plumbing woes...leak in the slab

[Spiffy]

Well, it was bound to happen...I have a plumbing leak in my slab. My early 1960s ranch house has a leak in the pipes "somewhere" under the house. We have had a plumber come out and look and he said we should make an insurance claim. We did that and have already been denied. The plumber suggested asking for another assessment and a meeting with Enviro-serve, which happens next week. I am assuming it will not be covered by our home owners insurance. The estimate they threw out was $10-20 thousand! Anyone have experience with a slab leak? Is jack hammering through the floor the only way to go? Might we re route the plumbing around the outside of the house? Either way, this is going to suck. And thank goodness I have the money to pay for this. Long ago before I knew about tax advantaged investing, we put a chunk of money into a regular old Vanguard account and it has been quietly growing for many years. I didn't want to use it on something like this, but at least I can if I have to. I can't imagine how one of the many "people that can't come up with $400 for an emergency" we hear about so often would deal with this.

[Bateaux]

What is leaking?  Pressure or drain pipes?  Yes by the way,  a $1000 emergency fund is crazy.  Try $10,000 just to start feeling comfortable.   

[Trifecta]

Might we re route the plumbing around the outside of the house?

Yep our plumber re routed everything through our exterior walls, attic, & outside of house. Total cost was around $3000 about 5 years ago. I expected it to be much more but had some good bids & negotiated a bit. All in all he re plumbed the kitchen, 3 bathrooms, & 3 exterior hose spigots. Took him a few days to complete.

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[Spiffy]

Drain pipe from the kitchen and laundry side of the house.

[Khaetra]

I kept having leaks in the slab and had my plumbing rerouted.  Much cheaper than to keep having them come out, tearing up the laundry room and having things displaced.  I think I paid around $5K.

[AlexK]

I had it happen in a rental property. Not fun. I hired a plumber to find the leak and jackhammer the slab. The funny part is there was a huge cavity under the slab, like big enough to crawl around in. I'm guessing it happened before and the previous owner dug it out but didn't fill it back in. They fixed the pipe, cost was about $1300, but they refused to fill in the cavity. So my friend and I did it. We had a truck bring in a few yards of decomposed granite and we brought it into the house with a wheelbarrow.

At least in your own house it is just you being inconvenienced. I paid for my tenants to stay in a hotel for a few days while I fixed it.

[accolay]

So you know where the leak is? Or just an approximate location?

[ObviouslyNotAGolfer]

We had a similar problem a couple years ago. From what I can tell, Jackhammering through the slab is a real PITA, and there is no guarantee that another leak won't spring up somewhere else in the slab. We had the pipes re-routed through the attic, and had a couple drywalls removed and replaced. There was actually some redundancy in the piping, so it was not too terribly expensive. Nevertheless, it still sucks no matter which way you slice it. It's a dumbass location for pipes.

[Bateaux]

I really don't like slab houses for this very reason.  A friend at work and former builder refused to build his house on a slab.  He called slab houses temporary.   He build his house to last hundreds of years if cared for since it's on concrete piers.  A few wedges are all that's needed to keep it level.  Remodeling for.electric wires and plumbing is easy.  PVC pipe gets brittle after 25 years and will snap with the shifting slab.  Good luck with those drain pipes.  Supply lines are easy.  Just run some PEX tubing.  Drains unless in an outside wall are going to be expensive.   Sinks could likely be routed through a wall.  Toilet, tub, shower.  Jackhanmer.

[Spiffy]

We only know approximate location now. I can only assume they will find the spot before they start ripping into the floor. We looked forever for a house built on pier and beams, but in our location, slabs are the norm. I wonder if there is a way to find the blueprints for the house so we can at least know where the pipes run. We are probably the 3rd or 4th owners, but one of those used it as a rental for a while before we bought it. And I have no idea who the builder was.

[accolay]

Are they able to scope the drain to find the leak, or are these leaks more likely of the hairline variety?

[Another Reader]

Finding a drain leak or blockage is different than a supply leak.  Leak detectors don't work.  You have to scope, usually from a roof vent.  If the leak is under the slab, going through the slab is the only method.  Get multiple bids for the work and run the scope through the entire system.  Get the contractors to show you the break on the camera.  A lot of them are not very good at this and just guess.

[Spiffy]

Are they able to scope the drain to find the leak, or are these leaks more likely of the hairline variety?

Yes, they snaked a camera though the pipes and found several small cracks and one large area of decayed cast iron pipe. That is why I would like to replace all of the pipes with new ones, because I am sure after one spot is repaired or replaced, another problem would pop up somewhere else. I thought that their fancy camera would tell them exactly where the problem were spotted, like plotting GPS points or something. Heck, my Dad's farm tractor drives itself with GPS positioning, can't the plumbing world use that technology, too?

[Spiffy]

Finding a drain leak or blockage is different than a supply leak.  Leak detectors don't work.  You have to scope, usually from a roof vent.  If the leak is under the slab, going through the slab is the only method.  Get multiple bids for the work and run the scope through the entire system.  Get the contractors to show you the break on the camera.  A lot of them are not very good at this and just guess.

I don't think going through the slab is the only method. I know several people in my area who have rerouted the plumbing around the house, but I think it depends on the layout of the house and pipes. And we do know that it is a drain leak and not a supply leak, if that makes a difference.

[Another Reader]

Supply is easy to reroute.  Pressure moves the water.  Drain lines have no pressure and rely on gravity.  You can't reroute.

Cast iron drains have about a 40 year life, if you are lucky.  I have heard of sleeving the interior of the pipe, but I have no experience with that.  The last cast iron drain I dealt with was outside and it was crushed.  Dig and replace was the only option.

[accolay]

Are they able to scope the drain to find the leak, or are these leaks more likely of the hairline variety?

Yes, they snaked a camera though the pipes and found several small cracks and one large area of decayed cast iron pipe. That is why I would like to replace all of the pipes with new ones, because I am sure after one spot is repaired or replaced, another problem would pop up somewhere else. I thought that their fancy camera would tell them exactly where the problem were spotted, like plotting GPS points or something. Heck, my Dad's farm tractor drives itself with GPS positioning, can't the plumbing world use that technology, too?

How about just how much length the camera line was actually in the pipe? Oh well. You're probably right that  if you have a few cracks, probably more to follow if you don't replace the whole thing.

How big is the slab though? I'm always dumbfounded by the price tags some contractors give. It's not like it's a complicated repair...bust up concrete, dig out old pipes. Put in new PVC/ABS pipes. Bury them  in suitable material and concrete over. Plus they'll probably have it done in a day or two right? What's the profit margin on that?

[SwordGuy]

We bought a slab house to rehab and flip.  Our plumber - who we know does good work and is as honest as can be - told us it could cost $8k to fix the plumbing if it's gone bad in the slab.  Jack-hammering, etc.

Since the water had been disconnected (with no way to cheaply fix that before buying) we won't know for a few more months.   Oh, the suspense...

[accolay]

We bought a slab house to rehab and flip.  Our plumber - who we know does good work and is as honest as can be - told us it could cost $8k to fix the plumbing if it's gone bad in the slab.  Jack-hammering, etc.

Still a bit far from the $10-20k quoted to OP. The job is labor intensive- I get it speaking as someone who dug out the whole basement floor in a house to replace. Material cost isn't that much though. Probably they can charge since they're the only ones who will do it and it's fairly important if you ever want to use an indoor toilet again. But there has got to be a large profit margin in there.

I'm in the wrong business.

[letired]

Slightly off topic, but I'm reassured to know that re-routing the supply side into the roof is a semi-reasonable job! I'll maybe bump that one up the list a little!

[Spiffy]

We bought a slab house to rehab and flip.  Our plumber - who we know does good work and is as honest as can be - told us it could cost $8k to fix the plumbing if it's gone bad in the slab.  Jack-hammering, etc.

Still a bit far from the $10-20k quoted to OP. The job is labor intensive- I get it speaking as someone who dug out the whole basement floor in a house to replace. Material cost isn't that much though. Probably they can charge since they're the only ones who will do it and it's fairly important if you ever want to use an indoor toilet again. But there has got to be a large profit margin in there.

I'm in the wrong business.

I think that quote included replacing the floors after the digging and plumbing, which would include new tile in the entrance and laminate in almost the whole house because there are no thresh holds until you get to the bed rooms. If this isn't covered by insurance. we could do the flooring ourselves and save a lot that way.

[accolay]

we could do the flooring ourselves and save a lot that way.

I think that's what I would do

[Gimesalot]

We had the same issue come up about two months ago.  Honestly, if you wanted to save money, you could rent the jackhammer yourself and break out the concrete.  Then, have the pipe replaced and fill it in yourself, as well as the flooring.  It would be a lot of work, but if you have the time and skills, it could be worth your while.

[Lowerbills]

I have some experience with this.  Work in real estate in a neighborhood that is predominately late 50s early 60s slab foundation ranch style homes with original cast iron plumbing.  That would be my first question, which I didn't see above, are your pipes cast iron or did someone previously re-plumb it to PVC?

In addition to a scope, you can do a hydrostatic test.  Plumbers in my area charge about $250.  At the exterior cleanout you block the pipe and fill up a tub usually and remove a toilet.  Pressurize the system and if the water level holds, no leaks, or you can see it recede slowly, or just not hold at all.  They have become so common that the Texas Real Estate Commission now included it in the latest update to the standard residential contract.  You have to now get permission from the seller to perform this test during your inspection (as there is a chance that by performing the test you can cause damage).  They've become so common that it's basically part of the home inspection, or one of the first questions people ask "Is it original cast iron plumbing, or PVC?"

My only advice if it is cast iron, is don't repair a section.  Tunnel under the house and replace all the plumbing with PVC.  This can run $15k-$25k depending on the house.  If it's PVC and isolated, yes you can cut concrete and repair a section.

Good luck. 
 

[Spiffy]

My only advice if it is cast iron, is don't repair a section.  Tunnel under the house and replace all the plumbing with PVC.  This can run $15k-$25k depending on the house.  If it's PVC and isolated, yes you can cut concrete and repair a section.

Good luck. 
 

Thanks for this information, though I find it frightening! Yes it is the original cast iron pipes. We have had a leak before where they were able to tunnel under the house probably about 7 feet and make a repair. We saw the camera footage while the plumber was here and could see the damaged pipe. There is no question the we have a leak, just don't know the exact location. I am guessing the plumber can figure that our before the work begins.  I will report back here later with all of the gruesome details and let you know how we fixed it and the cost.

[Blatant]

I’m in Phx, where most houses are slab. Had multiple pinhole leaks in one area and obviously no guarantee they wouldn’t spread. We had the lines capped and re-routed the entire system externally. This was probably in 2008 or so. We paid about $5k at the time.

[BTDretire]

Please, stop this talk! I have a 45 year old house on a slab.
I had to snake the main line 15 or 20 years ago.
So far other than than it's holding up.

[acroy]

yuck, sorry to hear of the issue.

I had a 15yr old house with foundation issues and multiple breaks in the PVC. total about $6k repair costs. I redid the floors myself. The whole experience sucked, literally a money drain.

If you jackhammer it yourself, watch out for the tension cables which i assume it has. Companies out there can locate and mark them for you so you don't hit them. Co-worker of mine remodeled a slab house himself incl. plumbing relocation and had this done. Worked very well.

External or attic plumbing: beware sub-freezing temps. My current house in N TX has external gas tankless water heater with a small amount of supply line in the attic. Despite being insulated that bitch will freeze right up. Can lose hot water for days depending how long the cold snap is. At temps below 25F I sent an alarm every 4hrs and run the hot water for a minute to keep the lines thawed.


ahhh the joys of 1st world living - LOVE it!

[nemesis]

I’m in Phx, where most houses are slab. Had multiple pinhole leaks in one area and obviously no guarantee they wouldn’t spread. We had the lines capped and re-routed the entire system externally. This was probably in 2008 or so. We paid about $5k at the time.

Can you explain how it was re-routed?  Any concerns with the lines being re-routed since?  Phoenix does experience freezing temperatures...does that affect it?

[nemesis]

yuck, sorry to hear of the issue.

I had a 15yr old house with foundation issues and multiple breaks in the PVC. total about $6k repair costs. I redid the floors myself. The whole experience sucked, literally a money drain.

If you jackhammer it yourself, watch out for the tension cables which i assume it has. Companies out there can locate and mark them for you so you don't hit them. Co-worker of mine remodeled a slab house himself incl. plumbing relocation and had this done. Worked very well.

External or attic plumbing: beware sub-freezing temps. My current house in N TX has external gas tankless water heater with a small amount of supply line in the attic. Despite being insulated that bitch will freeze right up. Can lose hot water for days depending how long the cold snap is. At temps below 25F I sent an alarm every 4hrs and run the hot water for a minute to keep the lines thawed.


ahhh the joys of 1st world living - LOVE it!

hah, nothing like real world experience!

[letired]

yuck, sorry to hear of the issue.

I had a 15yr old house with foundation issues and multiple breaks in the PVC. total about $6k repair costs. I redid the floors myself. The whole experience sucked, literally a money drain.

If you jackhammer it yourself, watch out for the tension cables which i assume it has. Companies out there can locate and mark them for you so you don't hit them. Co-worker of mine remodeled a slab house himself incl. plumbing relocation and had this done. Worked very well.

External or attic plumbing: beware sub-freezing temps. My current house in N TX has external gas tankless water heater with a small amount of supply line in the attic. Despite being insulated that bitch will freeze right up. Can lose hot water for days depending how long the cold snap is. At temps below 25F I sent an alarm every 4hrs and run the hot water for a minute to keep the lines thawed.


ahhh the joys of 1st world living - LOVE it!

*furiously takes notes* I'm farther south, but am investigating the re-routing thing for when the galvanized pipes finally go. I live in a concrete block house, and I think that has protected some of the pipes that are in the less-insulated parts of the building, but I haven't lived here long enough to really know.

[Dicey]

Signing on to follow this saga. We had a similar scare in a rental recently. Turned out to be a defective sprinkler valve. Sounds like your diagnosis is more definitive, alas.

[Monkey Uncle]

Are they able to scope the drain to find the leak, or are these leaks more likely of the hairline variety?

Yes, they snaked a camera though the pipes and found several small cracks and one large area of decayed cast iron pipe. That is why I would like to replace all of the pipes with new ones, because I am sure after one spot is repaired or replaced, another problem would pop up somewhere else. I thought that their fancy camera would tell them exactly where the problem were spotted, like plotting GPS points or something. Heck, my Dad's farm tractor drives itself with GPS positioning, can't the plumbing world use that technology, too?

Yes, they can.  Well, it's not GPS technology, but the camera contains some sort of sending unit that can be located by an above-ground receiver.  We had an outdoor sewer blockage several years ago, and the camera guy used it to locate the line exactly so the plumber could dig up the line and install a clean-out access (our line didn't originally have one - no code inspection here).

[Spiffy]

Update #1: Good News! Our insurance is covering it! I sort of can't believe it, but we got a "second opinion" from a different insurance guy and he declared it coverable. So the cost of jack hammering and the labor of the plumbers will be covered. Not covered is the cost of materials, which will be some new PVC pipes, so probably pretty cheap. Also covered is R&R, which doesn't mean rest and relaxation. We will get none of that during this mess. It means repair or replace. So they will install new flooring in any areas that are damaged during the jackhammering. So in our case probably new ceramic tiles in entrance and laminate in almost the entire house because there are no thresholds until you get to the bedrooms. That includes new moulding and drywall repair if needed and if they have to remove part of the kitchen cabinets, that gets rebuilt too. We have old stick built cabinets that aren't great, but I like them better than new cabinets that you buy from Home Depot and attach to the wall. I think our deductible is $2000. Not sure yet. While the plumbers are here and the water is cut off we are going to have the rest of the pipes lined and pay for that out of pocket.  I have heard that the relining is very expensive, but if it works and we never have a leak again, it is money well spent . I am sure the restoration company is really going to stick it to the insurance company. So when you get your home insurance renewal and the premiums have gone way up, feel free to curse me, because it is my fault!

[acroy]

Update #1: Good News!

Awesome, congratulations!