Author Topic: Planning Futility  (Read 4802 times)

Heart of Tin

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Planning Futility
« on: May 21, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »
I just need to rant a little. My boss informed me this morning that I will become ineligible for our company's 401(k) in September. If nothing about my employment situation changes, I will lose $800 in Saver's Tax Credit*, $655.20 in employer match contributions, and $4,233.60 will be excluded from pre-tax accounts*. My overall tax liability will rise by $1,131 (3.34% of gross income) for the year. Additionally, I will be dipping into my emergency fund by about $200 per month for the next four months of earnings (to be replenished by the first paycheck without 401(k), but increasing my exposure to the risk of not having enough in my emergency fund in the meantime), and my IRA contributions will stop until September (so statistically I will buy in at a higher price). Lastly, I will need to open a taxable account before the end of the year in order to maintain my current cash flow into investment accounts, something I had hoped to put off until I had a higher income.

Booooooooo! Tonight I'm drinking until I can no longer understand the math behind the above consequences which will take a while since it's mostly addition and multiplication. Please facepunch my complainypants if necessary.

*My employer limits 401(k) contributions to 40% of gross earnings. This favors more highly compensated employees. Anyone earning over $43,750 is unaffected by this stupid rule if they have all year to contribute. Thinking about it makes me angry, so I'll stop writing about it now.

Eric

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 03:55:25 PM »
How do you lose eligibility?  That's some bullshit right there.  I'd be pissed as hell too.  After your hangover wears off, consider polishing off that resume.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 04:28:53 PM »
wow, that's a ripoff. I thought there were supposed to be rules in place for 401ks so that they don't overly favor "highly compensated employees"?

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 04:29:54 PM »
...also, not sure I'm 100% understanding the situation, but in terms of losing the employer match, is this something that could be remedied by spreading out your contributions a little more over the rest of the year?

Eric

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 05:04:07 PM »
...also, not sure I'm 100% understanding the situation, but in terms of losing the employer match, is this something that could be remedied by spreading out your contributions a little more over the rest of the year?

He's not even eligible anymore.  So there's no 401k contribution, no match, and definitely nothing to spread out.

Heart of Tin

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 05:10:31 PM »
...also, not sure I'm 100% understanding the situation, but in terms of losing the employer match, is this something that could be remedied by spreading out your contributions a little more over the rest of the year?

I already upped my contribution to 40 percent, the maximum allowable by my employer. The numbers above already count that bit of damage control, hence spending $200 per month more than my take home for the next few months while getting as much out the 401k as possible.

I'm with Eric. I better polish up my interview skills. Now back to my Manhattan.

Jamesqf

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 06:44:03 PM »
*My employer limits 401(k) contributions to 40% of gross earnings. This favors more highly compensated employees. Anyone earning over $43,750 is unaffected by this stupid rule if they have all year to contribute. Thinking about it makes me angry, so I'll stop writing about it now.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but doesn't the IRS limit employee contributions to $17500/year?  http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics---401(k)-and-Profit-Sharing-Plan-Contribution-Limits  If your annual salary is over $43,750, and you've been contributing 40% or more, at some point you will run into that IRS limit, no?  So if the employer matches say 50% of contributions up to 6% of income, figured per paycheck, it seems as though you just shot yourself in the foot by not spreading your contributions equally over the year.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:49:15 PM by Jamesqf »

LalsConstant

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 09:47:23 PM »
Okay I am lost how any of this makes any sense.  I know there's a lot of arcane rules about 401ks and the term "highly compensated employee" pops up a lot in them, but I don't understand  how you can "lose" the financial benefits because your income isn't high enough.

Look this was never an area of expertise for me, but this doesn't sound right.  You should just hit a "wall" at some point, depending on how your plan is set up, where you simply can't shove any more money into the 401k.  If the plan itself doesn't voluntarily set a lower limit than the IRS allows, at some point you're going to reach your $17,500 (or more if you're old enough to do "catch ups") limit.

It's not personal, there are limits built into these things.  They're meant for average to low earners to have plenty of space to save in while not allowing the higher earning folks to save too much on the old tax bill.

The way this is supposed to work, the last time I checked, is that if Alice earns $200,000 and Bob earns $40,000 a year, and both contribute 43.75% (I'm fudging the numbers) into their 401k, Bob will keep saving $1458.33 every month of the calendar year give or take a penny here and there.  At his savings rate and income, I've fudged an example where he can shove away money every month and never run out of "space". 

Bob, like many of us, is just not well compensated enough to possibly have a problem with running out of tax advantaged space even if he's super Mustachian.  If his kick ass 401k savings aren't enough, he can then start dumping money into a (probably Roth) IRA, and if that's still not enough, he can at least buy some I or EE bonds from Treasury Direct.

But Alice will be kicking in $7291.67 a month, that is until March, at which point if  your payroll clerks and your software are worth a hoot, something  will kick off and say "Nope, sorry Alice, you've hit the $17,500 mark already, no more saving for you."  She probably makes too much money to open a Roth IRA the conventional way, and she can buy the bonds too but the limit on them is pretty low compared to how much she can save.

Not saying I am a fan of the current tax system but that is how it's supposed to work.  Dillinger robbed banks because that's where the money was.  Alice can't tax shelter nearly as much of her income, proportionally, as Bob can.

If anything since the maximum amount creeps up a little every year, you ought to see more (absolute) benefit from your 401k contributions if you're maxing it out.  I also don't fathom how you suddenly become ineligible for the 401k unless it's some weird rule dealing with highly compensated employees or something like that that I don't know about, or how you're calculating the tax liabilities.

Am I just not understanding something here?  It just sounds to me like you're kicking so much ass the retirement plan you have can't handle it.  It's not personal, it's going to be something in place at any job.

I think someone in your office is explaining this to you badly.  I think I am too, but I am guessing what's going on here behind the curtain.

Look into an IRA or tax deferred savings bonds or just buy some tax efficient investment (like a stock index fund) in a taxable account and call it a day is what I say, unless I am just not getting the situation here.  Maybe this will help?

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Principles_of_tax-efficient_fund_placement

Heart of Tin

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 11:10:45 PM »
Hey Lals, I don't think I explained clearly. I am not a highly compensated employee a la Alice in your example. I actually make less than Bob at a Fortune 100 company. There is an artificial limit put in place by my company whereby all employees can contribute at most 40 percent of salary to their 401k. This feels like salt in the wound to an already lower salaried worker like me saving as much as I can. There is no way for me to meet the federal 401k limit of $17,500 since 40 percent of my yearly salary is less than $17,500. I had planned to contribute 35 percent until the end of the year, but now that my year is shorter I will have a higher AGI and thus my Saver's Tax Credit is reduced from $1,000 to $200. There is no way to fix this unless I can find a different way to lower my AGI. My current withholdings reflect the full tax credit, so on top of everything else I will have to make up about $97 extra in tax per paycheck for the rest of the year to make up for the reduction in credits.Also, because I am increasing my contribution to the max for as long as possible, my take home pay will fall to $200 less than my expenses for the next few months.

This is just a shitty situation where my tax burden is increasing, the amount of money that I can put in tax sheltered accounts in decreasing, and my overall compensation is decreasing. Because I had optimized my contributions based on the previous status quo, my previous planning was a waste, and I am basically trying to salvage the rest of the rest of the year. I need a new job.

NewStachian

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 04:06:17 AM »
I originally thought you were no longer eligible due to your income, but I see that you're now trying to make up payments before September due to your 40% cap. Why will you no longer be eligible for your 401(k)?

First, kudos for having that salary and maxing your 401(k) and ROTH IRA every year. That's impressive. (I'm assuming you're also maxing your ROTH since that's a MUCH better vehicle to be in than a tax-deferred vehicle at your income level)

Second, you're in such a low marginal tax bracket with your 40% contributions that not being able to max your 401(k) shouldn't affect you all that much. On top of that, your new taxable account should be immune from long-term capital gains for your income level. If you're careful to properly allocate the assets in your taxable account and keep your dividend assets in your tax-deferred account, you should be able to mitigate this issue pretty well.

Finally, if your employer offers you a 401(k) plan, you're "locked into" that plan and a lot of other individual plans aren't possible to use. However, if you are no longer eligible for your work's plan, I think there are a lot of ways to defer even more money if you want (maybe up to 52k?). Although you'd still be missing out on the match, you could possibly still get to the level to max your saver tax credit, which I believe is based on AGI? I don't know the explicit details on this, but it might be worth looking into.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 04:25:39 AM by NewStachian »

LalsConstant

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 06:39:25 AM »
Ah, okay thank you for explaining that.  Now it makes sense what the problem is: your plan has decided on rules that, in your case, set the total contribution limit below the absolute maximum the IRS allows.  Before the rules let you save what you wanted to, and now they don’t.

Okay that sucks.  But I was right in the sense that you’re just kicking more ass than the system can handle.  I wish I was as cool as you.  It’ll happen someday.  I love communicating with people who kick this much ass.

But for now,  I’m honestly not surprised you’re having this problem, as someone who is trying to become more frugal and save more I’ve started to realize that the more money you save the less you fit the “rules” that everyone is supposed to follow.

I work in an office where the majority of my coworkers don’t contribute more than 1% (because that’s the automatic enrollment rate) to the 401k.  As a result our 401k has some unfavorable provisions, because so few people care about it.  The trouble is because most people don't even TRY to save anything, I am pretty sure it's like that in many if not most places. 

So we have a rule very similar to yours that could create the same situation.  I do monitor similar employers, etc. and I’ve seen most of them have a rule like you’re running into.   I’ve even seen one case where the most you could put it was 25%.  That’s crazy!

I really don’t understand it, you’d think the 401k custodian would want as much money as possible in the plan, more fees for them.  I can only guess the organizations/companies are doing it as some kind of misguided paternalism.  I know the IRS lets them impose a lower limit than the maximum one the IRS allows, but I don't grasp why anyone does so.

Your industry might be different though.  But if I were you, I would put this all in a schedule, show a “Before” and “After” with your actual numbers, and take this to someone with the power to influence things and explain very calmly why this change upsets you.  I would then ask what the organization is going to do to address this situation, if anything.  I would think the person you need to talk to should be the same person you’d turn a resignation letter in to.

And if they say we aren’t going to do anything, I’d politely ask them to repeat and confirm that, and then walk out of there smiling and go do what I thought was appropriate.

Personally I'd make these lemons into lemonade and open or contribute to a Roth IRA.  Sure there are no tax advantages now, but Roth IRAs have some interesting features besides the tax treatment that might be useful to you.

NewStachian

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 09:12:19 AM »
LalsConstant brings up many good points. I don't know anything about your employer, but the 40% might be arbitrary. They might have had to set a cap and picked that one because it was an "absurd" level of savings. They might easily change it if you talk to the right people. (Many decisions are made simply because they need to be made. If they don't appear to affect people they're made quickly and arbitrarily with no malicious intent).

But, I don't think that changes the underlying problem that you won't be eligible for the plan in September. I still wouldn't mind hearing why that is.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Planning Futility
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 04:06:35 PM »
I still don't understand why your year is ending early/you're suddenly becoming ineligible. I'm guessing it is something you just don't want to explain? either way, major fucking annoying bummer, dude :(