Please help me help my parents

[dblaace]

A Durable POA and/or Durable POA for Health Care are a good options to look into. They only goes into effect if the person becomes incapacitated.

[rmorris50]

A Durable POA and/or Durable POA for Health Care are a good options to look into. They only goes into effect if the person becomes incapacitated.

Amazingly I was able to get my mother to go to a lawyer and have a POA and Health Care agent set up. The lawyer advised her to NOT have the POA be springing, because doctors will hesitate to declare her incapacitated unless it’s clear cut, and with slow mental decline that’s tricky.

Also, my mom only literally has a few thousand to her name that will run out in a year. So really the POA is to handle her SS and Medicare/Medicaid I guess.


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[Zamboni]

Zamboni, please first thing Monday morning pick up the phone and call the social services agency in the county where your parents live. They likely have a division that focuses on helping their elderly residents. The social workers there can give you advice and also check in with your parents to assess their needs. Their county may have some good professional or volunteer resources to refer you to, to help figure out how best to handle your parents' affairs.

Calling the county social services to learn about available programs is a good idea. Thank you for this suggestion!

For example, if there is any sort of "affordable senior housing" waiting list near where they live, then I'd like to find out about it and get them on the list. Honestly if they were able to get into truly affordable senior housing, with a little community of other seniors like I see when I deliver Meals on Wheels, then I think they could keep doing their hobbies and activities and be actually retired and be happy and less stressed out. The types of things they like to do are exactly the types of things that are social activities in these communities.

On the bright side, my Dad's parents bought into a retirement community that is not unlike some of the affordable senior housing apartment buildings that are peppered here and there. . . so I think he may accept it as a viable option because he saw that it was good for his own Mom, in particular.

I don't know how Step Mom would feel about it at all, but I suspect maybe she'd feel relieved? Trying to manage it all by herself is definitely weighing her down.

Right now they definitely think they can never retire. That line of thinking is driving some of their decisions. But unfortunately retirement is not always a choice. Lots of people retire because they can no longer effectively work due to health.

[iluvzbeach]

A Durable POA and/or Durable POA for Health Care are a good options to look into. They only goes into effect if the person becomes incapacitated.

This isn’t entirely correct. The person can choose how they want it to work, either anytime or upon incapacitation. It is generally better for all involved if it’s valid upon signing vs. requiring incapacitation.

[dang1]

someone figures where they can stay after their house gets foreclosed, and help them apply for section 8, snap, etc

[coppertop]

Personal family anecdote:  My mother's family was dirt poor in the Great Depression.  After WWII, my grandfather got a decent job, and my grandparents inherited a house from a g-grandparent with the requirement that they pay the mortgage.  Well, my grandmother did not pay the mortgage or any other bill regularly; money sifted through her hands as if it were sand, and they had bill collectors knocking on their door constantly (this was the 1940s/50s).  My mom was 18 years old and got three jobs to keep a roof over their and her younger siblings' heads.  She'd get the bills paid up, Gram would swear they were all paid and there were no more...then Mom would find more.  This went on for years until my Mom married.  They got into bad trouble again and foreclosure was imminent and my Mom could no longer help because she was a SAHM with small children, so my aunt and her husband stepped in, sold their house and bought a larger house where they all lived.  My grandmother went to her grave never being able to handle money, and died at 93.  Yep, that was just the way she was. 

[Zamboni]

^Yikes!

That is a cautionary tale indeed.

Playing with Fire's journal is the best cautionary tale I can imagine. Any creative solutions that are suggested that involve any entanglement of my finances or my brother's finances with my parents finances need to be completely off the table. If it is suggested, I'll have to go with "I'm sorry, but that is just not going to work for me." Which is my polite version of "No." is a complete sentence.

[kite]

Isn't it possible to assign a lawyer or some similar person as POA?  Given your description of circumstances, it might not be wise to get involved even as POA if you want to retain your sanity.  An objective non-relative would be best, if this is possible. 

I agree with others' advice to stay out of it completely.  They will either figure it out on their own, or they won't.  Chances are good that they will come to some resolution before they have to live in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Yes, it can be anyone. 
My spouse is POA for a neighbor. Attorneys WILL do this, but they need to get paid.  IMO it really should be someone with whom you have regular-ish contact.

[Zamboni]

Thanks, everyone, for your stories, cautionary tales, and various ideas.

Update for today

The good:
Dad and Step Mom's friend convinced them that a durable POA is a good idea for them. They already have medical POA sorted out.

The bad:
Same friend definitely declined to serve as POA for them. It's looking more and more like it will be yours truly, which is not ideal, but there doesn't seem to be another reasonable option. Given their declining health and probably future need for nursing care, someone has to do it.

The ugly:
My brother is losing sleep over all of this. He says he can't get the past week out of his head. Their entitled behavior and lies followed by manipulative crocodile tears and then hostility over him not gleefully forking over his money has churned up all kinds of negative memories from when he was a kid :-(

[Dicey]

Thanks, everyone, for your stories, cautionary tales, and various ideas.

Update for today

The good:
Dad and Step Mom's friend convinced them that a durable POA is a good idea for them. They already have medical POA sorted out.

The bad:
Same friend definitely declined to serve as POA for them. It's looking more and more like it will be yours truly, which is not ideal, but there doesn't seem to be another reasonable option. Given their declining health and probably future need for nursing care, someone has to do it.

The ugly:
My brother is losing sleep over all of this. He says he can't get the past week out of his head. Their entitled behavior and lies followed by manipulative crocodile tears and then hostility over him not gleefully forking over his money has churned up all kinds of negative memories from when he was a kid :-(

Good thing he has you for a sister. It could be much, much worse.

[Zamboni]

^Awww, that's very nice of you!

I have the best brother on the planet. Seriously. He is one of the finest people I know. He's funny and competent and honest and kind. He also married a great lady, which makes me really happy for him.

It's a shame that my Dad/Step Mom don't seem to understand that about him. They are too wrapped up in whether or not other people are willing to be their piggy bank at the moment. Maybe someday they will see it? Right now they are consumed by wallowing around the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and can't foster relationships based upon unconditional love with their children, I suppose.

The only thing I can think to do is tell Dad/SM myself, after I've looked through their books as they have requested, that I have specifically advised my brother and his wife to not give them any money. I will gently tell them that their finances are too far gone for him to rescue them. It will be the truth. After reading PwFUK's journal, it seems important to me to prevent my dear brother from falling into the snare of old lady tears that OH fell into.

I break bad news to people pretty regularly and it seems likely that I have become good at doing it gently but firmly. It has definitely made me more immune to tears than most people. Ugh, no one warned me my day job would require very high crying tolerance!

In addition, I learned infinite "crying baby" endurance thanks to #1 son (love you and your big pipes, son!) Sometimes all you can do is pat that baby gently on the back and calmly tell them you love them while they scream and scream. Eventually they wear out and stop screaming and just look at you quizzically. Gonna channel all that skill at my folks, as needed.

Usually my brother is really busy working long hours and volunteering and taking care of his family, but by coincidence he is about to go on a long-planned retreat with his guy friends. He hasn't seen some of them since before the COVID shutdown. Hopefully that will be regenerative for him.

[mspym]

Good plan. I’d recommend you give your brother a heads-up first before you tackle your parents because it would suck if you weren’t presenting a unified front. Good luck with the Sad Adult Babies.

[iluvzbeach]

Zamboni, might I suggest that you include something along the lines of “After evaluating your finances, I’ve determined there are multiple steps/actions you can take that will dramatically improve your situation and, therefore, I’ve advised brother not to provide any financial assistance. Here are the actions you could take and the results I anticipate if you take those actions…” It’s very kind of you to be willing to be the bad cop in this scenario, especially if you think your brother would have trouble doing so, I think adding the piece about why you’ve advised him against it puts the responsibility back on D/SM to take the necessary action (or not.)

[Cassie]

Your dad and stepmom definitely have big problems and you can’t solve them. It will just cause resentment all around. My parents were good at taking care of themselves financially and also having their paperwork done. I have done the same for my kids. It’s important for you and your brother to support one another through this difficult journey.

[Zamboni]

Zamboni, might I suggest that you include something along the lines of “After evaluating your finances, I’ve determined there are multiple steps/actions you can take that will dramatically improve your situation and, therefore, I’ve advised brother not to provide any financial assistance. Here are the actions you could take and the results I anticipate if you take those actions…” It’s very kind of you to be willing to be the bad cop in this scenario, especially if you think your brother would have trouble doing so, I think adding the piece about why you’ve advised him against it puts the responsibility back on D/SM to take the necessary action (or not.)

That's a good way to put it. Thank you for the wording.

It just seems like I'm the best person to be the bad guy because it won't bother me much. Also I identify better with their situation. I've definitely personally made some money mistakes, more than one time, such as some that resulted in my recent "Digging myself out of an ugly debt hole" thread. I've been divorced and had the previous bad judgement to entangle myself financially with people with very serious and enduring addiction problems.

I've had to learn that addicts will come back and bite you despite their promises, and they periodically cause chaos that has potential to destroy people around them. I hate to label someone like that, and I hold onto hope that people can grow and learn and change for the better sometimes, but that is my life experience. Learning how to protect oneself from the chaos and fallout created by an addict you love is part of my life experience.

My dear brother has historically been more prudent, and he has been married to a type A+ money "wizard" (thank you for the term, @Playing with Fire UK ) since his 20's. Even though he has tried to be kind, I think for that reason Dad/StepMom take even benign and straightforward comments he mades as judgmental. Which has led to crying and carrying on because he was "mean." (Which he isn't and wasn't). I guess, from Dad/SM's perspective, it is mean to say no to ridiculous requests. To also ask "I don't understand how this happened, so will you please explain exactly what happened so I can understand? Is this the only debt, or is there more?" They can't even claim he made faces or rolled his eyes, because it has all been over the phone. But yet they have decided to be mad at him I guess? They will get over it.

He has also helped them quite a bit in the past. Not directly with money, but with massive home repairs/remodels for which he footed the bill. On the order of tens of thousands of dollars. This set up more of an expectation in their heads I guess.

I used to not understand the phrase "No good deed goes unpunished." I remember the first time someone said that to me, I was like "Huh?"

[Zamboni]

Your dad and stepmom definitely have big problems and you can’t solve them. It will just cause resentment all around. My parents were good at taking care of themselves financially and also having their paperwork done. I have done the same for my kids. It’s important for you and your brother to support one another through this difficult journey.

Yes, I think me and my brother supporting each other should be the main goal here. Any action I take towards Dad/SM's problems is secondary. Brother has definitely supported me, and my son, through some pretty terrible times in our lives already.

[iluvzbeach]

Zamboni, I can relate to quite a bit of what you describe in terms of experiences. I am an only child, so did not have the benefit (or potential burden) of having a sibling to navigate through the situation. It’s so good you have each other and that the relationship is a positive, healthy one.

For me, when my father passed away, it hit me hard that all hope was lost that he’d ever change. TBH, I didn’t mourn him as much as I mourned the finality of the loss of hope for things ever being different. Deep down I always thought he might, even as we were bailing him out to the tune of $$$$ his final year of life. A therapist I spoke with eloquently let me know it was magical thinking on my part to believe there was ever a chance he’d change, after decade upon decade of living like he had.

It’s so tough.

[Laura33]

Now I need to figure out how to best navigate their clearly stated expectations that we will fix it.

First, I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

Second, I am in favor of a very direct approach.  What's wrong with just saying "I am not in a position to do that"? 

FWIW, I would not push to sell the house, because I would assume that the worst thing will happen and they will lose everything, and it is much much harder to boot someone out of a house they own than it is to evict a renter who can't pay the rent.

Also, personally, I'd run like hell if asked to be POA in that scenario.  It seems pretty clear that your parents interpret "POA" to mean "someone who's going to take financial responsibility for me," which means you'll be the bad guy the second you attempt to limit them/refuse to provide the extra funds they want.  So if you have the option to run away from it, unless/until you have solid reason to believe they will follow your advice, do it.  OTOH, if you're stuck with the role (because you need to protect your brother, say), then be very, very clear up front -- and repeatedly as necessary -- that you are offering advice but can't fix their problems for them.

[BlueHouse]

Hey Zamboni,
I'm not quite caught up on this thread yet, but have you asked your parents if you can help? 

I am 100% in charge of my mom's finances and have been for over a decade.  She WANTED to relinquish control, but also still wanted to feel as if she had some control.  No problem.  I just started doing things, then told her about it and in the beginning asked a lot more until she just finally opted out altogether.  It sounds as if your dad has already opted out, so if you can get Stepmom to let you in a bit, she may be more open than you think. 

By the way, when I first took over my mom's finances, she was in considerable debt too, and had been told she was getting mandatory retirement.  She was still in a position to pay off tens of thousands in CC debt, so we made a plan, I graphed it out, showed her progress, and suddenly she wanted to participate in paying off MORE than what I had scheduled. 

She has complete dementia now, but because I've been her "financial manager" for so long, she has no worries about what she doesn't know.  Every once in a while, she'll ask "do I have any money left?"

Anyway, my point is that some people really don't want the responsibility of finances and will gladly hand it over.  Maybe make the offer to at least get access to everything you need to see to start making the hard decisions. 

Good luck.

[Zamboni]

^Yes, I asked. The response I got was kind of a lukewarm version of "we are open to you looking at what we have."

My Dad seems only on board with SM and me "figuring it out." He really has no idea what is going on with their money, but trusts her and doesn't really trust anyone else I don't think. It may be because he has been so dependent upon her for so long. He definitely does love her. SM doesn't want to give up the reins I don't think. She complains about having to do everything, but she also likes being in charge of everything. Not going to wrestle control out of her hands.

What they really want is for relatives to just give them money to cover for their mistakes and monthly income shortfalls so they can keep doing things the way they always have. Probably pretty normal.

I also would like a wealthy benefactor who gives me money on demand but never asks questions about anything . . . where do I sign up for that?

[Josiecat]

They do need a Dave Ramsey type plan and they need to learn to live on a BUDGET.  Cutting out all unnecessary expenditures  and selling what they can before anyone gives them any $$.

[G-dog]

Zamboni, I can relate to quite a bit of what you describe in terms of experiences. I am an only child, so did not have the benefit (or potential burden) of having a sibling to navigate through the situation. It’s so good you have each other and that the relationship is a positive, healthy one.

For me, when my father passed away, it hit me hard that all hope was lost that he’d ever change. TBH, I didn’t mourn him as much as I mourned the finality of the loss of hope for things ever being different. Deep down I always thought he might, even as we were bailing him out to the tune of $$$$ his final year of life. A therapist I spoke with eloquently let me know it was magical thinking on my part to believe there was ever a chance he’d change, after decade upon decade of living like he had.

It’s so tough.

This^ it’s very common to mourn the relationship you wished you could have.

@Zamboni - has your brother ever gotten therapy to help him deal with his relationship and history with your parents, etc?  It might help him to see that saying “no” is the kindest thing he can do for them.

[Villanelle]

I'm pleased to see yo using the terms 'addict' and 'addition' because in nearly all ways, the behaviors, outcomes, and solutions are the same as for a drug or alcohol addict.  They don't want to stop using; they want someone to do things that help them keep using.  They lash out, often cruelly and very adeptly, if anyone tries to get them to truly change their behavior.  The only option they want to consider is having someone else enable them.  When people refuse, they get mean, angry, scared, irrational, and emotionally manipulative.

Your brother (and maybe you) might even benefit from watching a few episodes of "intervention".  I have mixed feelings about the show because I question whether it is manipulative, or informative, or a method of assistance (or some mix of all 3).  But the behaviors you see on the show will be very similar to the ones from your parents, and as they get more desperate and feel their enablers slipping away, it will likely escalate.  The only difference is that instead of going out and buying meth, they will go out and buy green tea or a pretty sweater or new golf clubs.  So they won't be directly killing themselves, but they will be getting another fix and changing nothing about their behaviors.

They make promises, they propose concessions (like being open to you "looking at what they have"), but they never make meaningful change unless they absolutely have to, which means rock bottom. 

Addicts are experts at manipulation.  They have to be.  It isn't personal.  It never is.  It's about them.  Remind yourself and your brother of that, early and often.

I'm sorry. 

[Zamboni]

I'm not sure I'll ever make it through an entire episode of intervention. It just hits too close to home I guess. The amount of alcohol and drugs some people can ingest and somehow stay alive is amazing.

Thank you for the advice to keep them in their house in case their credit cart crashes. They definitely want to stay in their house. My Dad has mobility issues and can barely shuffle along at this point. No stairs. Can't get into an SUV. Their ranch-style house on a very flat lot is therefore a good fit for them.

It's really a shame that they aren't almost done paying off this house, but I suppose using the old homestead as a piggy bank in quite common in the US, and they fell for all of the pitches to do it.

So here's a thought I had: credit freezes.
Should I do that for them?
I had a credit freeze on for awhile due to an attempt at identity theft. It pretty much eliminated offers of new credit cards and home equity lines and personal loans coming in the mail. A big part of their issue is lack of impulse control, and a credit freeze would cut down on the incessant advertising of credit to them.
Having credit frozen also would have kept them from taking on a very ill-advised, high pressure sales pitch for a home repair loan. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that, ever.

Nobody should loan them money, so I would feel no guilt doing this. In my opinion any loans that get at this point are purely predatory, because they cannot pay anyone back.

What do you think?

[Catbert]

If they agree, freezing their credit is a great idea.  If they are technology impaired that means they might need your help to unfreeze it.  A bit of time and impulse control built in.

[Metalcat]

I'm not sure I'll ever make it through an entire episode of intervention. It just hits too close to home I guess. The amount of alcohol and drugs some people can ingest and somehow stay alive is amazing.

Thank you for the advice to keep them in their house in case their credit cart crashes. They definitely want to stay in their house. My Dad has mobility issues and can barely shuffle along at this point. No stairs. Can't get into an SUV. Their ranch-style house on a very flat lot is therefore a good fit for them.

It's really a shame that they aren't almost done paying off this house, but I suppose using the old homestead as a piggy bank in quite common in the US, and they fell for all of the pitches to do it.

So here's a thought I had: credit freezes.
Should I do that for them?
I had a credit freeze on for awhile due to an attempt at identity theft. It pretty much eliminated offers of new credit cards and home equity lines and personal loans coming in the mail. A big part of their issue is lack of impulse control, and a credit freeze would cut down on the incessant advertising of credit to them.
Having credit frozen also would have kept them from taking on a very ill-advised, high pressure sales pitch for a home repair loan. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that, ever.

Nobody should loan them money, so I would feel no guilt doing this. In my opinion any loans that get at this point are purely predatory, because they cannot pay anyone back.

What do you think?

I think you listened to all of our stories and then promptly forgot all of the wisdom, lol.

You can politely suggest they consider a credit freeze and maybe offer to help them figure out how to do it if they don't know how to themselves, but even just the language you are using of "should I do that for them?" is indicative of a problem.

The only thing you can do for them is provide them knowledge support if they want it from you. That's it.

You don't have the power or right to "do that for them." As for whether you want to suggest it to them, that entirely depends on how involved you want to be as an advice giver to people who don't seem to actually want advice.

[Zamboni]

Yeah, I know. You are right, of course.

[Metalcat]

Yeah, I know. You are right, of course.

Just know I say it with zero judgement.

I did the exact same thing. My therapist admonished me more than once.

I facepunch you with love.

[Zamboni]

It's okay.

My therapist face punches me about every other time I see her. She really is sympathetic, but she is also always unsurprised by what some of the people around me do that upsets me. She reminds me that I shouldn't expect any different because they've already shown me who they are.

I take it in stride.
 

[Zamboni]

And now SM is reporting a problem with their car. She says they will need to fix it before I get there if I am going to use their car. So I reminded her (for the third time) that I will be picking up a rental car from the airport.

And she wants me to be her PoA, but she wants to be PoA for my Dad herself. She didn't mention what he wants, just that this is how she wants it set up.

I don't know what the legal implications are of having a PoA "chain of control" like that for my Dad, because that it what it comes down to I guess. As far as I know everything they have is joint financially, so this arrangement doesn't make sense to me. But she has definitely already signed legal documents (loan applications) with his name that he has never even had put before him anyway. Of this I am certain, because I have seen some documents that he didn't know about.

It hasn't even been a week since all of this started up, and already I don't really want to help them anymore. Sad, isn't it? You all predicted it, wise forumites.

[former player]

I know that there are people here saying "you need a POA" but really, you don't.

Your father and step-mother are both still working and earning.  It is highly likely that both would pass the test for being legally competent to act in their own financial affairs.  And as long as they are legally competent to act for themselves they are legally competent to ask you to act for them.   So if on this visit your father and step-mother ask you to eg. sell some of their possessions to pay bills, you can do that without getting a POA.

Wher a POA comes in useful is when a person (the "principal") is no longer capable of acting for themselves in financial or legal matters.  If they can't act for themselves in financial or legal matters then legally speaking they can't ask anyone else to act for them either.  So they give permission at an earlier date when they did still have legal capacity, and the POA is worded so that it continues in force even after the principal has lost capacity.

The problem you would have is that the existence of a POA doesn't stop the principal from continuing to act for themselves, or from stopping the POA from doing something they don't like.  So however the POAs are arranged, your father and step-mother could carry on spending money and you as POA can't stop it, and you as POA can try to take actions to sort things out, by paying bills, stopping credit or selling possessions and your father and step-mother can stop you doing that by stopping your acting or contradicting any orders you give eg to stop credit.

The only thing that would give you the ability to take charge in this situation and sort it out would be a guardianship, which would give you total control over their finances.  But you do not want that, and it would mean going to court and you wouldn't even get it if you did.

So why are people here saying you need a POA?  If your father and step-mother do become legally incapable of acting then a POA signed now would allow you to act for them then.  That would mean that you could make their finances nice and neat and tidy at that stage, selling their house and belongings and paying debts.  But I'm not sure what the advantage is to you at that stage: you say there will be nothing to inherit and not enough money to pay all the debts, so all you would be doing at that point is working on behalf of all the banks and credit card companies that have lent money so that they can get some of it back.  Let the banks and credit card companies do that work for themselves.

And would you being POA at that stage help your father and step mother?  If they are legally incapable of managing that probably means going into some sort of sheltered accommodation or home, paid for with any pension or social security income plus medicaid.  The fact that they are leaving a tangle of property and debt behind isn't good but by that stage is largely irrelevant.

I think your step-mother thinks that you having a POA is a magic solution to all her problems, that you will be able to make everything right and anything you do that doesn't go right or is something she doesn't want can be blamed on you.  And given that it is obvious that she has and will commit fraud as long as she has any ability to act you should have nothing to do, legally speaking, with any of it.

[slappy]

I haven't read all the responses but I've read enough to know that you and I are in almost the exact situation. We did the financial and medical POA. Once that was done, MIL deferred all finances to me. Like yours, she had terrible credit anyway, and not enough income coming in, so I did what needed to be done. She wasn't happy, but she dealt with it. I will say that her situation deteriorated much more quickly that we expected. You say your parent can barely walk and is shuffling around. Same with MIL, except she lived alone, so when she fell, she was on the floor for several hours before Meals on Wheels called us when she didn't answer. We went over, took her to the ER and from there she was admitted to the hospital and the discharged to a nursing home. I would get the legal paperwork done ASAP before they lose the ability to sign legally.

[Sibley]

@former player , a POA is needed because when the parents DO become incapacitated and its not in place, then its a royal PITA. It's part of basic estate planning. That's why I have POA on my parents, though I've never used it. It why my sister has POA for me.

Zamboni - shift the conversation re the POA to the distant future when they're both really sick and need temporary help while they get better. If your step mother wants POA on your dad, fine. I believe you can set up the POA to be step mother first, then Zamboni.

[lhamo]

Zamboni, please first thing Monday morning pick up the phone and call the social services agency in the county where your parents live. They likely have a division that focuses on helping their elderly residents. The social workers there can give you advice and also check in with your parents to assess their needs. Their county may have some good professional or volunteer resources to refer you to, to help figure out how best to handle your parents' affairs.

Calling the county social services to learn about available programs is a good idea. Thank you for this suggestion!

For example, if there is any sort of "affordable senior housing" waiting list near where they live, then I'd like to find out about it and get them on the list. Honestly if they were able to get into truly affordable senior housing, with a little community of other seniors like I see when I deliver Meals on Wheels, then I think they could keep doing their hobbies and activities and be actually retired and be happy and less stressed out. The types of things they like to do are exactly the types of things that are social activities in these communities.

On the bright side, my Dad's parents bought into a retirement community that is not unlike some of the affordable senior housing apartment buildings that are peppered here and there. . . so I think he may accept it as a viable option because he saw that it was good for his own Mom, in particular.

I don't know how Step Mom would feel about it at all, but I suspect maybe she'd feel relieved? Trying to manage it all by herself is definitely weighing her down.

Right now they definitely think they can never retire. That line of thinking is driving some of their decisions. But unfortunately retirement is not always a choice. Lots of people retire because they can no longer effectively work due to health.

This is excellent advice, and also what I was going to suggest.

A second, follow-up step would be to start researching which care facilities in their area are willing to work with elders on Medicaid, and what the process is for getting into them.  And also do some visits to make sure they are the kind of place you would feel comfortable with your parents being (and that hopefully would be a good fit for them).  The place we ended up placing my mom for the last 10 months of her life had a deal where as long as you had paid full-rate for 12 months, you were guaranteed a room as long as you met their care provision requirements.  They would basically take all your SS payments minus a small allowance, and the remainder of the cost was paid through a combination of Medicaid + money they got from a charitable org they had a long-standing affiliation with (Sisters of Providence in this case).  The only real restriction there was that you could not need single-person lifting, as that required fancy equipment that they didn't have/weren't going to put in.  It was not officially a memory care place, but they operated it as such and there were many dementia patients they managed to care for as long as they didn't get aggressive/violent (during my mom's stay they did have to "re-home" one lady who physically attacked another resident and one of the caregivers).  Anyway, this place was probably physically the shabbiest of any we saw, but it didn't have any major rule violations or safety inspection failures.  In fact, the one major "ding" they had on their annual inspection report (also a MUST SEE for any facility you are considering) was that they did an unpermitted renovation to put a door between two units that housed a couple that had met in the facility.  I actually saw that as a plus -- they were more concerned about meeting the needs of their residents in a timely way and making their lives easier/happier than wading through a bureaucratic swamp to get permits that really weren't important in the grand scheme of things.

Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee that your parental units will utilize any of the research you do in this regard.  But if you are constantly telling them "Hey, I know you would rather stay in your own home, but when you are ready X facility has a waiting list that is Y months long, but once you are in there you only need to pay $Z for ABC months, and then they will shift you to Medicaid."  You/they will have a better idea what their options are and know who to call the minute they realize they can't make do on their own any longer.  It may require an interim step of you or your siblings paying their bills for a year or so while things get sorted out, but that is better than a remaining lifetime of uncertainty and stress for all of you.

[former player]

@former player , a POA is needed because when the parents DO become incapacitated and its not in place, then its a royal PITA. It's part of basic estate planning. That's why I have POA on my parents, though I've never used it. It why my sister has POA for me.

Zamboni - shift the conversation re the POA to the distant future when they're both really sick and need temporary help while they get better. If your step mother wants POA on your dad, fine. I believe you can set up the POA to be step mother first, then Zamboni.

It's only a royal PITA if Zamboni wants to do something about the finances after her father and step mother become incapacitated.  I see no advantage to her becoming involved at any stage, including that one.  Let the debtors go to court, get an order, and sell the house and contents to get back some of the money they are owed, which will all that is left to do by that stage.

[Metalcat]

@former player , a POA is needed because when the parents DO become incapacitated and its not in place, then its a royal PITA. It's part of basic estate planning. That's why I have POA on my parents, though I've never used it. It why my sister has POA for me.

Zamboni - shift the conversation re the POA to the distant future when they're both really sick and need temporary help while they get better. If your step mother wants POA on your dad, fine. I believe you can set up the POA to be step mother first, then Zamboni.

It's only a royal PITA if Zamboni wants to do something about the finances after her father and step mother become incapacitated.  I see no advantage to her becoming involved at any stage, including that one.  Let the debtors go to court, get an order, and sell the house and contents to get back some of the money they are owed, which will all that is left to do by that stage.

Yep.

I also see absolutely no reason to be the step mom's POA when she has her own kids. Makes no sense.

[Zamboni]

I haven't read all the responses but I've read enough to know that you and I are in almost the exact situation. We did the financial and medical POA. Once that was done, MIL deferred all finances to me. Like yours, she had terrible credit anyway, and not enough income coming in, so I did what needed to be done. She wasn't happy, but she dealt with it. I will say that her situation deteriorated much more quickly that we expected. You say your parent can barely walk and is shuffling around. Same with MIL, except she lived alone, so when she fell, she was on the floor for several hours before Meals on Wheels called us when she didn't answer. We went over, took her to the ER and from there she was admitted to the hospital and the discharged to a nursing home. I would get the legal paperwork done ASAP before they lose the ability to sign legally.

Yeah . . . almost. I think there is pretty much zero chance my SM will defer all finances to me anytime soon. That's why she wants the financial POA for my Dad. As long as she is conscious, she wants to control their income, checkbook, bills, purchase decisions, etc.

I guess I'll see next time I am there how much "help" and advice she really is open to taking. She is saying she wants help, I think mostly because she understands no one is handing her a blank check right now without it. I don't think she gets how tight fisted we are going to be if she doesn't follow all of the advice offered by me and her financial advisor friend for some fairly long period of time to show good faith. For example, he wants her to cut up all her cards and not get any more, since she continues spiraling out of control with their elective spending. She will likely insist she needs them for "emergencies." I'm not going to argue with her about any of this. So we'll see.

If she did turn over financial control right now, like this month or next, and actually followed advice, then I think her friend and I could sort it out pretty fast with our skills and resources. In that situation my brother and I would chip in, as long as we were sure they didn't ridiculously squander money behind our backs.

Sadly, if she had turned over financial control a year ago, they'd definitely be sitting on some savings and not stressed at all, because at that point they had just gotten a windfall that paid off their credit cards and they were at no debt other than their mortgage. At least that is what we were told voluntarily at that time, and we didn't even ask about it . . . but I'm learning I can't take what they tell me at face value. The "emergencies" they had this year were reasonably predictable events, and they could have been handled much, much less expensively than the options they chose. It's true that their income is fairly high relative to their "normal needs" living expenses. They should have been able to save up, but they actually went in the opposite direction really, really fast. Like incomprehensibly fast. Too late to go back in time, though.

But if she waits to do things really differently and continues on this year's trajectory for another year, then it will end right where former player predicts. At that point I will not intervene except to make sure my Dad has food and a comfortable place to live out his years. So I do need to follow the advice of @zhelud and @lhamo now, so we are not scrambling with no known options in a year or two for when it is even worse and they can no longer make even the minimum payments on things.

And yes, I've definitely thought about telling her that she needs to list one of her children first as POA for her.

[Zamboni]

I've been reflecting a lot and trying to be stoic and sensible about their money worries and requests.

Bottom line is that it seems like what really is driving them right now, at least in this moment, is that they each have different fears about their own safety in the future.

In the periods in their lives when they didn't have that fear, they spent like money morons and got right back to where they are. So cycles of fear and retail therapy? But now they are older, with less ability to just work more and bounce back, and these fears are becoming more real.

Dad fears that he won't be able to keep 'independence' once SM is gone because she's been his caregiver for so long he can't imagine other options. Thus he backs her ideas without question out of fear about that, and out of love for her.

SM fears that she'll be in the poor house if Dad dies without a huge insurance payout. Thus he has a ridiculous number of very high premium life insurance policies.

Both of them fear that they won't be able to pay bills if they can't work even for a month.

All of this fear seems to be driving a lot of panic in their behavior.

When we are operating from a place of panic, most of us don't make the best decisions. If they are in a general state of panic (which they are), then that is what they need help with addressing that first, but with mindfulness about the long term implications of decisions. Their decision making isn't helped by the fact that their problem solving skills seem to be deteriorating in a way that likely normal for their ages.

The fact that they did this to themselves is sort of irrelevant at this point.

[Metalcat]

The fact that they did this to themselves is sort of irrelevant at this point.

You would think so, but it's actually VERY RELEVANT.

Baked into this assumption is that at some point they will have no choice but to react rationally to their terrible situation. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that.

Of course it matters why and how they got here, because the exact same motivations and assumptions that got them here are STILL guiding their choices.

This is the BIGGEST mistake I made with my parents. They were in total chaotic crisis, far, far worse than your parents and they were crying and panicking and desperate for solutions, and agreed to every solution I proposed to them and were 110% on board.

Then the panic wore off.

Then I was the bad guy trying to ruin their lives even though I was only doing what they had already agreed to. Things that months before had made them tell me that I was the most amazing and generous daughter on the planet.

It's so easy to think that because they're freaking out about the consequences of their own choices that they will now be open to making reasonable choices. But be very cautious with that assumption.

If magical thinking got them here, they're going to believe that magical thinking, not responsible decision making, is going to get them out.

So yes, it very much matters how they got here. If I can give you any advice on this, never ever lose sight of how they got here.

That was the huge realization for me. I didn't fully understand how my parents got where they were. It was actually the time I spent trying to help them that showed me, nakedly, how they got to where they were.

I actually didn't realize just how entitled, spoiled, and unreasonable they were until I tried to help them navigate our of a serious, crushing financial crisis.

It wasn't until I fully grasped how they had gotten there that I was even remotely equipped to understand how to handle them.

[iluvzbeach]

Oh @Metalcat, I totally could have written the post above. Obviously I didn’t and I wouldn’t have been nearly as articulate, but what you describe is my experience to a t! It’s so bizarre how many people operate in this way (like our parents); it’s as if there is a “life script” they pick up from somewhere.

[Villanelle]

I think the tendency is to assume that other people will react how we would react, especially when it's pretty clear that our reaction is superior in pretty much every definable way.  But if getting out from under frivolous debt elicited a rational, responsible reaction in people like this, they either never would have gotten into that debt in the first place, or they'd have learned the lesson after the first time.  When they haven't learned the lesson and changed the behavior after multiple trips around this awful ride, it's sort of silly to believe this time will be different when nothing else has meaningfully changed.  Sure, they may be more panicked this time than other times, but that's just a matter of degrees. 

You say that when operating from panic they don't make the best decisions.  But they've made the same type of bad financial decisions even when they weren't especially panicked.  That's why they got to the panic point in the first place. 

So the fact that they did this to themselves is relevant because it shows the pattern.  If this had happened because a thief stole all their money, they wouldn't have done that to themselves.  So there would be great reason to be optimistic that if they could just clear everything up and get a tiny bit of breathing room, everything would be okay, they would make solid choices going forward in the context of the diminished resources available to them, and life would settle.  But that's not the case--they did this to themselves because they can't help spending every penny they have, and then spending a bunch more then don't.  So why would you think they wouldn't just do it again?  What has fundamentally changed from the last time they did this to themselves, and the time before that, and the time before that?  'Even more panic than last time', isn't really a fundamental change.  They respond to fear with retail therapy.  So it kinda stands to reason that if they are more afraid, they aren't suddenly going to switch to a new coping mechanism.  Panic is probably the hardest state from which to make meaningful change.  You are so busy managing the fear you can't really focus on new habits.

[fuzzy math]

Going through this right now. Mom is in a panic because her rent is going up $150 and she's finally going to have to ditch the 2 br apartment. Unfortunately she no longer has income other than SS and won't qualify for anything except low income senior housing. Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.  If she had been willing to downsize last year when the same annual renewal sent her into a panic, she'd have qualified for a nicer place. She probably still wouldn't have been able to afford it at this point... maybe its all moot. She was always going to end up in subsidized stuff.

I'm going home this weekend to try to help. Knowing that I can't convince her to act rationally, I still have to push her towards some outcome where she chooses another place to live. I wish I was blessed with the same high tolerance for big adult tears.

[Zamboni]

Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.

Geez, I'm sorry. Over the top theatrics. I have a really hard time when people toss around "gonna kill myself" phrasing during their tantrums as a manipulative tactic because they aren't getting what they want. Some folks do this WAAAY too much. It's quite hard on those of us who do know someone who actually committed suicide or made a serious failed attempt at it (usually without any direct advance warnings said to those who love them.)

Yes, I'm being delusional in hoping that my parents will change just because they are so afraid this time that there are tantrum outbursts (from Dad) and tears (from SM).

[Metalcat]

Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.

Geez, I'm sorry. Over the top theatrics. I have a really hard time when people toss around "gonna kill myself" phrasing during their tantrums as a manipulative tactic because they aren't getting what they want. Some folks do this WAAAY too much. It's quite hard on those of us who do know someone who actually committed suicide or made a serious failed attempt at it (usually without any direct advance warnings said to those who love them.)

Yes, I'm being delusional in hoping that my parents will change just because they are so afraid this time that there are tantrum outbursts (from Dad) and tears (from SM).

You can hope, just don't fool yourself.

My parents did get better, and are currently reasonably financial stable, albeit depending on my 70 year old step father to continue doing his handyman job. But still, they made enormous leaps and bounds in terms of financial responsibility.

Just not in any kind of sane or reasonable timeline and not in any of the ways that I tried to facilitate that would have been infinitely more responsible and financially beneficial for them, and would have left them with plenty of money and no need for my senior step father to be putting up drywall all day until he drops dead of a heat attack doing it.

There may be hope for them to learn and improve, but that learning and improving isn't likely to look anything like you think it should look and definitely not on your timeline.

The situation isn't hopeless, that's not what any of us are trying to say. What we're trying to say is that you will never make people who think they way they do think the way you do about money. It's just never going to happen.

So learn from the mistake that SOOOO many of us have made by expecting unreasonable people to think and behave reasonably just because they're experiencing the consequences of their unreasonableness.

It would be great if natural consequences turned unreasonable people into reasonable people, but they don't.

The sooner to truly accept that these people will always be unreasonable, the sooner you will be able to actually help them within their adaptive capacity if you actually have the capacity yourself to do that.

It's not that you shouldn't help or should provide emotional support, it's that you are walking into a minefield if you go in there thinking the way you were in the first post.

You can't fix this. Nor should you.

These are unreasonable people who will behave unreasonably to this situation, and even if they do change for the better, their solutions will also be unreasonable.

If you can't accept that about them, you aren't the right person to help them. In my family, my little brother is much better at that than I am, so now he's the point person on that now despite me, on paper, being the "better" person to help with financial stuff. But I'm not right for the job, because I can't stomach the inevitable unreasonableness.

[Sibley]

Going through this right now. Mom is in a panic because her rent is going up $150 and she's finally going to have to ditch the 2 br apartment. Unfortunately she no longer has income other than SS and won't qualify for anything except low income senior housing. Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.  If she had been willing to downsize last year when the same annual renewal sent her into a panic, she'd have qualified for a nicer place. She probably still wouldn't have been able to afford it at this point... maybe its all moot. She was always going to end up in subsidized stuff.

I'm going home this weekend to try to help. Knowing that I can't convince her to act rationally, I still have to push her towards some outcome where she chooses another place to live. I wish I was blessed with the same high tolerance for big adult tears.

Fuzzy math, proceed as if she actually were suicidal. Call the authorities, whoever they are in her location. Suicide threats are not funny and there should be a serious response. If someone threatens suicide, then either they need a sharp wake up call that it's not ok or they have an opportunity to get the help that they need. In your case getting a social worker involved might really help the overall situation.

And for those who say it'll make things worse - EVERYONE who uses threats to harm themselves, regardless of age, as a method of getting what they want SHOULD have the cold hard consequences of those threats brought down squarely on their heads. It is not a joke, it is not funny, it is not a valid method of persuasion. It is either a desperate cry for help or a punishable offense. Treat it as a cry for help every time and if it's really a punishable offense that will be quickly figured out and handled appropriately.

[jrhampt]

Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.

Geez, I'm sorry. Over the top theatrics. I have a really hard time when people toss around "gonna kill myself" phrasing during their tantrums as a manipulative tactic because they aren't getting what they want. Some folks do this WAAAY too much. It's quite hard on those of us who do know someone who actually committed suicide or made a serious failed attempt at it (usually without any direct advance warnings said to those who love them.)

Yes, I'm being delusional in hoping that my parents will change just because they are so afraid this time that there are tantrum outbursts (from Dad) and tears (from SM).

You can hope, just don't fool yourself.

My parents did get better, and are currently reasonably financial stable, albeit depending on my 70 year old step father to continue doing his handyman job. But still, they made enormous leaps and bounds in terms of financial responsibility.

Just not in any kind of sane or reasonable timeline and not in any of the ways that I tried to facilitate that would have been infinitely more responsible and financially beneficial for them, and would have left them with plenty of money and no need for my senior step father to be putting up drywall all day until he drops dead of a heat attack doing it.

There may be hope for them to learn and improve, but that learning and improving isn't likely to look anything like you think it should look and definitely not on your timeline.

The situation isn't hopeless, that's not what any of us are trying to say. What we're trying to say is that you will never make people who think they way they do think the way you do about money. It's just never going to happen.

So learn from the mistake that SOOOO many of us have made by expecting unreasonable people to think and behave reasonably just because they're experiencing the consequences of their unreasonableness.

It would be great if natural consequences turned unreasonable people into reasonable people, but they don't.

The sooner to truly accept that these people will always be unreasonable, the sooner you will be able to actually help them within their adaptive capacity if you actually have the capacity yourself to do that.

It's not that you shouldn't help or should provide emotional support, it's that you are walking into a minefield if you go in there thinking the way you were in the first post.

You can't fix this. Nor should you.

These are unreasonable people who will behave unreasonably to this situation, and even if they do change for the better, their solutions will also be unreasonable.

If you can't accept that about them, you aren't the right person to help them. In my family, my little brother is much better at that than I am, so now he's the point person on that now despite me, on paper, being the "better" person to help with financial stuff. But I'm not right for the job, because I can't stomach the inevitable unreasonableness.

I need to bookmark these comments for reference with my own parents.  It's true, just because you think someone's life is a trainwreck and you can't imagine living like that and your way is so much better and stress free etc. and you should get them to fix it, they may think it's perfectly fine (even though it is in fact a trainwreck).  And if they're fine with being a trainwreck, so be it.

[former player]

Going through this right now. Mom is in a panic because her rent is going up $150 and she's finally going to have to ditch the 2 br apartment. Unfortunately she no longer has income other than SS and won't qualify for anything except low income senior housing. Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.  If she had been willing to downsize last year when the same annual renewal sent her into a panic, she'd have qualified for a nicer place. She probably still wouldn't have been able to afford it at this point... maybe its all moot. She was always going to end up in subsidized stuff.

I'm going home this weekend to try to help. Knowing that I can't convince her to act rationally, I still have to push her towards some outcome where she chooses another place to live. I wish I was blessed with the same high tolerance for big adult tears.

Fuzzy math, proceed as if she actually were suicidal. Call the authorities, whoever they are in her location. Suicide threats are not funny and there should be a serious response. If someone threatens suicide, then either they need a sharp wake up call that it's not ok or they have an opportunity to get the help that they need. In your case getting a social worker involved might really help the overall situation.

And for those who say it'll make things worse - EVERYONE who uses threats to harm themselves, regardless of age, as a method of getting what they want SHOULD have the cold hard consequences of those threats brought down squarely on their heads. It is not a joke, it is not funny, it is not a valid method of persuasion. It is either a desperate cry for help or a punishable offense. Treat it as a cry for help every time and if it's really a punishable offense that will be quickly figured out and handled appropriately.

If someone is obviously making suicide threats as a means of gaining attention or control, as fuzzy math seems to think is the case here, I'm not so sure this is the right response - the threatener may end up liking the attention and just go on to repeat the behaviour again and again - "frequent flyers" like that are the bane of any emergency service.

If I think someone is threatening suicide in order to control something I do I'm going to disappear out of their life immediately, and if they kill themselves or try to kill themselves for attention that's their choice.

(Yes, it's different if they are ill.  But while it's hard to tell if someone is ill enough to kill themselves, it's pretty easy to tell if they are threatening to do it to get a particular response.)

[iluvzbeach]

Going through this right now. Mom is in a panic because her rent is going up $150 and she's finally going to have to ditch the 2 br apartment. Unfortunately she no longer has income other than SS and won't qualify for anything except low income senior housing. Lots of panicking, tantrums, tears, threats to end her life etc. Its exhausting.  If she had been willing to downsize last year when the same annual renewal sent her into a panic, she'd have qualified for a nicer place. She probably still wouldn't have been able to afford it at this point... maybe its all moot. She was always going to end up in subsidized stuff.

I'm going home this weekend to try to help. Knowing that I can't convince her to act rationally, I still have to push her towards some outcome where she chooses another place to live. I wish I was blessed with the same high tolerance for big adult tears.

Fuzzy math, proceed as if she actually were suicidal. Call the authorities, whoever they are in her location. Suicide threats are not funny and there should be a serious response. If someone threatens suicide, then either they need a sharp wake up call that it's not ok or they have an opportunity to get the help that they need. In your case getting a social worker involved might really help the overall situation.

And for those who say it'll make things worse - EVERYONE who uses threats to harm themselves, regardless of age, as a method of getting what they want SHOULD have the cold hard consequences of those threats brought down squarely on their heads. It is not a joke, it is not funny, it is not a valid method of persuasion. It is either a desperate cry for help or a punishable offense. Treat it as a cry for help every time and if it's really a punishable offense that will be quickly figured out and handled appropriately.

I could not possibly agree more with Sibley’s comment above. My father spent a lifetime of making threats to end his life over one thing or another. I would say that it was often used as a way to manipulate others to get what he wanted, but he did eventually carry through on it after a particular brutal interaction between the two of us. I know that I am not responsible and that he is the one who made the decision and took the action, but I also now fully comprehend that it was something that had been on his mind for quite some time and it’s possible that medical intervention in earlier years may have helped prevent him from actually getting to the point where he followed through on his threats.

[fuzzy math]

I get what everyone is saying. I tend to think its hyperbole, and also the hopes that my sister or I will white knight and swoop in to either offer her unlimited space for her cats and all of her belongings in our homes, or offer her large sums of money so she can continue to live the lifestyle she wants (seriously, she told my sister she just had to cancel her car wash membership).

I just moved from 1800 miles away to 200 miles away so I'm going to visit her this weekend. Unfortunately she was just hospitalized with some mystery septic infection so I'm not even sure she will be home for us to attempt to knock out the big 2 items on my list, which were helping her purge and pack, and select a place to live. So basically she's physically safe for now. I'll probably talk to the social workers there if she's still an inpatient about what resources there are. She's very against seeking out mental health, its "too expensive" but I think the real reason is she was gas lighted by my dad for many years over mental health stuff. Lots of issues there. I think their relationship / divorce was the real driver of many of her issues.

[TomTX]

Yea, my parents have been making quite a few completely irrational decisions - to their detriment.

It's not like I didn't try repeatedly, for years.