Author Topic: Please stop “recycling” your plastic  (Read 3343 times)

Ron Scott

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Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« on: February 14, 2025, 03:36:28 AM »
While it has a happy, environment-friendly ring to it I’m concerned we’re simply exporting a problem in a way that actually causes andditonal environmental damage, death, and destruction in the world. It’s another form of NIMBYism—in which the wealthy pat themselves on the back while they screw people they’d rather not have to encounter.

The OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) and UNEP (United Nations Environment Program) have been telling us for years that only 5-9% of recycled plastics are actually reused. The rest is shipped, hundreds of millions of tons at a clip, to Africa, Indonesia, South America, and so on—for the poor to ingest. The net effect is to encourage the ongoing manufacture of the same material…forever.

It’s even worse for electronic devices. Today’s Times piece does a good job of describing the damage (children vomiting blood?), but there’s plenty of other research that describes the scam.

 https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/opinion/trash-recycling-global-waste-trade.html

Recycled cardboard seems to work well. The rest?

I guess I’m left with the notion that those who recycle—and I’ve been guilty—are really hurting others, and that the best way to move forward on a grass-roots level is to stop ignoring the problem—refusing to recycle this stuff—and telling our leaders to confront it head on.




Retire-Canada

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2025, 07:12:48 AM »


This ^^ is from the 2022 annual recycling report for British Columbia. ~98% of recycled plastics are processed in the province. The alternative to recycling the plastic is to put it in a landfill which is not a great option. I'll keep recycling plastics that find their way into our house.

The company doing the recycling --> https://merlinplastics.com/

That said it's far better to not create and consume plastic if you can avoid it in your day to day life. The old Reduce > Reuse > Recycle slogan.

To that end I'd support full lifecycle pricing for products so cheaper items with costly post-service lives are de-incentivized by making people pay the full cost of the item at point of purchase.

Zikoris

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2025, 07:44:41 AM »
I would add that in addition to paper, metal and glass recycling are very good, as they are basically endlessly recyclable.

The best way to reduce plastic is stop buying stuff, the second best way probably buying secondhand products without packaging. Also buying unpackaged base ingredients when grocery shopping, and cooking at home.

mistymoney

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2025, 11:00:35 AM »
The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle - with recyle being the last ditch effort.

Not sure why this is being questioned at all.

I recycle all plastics that I can. But I first try not to buy any in the first place - including food and other packaging. Modern life forces it on you in ways you likely don't even notice until you start trying very hard to not buy any plastic. It is nearly impossible.

So - one area I am trying to reduce plastic containers is in tofu purchases. I do reuse the containers for pet water before putting in recyling. But I try to have 4 tofu based lunch or dinners per week, so it adds up. I'm looking to make my own tofu But guess what? The raw soybeans come in a large plastic bag. I'm currently looking for a large tofu bamboo tofu mold that would hold all tofu needed for the week, and recipes for the okara.

So next step is to grow my own soybeans to make tofu out of! >< - But guess what? will get the seed soybeans in a plastic bag.

But each step in the process will greatly reduce the amount of plastic used.

The other thing I am thinkng is trying to find a manufacture close enough to buy directly if I can without added plastic containers.

On the one hand - I am doing the best I can for mother earth. On the other, I didn't make this world and while I have fought the good fight for 30 years or so, I realize my single impact either way is the tinies of drops in a very large bucket.

mistymoney

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2025, 11:02:12 AM »


This ^^ is from the 2022 annual recycling report for British Columbia. ~98% of recycled plastics are processed in the province. The alternative to recycling the plastic is to put it in a landfill which is not a great option. I'll keep recycling plastics that find their way into our house.

The company doing the recycling --> https://merlinplastics.com/

That said it's far better to not create and consume plastic if you can avoid it in your day to day life. The old Reduce > Reuse > Recycle slogan.

To that end I'd support full lifecycle pricing for products so cheaper items with costly post-service lives are de-incentivized by making people pay the full cost of the item at point of purchase.

Awesome work, Canada!

Under our current administration here in US - I highly doubt any environmental progress is on the table for us, unfortunately.

HPstache

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2025, 12:17:14 PM »
I "recycle" my plastics just so that I don't have to pay to let it fill up my trash can (we pay by the number of trash cans we put out each month).

Cranky

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2025, 12:25:01 PM »
The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle - with recyle being the last ditch effort.

Not sure why this is being questioned at all.

I recycle all plastics that I can. But I first try not to buy any in the first place - including food and other packaging. Modern life forces it on you in ways you likely don't even notice until you start trying very hard to not buy any plastic. It is nearly impossible.

So - one area I am trying to reduce plastic containers is in tofu purchases. I do reuse the containers for pet water before putting in recyling. But I try to have 4 tofu based lunch or dinners per week, so it adds up. I'm looking to make my own tofu But guess what? The raw soybeans come in a large plastic bag. I'm currently looking for a large tofu bamboo tofu mold that would hold all tofu needed for the week, and recipes for the okara.

So next step is to grow my own soybeans to make tofu out of! >< - But guess what? will get the seed soybeans in a plastic bag.

But each step in the process will greatly reduce the amount of plastic used.

The other thing I am thinkng is trying to find a manufacture close enough to buy directly if I can without added plastic containers.

On the one hand - I am doing the best I can for mother earth. On the other, I didn't make this world and while I have fought the good fight for 30 years or so, I realize my single impact either way is the tinies of drops in a very large bucket.

Fresh tofu is so, so good.

But this is an interesting problem! Do you have any sort of bulk store or food co-op in your area? We used to be able to buy 25# of beans in a heavy paper bag, like flour comes in. For that matter, we used to be able to buy bulk tofu out of a tub.

The grocery store is the main source of our plastic waste and it’s really frustrating.

GuitarStv

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2025, 12:26:11 PM »


This ^^ is from the 2022 annual recycling report for British Columbia. ~98% of recycled plastics are processed in the province. The alternative to recycling the plastic is to put it in a landfill which is not a great option. I'll keep recycling plastics that find their way into our house.

The company doing the recycling --> https://merlinplastics.com/

That said it's far better to not create and consume plastic if you can avoid it in your day to day life. The old Reduce > Reuse > Recycle slogan.

To that end I'd support full lifecycle pricing for products so cheaper items with costly post-service lives are de-incentivized by making people pay the full cost of the item at point of purchase.

Interesting that they were able to recycle 2% more rigid plastics than they collected.  :D

RH

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2025, 12:38:10 PM »
Where I am at in WA state, we can no longer recycle glass. We have to throw it out. This is because the wineries can import a wine bottle much cheaper than a local recycled bottle. There is no more market for recycled glass here so the business that used to process it shut down.

Cranky

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2025, 01:19:21 PM »
The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle - with recyle being the last ditch effort.

Not sure why this is being questioned at all.

I recycle all plastics that I can. But I first try not to buy any in the first place - including food and other packaging. Modern life forces it on you in ways you likely don't even notice until you start trying very hard to not buy any plastic. It is nearly impossible.

So - one area I am trying to reduce plastic containers is in tofu purchases. I do reuse the containers for pet water before putting in recyling. But I try to have 4 tofu based lunch or dinners per week, so it adds up. I'm looking to make my own tofu But guess what? The raw soybeans come in a large plastic bag. I'm currently looking for a large tofu bamboo tofu mold that would hold all tofu needed for the week, and recipes for the okara.

So next step is to grow my own soybeans to make tofu out of! >< - But guess what? will get the seed soybeans in a plastic bag.

But each step in the process will greatly reduce the amount of plastic used.

The other thing I am thinkng is trying to find a manufacture close enough to buy directly if I can without added plastic containers.

On the one hand - I am doing the best I can for mother earth. On the other, I didn't make this world and while I have fought the good fight for 30 years or so, I realize my single impact either way is the tinies of drops in a very large bucket.

I have never ordered from them but Azure Standard has soybeans in paper.

jim555

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2025, 03:08:02 PM »
Not even tangentially related to FIRE, this post should be sent to the recycle bin.

Cranky

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2025, 03:47:05 PM »
Not even tangentially related to FIRE, this post should be sent to the recycle bin.

It’s “General Discussion.”

jim555

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2025, 03:53:19 PM »
Correction, the thread should be binned.  Not just a post.  I wasn't clear enough.

mistymoney

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2025, 08:09:05 PM »
The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle - with recyle being the last ditch effort.

Not sure why this is being questioned at all.

I recycle all plastics that I can. But I first try not to buy any in the first place - including food and other packaging. Modern life forces it on you in ways you likely don't even notice until you start trying very hard to not buy any plastic. It is nearly impossible.

So - one area I am trying to reduce plastic containers is in tofu purchases. I do reuse the containers for pet water before putting in recyling. But I try to have 4 tofu based lunch or dinners per week, so it adds up. I'm looking to make my own tofu But guess what? The raw soybeans come in a large plastic bag. I'm currently looking for a large tofu bamboo tofu mold that would hold all tofu needed for the week, and recipes for the okara.

So next step is to grow my own soybeans to make tofu out of! >< - But guess what? will get the seed soybeans in a plastic bag.

But each step in the process will greatly reduce the amount of plastic used.

The other thing I am thinkng is trying to find a manufacture close enough to buy directly if I can without added plastic containers.

On the one hand - I am doing the best I can for mother earth. On the other, I didn't make this world and while I have fought the good fight for 30 years or so, I realize my single impact either way is the tinies of drops in a very large bucket.

I have never ordered from them but Azure Standard has soybeans in paper.
thanks - this place looks awesome!  will see about giving them a try. drop points are pretty far, so would take some coordination.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2025, 08:41:11 PM »
Where I am at in WA state, we can no longer recycle glass. We have to throw it out. This is because the wineries can import a wine bottle much cheaper than a local recycled bottle. There is no more market for recycled glass here so the business that used to process it shut down.

A few years ago one of the Tucson council members started to collect glass at his office. There are now multiple sites. I think it's ground up and used in concrete.

franklin4

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2025, 09:22:01 PM »
This varies a lot by locality and the type of plastic. I live in a city where all of our HDPE milk jugs, etc) is recycled in town, and most of the other plasticswe collect, too. Newspaper and metals are also done in town, glass we ship within state but it is recycled. 

But I used to live in a different city where our plastic was collected, sorted, bailed, and then buried in the landfill. Dirty little secret, but I knew someone at the MURF.

When a community is used to recycling and feels good about it, but the market price of used plastic collapses, what's a city to do? Tell citizens to stop and put plastic or glass or whatever in the trash? And layoff all the people who drive the extra truck to collect the recycling, and those who sort it and send it on its way? The smaller the city the easier that is, but at a certain size that has a big impact on a community and it's easier to keep "recycling" and just raise the garbage rate to cover the cost.

Metal has much more value and there will likely always be a market for that. I read Junkyard Planet from the library recently, it's about the scrap metal trade and is very well done. One tidbit - in the US xmas lights do not get recycled, they get sent to China. The book says initially the plastic was burned off but with time the Chinese figured out how to cut the wire into tiny pieces and separate the materials.

kenner

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2025, 11:55:22 AM »
Where I am at in WA state, we can no longer recycle glass. We have to throw it out. This is because the wineries can import a wine bottle much cheaper than a local recycled bottle. There is no more market for recycled glass here so the business that used to process it shut down.

Same thing happened in CO, although there was an outcry when it happened about how recyclable glass was--how could they call it trash!  So they went back to accepting it in recycling, except the actual end result was that it got ground up and used as a spacer in landfills.  Theoretically some of it is back to being recycled now, but I haven't found anything regarding percentages recently.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2025, 08:57:03 PM »
The key is, as much as possible, to reduce consumption, and then reuse as much as we can as well…

Recycling is the worst of the three, but many people view it as the best because it is the easiest to feel no guilt about.

reeshau

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2025, 06:06:26 AM »
I question the motives of people who try and break a link in the chain.  "Stop recycling; we don't know what to do with it."  "Why buy an electric car?  You have a coal power plant."  While the previous statements may be true at the moment, are consumers always to be the last mover to take action?  Or, should we be prepared for better things?  Change doesn't happen all at once, and resistance to change is often clothed in either "good ol' days" nostalgia or throwing up of hands.

Do you part, whatever you can.  Yes, YES! To reduce, reuse, recycle.  Things aren't perfect, and never will be.  Work toward the rest, too.

But, don't give up.

Cases in point:

PureCycle Technologies has a plant in Ohio and is building another in Georgia for plastic recycling.  Just starting up,  but they spun out of Procter & Gamble, and have them as a customer.

https://www.purecycle.com/

Also, Houston's oldest refinery--opened in 1918--is shutting down.  It will repoen in 2027, to recycle plastics.

Reuse on a plant scale!

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/lyondell-begin-closure-houston-refinery-this-weekend-sources-say-2025-01-22/

mistymoney

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2025, 11:21:56 AM »
I question the motives of people who try and break a link in the chain.  "Stop recycling; we don't know what to do with it."  "Why buy an electric car?  You have a coal power plant."  While the previous statements may be true at the moment, are consumers always to be the last mover to take action?  Or, should we be prepared for better things?  Change doesn't happen all at once, and resistance to change is often clothed in either "good ol' days" nostalgia or throwing up of hands.

Do you part, whatever you can.  Yes, YES! To reduce, reuse, recycle.  Things aren't perfect, and never will be.  Work toward the rest, too.

But, don't give up.

Cases in point:

PureCycle Technologies has a plant in Ohio and is building another in Georgia for plastic recycling.  Just starting up,  but they spun out of Procter & Gamble, and have them as a customer.

https://www.purecycle.com/

Also, Houston's oldest refinery--opened in 1918--is shutting down.  It will repoen in 2027, to recycle plastics.

Reuse on a plant scale!

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/lyondell-begin-closure-houston-refinery-this-weekend-sources-say-2025-01-22/

agree with everything here!

we each can only do what we can. If we do our best - if all of do our best - it will make a huge difference.

Avoid buying plastic at all, including just the containers.

I get a lot of stuff from here:
https://www.bambooswitch.com/

Including plastic free dental floss, which I love! tried a lot of non-forever chem dental floss and none kept my teeth as clean as the chem stuff. But then on a random google for floss found this site. Can get a one time glass of bamboo case for the floss, then just order refills that come in a waxed paper type pocket in a tiny cardboard box. And I was not prepared that it cleaned my teeth better than chembros floss! Such a huge relief.

I also love their coconut shampoo and conditioner. Comes in a solid bar, first time get the metal case, then subsequently, just order refills and again comes in paper and cardboard, no plastic containers and just a one time purchase for the metal holders.

bar soaps are fine, not sure to compare, but haven't bought a lot of regular bar soap. Have used their dish washing brushes, and those seem fine.

Have their french press for coffee, have gotten a few people to switch to their floss, and my daughter - who is very fashionable and into all the latest trends on fashion, makeup, etc. never used the shampoo and condition I sent her because mom is just a crunchy oldster who 1) doesn't understand, and 2) we have completely different hair - until she had some tight financial months and gave it a try. She loved it! and has converted to it as her main shampoo and conditioner. Just saying - that says something about. She does have an inner crunch she has been fighting, so there is that.

But anyway - first off is to eliminate the plastic where ever you can.
I have contacted companies about their plastic packaging and/or to ask about alternative versions of their products.
I do buy non-plastic, and non-plastic packed when I can and use as little of the other as possible.
I will opt for products that are recyled, partially recycled or in recycled packaging when I can.
I reuse, or pass on what I can
I recycle at the end.

I understand that I lose control there - I don't have a recyling plant. I don't have a choice of recylers to pick the best or whatever.

I do what I can, when I can and I try to make the best choices for me, and the world. If the city recylcing program or the contracted recylers are letting us/the planet down - I can try to advocate there, but meanwhile I continue to do my part.

mistymoney

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2025, 11:36:02 AM »

I have contacted companies about their plastic packaging and/or to ask about alternative versions of their products.
I do buy non-plastic, and non-plastic packed when I can and use as little of the other as possible.
I will opt for products that are recyled, partially recycled or in recycled packaging when I can.


To follow on to my own post, consumers should not be the ones that have to lead this, but it looks like we are the only ones who can.

For those of us consumers that have the means - we need to make those choices even if the cost is higher. To pay more for the non-plastic or non-plastic packed alternatives. To pay more for the recyled over virgin plastic products/packaging.

We also need to be very careful about the information/misinformation out there. There is a completely biodegradable temporary plastic alternative made out of corn I think, when I try to find out more about via googling there is nothing but negative info - principly that it takes 30 years to break down completely. Like that is a deal breaker! and it is restated in hundreds of places!

Who cares if you can't backyard compost it. 30 years sounds ideal because if it broke down in 2-3 years then it would like not be good for many applications. The alternative is out there already, and it is being squashed.

New plastic needs to stop being made. existing plastic needs to be recycled or sequestered out of the environment if we can get the alternatives up and running.

The microplastics are in our food, they are in our blood and they are in are brains. The time for passivity is over. It isn't just an eyesore swirling in the ocean, it is an emergency.



Ron Scott

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2025, 11:57:43 AM »

I have contacted companies about their plastic packaging and/or to ask about alternative versions of their products.
I do buy non-plastic, and non-plastic packed when I can and use as little of the other as possible.
I will opt for products that are recyled, partially recycled or in recycled packaging when I can.


To follow on to my own post, consumers should not be the ones that have to lead this, but it looks like we are the only ones who can.

For those of us consumers that have the means - we need to make those choices even if the cost is higher. To pay more for the non-plastic or non-plastic packed alternatives. To pay more for the recyled over virgin plastic products/packaging.

We also need to be very careful about the information/misinformation out there. There is a completely biodegradable temporary plastic alternative made out of corn I think, when I try to find out more about via googling there is nothing but negative info - principly that it takes 30 years to break down completely. Like that is a deal breaker! and it is restated in hundreds of places!

Who cares if you can't backyard compost it. 30 years sounds ideal because if it broke down in 2-3 years then it would like not be good for many applications. The alternative is out there already, and it is being squashed.

New plastic needs to stop being made. existing plastic needs to be recycled or sequestered out of the environment if we can get the alternatives up and running.

The microplastics are in our food, they are in our blood and they are in are brains. The time for passivity is over. It isn't just an eyesore swirling in the ocean, it is an emergency.

I hear you but the real choices to consumers who understand the problem and want to help seems to be a) recycle and poison a poor country, b) refuse to recycle to send a message to your own country that you won’t play the game, or c) stop buying things that are packaged or made with any plastics (good luck).

Cranky

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2025, 10:11:49 AM »

I have contacted companies about their plastic packaging and/or to ask about alternative versions of their products.
I do buy non-plastic, and non-plastic packed when I can and use as little of the other as possible.
I will opt for products that are recyled, partially recycled or in recycled packaging when I can.


To follow on to my own post, consumers should not be the ones that have to lead this, but it looks like we are the only ones who can.

For those of us consumers that have the means - we need to make those choices even if the cost is higher. To pay more for the non-plastic or non-plastic packed alternatives. To pay more for the recyled over virgin plastic products/packaging.

We also need to be very careful about the information/misinformation out there. There is a completely biodegradable temporary plastic alternative made out of corn I think, when I try to find out more about via googling there is nothing but negative info - principly that it takes 30 years to break down completely. Like that is a deal breaker! and it is restated in hundreds of places!

Who cares if you can't backyard compost it. 30 years sounds ideal because if it broke down in 2-3 years then it would like not be good for many applications. The alternative is out there already, and it is being squashed.

New plastic needs to stop being made. existing plastic needs to be recycled or sequestered out of the environment if we can get the alternatives up and running.

The microplastics are in our food, they are in our blood and they are in are brains. The time for passivity is over. It isn't just an eyesore swirling in the ocean, it is an emergency.

I recently did a Tinker Crate project box with the grandkid (and it kinda pushed my engineeryskills to the limit lol) and was interested to see that the many little plastic bags were marked “home compostable”! So I tossed them into the compost, which was great. We do actually pay for commercial composting, though.  And our church uses little “plastic” compostable cups for communion, which do go to the compost. So there are some options in play.

Laura33

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2025, 02:37:59 PM »
The OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) and UNEP (United Nations Environment Program) have been telling us for years that only 5-9% of recycled plastics are actually reused. The rest is shipped, hundreds of millions of tons at a clip, to Africa, Indonesia, South America, and so on—for the poor to ingest. The net effect is to encourage the ongoing manufacture of the same material…forever.

. . . .

I guess I’m left with the notion that those who recycle—and I’ve been guilty—are really hurting others, and that the best way to move forward on a grass-roots level is to stop ignoring the problem—refusing to recycle this stuff—and telling our leaders to confront it head on.

I guess I'm unclear on the proposed alternatives that we want our leaders to impose.  Just throw stuff out?  It can go into landfills or incinerators, and when there is enough resistance in the US to building more landfills, there will be some poor country willing to take our trash for a fee, just like they now take stuff to recycle.  I'm not sure how throwing away even more stuff is better for those other countries than trying to recycle some part of it.

As others have said, the problem is the amount moreso than the "thing" itself -- it's that we generate so. much. crap. that we have to outsource it to other, poorer countries, whether for recycling or disposal or whatever else.  And "buy less stuff" has gotten no politician anywhere at any time in history.   

You can ban plastics, sure.  And then what?  We package everything in cardboard?  That's not particularly weatherproof, nor is it airtight to slow down food spoilage.  It also cannot be recycled indefinitely, and manufacturing more requires a lot of trees and a whole bunch of not-particularly-environmentally-friendly processing.  We can use metal, go back to the days of the tin can, but metal is not exactly low-impact itself -- mining, processing, forging, all those necessary steps are fairly dirty businesses, and the transportation isn't exactly impact-free.  Plus it is quite a bit more expensive (and it's heavier than plastic, so more fuel for transportation).  So now prices rise, and everyone gets voted out of office again.

Every choice comes with tradeoffs.  For most of human history, food shortages were the biggest risk.  Advances like refrigeration, canning, and, yes, plastics were a godsend to make food less perishable and thus better able to be transported from where it's grown to where it's needed.  Plastics have the advantage of being really, really cheap, too.  All of that has helped decrease the share of income the average American spends on food quite significantly -- and has allowed access to better-quality food to wider swaths of the population. 

Of course, that's not our problem now -- now it's the reverse, we've got waaaaayyy too much crap of all varieties, including food, and we could all do with a lot less.  Now we'd probably be better off if we did force folks to use metal, wood, and glass, because higher prices would mean people could buy less crap, so we'd make less crap, and thus generate less waste.  Of course, that is also the political non-starter, as this past election demonstrates. 

But the point is that if you want to find a practicable solution to a problem, you need to understand why we have this problem in the first place.  Plastics were and are useful and cheap, and those needs don't go away just because we know a lot more about the downsides now.  So any solution has to figure out how to achieve those same things, preferably with fewer downsides. 

My hope rests less in regulation and more in ingenuity.  There are folks out there right now working on alternatives -- like the compostable stuff mentioned above.  Or one of my clients is testing out a process that would actually break the plastic down into its component chemicals, which could then be used to make new, fresh plastic, without the degradation in quality you get through current re-use options.  I hope it works, because it would be massively cool to basically turn plastic back into the raw materials to make plastic.  But if it doesn't, there are other ideas.  IMO, we should be investing in this kind of research.  I mean, just imagine if those giant piles of waste were instead actually useful as feedstock to make something else.  Then you solve the waste problem and minimize the amount of virgin raw materials you need to produce as well. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2025, 03:24:33 PM »
Not even tangentially related to FIRE, this post should be sent to the recycle bin.

If you think this thread should not be here, suggest it be moved to Off Topic.


Ron Scott

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2025, 06:20:10 AM »
The OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) and UNEP (United Nations Environment Program) have been telling us for years that only 5-9% of recycled plastics are actually reused. The rest is shipped, hundreds of millions of tons at a clip, to Africa, Indonesia, South America, and so on—for the poor to ingest. The net effect is to encourage the ongoing manufacture of the same material…forever.

. . . .

I guess I’m left with the notion that those who recycle—and I’ve been guilty—are really hurting others, and that the best way to move forward on a grass-roots level is to stop ignoring the problem—refusing to recycle this stuff—and telling our leaders to confront it head on.

I guess I'm unclear on the proposed alternatives that we want our leaders to impose.  Just throw stuff out?  It can go into landfills or incinerators, and when there is enough resistance in the US to building more landfills, there will be some poor country willing to take our trash for a fee, just like they now take stuff to recycle.  I'm not sure how throwing away even more stuff is better for those other countries than trying to recycle some part of it.

As others have said, the problem is the amount moreso than the "thing" itself -- it's that we generate so. much. crap. that we have to outsource it to other, poorer countries, whether for recycling or disposal or whatever else.  And "buy less stuff" has gotten no politician anywhere at any time in history.   

You can ban plastics, sure.  And then what?  We package everything in cardboard?  That's not particularly weatherproof, nor is it airtight to slow down food spoilage.  It also cannot be recycled indefinitely, and manufacturing more requires a lot of trees and a whole bunch of not-particularly-environmentally-friendly processing.  We can use metal, go back to the days of the tin can, but metal is not exactly low-impact itself -- mining, processing, forging, all those necessary steps are fairly dirty businesses, and the transportation isn't exactly impact-free.  Plus it is quite a bit more expensive (and it's heavier than plastic, so more fuel for transportation).  So now prices rise, and everyone gets voted out of office again.

Every choice comes with tradeoffs.  For most of human history, food shortages were the biggest risk.  Advances like refrigeration, canning, and, yes, plastics were a godsend to make food less perishable and thus better able to be transported from where it's grown to where it's needed.  Plastics have the advantage of being really, really cheap, too.  All of that has helped decrease the share of income the average American spends on food quite significantly -- and has allowed access to better-quality food to wider swaths of the population. 

Of course, that's not our problem now -- now it's the reverse, we've got waaaaayyy too much crap of all varieties, including food, and we could all do with a lot less.  Now we'd probably be better off if we did force folks to use metal, wood, and glass, because higher prices would mean people could buy less crap, so we'd make less crap, and thus generate less waste.  Of course, that is also the political non-starter, as this past election demonstrates. 

But the point is that if you want to find a practicable solution to a problem, you need to understand why we have this problem in the first place.  Plastics were and are useful and cheap, and those needs don't go away just because we know a lot more about the downsides now.  So any solution has to figure out how to achieve those same things, preferably with fewer downsides. 

My hope rests less in regulation and more in ingenuity.  There are folks out there right now working on alternatives -- like the compostable stuff mentioned above.  Or one of my clients is testing out a process that would actually break the plastic down into its component chemicals, which could then be used to make new, fresh plastic, without the degradation in quality you get through current re-use options.  I hope it works, because it would be massively cool to basically turn plastic back into the raw materials to make plastic.  But if it doesn't, there are other ideas.  IMO, we should be investing in this kind of research.  I mean, just imagine if those giant piles of waste were instead actually useful as feedstock to make something else.  Then you solve the waste problem and minimize the amount of virgin raw materials you need to produce as well.

Not sure where we disagree. I think your idea is fine. To summarize:

Shipping plastics from the developed world to poor countries: BAD
Developing tech to actually recycle: GOOD

uniwelder

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2025, 10:10:11 AM »
Recycling plastic bags is definitely a thing.  https://nextrex.com  is the program where you see those big bins by the entrance of the grocery store.  They take any kind of plastic film--- bags, bubble wrap, food packaging, etc.  It becomes wood/plastic composite decking boards.  I don't have data on what percentage gets rejected, which would be nice to see.

edited to add-- Trex says 95% of the plastic used in their boards comes from recycled material.  This amounts to 400 million pounds of plastic per year.  I imagine a lot of that is coming from commercial waste because I can't imagine getting all that from grocery drop off bins.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 10:48:03 AM by uniwelder »

uniwelder

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2025, 10:35:36 AM »
Not even tangentially related to FIRE, this post should be sent to the recycle bin.

If you think this thread should not be here, suggest it be moved to Off Topic.

MMM was founded in part on early retirement, but also environmentalism and reducing consumer waste.  This topic definitely belongs in the general discussion area.

reeshau

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2025, 10:52:41 AM »
edited to add-- Trex says 95% of the plastic used in their boards comes from recycled material.  This amounts to 400 million pounds of plastic per year.  I imagine a lot of that is coming from commercial waste because I can't imagine getting all that from grocery drop off bins.

This has been quite a journey for Trex.  Leading up to the 2008 financial crisis, they were using virgin material, and got hit with high oil prices, too.  Just before the crisis itself killed building activity.  They have a strong incentive to not be tied to the oil market.

I remember the same price impact affecting Yankee Candle, too, causing them to move away from paraffin.  I don't know how successful they are, though.

use2betrix

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Re: Please stop “recycling” your plastic
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2025, 01:59:36 PM »
Not sure where we disagree. I think your idea is fine. To summarize:

Shipping plastics from the developed world to poor countries: BAD
Developing tech to actually recycle: GOOD

The issue is that you created a thread with a blanket call to stop recycling plastics. Where do you think companies like TREX, or the previously mentioned LyondellBasell converted refinery to a molecular recycling technology plant, are going to get their feedstocks?

I can promise you, one thing holding back new recycling technologies and expansion of recycling systems is a lack of available and sorted plastics to be recycled. You can’t justify a $1BN recycling technology project if you don’t have the proper plastic products to recycle.