Author Topic: plan for assisted living in your calculations??  (Read 2881 times)

albireo13

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plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« on: April 20, 2017, 04:33:31 AM »
In the quest for FIRE, most calculations don't seem to consider a significant expense down the road ...  assisted living or nursing home needs.

My elder parents have always been frugal, being raised in the Depression era.  They saved well, have lived comfortably but, sensibly and would likely be considered good "Mustachians" by today's standards.   Now they are looking at assisted living options.
The costs are staggering and you really need to have significant net worth left over even when your in the late 80s.
Their assets are their home and leftover savings but, this is barely enough and they see limited options.

Do folks factor in a requirement for this in their FIRE calculations?  If you do, the results are most depressing.
I am starting to worry about this for my wife and I and it's making me think to push out retirement in order to sock more $$ away.

Am I being too anal?   Anybody else think about this?



andreamac

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 05:21:34 AM »
I've also wondered about this as my dad is in his 80's and his health is getting worse. Unfortunately he doesn't have the resources that your parents have so the options where I live (big city mid range cost of living) are pretty bleak. It would be a government funded home where care isn't always the greatest. If he stayed where he is currently in a rural situation, it would be a better government run home but me and my two sisters would never get to see him (he leaves on a remote island that takes about 6 hours to fly to or 2 days to drive/ferry).

marty998

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 05:45:42 AM »
You would factor it in whether you retire early or late, but it's tricky for example if you don't have a family history of dementia or other ailments with which to estimate or base scenarios on.

If you're moving into a nursing home, then you don't exactly need the family home anymore so selling that would one of a range of "last resort" options.

Most here are quite conservative FIRE much later than they could otherwise, even increasing net worth in FIRE substantially.


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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 05:49:22 AM »
Healthcare/Assisted living are a completely separate FIRE category for me.   500k is what I'm allocating for those alone using an expected 4% withdrawal rate.   Thus 20k per year for my wife and I.  I'm not sure even that is enough.  I don't have an HSA because of my current plan has too low of a deductible.  I will as soon as I quit work.  For now it's all in one pile.
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albireo13

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 06:03:34 AM »
I haven't allocated savings for this yet.   The options are so expensive that you virtually have to double what you thought you need for a 'Stash in order to have the savings to pay for it.
  In my case I hope I kick the bucket by 85.  I have no need to live longer than that and in no way do I want to be a burden to my kids later on in life.



dude

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 06:10:23 AM »
I have LTC insurance. Of course, because the insurance companies vastly underpriced these plans when they originated them, my premiums have gone up -- well, actually I opted to keep my premium the same but lower my benefit.  I don't know if these plans will remain viable 10-20 years from now. We'll see.  However, I do remember sharing an article from Scott Burns a while back that noted few of us will actually spend much time in nursing care.  The average stay was quite short -- it was the outliers who pulled the numbers way up. So I think it's not as big a problem as many make it out to be.  Also, perhaps assisted suicide will gain more traction in our culture and we'll be able to do the rational thing and pull the plug when life isn't worth living anymore.

Blueskies123

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 06:18:59 AM »
I would have bet you would not get much of a response to this question on MMM or if you did get responses they will say no to your question.    To answer your question of course this issue needs to be considered.  In my plan if either has to go to the a nursing home we would sell our large house (in a HCOL area)  since it is too big even for the two of us let alone one of us.
If we ever do downsize we would invest all the proceeds in a smaller but equally expensive home or condo.
Most people here will hope to be dead by 85 or go on the government dole.


mizzourah2006

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 07:43:37 AM »
The average stay in a LTC facility is only 835 days. I have 2 assumptions; 1. Only one of us will end up in LTC (probably the wife), 2. Social Security income will be able to cover about a third of it. So if you estimate 4 years, which would be well above the 835 days and if you don't care if you deplete that amount of money from your account you probably don't need a ton more.

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 07:58:24 AM »
in general the 4% rule allows money to grow exponentially.  outside of retiring in a few bad years you will have piles left at the end of your life. 

I actually have been thinking about this recently and what/how to even include this in calculations.  My Grandparents are reaching this point and i've been made aware of the costs thru conversation with my father. They are quite large. 

So my plan is to have half a plan.  with the following things in mind

1. I like making money, when i quit my corporate job i will likely continue making money doing random things that involve little to no effort
2. As stated above the 4% rule grows money exponentially.  If you really want it to grow exponentially use a variable spending method ... i plan to only used variable spending for downside protection the first 5-10 years and not increase my withdrawals based on what it says.  i plan to use a floor 10% less than current with no cap on the max side.  This will likely - based on historic cases make our money grow into piles of cash. 

so am i planning for it dollar for dollar. no but do i have some flexibility in my plans that will likely allow for this if needed.  Yes. projecting the sequence of returns over 50 years is impossible to do and thats where the risk really lies, so using the flexibility above i think we'll have plenty left to cover our costs if this is needed.
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Mezzie

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 08:03:56 AM »
I have LTC insurance on my husband; I wasn't eligible due to pre-existing conditions. For now, I'm hoping that if we need/choose to live in an assisted living facility when we age, we can sell our house to pay for it. My great-grandfather did that and had plenty to spare, but it does seem like assisted living facility prices are increasing faster than home prices.
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Milizard

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 08:22:28 AM »
Healthcare/Assisted living are a completely separate FIRE category for me.   500k is what I'm allocating for those alone using an expected 4% withdrawal rate.   Thus 20k per year for my wife and I.  I'm not sure even that is enough.  I don't have an HSA because of my current plan has too low of a deductible.  I will as soon as I quit work.  For now it's all in one pile.

$4000/month was the cost I heard about 7 years ago.  I inquired about basic care for my mom 3 years ago.  $3,450/month for a small studio.  You can do the math.  Extra help costs more $$$.  Nursing homes are more.  $8000/month for that is what I saw 3 years ago.  This is a LCOLA, but not that LC for care, so YMMV a bit.  I was thinking at the time that hiring some people on your own and having a Golden Girls type of boarding house might be much more cost effective.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »
I have LTC insurance on my husband; I wasn't eligible due to pre-existing conditions. For now, I'm hoping that if we need/choose to live in an assisted living facility when we age, we can sell our house to pay for it. My great-grandfather did that and had plenty to spare, but it does seem like assisted living facility prices are increasing faster than home prices.

Same.  The plan is to keep policy on husband (hopefully).  For me, I'm planning on working until I have at least an additional 250K, which will hopefully cover me.  Unfortunately, all three of my late-living grandparents spent extensive time (more than 5 years) in nursing homes or with live-in care, so it does not seem at all unlikely to me. 

marion10

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 09:19:31 AM »
Having been through this with my mother in law (and things may change)- there is a difference between assisted living and a nursing home. My MIL was in a nursing home for about 6 years because of dementia and other complications. By the end it was over 100,000 a year. She exhausted all of her assets in about a year and then went on Medicaid. (Not Medicare). The nursing home took her SS and small pension and Medicaid picked up the rest. Before that, she was able to handle mild memory loss by living with her husband and then when he died, one of her children moved in with her. Around here, assisted living for one person is between $3,000-$4,000 a month for a small apartment with meals and linen service and activities. You will pay extra for things like medication services.

Another option is to buy into a continuing care community that has a gamut from independent living to  nursing home. You usually pay a large entrance fee (several hundred thousand dollars). This is what my grandmother did. You have to be in relatively good health to enter.

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ooeei

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 11:57:55 AM »
I'm actually helping my girlfriend's parents deal with this sort of situation right now.  There are ways to structure your assets to "shield" them from Medicaid calculations depending on your specific scenario.  It's all very complicated, and almosts punishes people for saving money until they are extremely wealthy, at which point they can just pay it all themselves.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/medicaid-eligibility-questions/

My grandparents were in assisted living for I think 3-4 years, and my grandfather almost couldn't bear to spend the money on it.  They had plenty, but had to dip into principle a bit near the end.  They picked a great facility and actually bought two rooms and combined them into a suite.  Selling their house funded the majority of their stay, and they had significant investments that helped as well.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 12:01:50 PM by ooeei »

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 12:01:15 PM »
or just go live on a cruise ship.  all your meals and assistance for much less that 4k a month plus entertainment and community etc. i find cruises for much less than 100 a day including booze. and you get a balcony.
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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 12:04:06 PM »
or just go live on a cruise ship.  all your meals and assistance for much less that 4k a month plus entertainment and community etc. i find cruises for much less than 100 a day including booze. and you get a balcony.

I think if you're able to live on a cruise ship, you most likely don't need an assisted living facility.  Assisted living has assistants checking in to make sure you haven't fallen, helps you on/off the toilet or to shower if needed, sorts out all of your medication, and are trained to deal with memory problems.

Cruise ships are great fun for a healthy but lonely person.

dude

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 12:20:53 PM »
Healthcare/Assisted living are a completely separate FIRE category for me.   500k is what I'm allocating for those alone using an expected 4% withdrawal rate.   Thus 20k per year for my wife and I.  I'm not sure even that is enough.  I don't have an HSA because of my current plan has too low of a deductible.  I will as soon as I quit work.  For now it's all in one pile.

$4000/month was the cost I heard about 7 years ago.  I inquired about basic care for my mom 3 years ago.  $3,450/month for a small studio.  You can do the math.  Extra help costs more $$$.  Nursing homes are more.  $8000/month for that is what I saw 3 years ago.  This is a LCOLA, but not that LC for care, so YMMV a bit.  I was thinking at the time that hiring some people on your own and having a Golden Girls type of boarding house might be much more cost effective.

There are HUGE price variations depending on geography.  And that's just in the U.S.  There are places in Mexico and S.America now catering to aging Americans that are a fraction of the cost.

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cloudsail

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 01:10:16 PM »
I was also going to say that live in care isn't nearly as expensive in other areas of the world. Of course, if you have always lived in North America your entire life it'd be hard to move when you're really old.

FI4good

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2017, 01:40:03 PM »
average cost of a care home place in the UK is £30,000 a year. the average length of stay is 2 1/2 years. The stash is big enough to deal with that and have money left over. Currently i could afford to stay in one for 6.5 years drawing down the capital .  woo hoo !
 
When social security kicks in at 67 i'll need 25% - 50% less income from the stash by that time compounding should be taking off and will receive a supercharge due to social security income.   


NV Teacher

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2017, 01:51:35 PM »
I have a LTC policy, a generous pension, savings, and investments.  Hopefully it will be enough to cover my living costs when that time comes.

ltt

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2017, 02:00:28 PM »
We are not....I think there was a thread here or on another forum where people were mentioning that the payout was minimal in relation to the premuims paid?  The vast majority of people simply cannot afford to plan for everything.

albireo13

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2017, 02:02:27 PM »
I had not thought of LTC insurance.  I'll look into that.




rockeTree

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plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2017, 03:17:13 PM »
I am a ways out but my rough cut at this is not including SS in calcs at all and assuming all of that is for health costs/savings for ltc if needed.


Can't imagine the current LTC insurance programs making it through the end of life phase for the boomers :-/

Sibley

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2017, 03:54:28 PM »
Assisted living is in my calculations... for my parents. Namely, me. I'm buying a house (close in May), and in choosing a house I've made sure that I can accommodate my parents. Due to health/dementia, I'm estimating that they'll be moving in with me in the next 5 years.

Assisted living is expensive. Nursing homes are a lot more expensive. Staying in the home with someone living with you and possibly additional help is less expensive. Dying before this becomes an issue is the cheapest option.

scottish

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2017, 03:59:35 PM »
Dementia runs on both sides of my family.   My (slightly facetious) plan is to either fall off of a mountain, crash a motorcycle or die skydiving before that happens to me.

Prob of success isn't good though.   My mother had a similar plan and it didn't work for her.   Now she's stuck in a wheelchair in a nursing home and she doesn't know who any of us are.

This whole thing is a bad scene.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2017, 04:58:06 PM »
If you're moving into a nursing home, then you don't exactly need the family home anymore so selling that would one of a range of "last resort" options.
I know I'm being argumentative, but consider this quite realistic situations: 

One spouse suffers a stroke and needs nursing home care ... the other spouse is still moderately healthy.  The healthy spouse still needs the house. 

One spouse becomes sick, and the couple sells the house ... the sick spouse dies, leaving the younger /healthier spouse still in need of housing and without a nest egg for his or her own future.  Realistically, the second spouse needs more money than the first.

In my family, I AM the younger and healthier spouse, so, yes, I've thought about this quite a bit.  Our plan:

- We are building a designed-for-aging-in-place house for our retirement.  We're building a house without steps, with a no-barrier walk-in shower, wide hallways, laundry adjacent to the master bedroom, etc.  No, these things won't mean we're safe from the ravages of aging, but they will make it easier for us to manage in our own house for a longer time.

- We are including a second master bedroom in our retirement house.  This means that one of our children (or future grandchildren or a paid caregiver) could move in with us.  A whole lot of elderly people can manage on their own, if they have someone available to do the heavy cleaning and driving -- doesn't have to be a full-time helper.  By including a second master, it'd be easier to bring someone in ... I know that our pastor has "put together" young single mothers and elderly ladies several times ... the elderly lady provides free housing, and the younger woman helps out with the "heavy lifting".  A win-win for both parties. 

- Home health care can be a great thing.  My now-RN daughter did this during the summers while she was in college.  She'd go into people's homes, and she did whatever they needed:  The single thing she helped with most was bathing and personal hygiene, but she also did light cleaning, changing of sheets, meal prep.  For the elderly person who can get by with a little help, this is much more affordable than a nursing home or assisted living.

- In my own family, realistically, I'll be around to take care of my husband (assuming he doesn't need skilled nursing care), but I'll be on my own.  If my children are nearby, that'll be a positive.  If not, my nest egg should pay for help in the house. 

aceyou

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2017, 05:19:32 PM »
in general the 4% rule allows money to grow exponentially.  outside of retiring in a few bad years you will have piles left at the end of your life. 

I actually have been thinking about this recently and what/how to even include this in calculations.  My Grandparents are reaching this point and i've been made aware of the costs thru conversation with my father. They are quite large. 

So my plan is to have half a plan.  with the following things in mind

1. I like making money, when i quit my corporate job i will likely continue making money doing random things that involve little to no effort
2. As stated above the 4% rule grows money exponentially.  If you really want it to grow exponentially use a variable spending method ... i plan to only used variable spending for downside protection the first 5-10 years and not increase my withdrawals based on what it says.  i plan to use a floor 10% less than current with no cap on the max side.  This will likely - based on historic cases make our money grow into piles of cash. 

so am i planning for it dollar for dollar. no but do i have some flexibility in my plans that will likely allow for this if needed.  Yes. projecting the sequence of returns over 50 years is impossible to do and thats where the risk really lies, so using the flexibility above i think we'll have plenty left to cover our costs if this is needed.

This is basically how I'm thinking about it. 

neverrun

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2017, 06:44:50 PM »
I personally take them into account, but many here seem to feel that taking a medicare nursing home option will be sufficient.  I feel many here underestimate health care costs in later life as well

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2017, 08:28:10 PM »
I was thinking at the time that hiring some people on your own and having a Golden Girls type of boarding house might be much more cost effective.

I am so in on the Golden Girl house! This made me laugh out loud when I read it ;D 

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2017, 05:31:57 AM »
in general the 4% rule allows money to grow exponentially.  outside of retiring in a few bad years you will have piles left at the end of your life. 

I actually have been thinking about this recently and what/how to even include this in calculations.  My Grandparents are reaching this point and i've been made aware of the costs thru conversation with my father. They are quite large. 

So my plan is to have half a plan.  with the following things in mind

1. I like making money, when i quit my corporate job i will likely continue making money doing random things that involve little to no effort
2. As stated above the 4% rule grows money exponentially.  If you really want it to grow exponentially use a variable spending method ... i plan to only used variable spending for downside protection the first 5-10 years and not increase my withdrawals based on what it says.  i plan to use a floor 10% less than current with no cap on the max side.  This will likely - based on historic cases make our money grow into piles of cash. 

so am i planning for it dollar for dollar. no but do i have some flexibility in my plans that will likely allow for this if needed.  Yes. projecting the sequence of returns over 50 years is impossible to do and thats where the risk really lies, so using the flexibility above i think we'll have plenty left to cover our costs if this is needed.

This is basically how I'm thinking about it.

thanks i wondered if anyone read what i wrote.
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ooeei

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 06:39:37 AM »

I know I'm being argumentative, but consider this quite realistic situations: 

One spouse suffers a stroke and needs nursing home care ... the other spouse is still moderately healthy.  The healthy spouse still needs the house. 

This is exactly the situation my girlfriend's family is in.  The amount of care her dad needs is ~$6000/month in what I'd call a medium cost of living area.  The mom still lives at home, and luckily is young enough to have a job.  We're currently working with a law office to rearrange some assets in order to qualify for Medicaid to take over the dad's payments, while not losing all of their savings.

One thing to note, at least in TX, is that having your money in IRA/401k accounts helps quite a bit as far as Medicaid is concerned.  It's much easier to "shield" it from calculations if it's in a retirement account.  Also make sure to have a proper will drawn up (including a living will), and put all of your account info somewhere you can both access, when possible giving authorizations to each other.  Putting beneficiaries on accounts is critical as well, as not having a beneficiary means the account goes to your estate, which may have debts to settle before your heirs get anything.

These are all things I've been learning by seeing a few family members go through these sorts of situations.  It always sucks, but it sucks way more if you haven't planned properly for it and lose out on years of accumulated money due to simple mistakes.

This is actually one place I would recommend spending some money on a good elder lawyer, preferably before you need one.  There are lots of things they will be able to advise you on that can save a lot of trouble down the road, and many of those things just aren't what young healthy people would ever think of.  For example, the lawyer suggested that my girlfriend's dad can pay for health insurance before his income is garnished by Medicaid.  Basically Medicaid is taking all of his income either way, but if he buys insurance they still just take all his income.  Free insurance!  That's something I never would have even considered had we not talked to the lawyer, and will almost certainly save the family $ down the line.

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2017, 07:19:11 AM »
another thing to think about here in addition to my previous comment is, when costs start to run rampant as they will for the boomer generation, the govt will see the issue and step in and subsidize it.  not saying thats a guarantee but just like SSA came about and the healthcare market is changing.  The rise of the machines and AI will tend towards lower costs which will tend towards lower jobs which will tend towards universal income of some kind.  in 50 years the landscape around all of this will be much different. 
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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2017, 07:40:09 AM »
I've said it before somewhere on these forums, I think, that my vision for all the McMansions out there is that they eventually could become group homes for seniors. There's often a master bedroom on the first floor that could be a caregiver's suite. Throw in a moving chair for the staircase and three or four seniors could live on the second floor. With multiple living areas, large kitchens, and sometimes a separate study, these large homes could easily accommodate a small group of aging-in-place people with a live-in caregiver.

So Golden Girls, it is!

ooeei

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2017, 07:50:02 AM »
another thing to think about here in addition to my previous comment is, when costs start to run rampant as they will for the boomer generation, the govt will see the issue and step in and subsidize it.  not saying thats a guarantee but just like SSA came about and the healthcare market is changing.  The rise of the machines and AI will tend towards lower costs which will tend towards lower jobs which will tend towards universal income of some kind.  in 50 years the landscape around all of this will be much different.

The government already subsidizes it through Medicaid.  The problem is you only get Medicaid if you have less than $2000 to your name, so you're required to spend down your money until you get to that point before they'll start helping.  There are a lot of complicated rules and exceptions to this, especially if one spouse needs the help but the other doesn't, but at a base level that's how it works and will likely continue to work.

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2017, 07:57:29 AM »
another thing to think about here in addition to my previous comment is, when costs start to run rampant as they will for the boomer generation, the govt will see the issue and step in and subsidize it.  not saying thats a guarantee but just like SSA came about and the healthcare market is changing.  The rise of the machines and AI will tend towards lower costs which will tend towards lower jobs which will tend towards universal income of some kind.  in 50 years the landscape around all of this will be much different.

The government already subsidizes it through Medicaid.  The problem is you only get Medicaid if you have less than $2000 to your name, so you're required to spend down your money until you get to that point before they'll start helping.  There are a lot of complicated rules and exceptions to this, especially if one spouse needs the help but the other doesn't, but at a base level that's how it works and will likely continue to work.

i dont think anyone can predict what it will look like in 50 years.  all assitance could be done by govt provided robots for the assisted living facilities.  tech plus the rapidly rising costs will cause change to happen rapidly.
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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2017, 08:08:50 AM »
another thing to think about here in addition to my previous comment is, when costs start to run rampant as they will for the boomer generation, the govt will see the issue and step in and subsidize it.  not saying thats a guarantee but just like SSA came about and the healthcare market is changing.  The rise of the machines and AI will tend towards lower costs which will tend towards lower jobs which will tend towards universal income of some kind.  in 50 years the landscape around all of this will be much different.

The government already subsidizes it through Medicaid.  The problem is you only get Medicaid if you have less than $2000 to your name, so you're required to spend down your money until you get to that point before they'll start helping.  There are a lot of complicated rules and exceptions to this, especially if one spouse needs the help but the other doesn't, but at a base level that's how it works and will likely continue to work.

Right, and while they can't take the house while the other spouse is living in it, and they need to leave a portion of the assets for that person to live on, in many cases, the solution (albeit a drastic one) is divorce.  In this way the assets can be shielded.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2017, 08:04:48 AM »
It's certainly something I have thought about, especially as I sell LTC insurance, but haven't planned for yet.  I know assisted living and nursing home costs can be pretty high so it is a question of whether we would have enough assets to self insure or if we should supplement with LTC insurance.  If I went the LTC route I would likely look at a shorter benefit period (2 years) but with a decent monthly benefit and a shared care policy (where you can access your spouses benefit if needed).  I figure with a smaller benefit we would be easily be able to self insure any balance with our assets but still have some protection since costs can be high.  I will say it is a little harder to plan when we could have so many more years in retirement planned than the average person.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2017, 05:22:10 AM »
As for me, single and childless with no relatives but sister my age, I'll probably go with the Smith and Wesson plan if ever needed. 

I seriously believe that within the next twenty years more American states will put "death with dignity" laws into place because the boomer suicide rate is going to skyrocket.  I'm a firm believer in quality of life, and having to have someone wipe my ass or feed me isn't my idea of quality.  I don't think I could blow my brains out, but there's definitely other ways.   
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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2017, 06:14:30 AM »
One of the best investment you can make in yourself is time spent with an elder care attorney.

Someone mentioned a will which works great after you die.  Before you die, you might want to have a living trust.  If you have substantial assets an irrevocable living trust can work great.  If anyone feels bad about trying to go directly to Medicaid whole preserving their own assets just remember that Medicaid is funded from the general tax fund and you all have (presumably) paid these taxes all your working lives. 

Work smarter not harder; in all things.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2017, 06:35:02 AM »
LTC is built into my calculation. I plan extra money for vacations and fun things that go away when I will need LTC. I plan on no SS since I will retire way before I start collecting it. Those two items alone will cover all my LTC needs.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2017, 10:50:32 AM »
Ideally we'll retire in a good year and have accumulated enough assets and home appreciation to take care of it along with social security and my pension. If not, my hubby's 10 years older than me, so I'm guessing odds are I'll end up taking care of him at home as long as possible. Once I need that kind of care for myself I'll be on my own, in which case they can take all my money and I'll end up on medicare/medicaid.

Everything I've seen and read about LTC insurance makes me think it is a bum deal, with ever increasing premiums for minimal benefits. If I had kids I'd probably be more conservative as I would never want to put them in a position where they felt obligated to care for me, but I don't.

I spent 9 years volunteering at all kinds of different retirement homes, nursing homes, assisted living centers, memory care wards, etc, that have run the gamut from beach front property in La Jolla to run down crap holes in the shittiest parts of town. From what I could tell, once you're that far down the road of dementia you won't know the difference. I saw so many people who were just empty husks of humanity who had no idea what was going on - they were usually barely conscious or totally confused and scared for the few moments they were awake.

If the choice came down to me living for years with dementia or severely disabled from a stroke or whatever, but my healthy husband going broke to afford my care, I'd really hope someone did me the courtesy of a generous dose of morphine.

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »
These are all things I've been learning by seeing a few family members go through these sorts of situations.  It always sucks, but it sucks way more if you haven't planned properly for it and lose out on years of accumulated money due to simple mistakes.
At a glance, I'd bet the most common "simple mistake" is failure to consider the problem ... until it's upon you.  Perhaps people don't want to face the fact that -- if God allows them the years -- they really will become elderly at some point. 
I've said it before somewhere on these forums, I think, that my vision for all the McMansions out there is that they eventually could become group homes for seniors. There's often a master bedroom on the first floor that could be a caregiver's suite. Throw in a moving chair for the staircase and three or four seniors could live on the second floor. With multiple living areas, large kitchens, and sometimes a separate study, these large homes could easily accommodate a small group of aging-in-place people with a live-in caregiver.

So Golden Girls, it is!
That's a great plan.  It's kind of like Foster Care ... but for seniors with modest means.  It could even be a business:  Buy a couple McMansions, hire a caretaker for each.  The caretaker would be able to stock food and do the cleaning ... and still have time to be a college student or work part-time elsewhere, and room/board would be a portion of the caretaker's compensation.   

boarder42

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Re: plan for assisted living in your calculations??
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2017, 11:48:00 AM »
i knew i owned a mcmansion for a reason. 
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