Please help me help my parents

[Sibley]

One other thing, and this isn't pleasant to write nor read, but I think it is important it be said, for your sake in the end. This may kill your father. And there is nothing you can do to prevent that if its going to happen.

He's old, he's not in perfect health, and the stress of the situation or heartbreak of SM leaving could well push him further than his body or mind can cope. If this is going to happen, then you CAN NOT prevent it. You can't change this. It's not a situation of your making, it's not a situation you can change or influence enough to make a measurable difference. Reporting her to APS won't do it. The police won't do it. Bankruptcy won't do it. A magic wand to wipe away the debt won't do it. Moving them in with you won't do it. This train is in motion, and you just have to wait for it to come to a stop.

The only thing you can do is salvage the relationship. Go fishing with your dad. Watch movies on your couch on Saturday night. Hang out while wrenching on the car. Because while you can't change what happens, you simultaneously are part of the puzzle. If the ultimate outcome is him squeaking through because he's got a strong enough emotional support system, then great, and you can be part of that. It may not be enough, but it is the best thing you can do as well as the only thing you can do. Same with your brother and any other family he's got. It also will help you cope with the guilt you will feel.

Good luck. The whole situation sucks, and I'm sorry that you have to deal with this. Make sure you've got support as well to help you - the emotional impact on you is rough.

[Finances_With_Purpose]

YES!!!

There is a VERY good chance that if you confront them with the facts as you currently understand them, they may say ALL the right things in response.

They could go off on you right away, maybe, but the bigger probability is that they respond with all the right words.

It's a trick.

SM knows what's coming, so she'll probably have prepared a response and primed your dad for it. She'll systematically work on him to discredit everything you say before and after you say it all the while making it sound like she's listening to you.

Reasonable people fall for lies very easily when those lies are totally reasonable statements. That's why it's sooo easy for unreasonable people to lie. They just have to say things that actually make sense in that context, and people will believe them, because they're saying reasonable things.

But it's a trick.

As usual, and with your prior post (that I meant to give a shoutout to), we're agreed, @Metalcat .  (I still have a hard time not typing in "malcat".) 

[Metalcat]

As usual, and with your prior post (that I meant to give a shoutout to), we're agreed, @Metalcat .  (I still have a hard time not typing in "malcat".)

Maybe I'll change it back when I get all the metal out. Although, by that point everyone will be used to it.

[Zamboni]

Thank you, everyone, for continuing to offer your thoughts. Obviously many of you have more experience with aging and/or irresponsible people than I do.

I was able to sit down with my Dad one-on-one and show him some numbers. I focused on the high altitude view and big picture. A Gail vaz Oxladesque reveal, but kinder, I hope. She understandably comes at people pretty hard. My main goal was to drive home that mostly importantly I love him, that we know their problem isn't medical bills (which it did seem like he already knew from his reaction), that they've crossed the line and can't quite pay their needs and minimum payments right now, and finally that SM's overspending must change immediately if they hope to keep their current home or maintain any decent standard of living.

Thanks to all of you, it was made clear during the discussion that the size of the problem is beyond the capacity or their children to solve, figure out how to solve, or even help in any meaningful way in terms of money.

[Metalcat]

Thank you, everyone, for continuing to offer your thoughts. Obviously many of you have more experience with aging and/or irresponsible people than I do.

I was able to sit down with my Dad one-on-one and show him some numbers. I focused on the high altitude view and big picture. A Gail vaz Oxladesque reveal, but kinder, I hope. She understandably comes at people pretty hard. My main goal was to drive home that mostly importantly I love him, that we know their problem isn't medical bills (which it did seem like he already knew from his reaction), that they've crossed the line and can't quite pay their needs and minimum payments right now, and finally that SM's overspending must change immediately if they hope to keep their current home or maintain any decent standard of living.

Thanks to all of you, it was made clear during the discussion that the size of the problem is beyond the capacity or their children to solve, figure out how to solve, or even help in any meaningful way in terms of money.

Not at all surprising.

Medical bills are a socially acceptable excuse for money problems, so I'm not at all surprised that he is complicit in perpetuating this myth because it allows them both, but mostly his wife to save face.

Your dad doesn't sound dumb or overly naive, it sounds like he's very actively made the decision to let her ruin his financial life because for some reason, she's worth it to him.

I'm glad you've done all of this, because the people you can help are yourself and your family by lifting the veil on the bullshit and making sure that everyone knows to stay out of it except to all refer them to professional financial help.

This is what I do with my family, I figure out what the issue is and help develop a party-line that everyone can use to neutralize the toxic force of a problematic person/couple.

Your parents are beyond your help, but your loved ones who are being manipulated *can* be helped, very effectively. So focus on your circle of influence and help those people.

[Villanelle]

SM has a spending addiction.  Dad has a SM* addiction.  It may help if you frame things that way for yourself.  Though there are complex factors at play, he's choosing to stay in the relatively unchanged situation, just as she's choosing to buy "yarn".  Unless and until they each treat their addiction and the psychological factors at play, this will not change in any meaningful and sustainable way. 


*it may be to SM specifically, or to being in a relationship, which is how he's likely spent most of his life, or to being loved, or something else he gets from being with her.  It may be a deep codependence or a fear of being alone.  But whatever it is, it is functioning much in the same way as an addition, and as such, he's not going to be rational and addressing the money won't change it. 

[Omy]

It sounds like you addressed it perfectly. Every time SM cries, just repeat the same mantra.

My father has become more dependent on my SM for day to day activities, so he has a similar approach of going along with whatever she says (even when his kids know it's not how he would handle things and that he once separated from her for being so controlling). We've let him know that he has a place to live if he wants it, but he's choosing to stay and we respect his decision even though we don't love the dynamic.

[TomTX]

As usual, and with your prior post (that I meant to give a shoutout to), we're agreed, @Metalcat .  (I still have a hard time not typing in "malcat".)

Maybe I'll change it back when I get all the metal out. Although, by that point everyone will be used to it.

You can't simply get all the metal out. After all: The Gods Made Heavy Metal: https://youtu.be/g4rlGog0XRc

[TomTX]

SM has a spending addiction.  Dad has a SM* addiction.  It may help if you frame things that way for yourself.  Though there are complex factors at play, he's choosing to stay in the relatively unchanged situation, just as she's choosing to buy "yarn".  Unless and until they each treat their addiction and the psychological factors at play, this will not change in any meaningful and sustainable way.

I'm wondering how the hell she has space to store $100k worth of "yarn" every year.

[Villanelle]

As usual, and with your prior post (that I meant to give a shoutout to), we're agreed, @Metalcat .  (I still have a hard time not typing in "malcat".)

Maybe I'll change it back when I get all the metal out. Although, by that point everyone will be used to it.

You can't simply get all the metal out. After all: The Gods Made Heavy Metal: https://youtu.be/g4rlGog0XRc

I've gone to "Mcat" because it covers all future iterations. 

[Zamboni]

SM has a spending addiction.  Dad has a SM* addiction.  It may help if you frame things that way for yourself.  Though there are complex factors at play, he's choosing to stay in the relatively unchanged situation, just as she's choosing to buy "yarn".  Unless and until they each treat their addiction and the psychological factors at play, this will not change in any meaningful and sustainable way.

I'm wondering how the hell she has space to store $100k worth of "yarn" every year.

The "yarn" involves a seemingly never ending stream of a gazillion very small things. Many, many, many special storage devices have been purchased to keep it sorted and stored in nearly every nook and cranny of their fairly big home. She also sometimes uses the "yarn" to make things that she gives to other people, often to great praise about how lovely it is that she made something so pretty herself. I'm sure that last part feeds her addiction. She calls it a business, but my review of their bank accounts show she made a whopping $4.25 (gross) selling her crafts this past month. For real.

At least from what I can see. For all I know there is a separate account tracked on another laptop somewhere which hides the spoils and massive profits from her yarn crafts empire.

But I doubt it . . . because over the past year I see pretty much no turnover at all of the items in the box of "yarn crafts for sale" that she keeps by the front door. From what I can tell her only sales are to her friends when they stop by.

[Zamboni]

I also want to add that the "yarn" isn't the only issue. It's just the one that sticks out the most because it's just so out of whack. There has also been high burn rates in other spending areas like food, first class travel, services like maids & landscaping, etc.

Oh, and gourmet cat food, which sounds familiar, doesn't it? But I'm not going to blame the cat for putting them in the poor house; the gourmet cat food is more symbolic than anything.

[Zamboni]

One thing I learned this week is that my Dad is fully onboard with enabling SM. He wanted me to go through things, but now he doesn't even want me to talk to her about it even though he knows I will be calm and kind about it. So, as I predicted, he is fine going down with the ship. He is also in complete denial about the bankruptcy trajectory they are on.

He claims that she knows she has a problem and that she is going to change. He doesn't want to upset her. But she bought more unneeded stuff online this very morning, which I told him, so all I can do is shrug.

One thing I did ask her about is the exterminator charges, which are quite high and keep recurring. Apparently they now have rats living under their house. She thinks the rats moved in to eat the large amount of gourmet food she puts out for the squirrels. Before I met her, I didn't even know one could buy special gourmet food for squirrels. At first she thought she only had one rat, so she named him and decided he was cute I guess? Now it sounds like there are in an uphill battle against a whole colony who have dug under. Is that what a group of rats is called?

Honestly I never saw a rat in Colorado before. Sure, I've seen rats in Boston and NYC, and I know they take up residence around livestock feed on farms, but I never heard of a single rat infestation in the 'burbs.

[Cassie]

It’s really sad that your dad is going down with the ship but nothing you can do.

[curious_george]

I assume you could easily crawl under the house to verify the rat story, which could save them some money...? How do they even know they have rats living under the house?

One of my tenants once claimed she saw a 6 foot snake crawl under one of my rental properties. I crawled under there with a flash light looking for the snake. Searched every foot of the crawl space and never did find it. Fun times.

[mspym]

It’s not hard to know you have rats - the damage and the poop is pretty unmistakable.

[Metalcat]

A group of rats is called a mischief, btw.

Also, gourmet squirrel food??? What the fucking fuck??

[G-dog]

A group of rats is called a mischief, btw.

Also, gourmet squirrel food??? What the fucking fuck??

My gawd! You don’t expect them to eat regular food, do you? 

[Metalcat]

A group of rats is called a mischief, btw.

Also, gourmet squirrel food??? What the fucking fuck??

My gawd! You don’t expect them to eat regular food, do you?

I didn't even know people purposefully fed squirrels.

[RetiredAt63]

A group of rats is called a mischief, btw.

Also, gourmet squirrel food??? What the fucking fuck??

My gawd! You don’t expect them to eat regular food, do you?

I didn't even know people purposefully fed squirrels.

Exactly.  Usually you unwillingly feed rats and mice and squirrels when you are feeding the birds.  Although people do feed chipmunks on purpose - being cute is useful.

If MIL stopped feeding the squirrels and there was no food, the rats would leave for greener pastures.  Because rats, yikes.

[Metalcat]

A group of rats is called a mischief, btw.

Also, gourmet squirrel food??? What the fucking fuck??

My gawd! You don’t expect them to eat regular food, do you?

I didn't even know people purposefully fed squirrels.

Exactly.  Usually you unwillingly feed rats and mice and squirrels when you are feeding the birds.  Although people do feed chipmunks on purpose - being cute is useful.

If MIL stopped feeding the squirrels and there was no food, the rats would leave for greener pastures.  Because rats, yikes.

Yeah, I have a deep love for rats, as you know, but there's no fucking way I would be throwing food around outside for any rodents, especially if I had an ongoing rat problem!

"Here ratty, ratty, ratties! Come eat my expensive snacks and then I'll hire an expensive service to murder you!"

This woman is insane.

[eyesonthehorizon]

I wish this weren’t happening, but failing that I wish it were ten years ago that I could have read this thread. Especially @Sibley ‘s bit. It’s been a tough but therapeutic review.

I’m sorry, Zamboni. It’s an awful place to be, but everyone here is correct, & you’ll get more adept at catching yourself with time, eventually before the sense of motivation/ need to act kicks in. Being able to disentangle the sadness from any belief in your ability to meaningfully intervene reduces the stress by half.

I have a squirrel-feeding relative but squirrels cost peanuts to feed. (The neighborhood birds of prey also benefit.) SM is really hooked on the idea of specific customized needs for every solution. Aside from it being terribly sad, I wonder what drive lies under that sort of magical thinking. Physical addiction/ substance abuse are simpler but the patterns are exactly the same.

[Zamboni]

I assume you could easily crawl under the house to verify the rat story, which could save them some money...? How do they even know they have rats living under the house?

One of my tenants once claimed she saw a 6 foot snake crawl under one of my rental properties. I crawled under there with a flash light looking for the snake. Searched every foot of the crawl space and never did find it. Fun times.

It seems like putting a big black snake under there would be by far the simplest solution for SM's rats. I should suggest this!

I have a pretty large number of birds and squirrels in my back yard regularly and I feed neither birds nor squirrels. SM didn't seem to believe me when I told her this the other day. I had to explain that the birds just hop around in my grass eating random stuff. Seeds? Worms? Insects? Don't know, I'm not a bird person.

I've watched the squirrels eat stuff off the trees which I learned are called "catkins." So there you go. Nature provides.

I do have a few big potted plants out on the deck that I water spring/summer/fall, and the water pools in the trays underneath each of those. I've seen all kinds of critters drinking from those: squirrels, birds, AND snakes.

[tygertygertyger]

I've been following this thread and learning a lot, but coming out of the woodwork to admit that we feed birds (and erm, squirrels...) I mean, the squirrels get a handful of peanuts every couple of weeks. They also eat what the birds drop.

Happy to feed the birds after reading how close to starvation they constantly are in the winter, but thanks for the nightmares about rats, everyone!

What IS cool (and totally unrelated to this thread) is watching hawks come in and land, waiting for their chance to nab a bird. And then the squirrel patrol catches wind of it, and go right up to the hawk, chests totally puffed out, letting the hawk know "this is OUR turf! get out of here!" 

[Turtle]

I've been following this thread and learning a lot, but coming out of the woodwork to admit that we feed birds (and erm, squirrels...) I mean, the squirrels get a handful of peanuts every couple of weeks. They also eat what the birds drop.

Happy to feed the birds after reading how close to starvation they constantly are in the winter, but thanks for the nightmares about rats, everyone!

What IS cool (and totally unrelated to this thread) is watching hawks come in and land, waiting for their chance to nab a bird. And then the squirrel patrol catches wind of it, and go right up to the hawk, chests totally puffed out, letting the hawk know "this is OUR turf! get out of here!"

Another feeder of birds here.  The pole and feeders were bought a decade ago, and the feed I use is just the bulk bags from Costco which last quite a long time.  Expense averages maybe $10 per month, which I find to be worth it.  All the little pockets of wild land in the area are being gobbled up by developers, so I feel like this is one of the little things I can do to help the birds as they're being squeezed.

[Zamboni]

Y'all probably have money to feed the birds, so feed away! They are pretty and I worry about their decline, although the insect decline isn't going to help that.

Also, I have nothing against rats. My friends has a pet rat named Lula and she dresses Lula up in hula skirts and flowers for picture day. Lula seems sweet. Can't make this up. Mice are also very cute.

As far as SM goes, I have suggested buying cheaper bird seed. She poo pooed that as having too much "filler." She buys feed at a place called "Wild Birds Unlimited." They have some sort of membership that I saw on the bank statements. Because of course they do. They seem to have A LOT of memberships and subscriptions.

One of the "squirrel-specific" foods I have seen her put out is some sort of peanut butter balls. It reminds me of the Skippy peanut butter balls I used to buy as a special treat for my kids. I bet the rats can smell those from 5 miles away.

[Sibley]

Sigh.

First, Zamboni, you shouldn't know that SM just bought more crap - it's not good for your mental health. Don't look. There's nothing you can do. Just drop the whole money conversation with both of them. Be a broken record "I'm sorry I can't help, you're going to need to talk to a professional."

Second, call the health department/code enforcement, tell them that SM is feeding the squirrels but it has caused a rat infestation and could they please get her to stop feeding wildlife. Pretend to be a neighbor if you want. Or if you know the neighbors, get them to call. After that, just be done. Because you will have tried, and if it doesn't work then nothing is going to work until it gets bad enough and SM is forced to stop feeding the wildlife for some reason, which you have no control over. If they destroy their relationship with the neighbors, that is the expected consequence of generating a rat infestation and they will have to live with those consequences.

Invite your dad over for coffee and play card games with him or whatever. Bonus points if you can get a couple other people together for coffee and card games. Social interaction is important, fostering strong social bonds is important, and you can help with that.

[Zamboni]

^Yeah, I know. It was a bad idea to look. It was actually my brother's request because he wanted to see if there was truly merit in the "she's going to stop" story, but I was the one who looked, so I accept full responsibility.

So now we know: despite what they say, she's not going to stop. You all already told me that. I'm out and plan to not look again. Brother and sister have agreed to not give them any more money. I shared the news with SM's son when he called me to ask about the situation. Unsurprisingly, she is asking him for money to "match" what my brother gave them. She has multiple children but only one still speaks to her from what she has told me, which is sad.

And the games thing is a good idea. I did play cards with my Dad and two of his friends recently and it was quite fun.

He has plenty of social interaction through his work, mostly with long time clients whom he now calls his friends. I'm sure it is why he is able to continue working at 80.

On the ugly side, SM has been trying to draw a few of Dad's clients/friends into her stories about their money and health woes. She has been doing this for years, actually. I hope she doesn't poison more of his relationships by conning people, but there is nothing I can do about it and he seems fine with it. One of those client/friends was playing cards with us the other night; he pulled me aside and asked me about it on the way out while my Dad was chatting up the other guest, and I told him not to give her money and was quite blunt that she lied to him about the medical expense amounts. Hopefully it absolved any guilty feelings he was having. It bothers me that she lies about it being for healthcare expenses when they could easily cover those by being even marginally prudent with money. Hopefully most people can see through that fluff and bluster.

If people want to give to a charity that isn't really a charity, though, then that is their business. They do have some medical expenses, of course, just like we all do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming for them and it certainly isn't out of the norm. I'm not sure at what point her story crosses the line to becoming criminal. It may be on that side of the line, but I don't know much about what is going on there.

[Kris]

^Yeah, I know. It was a bad idea to look. It was actually my brother's request because he wanted to see if there was truly merit in the "she's going to stop" story, but I was the one who looked, so I accept full responsibility.

So now we know: despite what they say, she's not going to stop. You all already told me that. I'm out and plan to not look again. Brother and sister have agreed to not give them any more money. I shared the news with SM's son when he called me to ask about the situation. Unsurprisingly, she is asking him for money to "match" what my brother gave them. She has multiple children but only one still speaks to her from what she has told me, which is sad.

And the games thing is a good idea. I did play cards with my Dad and two of his friends recently and it was quite fun.

He has plenty of social interaction through his work, mostly with long time clients whom he now calls his friends. I'm sure it is why he is able to continue working at 80.

On the ugly side, SM has been trying to draw a few of Dad's clients/friends into her stories about their money and health woes. She has been doing this for years, actually. I hope she doesn't poison more of his relationships by conning people, but there is nothing I can do about it and he seems fine with it. One of those client/friends was playing cards with us the other night; he pulled me aside and asked me about it on the way out while my Dad was chatting up the other guest, and I told him not to give her money and was quite blunt that she lied to him about the medical expense amounts. Hopefully it absolved any guilty feelings he was having. It bothers me that she lies about it being for healthcare expenses when they could easily cover those by being even marginally prudent with money. Hopefully most people can see through that fluff and bluster.

If people want to give to a charity that isn't really a charity, though, then that is their business. They do have some medical expenses, of course, just like we all do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming for them and it certainly isn't out of the norm. I'm not sure at what point her story crosses the line to becoming criminal. It may be on that side of the line, but I don't know much about what is going on there.

It's ugly and manipulative that she lies in that way. It shows a blatant disrespect and disregard for all those who care about her that she consciously tells them it's for medical bills, because she knows full well she has a better chance of getting money out of them by feeding them a story that will make them feel sorry for her. She clearly does not care about these people, only about their ability to help feed her selfishness. It's grotesque.

[wenchsenior]

I've been following this thread and learning a lot, but coming out of the woodwork to admit that we feed birds (and erm, squirrels...) I mean, the squirrels get a handful of peanuts every couple of weeks. They also eat what the birds drop.

Happy to feed the birds after reading how close to starvation they constantly are in the winter, but thanks for the nightmares about rats, everyone!

What IS cool (and totally unrelated to this thread) is watching hawks come in and land, waiting for their chance to nab a bird. And then the squirrel patrol catches wind of it, and go right up to the hawk, chests totally puffed out, letting the hawk know "this is OUR turf! get out of here!"

Another feeder of birds here.  The pole and feeders were bought a decade ago, and the feed I use is just the bulk bags from Costco which last quite a long time.  Expense averages maybe $10 per month, which I find to be worth it.  All the little pockets of wild land in the area are being gobbled up by developers, so I feel like this is one of the little things I can do to help the birds as they're being squeezed.

:threadhijak:  The most common types of hawks that haunt bird feeders cannot dream of tackling a squirrel...in fact, they don't eat mammals at all; they are usually Cooper's hawks or occasionally sharp-shinned hawks. They are bird eaters exclusively and also too small to readily challenge a full grown squirrel, which is probably why squirrels have little compunction about standing their ground.

There definitely are some raptors that will kill squirrels but they aren't the ones that people usually see in backyards.

[Turtle]

^Yeah, I know. It was a bad idea to look. It was actually my brother's request because he wanted to see if there was truly merit in the "she's going to stop" story, but I was the one who looked, so I accept full responsibility.

So now we know: despite what they say, she's not going to stop. You all already told me that. I'm out and plan to not look again. Brother and sister have agreed to not give them any more money. I shared the news with SM's son when he called me to ask about the situation. Unsurprisingly, she is asking him for money to "match" what my brother gave them. She has multiple children but only one still speaks to her from what she has told me, which is sad.

And the games thing is a good idea. I did play cards with my Dad and two of his friends recently and it was quite fun.

He has plenty of social interaction through his work, mostly with long time clients whom he now calls his friends. I'm sure it is why he is able to continue working at 80.

On the ugly side, SM has been trying to draw a few of Dad's clients/friends into her stories about their money and health woes. She has been doing this for years, actually. I hope she doesn't poison more of his relationships by conning people, but there is nothing I can do about it and he seems fine with it. One of those client/friends was playing cards with us the other night; he pulled me aside and asked me about it on the way out while my Dad was chatting up the other guest, and I told him not to give her money and was quite blunt that she lied to him about the medical expense amounts. Hopefully it absolved any guilty feelings he was having. It bothers me that she lies about it being for healthcare expenses when they could easily cover those by being even marginally prudent with money. Hopefully most people can see through that fluff and bluster.

If people want to give to a charity that isn't really a charity, though, then that is their business. They do have some medical expenses, of course, just like we all do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming for them and it certainly isn't out of the norm. I'm not sure at what point her story crosses the line to becoming criminal. It may be on that side of the line, but I don't know much about what is going on there.

It's ugly and manipulative that she lies in that way. It shows a blatant disrespect and disregard for all those who care about her that she consciously tells them it's for medical bills, because she knows full well she has a better chance of getting money out of them by feeding them a story that will make them feel sorry for her. She clearly does not care about these people, only about their ability to help feed her selfishness. It's grotesque.

This sounds no different than being addicted to cocaine or meth or painkillers - just that her drug of choice is shopping.

[Kris]

^Yeah, I know. It was a bad idea to look. It was actually my brother's request because he wanted to see if there was truly merit in the "she's going to stop" story, but I was the one who looked, so I accept full responsibility.

So now we know: despite what they say, she's not going to stop. You all already told me that. I'm out and plan to not look again. Brother and sister have agreed to not give them any more money. I shared the news with SM's son when he called me to ask about the situation. Unsurprisingly, she is asking him for money to "match" what my brother gave them. She has multiple children but only one still speaks to her from what she has told me, which is sad.

And the games thing is a good idea. I did play cards with my Dad and two of his friends recently and it was quite fun.

He has plenty of social interaction through his work, mostly with long time clients whom he now calls his friends. I'm sure it is why he is able to continue working at 80.

On the ugly side, SM has been trying to draw a few of Dad's clients/friends into her stories about their money and health woes. She has been doing this for years, actually. I hope she doesn't poison more of his relationships by conning people, but there is nothing I can do about it and he seems fine with it. One of those client/friends was playing cards with us the other night; he pulled me aside and asked me about it on the way out while my Dad was chatting up the other guest, and I told him not to give her money and was quite blunt that she lied to him about the medical expense amounts. Hopefully it absolved any guilty feelings he was having. It bothers me that she lies about it being for healthcare expenses when they could easily cover those by being even marginally prudent with money. Hopefully most people can see through that fluff and bluster.

If people want to give to a charity that isn't really a charity, though, then that is their business. They do have some medical expenses, of course, just like we all do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming for them and it certainly isn't out of the norm. I'm not sure at what point her story crosses the line to becoming criminal. It may be on that side of the line, but I don't know much about what is going on there.

It's ugly and manipulative that she lies in that way. It shows a blatant disrespect and disregard for all those who care about her that she consciously tells them it's for medical bills, because she knows full well she has a better chance of getting money out of them by feeding them a story that will make them feel sorry for her. She clearly does not care about these people, only about their ability to help feed her selfishness. It's grotesque.

This sounds no different than being addicted to cocaine or meth or painkillers - just that her drug of choice is shopping.

Very true. I'm just more acquainted with addicts to drugs or gambling. For some reason it's more jarring to me when I know the drug is, like, "yarn" and fancy animal food, etc. instead of meth. Not sure why, given that I'm on a forum that is all about the perils of consumerism.

[eyesonthehorizon]

:threadhijak:  The most common types of hawks that haunt bird feeders cannot dream of tackling a squirrel...in fact, they don't eat mammals at all; they are usually Cooper's hawks or occasionally sharp-shinned hawks. They are bird eaters exclusively and also too small to readily challenge a full grown squirrel, which is probably why squirrels have little compunction about standing their ground.

There definitely are some raptors that will kill squirrels but they aren't the ones that people usually see in backyards.

This may be somewhat regional depending on available prey. Cooper's hawks are at least opportunistic predators of fox squirrels where I live, especially of juveniles, & they also eat mice readily. But growing up our big red tailed hawks seemed to hunt squirrels with deliberate preference. (Possibly because said squirrels were too busy chubbily bumbling around after peanuts to pay attention or run away with due speed, but also the local patchwork tree canopy was pretty perfect for hunting anything on the ground.)

Sharp shinned hawks are much smaller, though.

[Sandi_k]

:threadhijak:  The most common types of hawks that haunt bird feeders cannot dream of tackling a squirrel...in fact, they don't eat mammals at all; they are usually Cooper's hawks or occasionally sharp-shinned hawks. They are bird eaters exclusively and also too small to readily challenge a full grown squirrel, which is probably why squirrels have little compunction about standing their ground.

So cool to see this today! DH has been feeding the birds since about 6 months into Covid, as a way to entertain the cats. Now we've turned into bird watchers - and in the past few weeks, we've had birds of prey show up.

DH got a pic of one of them this week, and I had ID'd it as either a Cooper's hawk, or a sharp-shinned hawk. ;)

[wenchsenior]

:threadhijak:  The most common types of hawks that haunt bird feeders cannot dream of tackling a squirrel...in fact, they don't eat mammals at all; they are usually Cooper's hawks or occasionally sharp-shinned hawks. They are bird eaters exclusively and also too small to readily challenge a full grown squirrel, which is probably why squirrels have little compunction about standing their ground.

So cool to see this today! DH has been feeding the birds since about 6 months into Covid, as a way to entertain the cats. Now we've turned into bird watchers - and in the past few weeks, we've had birds of prey show up.

DH got a pic of one of them this week, and I had ID'd it as either a Cooper's hawk, or a sharp-shinned hawk. ;)

They are fun. I just last week walked under a nice adult female Coop in my neighborhood, hanging out on a low oak branch. I can probably ID your bird if you send me the photo.

[tygertygertyger]

((Sorry to continue the hijack but...))

These squirrel standoffs have been with cooper's hawks. Though there was one cooper's hawk stalking a squirrel in the front yard... the squirrel eventually ran under a parked car and tried to wait it out, while the hawk paced around the car.

[wenchsenior]

:threadhijak:  The most common types of hawks that haunt bird feeders cannot dream of tackling a squirrel...in fact, they don't eat mammals at all; they are usually Cooper's hawks or occasionally sharp-shinned hawks. They are bird eaters exclusively and also too small to readily challenge a full grown squirrel, which is probably why squirrels have little compunction about standing their ground.

There definitely are some raptors that will kill squirrels but they aren't the ones that people usually see in backyards.

This may be somewhat regional depending on available prey. Cooper's hawks are at least opportunistic predators of fox squirrels where I live, especially of juveniles, & they also eat mice readily. But growing up our big red tailed hawks seemed to hunt squirrels with deliberate preference. (Possibly because said squirrels were too busy chubbily bumbling around after peanuts to pay attention or run away with due speed, but also the local patchwork tree canopy was pretty perfect for hunting anything on the ground.)

Sharp shinned hawks are much smaller, though.

Yeah, RTs will take them for sure, even out of the trees at times. Interestingly, my husband just wrote a book about Texas raptors, and now I was running around the house to see if I could find opportunistic mammal predation by Coops noted in it. But I can't find the book, even though I'm quite certain there are several copies around the house.

ETA: Found it; you are correct!  Occasional opportunistic predation on small mammals, particularly by the females. (I had this creeping dread that somehow some diet lit had escaped my husband during writing, but clearly I was worried for nothing).

I'm now feeling envious that in all my years of watching Coops, I've never seen one swoop a squirrel on a test run. I've always said: if squirrels weighed 20 lbs they would  be terrifying LOL. I wouldn't want to tackle one if I were a Coop. Not when there are doves everywhere.

[eyesonthehorizon]

... Though there was one cooper's hawk stalking a squirrel in the front yard... the squirrel eventually ran under a parked car and tried to wait it out, while the hawk paced around the car.

That's hilarious.

@wenchsenior The times I've seen Cooper's eat what I could clearly identify as mice were out in chaparral, they do prefer white wing dove in the deciduous woods I'm most familiar with, but the squirrels I've seen them eat in the latter environment were mostly dumb youngsters. I guess when you've run off all the coyote & bobcats, & diminished the gray fox population, somebody's got to.

My family has definitely had a relationship to Wild Birds Unlimited, but as the fancy place you got birdwatchers decennial birthday presents from, usually found in the sort of affluent consumer shopping hubs where you see a lot of wellness branding. I can imagine routine purchases there for someone already calibrated toward daydreamy feel-good shopping could result in fairly stratospheric bills.

[Metalcat]

This forum is hilarious.

Things I did not expect today: a thread about a fraud committing mother-in-law with a "yarn" shopping addiction to turn into a bird watching thread.

Fucking love this place.

[TomTX]

This forum is hilarious.

Things I did not expect today: a thread about a fraud committing mother-in-law with a "yarn" shopping addiction to turn into a bird watching thread.

Fucking love this place.

I intentionally fed the squirrels in my backyard yesterday! Normally they just get whatever the birds drop out of the feeder, but I found a baggie of nuts which had been in the back of the fridge FAR too long - so rather than compost, I put it out for the squirrels.

Now, back to accumulating "yarn" ;D

[eyesonthehorizon]

This forum is hilarious.

Things I did not expect today: a thread about a fraud committing mother-in-law with a "yarn" shopping addiction to turn into a bird watching thread.

Fucking love this place.

I just had the same thought & a good laugh over the fact that I was able to spark a semi-serious discussion of the R-value of relative hair lengths in the "stupidest things we're lusting over" thread.

I also have a weird history, so "relatives committing fraud" & "raptor prey selection" occupy the same place in my brain - but for my experience with the former I'd have someone to share wenchsenior's husband's book with on the latter. Life's a big, weird jumble.

[Villanelle]

Personally, I would avoid telling other people about this, especially if I wasn't close to them (IOW, your dad's friend/work contact is different than your brother).  It just has the potential to make you the bad guy when this person goes back to dad and SM and tells them that sorry, no, he can't give money because Zamboni says it isn't actually for med expense and that they have a spending problem.  Stay out of it.  "Sorry Bob, I have made a vow to stay out of dad and SM's finances, so I can't help you with that." 

It's not your job to save friend Bob any more than it is to save Dad and SM. Bob is free to ask questions of dad and SM, and see if they pass the sniff test.  Don't make yourself the bad guy.  It can hurt your relationship with dad, and it also positions SM to make you look like a mean son from whom they need saving. 

[Metalcat]

Personally, I would avoid telling other people about this, especially if I wasn't close to them (IOW, your dad's friend/work contact is different than your brother).  It just has the potential to make you the bad guy when this person goes back to dad and SM and tells them that sorry, no, he can't give money because Zamboni says it isn't actually for med expense and that they have a spending problem.  Stay out of it.  "Sorry Bob, I have made a vow to stay out of dad and SM's finances, so I can't help you with that." 

It's not your job to save friend Bob any more than it is to save Dad and SM. Bob is free to ask questions of dad and SM, and see if they pass the sniff test.  Don't make yourself the bad guy.  It can hurt your relationship with dad, and it also positions SM to make you look like a mean son from whom they need saving.

Facts.

@Zamboni you need to focus on boundaries

[Kris]

This forum is hilarious.

Things I did not expect today: a thread about a fraud committing mother-in-law with a "yarn" shopping addiction to turn into a bird watching thread.

Fucking love this place.

I just had the same thought & a good laugh over the fact that I was able to spark a semi-serious discussion of the R-value of relative hair lengths in the "stupidest things we're lusting over" thread.

*scurries over to that thread to read it*

[Zamboni]

I have a squirrel that like avocado. I know this because he or she somehow got an avocado peel by pulling it through the vent of the compost bin and then scraped it clean. So now I put those peels on top of the bin until they clean them. I'm not anti-squirrel . . .  but I'm not buying them whole avocados either.

Back more on topic: thankfully I don't actually see their friends much, so the boundaries part in that regard should not be that hard.

While I understand where you are coming from on me developing better boundaries, I don't actually care anymore if she decides I'm a big meanie. She's probably already decided I'm a meanie since I won't give them money. In my opinion SM has become a predator. Maybe she always was? She has certainly always been manipulative. The people she is preying on now are other senior citizens (my Dad's friends and her friends) and her own family and some of her neighbors. If one of my Dad's retired friends point blank asks me about some specific dollar amount for some specific detailed calamity she has conveyed, then it's going to be really hard for me to avoid saying "actually . . . " because I don't want to be complicit. All it takes for evil to fester and grow is for good people to always look the other way. If someone asks me a specific question, I'm not going to lie to them by playing dumb, which frankly is what my Dad has done in some of these cases and it ticks me off. Anyway, it probably won't come up much.

[Metalcat]

I have a squirrel that like avocado. I know this because he or she somehow got an avocado peel by pulling it through the vent of the compost bin and then scraped it clean. So now I put those peels on top of the bin until they clean them. I'm not anti-squirrel . . .  but I'm not buying them whole avocados either.

Back more on topic: thankfully I don't actually see their friends much, so the boundaries part in that regard should not be that hard.

While I understand where you are coming from on me developing better boundaries, I don't actually care anymore if she decides I'm a big meanie. She's probably already decided I'm a meanie since I won't give them money. In my opinion SM has become a predator. Maybe she always was? She has certainly always been manipulative. The people she is preying on now are other senior citizens (my Dad's friends and her friends) and her own family and some of her neighbors. If one of my Dad's retired friends point blank asks me about some specific dollar amount for some specific detailed calamity she has conveyed, then it's going to be really hard for me to avoid saying "actually . . . " because I don't want to be complicit. All it takes for evil to fester and grow is for good people to always look the other way. If someone asks me a specific question, I'm not going to lie to them by playing dumb, which frankly is what my Dad has done in some of these cases and it ticks me off. Anyway, it probably won't come up much.

As long as you are totally comfortable with the consequences to your relationship with your father, then that's a perfectly reasonable boundary.

It's reasonable to say you won't be complicit in a lie. Just as long as your are clear and comfortable with the consequences.

[former player]

If Zamboni just says "I've made a vow to stay out of Dad's and SM's finances" that ought to be a big red flag all of its own, especially if accompanied by what cheap novels (I like cheap novels) calls "a speaking look".  But given that SM is almost certainly committing criminal offences then being upfront about anyone else not getting involved is also a good option.

[rockeTree]

When winter is deep the raccoons are willing to work the latch to open my compost and dig out the least rotten things, so I guess I am feeding them a bit. And I have been thinking of getting some cheap big bags of peanuts for the squirrels to put on the patio table they like and keep them from hassling the bird feeder so much. All this is $12 a month or so, and my coopers hawks prefer mourning doves to anything else as best as I can tell. I did look up wild birds unlimited but you have to log in to even see the prices! So I guess they are eye-watering.

Sorry about your dad, Zamboni. All of that is no fun.

[Villanelle]

I have a squirrel that like avocado. I know this because he or she somehow got an avocado peel by pulling it through the vent of the compost bin and then scraped it clean. So now I put those peels on top of the bin until they clean them. I'm not anti-squirrel . . .  but I'm not buying them whole avocados either.

Back more on topic: thankfully I don't actually see their friends much, so the boundaries part in that regard should not be that hard.

While I understand where you are coming from on me developing better boundaries, I don't actually care anymore if she decides I'm a big meanie. She's probably already decided I'm a meanie since I won't give them money. In my opinion SM has become a predator. Maybe she always was? She has certainly always been manipulative. The people she is preying on now are other senior citizens (my Dad's friends and her friends) and her own family and some of her neighbors. If one of my Dad's retired friends point blank asks me about some specific dollar amount for some specific detailed calamity she has conveyed, then it's going to be really hard for me to avoid saying "actually . . . " because I don't want to be complicit. All it takes for evil to fester and grow is for good people to always look the other way. If someone asks me a specific question, I'm not going to lie to them by playing dumb, which frankly is what my Dad has done in some of these cases and it ticks me off. Anyway, it probably won't come up much.

It's not about her deciding you are big meanie.  It's about damaging your relationship with your father.

Saying you aren't getting involved isn't lying or playing dumb.  And I very much agree with FP.  If someone told me exactly what I said in that quote, it would take no leap at all for me to realize there was more at play than just some surprise medical bills and I'd be completely clear on the fact that this was all a hot mess I should avoid.  It's kind of a damning through inference, but with the added ability for you to honestly tell your dad you never shit-talked them to his friends.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with calling out the lie.  You just have to accept that it may well badly hurt your relationship with your father, and his willingness to come to you if and when he ever actually gets clarity and wants out or to get real assistance. 

[Finances_With_Purpose]

I'm all for boundaries, but I'm all for your response to your dad's friend, @Zamboni . 

The relationship is going to suffer either way, and you didn't invite the discussion, so I certainly wouldn't feel compelled to keep quiet in light of direct questions about it (or solicitations in my presence, no matter how awkward that made things). 

I might have tried one of the more subtle approaches, maybe, but people also miss subtlety all the time.  I think it makes great sense to be clear and direct when dealing with grift/potentially criminal stuff.  No good comes from being fuzzy about it: you're either helping the con happen or you're being a stick in the mud.  And I would always choose to be that stick in the mud when it comes to grift.