3 WSOP events (never the main)  in 2007 and 2008. Cashed in one which allows me to brag that I'm winning WSOP player (for a whopping $250 LOL).  My best years were summer 2008 to Jan 2010, during that time period I never went to an ATM. I paid cash for my fitness classes, my dentist, lots of casual meals and bought $5,000 worth of Koa wood furniture with my poker winnings. It was particularly good timing because with the market crashing I wasn't feeling very flush. So I'm sure the money I made playing poker during that time frame has tripled today.

I started losing a small amount in 2009/2010 online and so by the time Black Friday and I was upset but not that upset. My Hawaii games started to get noticeably tighter and my discipline got worse, so I started losing roughly $5-$10.  Not to bad as entertainment, but players were more serious less fun, and lets face poker is a lot more fun when you win then you lose.

I still play a couple of times a year at either the card rooms in the SF Bay Area or Vegas.  At this point it is just for fun.

Right now it appears that poker is contracting not expanding, so I think it is a very hard time to play it professionally or even as a side hustle.  But all you need to do is being the top 10% or maybe even 20% to make money at the game.  I do think making more than 4 BB/hour is very difficult. It is still a terrific game though.

TikiRikiTavi

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2020, 09:52:36 AM »

5) Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.

This is why I stepped back from playing poker as a side hustle (I typically 4-tabled Heads-up cash games online, and occasionally played live full table cash games). I started to feel like I was wasting my life, developing some anti-social tendencies, and having the losing days affect my mood. Once I got married and moved in with my wife, I put poker aside, aside from the couple times a year I play live with my friends.

To answer the OP, yes it is plausible to do this as a side hustle, but it's not a simple $30/hr job. It's gambling, which comes with the risks mentioned in the above posts. It takes a disciplined person to succeed.

Hey, so you think that this it's worth a try?

DupeDupex

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2020, 05:41:28 AM »

5) Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.

This is why I stepped back from playing poker as a side hustle (I typically 4-tabled Heads-up cash games online, and occasionally played live full table cash games). I started to feel like I was wasting my life, developing some anti-social tendencies, and having the losing days affect my mood. Once I got married and moved in with my wife, I put poker aside, aside from the couple times a year I play live with my friends.

To answer the OP, yes it is plausible to do this as a side hustle, but it's not a simple $30/hr job. It's gambling, which comes with the risks mentioned in the above posts. It takes a disciplined person to succeed.

Hey, so you think that this it's worth a try?
Agree with you!

KBecks

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2020, 06:50:06 AM »

Poker is a fascinating game filled with much nuance and requiring (and developing) a wide variety of skills. However, once you progress through all of that, at the end of the day you are a sociopath. Every decision you make is designed to maximize your take from the other person(s) and to always maintain a facade about what they think about you so you can continue to exploit them more and more. You are a parasite leeching onto bad players and sucking them dry. And you have to be--you can't be successful unless you are constantly identifying opportunities and exploiting them for every dollar you can. Every person you meet is trying to take your money, and you're trying to take theirs. Bottom line is that playing poker is an isolating, morally bankrupt life that can wear on anyone who has the slightest bit of a soul.


That is a perspective I had not considered...scary when you put it that way!

Thanks to rocket354 for such a great post on poker and for this valuable insight. 

astephens94

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2020, 05:49:34 AM »
Never gamble what you can't afford to lose, right? I suppose (in a mustacian sense) every dollar we can afford to utilize should go towards investments, right?

PJC74

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2020, 02:04:38 PM »
poker can be an +EV game over a large population sample, so it's not gambling in the typical sense as a "house" advantage game such as BJ, roulette, $$ wheel, etc. where they always have a -EV

Lucky13

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2020, 11:45:25 PM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?
you may want to check out Wizard of Odds forum too. 

DrAlvarez

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2020, 06:30:05 AM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?

30 bucks. I know people who make $ 500 a day, so it’s very profitable and I'm sure your friend isn’t lying!

FIREin2018

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2020, 07:43:12 PM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?
i play $1/3 no limit in the casino for fun.
i've kept records since 2016.
playing 500hrs/yr, i make about $15/hr.

it's ridiculously easy. Just play good cards. with small pairs, i set mine. check/fold on the flop if i dont get it.
heads up, if s/he calls my c-bet, i check/fold if i dont have at least top pair on later streets. if 3+ players, i check/fold if i miss the flop.

note: i've hit a few poker room promos every year of between $200 and $500 each, which factors into my $ per hr avg.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 08:31:32 PM by FIREin2018 »

FIREin2018

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2020, 08:29:15 PM »
For all the time it would take to get to a point where you can "reliably" make money at poker, you can probably put that time and effort into another skill that will
1) be socially productive,
2) have less income variance,
3) allow you to have positive interactions with people, and
4) have a chance for advancement or leave you with skills so that if you decide to change jobs/professions/hustles you aren't back at square one with no marketable/useful skills.
well damn...

the new thing nowadays is poker has been solved with computers.
ie: bet small on the flop is more profitable than the usually 60-80% pot flop c-bet. if your range is better than their range, then you want to keep them in with small bets and print equity in the long run.

i planned to spend alot of time into understanding Game Theory Optimal.
but given your perspective, it might be better to spend that time learning other things.

Darren

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2020, 06:43:21 AM »
Can anyone recommend a good book or other media about poker mathematics? I need some more quarantine reading material.

Psychstache

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2020, 07:04:20 AM »
Can anyone recommend a good book or other media about poker mathematics? I need some more quarantine reading material.

2+2 forums

frugaldevil

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2020, 07:04:40 AM »
I thought Play Optimal Poker by Andrew Bokos was a pretty good introduction to game theory. He uses it as a base for decision making when you don't have much information but also talks about how to deviate to play exploitatively.

Warning: It's not an easy read. If you really try his examples along the way, you'll have to think. I read it twice and could probably benefit from another pass.

BTDretire

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2020, 07:39:33 AM »
Former poker dealer here.

It take a *LOT* of work to become a good poker player capable of turning a profit over time in say 3/6 or 5/10 games. You can start online with a fairly small bankroll and there are a lot of books, courses, etc available from free. But ultimately you have to have the right type of mind for it, discipline and a lot of experience.

I do agree with tracking, it's a numbers game and requires brutal honesty about results be successful. Most gamblers consciously or subconsciously inflate their success.

Personally I think there are way easier ways to make $30/hr.

  That reminds me of people that buy and sell stocks, they brag about all their winners and happen to forget to mention their losers.

mikemagz11

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2020, 09:20:21 AM »
Can anyone recommend a good book or other media about poker mathematics? I need some more quarantine reading material.

2+2 forums

+1. Will get much more info from here than reading a book.

As someone whose played mover a million hands live and online, it can definitely be done but will be a GRIND. Playing hours and hours online or live is grueling and not a great life style. You need to be extremely disciplined, play within your bankroll, become immune to bad beats, and stick to what is profitable for you.

js82

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2020, 01:22:40 PM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?

I knew someone who made a sizeable income playing online poker.  It generally involved playing multiple games simultaneously online, to maximize his earning potential.  According to him it wasn't fun, it was simply a job.

Fundamentally poker isn't "gambling" against house-favoring odds in the manner that other card/casino games are.  There's a huge element of luck in any single hand, but over the long haul you're playing mind games against the other players.

Others have already touched on the other psychological aspects of poker in this thread, and I have nothing to add to what's already been said.

UnleashHell

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2020, 04:42:06 AM »
I still play live - but thats now limited to a trip or 2 to Vegas each year. Even on those i'd say I'm profitable - I mainly play tourneys and it only takes a big cash to move the needle. Poor tourney play can kill you because of the house take. even good tourney play can because shit happens and you can be dumped out even when going in ahead. i've had a long run where I got my money in good and couldn't win.

I could do it full time still but i'm too old for that shit. Thought about it 20 years ago but had kids and couldn't bring myself to gamble like I needed to in order to be successful.
I could play more locally - we have a huge card room near me - but I prefer to keep my poker time to vegas trip and make it fun. Going to the card room 5 times a week would take the fun out of it.


Plus  I earn more on the day job than I probably would playing cards.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2022, 01:40:07 PM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?

The most extreme example of a poker side hustle is Annie Duke. She made millions. However, her advantage was being a grad student in Cognitive Psychology. She wrote the book "Thinking in Bets" and now she does consulting on decision making for CEO's. She no longer plays poker because she makes more money doing other things.

I had a very similar experience to her in grad school. I applied my knowledge of judgement and decision making and I was an above average poker player with very little experience. I actually posted a similar question on this forum probably 5 years ago (before her book was published). The consensus was that it was not possible. After reading her book, I think it is possible. However, five years later, I think I make more money with real estate as a side hustle. 

When I go to Vegas, I play an afternoon tournament ($40-$80 buy-in) and pretty much always make it to the final table. It's not that hard when your competition are drunk tourists looking to kill some time. I really like the afternoon games because people get tired. That is enough to scratch my itch. If I played against pros, I would probably get destroyed. I know my limits.

I have a friend who lived in Vegas for 18-24 months to be a professional poker player full-time. He kept track of everything and as long as he progressed as a player, he was going to continue to see how good he could get. After about 1-year he was making 1K/week comfortably or 50K/year. However, after that he stopped getting better. I think he left Vegas after 18 months and got a desk job making 75K/year.

 

clifp

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2022, 03:16:21 AM »

I have a friend who lived in Vegas for 18-24 months to be a professional poker player full-time. He kept track of everything and as long as he progressed as a player, he was going to continue to see how good he could get. After about 1-year he was making 1K/week comfortably or 50K/year. However, after that he stopped getting better. I think he left Vegas after 18 months and got a desk job making 75K/year.


I was a semi-serious poker player from 2004-2012, first online and then later at local games, and I spend a couple weeks a year in Vegas, playing poker.
A number of young folks who did well at Hawaii games (which were strictly illegal) moved to Vegas to try their shot at professional play. They typically did better at dealing than playing

I think a smart person can make 10 BB/hour at the 1-2,1-3  level perhaps up to the $2-$5 game, so that works out to $20-30 so yes $1k/week.  The thing is if you're smart enough to make that kind of money, you can easily make 2x that doing something financial, banking, real estate, stocks.

PDXTabs

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2022, 03:39:42 AM »
My coworker used to pay his mortgage with online poker before it was banned in the USA, but his hourly rate as low enough that he quit.* It is definitely possible to beat the unwashed masses.

* - this is just a numbers game. Play six hands at once and fold almost all of them. Most players are sloppier than that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 03:41:45 AM by PDXTabs »

Money Saver 1

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2022, 04:16:32 AM »
I have a friend who plays poker as a side hustle and claims to net approximately $30/hour at it. She tracks her wins and losses and pays taxes on her "income". I've always thought of poker as gambling - not as a reliable income producer. Are there any forum members who do this?

I am going to bartending/dealing school here very soon.  I anticipate making much more as a dealer than I could make as a player. 

GilesMM

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2022, 07:16:53 AM »
I have never understand why people who claim they are consistently banking earnings ($30/hr), don't bet a wager a great deal more. Why not turn that into $300 or $3,000 per hour?

I had a friend who claimed to count cards well and would go to the casinos in Louisiana for a long, sleepless weekend of blackjack. He said he could consistently earn $10/hour.  Woo-hoo!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2022, 08:26:33 AM »
I have never understand why people who claim they are consistently banking earnings ($30/hr), don't bet a wager a great deal more. Why not turn that into $300 or $3,000 per hour?

I had a friend who claimed to count cards well and would go to the casinos in Louisiana for a long, sleepless weekend of blackjack. He said he could consistently earn $10/hour.  Woo-hoo!
Perhaps their skill breaks down as the size of the wagers increase, and emotions like loss aversion enter the process.

GuitarStv

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2022, 09:06:56 AM »
I knew (and briefly lived with) a guy who made his living playing poker when I was in University.  He kept all of his winnings/losses in a notebook, and managed to make it work for three years.  At one point he was up a couple hundred grand.  Then he had a bad streak and lost it.  So then he was constantly looking for someone to 'stake him' and we sort of grew apart.

Last I heard of him he had given up on poker and was dealing drugs.  :P 

Gronnie

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2022, 09:55:57 AM »
I have never understand why people who claim they are consistently banking earnings ($30/hr), don't bet a wager a great deal more. Why not turn that into $300 or $3,000 per hour?

I had a friend who claimed to count cards well and would go to the casinos in Louisiana for a long, sleepless weekend of blackjack. He said he could consistently earn $10/hour.  Woo-hoo!

Because of variance and risk of ruin.

Smokystache

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2022, 11:21:50 AM »

I have never understand why people who claim they are consistently banking earnings ($30/hr), don't bet a wager a great deal more. Why not turn that into $300 or $3,000 per hour?

I had a friend who claimed to count cards well and would go to the casinos in Louisiana for a long, sleepless weekend of blackjack. He said he could consistently earn $10/hour.  Woo-hoo!

There are two big factors here. Generally speaking, more skilled players are playing at the higher limits, so your average earnings rate will most likely drop. You run into tougher competition.

Second, is that variance can mean that you are playing "perfectly" and yet losing over pretty long stretches of hands (as in, over thousands of hands). So the vast majority of poker players who do this long term practice strict bankroll management to prove their ability as they move up the money/limits. I played for 2-3 years and started with $100 on an online site and never added another penny. I made a terrible hourly wage and quit playing and it got to be like a monkey punching a button. But I had really good bankroll management (didn't play beyond my abilities and have a bad run erase my earnings or take me negative).

Or to put it more succinctly:
Because of variance and risk of ruin.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Poker as a side hustle?
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2022, 12:43:02 PM »
I have never understand why people who claim they are consistently banking earnings ($30/hr), don't bet a wager a great deal more. Why not turn that into $300 or $3,000 per hour?

I had a friend who claimed to count cards well and would go to the casinos in Louisiana for a long, sleepless weekend of blackjack. He said he could consistently earn $10/hour.  Woo-hoo!

For the tournaments, when the buy-in gets bigger the level of competition gets better. I like low stakes tournaments in Vegas. The pay-outs are not big enough to attract professionals. However, it's fun when I get an extra $200-$500 to spend in Vegas.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!