Please help me help my parents

[Zamboni]

As I am reflecting on all of this I am having a pretty hard time wanting to spend time with them in the future. It's an unfortunate outcome.

Perhaps as time goes on my feelings will change? I do think I need quite a bit of distance from them for awhile.

[tygertygertyger]

That is how I often feel whenever I hear too much about my relatives or friends finances, and most of the ones I hear about are a far cry from the deep dive into debt that you've just done. It's fine to take a step back for a bit and recalibrate.

[Villanelle]

As I am reflecting on all of this I am having a pretty hard time wanting to spend time with them in the future. It's an unfortunate outcome.

Perhaps as time goes on my feelings will change? I do think I need quite a bit of distance from them for awhile.

Completely natural, normal, and understandable.  If that's the boundary that feels right, honor that.

You are dealing with addicts who have lied to you, manipulated you, and tried to manipulate you even more.  Makes perfect sense that you are hesitant to sign up for more of that.  I think this is a point most people in similar situations reach at some point.  Well, except for the ones who just keep getting sucked back in and never escape it.  This is a natural consequence of dad and SM's choices and actions.

Maybe your feelings will change, and maybe they won't.  And if they do change, there are many directions that could go.  For now, just set the boundary that makes sense and feel best, and you can always reevaluate if your feelings change.

[Metalcat]

As I am reflecting on all of this I am having a pretty hard time wanting to spend time with them in the future. It's an unfortunate outcome.

Perhaps as time goes on my feelings will change? I do think I need quite a bit of distance from them for awhile.

Yep, I took a break from my parents for awhile and dealt with my anger in therapy instead of butting heads with them. This is a totally reasonable response.

[Zamboni]

SM just emailed asking for contact information for my grown children. I'm not going to respond.

[mspym]

SM just emailed asking for contact information for my grown children. I'm not going to respond.

That sounds rough. I assume you’ve warned your children not to give her anything, in case she manages to get in contact?

[jeninco]

SM just emailed asking for contact information for my grown children. I'm not going to respond.

That sounds rough. I assume you’ve warned your children not to give her anything, in case she manages to get in contact?

This. And also ... just, "no". (I fully support the "just don't respond" option, as well!)

[Kris]

SM just emailed asking for contact information for my grown children. I'm not going to respond.

Good lord. That's some gall, right there.

[Zamboni]

The timing of the request is pretty obnoxious. She never wanted it before, and they haven't lived with me for awhile.

Many years ago, when my Dad and SM first got married, she emailed me and sister for our social security numbers, which she said she need to list us as beneficiaries on our Dad's life insurance. Sister responded with hers and brother's and I responded with mine, because that sounds reasonable, right? Why would you be suspicious of a family member? I had completely forgotten all about it, but she has those emails with our personal information neatly filed away with her financial records.

My brother was not happy to hear about any of that . . . I destroyed what I found in her files this past week but they both froze their credit reports anyway. We have all had some identity theft issues periodically, but again why would you suspect a family member? Never even crossed my mind. I just thought it was a thing that happens to everyone eventually. Maybe that is true? Does it happen to everyone eventually?

My credit report has been frozen most of the time for several years since someone tried to open a card in my name. What disturbed me at the time was that whomever it was had all of my information, including both my social sec # and my maiden name. The credit card bank contacted me for some reason . . . they actually called me, which was weird, so some kind of red flag got set off. Anyway at the time I thought it must be from one of the many data breaches that have happened. Now I am not so sure. And that is not a good place to be.

So it's going to have to be more than "don't give them money" talk I'm afraid. It's a sad thought, but one time she did tell me a story about how her "next door neighbors" had opened up credit lines in the names of a bunch of their minor children. Huh. I have not spent that much time with her over the years, so the stories have been few, but a lot more of her past stories are starting to make sense to me.

So I'm afraid it's going to have to be "under no circumstances are you to share money or any personal information with them." That's a conversation I need to have with each child individually, so I'll do that in person after I've calmed down a bit. My brother already had it with his oldest son, who has a good job and a bunch of money saved up. My children don't have any money yet, but I don't want her to get their personal information. What a sad place to be.

[G-dog]

Eeek!  I am so sorry. This “gift” just keeps on giving

[iluvzbeach]

Zamboni - I've been a little bit quiet on this thread for the past week or so, in part because we've been traveling, in part because I've been a bit under the weather and mostly because your post about how your SM is the primary instigator and your dad is essentially the enabler hit so close to home for me that it was shocking.  Your post could have been written by me, except that my dad was the big spender/hoarder, etc. and my SM was the enabler.

Making it even crazier is that they also fed all the neighborhood animals and wildlife, resulting in similar problems.  At one point, multiple stray cats that they fed were pregnant at the same time and my dad bought numerous crates for the mama cats and their litters.  They had 26(!!!!) cats they were feeding, buying crates & cat litter for, yet couldn't pay their utility bills.

Then, to add even one more similarity, my SM called one day to obtain my SSN saying she was adding me as a beneficiary for a life insurance policy or work 401K or something.  Anyway, I was TERRIFIED to give it to her as I didn't trust my dad with it at all.  (He had applied for credit in her name for years without her advance knowledge.)  Anywho, I provided her with a number but intentionally transposed some digits so that he couldn't use my SSN to apply for credit, yet if/when the beneficiary thing ever came to fruition it'd look like an honest transposition of the numbers.

I'm back online and caught up with this thread, but am still a bit astounded at the similarities.  I think what we've seen is not unique to us and must be very common amongst, what I assume are, people with hoarding issues.

[Zamboni]

^Gosh, I'm sorry. Rats and cats and bears, oh my!

Had "the talk" with one of my children today.
The reaction was "Well yeah. OBVIOUSLY! Did you think I would give her any information?"

So there you go. At least one of my children is a better judge of character than I ever was. That or public school is teaching about identify theft and privacy now (which isn't something I remember unless you count Mr. Valdez's weekly energetic tirades/ monologues about 4th amendment rights against illegal search and seizure.) Probably a little of both.

[Sibley]

More likely, your adult child has more emotional distance and perspective on their grandfather and his wife than you have. Emotions cloud judgment, and he is your dad.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

Wow.  It's all easier to see in retrospect.

ID theft is common, however, having a card taken out in your name and with your info is less common than, say, having a CC # pulled or guessed by some scammer.  I think you are wise to suspect SM, as that particular kind of fraud is very common.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that some distance is good.  How could you feel like being around them, when it involves dragging you into complex situations where you're going to be used to participate in grifting people?  Ick. 

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

At least you're ready for it. 

I'm sorry for your situation, though.  It's sad above all.  And there's not a d*** thing to do about it. 

[Zamboni]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

[Metalcat]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

It's more like that's the classic playbook and we've learned the hard way how to predict it.

[Villanelle]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be cancer but so far it is a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving. 

[G-dog]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be cancer but so far it is a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving.

Man, this is horrible, but obviously the most probable next step.  It just HAS to be someone else’s fault.

[Metalcat]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be cancer but so far it is a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving.

Yep, my mom's lawyer thinks I'm a monster for letting her get a private mortgage at 12% instead of lending her money myself.

[Zamboni]

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be is cancer but so far it is what stage it is remains a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving.

FTFY.

Ruse was carried on and on and on right up until she must have realized that I had access to everything on her computer because I gave my Dad the detailed financial break down. That very day it flipped from the narrative "I was diagnosed with cancer, the only question is what stage is it" and then "surgeon said it definitely looks like cancer to him boo hoo hoo!" to "It's a miracle!" 

And OMG I just realized that the "It's a miracle not cancer" message went only to me, not to the whole listserv of dozens of people she created and uses for emails previously sent about the "cancer" and her other lengthy health updates.

Because yeah, SM, you are right: I 100% could have looked at your online health records. But I didn't, because I'm a nice person who respects your privacy. I only looked at your financials because you made such a big deal about giving me access to all of the accounts, you gushed about how you wanted my help, and my Dad said he thought me going through expenditures carefully was a really good idea.

Edited bc I looked back at the emails. Ugh.

[Villanelle]

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be is cancer but so far it is what stage it is remains a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving.

FTFY.

Ruse was carried on and on and on right up until she must have realized that I had access to everything on her computer because I gave my Dad the detailed financial break down. That very day it flipped from the narrative "I was diagnosed with cancer, the only question is what stage is it" and then "surgeon said it definitely looks like cancer to him boo hoo hoo!" to "It's a miracle!" 

And OMG I just realized that the "It's a miracle not cancer" message went only to me, not to the whole listserv of dozens of people she created and uses for emails previously sent about the "cancer" and her other lengthy health updates.

Because yeah, SM, you are right: I 100% could have looked at your online health records. But I didn't, because I'm a nice person who respects your privacy. I only looked at your financials because you made such a big deal about giving me access to all of the accounts, you gushed about how you wanted my help, and my Dad said he thought me going through expenditures carefully was a really good idea.

Edited bc I looked back at the emails. Ugh.

Yup.  "Cancer" wasn't just a lucky guess on my part.  It's always cancer, or probably-cancer, or they-tried-to-rule-out-cancer-but-couldn't-and-with-every-test-it-gets-more-likely-it's-cancer.  The fakers and attention-seekers never have diabetes or liver failure or the zillion other bad illnesses out there.  It's always cancer. 

I'm sorry. 

[Metalcat]

Prepare also for the desperation play where they start bad-mouthing you to people in order to garner sympathy and support.  "We are drowning in medical bills, which are even worse now that I have this... situation--which doctors say could be is cancer but so far it is what stage it is remains a mystery and we are waiting on more tests, so pray for me!--and yet Zamboni and Brother, who are both so well off and live in nice houses and have massive retirement accounts and paid-off houses--refuse to help us at all.  We practically begged for assistance, but they couldn't be bothered.  It's so sad that they don't even care about their own father once he needs something from them. So it's gotten to the point where we might lose the house and be on the street.  I guess Zamboni doesn't care though."

If there is a villain in the piece, people will be drawn to support the poor, trod-upon protagonists.  You've out-lived your usefulness as a piggy bank, so the only value you have to them is as the bad-guy from whom they need saving.

FTFY.

Ruse was carried on and on and on right up until she must have realized that I had access to everything on her computer because I gave my Dad the detailed financial break down. That very day it flipped from the narrative "I was diagnosed with cancer, the only question is what stage is it" and then "surgeon said it definitely looks like cancer to him boo hoo hoo!" to "It's a miracle!" 

And OMG I just realized that the "It's a miracle not cancer" message went only to me, not to the whole listserv of dozens of people she created and uses for emails previously sent about the "cancer" and her other lengthy health updates.

Because yeah, SM, you are right: I 100% could have looked at your online health records. But I didn't, because I'm a nice person who respects your privacy. I only looked at your financials because you made such a big deal about giving me access to all of the accounts, you gushed about how you wanted my help, and my Dad said he thought me going through expenditures carefully was a really good idea.

Edited bc I looked back at the emails. Ugh.

Yup.  "Cancer" wasn't just a lucky guess on my part.  It's always cancer, or probably-cancer, or they-tried-to-rule-out-cancer-but-couldn't-and-with-every-test-it-gets-more-likely-it's-cancer.  The fakers and attention-seekers never have diabetes or liver failure or the zillion other bad illnesses out there.  It's always cancer. 

I'm sorry.

Yup, no psychic skills needed. "Cancer" is the grifter's go-to ailment.

This thread is making me so grateful that I only ever had to deal with childish, entitled, self destructive parents with terrible judgement, but who are always ethical and gold hearted who would never ever try to scam me.

It's horrific what SM is trying to do to supposed family.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

Unfortunately, it probably slides downhill from here as they get increasingly desperate and resort to increasingly desperate measures.  (E.g., don't fall for the "I have a medical emergency/cancer/heart attack now and need funds/have created a GoFundMe".) 

That exact play has already been put in motion this year . . . it's like you have a crystal ball.

I am sadly pretty familiar with common frauds/grifts.  :/  @Metalcat is spot on. 

And also, the medical fraud thing may well be criminal fraud that will make people angry, so more distance/disclosure is good - kudos to you. 

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9. 

You certainly have my prayers and sympathy.  I feel for you having to go through this; it's just terrible. 

[Reynold]

I agree with Metalcat's excellent (as usual) advice not to try to manage their finances, which means managing their lives.  Then they will hate you AFTER you put a lot of work in.  Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things.  Give them as little info as possible about your finances, make it sound like you are pretty strapped yourself, ideally "I do all this tough stuff I am recommending to you, and manage to just get by" so you don't sound like a funding source for them. 

I suggest putting your time and energy into researching what government programs and living facilities will be available to them based on their income and expected near zero assets.  I have a friend whose parents couldn't keep up with their house and abandoned it to the bank eventually, and the most useful thing their family was able to do was find a place that could take them (one parent has severe dementia), how to get home aides coming, and so on.  Those programs are scattered between federal, state and county, and multiple agencies, so there is no way people who actually need them because they have failed at managing their lives already can figure them all out.  Example; these friends parents made slightly too much for a federal program to get in home aides, but a different state one they still qualified for. 

That way you have a backstop for them, but you don't become the bad guy for not funding all their wants in addition to their needs. 

[former player]

Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things. 

I agree on not sharing bank accounts, but why on earth would Zamboni agree to be named on a POA?  The "aftermath" will be various creditors fighting over what little remains, if anything.  Let the creditors fight it out between themselves.  Zamboni would in effect be working for free for the banks and credit card companies.  They can pay their own debt collectors.  No need for anyone else to get involved.

Don't think of this as a situation where a POA can make everything legally and financially neat and tidy, on behalf of people who would do it for themselves if they had the capacity.  This is the exact reverse of that situation: nothing can make this situation right and the principals aren't interested in making it right.  Agreeing to a POA in this situation has no advantages for Zamboni, and just opens her up to endless abuse, lies and gas lighting from her step-mother.

[Turtle]

SM just emailed asking for contact information for my grown children. I'm not going to respond.

Sigh...  Good for you.  If you haven't already warned your children about what is going on, I'd recommend doing so.

[Metalcat]

Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things. 

I agree on not sharing bank accounts, but why on earth would Zamboni agree to be named on a POA?  The "aftermath" will be various creditors fighting over what little remains, if anything.  Let the creditors fight it out between themselves.  Zamboni would in effect be working for free for the banks and credit card companies.  They can pay their own debt collectors.  No need for anyone else to get involved.

Don't think of this as a situation where a POA can make everything legally and financially neat and tidy, on behalf of people who would do it for themselves if they had the capacity.  This is the exact reverse of that situation: nothing can make this situation right and the principals aren't interested in making it right.  Agreeing to a POA in this situation has no advantages for Zamboni, and just opens her up to endless abuse, lies and gas lighting from her step-mother.

I suspect Reynold may have responded before finishing reading the thread and finding out about all of the fraud and various reasons NOT to get a POA in this case.

[kite]

Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things. 

I agree on not sharing bank accounts, but why on earth would Zamboni agree to be named on a POA?  The "aftermath" will be various creditors fighting over what little remains, if anything.  Let the creditors fight it out between themselves.  Zamboni would in effect be working for free for the banks and credit card companies.  They can pay their own debt collectors.  No need for anyone else to get involved.

Don't think of this as a situation where a POA can make everything legally and financially neat and tidy, on behalf of people who would do it for themselves if they had the capacity.  This is the exact reverse of that situation: nothing can make this situation right and the principals aren't interested in making it right.  Agreeing to a POA in this situation has no advantages for Zamboni, and just opens her up to endless abuse, lies and gas lighting from her step-mother.

The POA isn’t for the “aftermath” if “aftermath” is meant to imply after they’ve died.  That’s an executor’s problem.

The POA is allowed to act on their behalf while they are alive with authority to access their money, sell assets, arrange for housing, placement & services.
Having one has made the care of my elderly Mother very manageable.
Not having a POA made the last weeks of both my uncle’s & brother’s lives far more difficult and expensive  for loved ones than it should have been. They were unable to care for themselves and were entitled to full-time home health aides. But since no one was POA, the insurer would not work with us to arrange. For my uncle, I was able to refuse to pick him up, leave him an extra 30 days in a rehab and have a hearing during which time they allowed me to be appointed guardian.  My brother was already home and did not live the full 30 days to wait for the hearing.
It meant cleaning his shit myself or hiring privately to get some help from an aide. By me, aides through and agency are roughly $40/hour with a 4 hour minimum. 

Get the POA, or ensure that someone does.

No frail, elderly person should be without someone who can be their POA. Being able to access their checking account to pay certain expenses is priceless.

[former player]

Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things. 

I agree on not sharing bank accounts, but why on earth would Zamboni agree to be named on a POA?  The "aftermath" will be various creditors fighting over what little remains, if anything.  Let the creditors fight it out between themselves.  Zamboni would in effect be working for free for the banks and credit card companies.  They can pay their own debt collectors.  No need for anyone else to get involved.

Don't think of this as a situation where a POA can make everything legally and financially neat and tidy, on behalf of people who would do it for themselves if they had the capacity.  This is the exact reverse of that situation: nothing can make this situation right and the principals aren't interested in making it right.  Agreeing to a POA in this situation has no advantages for Zamboni, and just opens her up to endless abuse, lies and gas lighting from her step-mother.

The POA isn’t for the “aftermath” if “aftermath” is meant to imply after they’ve died.  That’s an executor’s problem.

The POA is allowed to act on their behalf while they are alive with authority to access their money, sell assets, arrange for housing, placement & services.
Having one has made the care of my elderly Mother very manageable.
Not having a POA made the last weeks of both my uncle’s & brother’s lives far more difficult and expensive  for loved ones than it should have been. They were unable to care for themselves and were entitled to full-time home health aides. But since no one was POA, the insurer would not work with us to arrange. For my uncle, I was able to refuse to pick him up, leave him an extra 30 days in a rehab and have a hearing during which time they allowed me to be appointed guardian.  My brother was already home and did not live the full 30 days to wait for the hearing.
It meant cleaning his shit myself or hiring privately to get some help from an aide. By me, aides through and agency are roughly $40/hour with a 4 hour minimum. 

Get the POA, or ensure that someone does.

No frail, elderly person should be without someone who can be their POA. Being able to access their checking account to pay certain expenses is priceless.

There is no money, and even if there were the person with the POA may not have the right to spend it on care because it is probably owed to someone else - and if they are seen to be continuing an existing fraud may be criminally liable if they try.

If care is needed then the local authority's elder care service is what will have to arrange it, just as they would for any elderly person in need who has no assets.  It will probably not be somewhere nice, but choices have consequences.

[Villanelle]

Getting a POA will be useful for the aftermath, but don't let them share bank accounts or you start becoming liable for things. 

I agree on not sharing bank accounts, but why on earth would Zamboni agree to be named on a POA?  The "aftermath" will be various creditors fighting over what little remains, if anything.  Let the creditors fight it out between themselves.  Zamboni would in effect be working for free for the banks and credit card companies.  They can pay their own debt collectors.  No need for anyone else to get involved.

Don't think of this as a situation where a POA can make everything legally and financially neat and tidy, on behalf of people who would do it for themselves if they had the capacity.  This is the exact reverse of that situation: nothing can make this situation right and the principals aren't interested in making it right.  Agreeing to a POA in this situation has no advantages for Zamboni, and just opens her up to endless abuse, lies and gas lighting from her step-mother.

The POA isn’t for the “aftermath” if “aftermath” is meant to imply after they’ve died.  That’s an executor’s problem.

The POA is allowed to act on their behalf while they are alive with authority to access their money, sell assets, arrange for housing, placement & services.
Having one has made the care of my elderly Mother very manageable.
Not having a POA made the last weeks of both my uncle’s & brother’s lives far more difficult and expensive  for loved ones than it should have been. They were unable to care for themselves and were entitled to full-time home health aides. But since no one was POA, the insurer would not work with us to arrange. For my uncle, I was able to refuse to pick him up, leave him an extra 30 days in a rehab and have a hearing during which time they allowed me to be appointed guardian.  My brother was already home and did not live the full 30 days to wait for the hearing.
It meant cleaning his shit myself or hiring privately to get some help from an aide. By me, aides through and agency are roughly $40/hour with a 4 hour minimum. 

Get the POA, or ensure that someone does.

No frail, elderly person should be without someone who can be their POA. Being able to access their checking account to pay certain expenses is priceless.

I think you are letting your own situation color your feelings about OP's.  Which is pretty natural and something we all do to some extent.  But there are vast differences between your situation and theirs.  the mot significant of which is that OP's dad and SM don't have $40 to pay a home health aid, so their appointed POA couldn't do anything about that situation.  Giving the POA access to their accounts means the POA could long and and see the balanced of empty and overdrawn accounts.  How is that helpful?  Yes, being able to "access their checking account to pay certain expenses" is valuable, but only when the checking account actually has money with which to pay expenses.

Your example involved someone with at least some funds.  These people have no funds and on top of that there is likely some fraud involved (forged signatures, questionable asks for money, etc.)  That makes Z's situation very different than yours, and makes the answers for how to best proceed very different.

A POA is a terrible idea for OP.

[Weisass]

How are you doing, @Zamboni ? Hoping you are feeling more peace these days.

[Zamboni]

Oh, I'm doing okay, thank you for asking. Just pulled out my lightweight spring ski pants and they are way too big now, so taking those to the tailor on Monday. Dad taught me to ski . . . so it's pretty much impossible to get mad at him.

Exasperated, yes. Mad, no.

Love your blog!

[ender]

I just read through this whole thread - sorry you are dealing with this situation.

I don't really have any advice but to send virtual hugs. I'm also sad they started down FPU and then gave up, though not surprised since Dave a rather polarizing person for enablers/addicts. In some cases he's the AA folks need financially.

[Zamboni]

Update:

Dad and SM seem to have turned the boat very slightly in the right direction. There are still bad old habits, of course, but it does feel like they are making some effort to avoid the giant iceberg of bankruptcy that looms. For example, it appears they have stopped feeding the birds/squirrels/rats.

SM was sore at me and embarrassed, I think, but she got over it. At this point I'm just pretending the whole episode never happened and letting them figure it out as best as they can.

More health issues and more surgeries are on the horizon. I'll help where I can in terms of my time while trying to minimize the consumption of my money.

My tailor did not want to take in my light weight ski pants, lol. Said the fabric would be too difficult to work with. I might try taking them somewhere else . . .

[Zamboni]

I'm dealing with nitwits and pathological liars.

The only bright spot in the last few months has been that I've met a step sibling who seems to be quite a good person.

Otherwise it's hopeless.

[ixtap]

I'm dealing with nitwits and pathological liars.

The only bright spot in the last few months has been that I've met a step sibling who seems to be quite a good person.

Otherwise it's hopeless.

I like your previous update better.

I hope you find some peace in the chaos.

[Metalcat]

I'm dealing with nitwits and pathological liars.

The only bright spot in the last few months has been that I've met a step sibling who seems to be quite a good person.

Otherwise it's hopeless.

Congrats. It took me years to get there myself.

[former player]

Got to admit I'm curious as to what these people could have done now that's worse than they'd already done.  But I can live with just knowing that worse is out there.

Commiserations to Zamboni.

[ysette9]

As the French say, « bon courage »!

[Zamboni]

I'm dealing with nitwits and pathological liars.

The only bright spot in the last few months has been that I've met a step sibling who seems to be quite a good person.

Otherwise it's hopeless.

I like your previous update better.

I hope you find some peace in the chaos.

Me too, thank you.

It's not that their behavior is actually much worse, I suppose, it's just that now that we all know more details about what is going on some of their actions are very obviously shooting themselves in the foot.

Even though they are both on oxygen and in overall terrible health, Step Mom seems convinced that my Dad is going to die before her, so I tried to use this information to help her see that it would be in her own best interest to be more prudent with her spending choices now. My reasoning for this was that he intends to work until he dies, and then his death will result the loss of his fairly substantial income that she is currently spending (and then some).  In response to this, she said and I quote: "If your Dad dies, all of my money problems go away." She fancies herself quite a smart person, but apparently she can't do math. He doesn't spend any money on his own, she handles it all. She doesn't understand how well below the poverty line she will be when he dies happens even WITH his spousal social security and meager life insurance payout and the tiny bit of equity they have in their dilapidated and mortgaged to the hilt house. I guess she is planning to file for bankruptcy again? Sheesh.

She is also trying to convince anyone who will listen that my Dad has severe dementia. He doesn't, it even says right in his very recent medical records that he doesn't because I looked at those. He still works as a teacher, he can still give me directions to anywhere I am trying to go, he is still quite good at games. I've spent quite a lot of time with him recently, so I've seen how very well he functions.

I'm not sure what her motivation is for doing that, but it is getting really, really old. Mostly I think she is trying to get sympathy / money from anyone who will listen or read her many long emails she sends to everyone outlining their woes?

I do think she dopes him up on opiate painkillers sometimes and then he gets either very sleepy or temporarily in a fog. Then she'll tell a long story about it and say "he can't stay awake" or "he gets confused and doesn't know what is going on." But I have stayed there for several weeks in the past couple of months and he never asked me for a painkiller even once for an entire week that she was away from the home. He was sharp as a tack, although he doesn't always want to follow medical advice and he will lie about things to make himself look or feel better. They also didn't give him any painkillers during a recent short stay at the hospital. He does definitely have health issues, but I don't think pain management is one of them at this time. So, yeah, that part is a new ugly twist.

[Cassie]

It’s hard to understand how your step mom could be so out of touch. If he dies she will be screwed.

[SunnyDays]

That whole post is scary.  Your SM basically says she would be better off if your dad died, tries to make people believe he has dementia and then dopes him up on opioids.  Perhaps her plan is bigger than just getting sympathy.  You may want to consider calling Adult Protective Services.  Even if you dad denies everything to them, at least your SM will be on their radar.  That is one sick woman!

[Zamboni]

It definitely has some Gone Girl vibes of all being an elaborate set up.

Have I mentioned in this thread that they are spending OVER $1000 a month on life insurance premiums? All for what I consider a quite small payout. It's certainly not an amount that I think would set me up for life, and at her current burn rate she'd be completely through it in less than a year.

Siblings and I have discussed calling APS previously. From the way doctors and nurses treat her, I'm sure it must say in her medical record that she is "not an accurate reporter," but would APS buy her version of the situation? He would side with her all of the way. So, I actually don't think they would do anything.

[Catbert]

That whole post is scary.  Your SM basically says she would be better off if your dad died, tries to make people believe he has dementia and then dopes him up on opioids.  Perhaps her plan is bigger than just getting sympathy.  You may want to consider calling Adult Protective Services.  Even if you dad denies everything to them, at least your SM will be on their radar.  That is one sick woman!

.
Yeah, sounds like the beginning of a Dateline episode.  I suspect that in addition to gaining sympathy she thinks that "his" bills will die with him.

[Zamboni]

^OMG you are on to something!

One of the things I noticed in my deep dive in their finances was that she had done a few things in the preceding couple of months:
1. took out a new credit card in his name only (I'm sure it was an online application, he doesn't use the computer and there's a 0% chance he even knows about it.)
2. then took a large cash advance on that card and put it in a savings account.
3. told me and their financial advisor friend that she had actually "saved up" that money. She actually made a big deal about how she had "saved up." Look what a good girl I am!

I can't make this stuff up.

So now I'm wondering just how many of their credit cards are in his name only? All of them?

Maybe it actually will become a Dateline episode?

Honestly, though, for the most part I don't care, because I understand there is very little I can do about it. He'd just defend her if I asked him about that credit card. She lies to him, us, everyone pretty much most of the time, from what I have been able to tell. I have confirmed that she has told some major league whoppers. I mentioned to my Dad that she had told us a couple of really giant lies about his health, her health, and about their finances to me in a direct attempt to get money, and that it bothered me. I wasn't trying to stir up trouble, but I am concerned about her lying about his "severe dementia" to everyone. His response was that he is certain she has never lied to us. And also that anyway as far as he was concerned we are successful so it shouldn't be a big deal for us to each give them a few thousand dollars. A month. So he's all in on at least part of the con. Basically he will side with her to his grave. Complete and total cognitive dissonance. And that's fine.

This is her third marriage, previous spouse died, so probably it's not her first go round with how to commit fraud and game the financial system.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

That whole post is scary.  Your SM basically says she would be better off if your dad died, tries to make people believe he has dementia and then dopes him up on opioids.  Perhaps her plan is bigger than just getting sympathy.  You may want to consider calling Adult Protective Services.  Even if you dad denies everything to them, at least your SM will be on their radar.  That is one sick woman!

.
Yeah, sounds like the beginning of a Dateline episode.  I suspect that in addition to gaining sympathy she thinks that "his" bills will die with him.

I literally was typing this when it said "more replies posted" and, sure enough, someone beat me to it. 

Listen to @Catbert and @SunnyDays here.  This post reads like the start of a murder story...

As to your SM, people have a hard time dealing with hard things.  She may be in denial.  Or she may have a devious plan.  Who knows.

But what I do know is that I would be very concerned that she seems willing to kill my father - and I would NOT want to wait on telling APS about that or being clear that she means him ill intentions. 

I would also be very careful in all interactions with her and severely limit any contact at all - or your father, for that matter - as this whole situation is a giant risk to all around them. 

They can't grift people without upsetting people, and those people may eventually look at you as part of the grift.  I'd want nothing to do with it/them.  Their behavior is actively hurting a lot of people, and eventually, it's likely to hurt you, too (even more than it has already). 

But #1 here, I would warn that she intends him harm and I would fear for his life.  She's setting something up where it sure looks like he's going to die...at her hand, but by blaming someone else. 

Human nature is rough, and she's sending you all of the red flags that she may, in fact, kill him. 

I would not want to be around to be that someone else, and I would want it damn clear that I think she's fairly likely to do that before it happens - it's more convincing than afterwards. 

This thread reminded me of this story (which I heard about on a podcast this week): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqQAxX8Wog 

That's a lot like what you're dealing with.   

I wish you well, and I hope you're able to protect yourself from this. 

[G-dog]

@Zamboni - I am sorry that this (your SM, and to some degree your father) just keeps raining shit.

I suspect your SM says your dad has dementia so that if the shit ever does hit the fan and he does not back up her lies, no one will believe him.  What an absolute mess.  I am sorry your dad is so desperate, or gullible, or whatever the reason, that he accepts anyone treating him this way, much less his spouse.

[Cassie]

As a former social worker APS would interview your dad and then their hand’s would be tied because he is an adult and not a child. Adults are allowed to stay in unsafe situations unless they are cognitively impaired which he isn’t.  It’s hard to get divorced especially in your senior years when you feel more vulnerable and expect your spouse to be your ally. It takes a lot of courage and most men don’t have it.

[Omy]

I recommend reporting it now. At least there would be a record of your concerns should something happen to your father.

[former player]

How did your SM's previous husband(s) die?